Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sillaric_culdanin 11-24-06, 06:59 PM	Alright, they've released information about not 1 but 2 of the planned 3-part series of "super-adventures" for next year. Any thoughts on the synopsis of the two: Designed to take characters from 4th to 8th level, the adventure pits the heroes against the evil agents of Shar and Cyric as they plot to corrupt the worship of Mystra, goddess of magic. The adventure begins in Cormyr, but the characters must also travel to the Plane of Shadow to thwart the villains’ machinations.Elminster’s tower lies in ruins, and the town of Shadowdale has been conquered by evil Sharrans and the nefarious forces of Zhentil Keep. To drive the villains out of Shadowdale, the heroes must organize and lead a desperate revolt of Dalesfolk against their conquerors, as well as thwart the sinister designs of Shar’s servants and the Zhent garrison. Who is excited about this adventure arc? Who is planning on buying it? Who has thoughts on how these appear to be the only FR supplements announced for 2007 so far? If this has all been discussed previously, kindly point me to the thread. I for one am very excited about the adventures and plan on buying them and running them as soon as they are released.
miscellany 11-24-06, 07:45 PM	I like slaying nefarious Zhentarim so somebody go find me a DM for this adventure! I am surprised these will be hardcover books. I didn't think adventures sold well enough to merit hardcover action. Maybe it is because they take place in the heartlands that Wizards figures many gamers will be interested in them. I wonder why the Zhentarim are working with Shar in any way? Are Shar and Bane making nice? Either way it would be cool to drive off an invading army and bring Shadowdale back to normal. I wonder if Mounrgrym will be in hiding or slain? And what of Storm’s farm? How will Cormyr be effected/affected by all this? It’s low level so I’m guessing not much but with Wizards you never know for sure. Overall it is nice to see more bad guy priesthoods and organizations having a bigger influence and making bad things happen. That this takes place in Elminster’s backyard is like a way of saying yeah Elminster is tough but he can’t help everything can he? Dirty Dishes are like the event horizon of a black hole, where the black hole is my sink. I’m being inescapably sucked into the black hole. My only way out is to get the dishes done. Save me Mr. Clean! http://www.missionhillschurch.org/files/missionhills/mr%20clean.jpeg
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 10:38 PM	Who is excited about this adventure arc? Who is planning on buying it? Who has thoughts on how these appear to be the only FR supplements announced for 2007 so far? If this has all been discussed previously, kindly point me to the thread. -I am mildly interested in these adventures, but I am boycotting them. WotC is wasting three very valuable FR supplement slots on this "Mega-Adventure". I'd rather see three regional or organizational sourcebooks instead.
Dark Wizard 11-24-06, 10:43 PM	Or at least a mix. Nothing said the three part adventure had to be released all in 2007. Hopefully I'm wrong and the last trimester holds a more traditional Region/Organization/Information book.
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 10:45 PM	Or at least a mix. Nothing said the three part adventure had to be released all in 2007. Hopefully I'm wrong and the last trimester holds a more traditional Region/Organization/Information book. -Well, parts I and II have already been slated for release in 2007. Would they really leave everyone who buys the two hanging?
Dxzauvrinn 11-24-06, 10:48 PM	I'm just glad to see the Drow of the Underdark accessory. Too bad it wasn't that Elves of the Realms book all you faerie elf fans have been hoping for. Ha!
Shade_Hunter 11-24-06, 10:50 PM	-I am mildly interested in these adventures, but I am boycotting them. WotC is wasting three very valuable FR supplement slots on this "Mega-Adventure". I'd rather see three regional or organizational sourcebooks instead. I couldn't agree more. I'm dying for a Dragon's Coast regional sourcebook...any great regional source book for that matter. I'm kind of tired of all these adventures/sourcebooks in places we already know alot about.
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 10:50 PM	I'm just glad to see the Drow of the Underdark accessory. Too bad it wasn't that Elves of the Realms book all you faerie elf fans have been hoping for. Ha! -I've taken that into my own hands. And, usually things produced by dedicated and actual fans are better than "official" things. We won't bow to pressure from the "higher-ups"...;)
Dark Wizard 11-24-06, 10:52 PM	As an unofficial representative of WotC's dark side - Yes. :P J/K The first one comes out in March, the next one in July, four months apart. So the third one might appear sometime around November. If that's the case and FR only gets three hardcover assessories books this year, I would be disappointed, simple as that.
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 10:56 PM	The first one comes out in March, the next one in July, four months apart. So the third one might appear sometime around November. If that's the case and FR only gets three hardcover assessories books this year, I would be disappointed, simple as that. -Unfortunatley, all signs are pointing thus.
Alac Luin 11-24-06, 10:56 PM	I wonder why the Zhentarim are working with Shar in any way? Are Shar and Bane making nice? Well, there are the Cyric following Zents.... On another note.... "Elminster’s tower lies in ruins,......" There just may be a few posters that like this;)
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 10:59 PM	"Elminster’s tower lies in ruins,......" There just may be a few posters that like this;) -Maybe they are just saying that Elminster built his tower on ancient Elven ruins? :P EDIT: Nevermind...That would be"...lies on ruins."
Dark Wizard 11-24-06, 11:03 PM	What if the entire town was ruined, except for the tower, then would the tower lie in ruins? -Unfortunatley, all signs are pointing thus. I expected as much and prepared for it well in advance.
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 11:05 PM	What if the entire town was ruined, except for the tower, then would the tower lie in ruins? -Ah, good point, good point.
Panurg 11-25-06, 05:38 AM	I'm also upset with the hardcover adventure idea. I didn't like Mysteries of the Moonsea very much. It's nice but could be much better, and would have been as a Regional Source Book, as Unaproachable East or Silver Marches. Why would Zents cooperate with Shar? It seems every thing is ok that involves Shar and the plane of shadow. Isn't the current adventure with the elven plot also in parts situated at the plane of shadows? What's happening, has Shar enthralled the WotC management? :uh-huh:
Dxzauvrinn 11-25-06, 01:36 PM	I couldn't agree more. I'm dying for a Dragon's Coast regional sourcebook...any great regional source book for that matter. I'm kind of tired of all these adventures/sourcebooks in places we already know alot about. I agree with you 100 percent. I can't stand the adventure/regional source books. We need books that detail the region like before, not a half-butt attempt at it. The regional books had plenty of adventure ideas in them. They're supposed to make u want to adventure in that region because of all the interesting information they provide, not force u to play a pre-made adventure to explore the region. I could see the regional/adventure type books doing good if they were made in addition to the traditional regional sourcebooks.
Dark Wizard 11-25-06, 02:13 PM	I agree with you 100 percent. I can't stand the adventure/regional source books. We need books that detail the region like before, not a half-butt attempt at it. The regional books had plenty of adventure ideas in them. They're supposed to make u want to adventure in that region because of all the interesting information they provide, not force u to play a pre-made adventure to explore the region. I could see the regional/adventure type books doing good if they were made in addition to the traditional regional sourcebooks. By now I'm probably beating the undead horse, but I agree.
BrianCritchley 11-25-06, 02:17 PM	Isn't the current adventure with the elven plot also in parts situated at the plane of shadows? no it's on another plane entirely. that being said I earlier guessed that part 3 would take place in Sembia given the events of the latest novel, I belive this'll be what happens as the players drive the shades from sembia in book 3. that or maybe we'll all be lucky and part 3 will be titled: anarouch: the utter complete and total destruction of shade. I just hope WOTC doesn't kill off elminister, I know some short sighted individuals complain about him but I find the character rather intresting
Ripe 11-25-06, 03:27 PM	no it's on another plane entirely. that being said I earlier guessed that part 3 would take place in Sembia given the events of the latest novel, I belive this'll be what happens as the players drive the shades from sembia in book 3. that or maybe we'll all be lucky and part 3 will be titled: anarouch: the utter complete and total destruction of shade. I just hope WOTC doesn't kill off elminister, I know some short sighted individuals complain about him but I find the character rather intresting I'd say that there is better chance of WotC killing Elminster and Storm then destroying Shade. Unfortunately. And considering that they planed to destroy Shadowdale mostly because of people complaining about evil never achieving anything, I'd say that the chance that one of the Chosen will be killed is pretty big.
BrianCritchley 11-25-06, 04:22 PM	I'd say that there is better chance of WotC killing Elminster and Storm then destroying Shade. Unfortunately. And considering that they planed to destroy Shadowdale mostly because of people complaining about evil never achieving anything, I'd say that the chance that one of the Chosen will be killed is pretty big. ugh I hate it when a setting takes a bad guy anbd turns them into some super munchy unstoppable force just to appeal to a few ... people who seem to have this bizzare fixation on cheering for the bad guys
Lord Karsus 11-25-06, 07:41 PM	that being said I earlier guessed that part 3 would take place in Sembia given the events of the latest novel, I belive this'll be what happens as the players drive the shades from sembia in book 3. -It does seem that you were correct. that or maybe we'll all be lucky and part 3 will be titled: anarouch: the utter complete and total destruction of shade. -We can always dream, right...I used to like Shade. Look what they did to me...I am so disallusioned now. I just hope WOTC doesn't kill off elminister, I know some short sighted individuals complain about him but I find the character rather intresting -They better not...::Shakes fist threateningly at WotC::
BrianCritchley 11-25-06, 07:45 PM	yeah shade was intresting at first but I am resolutly SICK of shar, sick of the shadow weave etc.
