Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jasmith 10-12-07, 03:33 AM	So, they're Killing Haela Brighaxe. For many, this is probably just one more thing WTC designers are doing to screw up the Realms; but this little detail had special meaning for me, as I'm sure that there are a lot of similar little details that have special meaning for others. I've been playing D&D for 24 years. When the Grey Box first came out, I snatched it up and devoured it. Over the years I would spend hours reading about the Realms, and loved every minute of the time I spent there. I thought it would be a blast to DM a Realms campaign, but when the setting first came out I was running a long term homebrew. For my entire D&D career, I've been the main or only DM for whatever group I've played with, only rarely getting a chance to run a character. Usually, I wouldn't have it any other way. I love DMing, and I especially love creating and detailing Fantasy worlds. My main setting is 20 years old, and while I've always wanted to run a Realms campaign, my desire to extend and further develop my own world has always won out. So, my visits to the Realms were always by myself; reading the Lore of the Realms, as well as many wonderful novels. Other than my own main campaign setting, the Forgotten Realms is far and away my favorite fantasy world. It's richness has always been an inspiration, and Ed Greenwood's brilliance has always given me a shining example of World-Building done right, something to aspire towards in my own creative efforts. A few years ago, I had a player in our group who also enjoyed DMing. We played a Scarred Lands Campaign for quite some time, and I thoroughly enjoyed playing Father Zaedon, Priest of Chaos and Professional Gambler. When the DM announced that he was starting a new game set in the Realms I was as excited as I could be. In twenty years, I had never had a chance to run a character in the Realms, and eagerly set about to create a special character for my first FR game. It would have to be a Cleric. I love playing Clerics and since I was the only player who loved playing Clerics (Is this universal by the way? I almost always have to run an NPC cleric for my players) it was pretty much a given. I also wanted him to be Combat Oriented, and a bit different from my last Cleric. So, I decided to play a Dwarf, Uxar of the Kaxenar, a priest of Haela Brightaxe. The campaign was fairly short, Uxar only made it to 5th level before the DM moved out of town, and I was once again DMing for our group. Still, I had a lot of fun and hoped I would one day be able to run Uxar again. Highly doubtful now.:ahem: After a gaming hiatus of almost a year, I just started a new Campaign a few weeks ago. In between working on my game, I've been visiting RPG sites, message boards, downloading utilities, etc. I go away for a while, and all of a sudden I'm hit with the news about 4e. :uh-huh: It's too soon for another edition. 3.5's a bit cumbersome, but I'm perfectly fine with it, and would be for another 20 years or so. Makes me want to break out my AD&D books. But, as if that wasn't enough, I start reading about what they're planning for the Forgotten Realms setting. No need to belabor all the points that have already been raised. But I would like to know why Mr. Baker doesn't just create whatever setting it is he wants, instead of gutting and remaking one of the most beautiful works of art in modern Fantasy?:headexplo Mystra, the Weave, the people and places of the Realms. The setting doesn't need to be "fixed." And if the 4e changes in magic are so drastic and narrow as to require what is being done to the Realms, then they are probably too drastic for mine or any other campaign world.
Zanan 10-12-07, 07:05 AM	Heya ... rest assured, you're not the only one. They've slaughtered half the drow pantheon (and thus quite a number of patrons of PCs and NPCs alike in my campaigns) already. That is: they will, for it has not transpired as yet "in-game". Chris Perkins (the one who likes Orcus - no wonder Kiaransalee was doomed), the "FR Story Manager" recently wrote ... (6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes. You see, if you want Eberron and fewer deities, play Eberron. Greyhawk had dozens of deities, the FR too. There are fine sourcebooks already in place and a simple "brush-up" plus the use of C&P could have solved the "deity problem" in no-time. (I'd had done that for free, mind you!) If not in one big book, maybe in two or a couple of web-enhancements. And had they chucked those utterly unnecessary "divine stats", there would even have been more place in F&P. IMHO there was no need for less deities, nor a need for killing those unwanted off. The big problem seems to have been that players who attempted their luck with a cleric for the first time had a problem with choosing the right one and surrendered in front of the sheer numbers. But look, if you make your driver's license, you do not give up driving when confronted with the numbers of cars available to you, do you? No, you start reading and get your nose into the right books, mags, et al.
Charles Phipps 10-12-07, 07:53 AM	For me, the obvious thing to do is request your DM a chance to raise Haela from the dead in your games. :-) Dead Gods in reverse!
Suin Bahhar 10-12-07, 08:12 AM	A little planar travel to the Guardian of the Dead Gods, Anubis, a suitable offering, and volia Heala Brightaxe is revived. Or place your realms in a earlier time where she is alive and kicking duergar butt.
Bluenose 10-12-07, 08:23 AM	Go on an adventure to the Outer Planes to find the ruins of Hammergloom (is that the duergar god's realm?). Find the corpse of your deity. Recover the great artefacts of her faith, bring them together with the corpse and perform a great and terrible ritual. POOF One resurrected dwarf deity.
