Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Misyrr 04-01-04, 07:32 PM	I found no notes on taxation in the FRCS besides that it does in fact happen. Has there ever been much mention of this in any Realms material? How much and how often would a commoner in Highmoon (Deepingdale) pay taxes? What about the merchants there? How is this determined?
Dirk_Nightbreese 04-01-04, 09:34 PM	Well, I think one should look at tithes as taxes. Aren't goods usually given as "taxes". Most of the Heartlands are under a kind of Feudal system, right? So this fictional commoner would pay taxes depending on their situation. I mean, are they freeholder? Or working someone else's land? In Deepingdale most are freeholders. Also, when talking about an Urban setting (Highmoon) I would think there would be more coin exchanging hands and that residents would need to pay taxes for city services. That is to say, a lord or leader needs money to run the town, to keep people safe etc. Interestingly, the Dales usually raise militias, but even so, and this is strictly urban related, there needs to be some form of law and order in constant effect. I guess the short answers are: No, I haven't seen anything specifically about taxes, but the FRCS has a section on the class system, which might shed some light; a commoner in Highmoon would probably make either seasonal or annual tithes to the Government there, paying an amount set on how much property or inventory one owns; merchants would pay about the same because they are migratory, though a local merchant would pay depending on their inventory; I would say leaders and tradition usually dictact how much one gives, i.e. "My ancestors paid your ancestors this amount, yadda, yadda, yadda". Wow, this just makes me think about my taxes, how depressing. hope that helps ~Dirk Nightbreese, the Shadow of Daggerdale
Crispus_Lyons 04-02-04, 01:22 PM	Another thing to consider is that in most feudal kingdoms the King owns -all- the land. The king can give land grants to lesser lords (Dukes, Counts, etc) and then they can micromanage the land and issue taxes to those living on their gifted land. They have to kick up to the King, but they can still make a relatively good living off of their populace. So that means if a town lies under the control of a democratically elected mayor, that mayor collects the taxes for the Duke, who in turn gives the money to the King. As for how much, I haven't a clue, but land 'owners' probably pay a lot more than roaming adventures do. Most PCs won't have anything to tie them down, so they probably just have to pay entrance fees to cities and transportation taxes. If this helps, it states in the PHB that a menial worker like a day laborer makes 1 silver piece a day, so the taxes are probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3 silvers a month (7-10 percent of their total wages). But that would be in a city, in the country, as Dirk said, they'd probably take a percentage of the person's goods. Simply put, unless the characters have land (or there are really aggressive tax collecters) most adventurers live tax free. ~C.L.
Faraer 04-02-04, 01:32 PM	No, few if any lands of the Realms are feudal; Cormyr, for instance, certainly isn't. Faerūnian peasants are freemen, not serfs. Most places have annual taxes plus spot fees. One exception is Waterdeep, which charges fees and occasional taxes only, as discussed in the City of Splendors Campaign Guide, p. 32. There's more tax lore elsewhere but it would be a job to gather it. Cormyr's charging for adventurers' charters is probably not the only effective tax on adventuring companies.
Dirk_Nightbreese 04-02-04, 01:36 PM	I agree with C. L. on everything he had to say, accept one thing. I believe that feudal kings didn't actually own the land their nobles were on. I believe the King was just in fact a very powerful noble who held the oaths and fealty of the other nobles. This allowed the king to call his retainers to war and get some of their money/goods as taxes/tithes. In fact, one big social struggle during the Fuedal periord was noblility vs king. The King wanted more power over the nobles and the Nobles wanted more autonomy. This is the reason for the Magna Carta, when the English pulled a fast one when King Richard was out cementing Christian's right to Holy War, as well as the reason that Germany wasn't unified till the early 17th century, due to all the Princepalities that had in effect made themselves into Mirco nations. Also, at least in the Dales, the above doesn't really take effect cause there are so MANY freeholders who take care of themselves, though ally for mutal defense when needed. But, in regards to players paying taxes, just hope you never draw the 18 CHA and Small Keep card from a deck of many things, then you have to start paying taxes and it sucks.
druid berrymore 04-02-04, 01:52 PM	Originally posted by Faraer No, few if any lands of the Realms are feudal; Cormyr, for instance, certainly isn't. Faer?ian peasants are freemen, not serfs. Most places have annual taxes plus spot fees. One exception is Waterdeep, which charges fees and occasional taxes only, as discussed in the City of Splendors Campaign Guide, p. 32. There's more tax lore elsewhere but it would be a job to gather it. Cormyr's charging for adventurers' charters is probably not the only effective tax on adventuring companies. Thanks, Faraer. I was wondering about this a while ago too.