Lord Karsus 11-25-06, 07:49 PM	yeah shade was intresting at first but I am resolutly SICK of shar, sick of the shadow weave etc. -Exactly how I feel. When I first got into the Realms, I was like, "Shar = Cool. Shade = Cool. The Shadow Weave = Cool." Now, I am feeling completely opposite, with the exception of Shar. She will always have a special place in my heart. :)
Alac Luin 11-25-06, 08:20 PM	-Exactly how I feel. When I first got into the Realms, I was like, "Shar = Cool. Shade = Cool. The Shadow Weave = Cool." Now, I am feeling completely opposite, with the exception of Shar. She will always have a special place in my heart. :) A special cold and lonely place in your heart I take it.:P
Lord Karsus 11-25-06, 08:24 PM	A special cold and lonely place in your heart I take it.:P -Actually...:plotting: -It's more like Shar has a special place for my heart. She did, after all, take it during the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. :)
BrianCritchley 11-25-06, 08:32 PM	shar's an intresting deity, but honestly she's intresting within the subtext of her clashes with selune etc. this whole "war of two magics" aspect of her is silly. Shar as a goddess of niliaism, secrects etc is cool, shar as a deity of magic, I can do without
MerrikCale 11-25-06, 10:54 PM	I'd say that there is better chance of WotC killing Elminster and Storm then destroying Shade. Hey, maybe they'll do all three:D
Ateth_Istarlin 11-27-06, 05:25 AM	I have to say that I'm looking forward to this mega-module/adventure. I've been attempting to bring the second Dawn Cataclysm into my campaign, & I think this will help me in setting it up (prob. Lathander will launch his new Dawn Crusade while the other gods are busy with all the problems this adventure will cause).:D
ClobberinTime 11-27-06, 12:49 PM	Oh boy, I am actually worried now, does anybody remember the Greyhawk wars??? As soon as sales dropped they started doing this sort of thing in Greyhawk, killing off major NPCs, moving things around, making evil ascendent. The problem was that it killed Greyhawk, because short term sales bumped a little bit, but it really took the life out of the setting. So here is the major problem with this, if that description actually indicates what needs to happen, how are a bunch of 8 to 12th level PCs going to do it. This is pretty clearly a case of market driven gaming, i.e. The adventure has to be over the series of 3 modules, 4th to 16th because those are the easiest to market levels for adventures. But the action has to be 'epic' so you make it involve the iconics and the shades, and in the end what do you get? A story line with so many holes in it Timmy Smith could run through it. :)
Alediran 11-27-06, 02:32 PM	I'm with the LK part here, just the first module's title makes my skin itch (all hail Neeshka!) I trully hope that WotC don't listen to those with less than 10 in WIS and INT that whant to destroy everything we hold dear about the Realms.
johnkretzer 11-27-06, 05:00 PM	Well I'll say one things about the super modules. Atleast this isn't taking place in novels. I mean I am amazed there be something for the PCs to do. Though I agree it would be alot nicer to see more regional books.
Galad 11-27-06, 05:13 PM	Well I'll say one things about the super modules. Atleast this isn't taking place in novels. I mean I am amazed there be something for the PCs to do. Though I agree it would be alot nicer to see more regional books. Well that all depends. I would rather they kill off people in novels than in adventures. Since some people think that some of the iconic people of Shadowdale might be killed I would personally rather read about it in novels. As for the whole Shar and Shadow Weave, I was a late joiner to 3rd (I stuck with 2nd for as long as possible) edition and I never liked them. I never used them in my own campaign and I told my DM flat out that I did not want to see them as bad guys in him. I never liked the flavor of the whole Shadow Weave, especially since they have never given what I consider a reasonable explanation for its creation or existence. Just my two cents.
THETUNNELRAT 11-27-06, 05:59 PM	Oh boy, I am actually worried now, does anybody remember the Greyhawk wars??? As soon as sales dropped they started doing this sort of thing in Greyhawk, killing off major NPCs, moving things around, making evil ascendent. The problem was that it killed Greyhawk, because short term sales bumped a little bit, but it really took the life out of the setting. So here is the major problem with this, if that description actually indicates what needs to happen, how are a bunch of 8 to 12th level PCs going to do it. This is pretty clearly a case of market driven gaming, i.e. The adventure has to be over the series of 3 modules, 4th to 16th because those are the easiest to market levels for adventures. But the action has to be 'epic' so you make it involve the iconics and the shades, and in the end what do you get? A story line with so many holes in it Timmy Smith could run through it. NUFF SAID.Sir I believe your right everything has a beginning and a end I jest hope they don't do what I think they will do.
Ateth_Istarlin 11-28-06, 05:05 AM	Well that all depends. I would rather they kill off people in novels than in adventures. Since some people think that some of the iconic people of Shadowdale might be killed I would personally rather read about it in novels. As for the whole Shar and Shadow Weave, I was a late joiner to 3rd (I stuck with 2nd for as long as possible) edition and I never liked them. I never used them in my own campaign and I told my DM flat out that I did not want to see them as bad guys in him. I never liked the flavor of the whole Shadow Weave, especially since they have never given what I consider a reasonable explanation for its creation or existence. Just my two cents. I agree with you over the shadowweave - I've never liked it, nor wanted to use it in any campaign. Thats why I'm hoping this adventure series with get rid of it once & for all.:D
Bocklin 11-28-06, 09:03 AM	I'll buy the first book and probably the second one as well. Except if the first one is either particularly badly designed or silly. The names on the cover give me some confidence that it will be neither, but I'll wait and see. No need to be alarmist. Right now, I am at least as excited for "Greyhawk Castle". I hope this one turns out great (but how couldn't it with Mona and Jacobs on the cover!). Bocklin
Galad 11-28-06, 10:38 AM	I agree with you over the shadowweave - I've never liked it, nor wanted to use it in any campaign. Thats why I'm hoping this adventure series with get rid of it once & for all.:D Wake up! Wake up! You're dreaming! Yeah I wish it would go too but it won't. Too many people like it and they just introduced it a few years ago. I would imagine the only way they would get rid of it was to start another Godswar, which is unlikely. It would be nice if they did though. Posters keep on saying there are too many gods out there. Lets get rid of some and the Shadow Weave with them. :D
Ateth_Istarlin 11-28-06, 10:51 AM	Wake up! Wake up! You're dreaming! Yeah I wish it would go too but it won't. Too many people like it and they just introduced it a few years ago. I would imagine the only way they would get rid of it was to start another Godswar, which is unlikely. It would be nice if they did though. Posters keep on saying there are too many gods out there. Lets get rid of some and the Shadow Weave with them. :D AMEN BROTHER!:clap: :cheer: :w00t:
BrianCritchley 11-28-06, 04:38 PM	Wake up! Wake up! You're dreaming! Yeah I wish it would go too but it won't. Too many people like it and they just introduced it a few years ago. I would imagine the only way they would get rid of it was to start another Godswar, which is unlikely. It would be nice if they did though. Posters keep on saying there are too many gods out there. Lets get rid of some and the Shadow Weave with them. :D sadly a lotta the people who like it are those who view the realms as some big good vs evil clash, when the realms are.... more complicated
THETUNNELRAT 11-28-06, 06:45 PM	:$$: is always the bottom line WOTC will do what ever to make the most cash cus I am 99 percent sure that guy who signs his name on the last form to get the project moving IS NOT A PLAYER and cares less for what we want. They know most people will buy the product if anything out of pure hope it wont suck. This is how I see it and I hope I am wrong the thought of the Realms going the way of Greyhawk sickens me.:mad:
MerrikCale 11-28-06, 09:04 PM	sadly a lotta the people who like it are those who view the realms as some big good vs evil clash, when the realms are.... more complicated Fair enough. But the shadow weave does not need to be a "evil" thing.
GothicDan 11-28-06, 09:37 PM	The fact that it was created and is tended by the primordial incarnation of evil in the Faerunian pantheon makes it pretty much evil by definition, no matter what the mechanics say. Or no matter the existence of silly 'edgey' anti-cliche Moon Elven Shadow Adepts.
MerrikCale 11-28-06, 10:18 PM	Or no matter the existence of silly 'edgey' anti-cliche Moon Elven Shadow Adepts. I'll give you that one. I understand it was "created" by evil, but you don't have to DM it that way. Thereby, making it more complicated than good vs. evil, which by the way, can be complicated if you put some thought into it.