Butterface 10-12-07, 05:24 PM	I guess I don't see what your beef is since you said yourself that you're not playing in a FR game, you haven't been in quite some time, and you're not running an FR game. Do you just object to it on a conceptual level, as a fan of the lore? Don't get me wrong, that's a totally valid viewpoint if that's the case. But it seems to me that you're angry over them changing the Realms in a way that messes with a character you played years ago for a very short time. That seems like a fairly unreasonable standard by which to judge if what "Richard Baker" is doing is wrong for the Realms, if that's the case. And really (and this is to all the Richard Baker haters), its quite silly that you guys think Baker is on some kind of one man crusade to destroy the Realms. Just because he's the WotC employee that actually talks to the online community about the Realms, doesn't mean he makes all the decisions. It's a classic case of shooting the messenger. :rolleyes:
Zanan 10-12-07, 05:51 PM	Butterface ... I don't think there are that many Rich Baker - haters around here. It is more like people know what will happen - if only to a little extend - and see their heroes for those past years at the table will get a rough awakening. You can obviously pretend that in "your own Realms" the events will not occur, but that may only work in some campaigns and that ill-feeling is still there. On the other hand, some have pointed out - me included - that we actually do not know what will happen after e.g. the Spellplague. Or whether Haela may indeed be ressurrected. We simply don't know as yet. I doubt that the Wizards / designers will ruin the Realms, whatever they do. But appeasing words like "you will like it, rest assured" will do nothing to console someone on here either. It's like in football (soccer-version): Chairman decides that it is time for a change at the end of a good season, so ... we sack the manager (e.g. Mystra), sell our best midfielders (like the Chosen and essentially all the wizards), and the goal-machine-striker No. 1 too (say the other gods). And then he walks into the press room and says: "Look folks, it was time for a change, but rest assured, by the start of next season, all will be fine and well!" Anyone with half a cup of a sports brain will know the answer to that, while the rest will exactly know what I am talking about. The chairman could be right, but the supporters will be seething nonetheless and success next season is written in the stars, but under such auspices, on a starless night ...
Brewhammer 10-12-07, 06:45 PM	It's too soon for another edition. 3.5's a bit cumbersome, but I'm perfectly fine with it, and would be for another 20 years or so. Makes me want to break out my AD&D books. But, as if that wasn't enough, I start reading about what they're planning for the Forgotten Realms setting. Mystra, the Weave, the people and places of the Realms. The setting doesn't need to be "fixed." And if the 4e changes in magic are so drastic and narrow as to require what is being done to the Realms, then they are probably too drastic for mine or any other campaign world. Just do what many of us will do - ignore 4E altogether, and ignore 4E FR products. Just keep playing with 3.5, change the parts you find cumbersome and keep playing whatever timeframe you want in FR. The Great Godsdying, the Spellplague - none of that crap ever has to hit your own campaign :)
Melblen_Cairn 10-12-07, 11:47 PM	It's been said before in the past way back before message boards. It's your world, and you can do with it as you see fit. I am sure any of the designers will tell you that even. I am one to also like Haela Brightaxe having put a Dwarven cleric of hers as an NPC into the party with my game group and she died rather valiantly. It's someone my players still refer too every now and again. On the other side of the coin you could run with the change. When your cleric's patron deity passes tossing that group of followers into turmoil. Who will take over for her and which followers will rise to the occasion to guide the rest of the faithful to the worship of a new patron deity. Some real deep RPing there for your character.
msatran 10-13-07, 01:11 AM	Uh, there actually ARE that many Richard Baker haters around here. Richard Baker must be stopped.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 03:11 AM	I actualy don't mind that they did this...it was in character for the dwarves...but it does bring things to a issue. 1) So why do gray dwaves get saved and the drow get damned? (While it might be a reversal here but it doesn't look good for Eilistraee) 2) It ends a conflict(like most of the conflicts there are ending) that could have been one of a hundred varied conflicts to use in a D&D game. Now I don't see alot of conflict to choose from. Though this is a wait see issue. 3) In the Orc King it is hinted at that Moradin agrees with the kingdom of civilized orcs. Despite years of attack and crimes by thos orc....yet they went in and killed two of their own...instaed of maybe trying to redeem them...this is confusing.
Zanan 10-13-07, 07:14 AM	Uh, there actually ARE that many Richard Baker haters around here. Richard Baker must be stopped. You should not pin your anger at one person. He is not the only one "responsible", so to speak. Then again, it is not exactly a good place to went your anger in the way you do either. Apart from the fact that - in essence - they can do with their Realms whatever they like and you should come to terms with the fact that one day in the future, the FR will be scrapped altogether. It an unalienable truth in life, rest assured.