Faraer 04-02-04, 02:19 PM	Well, here's the situation. The Life in Faerūn chapter of the FRCS does claim that the most common form of government is feudal monarchies, and refers to serfs (though it goes on to say that most peasants aren't bound to the land they work). But no other source has any mention of fief-working serfs, or any of the terminology of feudalism or the manor system. So what do you think? I think the chapter must be in error, and it certainly has other problems, like claiming out of the blue that people call nobles 'Saer' (which I'm told is just a local practice somewhere I forget). But something to ask Ed about later in this month.
ender 04-04-04, 05:21 AM	I have no strong evidence for this; it is largely speculation. Based on various things that I have read (most of the sources escape me, but for some reason "Halls of Stormweather" springs to mind), it seems that many parts of Faerun are run like mercantile states, rather than feudal ones. Which is to say, land is individually owned and governments draw their revenue by taxing trade. The scene is "Stormweather" involved Tamlin's trade negotiations with a rival house for control over the taxation of goods that passed through Selgaunt's gates. This suggests a mercantile-ish setup wherein taxes come from various tariffs that merchants have to pay. No doubt most citizens have to pay some form of taxes (and Crispus_Lyons' suggestion seems very reasonable), but I really don't see many parts of Faerun as having a Feudal economy. Feudal states are generally highly insular, mostly ignoring foreign powers for reasons other than conquest. Faerun, on the contrary, has a very sophisticated trade network that criss-crosses the entire continent (FRCS 100-101). If we are to makee analogies with historical earth (which is misleading for obvious reasons, but is still the best we can do), this is much more like the economic networks of the 1500-1600s, rather than the feudal era.
dragonheart 04-04-04, 08:43 PM	whether feudal or mercantile yes taxes exist and they are higher thatn you might expect - not 10% but between 35 snd 50 % - you don't think so? as you do your taxes this year add up all the federal, state, local and social security you pay as well all the money you donated to your church ( the tithe is supposed to be 10%), as well as all you purchased and teh taxes you payed on those items. then add in things like adventures fees, etc. I use taxes to strip off all those extra GP my players think they are getting :D In a mercantile setting the taxes are probably a bit on the lower end (30-40%) while in a feudal setting they may be considerably higher (4-70%). Entry fees, exit fees, money changing fees, head taxes, market fees, land taxes, import tariffs, export tariffs, license fees, sales taxes, stamp taxes, tea taxes, etc. they should be taxing it and probably were taxing it. It may not have said it was a tax but if it looks like a tax, acts like tax and takes money out of the character's pockets like a tax then by golly it must be a tax :behold:
ender 04-05-04, 04:23 AM	I heartily disagree, dragonheart. (In a friendly manner, of course :)) First, I don't see a tithe operating anywhere other than single-deity theocracies, and those are pretty rare in a polytheistic faerun. That's a big chunk (10%, as you correctly noted) right there. As for the other taxes, I think it is important to understand how these pre-modern economies worked. Feudal states did not get their revenue (by and large) by taxes, but by tribute: both from their vassal lords and from external powers that they threatened in some manner. It was the lord's responsibility to pay tribute to the king, generally in the form of armed and trained soldiers rather than in a monetary form. These lords, in turn, demanded tribute from their sub-vassals, on down to the peasants. This is important though: the peasants didn't pay their local lord in currency, but in food and labor. The medieval economy was remarkably lacking in currency, and what little there was did not often get taxed. Attempts to do so were resisted with ferocity. As an example, Richard II imposed a tax of one shilling per head (annually!) in 1380 and it sparked a peasant rebellion. Certain elements of society, such as actors and gypsies, were pretty much invisible to this system of collection, which is why they were seen as destabilizing (and therefore undesirable) elements of society. Adventurers seem like they would fall into this social category, which is probably why, in a fantasy world, they are so often seen as destabilizing/undesirable elements in many locales. Mercantile economies, while very different, missed just as many elements of the population. As I said earlier, they concentrated on taxing trade, and in many cases simply by controlling prices, and therefore maximizing profitability, by monopolizing the trade itself (Zhentarim anyone? :)). Since in most mercantile economies the most important companies were owned, in whole or in part, by the governments themselves (such as the English and Dutch East India Companies), there was no need for direct taxation--revenue came from company profits. In these economies, too, all the important revenue came from high-level sources, so for the most part commoners were left to their own devices, with maybe some token taxes for city services, etc). The high tax rates upwards of 40% were not common until modern times, when the appearance of a large middle class made it worthwhile to tax them. Sorry for that whole essay, there. :) After saying all that, though, I agree with dragonheart that it a wonderfully cruel DM pleasure to tax your PC's plundered gains, watching them squirm and simmer, knowing that there's no way they can get around paying them short of full-scale revolt. :devil:
Klyden 04-05-04, 07:25 AM	I think it's safe to say that being a serf in the Middle Ages of Earth's timeline sucked out loud.