ClobberinTime 11-29-06, 05:46 PM	You know what guys, I gave it some thought and changed my mind some. I am not sure about the Cormyr one, but here is my thinking on the Shadowdale installment. Something big is going to happen in Sembia, we have already been warned its a RSE, and that it involves the machinations of Shar and the Shadovar (no spoiler here, the book is Shadowbred right). My guess is that whatever this big something is that it draws Elminster and Storm out of Shadowdale to help deal with it. Now you are Fzoul, you have invaded shadowdale at least three times in the last 20 years, once stymied by the Knights of Myth Drannor (1354), once in the Avatar Crisis (1358), and again in the Last Mythal series (1374). Each time you're superior military force is stymied by some high level NPCs, and the remaining time you haven't invaded because those high level NPCs are just waiting around to kick your butt. Now they are out of the picture, just like in 1358, so what do you do? Take over the miserable place, enslave its people, and tear up their cities. So with the Chosen busy elsewhere you invade. Now some home grown heros pop in to oust you i.e. the PCs. Also, think of this as just a minor sidebar to the real conflict in Sembia, the Shadovar also plop down some baddies there on their way to Sembia, power hungry dictators (Telamont) rarely know when to quit. Or hell maybe they figure they can oust the Zhents themselves. One thing that hasn't been mentioned at all anywhere is that the appearance of the Shades really screwed up the Black Network because it is a certainty that the shades control the Black Road, and if the Zhents use it at all anymore its cause the Shades let them. This module is going to be like City of the Spider Queen with the main action taking part off screen and the PCs as bit players in a larger conflict. So I'm not worried anymore!
Bocklin 11-29-06, 06:54 PM	Hi Clobber, That's a lot of suppositions based on very few information. But, hey, where would be the fun of waiting if we couldn't fill the gap that way!? ;) Bocklin
DM_Shonuff 11-29-06, 07:59 PM	-I am mildly interested in these adventures, but I am boycotting them. WotC is wasting three very valuable FR supplement slots on this "Mega-Adventure". I'd rather see three regional or organizational sourcebooks instead. Quoted for truth. I stand beside my robed mysterious friend here on this.
ClobberinTime 11-29-06, 08:38 PM	I prefer to call it 'deductive extrapolation', but you are right there is a very very very slim chance I am wrong. :)
BrianCritchley 11-29-06, 09:36 PM	Now you are Fzoul, you have invaded shadowdale at least three times in the last 20 years, once stymied by the Knights of Myth Drannor (1354), once in the Avatar Crisis (1358), and again in the Last Mythal series (1374). Each time you're superior military force is stymied by some high level NPCs, and the remaining time you haven't invaded because those high level NPCs are just waiting around to kick your butt. I'm going to note that over all Elminister and co haven't stopped the zxhents but rather the dales forces rallied and fought the zhents off. honestly, given that cormyr tearing of the weave mentions a shar/cyric alliance I wonder if the zhent occupiers of shadowdale are from darkhold.
MerrikCale 11-29-06, 09:39 PM	This module is going to be like City of the Spider Queen with the main action taking part off screen and the PCs as bit players in a larger conflict. So I'm not worried anymore! That I could deak with.
Ramenth 11-30-06, 03:22 AM	Chances are the buildup to this will have something to do with the Shadow War, I assume? That area seems to rapidly be going to cania in a handbasket based on the first book, at any rate.
Klyden 11-30-06, 09:14 PM	Okay. Time to be perfectly and utterly blunt. This CANNOT BE AN ADVENTURE DESIGNED TO TAKE CHARACTERS FROM 4TH TO 8TH LEVEL! Why? Well, consider the following: How in utter buttspawning hell did CR 9 or even CR 10 enemies manage to one up Elminster and his apprentice And Storm AND RANDAL MORN, AND DESTROY ELMINSTER'S TOWER TO BOOT? Answer (it's quite simple too) = it couldn't have happened. Elminster eats CR 9 Zhents and Sharians for breakfeast! I'm thinking WotC got the Level Cap horrificly wrong! For one thing, Shadowdale is home to BOTH STORM AND ELMINSTER as well as Elminster's apprentice/scribe and Randal Morn not to mention dozens of high powered harpers! If anything, this should be an adventure designed to take characters from 14th to 18th level if not to 20th level altogether! Four 8th Level characters foiling the plans of two deities of supreme evil and leading a revolt? Right WotC!
Demetrios 12-01-06, 03:19 AM	-I am mildly interested in these adventures, but I am boycotting them. WotC is wasting three very valuable FR supplement slots on this "Mega-Adventure". I'd rather see three regional or organizational sourcebooks instead. Well, we don't know that there aren't other FR accessories that might show up during that timeframe, especially during the second trimester of the year. If you list the 2007 product page by date, it's obvious that the listings from May onward are incomplete. Just look at the products per month: from January to April they go 8-6-9-8, but from May to August they go 2-3-3-1. There are probably at least a dozen to twenty second trimester products out there that have yet to appear in the catalogue.
Bocklin 12-01-06, 03:21 AM	I prefer to call it 'deductive extrapolation', but you are right there is a very very very slim chance I am wrong. :) Let's hope you are. ;) If it's one of the few books we get next year for the FR, than I hope it will at least be well done, and not just some sideshow to novels. But I understand your thinking. Now, starting to criticize a plot (as others do here), which they know nothing about is something completely different... Klyden, you have not seen anything substantive about the plot. Just a teaser. The least would be to be cautious about one's judgement. I am not a WotC fanboy and there are many books I am not buying in the hope that it steers production in a better direction, but I usually make up my mind AFTER it's out and I had a chance to get a glimpse of the content. Bocklin
Ramenth 12-01-06, 11:48 AM	I would assume that "The Tearing of the Weave" explains why Elminster and Storm arent saving ShadowDale.
Bocklin 12-01-06, 12:16 PM	I would assume that "The Tearing of the Weave" explains why Elminster and Storm arent saving ShadowDale. Exactly my assumption.
Alediran 12-01-06, 12:22 PM	The time of Scouring of the Land could be while Elminster and Storm are saving the Baelnorns in Tears so White from Realms of the Elves.
Faraer 12-01-06, 06:26 PM	Four 8th Level characters foiling the plans of two deities of supreme evil and leading a revolt? Right WotC!In the Realms, character level is not the hard-and-fast determinant you're making it. Look no further than the Knights of Myth Drannor, who achieve things far beyond their simple character power through wits and compassion. Characters regularly punch above, or below, their weight, due to circumstance, will, and many other factors. This major theme of the setting makes the Realms less stratified than the relatively populous societies, thus including a good many high-level characters, would otherwise be.
Davidw 12-01-06, 06:44 PM	In the Realms, character level is not the hard-and-fast determinant you're making it. Look no further than the Knights of Myth Drannor, who achieve things far beyond their simple character power through wits and compassion. Being the Chosen of Ed Greenwood gives them an unofficial bonus of +25 to CR.
Faraer 12-01-06, 06:48 PM	That's very unfair to the skilful play of Ed's players, and wrong to suggest that the theme I mentioned is at all restricted to the Knights.
Lord Karsus 12-01-06, 07:02 PM	Well, we don't know that there aren't other FR accessories that might show up during that timeframe, especially during the second trimester of the year. If you list the 2007 product page by date, it's obvious that the listings from May onward are incomplete. Just look at the products per month: from January to April they go 8-6-9-8, but from May to August they go 2-3-3-1. There are probably at least a dozen to twenty second trimester products out there that have yet to appear in the catalogue. -I didn't say that WotC was not going to be releasing any other FR supplements for 2007. Last time I heard, WotC has three planned sourcebooks for 2007, concerning the Realms. All three parts of this Mega-Adventure make up the three FR slots. -But, even if there are other FR sourcebooks next year, I am still boycotting these adventures. These three adventures could have been: Elves of Faerūn The Cosmology of Faerūn The Forgotten Folk of the Realms Dwarves of Faerūn Take your pick of something else that fans want...
Galad 12-01-06, 08:48 PM	The time of Scouring of the Land could be while Elminster and Storm are saving the Baelnorns in Tears so White from Realms of the Elves. Well I would think that it would be mentioned that the town is in ruins at the end of the story were that the case.
miscellany 12-02-06, 04:47 AM	Levels are arbitrary approximations of power. Meta Setting and Meta Story events outside of one’s own campaign like what this future module describes as occurring should never ever be measured for likelihood of happening in terms of levels and CRs and ELs and ECLs. I know some of yous are just learning the game and are starting out by thinking this way but hey look at what wise old Faraer says because its damn well true. Broaden your horizons and think outside of the rules. Not only better <funner> gameplay but all of a sudden lots more things fall into the Realm of possible. And that’s one realm you never want to forget.
GothicDan 12-02-06, 12:30 PM	And the reason why I dislike the CR system rares its ugly head - specifically, in newer players thinking too hard on exact power levels as being universal. One clever use of terrain or an object can effectively lower an enemy's 'CR' by 4 points, guys. It may not be written in the books, but it doesn't mean that there isn't a truth to it in the setting and in gameplay. For instance, in the first game I played, my group was a bunch of 2nd (and a few 3rd) level PCs. We were ambushed by about a dozen trolls. By CR, that should have been an impossible battle. But we had a lot of alcohol handy, and my character was a Fire Elementalist Fire Genasi Protective rings of fire drawn in alcohol, alcohol-soaked arrowed shooting through the ring of fire, and being immune to all normal flames myself, allowed us to kill almost all of the trolls with no casualties. CR-be-damned.
miscellany 12-02-06, 12:48 PM	Silly Dan. CRs aren't exact they are approximations just like I said last night and this is why they are a tool for Dungeon Masters to use just like the DMG says speaking of which the DMG says DMs are supposed to know about player abilities and have a general idea of what items they carry before planning encounters so any DM worth her stuff would know for your group creatures vulnerable to fire are going to be in more of a world of hurt than a different group would put them in. You may not like the CR system but there's really little point in complaining that it fails to do something it was never meant to do anyway. I like your description of how things played out sounds fun. Must have sucked to be so busy hating the game while you were playing it though. Meh x2!