Butterface 10-13-07, 10:28 AM	Uh, there actually ARE that many Richard Baker haters around here. Richard Baker must be stopped. See! :rofl:
msatran 10-13-07, 02:17 PM	The point is, when you have an overseer who says Yea or nay to stuff, if everyone thinks it's stupid except the guy in charge, and it happens anyway, you've made a bad decision. The problem is that you can't design fantasy worlds and have them be consistent within a group. I've tried to do this with just four people. No agreement is possible. But in this case, Mr. Baker is the lead designer and he has the power to say yea or nay. Why in god's name would anyone choose Cyric in a box over Mystra on the half-shell? At least Mystra on the half-shell sells bikini babes. Cyric in a box sells...insanity once you open the box. Gee. That's a lot of fun to read about. The whole thing about Shar and Cyric killing Mystra burns me in half a dozen ways. Why have clerics anymore? That's right. After this, why WOULD you have clerics anymore? These gods are not WORTHY of worship with the way they're being written. They're like angry eight year old schoolchildren with a crush on their teacher and one hand in their pants while they answer math questions. How can Ao even tolerate this nonsense? Unless somehow, Ao just yawned and said "Okay, guys. I'm going out of dimension for a pipe break. Don't ruin the house when I'm gone....CYRIC! WHAT HAVE YOU AND LITTLE SHAR BEEN DOING IN MY COSMOLOGY! GO TO YOUR ROOM!" This is really stupid. But that's how it reads. Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 02:34 PM	The point is, when you have an overseer who says Yea or nay to stuff, if everyone thinks it's stupid except the guy in charge, and it happens anyway, you've made a bad decision. Not everyone believes its a bad decision. I don't. Also, I've learned to pretty much ignore everything fans say since I've never actually heard a bit of praise for ANYTHING on these boards. These gods are not WORTHY of worship with the way they're being written. They're like angry eight year old schoolchildren with a crush on their teacher and one hand in their pants while they answer math questions. No, :censored: really? You just noticed that? Something that's been a theme in the campaign setting since The ToT? The gods aren't anthropomorphisms of good like Dragonlance or mysterious like Eberron. They're Greek Myth gods through and through. It's a running theme in Toril that the humans know better than them and always have.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 02:41 PM	No, :censored: really? You just noticed that? Something that's been a theme in the campaign setting since The ToT? The gods aren't anthropomorphisms of good like Dragonlance or mysterious like Eberron. They're Greek Myth gods through and through. It's a running theme in Toril that the humans know better than them and always have. All except Cyric...oh did I miss the Greek myth where Ares killed Athena? Also just just hit the nail on the head why people hated the ToT. You know the FR existed before that right?
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 02:44 PM	Not everyone believes its a bad decision. I don't. Also, I've learned to pretty much ignore everything fans say since I've never actually heard a bit of praise for ANYTHING on these boards. Also this is wrong...really wrong. Both the GHotR has recieved high praise except for the changes they are doing now. And the Orc King has also recieved praise as a fantasy novel...though not as a FR novel. I personaly have always praised things I like on these boards. It is just that this not that great of a change in some people's opinion.
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 04:46 PM	All except Cyric...oh did I miss the Greek myth where Ares killed Athena? Also just just hit the nail on the head why people hated the ToT. You know the FR existed before that right? Perhaps you saw the myth where Set killed Osiris? And it's existed far longer WITH IT. I came to FR because of the TOT and it's a part of *MY* Realms now. I like Maztica, Kara-Tur, and other locations that don't exist in the original Realms. I refuse to be ashamed of it. Also this is wrong...really wrong. Both the GHotR has recieved high praise except for the changes they are doing now. And the Orc King has also recieved praise as a fantasy novel...though not as a FR novel. I personaly have always praised things I like on these boards. It is just that this not that great of a change in some people's opinion. I heard countless complaints about the Great Tree and now that we're likely going back to the Wheel, people are still complaining. I think fans would receive more attention if they complained less about what they disliked and praised more what they did.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 10:31 PM	Perhaps you saw the myth where Set killed Osiris? Oh did Set get his stuff? Also recall the Myth that had Osiris brought back to live? Gods didn't die in the Myths or stay that way. If you really look at the pantheon is based very loosely on most European pantheon...also having a Norse god acting like the Greek god is just wrong...very wrong. And I think this lead to...I can even remember who did the ToT anymore, to write the ToT like he did. The FR pantheon though maybe based on our Mythology had been orginal. Now it is just like Greek Mythology...how is this better? And it's existed far longer WITH IT. I came to FR because of the TOT and it's a part of *MY* Realms now. I like Maztica, Kara-Tur, and other locations that don't exist in the original Realms. I refuse to be ashamed of it. And you shouldn't ve ashamed just understand not everyone wants what you want. I know many groups that don't treat the FR as infantile children, that doesn't mean their Realms is any less than yours. I just don't get how anybody could play a cleric in your game without it being for the power.... I heard countless complaints about the Great Tree and now that we're likely going back to the Wheel, people are still complaining. I think fans would receive more attention if they complained less about what they disliked and praised more what they did. Actualy no we are getting the tree melted down to soup. I like to call it the new Planar Soup theory of D&D cosomolgy. :D But anyway you are right except that right now us fans who were happy just got told otherwise. Because they are catering everything to the complaints...like those who complained about there being too many gods, or the Mystra and the 7 Sisters are too powerful, or Cyric is treated too much as a laughing stock( which I don't get you don't mind the entire pantheon being made a laughing stock but almost take personal offense at Cyric being treated the same way? ). So I feel I have to complain. Also it is human nature to give complaints( or as the newest retail word for it: Customer Concerns) and be silent if everything is great.
