Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sith_Phelan 10-25-04, 12:20 AM	Has anyone come up with a good understanding of the Rage that is about to sweep across the fair country. How to avoid it, saving throws safe areas, the effects of it all. I have read the novel but nothing official yet. thanks in advance :weep:
EmeraldFox 10-25-04, 01:02 AM	Well, I do hope the writers of Forgotten Realms avoid going Dragonlance and destroy everything they've established in scores of novels. However, should they not avoid this, and this Rage is the worst one yet, as said repitively throughour Mr. Byer's novel, then there would be no where to hide, no safe areas. Millions of people would die as well as many dragons. Faerun would be a smoldering ruin by the time the dragons are done.
Mordmorgan the Mad 10-25-04, 04:34 AM	I got the impression from the novel that dragons that could assume another form or hybernate could avoid the worst effects of the Rage and be able to resist its effects through force of will. If they can't (or choose not to) do those things, they're pretty much helpless against it, and start finding things to eat or destroy.
Sith_Phelan 10-25-04, 05:01 AM	I got from the novel that normally the ones that could change shape got some form of protection, or they could sleep.. but thuis time it would not be enough... as we know it is magical from the novel even those not under the influence can be mad to rage or not instantly by activation of the spell... I was looking to see if there had been any ideas for saves vs going mad, raging and kiling all in its path... :confused:
SammasterT 10-25-04, 11:24 AM	Well, I do hope the writers of Forgotten Realms avoid going Dragonlance and destroy everything they've established in scores of novels. However, should they not avoid this, and this Rage is the worst one yet, as said repitively throughour Mr. Byer's novel, then there would be no where to hide, no safe areas. Millions of people would die as well as many dragons. Faerun would be a smoldering ruin by the time the dragons are done. I suspect that there are a few short comings in the novel. Be it the worst rage yet or not, it seems that dragons lose control of their mental faculties when the "rage" sets in. While this my leave them with their innate magical powers, it divorces them from their spells. Moreover, it divorces them from their thought, reason, and creativity. As such, a raging dragon would be considerably less formidable than an fully conscious angry dragon. One wonders how past dragons under the influence of "the rage" would have proven formidable enough to have killed ... the Witch of Shadowdale for instance. That rage must have been CotD inspired and not a true "rage" is all I can think of. Anyway, if they elves could defeat the dragons before their first civilization had even been founded, as a result of instilling the rage in them, then us humans ... with numerous centuries of organization, magic, skill and knowledge, arrows or dragonslaying, swords of dragonslaying, et al. will take the spasmatic dragons, glorified dinosaurs actually, apart no problem. Now, if the rage wasn't a berserker type insanity ... And if the elves hadn't already set a precedent killing raging dragons ... and if those dragons hadn't been considerably bigger and more powerful than those around today, well, then maybe I'd be worried. But the thing is, the Rage is an anti-event ... for all that I like the authors writing style, and the gist of the story, enough to see it through at least the next book.