BrianCritchley 12-02-06, 03:41 PM	aye CR is a way to know roughly what a party with normal prperation can handle. in your troll example, your party wasn't exactly.. unperpared to fight trolls. furthermore let';s be honest here GD, your characters had they got hit once would be dead. and thats why CR is listed, for the DM to decide "well ok at their level unless they roll a natural 20 they can't hit this sucker, it's immune to all their magic ohh and 1 hit from it, and it'll hit if I roll a 5 or better, kills em" it allows the DM to quickly and easily decide what kinda critter is DESIGNED to be a challange at that level. but a smart PC can often handle other critters. but yeah CR is just a rough approximation and by no means is a garenteer. especially as CR class wise for humans is equal (and I think we all agree that a third level fighter is proably moire dangerous then a third level wizard)
Faraer 12-02-06, 09:04 PM	aye CR is a way to know roughly what a party with normal prperation can handle.Can handle easily, in a notional face-to-face battle. With teamwork, risk, heroism, picking your battles, striking at weak points, calling in friends and favours, and using means other than fighting, CR becomes meaningless quickly -- its assumptions rarely apply with an intelligently played group. It's a useful mechanic for planning encounters, but not for anticipating what can happen in the Realms in real situations.
GothicDan 12-03-06, 02:16 AM	CRs aren't exact they are approximations just like I said last night and this is why they are a tool for Dungeon Masters to use just like the DMG says speaking of which the DMG says DMs are supposed to know about player abilities and have a general idea of what items they carry before planning encounters so any DM worth her stuff would know for your group creatures vulnerable to fire are going to be in more of a world of hurt than a different group would put them in. I know that. Obviously some of the newer players don't. You may not like the CR system but there's really little point in complaining that it fails to do something it was never meant to do anyway. I wasn't. I was complaining that the way the material is presented is obviously not effective in construing the information to players (which is one of my biggest gripes about the system). Or maybe some of the players aren't receptive enough to the chapters/sections that don't apply directly to combat? Or maybe I've just had too many isolated, personal experiences in 3E games outside of ones like this thread (even from newer players who WERE otherwise good roleplayers in other games, such as one who LARPed.) I like your description of how things played out sounds fun. Must have sucked to be so busy hating the game while you were playing it though. It was actually under 2E rules. Which meant the encounter was about twice as hard as it probably would have been in 3E. (Spellcasters were all weaker, Trolls were stronger.)
GothicDan 12-03-06, 02:22 AM	aye CR is a way to know roughly what a party with normal prperation can handle. in your troll example, your party wasn't exactly.. unperpared to fight trolls. furthermore let';s be honest here GD, your characters had they got hit once would be dead. and thats why CR is listed, for the DM to decide "well ok at their level unless they roll a natural 20 they can't hit this sucker, it's immune to all their magic ohh and 1 hit from it, and it'll hit if I roll a 5 or better, kills em" it allows the DM to quickly and easily decide what kinda critter is DESIGNED to be a challange at that level. Except, of course, our DM also knew that we WERE designed to fight trolls, to a point (though we didn't know that; we were using the alcohol to sell, after the Wizards used Metamorphose Liquid a lot.. Mmm, money). So, as Faraer pointed out, the CR of the trolls as they would have been listed in 3E would have been utterly meaningless in that situation. Especially because the DM took into account the trolls' innate fear of fire (pretty much the only natural thing that could kill them), and so some of them fled after most died. Morale was such an amazingly accurate thing; I wish it was around in 3E still.
miscellany 12-03-06, 03:16 AM	I do believe based on mine own considerable experience as player and Dungeon Master that I will agree and disagree with Faraer there now I even got your name right finally! OK my buds say not to ramble. Fat. Chance. Can handle easily, in a notional face-to-face battle. Challenge Rating Monster Manual page Sleven This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty <yeah that’s me not the book on the italics>. Assume a party of four fresh characters (full hit points, full spells, and equipment appropriate to their levels). Given reasonable luck, the party should be able to win the encounter with some damage but no casualties. Not all monsters are designed for face-to-face battles as any DM reading the Monster Manual knows many monsters have skills feats and ability scores to let them use tactics and even get verbal with the players (Diplomacy - Sense Motive - etcetera) so I think Far’s description is too frugal. If a DM uses skillsets and plays monsters like players play characters all of a sudden there’s equal footing. With teamwork, risk, heroism, picking your battles, striking at weak points, calling in friends and favours, and using means other than fighting, CR becomes meaningless quickly -- its assumptions rarely apply with an intelligently played group. I don’t quite get this whether set piece robot like lets walk up to each other and take turns bashing until someone falls type hack n’ slash battles <I’m thinking that’s what Far means by notional face-to-face battle> or the more flashy variety <includes what Far lumped together and what I said about skills feats ability scores> CR is still just as useful for setting teh baseline. What Far seems to be saying is smart players and roleplaying outstrip the CR mechanic’s capacity to peg what a moderately difficult encounter will be for any given group of four player characters. OK so I agree up to a point cause veteran players can run circles around a novice DM who will likely run monsters as set piece battles but I don’t agree in general because not all monsters are designed to be played that way and I know a DM who knows well her players style won’t do that and I know that the next step after figuring CRs is to properly determine an Encounter Level and that involves a combination of factors outside of the monster CRs themselves like the Dungeon Master’s Guide talks about on page 50. It's a useful mechanic for planning encounters, but not for anticipating what can happen in the Realms in real situations. Real is a crazy word to use as a degree of difference term between game encounters and everything else that happens to players in a fantasy roleplaying game in the Forgotten Realms. Gotta say I’m thinking false dichotomy bro. To the amount that an encounter will be about not spells blasting and swords hacking but instead opposed rolls <my spot vs. monster hide, my move silently vs. monster listen, opposed diplomacy rolls PC vs. NPC or monster> and the lead up to an encounter like illusions cast and traps laid down and diversions and who is scrying on who and so on the CR mechanic is still a good baseline because monster skills and abilities and even capacity for tactics rise up with hit dice and all that is factored in to challenge PCs of an appropriate level on their rolls and abilities to see past and overcome obstacles. But yeah beyond that the CR mechanic isn’t there to tell the DM how dangerous it will be for a player character to sneak into the Royal Audience Chamber and steal away the Queen’s knickers from out of the King’s pocket where he keeps them for a happy sniff every now and again during those brief moments alone that come between repeated audiences with one courtier after another from far away lands. So let’s get back on track see because all this rules talk is about playing the game. When we think over Elminster’s tower in ruins and do a quick Elminster as NPC with CR X plus all his unlisted abilities <like Far’s calling in favors> then we think hey that just aint possible good old El should mop the floor with any old Zhent Army backed up by Shar or whatever, right? Wrongo! Ed says setting elements should not be adversely impinged on by the rules and this is true. The rules just don’t contain considerations for the plottings of Chosen and the goddess they serve nor should they because that is impractical and is wastage of a DMs precious time. NPCs should be more real <yeah I said it but this time it got used right> than that so this means no set piece Elminster versus the bad guys because darn it it just wouldn’t go down that way. What ‘can’ happen in teh Realms is a product of the imagination. The rules are there for DMs to help players have fun interacting with the Realms my take anyway. Christmas Pooky says hello.
miscellany 12-03-06, 03:37 AM	HI DAN! Did you know terrain cover and other features don't effect CR they effect the overall encounter level/difficulty? This is written in the books see the DMG adventure chapter. OK so is Pooky male or female? Can someone please ask Garfield?
