Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gula 04-10-06, 04:20 AM	What is the dawn cataclysm? When did it happen?
staples78 04-10-06, 08:24 AM	The Dawn Cataclysm was a war amongst the gods when Lathander tried to reshape the pantheon and become ruler of all the gods. A number of changes took place in the pantheon - Tyche was split into Tymora and Beshaba by Selune after being corrupted by Moander - Lathanders actions resulted in the death of Murdane who was a minor goddess of reason and pragmatism and Helm's lover Some have specualted that this was when Amaunator was reborn as Lathander and the war was an attempt to regain his power after the fall of Netheril. As for when it occurred, no actual date has been given (goings on of the gods are difficult to date) but it was some time between Karsus' Folly and the Fall of Myth Drannor. Others may be able to narrow the date down a bit further.
Old Sage 04-10-06, 08:40 AM	Faiths & Avatars, Faiths & Pantheons, the FRCS 3e (pg. 264)... You're never going to find a complete history of the Dawn Cataclysm, nor it's total effects. The most we have are bits and pieces scattered throughout the Realmslore. This is mostly due to the fact that writers at TSR/WotC haven't really attached much weight to the event. What we know -- Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there... Interestingly, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. So that puts the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century. However, there are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba. I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through. Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles). Murdane, Helm's lover and the goddess of Pragmatism and Reason also died during this event.
Lord Karsus 04-10-06, 09:04 AM	-That's about all that is ever going to be known about the event, since I recll someone- most likely Mr. Boyd- saying that there is no need to explain exactly what the Dawn Cataclysm was, since our mortal minds could never comprehend such doings of divine entities, or something to that effect.
gula 04-10-06, 02:03 PM	thank you all for the information :tiphat:
Krash 04-10-06, 07:31 PM	What we know -- Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there... Interestingly, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. So that puts the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century. It's not often that I disagree with the Old Sage, but we certainly do not know the truth of his first statement. Tyche splitting into Tymora and Beshaba does not logically lead to the statement that the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in the 8th century of Dalereckoning. Similarly, the use of the word 'presage' (defined below) is not a temporal indicator that indicates immediacy. The predictions of Nostradamus are said to have presaged WWII, centuries after his thoughts were published. Entry Word: presage Function: noun Text: 1 a feeling that something bad will happen <I had a nagging presage that the results of my medical tests would not be good> -- see PREMONITION 2 something believed to be a sign or warning of a future event <the sight of the first robin is always a welcome presage of spring> -- see OMEN We don't know when the DC occurred. We likely never will. All we know is that it happened. Let's just keep the dates out of it, for the sanity of all involved. :) -- George Krashos
Old Sage 04-10-06, 11:00 PM	It's not often that I disagree with the Old Sage, but we certainly do not know the truth of his first statement. Tyche splitting into Tymora and Beshaba does not logically lead to the statement that the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in the 8th century of Dalereckoning.I knew you'd say that George :P. The FRCS places the schism in Tyche's church in 8th century DR. That's where that date comes from. But perhaps me saying "What we know" may have been a little too definitive... yes. Regardless, it's more just random thinking on my part with regard to the Realmslore really -- and something tied to Eric's whole "out of time" theory. As I also mentioned above... we have references to Tyche after the Cataclysm which kind of throws out the above date I mentioned for the time of the Dawn Cataclysm.
Old Sage 04-10-06, 11:03 PM	We do know that Tyche split during the DC, and we know when the effects were felt in the Realms (and I'm sometimes of the opinion that perhaps the two new deities would start changing how they were worshipped almost immediately). Since Myth Drannor fell in the same century, and the DC presaged this fall, then it's quite reasonable to assume that the DC happened between 700 and 712 (or 714).
Old Sage 04-10-06, 11:09 PM	Then again... perhaps, as you say, presaged doesn't indicate any type of immediacy. If that's the case... then I'm content enough to believe that the event itself presaged MD's fall by several centuries perhaps. Maybe it occured after Netheril's Fall. Or between that and before the 1st century DR as you've suggested in the past.