Noel 04-06-04, 12:54 AM	The ways revenue was collected historically are many and varied. Tribute: by crushing a rival city and collecting a regular payment not to hurt them any more Trade Monopoly: Government controlling all trade in a valuable commodity ( such as owning the salt mine and all salt being sold at fixed prices / no imports etc ). Most Common: was to control movement of food into cities to raise food prices in the city ( supply/demand) and sell the food grown on the nearby nobles land at great profit. Larger cities tended to have thier own land and try and stop this practice. Aid: During times of difficulty asking for the wealthy to provide set amounts based upon what they are worth ( mabee 2-3%) as a one off. From vassals: Payment from vassals as part of their holding land you have granted them. From peasants: Generally a tax in grain ( 10% or so although in times of famine this was oftern not collected). My opinion but taxing adventurers seems about as wise as taxing the local red dragon, easier to tax the things they buy or have monopolies on them ( arms, gems, magic components etc) rather than risking their displeasure.
dragonheart 04-06-04, 10:27 AM	I heartily disagree, dragonheart. (In a friendly manner, of course ) not a problem freindly disagreements are fun and lead to good discusions not flame wars :) First, I don't see a tithe operating anywhere other than single-deity theocracies, and those are pretty rare in a polytheistic faerun. That's a big chunk (10%, as you correctly noted) right there. Actually I can see it as being even more essential in a semi polytheistic area like Faerun - "prove" your faith by donating to the church of your god. After all how are these magnificent temples being built? have you ever tried to stat out the costs? without some major source of income no faith could build one and where are tehy going to get the income except from the pockets of the faithful (yes they sell a few potions, holy water and healings but this isn't goi9ng to cover more than the upkeep of a few preists) The high tax rates upwards of 40% were not common until modern times, when the appearance of a large middle class made it worthwhile to tax them. Actually it looks like faerun does have a fairly large "middle class" or at least a freeman farmer/artisan class so this is not inappropriate. you are right in that coinage was rare in European history but again it is much less rare in Faerun so monetary taxes are probably more common. and one point I was hoping to make was just beacuse its not called a tax doesn't mean that it isn't in fact a tax even if it brings something other than coin in. Taxes "in kind" have kept many a realm wealthy through resale/trade wiht other realms. My main point was that the level of removal of wealth by the authorities was likely to be much higher than we often run and that the same aught to be true in Faerun - things like a "treasure trove" law that requires 25% of any found treasures to be turned over to the authorities (or risk confiscation of it all for failure to pay the "tax")
Ssussunriyh 04-06-04, 10:39 AM	Wandering adventurers might have to pay something like a "salvage tax." Say, here comes the mighty dragon-slayer swaggering into town, dripping with gold and gems (how foolish of him to display his newly-acquired wealth so openly!), and the local lord decrees "That treasure was found on my land / plundered from my subjects, so you have to pay me X percentage of it, or else be banished from this realm forthwith."
ethicalsean 04-06-04, 12:50 PM	Wandering adventurers might have to pay something like a "salvage tax." Say, here comes the mighty dragon-slayer swaggering into town, dripping with gold and gems (how foolish of him to display his newly-acquired wealth so openly!), and the local lord decrees "That treasure was found on my land / plundered from my subjects, so you have to pay me X percentage of it, or else be banished from this realm forthwith." *roll initiative* ( 5 minutes later ) Thats Lord mighty dragon slayer to the rest of you!