miscellany 12-03-06, 05:14 AM	You used a 2nd Edition encounter as the basis to criticize a 3rd Edition mechanic? Silly Dan. When they said Trix are for kids they didn’t mean do tricks on people. OK OK I’ll translate to 3rd Edition and my DM will run the numbers. To pretend it’s topical <no people we’re not talking about ointments> let us put Dan’s encounter into Tearing of the Weave/Scouring of the Land. Let’s say Dan and his buds are at full HP and spells and are all making their way south along the River Ashaba to reach Shadowdale to sell the Cormyrian Brandy <sorry manufacturing alcohol is lame> they unexpectedly obtained after a most harrowing adventure in the woods north of the town whereupon they spot an alarming amount of smoke in the sky. They move out of the wood and see hundreds of black armored Zhentarim, foul humanoid warrior stock <orcs, ogres, trolls and the like> accompanied by Banites and Sharans setting fire to crops and cottages and putting the sword to dalesfolk. They move back to the wood’s edge and head south following the river’s path where they see the Old Skull itself has been blasted down after it and much of Shadowdale were flattened by some riotously powerful spell owing to the agents of the Zhentarim and Shar. Once they reach the western edge of the Old Skull they metagame a bit and decide to go get help from Da Man himself <Elminster> so they dare to cross the river and then slowly pick their way eastward over the Skull’s granite remnants until they reach an elevated portion of rock along its southern flank. From their Dan and Co. get an excellent view of the ruinous destruction just as a dozen surly and very much dominated trolls spot them from down below where they’re rummaging through the ruins of Elminster’s Windmill tower looking for survivors to eat combat happens. My DM Says: About the party: Let’s guess that a bunch of 2nd (and a few 3rd) means five 2nd level characters and three 3rd level characters, for 8 total. About the terrain: Attacking from high ground gives Dan’s team (TeamGD) +1 on melee attacks. No bonus or penalties to range. TeamGD enjoys cover from what’s left of the Old Skull, but all players and creatures suffer movement penalties because of the rocky, difficult terrain. About the creatures: Trolls are a CR 5 with 63 HP, AC 16, move 30’ per turn, have reach, do 9 average damage per hit and Rend for average 16 points of damage. One troll is an Encounter Level (EL) of 5 and so excluding any other factors is a moderately difficult (average) encounter for a fully rested 5th level party. Point worth noting: A dozen trolls are an average encounter for a 12th level party. So, how does TeamGD stack up to a 12th level party? Well TeamGD is really two parties in one. You see four of the five 2nd level PCs are party #1 and the leftover 2nd level PC gets added in with the three 3rd level PCs for party #2. Party #1 average level = 2nd. Party #2 average level = 2.75 round up to 3rd. When it comes to CRs four PCs are the magic number remember? So....for a single second or third level party, an encounter level of 5 (one troll) is classified as Very Difficult because it is 1-4 levels higher than the average party level. Now because we have two parties in effect we would need two Trolls for a very difficult encounter. 12 trolls is classified as an Overpowering encounter because it is 5 or more levels higher than the average level of the entire <8 person> party which is right around 2.5. If the trolls have to spend two rounds moving uphill over difficult terrain that gives TeamGD two rounds to soak the ground with alcohol, ready ranged attacks, make clumsy ranged attacks at a penalty past 10 feet and start setting fires. Let’s say the alcohol (not quite alchemist fire, but aged to perfection = burns like crazy we’ll say) does 1d4 damage, 1 point splash damage, 1d4 to the target on round two and has a DC 13 Reflex to put the flames out. So here is the test: Does a seemingly unlimited supply of flammable alcohol, one fire-immune PC and hasty tactics to combine cover with firelike barriers to hamper the troll’s routes to the PCs up the hill balance out the troll’s overwhelming numbers? The short answer is sweet hells no. Not a chance. By third edition rules a DM will overwhelm and total party wipeout TeamGD every time. Long answer is above plus too many trolls with too many attacks and too many hitpoints. Even if TeamGD concentrated ranged attacks over two rounds and dedicated half the party to keep up the missile fire from behind cover while the melee players all hacked on any prone trolls (+4 bonus to hit) they just won’t be able to slow enough trolls <make them stop drop and roll> and do enough damage to the prone ones (around 2-3 Fighters hitting 50% of the time and doing 9-11 points per hit) before the party is simply overwhelmed, outflanked and flat out rended to death. Average rend damage will kill second and third level PCs outright. Flanking makes this easier (12 trolls against 8 characters means 4 characters get 2 trolls to deal with and 4 characters get 1 to deal with). Flaming trolls have been known to grapple their attackers <+14 grapple check means I win grapple checks a lot>. Yeah the battle might last awhile and TeamGD might down 2 or even 3 trolls if Tymora smiles on them but that is really all they will accomplish before their adventures in Shadowdale come to a gruesome, bloody end. Miss miscellany says thank you DM! It’s a good thing we have the CR system and instructions from the Dungeon Master’s Guide to help us not make pointless one sided encounters like this. But then again my DM pointed out her Dungeon Master’s Guide say it’s OK to run status quo encounters that don’t care about average party level all that much. You just have to tell your players ahead of time. By Dan’s assessment of second edition as having weaker wizards and more powerful trolls his group should have all been killed. Speaking of hungry regenerating trolls: Why in the hell doesn’t Woverine have an equally monstrous apetite?
GothicDan 12-03-06, 02:49 PM	Once they reach the western edge of the Old Skull they metagame a bit and decide to go get help from Da Man himself <Elminster> so they dare to cross the river and then slowly pick their way eastward over the Skull’s granite remnants until they reach an elevated portion of rock along its southern flank. Nope. Wouldn't happen. :) By Dan’s assessment of second edition as having weaker wizards and more powerful trolls his group should have all been killed. Good thing our DM knew that we were more intelligent than the actual CR system takes into account for, and knew that, at least, we'd have a chance. But he was also a very harsh DM: we were thrown into slavery 3 times. I also find it interesting that you in no way took into account any specific tactics,including staying shielded BEHIND the circle of flame for the majority of the time. And having a wand with a single charge of Fireball turned out pretty useful, too. Cantrips also came in pretty handy....
miscellany 12-03-06, 10:34 PM	So the CR system assumes players are dumb where is that in the rules I can't find it? We did take into account specific tactics but we can't mind read so even a single charge on a wand o Fireballs you never mentioned wouldn't have been enough to help you unless it was empowered or maximized and of a level far higher than what you could cast and the Trolls all stood around in a group for you to blast them all. I'm curious could your character whip up common flames to make them last longer and make them stronger cause we <my Dm and me> don't see how a mighty wall of flames big enough to intimidate Trolls who have no fear of death could be made out of alcohol even if you set fire to grass or whatever and then the flames are burning towards you as much as out. Trolls don't naturally shy away from flames they get around them and attack. But it's OK DMs are mean and generous and tweak the rules to let characters get out of impossible situations where by the rules they should all die and that's fine because a hairs breadth away from death is a cool experience for a player to have for their character so yeah frady cat Trolls that's cool. Player tactics and proclivities are the DMs job to keep track of not the CR mechanic the CR mechanic is there to be the baseline versus character class abilities and mechanics. Saying CRs encourage DMs not to think about the rest of what a player might do is of course wrong any DM with experience and the power to read the DMG knows this isn't true. I think some people just have a 2nd Edition Is Better superiority complex or play 3rd Edition long enough to 'comfirm' what they already 'know' <they don't like it> and will say any kind of thing to push that idea now me I don't care play what you want but please don't equivocate about one system just because you don't care for it that makes for all kinds of off topic posts when we are forced to set you straight. That was so good I don't even have to sign off.
GothicDan 12-04-06, 12:20 AM	I think some people just have a 2nd Edition Is Better superiority complex or play 3rd Edition long enough to 'comfirm' what they already 'know' <they don't like it> and will say any kind of thing to push that idea now me I don't care play what you want but please don't equivocate about one system just because you don't care for it that makes for all kinds of off topic posts when we are forced to set you straight. Miscellany, your powers of perception are astounding. Good job! You sure showed us! You're entirely right! 3E is the best in every way! I don't know how I could have ever doubted its greatness! I'm going to go play my homebrewed world based roughly on White Wolf's mechanics now. Good night.
miscellany 12-04-06, 02:42 AM	Dan your strawman is weak and your sarcasm lacking mucho. Get some sleep think on it and maybe try again tomorrow who knows maybe you can bomb a tread with an off topic coherent argument that stands up to criticism good luck kiddo! Truth hurts.
Ramenth 12-04-06, 03:26 AM	Err. Techincally, last I checked, in terms of Lore trolls do shy away from fire.
miscellany 12-04-06, 03:36 AM	Hi Ramenth nice to meet you I was using the standard Monster Manual entry that says: COMBAT Trolls have no fear of death: They launch themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent. Even when confronted with fire, they try to get around the flames and attack. Now I know there's Drizzt novels with Trolls in them and proly stories about fire chasing them off so yeah I gave Danny a hard time on that. But knowing GD he'll call it an 'unneccessary retcon' and have something else to be negative about. Ramenth have a good day/night! Goodnight and Goodluck. <Kickass movie by teh way>
MerrikCale 12-04-06, 01:02 PM	Miscellany, your powers of perception are astounding. Good job! You sure showed us! You're entirely right! 3E is the best in every way! I don't know how I could have ever doubted its greatness! I'm going to go play my homebrewed world based roughly on White Wolf's mechanics now. Good night. I still like the first edition. Or better yet, D&D Basic.
GothicDan 12-04-06, 01:39 PM	Dan your strawman is weak and your sarcasm lacking mucho. Get some sleep think on it and maybe try again tomorrow who knows maybe you can bomb a tread with an off topic coherent argument that stands up to criticism good luck kiddo! Truth hurts. With sleep, I still don't think that your attempt to somehow unveil some great mystery that I've been hiding from myself is particularly potent. I sincerely like some aspects of 2E; just as I do of 3E, actually. I dislike aspects of both, too. It's more the implementation of the rulesets that differs, and that's where I don't enjoy 3E as much (usually, but not always). The design methods are quite different (and that's always been a pretty well-established fact); I simply prefer 2E's design methods more often.