Mirtek 10-25-04, 02:02 PM	I suspect that there are a few short comings in the novel. Be it the worst rage yet or not, it seems that dragons lose control of their mental faculties when the "rage" sets in. While this my leave them with their innate magical powers, it divorces them from their spells. Moreover, it divorces them from their thought, reason, and creativity. As such, a raging dragon would be considerably less formidable than an fully conscious angry dragon. One wonders how past dragons under the influence of "the rage" would have proven formidable enough to have killed ... the Witch of Shadowdale for instance. That rage must have been CotD inspired and not a true "rage" is all I can think of. Anyway, if they elves could defeat the dragons before their first civilization had even been founded, as a result of instilling the rage in them, then us humans ... with numerous centuries of organization, magic, skill and knowledge, arrows or dragonslaying, swords of dragonslaying, et al. will take the spasmatic dragons, glorified dinosaurs actually, apart no problem. Now, if the rage wasn't a berserker type insanity ... And if the elves hadn't already set a precedent killing raging dragons ... and if those dragons hadn't been considerably bigger and more powerful than those around today, well, then maybe I'd be worried. But the thing is, the Rage is an anti-event ... for all that I like the authors writing style, and the gist of the story, enough to see it through at least the next book. The raging dragons in the novel could and did cast spells
EmeraldFox 10-25-04, 02:41 PM	I suspect that there are a few short comings in the novel. Be it the worst rage yet or not, it seems that dragons lose control of their mental faculties when the "rage" sets in. While this my leave them with their innate magical powers, it divorces them from their spells. Moreover, it divorces them from their thought, reason, and creativity. As such, a raging dragon would be considerably less formidable than an fully conscious angry dragon. One wonders how past dragons under the influence of "the rage" would have proven formidable enough to have killed ... the Witch of Shadowdale for instance. That rage must have been CotD inspired and not a true "rage" is all I can think of. Anyway, if they elves could defeat the dragons before their first civilization had even been founded, as a result of instilling the rage in them, then us humans ... with numerous centuries of organization, magic, skill and knowledge, arrows or dragonslaying, swords of dragonslaying, et al. will take the spasmatic dragons, glorified dinosaurs actually, apart no problem. Now, if the rage wasn't a berserker type insanity ... And if the elves hadn't already set a precedent killing raging dragons ... and if those dragons hadn't been considerably bigger and more powerful than those around today, well, then maybe I'd be worried. But the thing is, the Rage is an anti-event ... for all that I like the authors writing style, and the gist of the story, enough to see it through at least the next book. Yes, the dragons can still use magic when they are raging. Also, no. If anything the humans of the present day would be utterly slaughtered if pitted against the dragons as the elves did. Humans of today do not have Mystryl-era magic to fight them. The elves of that time had high magic that dwarf the epic spells of the present day.
BrianCritchley 10-25-04, 04:49 PM	as for the effects of the rage, well.. we know faerun AIN'T decimated by 1374 if forsaken house is anything to go by. my guess is that the "heros" in the novel manage to solve the rage before things get TOO bad
EmeraldFox 10-25-04, 08:42 PM	as for the effects of the rage, well.. we know faerun AIN'T decimated by 1374 if forsaken house is anything to go by. my guess is that the "heros" in the novel manage to solve the rage before things get TOO bad I hope not. The human nations need to be smacked around a bit before this all becomes settled. Forgotten Realms was becoming less and less demihuman until Forsaken House. I hope those elven heroes from both novels who shall remain nameless lest the stories be spoiled do something dramatic for their race.
BrianCritchley 10-26-04, 05:18 PM	I hope not. The human nations need to be smacked around a bit before this all becomes settled. Forgotten Realms was becoming less and less demihuman until Forsaken House. I hope those elven heroes from both novels who shall remain nameless lest the stories be spoiled do something dramatic for their race. less and elss demi-human? I dunno, the dwarves and elves are actually in the last few years on the upswing.
SammasterT 10-26-04, 05:58 PM	Yes, the dragons can still use magic when they are raging. Also, no. If anything the humans of the present day would be utterly slaughtered if pitted against the dragons as the elves did. Humans of today do not have Mystryl-era magic to fight them. The elves of that time had high magic that dwarf the epic spells of the present day. So they did. But dragons are themselves inherently magical creatures, who also would have benefitted from an age in which the weave stretched further and deeper. Moreover, the dragons of the Time of Dragons were said, by Steven Schend I believe, to have been bigger and more pwerful than those of today. Add to that the level of organization they have in 1373 DR as compared to the elves of preFirst Flowering -- which, comparatively, is to an elf of 1373 DR what Homer's Greece is to a modern real world Westerner -- and I don't see humans getting any worse of a trouncing than the ancient elves. In preFirst Flowering times, dragons were bigger, more powerful, every bits as in touch with the Weave if not moreso, and far more numerous. Moreover, in contrast to the first elfin dragonslayers, the weaknesses of dragon's are comparartively fairly well known today (as opposed to being a complete mystery), and magic items have been develpoed to exploited precisely these weaknesses with lethal precision. Humans. Hands down.
GothicDan 10-26-04, 05:59 PM	FR 3E/.5 is incredibly human-o-centric.