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 11:13 PM	If you really look at the pantheon is based very loosely on most European pantheon...also having a Norse god acting like the Greek god is just wrong...very wrong. Yeah, a Norse God killing a Good God and triggering the Apocalypse is impossible. which I don't get you don't mind the entire pantheon being made a laughing stock but almost take personal offense at Cyric being treated the same way? ). So I feel I have to complain. It's an all or nothing business. Either everyone is incredibly competent and deserving of their divine portfolios or everyone is at the whims of a bunch of crazy weirdos. Making Cyric an idiot yet somehow one the gods are terrified of doesn't work for me.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 11:43 PM	Yeah, a Norse God killing a Good God and triggering the Apocalypse is impossible. As the fact we are still here this didn't happen.... It's an all or nothing business. Either everyone is incredibly competent and deserving of their divine portfolios or everyone is at the whims of a bunch of crazy weirdos. Making Cyric an idiot yet somehow one the gods are terrified of doesn't work for me. I agree...to a point. Raising Cyric seemed like a mistake to me...a event that wasn't even consistent with the other events in ToT...I mean can you really say that Bane was acting outside his portfolio? Yet he got left for dead yet Torm was revived for acting as his portfolio...:confused:
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 12:04 AM	As the fact we are still here this didn't happen.... That's because that was the Old World. :-) But Loki did murder Baldur with Mistletoe and get away with it. I agree...to a point. Raising Cyric seemed like a mistake to me...a event that wasn't even consistent with the other events in ToT...I mean can you really say that Bane was acting outside his portfolio? Yet he got left for dead yet Torm was revived for acting as his portfolio... The "Acting within Portfolio" was established in Prince of Lies. But what it boiled down to is that Bane and Mykrul had committed pretty much the ultimate blasphemy by trying to overthrow Ao and he smacked them down for it.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 12:29 AM	That's because that was the Old World. :-) But Loki did murder Baldur with Mistletoe and get away with it. Except wasn't he also brought back? I mean it has been a awhile since I read mythology, and never really as entertainment more as a study of ancient people. The "Acting within Portfolio" was established in Prince of Lies. But what it boiled down to is that Bane and Mykrul had committed pretty much the ultimate blasphemy by trying to overthrow Ao and he smacked them down for it. Well what does Ao expect from the god of Tyrants? Personaly I think I hate the invention of Ao most of all... Also Ao let them steal it so he could 'teach' the other gods a lesson that was invented to be able to tell this story...I never saw any thing in 1st edition Realms that indicated the gods didn't care about their worshippers. Which brings up another fact. Ao cast the gods down because they were to busy with the infighting( which again there was no previous mention of it). What the heck is Cyric killing Mystra if nothing but infighting?
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 12:35 AM	1. Nope. Actually, the end resulted in the "Final Death" of all the Gods in the end with the destruction of the world. All of the Norse deities ended up quite dead in the end. 2. I may not be the one to use that argument on. I can't :censored: stand the pantheons where the gods act godly. I'd be playing Greyhawk if Forgotten Realms ditched the pettiness and spite of FR gods. This is High Fantasy. The Gods should make Discworld gods blush with their arrogance.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 12:50 AM	1. Nope. Actually, the end resulted in the "Final Death" of all the Gods in the end with the destruction of the world. All of the Norse deities ended up quite dead in the end. So it looks like this is the Realms amargeddon(which by the was a based on propheise not a actualy event...as there are still people who worship the norse pantheon I think they would disagree that this event has happened.) Also it eem that Loki's action resulted in his death too...a fitting punishment. 2. I may not be the one to use that argument on. I can't :censored: stand the pantheons where the gods act godly. I'd be playing Greyhawk if Forgotten Realms ditched the pettiness and spite of FR gods. This is High Fantasy. The Gods should make Discworld gods blush with their arrogance. Can you name high fantasy( besides the way the Realms are written now) where the gods act like infantile children? Also it wasn't a arguement. It was my perference. The Greek Gods had a advantage over the Realms gods though...they didn't actualy exist in the reality they served...The FR gods do.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 01:00 AM	Also it wasn't a arguement. It was my perference. The Greek Gods had a advantage over the Realms gods though...they didn't actualy exist in the reality they served...The FR gods do. Well, you mentioned the above with the Norse pagans. I'd point out this is controversial with others. (And actually, I think some sects believe the Norse Ragnarok has occurred and we're in the new world after it) Yeah, but I don't go over to Dragonlance and say "Dammit, why the Hell isn't Paladine more of a hardass? Why does he have to be all wise and stuff" or tell the Eberron people their Sovereign Host should show up in avatar form to push around their PCs.