ClobberinTime 12-04-06, 02:09 PM	Two Pertinent points here: 1, All of the Knights of Myth Drannor stuff was started in 1e. You have got to realize that 1e characters, well they died, they died alot, I mean they died all the time, i.e. In 5 to 6 years of continuous playing, including playing during class in Junior High, My two highest level characters were a 6th level Assasin and an 8th level Cleric. So 10th Level Florin Falconhand is a god for 1ed characters. 2, The Cr system is relatively sound. The problem most of the time has less to do with the tactics the players use in any particular encounter than it does with the character builds and magic items (in this way it is the same as 1ed and 2ed). Playing a party of 4 with each archetype covered is well boring, Personally I really like theme parties, i.e. all start off as rougues, one becomes an arcane trickster, one a tactical fighter, one a multiclassed cleric, etc... Parties like that can tool on some adventures, i.e. they get to the BBEBG easily, but in some encounters bog down, like putting them up against a buch of constructs. 3, The key to the CR system isn't that there are situations where it doesn't work, it is that taken over all games and all styles of play, or even one party over a campaign, that it evens out. I.e. you might walk over one EL 7 encounter and get wholloped on another, but in these balance each other out.
Elvenknight_Cologne 12-04-06, 02:14 PM	-I didn't say that WotC was not going to be releasing any other FR supplements for 2007. Last time I heard, WotC has three planned sourcebooks for 2007, concerning the Realms. All three parts of this Mega-Adventure make up the three FR slots. -But, even if there are other FR sourcebooks next year, I am still boycotting these adventures. These three adventures could have been: Elves of Faerūn The Cosmology of Faerūn The Forgotten Folk of the Realms Dwarves of Faerūn Take your pick of something else that fans want... I don't understand it! The mega FR adventure is a nice idea, and when make WotC the adventure trilology not so a big sh** like Mysteries of the M., than the adventure trilogy had a good fortune. It has many capability for are great adventure. But, I don't understand, that was Karsus sad and I agree with him: Many, many people worldwide wishs another products for the FR as the products they came out this and next year. I can't say it often enough: Why Witards, I don't understand it. Are the sales figures from FR products high enough, that you think the stupid players buy all FR products, the bad job products, too? When yes, and the next FR supplements, the three adventures are a pratfall, than I boycott FR products in the future, too. Sorry for my terrible english.
The Heretic 12-04-06, 03:27 PM	Miscellany, I support everything that you said, but deplore the way that you said it. There was a very arrogant tone there, generally reserved for speaking to cavemen in the 24th century. On another note, while I might bemoan the lack of regional source books this year, I plan to purchase and fully enjoy these modules. Once upon a time, modules were the only source for any lore. People that boycott these products are cutting their noses off to spite their faces. Care to affect what's being produced? Write a letter and send a copy to each of the pertinent folks at wizards. Be calm, be rational, be respectful. The fact that you took the time to do so will speak volumes. I don't know about the private sector, but in politics if you recieve a letter on an issue it is a given that 10 other people are thinking it but didn't take the time to write it. So if Rich Baker recieves 100 calm, rational, and respectful letters asking for a certain product, he'll know that at least a thousand others are thinking it. If you're not in the letter writing mood, fill out all of your customer surveys that are in the backs of you books and send them in. That will send a message also.
miscellany 12-05-06, 03:10 AM	Hi Dan I think for my DMing its that CR and EL and stuff are tools you get now you didn't get in 2E now each edition teaches DMs to moderate magic items and PC power level but no tools until 3E really. Ya gotta learn the rules before you can break em I say!
GothicDan 12-05-06, 01:41 PM	Care to affect what's being produced? Write a letter and send a copy to each of the pertinent folks at wizards. Be calm, be rational, be respectful. The fact that you took the time to do so will speak volumes. I don't know about the private sector, but in politics if you recieve a letter on an issue it is a given that 10 other people are thinking it but didn't take the time to write it. So if Rich Baker recieves 100 calm, rational, and respectful letters asking for a certain product, he'll know that at least a thousand others are thinking it. If you're not in the letter writing mood, fill out all of your customer surveys that are in the backs of you books and send them in. That will send a message also. We've been personally told by WotC employees to "talk with our wallets." That is, NOT buy sourcebooks we don't like, and instead purchase two or more sourcebooks we DID like... I'd never do that, of course. I'd rather not buy books at all from a company than have to buy two or more of the same one just to have my voice heard.
Ramenth 12-05-06, 02:38 PM	Realistically, you need to do both, and enmasse. Simply not buying wont do anything besides kill the setting; WotC will assume no one is interested, and let it drop. Just sending letters wont work because people will assume "Eh, they buy anyway. Why change, they'll come around." If you do both, however, hopefully people will put two and two together and listen to your concerns. I definitly agree that we're having RSE's too often, though novel wise I like the one a year bit. I just wish the novels had more years inbetween them.
GothicDan 12-05-06, 02:46 PM	And, of course, we've basically been called morons by some for buying FR books regardless of the content. ;) Because we're psychic and know exactly how good they're going to be before we buy them. I don't know about you guys, but I don't feel right basically reading an entire book in a bookstore.
Davidw 12-05-06, 04:04 PM	A friend of mine once did that. Every dinner time for several weeks, he'd go to this book shop near to where he worked, pick out the same book, read a few pages, and put it back. It took him nearly a month but he finished the entire book.
GothicDan 12-05-06, 04:06 PM	I would feel slimy doing that, personally. The most I ever read of a book in a bookstore is a few pages, if that. Usually I go in having a good idea of what I want in the first place, usually from reliable friends.
Davidw 12-05-06, 06:08 PM	It's a pity the shop didn't sell out of the book before he finished it. Would have served him right for being so tightfisted.
BrianCritchley 12-05-06, 09:15 PM	I ocne read an entire novel in a book store, keep in mind I was a kid and had a highly limited income at the time, once I ahd the cash I DID shell out for the book
msatran 12-05-06, 11:54 PM	I have to agree with the people who are saying how useless these adventures are. I would much have preferred, oh, I don't know... Lands of Intrigue? Dwarves of Faerun? The Savage Frontier? The High Forest? Chult? Faiths of Faerun (One PRC per deity, please, plus real ritual information, etc.) Cormyr? The Dalelands? (This is the WORST way of covering the Dalelands in sourcebooks I've ever seen.) Anauroch (City of Shade, The High Ice, the whole deal) Gnomes and Halflings of Faerun (These races are so underdeveloped in source material that even the limited 2nd edition material is insufficient. Sure, Races has some ability information, but what about CULTURE?)? The Sea of Fallen Stars? Dust Desert of Raurin? There's a million things I'd rather see than 3 superadventures.
Ateth_Istarlin 12-06-06, 04:09 AM	I have to agree with the people who are saying how useless these adventures are. I would much have preferred, oh, I don't know... Lands of Intrigue? Dwarves of Faerun? The Savage Frontier? The High Forest? Chult? Faiths of Faerun (One PRC per deity, please, plus real ritual information, etc.) Cormyr? The Dalelands? (This is the WORST way of covering the Dalelands in sourcebooks I've ever seen.) Anauroch (City of Shade, The High Ice, the whole deal) Gnomes and Halflings of Faerun (These races are so underdeveloped in source material that even the limited 2nd edition material is insufficient. Sure, Races has some ability information, but what about CULTURE?)? The Sea of Fallen Stars? Dust Desert of Raurin? There's a million things I'd rather see than 3 superadventures. Ditto - I will get this mega-adventure (although I will have to tweak it a little - our group will be about 9th level by the time we get to play it):)
msatran 12-07-06, 01:04 AM	The reason why this is so bad is that it gives us literally no ability to figure out what the towns and cities look like AFTER the adventures are over. If one of your PC's builds a farm on the site of Elminster's tower, are you ballsy, or just stupid? There's no way this can even be MANAGED, let alone function.
Ramenth 12-07-06, 04:45 AM	How do you know that? We have no idea what the third adventure contains, let alone if it has a section on aftermath. Though I doubt it, for all we know it'll cover the rebuilding process in explicit detail.
msatran 12-09-06, 01:11 AM	Oh, come on, Ramenth. How many adventures have you EVER seen published where there's a "Before" map and an "After" map? We'll be lucky if between every major adventure designer for D+D since "Temple of the Frog" in the little white box, there's ONE.
Deus_ex_Invictus 12-09-06, 01:18 AM	A friend of mine once did that. Every dinner time for several weeks, he'd go to this book shop near to where he worked, pick out the same book, read a few pages, and put it back. It took him nearly a month but he finished the entire book. I do this all the time... except I tend to finish the book in a single session, but them I am a fast reader.
Brenigin 12-09-06, 02:24 AM	The reason why this is so bad is that it gives us literally no ability to figure out what the towns and cities look like AFTER the adventures are over. If one of your PC's builds a farm on the site of Elminster's tower, are you ballsy, or just stupid? There's no way this can even be MANAGED, let alone function. When has an adventure ever done this? And who's to say Elminster doesn't turn up at the end, say "dang, look at what they did to my tower!", and then rebuild it?