EmeraldFox 10-26-04, 10:34 PM	less and elss demi-human? I dunno, the dwarves and elves are actually in the last few years on the upswing. :nonono: I don't mean to sound rude (because I'm really not), but did I not say until Forsaken House? Lamruil's kingdom is probably still in the hundreds. For dwarves the Thunder Blessing seems to me to be somewhat ineffective. They're not really spreading out at all. So they did. But dragons are themselves inherently magical creatures, who also would have benefitted from an age in which the weave stretched further and deeper. Moreover, the dragons of the Time of Dragons were said, by Steven Schend I believe, to have been bigger and more pwerful than those of today. Add to that the level of organization they have in 1373 DR as compared to the elves of preFirst Flowering -- which, comparatively, is to an elf of 1373 DR what Homer's Greece is to a modern real world Westerner -- and I don't see humans getting any worse of a trouncing than the ancient elves. In preFirst Flowering times, dragons were bigger, more powerful, every bits as in touch with the Weave if not moreso, and far more numerous. Moreover, in contrast to the first elfin dragonslayers, the weaknesses of dragon's are comparartively fairly well known today (as opposed to being a complete mystery), and magic items have been develpoed to exploited precisely these weaknesses with lethal precision. Humans. Hands down. I'll give you that. However, that organization only goes so far. The human nations are not going to unite to fight the dragons as the different subspecies of elves did. Humans are not mentally in touch with each other as elves are. This means that if the dragons start raging in a way that they have never done before, you can expect several human nations experience much despoilment and depopulation before the rest of the nations understand what is happening to them. Then after that, we can move on to government intrigue where it would take a long time for individual nations to decide how to deal the threat and groups of nations to assemble some semblance of an alliance. I might be overly pessimistic, but by this time, the dragons would have taken too many of the nations' military for the tide to be completely turned.
SammasterT 10-27-04, 02:27 AM	The human nations are not going to unite to fight the dragons as the different subspecies of elves did. Humans are not mentally in touch with each other as elves are. So, the Crown Wars ... all what? FIVE of them? ... are an example of this vaunted elfin "in-touchness"? Quite the contrary, with such an example I'd have to say that us humans are every bit as "in touch" with each other as the elves are with themselves. We're "in touch" with lotsa different species in the same way. Gonna be gettin "in touch" with some dragons before long too ... yeah ... when we're laying the smacketh down on their candy *****!!! :cool: If you smellellellellellellELL!! ??? :cool:
BrianCritchley 10-27-04, 02:15 PM	if elves are so much in touch with each other in addition explain the recent attack on evermett. heck explain the large numbers of half elves. *personally has a theory that the gods secrectly see the half-elves as the race of the future*
EmeraldFox 10-27-04, 05:23 PM	So, the Crown Wars ... all what? FIVE of them? ... are an example of this vaunted elfin "in-touchness"? Quite the contrary, with such an example I'd have to say that us humans are every bit as "in touch" with each other as the elves are with themselves. We're "in touch" with lotsa different species in the same way. Gonna be gettin "in touch" with some dragons before long too ... yeah ... when we're laying the smacketh down on their candy *****!!! :cool: If you smellellellellellellELL!! ??? :cool: ....how old are you? Anyway, what I meant by "in touch" was their connection when they go into reverie. As for the Crown Wars, I don't think there were any Vyshaanti when the elves were fighting the dragons. The recent attack on Evermeet had divine intervention. I'm pretty sure these divine entities would have the power to keep their invasion secret from mortals. What do the number of half-elves have to do with anything? Elves don't put down rules against free will. Kuje! GothicDan! Back me up!
Kuje31 10-27-04, 05:33 PM	....how old are you? Anyway, what I meant by "in touch" was their connection when they go into reverie. As for the Crown Wars, I don't think there were any Vyshaanti when the elves were fighting the dragons. The recent attack on Evermeet had divine intervention. I'm pretty sure these divine entities would have the power to keep their invasion secret from mortals. What do the number of half-elves have to do with anything? Elves don't put down rules against free will. Kuje! GothicDan! Back me up! Not sure what the arguement here is. Everything you said makes sense to me. :)
SammasterT 10-27-04, 05:58 PM	....how old are you? Ummm ... old enough to know what to take seriously and what not to take seriously? What about yourself?