Ssussunriyh 04-06-04, 01:14 PM	Brilliant... How to Lose Friends & Infuriate People, Lesson One. Now, depending on how well-liked the local Lord was, and who HE swore fealty to, you may have a mob of angry townsfolk and possibly an army to deal with... "He ticked me off" is not a justifiable excuse for cold-blooded murder, in case you hadn't heard.
Crispus_Lyons 04-06-04, 03:55 PM	For all y'all Americans out there (over 18) I thought I'd just give you a healthy head's up that your own personal taxes are due in less than ten days! Puts things in a little more appropriate perspective, neh? ~C.L.
ethicalsean 04-06-04, 04:17 PM	Brilliant... How to Lose Friends & Infuriate People, Lesson One. Now, depending on how well-liked the local Lord was, and who HE swore fealty to, you may have a mob of angry townsfolk and possibly an army to deal with... "He ticked me off" is not a justifiable excuse for cold-blooded murder, in case you hadn't heard. Yes, brilliant indeed, an idea that "inferiorates" your players for sucking them of their hard earned cash after they come scraped and beaten from the local dragon's nest (does the dragon pay taxes to the feudal lord too, or just terrorize his lands? bah.. tax the PCs regardless!) I think you miss the point though, if any ole person waddles into this Lord's lands (after destroying something thats been terrorizing the area even though as we all know dragons typically don't do that) and are approached by the tax collector (or in this case, DM train tracks to alleviate loot)... I really wonder how well liked this feudal lord is to begin with. I know when I kill a dragon in civilized lands, the first thing the local authorities ask of me is to pay them their cut! I can only imagine what this "beloved" lord is taking from his own citizens. Untouchable NPCs and Tyrannic rule (with a ghastly tax code) is no excuse for bad DMing! :D
ender 04-06-04, 04:52 PM	Originally posted by dragonheart Actually I can see it as being even more essential in a semi polytheistic area like Faerun - "prove" your faith by donating to the church of your god. After all how are these magnificent temples being built? have you ever tried to stat out the costs? without some major source of income no faith could build one and where are tehy going to get the income except from the pockets of the faithful (yes they sell a few potions, holy water and healings but this isn't goi9ng to cover more than the upkeep of a few preists) You make a good point. I was thinking in terms of "tithing" as a state-mandated religious tax, which I still hold won't work in most areas. I agree, though, that most religions would probably institute a similar kind of tax and apply it to their flock o' faithful. :) My main point was that the level of removal of wealth by the authorities was likely to be much higher than we often run and that the same aught to be true in Faerun - things like a "treasure trove" law that requires 25% of any found treasures to be turned over to the authorities (or risk confiscation of it all for failure to pay the "tax") I'm still not sure about the general level of taxation, but the "treasure trove" law has interesting possibilities. In a place like Faerun, where freebooting, troublemaking adventurers are relatively common, it doesn't seem unreasonable (to the taxmen, anyway :)) for the local polity to have tax codes specifically targeting adventurers. With all the conflicts and sanguinary goodness that previous posters have mentioned. :devil:
ender 04-06-04, 04:55 PM	I really wish they would allow you to delete your own double posts. :)
Ssussunriyh 04-06-04, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by ethicalsean Yes, brilliant indeed, an idea that "inferiorates" your players for sucking them of their hard earned cash after they come scraped and beaten from the local dragon's nest (does the dragon pay taxes to the feudal lord too, or just terrorize his lands? bah.. tax the PCs regardless!) I think you miss the point though, if any ole person waddles into this Lord's lands (after destroying something thats been terrorizing the area even though as we all know dragons typically don't do that) and are approached by the tax collector (or in this case, DM train tracks to alleviate loot)... I really wonder how well liked this feudal lord is to begin with. I know when I kill a dragon in civilized lands, the first thing the local authorities ask of me is to pay them their cut! I can only imagine what this "beloved" lord is taking from his own citizens. Untouchable NPCs and Tyrannic rule (with a ghastly tax code) is no excuse for bad DMing! :D I hate it when people put words in my mouth...:headexplo Sure, the tax collector may come off as a monumental jerk and be the most despised man in the land, but the fact remains that in most feudal lands they still have a "Lord's Share" or an "Adventurers' Charter Fee" amounting to a percentage of any loot (10% or so in most cases - hardly a trip to the cleaners.) And the above poster's solution to immediately "lop off 'is 'ead" is a very foolish way to deal with the situation. Who knows how that tax money would be used? It's not kosher to assume that it would automatically go toward fattening the Lord's pouch. It might go toward relief for the families who have suffered at the dragon's hands (claws, teeth, breath weapon, etc.) Imagine, if you will, townsfolk who have been plagued by the dragon for years, their herds stolen, their caravans plundered, their maidens carried off and devoured, unable to deal with it themselves because they lack the skill and resources to do so, to suddenly see this swaggering sword-swinger packing up the hoard and preparing to cart it off to god-knows-where. Then, when the legal authority claims recompense, his answer is to whack the guy. Makes you wonder if the cure is any better than the disease...