Zsych 12-09-06, 04:45 AM	Well... this is interesting. The ideas don't actually appeal to me, but its entirely possible that they will be well done. Depends on the authors and the effort they are putting in I would think. I certainly would like to know how Elminster's tower ends up in ruins(artifact probably though). Shar's clergy must be pulling out the big guns, and just the fact that Shar's forces are openly attacking Elminster is actually interesting. It implies that the power balance is changing. ... Nothing wrong with Shar's lot having dominance for a while, with Mystra's lot having to work hard to regain control. ... It's kinda sad that this is happening to Elminster though... unfortunate things seem to happen to him considering his age and knowledge. (hmm... occurs to me that if you broke the weave magic around elminster's tower.. it might be enough to make it collapse)
MerrikCale 12-09-06, 07:50 AM	I do this all the time... except I tend to finish the book in a single session, but them I am a fast reader. I'm sure the authors who post here are thrilled with this discussion.
msatran 12-10-06, 02:25 AM	Well... this is interesting. ... Nothing wrong with Shar's lot having dominance for a while, with Mystra's lot having to work hard to regain control. Well, actually, this is completely stupid and out of theme. I can't believe that you guys as Realms afficionados don't understand precisely how asinine the shadow weave is. This is the bastard child of Birthright that was somehow transplanted into the FR setting, and it REALLY doesn't belong there. Mystra IS magic in the Realms, and there's zero reason to justify any of this stupidity other than to fuel chaos and take away from the "Human Stories" that make the Realms heroic by virtue of those human stories. So as far as I am concerned, I really don't care to read another story about a wartorn Dalelands, Cormyr, Etc. What is the point of battling a CR 38 enemy (Telamont Tanthul) who can research "Take over the World from My Bedroom Save at DC 40" spell. At least without the Shadow Weave, there was a reason for heroes to exist. Now, Mystra can't say no. Just ONCE, ONCE, could we please let COMMON SENSE prevail?
GothicDan 12-10-06, 11:02 AM	Common sense makes not the monies! (I still want "A novel of the life of an Elven noble in Evermeet.")
Faraer 12-10-06, 11:05 AM	Common sense makes not the monies!Don't you believe it. In many cases it hasn't been tried.
GothicDan 12-10-06, 11:07 AM	I am guilty of believing what The Man has told me! Noooo!
miscellany 12-10-06, 08:37 PM	You guys should majorly consider donating all your extra time to charity and I do mean all of it seriously the amount of bleeding heart B.S. you guys drop on the forums is making it reek of coppery smelling poo. Shout out to msatran for making me laugh I respect the heartfelt emotion buy hey get someone back on the bridge real soon to guide the ship know what I’m saying bro? Us mine and ours are still looking forward to the adventure I hope we get to play it and discover all kinds of crazy bad things like maybe Elminster’s body or something. Hey Zsych do you suppose the Sharans are really attacking Elminster or maybe he bugged out before the big bruhaha and left his place to get sacked along with Shadowdale? It's like hard to predict Mystra's desires in all this assuming she saw it coming so I wonder if Storm's place is sacked too? For Christmas I want a new rule in the code of conduct that automatically bans all way too serious monkey bookworms.
GothicDan 12-10-06, 09:21 PM	Miscellany, your hypocrisy is showing. I'm going to go back to reading my books now and studying for my E&M Fields final and editing my Lost Latin Poetry paper. Sorry I don't have time (or care) to do charity. I'm a greedy bastard like that. :)
ClobberinTime 12-10-06, 09:28 PM	Well without the Monkey Bookworms D+D doesn't get very far, here is an example of what will happen: Poster #1: 'Hey yous, how you get more damage?' Poster #2: 'You yous that feat' Poster #1: 'Which one?' Poster #2: 'You know the one in the book' Poster #1: 'The one wit all de words?' Poster #2: 'I don't reads to good' Poster #1: 'Yeah me nedder' Here is the point, leave the thinking to those who are qualified to do it, that should probably be the christmass rule.
miscellany 12-11-06, 12:21 AM	You mean WotC employees right because I wouldn't let the local braintrust run my bank account if I added money they would whine and if I withdrew money they would cry! All I am saying is can we please have a break from the everyday whining I mean sure some peeps don't like how its all going down with the Realms nowadays whatever but please do we have to put up with dry boring broken record player all the time WotC doesn't know what they are doing/I'm smarter than WotC/OMFG I haven't even read the adventure and I laready know it's all messed up/it's not business first it's the Realms first *****ing? If I want to hear *****ing I'll go throw a rock at my sisters watchem go whine to mom I don't need to come here for the same thing in every topic that is at least a little interesting. It doesn't matter to me if what Shadowdale looks like after Sharrans mess it up isn't on a map I'm pretty sure I can figure it out from what's in the adventure.
sillaric_culdanin 12-11-06, 05:24 AM	Wow... I hadn't checked on this lovely little thread in a while and look at what has happened. I will quickly restate that I for one will purchase and run these modules (I actually purchase every D&D branded product because I have the luxury, due to working very hard and having few other hobbies, to be a collector as well as a gamer). Yes, like many others here I'd love to get more regional or racial sourcebooks specific to the Realms, but hey, I'm still young and will likely watch the Realms progess to the 20th edition or so before I take a final dirt nap. From a business stand-point it seems to me that most racial sourcebooks in the future are likely to be Core rather than FR, as that way they can sell them to Eberron DMs/Players as well as FR folks, especially since FR has few, if any, creatures specific to it's own crystal sphere. At miscellany, I must say that while I agree with your thoughts regarding the new modules... you are what's wrong with this sort of gaming. In every hobby genre there is bound to be those that espouse the old school vs the new school (I know that this happens amongst wargamers, flight sim jockeys, train collectors, etc.) but it's those that approach the issue with a complete lack of disrepect for those that have come and played before that sparks flame wars on these boards. Truth be told, I don't think WotC gives a rat's tail-end what we think on these boards... WotC is a business and it's currently owned by an even bigger business (Hasbro, IIRC) and must continue to meet it's fiscal goals to survive. When TSR died, it nearly took D&D with it.. and then none of us would have the opportunity to flame the company that continues to enable all of our addictions on these boards that they provide at no charge to us. I plan to continue to support WotC in it's efforts and couldn't care less if my global buying strategy hurts our chances to see a specific regional sourcebook, but then again I run and play in games (both tabletop and Play-by-Post) set in a variety of settings, rather than just FR. At Dan, you and I see eye-to-eye alot, but don't agree on everything and as I've said in the past... the Realms are as much mine as Ed's or anyone else's... as are the rules provided... not from a fiscal standpoint, of course, but definately from in-practice day-to-day standpoint in my own life... all becaue I paid for them. I support both the poster that stated to make a change, be respectful and state your concerns the way a thinking adult would, but also... never forget that WotC's bottom line speaks to them the loudest and they will continue to release products that make the most efficient money. Also, as a final note, I own and am currently running Mysteries of the Moonsea and loving every minute of this much-maligned module... so maybe I'm the crazy one ;). Sleep well fellow gamers!
GothicDan 12-11-06, 12:35 PM	If I want to hear *****ing I'll go throw a rock at my sisters watchem go whine to mom I don't need to come here for the same thing in every topic that is at least a little interesting. Interesting how you ask for modifications to the CoC and you break it yourself by knowingly posting things that break the CoC (cursing). And you're allowed to complain about what you do and don't want to read on these boards (which none of us pay for, and is public) and we're not allowed to do the same about WotC's books (which we DO pay for, in the end)? Interesting. Anyway, the self-aggrandizing hypocrisy has gotten to a level even a little too high for me. I'll see you guys on another thread, and go do my studying now. Later.
Palpster 12-11-06, 12:52 PM	Sillaric_Culdanin: well said, although I think your positioning of Wizards is a bit one sided. Sure they are a company and need to make a profit, but there's a difference between the game-designers and the business execs, I reckon the first are (at least to some extend) interested in some of the things posted one here since they're all gamers as well (as witnessed on their respective sites). The latter might or might not be into the game, but are responsible for books actually making a buck or two. I'd like to imagine the difference anyway... As for the adventures themselves (back to the original post), I dig adventure modules since I've precious little time in my schedule to do a lot of preparing and researching, so yeah, I'm happy with these :D
The Heretic 12-11-06, 06:42 PM	Hey... can we make miscellany the new annoying villain in the third installment of this series?