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 02:01 AM	Yeah, but I don't go over to Dragonlance and say "Dammit, why the Hell isn't Paladine more of a hardass? Why does he have to be all wise and stuff" or tell the Eberron people their Sovereign Host should show up in avatar form to push around their PCs. True I wouldn't either...and I wouldn't kick down you door and hold a gun to your telling you to make your gods more mature. Though I would never play a cleric in your game. But if you know the ToT things that indicated the gods are infantile...and the 2 to 3(?) books that illustrate them as children then I don't see anything else that indicates them to infantile...though sure some of them are fickle(Tymora), some of them are self rightous(Lathender), some of them are Petty(Sune and her no ugly people rule). But to me these traits doesn't mean they have to be infantile as these traits are found in adults.) I guess our difference is that I look at the flaws though the lenses that they characters have depth and you just decide to write it off as child like behavior( though I don't get how you can say that Eldath ot Illmater are infantile). Both ways work aslong as they don't do what they just did. Now my way is shot all to hell. Like I said before the beauty of the Realms has been that there was roon for interpertation so it can fit your style of play. I just don't see it that way anymore.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 02:13 AM	Though I would never play a cleric in your game. I've got some great Cleric quotes in our game. * "I don't worship Tyr. I worship what Tyr represents." "Isn't that blasphemy?" "No, because Tyr does the same thing." * "The gods made us in their image. Now you know what's wrong with the world." * "I don't believe in the gods." "You're the Chosen of Kelemvor!" "Apparently, he liked my ability to judge character." * "Elminster would make a great God of Wizardry." "He couldn't." "Why?" "He knows exactly what would happen to him." * "Torm is not perfect but he strives. What else could I ask of him?" * "Lord Cyric, please stay on topic." * Fzoul: Lord Bane, I can't do that. Bane: WHAT!? YOU ARE MY CHOSEN! YOU WILL DO WHAT I SAY! Fzoul: I gave my word. But to me these traits doesn't mean they have to be infantile as these traits are found in adults. I actually described it to my players as "The Gods aren't actually petty, so much as extraordinarilly one minded. The deities who were once human are the most open to changing themselves but the gods are mostly anthromorphizations. Humankind has helped shape what they are." "The sea is fickle, mischevious, lusty, jealous, and lusty. That's because of what water is partially but also because of what sailors have made Umbarlee." I said before the beauty of the Realms has been that there was roon for interpertation so it can fit your style of play. I just don't see it that way anymore. To be fair, all we have is Tyr killing Helm in a duel that's infantile behavior if you've excused everything else. For all we know, Helm was infected with insane rampaging illness or something the like
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 02:38 AM	I've got some great Cleric quotes in our game. * "I don't worship Tyr. I worship what Tyr represents." "Isn't that blasphemy?" "No, because Tyr does the same thing." * "The gods made us in their image. Now you know what's wrong with the world." * "I don't believe in the gods." "You're the Chosen of Kelemvor!" "Apparently, he liked my ability to judge character." * "Elminster would make a great God of Wizardry." "He couldn't." "Why?" "He knows exactly what would happen to him." * "Torm is not perfect but he strives. What else could I ask of him?" * "Lord Cyric, please stay on topic." * Fzoul: Lord Bane, I can't do that. Bane: WHAT!? YOU ARE MY CHOSEN! YOU WILL DO WHAT I SAY! Fzoul: I gave my word I actually described it to my players as "The Gods aren't actually petty, so much as extraordinarilly one minded. The deities who were once human are the most open to changing themselves but the gods are mostly anthromorphizations. Humankind has helped shape what they are." "The sea is fickle, mischevious, lusty, jealous, and lusty. That's because of what water is partially but also because of what sailors have made Umbarlee." To be honest it might be that we just have very different veiws on religion. I don't mean to belittle you by that. You look at the gods as mythological figures...I tend to look at them as religous figures. As I said we just have different veiw points. I think I would have been a aitheist if I was alive in ancient Greece To be fair, all we have is Tyr killing Helm in a duel that's infantile behavior if you've excused everything else. For all we know, Helm was infected with insane rampaging illness or something the like Except Helm was acting all crazy. Also I veiw Cyric killing Mystra just a bad ending to Cytic's infantile hatered of Mystra. Also I liked Mystra better than Cyric as a charactere anytime of the day. I realize that sometimes characters you like have to die they should have something meaningful happen that is a positive... If you look at like as a story I would have propably just thrown the book across the room and throw out everything. As of right now I might just do that if Eilistraee comes to a bad end. Also I realize you like Cyric and I don't mean any personal offense at that. It seems that you are little sensitive at times when it comes to people disagreeing with preference.