ethicalsean 04-06-04, 07:20 PM	Sure, the tax collector may come off as a monumental jerk and be the most despised man in the land, but the fact remains that in most feudal lands they still have a "Lord's Share" or an "Adventurers' Charter Fee" amounting to a percentage of any loot (10% or so in most cases - hardly a trip to the cleaners.) Really? What sourcebook would that be? And the above poster's solution to immediately "lop off 'is 'ead" is a very foolish way to deal with the situation. Who knows how that tax money would be used? It's not kosher to assume that it would automatically go toward fattening the Lord's pouch. It might go toward relief for the families who have suffered at the dragon's hands (claws, teeth, breath weapon, etc) What, and the DM using an npc to hit up the players the second they "foolishly walk into town" is not handling the situation poorly? Its called railroading... (pc got too much money... lets get the untouchable haughty npc to take them down a notch this session!) Heres a better situation that could have that same effect instead of obviously railroading your pcs to help the less fortunate... give them the option to donate money to the less fortunate... instead of being confronted by a tax collector who will summarily take what is theirs because the dm says hes working for the man. Now I've heard of everything... the benevolent feudal welfare state... :) Imagine, if you will, townsfolk who have been plagued by the dragon for years, their herds stolen, their caravans plundered, their maidens carried off and devoured, unable to deal with it themselves because they lack the skill and resources to do so, to suddenly see this swaggering sword-swinger packing up the hoard and preparing to cart it off to god-knows-where. Then, when the legal authority claims recompense, his answer is to whack the guy. Makes you wonder if the cure is any better than the disease... Yes, I mean, if I had just been asked/hired/begged to go jump a big bad dragon ravaging the land (possibly by this same scrooge of a feudal lord we speak of) and then after doing the dirty work get slapped with a bill... why dont I read of this more in fantasy literature? All I gotta do is setup a castle, buy some "peasants" from the Red Wizards... find an unspeakable horror who'll sign a long term contract into luring silly adventurers to their deaths... and if they do survive the gauntlet... I've got the law on my side!
Ssussunriyh 04-06-04, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by ethicalsean Really? What sourcebook would that be? Silver Marches, regarding Sundabar. The notion of a salvage tax was also in the 1E DMG. And the manure is getting a bit too deep in here for me, so I think I shall exit, stage left.