miscellany 12-11-06, 11:48 PM	:lightbulb :cheer: :w00t: :love: As long as I get to be the one that offs Elminster. :plotting: Thank you Heretic you can worship whatever god you want in my book! :bow:
miscellany 12-12-06, 12:02 AM	(I actually purchase every D&D branded product because I have the luxury, due to working very hard and having few other hobbies, to be a collector as well as a gamer). May I have access to your bank account my pockets have only some lint and lip gloss at the moment. Pretty please? At miscellany, I must say that while I agree with your thoughts regarding the new modules... you are what's wrong with this sort of gaming. :embarrass In every hobby genre there is bound to be those that espouse the old school vs the new school <dot dot dot> but it's those that approach the issue with a complete lack of repect for those that have come and played before that sparks flame wars on these boards. You mean 'lack of respect' right<?> so anyway I think you just defined GothicDan and all the poo flinging lore monkeys I volunteer to get his user name on a Wiiki if you'll just give me permission to use this quote. ;) But yeah conflict does happen I just think of it like a whole buncha people go to hangout and talk Realmsstuff and there's always this jackass that butts in with the same hackneyed negative whining banter about the same issues and it ruins it for everyone and in real life that guy gets not so nicely told to go **** off but here you have to put up with it and it sucks. So I think I found a solution here goes: would everyone with a male organ please step off the planet? There, see how peaceful everything just got? :P Truth be told, I don't think WotC gives a rat's tail-end what we think on these boards... WotC is a business and it's currently owned by an even bigger business (Hasbro, IIRC) and must continue to meet it's fiscal goals to survive. When TSR died, it nearly took D&D with it.. and then none of us would have the opportunity to flame the company that continues to enable all of our addictions on these boards that they provide at no charge to us. I think confidently I will say businesses that are smart listen to what customers say yeah sure signal to noise <thanks Dad> around here is hi even depending on who you ask someon'es signal is someone elses noise so I still think they do listen because even the monkeys have good stuff to say look what Farear laid out in the Elminster topic nearby so I believe they hear us even though we don't think they do but we must not confuse hear with deciding to do what we say. the Realms are as much mine as Ed's or anyone else's... as are the rules provided... not from a fiscal standpoint, of course, but definately from in-practice day-to-day standpoint in my own life... all becaue I paid for them. Sillaric I think you have a smart method of doing things sorry If I teed you off I hope you have fun gaming and please have sweet dreams! Miss snotty nose misfit Miscellany
Brenigin 12-12-06, 02:55 AM	Hi Miscellany, Can you punctuate, please? Thanks.
Alediran 12-12-06, 08:09 AM	I'm sorry to tell you this Miscellany, but women are even more conflicting (the kind of I-backstab-competition-instead-of-an-honorable-fight) and my girlfriend is perfectly aware of this, she always says that, if in my apartment, instead of 3 men living, where 3 women, the house would fall apart.
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-12-06, 08:44 AM	Hi Miscellany, Can you punctuate, please? Thanks. Seconded. One punctuation mark per paragraph is definitely not enough. DB
GothicDan 12-12-06, 01:02 PM	So I think I found a solution here goes: would everyone with a male organ please step off the planet? Oh no! Then I'd have to date girls! EEEEWWWW!! ... Anyway, the majority of females I'm friends with hate other females, and hang out almost exclusively with males because they can't stand females' capricious *****yness, their overly subtle machinations, their vengefulness, and their propensity to be unable to maintain adequate control over their emotions. That's what they feel, mind you. Males, I think, do indeed have a natural urge to try to prove their worth over and over, to the point of stupidity (it's hardwired into our neurology), can be extremely egocentric and apathetic bastards (unless we were hunting in a 'pack,' we really didn't need to worry about each other, whereas females had to live with each other constantly), and have a sick fascination with gross odors. I'm glad I'm a 'mo. *Runs away again after being awake for over 24 hours straight, back to studying.*
GothicDan 12-12-06, 01:03 PM	I'm sorry to tell you this Miscellany, but women are even more conflicting (the kind of I-backstab-competition-instead-of-an-honorable-fight) and my girlfriend is perfectly aware of this, she always says that, if in my apartment, instead of 3 men living, where 3 women, the house would fall apart. Yup. Me and the rest of The Group in high school (MAN we were cool!) often speculated about what it'd be like to get a house together. We all agreed that the three girls would take out each other first, and then my two male best friends, and I'd be left over mostly due to my tendency to keep my head and avoid conflict whenever possible. (Excluding purely academic debates.)
miscellany 12-12-06, 10:35 PM	OK must slow down so the boys can catch up. Boys boys boys....you are smarter than I give you credit for. "Boys will dumb you down." --Mom. But we can't blame it all on you. As much as we fight us girls still love eachother in the end. I fight to bond. All you boys do is blow eachother up to bits. You fight to kill. Sometimes you catch us in the blast metaforicaly speaking. That sucks. Yeah yeah yeah a woman or girl on a tantrum can be devastatingly dangerous. Make you think end of the world is near. Writing slow is hard. No sign off. I'm sad now. Thank you for trying to read my writing.
johnkretzer 12-13-06, 02:31 AM	When did this become boys vs. girls? Sigh Anyway I agree with miscellany about the old schoolers vs the new schoolers. Not that I would want to put a gag on the old schoolers, they can express their opinion no matter how wrong they are.(That is just a joke). But my question is how can you people judge something you haven't seen yet? As I have already stated on this thread it is great that these are modules and not novels. The PCs actualy get to do something.
miscellany 12-13-06, 02:57 AM	Right on John. I agree. It is silly to get all schitzo without even reading or playing the darn module first. Three year old girls don't like being called by nicknames for other three year old girls. Recipe for disaster.
Alediran 12-13-06, 08:00 AM	I think you are still seeing yourself with a broken mirror, it's very common for women to start feuds for the smallest stupidities, like when a girl uses her friend's makeup without permission. While its extremely hard for boy to become bitter enemies, I've only seen this happen just two or three times in my whole life. @johnkretzer we pre-judge them because we have already experienced bad modules that make bad changes with stories not unlike this trilogy, we give an opinion based on experience, something you seem to lack at this moment. I much preffer novel because they give me ideas around them (chapters 3 & 4 of my ongoing campaign are centered in The Last Mythal trilogy), there are lots of things that happen at the same time and the novels don't cover them.
GothicDan 12-13-06, 09:39 AM	Well, Miscellany, I love boys. Seeing pretty boys in pain/angst makes me physically angry. ;) Must save all the boys... Yes... *Goes to take E&M Fields final now.*
johnkretzer 12-14-06, 02:30 AM	@johnkretzer we pre-judge them because we have already experienced bad modules that make bad changes with stories not unlike this trilogy, we give an opinion based on experience, something you seem to lack at this moment. I much preffer novel because they give me ideas around them (chapters 3 & 4 of my ongoing campaign are centered in The Last Mythal trilogy), there are lots of things that happen at the same time and the novels don't cover them. I have been playing in the Realms since it first came out. I have been playing D&D for 22 of my 32 years. I have probably forgotten more things about D&D then you have learned. My opinion of people should wait till the actualy read and play the modules before judging them is bases on that 22 years of "old schoolers" complaining about any souce book or module coming out based on a promotional blurb. Then when they actualy read it the sheepily say well it isn't that bad, or complain about the most inane thing. As to your comments about novels controling the game yes it is nice that your PCs can be on the side stage holding some NPCs cloak. It is also nice that sometimes the PCs are central stage. Which can never happen if you based their stories on someone else stories. Personaly I think WotC/TSR made one major mistake and that was advancing the timeline at all. They could still have had novel still but just have them set in the past.
Ramenth 12-14-06, 09:42 PM	I think you are still seeing yourself with a broken mirror, it's very common for women to start feuds for the smallest stupidities, like when a girl uses her friend's makeup without permission. While its extremely hard for boy to become bitter enemies, I've only seen this happen just two or three times in my whole life. Get out more? I see it happen just as often with guys as I do with girls. Edit: To all the people saying "Girls are <Bleh>", the same applies. Get out more. Yes, some girls are like that. Its laughable naive to think that every single girl is like that.
Dark Wizard 12-14-06, 11:20 PM	Personaly I think WotC/TSR made one major mistake and that was advancing the timeline at all. They could still have had novel still but just have them set in the past. Or at the very least, move the timeline slowly. Even at a 2:5 year progression rate, WotC has trouble keeping to that time progression.
GothicDan 12-16-06, 02:01 AM	Edit: To all the people saying "Girls are <Bleh>", the same applies. Get out more. Yes, some girls are like that. Its laughable naive to think that every single girl is like that. Girls are <bleh>. Boys are <bleh>. Evolutionary psychology is the tracking of psychological and neurological trends of the two genders, and specifically, how they generally differ from each other due to their different living conditions over many thousands (and millions) of years. It's an actual scientific field of research; females ACTUALLY, in general, are better at gross motor control; males are better at special perception. Anyone who thinks that emotions and the like aren't based entirely in neurological fact is, well... Naive. ;) Generalizations are wonderful tools for teaching and analysis. What's bad is when generalization becomes stereotypes. I thought we've moved past the age where we have to end every (obviously generic) statement about a group of people with "BUT NOT ALL OF THEM!" Then again, sometimes I live in an idylic realm where no one pays any regard to skin color, culture, ethnicity, religion, or the like. I'm the kind of gay guy that gets sickened by the gay rights parades ("TREAT US LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE LOOK WE'RE NAKED!") and the Femi-Nazis and aggressively pro-minority groups that only serve to further alienate all groups not belonging to them as "the vile others who oppressed us." Yeah, THAT'S certainly harmonious... (Misogynists are also not cool.) I guess this is why I'm part of the UNIVERSAL equality Facebook group. No group above another.