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 02:43 AM	To be honest it might be that we just have very different veiws on religion. I don't mean to belittle you by that. You look at the gods as mythological figures...I tend to look at them as religous figures. As I said we just have different veiw points. I think I would have been a aitheist if I was alive in ancient Greece Well I consider Ao to be "God God" but the religion in the Realms is one devoid of faith because the idea of faith is a pretty stupid one in a setting where nothing needs to be taken on Faith. But different strokes. I think the Realms are meant to be a very strongly humanist setting, oddly. I say this as a very religious man in real life. Also I realize you like Cyric and I don't mean any personal offense at that. It seems that you are little sensitive at times when it comes to people disagreeing with preference. I'm actually not sensitive at all, I just sometimes feel the need to not give ground on issues that seem so one sided on boards. Someone has to represent firmly, I feel, the other side of the issue. As for Midnight, I absolutely loved her. Never in a 1000 years would I have killed her, let alone at Cyric's hands. Now it's done though, it's time to think about the pieces.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 03:03 AM	Well I consider Ao to be "God God" but the religion in the Realms is one devoid of faith because the idea of faith is a pretty stupid one in a setting where nothing needs to be taken on Faith. But different strokes. I think the Realms are meant to be a very strongly humanist setting, oddly. I say this as a very religious man in real life.. I get where you are coming from...still disagree with it...or other slternatives can just be as fun... I'm actually not sensitive at all, I just sometimes feel the need to not give ground on issues that seem so one sided on boards. Someone has to represent firmly, I feel, the other side of the issue. Then you might appreciate why I think the gods be a little bit more then they are treated... As for Midnight, I absolutely loved her. Never in a 1000 years would I have killed her, let alone at Cyric's hands. Now it's done though, it's time to think about the pieces. I just did not like the reason I was given....which can be find here... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=702942&page=22 I just don't understand the first two at all. For a shared world that is also RPG setting this just shot down half of the campaigns out there. The rest are just misperceptions and just aren't true. With the last being a very small carrot. You see why I lack faith in a designer team that fixed a problem then insists it is still there? Either they are dumb or just dishonest. Both are traits I do not place my faith in. (Hey maybe they just take after your FR gods).
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 03:09 AM	1. It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Cyric's betrayal begun in the Time of Troubles series. Time to move on and tell new stories about Cyric. 2. It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Shar's jealousy and desire to seize the portfolio of magic. Time to move on and tell new stories about Shar. ??? How do you not understand the bad guys losing divine opposition and thus needing the PCs to oppose them more?
Rauric 10-14-07, 08:12 AM	Certain gods dying might not effect the Realms much at all so in your game just have the dwarf pantheon live. Mystra might be tougher to do this with but it can still be done.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 01:10 PM	??? How do you not understand the bad guys losing divine opposition and thus needing the PCs to oppose them more? They did not say so the PCs need to oppose them. They said to tell More stories about them...which means more novels. I think that is my problem with gods acting on their own. I think the gods should work though worshippers. (Most high fantasy has this) Instead of Cyric killing Mystra. He has worshippers try to make her weaker on Toril. Mystra followers opposes this. That way PCs actions actualy matter.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 03:03 PM	??? How do you not understand the bad guys losing divine opposition and thus needing the PCs to oppose them more? Also the way you have Cyric set up in your world how in all that is holy can PCs beat him or even oppose him? As you have described him he is the best there is? Also don't forget the fact that to kill a god the PCs need to deal with the way they are stated...what level do you run your games too? Remeber during the ToT the gods are not at full strength....they were reduce to a level where the PCs had a chance to beat them....after it they went back to nigh untouchable...especialy in their domains...you do know a lesser deity auto wins against a greater deity in their own domains right?
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 03:21 PM	Also the way you have Cyric set up in your world how in all that is holy can PCs beat him or even oppose him? As you have described him he is the best there is? Also don't forget the fact that to kill a god the PCs need to deal with the way they are stated...what level do you run your games too? Our current game has Cyric having his church Cloned Gondegal using a lock of his hair that was buried with one of the old man's many mistresses. Cyric thus has created a "Once and Future King" type scenario where he's started a revolution in Arabel. Meanwhile, Dag Zoreth (our PCs frequent nemesis), has allied with the Fire Knives and the exiled Cormaeril family to start murdering members of the Pro-Obarskyr aristocracy before replacing them with dopplegangers. Finally, Cyric has appeared to a Hill Giant worshipper of his in a vision and started giving the man visions of a giant Empire in Cormyr. The man's unnatural charisma has actually got the Frost and Fire Giant Kings of the Stonelands to ally with him for a massive invasion from the North. I've already got a great scene set up where Cyric will appear to them in a tavern and gloat. When they, hopefully, ask why the Hell he's started this massive move against Cormyr. The Dark Lord's response will be.... "He, I woke up last week and thought 'Cormyr really bugs me'." :-) If the PCs save the nation, then he'll have moved onto his next bit of Mischief. That's the God of Strife for you.
Gray Richardson 10-14-07, 04:01 PM	I decided to play a Dwarf, Uxar of the Kaxenar, a priest of Haela Brightaxe. The campaign was fairly short, Uxar only made it to 5th level before the DM moved out of town, and I was once again DMing for our group. Still, I had a lot of fun and hoped I would one day be able to run Uxar again. Highly doubtful now.I think you might be failing to consider a few options that would make your player just as viable, if not more interesting to roleplay. Here are a few suggestions: 1) Moradin or some aligned god may adopt Haela's name as an alias, and thus will likely continue to answer prayers and grant spells in her persona. It is possible that her worshipers and her clergy may not be aware of the switch, and so a cleric of Haela could continue to function and be effective regardless of her death. In fact, this could offer some roleplaying opportunities if the DM wants to allow the cleric to become aware that something has changed or feels wrong with his relationship to his god. The DM might give him some hints of her death, and this could in turn lead to a lot of different story ideas, that could involve reuniting the church under the new god as news of her death spreads, or perhaps an epic quest to try and resurrect her. 2) The Servant of the Fallen feat can allow you to worship a dead god and get spells as normal. 3) Or you could simply roleplay out the changes in-game, have the character lose his god-given cleric abilities, act out and deal with the grief of his god dying and what that means to him personally and professionally. How does that affect the hierarchy of his temple? Would he and/or his temple convert over to worship of Moradin or some other dwarf god? How does the nearby temple of Moradin deal with yours or your temple's conversion? Do they welcome you with open arms? Accept you grudgingly? Try to make you start over from the bottom? Or jealously oppose you or your temple trying to compete with them for worshipers and the flow of donations, monopolies on healing potions, magic weapon production, etc. While ignoring the changes is also an option, I think that the death of Haela plot point can potentially offer a stunning array of different story arcs that would help spotlight such a character and allow for some very fun, and interesting roleplaying. There is no reason at all that players cannot profit greatly from the death of their god. If you are in a game to have fun, then this is just the kind of drama that I think would add a lot of spice and fun to a campaign. ;)
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 04:47 PM	They did not say so the PCs need to oppose them. They said to tell More stories about them...which means more novels. I think that is my problem with gods acting on their own. I think the gods should work though worshippers. (Most high fantasy has this) Instead of Cyric killing Mystra. He has worshippers try to make her weaker on Toril. Mystra followers opposes this. That way PCs actions actualy matter. I think you underestimate what "telling stories about them" means. While its possible that they could be referring to novels and there's definitely stories to e told that fans will buy, I think it's more an issue of game works with things like Cormyr: Rending of the Weave which chronicles Cyric and Shar's plot to destroy magic users.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 04:59 PM	I think you underestimate what "telling stories about them" means. While its possible that they could be referring to novels and there's definitely stories to e told that fans will buy, I think it's more an issue of game works with things like Cormyr: Rending of the Weave which chronicles Cyric and Shar's plot to destroy magic users. Even worse to natural growth...we know how those modules end. They win. Because we know how it turns out. This stifle growth and creativity. One of the reasons why I hate modules with big impact in the world is that they have to assume that the module ends one way. To get that modules have to be very railroady even more so then normal modules.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 05:12 PM	What? What the Hell are you talking about? The modules are completely open ended. That's because they don't have any ending but what your PCs create.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 05:23 PM	What? What the Hell are you talking about? The modules are completely open ended. That's because they don't have any ending but what your PCs create. We know in the end Shar and Cyric wins. It doesn't matter how those modules end. Shar and Cyric will sneak into her domain and kill her and destroy the Weave. We also know that no matter what the PCs do the Nerthil Empire will rise again. To me that is pretty much close ended.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 06:21 PM	We know in the end Shar and Cyric wins. It doesn't matter how those modules end. Shar and Cyric will sneak into her domain and kill her and destroy the Weave. We also know that no matter what the PCs do the Nerthil Empire will rise again. To me that is pretty much close ended. ??? Shar and Cyric LOSE in those modules by all accounts. Mystra is utterly unimportant, she's a Neutral Deity. The PCs are the champions of good, not her. And Netheril rising isn't bad, if Shar gets smashed down by the PCs. Seriously, how are you supposed to respect Cyric and Shar as enemies if they lose all the time?
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 11:11 PM	??? Shar and Cyric LOSE in those modules by all accounts. Mystra is utterly unimportant, she's a Neutral Deity. The PCs are the champions of good, not her. And Netheril rising isn't bad, if Shar gets smashed down by the PCs. Seriously, how are you supposed to respect Cyric and Shar as enemies if they lose all the time? They don't...they have handed defeats to the PCs sometimes(well there agents). I mean the PCs always don't win in my game. They do loose. Or gain a victory that isn't as clear cut. Also hey there is nothing to say you can't have evil PCs. Well except for the fact that they just removed the good protagonist... Also how can you have a adventure that has to do with the weave and not have it do with Mystra? Besides I personaly have no interest in playing in a module that has a elaborate plot to destroy the Weave when a few years latter they just kill Mystra...why not just kill Mystra then? It just makes no sense... Also about the Netheril rising is not so bad except they decide to take over a area in the Realms up to this point was left up to the DM to develope.
Green Elven Vampire 10-14-07, 11:18 PM	Does anyone know if they killed off Erevan Ilesere? Die 4ED DIE!!!
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 11:43 PM	Also how can you have a adventure that has to do with the weave and not have it do with Mystra? I'm going to run it this weekend. This time, Shar and Cyric are trying to rebuild the Shadow Weave by assembling Weave capable magicians. In the end, the player characters once they can thwart it will be able to create a new Weave from their work. One's that's claimed by the God of their choice. (Kelemvor becomes, essentially, the FR Wee Jass is the most likely outcome in our games)
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 11:55 PM	Does anyone know if they killed off Erevan Ilesere? Die 4ED DIE!!! No word yet. But proably it is not good...though who know they might see reason...
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 11:58 PM	I'm going to run it this weekend. This time, Shar and Cyric are trying to rebuild the Shadow Weave by assembling Weave capable magicians. In the end, the player characters once they can thwart it will be able to create a new Weave from their work. One's that's claimed by the God of their choice. (Kelemvor becomes, essentially, the FR Wee Jass is the most likely outcome in our games) Tell me how it turns out. Because I think something got lost in the back and forth is that I do respect your concepts. As I hope you respect my concepts.
Charles Phipps 10-15-07, 01:04 AM	Yeah, your stuff works fine. I was just saying. Edit: Of course, this is all immaterial as I intend to just have Mystra brought back to life in a remake of For Duty or Deity. The player characters discover that Cyric is holding Mystra's mortal soul, every ex-mortal has one, prisoner in his domain after he kidnapped it with his version of Godsbane. A joke on Masks' prank on him. Azuth will demote himself to a Demipower to restore her godhood and she basically starts slowly restoring the Weave. Cyric, of course, can't destroy her because he's imprisoned in his realm. Meanwhile, she takes up residence with Selune. If the players succeed.
Zanan 10-15-07, 06:15 AM	I think you might be failing to consider a few options that would make your player just as viable, if not more interesting to roleplay. Here are a few suggestions: 2) The Servant of the Fallen feat can allow you to worship a dead god and get spells as normal. Indeed, if it gets shifted into 4E. I'd welcome such a move, if only for those people not willing to give up on their "old" deities "just because" the setting does not support them any longer. There's enough "old" material on them to be used (most likely very easily too). Given that a character needs a feat to get into contact with the deity again (and someone who tells him/her that somesuch is actually possible), I'd further suggest that the cleric in question actually switches to archivist (Heroes of Horror) and collects divine lore along with XP and class levels, even though, technically, s/he may still not be able to cast divine spells as a archivist either (then again, the class' description (Prayerbook) says otherswise - but these are the must-have-patron-Realms). Theme-wise, archivists work fine though.
Urlithani 10-15-07, 03:35 PM	Friends, family, and even foes here today. We are gathered here alike to pay our deepest respects to Haela Brightaxe, the magnificent greatsword brandishing fury, loyal daughter of Moradin. It is always sad when death takes the life of someone, but it means so much more when it is the death of a deity; someone who has touched all of our lives as well as our spirit. Haela was more than a god to be worshipped. She was a force to be respected, a warrior to be feared, a voice to sing in chorus with, and a friend to live in joy and pain with. But we all knew the woman she was through the type of goddess she was. That is why I say here today, let us not weep our eyes dry with sadness. To live in mourning is to betray her, to defy the spirit of Haela Brightaxe that will burn within us all eternally! Haela was a soldier, loyal to friends, family, and her fellow warriors. The tales of her deeds; joyously crying and revelling in the thrill of pitched battle, throwing herself into impossible odds with wreckless abandon and gleeful laughter. She died how she lived, and to see her Bloodmaidens, one and all, sullen and melancholy over their goddess, who sacrificed her own life like so many of her devout have sacrificed in her name before her. This, above all, shows that she is the deity we knew she was when we carved our first ritual scars into our own flesh, when we threw ourselves into the countless hordes of monsters that threatened our brothers and sisters! What better a deity to worship than one who will die how they live? Cowards, one and all I say, of those who would tarnish her memory with sadness, or take their own lives out of selfish misery! Though we may now direct our respects to the Twin Axes or to the Soul Forger himself, never in my memory will I not dream of Haela as she dreams of us in her Astral desmenes! Haela will live forever on in us! Whenever we cleave a foe with our greatswords, her voice will be heard! When we cast off the odds and plunge into hopeless battles, her laughter will echo! And when we stand over the dead, the fetid piles of vile and evil beasts that dare harm Dwarvenkind and those who stand with us, her message will again be delivered! Our goddess' death is no more a tragedy than it is a blessing! To all my fellow Bloodmaidens! Honor your goddess! Raise your tankards and your voices! There is no deity who ever was, nor will ever be, that deserves the honor, the song, and the revelry that we shall bring this night in the name of the Luckmaiden!
Zanan 10-15-07, 06:35 PM	Then a hushed voice from the shadows of the hall is barely audible saying: "Death is only the beginning. Only when her name is forgotten and no-one sings her songs, your goddess is truly gone. Keep believing ... and ask people who know about death and afterlife and ... gods."