ender 04-07-04, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by ethicalsean What, and the DM using an npc to hit up the players the second they "foolishly walk into town" is not handling the situation poorly? Its called railroading... (pc got too much money... lets get the untouchable haughty npc to take them down a notch this session!) I think you misunderstand the term "railroading." In general, the term refers to a DM forcing the players along a linear plot without regard to their input. This is often used to describe plots that careen forward no matter how clever or inventive the players are, or in total disregard of their desires (both the players and the characters). Taxes, then, do not count as railroading. The players have plenty of options when faced with the tax collector. They can kill him out of hand (as has been enthusiastically suggested above :)), bribe him, charm him, evade him, swindle him, co-opt him, discredit him, incite rebellion against him... there are tons of possibilities. His mere existence is not, even slightly, railroading; in fact, one might argue that if he didn't come along to try to get his cut it would be a serious breach of realism on the DM's part--taxes are, after all, the only thing other than death that you cannot avoid. Yes, I mean, if I had just been asked/hired/begged to go jump a big bad dragon ravaging the land (possibly by this same scrooge of a feudal lord we speak of) and then after doing the dirty work get slapped with a bill... why dont I read of this more in fantasy literature? All I gotta do is setup a castle, buy some "peasants" from the Red Wizards... find an unspeakable horror who'll sign a long term contract into luring silly adventurers to their deaths... and if they do survive the gauntlet... I've got the law on my side! Actually, I'd be surprised if no one in Faerun hasn't been doing this. The plot of a patron hiring group X to go do a dirty job, then turning around and screwing them (via betrayal, attack, discrediting them, etc) is practically a cliche in fantasy literature. As well as in published FR material: for example, UE (p. 168) refers to Tharchion Metron in Thay who has been extorting adventurers in a very similar manner, sending patrols to the ruins of Delhumide to accost adventurers (weakened and laden with booty) and relieve them of their gains. And she is the law. As to archetypes from fantasy literature, how's Tolkien? Remember the Battle of Five Armies? Not an identical situation, mind you (although it did involve a slain dragon and his treasure). When you're talking about that much money, in a place that is rich in history, there are going to be several factions who want their cut. This does not necessarily make them (Bard of Esgaroth, for example) "scrooges"; they just want their fair due.
Ssussunriyh 04-07-04, 11:25 AM	:tiphat: Ender, I thank you for your support, and I praise you for your eloquence.
ethicalsean 04-07-04, 12:43 PM	Silver Marches, regarding Sundabar. The notion of a salvage tax was also in the 1E DMG. And the manure is getting a bit too deep in here for me, so I think I shall exit, stage left. Thats a contractual labor agreement. You go in for a job interview in Sundabar, and they tell you what you do and your obligations are as an employee of their state. It has nothing to do with an adventurer walking in with his hard earned loot and randomly being accosted by npcs who are literal untouchable if you don't give into them. I think you misunderstand the term "railroading." In general, the term refers to a DM forcing the players along a linear plot without regard to their input. This is often used to describe plots that careen forward no matter how clever or inventive the players are, or in total disregard of their desires (both the players and the characters). What was described was precisely railroading. You randomly walk into town, and are told you need to pay a tax (do you even live in this land?). If you do anything to hedge out DM authority, you will be accosted by higher level npcs and the towns people most likely will blindly attack you too. Now what was suggested was what that money went to. You really had no choice in whether it was for good or evil... you were being made to pay anyway. Now the solution to alleviating the gold would have been giving the players their own choice to donate to the victims or not. Taxes, then, do not count as railroading. The players have plenty of options when faced with the tax collector. They can kill him out of hand (as has been enthusiastically suggested above ), bribe him, charm him, evade him, swindle him, co-opt him, discredit him, incite rebellion against him... there are tons of possibilities. His mere existence is not, even slightly, railroading; in fact, one might argue that if he didn't come along to try to get his cut it would be a serious breach of realism on the DM's part--taxes are, after all, the only thing other than death that you cannot avoid. I think its a breach of realism to walk into an average fuedal town and find a tax collector eyeing you down oblivious to where you received your possessions or whether you are any sort of citizen of the lands you entered. Much less any good aligned Lord who cares about dealing with the local dragon going so far to demand to adventurers that he wants some too. I think if this were true, it would be pronounced in the sources much more. Thats just me and my group though (and I must admit I play with many a rogue, dwarf, and independant sorcerer). Actually, I'd be surprised if no one in Faerun hasn't been doing this. The plot of a patron hiring group X to go do a dirty job, then turning around and screwing them (via betrayal, attack, discrediting them, etc) is practically a cliche in fantasy literature. As well as in published FR material: for example, UE (p. 168) refers to Tharchion Metron in Thay who has been extorting adventurers in a very similar manner, sending patrols to the ruins of Delhumide to accost adventurers (weakened and laden with booty) and relieve them of their gains. And she is the law. My hats off to the Thayans for proving once again theyre more then a magic Wal-Mart... but page 168 has nothing to do with taxation... you're talking about a coersed "contractual" slavery between Metron and the adventurers... and well, slavery and Thay are like cheese and wine. Now, I think a better example would be to give an example of tax stations in Thay (206 FRCS)... but, I assume these are used more for the inhabitants of Thay and as a road toll/blockade for outsiders and slaves? *my post was tax from me by 50%!