Gray Richardson 04-10-06, 11:57 PM	Dating the Dawn Cataclysm is one of those fun games that crops up in the forums from time to time. It is made all the more difficult not only because of sparse references but also contradictory references. Eric Boyd has made a convincing case that godly time is independent from and occurs outside the timestream of mortal time. In that respect he contends that it is impossible to narrow the date of the Dawn Cataclysm any further than to say that it happened sometime between -100 DR to about 800 DR (a 900 year span). The Dawn Cataclsym is really a mythic metaphor for the unification of several separate human proto-pantheons into a unified Faerūnian pantheon which occured in parallel with the emergence of a unified Faerūnian culture, brought about mostly by the mixing and melding of various ethnic groups in the wake of the Chondathan diaspora. That said, it is still fun to try and suss out a date. Secrets of the Magister, written by Ed Greenwood himself, makes an offhand reference to the DC saying that Mystra established the office of the Magister in response to the events of the Dawn Cataclysm. This would seem to suggest a date no later than 136 DR, when the 2nd Magister took office. However, I suggest that this is not determinative. One could argue that Mystra, as goddess of Time, might have established the office of Magister in the past in anticipation and to help mitigate the effects of the future DC which under this theory would have happened at a later date. One could also argue that as goddess of magic (including divination) that Mystra (possibly with the help of Savras, or Azuth, or use of the time scrying artifact the Pale Tesseract) might have forseen the coming Dawn Cataclysm and so established the office of the Magister in response to her vision of the impending DC. Also, the events of the Dawn Cataclysm involve Azuth, and strongly suggest he was already ascended to godhood at the time, so I submit this as strong evidence that the DC must have taken place after 136 DR (the approximate date of Azuth's ascension. Another piece of evidence is that Lathander was a major player in the DC. By way of a complex chain of reasoning that I won't go into here, it is thought that Lathander cannot have arisen as a god until Amaunator had died. The date of Amaunator's death is mentioned in Faiths & Avatars as occuring about a millenium after the fall of Netheril. That would be circa 660 DR, placing the DC in the later half of the 600's or around the turn of the century 700 DR, which fits in nicely with the "presaged" the fall of Myth Drannor quote which gets bandied about a lot. However, contradictory evidence suggests that Lathander might have arisen much earlier, in one of the novels (I think maybe Elminster, the Making of a Mage perhaps) it mentions that Lathander was worshipped in 2nd century Athalantar, which seems to place a kink in the effort to date the DC. There are a few possible explanations. One resorts to the "godly time" theory which states that, much like the sun itself can be both setting and rising simultaneously in different timezones, that the faith of Lathander arose in Athalantar in the Heartlands much earlier than it arose in those geographic regions where Netherese culture still held sway. Another theory is that the "Lathander" of 2nd century Athalantar was really an alias for Amaunator in his Talfiric aspect (an ancient human culture in the Heartlands that was largely independent of Netherese influence). Another theory is that Lathander was the name of a separate Talfiric god who either took over from Amaunator after his death, or who merged with the reincarnated Amaunator and from whom the reborn Amaunator took his name. I'm sure there are other theories. We don't really know for sure. While the schism within the church of Tyche happened around 800 DR, we don't think she actually split into Beshaba and Tymora in the 800's. It is likely the split occured much earlier and that it took awhile for this knowledge to disseminate and propagate among her faithful. One last point is that the DC was given an actual date in one TSR product, the Forgotten Realms Conspectus, which dates the Dawn Cataclysm specifically at 161 DR. Most Realms designers seem to repudiate this date and deem it non-canonical, but nonetheless it is the only published date. If it were possible at all to date the DC, I myself would tend to be persuaded by the evidence that points to sometime between 660 DR and 712 DR. While I would prefer to think that dates certain should be ascertainable--and I would love to be able to date everything and place it within an official timeline--that said, I think you have to give a lot of weight to Eric Boyd's theory that some mythical events which occur in godly time cannot be neatly pinned down or fit within an exact mortal chronology. It may indeed be true that, as much as we would like to, we cannot narrow the DC down any further than between -100 DR and 800 DR.
Krash 04-11-06, 01:16 AM	Hey guys. Don't get too excited by the Tyche split in her church in 8th century Dalereckoning. It means exactly what it means. After all, I personally re-wrote that particular section in the FRCS. Before the re-write, that section was ALL about the DC. But we didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come so we changed it a little and I wrote it up differently. :) My preferred date is in the early 100s DR or so with the first real ramifications filtering through a century or so later. After all, Myth Drannor started to fall, the day after it was founded. :D ;) -- George Krashos
Old Sage 04-11-06, 01:27 AM	Hey guys. Don't get too excited by the Tyche split in her church in 8th century Dalereckoning.I don't... usually. But if I'm working with the DC for my own campaign... I sometimes tend to put more emphasis on that particular factoid than perhaps I should. My preferred date is in the early 100s DR or so with the first real ramifications filtering through a century or so later.I'll admit... it's somewhat more appropriate given the limited facts we have on the event itself. And both my and Gray's interpretations above can just as readily serve as points on where NOT to place the event of the DC. Given that... I'm willing to entertain the notion that the DC itself perhaps occured anywhere after the fall of Netheril to the first century DR or just thereafter.
Darth K'Trava 04-14-06, 06:01 PM	Some of this is based on whether or not one considers non-TSR sourcebooks canon or not..... Even those are perhaps rife with inconsistencies, especially if Ed didn't have a "Realms Bible" for his writers to follow....
Krash 04-14-06, 10:06 PM	Some of this is based on whether or not one considers non-TSR sourcebooks canon or not..... Even those are perhaps rife with inconsistencies, especially if Ed didn't have a "Realms Bible" for his writers to follow.... Which non-TSR sourcebooks talk about the DC? -- George Krashos
BrianCritchley 04-15-06, 12:46 PM	ya know, given the age of dieties they almost certinly move somewhat slower and more carefully then humans. it's entirely REASONABLE that the Dawn Catyclism BEGAN in 2nd century DR and climixed in the 8th century DR.
Gray Richardson 04-15-06, 08:24 PM	I somewhat agree with that. I think that is a strong possibility. Another possibility is that it may indeed have happened outside mortal time but certain aspects of the confrontation impinged on mortal time at certain points over the course of many centuries. The events might thus seem to have elapsed only for a few months or years from the viewpoint of the gods, while it seemed to endure for centuries from the viewpoint of mortals.
Old Sparky 04-15-06, 08:57 PM	When exactly did the Faerunian pantheon gain recognition as such? When did the individual pantheons that were united into the Faerunian pantheon cease being recognized as such? :rolleyes: Personally, I hate dismissive copout answers such as mortal minds not being able to comprehend the divine events or the myth of the gods existing outside the same timeframe as the mortals that worship them. Of course, being a god myself, I have the perspective to make such statements as, believe me, we're not as complicated and mysterious in our motives as mortals try to convince each other.
Old Sage 04-15-06, 09:06 PM	Another possibility is that it may indeed have happened outside mortal time but certain aspects of the confrontation impinged on mortal time at certain points over the course of many centuries. The events might thus seem to have elapsed only for a few months or years from the viewpoint of the gods, while it seemed to endure for centuries from the viewpoint of mortals.Eric's postulated "out-of-time" theory for the DC could perhaps be the bridge between the two points of view we've established here... The Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldly'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles). Thus, the DC occured early in the 100's DR -- out of time -- but it's actual effects did not eventuate in the Realms until the 8th century DR with the Tyche split as the pg. 264 entry suggests. This could also partially explain the DRAGON #228 entry about an unsplit Tyche existing in Athalantar... the events themselves had simply not manifested for Tyche at that point in the mortal realm. It's a messy partial solution... and I'm not entirely happy with the fact that it doesn't answer everything. As it is though... I'm likely to stick with my previous interpretation of placing the DC around the 8th century DR as most of the evidence and source material we've all discussed previously... suggests.
BrianCritchley 04-15-06, 09:45 PM	makes sense. if you have lsot empires of faerun corellate the date the crowns wars happened with the date given for when arashanee was cast out of the selderaine. apparently those two events do indeed have a link
Darth K'Trava 04-17-06, 07:57 PM	Which non-TSR sourcebooks talk about the DC? -- George Krashos As I don't own any of them, I couldn't tell you.