BrianCritchley 10-27-04, 08:20 PM	As for the Crown Wars, I don't think there were any Vyshaanti when the elves were fighting the dragons. sure they where. now maybe they wheren't courrpt yet but their ancestors would still be around. The recent attack on Evermeet had divine intervention yes but it's not like Lolth used divine powers to do anything here, she just offered to help a elf w ho already had the goals. also Kimmel was an extremist but this does not mean the basic divide is not still there. it's just more.. moderate. What do the number of half-elves have to do with anything? my point is if the elves all had quite as strong an intrinsic connection to each other as some think, half elves wouldn't happen./
EmeraldFox 10-27-04, 11:42 PM	Ummm ... old enough to know what to take seriously and what not to take seriously? What about yourself? Please, let's not take anything personally. I really don't want to start a flaming war. sure they where. now maybe they wheren't courrpt yet but their ancestors would still be around. Hmm...very well, I concede. About Kimmel though, elves communicate while in reverie, and I'm quite sure he didn't let every elf know of his plans. Lolth COULD have done something not to our knowledge, she is a deity after all. However, I still don't understand your argument with half-elves...if you wish to elaborate, that is.
BrianCritchley 10-28-04, 03:43 AM	About Kimmel though, elves communicate while in reverie honestly, I find the "all elves are INTIMATLY conencted"m idea a tad hard to beliv e in, yes there may be some level of communication but nothing concrete other then a feeling of oneness
Sith_Phelan 10-28-04, 08:58 AM	honestly, I find the "all elves are INTIMATLY conencted"m idea a tad hard to beliv e in, yes there may be some level of communication but nothing concrete other then a feeling of oneness Are then the Elves the Borg of the Realm..heheh :D
EmeraldFox 10-28-04, 02:40 PM	Are then the Elves the Borg of the Realm..heheh :D HA! I wish! Then the elves wouldn't have to lick the boots of the lesser races as they do now!
Chosen of the Dark Sun 10-28-04, 09:48 PM	build a bomb shelter
BrianCritchley 10-28-04, 11:54 PM	HA! I wish! Then the elves wouldn't have to lick the boots of the lesser races as they do now! I dunno, the borg ARE pretty stupid. www.stardetroyer.net has an article explaining just how
WizO_BigSister 10-29-04, 11:45 AM	right folks .... this thread has started to include a fair amount of comments about people rather than their ideas, and it has drifted WAYYYY off topic. Be warned ... back on topic and less of the personal remarks or the thread gets shut :teach:
greaterbaatezu 10-30-04, 03:20 AM	Umm... I was a pc when a flight of dragons levelled Phlan for the umpteenth time. My Cleric was 27th level with pretty awsome stats. The DM gave me a choice (he wanted to retire the camp anyway), we could dice out the encounter and my character could die slowly and gruesomely (he would fight to the death defending his people too, he was Lawful Good), or we could just say he fought valiantly trying, and died a hero, along with most of the other people, though some lived because of his heroic efforts, and his soul went to reside with his god (Torm if I remember correctly). I don't care WHAT level you are, or how powerful. If a rage of dragons happens and you don't run for cover... you die. It's that simple. A flight of dragons will cause a garaunteed 90% fatal casualties, and another 9% wounded. The other 1% ran away successfully.
greaterbaatezu 10-30-04, 03:25 AM	HA! I wish! Then the elves wouldn't have to lick the boots of the lesser races as they do now! Isn't this kind of Elvish arrogance exactly what propels the "lesser" races to desire to crush them? By definition, the elvish word for a non elves is N'Tel Quessir (literal translation NOT PEOPLE). Humans by defenition (decent ones anyway) abhor bigotry on every level, and this one word screams bigotry (from a supposed "good" race).
WizO_BigSister 10-30-04, 06:48 AM	Last warning ... back on topic folks. For those who didn't spot it the topic is the Rage of Dragons not We All Hate/Adore Elves.
EmeraldFox 10-30-04, 10:34 AM	Does anyone have any idea how many dragons there are left to even Rage?
Kuje31 10-30-04, 01:46 PM	Does anyone have any idea how many dragons there are left to even Rage? Really to hard to tell since only book 1 of 3 is out....... Well and the book of short stories where a few dragons died....
SammasterT 10-30-04, 02:08 PM	I don't care WHAT level you are, or how powerful. If a rage of dragons happens and you don't run for cover... you die. It's that simple. A flight of dragons will cause a garaunteed 90% fatal casualties, and another 9% wounded. The other 1% ran away successfully. That might be so. However, it undermines a basic premise of the Rage ... SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER And that premise is that the Rage was created by the early elves in order to help them overthrow the rule of dragonkind and bring an end to the Time of Dragons. Personally, I don't agree with this idea. Like you, I tendto think that this would have been certain suicide ... leading to the active destruction of elves, rather than their mere subjagation by dragonkind. But if it's a fact, if it's canon -- and novels are canon for whatever thats worth -- then in my opinion, humans will fair at least as good as the preFirst Flowering elves faired. At least as good or better, all things considered. Meta-thinking alone can tell us this; knowing as we do that the realms will continue on more-or-less exactly as they are now when the trilogy is written, released and finished. We will learn about the elfin spell that caused the rage, find a ritual that dispels it, beat and break Sammaster's remaining minions, force Sammasater into retreat (for later reemergence), and we will all live happiily ever after.
BrianCritchley 10-30-04, 04:11 PM	yeah well even the lead chars in the rage expressed total "WTF WHERE THEY THINKING" however the thing is the elves where looking to break up dragon civilization, and it did work.
Sith_Phelan 10-30-04, 05:42 PM	I do not know how many dragons are left... 1 raging would be too many, a handfull could blast many cities back to the stone age...
Derren S. 10-30-04, 07:05 PM	Oh, sorry. Its 1 am here so Im' not the most fittest person at the moment. But it was something similar. Byers? Whatever. The point is still that because there isn't much destruction in the novles (so far, but I don't think the style will change) there will not be much effect on the game world. Also, there were so many catasrophes in the FR recently, I doubt it there will be another one. (At least none which will overshadow the return of the shades.).
BrianCritchley 10-30-04, 09:23 PM	Oh, sorry. Its 1 am here so Im' not the most fittest person at the moment. But it was something similar. Byers? Whatever. The point is still that because there isn't much destruction in the novles (so far, but I don't think the style will change) there will not be much effect on the game world. Also, there were so many catasrophes in the FR recently, I doubt it there will be another one. (At least none which will overshadow the return of the shades.). I agree, as it is I kinda hope the realms doesn't become like dragon lance where things screw up majorly on a regular basis. a common joke about DL me and my friends make is "ohh gee, are the gods around this week?"
GothicDan 10-30-04, 10:47 PM	Don't insult Dragonlance. ;)
BrianCritchley 10-30-04, 10:55 PM	Don't insult Dragonlance. ;) hey dragonlance is a great book series, but for the same reasons isn't quite as appealing to me as a roleplaying setting. it's hard to have a good RPing setting thats novel driven because with every novel often the setting undergoes MAJOR changes
Derren S. 10-31-04, 02:27 AM	Well, with the aftermath of the WoS, DL turned into a good RP world (imo). But that is totally of topic and probably against some forum rules. Back to the rage. An interesting question was raised. How many dragons are there to rage? I know of no product which specifies or even hints at how many dragons exist in the FR. The Dragon anthology which will appear soon probably also won't help much (I expect it to become a book about dragon slayer and not about dragons) The only thing which can give us a clue is the Draconomicon which outlines how fast dragons reproduce. According to it, dragons breed faster than elves unless elves do nothing other than reproduce. (Making the explanation how elves drove off the dragons in Cormanthor(?) wrong). But considering that dragons live a more dangerous live than (Evermeet) elves, the dragon population should be arround equal to the elf population (after Everska) outside Evermeet + 1/3 of the Evermeet population. (Pure speculation) A other method is to calculate how much territory a dragon needs on average and then calculate how much dragon have enough space in the realms and adding a unknown number to that (For special cases where dragons don't take territory or share their territory) In either cases, if all those dragon would rage, Faerun would go boom. (Except when the novels take precedence over game material. In this case it would only be midly annoying as dragons are weak as hell and easily killed.) But so far this isn't happening.
BrianCritchley 10-31-04, 03:18 AM	there arefor all intents and purposes an infinate number of dragon in faerun.
EmeraldFox 10-31-04, 11:14 AM	Sure for gaming purposes it is, eveyone knows that , but don't be a party pooper and spoil our fun. We were thinking on realistic terms. Hundreds of thousands of dragons? I highly doubt that. Even a few thousand is more than enough for a coalition of several nations to handle. Besides, dragons are actively being hunted down all over Faerun, that should mitigate population growth somewhat. Dragons enjoy huge living spaces. Would there be enough room for hundreds of thousands of dragons, while not having to come in conflict with each other or other races?
Kuje31 10-31-04, 12:00 PM	The Dragon anthology which will appear soon probably also won't help much (I expect it to become a book about dragon slayer and not about dragons) The anthology has been out for over a month and as I said it didn't help much. Yes a few dragons died in that book of short stories but no more then maybe 2......
Derren S. 10-31-04, 12:03 PM	Sure for gaming purposes it is, eveyone knows that , but don't be a party pooper and spoil our fun. We were thinking on realistic terms. Hundreds of thousands of dragons? I highly doubt that. Even a few thousand is more than enough for a coalition of several nations to handle. Besides, dragons are actively being hunted down all over Faerun, that should mitigate population growth somewhat. Dragons enjoy huge living spaces. Would there be enough room for hundreds of thousands of dragons, while not having to come in conflict with each other or other races? I disagree that dragons are hunted everywhere. At least the metallics would fare well in most regions ans even cromatics can have allies.
BrianCritchley 10-31-04, 01:32 PM	also dragons may be hunted by how many dragon hunters live to tell the tale? by time a dragon gains notiraty locally they useally are likely an adault, and even a adault wh ite dragon can eat a party of midlevel adventurers for lunch. considering the level you have to be to sucessfully hunt dragons I imagine sucessful dragon hunters aren't that common
Sith_Phelan 10-31-04, 03:22 PM	Just had a thought... the year is called the Year of the Rogue Dagon not the year of the Raging dragons thus maybe named after those that do not rage, or are different like the one in the book? might not be as bad as we think.
Derren S. 10-31-04, 03:35 PM	Maybe with rogue dragon those dragon which don't went to slumber like Nexus and the gold dragons decided where meant? That means that this rogue dragons would play a important part in the history as it seems to be as that copper and the song dragon (don't know the names in the moment) will probably find the reason for the rage and stop Sammaster.
SammasterT 10-31-04, 04:27 PM	I'm curious. There are those of us here who disagree with the authors ideas regarding the Rage, but do any of us have an alternate theory? I personally ascribe to the theory that "rage" has little to do with the dragons state of mind nad has more to do with the number of dragons of the warpath at a given time. If it is only a few dragons, spread out over a wide area, we humans call it a "flight". It the dragons are more numerous and tightly bunched together, they are a "rage". In the course of human history there have been two distinct types of "flights/rages". There are the unnatural variety that are inspired by such organizations as the Cult of the Dragon through the use of rings and potions of dragon control. And there are the natural, more mysterious variety, which we know so little about. I believe that even as dragons have such an intimate connection with the Weave, they also have an uncanny instinct for ebbs, flows, and concentrations of magical energy. When magical energy builds up too much in in favour of one race or another, most likely to the disadvantage of dragonkind, this instinct begins to kick in and flights or rages of dragons erupt in an attempt to return things to a state of balance. Whatever the case, even moreso than the rage, one must, in my opinion, be aware of the Prophecy of Maglas, which states that in time the dragons will once again come to dominate Aber-Toril even as they did in days now lost. Afterall, if the names of the years can be so accurate in their forecasts, how about an honest to goodness prophecy?
WizO_BigSister 11-01-04, 07:46 PM	It seems that once agaion I have to remind you of the rules on novels - Novels - Important Info - Read This! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=185204) Please ... no more comments about the books as works of literature:- how good/bad the authors are, the motivation for writing the novels, criticism of how the plots tie in with the source books and rules etc etc In fact ... read the whole of the rules and don't break them ;)