Ssussunriyh 04-07-04, 01:24 PM	It is not railroading to have a character face the consequences of his actions. If you do something dumb, like kill an official for doing his job (no matter how distateful his job may be to you personally) then, well, you made your bed, now you gotta sleep in it. That is not railroading. To NOT have such consequences is giving the players a free ride. The poster who said "kill the taxman" didn't even bother to stop and consider other options, like arguing the matter before the magistrate or whatever. I never said there were no other options. It was somehow assumed I was railroading the hypothetical PC, and minds became closed to further discussion once said minds reached that erroneous conclusion. For the record, in the handful of times I have DMed a game, I have never railroaded anyone. In fact, I gave up DMing because I tend to be too lenient and generous, and my games were too easy. (I want the good guys to win. But I can't stand stupid players...) Okay, NOW I'm done. (Exits stage left.)
ender 04-07-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by ethicalsean Thats a contractual labor agreement. You go in for a job interview in Sundabar, and they tell you what you do and your obligations are as an employee of their state. It has nothing to do with an adventurer walking in with his hard earned loot and randomly being accosted by npcs who are literal untouchable if you don't give into them. You are correct regarding Sundabar. However, sticking to the dragon example, you earlier said: Yes, I mean, if I had just been asked/hired/begged to go jump a big bad dragon ravaging the land (possibly by this same scrooge of a feudal lord we speak of) and then after doing the dirty work get slapped with a bill... If such is the case (that the adventurers were asked/hired/begged to slay said dragon), then that is a contractual agreement and is thus subject to precisely that kind of tax. If it is not the case that the PCs were directly hired to slay the dragon, then we should bear in mind where the dragon's horde came from. If it has been terrorizing the area and extorting the locals, then the majority of its loot rightly belongs to the lord (and his subjects), and he has a(n arguable) right to reclaim it. Second, the tax collector and the lord himself are by no means untouchable. I gave no less than eight options for dealing with the situation (six, not counting armed resistance). What was described was precisely railroading. You randomly walk into town, and are told you need to pay a tax (do you even live in this land?). If you do anything to hedge out DM authority, you will be accosted by higher level npcs and the towns people most likely will blindly attack you too. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree about the nature of "railroading." As Ssussunriyh pointed out, DMs forcing PCs to deal with the consequences of their actions is not railroading. It is a realistic situation that any DM can (and should, if she so desires) face her players with. As I noted above, it is not an impossible situation to deal with, and resourceful players have many options as to how to handle the tax-man. I think its a breach of realism to walk into an average fuedal town and find a tax collector eyeing you down oblivious to where you received your possessions or whether you are any sort of citizen of the lands you entered. Much less any good aligned Lord who cares about dealing with the local dragon going so far to demand to adventurers that he wants some too. A breach of realism? Seriously? This still happens today. Go from New York to Paris with a briefcase stuffed with 100 dollar bills. Either, a) you declare this at customs and get taxed, or b) do not declare it and risk incarceration if the money is discovered. Few people, in any age, have thought that taxes were fair or justified. Moreover, as pointed out in several posts above, mercantile taxes are exactly the sort that tax people upfront, just when they, as you put it, "randomly walk into town." Even good-aligned lords need money to operate the government, especially in the aftermath of a rampaging dragon, and few of them are going to be willing to trust in the altruism of adventurers (see Bard of Esgaroth, above). My hats off to the Thayans for proving once again theyre more then a magic Wal-Mart... but page 168 has nothing to do with taxation... you're talking about a coersed "contractual" slavery between Metron and the adventurers... and well, slavery and Thay are like cheese and wine. You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with taxation. Except that it is an example, in the published Realms, where adventurers are being relieved of their booty by the Powers That Be. Rather than accuse the game designers of railroading on an institutional basis, I think it is better to conclude that these things (ie, taxation, tribute, and governments demanding a cut of the profits) happen, and that adventurers had better get used to it. To hammer the point home (that unfortunate things like death and taxes happen), I point once again to the archetypal fantasy source, Tolkien. As I recall, this point went unaddressed.
FineasBoggs 04-08-04, 03:39 AM	The very first Realmslore article from Greenwood is entitled "The rise and fall of the window tax. So in short, "Yes Virginia there is a tax collector." http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif