Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 04:10 AM	"And the Ending shall come, Brought about by the Seven Raise the standard of War Only the People to stand against Them With Man to deliver the Verdict In Light or Dark the world reborn" -Just wondering what others think of this Elven prophecy, 4e, and any other ideas that are out there. The reason why I even bring it up is because of the final stanza, especially the part about the world reborn.
Khaelieth 01-19-08, 06:33 AM	The Seven mess up, the People is obviously the Elves, and Faerūn's reborn in Selūne or Shar's image?
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 07:29 AM	-Here is the 'translation' of this prophecy, as best as I remember it, as I don't have my book with me at the moment: And the Ending shall come: Self-explanitory. At some point, the flashpoint between good and evil will rear it's ugly head. The Apocalypse, if you will. Brought about by the Seven: Seven great evils, one from at least every continent (1 from Maztica, 1 from Kara-Tur, 1 from Zakhara, multiple from Faerūn) apparently cause this. Raise the standard of War: It seems this conflict will be a large war, possibly on the world scale. Only the People to stand against Them: For whatever the reason, the Elves are the only group of people to fight against the Seven, or the only group that has the capability of fighting against them. With Man to deliver the Verdict: Humans will play a vital role, when they join into the conflict. In Light or Dark the world reborn: Depending on the side the Humans choose (The Seven or the People), they will 'make or break' the world. Seemingly, if they side with the Seven, the world will be reborn in darkness, and if they choose the People, the world will be reborn in light.
Kenzuki 01-19-08, 10:30 AM	Where is this from?
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 11:17 AM	This (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/retreat.htm) article, which references Elves of Evermeet, and The Complete Book of Elves.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:49 PM	I thought I remember seeing that before - I even referenced the book of Elven prophesy from that article in one of mine for the Elven Netbook. Thats not canon, though, is it? Still - it's pretty good - better then a lot of official stuff lately. I'll have commentary later - have to go do some work now.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:55 PM	Thats not canon, though, is it? -I am fairly sure it is, as it references Elves of Evermeet, and The Complete Book of Elves, and the entire second half of the article, the first half must be the referenced material. But, even if it isn't, I like the idea, and as you mentioned, we've used it before.
Suin Bahhar 01-19-08, 02:20 PM	Has the retreat been officially declared to have ended. Who would have done that; was it Amluriel? The seven council members of Elil-Ascalorn residing in Fearie or the Feywild could be played up in the future realms. I like the seven evil harbingers too. Who could they be?
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:37 PM	Has the retreat been officially declared to have ended. Who would have done that; was it Amluriel? -Yes, it is over. No one officially announced an 'end'. It just stopped. As I happened to have written the article for the Elven Retreat for EoF today, I cited these reasons: However, in recent years, things have changed. By 1372 DR, the Elven retreat had ended. There is no clear-cut reason for this. The recent events in Evermeet, concerning the treacherous Kymil Nimesin may have prompted the Elven race to reexamine our policies concerning Faerūn. The return of the City of Shade, and the siege of Evereska may be another factor. Increased activity on part of grave robbers, tomb defilers and explorers entering the ruins of Elven cities, tombs and sites of interest may be yet another factor.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 03:30 PM	I think it was Bob from accounting... he was working in one of those Towers of High Sorcery thingies, and was crunching the numbers. It seems that many Elves were standing around, waiting for 'their ship to come in', and asked "Why are we doing this again?" :confused: After that, everbody just started heading home..... ;)
Khaelieth 01-19-08, 07:50 PM	The Seven could be the Seven Sisters; possibly they unleash some horror by accident. Who knows. As for the Retreat... Oy, the humans are chopping trees on our turf! That's IT! We're going back!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 09:36 PM	-Just wondering what others think of this Elven prophecy, 4e, and any other ideas that are out there. The reason why I even bring it up is because of the final stanza, especially the part about the world reborn. Where is this elven prophecy from? EDIT: Nevermind, you answered that already. :)
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 03:20 AM	The Seven could be the Seven Sisters; possibly they unleash some horror by accident. Who knows. -I was thinking that too, at first, but there aren't Seven Sisters anymore, so I don't think they can qualify. The Seven are also supposed to come from all across Abeir-Toril, and not just Faerūn.
Mr_Miscellany 01-20-08, 04:09 AM	Maybe the seven are another means by which Abeir and Toril can be linked together? Markus?
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 04:23 AM	Maybe the seven are another means by which Abeir and Toril can be linked together? :confused: -'Abeir' and 'Toril' are not seperate entities. Abeir-Toril is Abeir-Toril. Just because we simplify it to 'Toril' doesn't mean that the 'Abeir' part went anywhere. 'New Jersey' is often called 'Jersey', but that doesn't make 'New' and 'Jersey' two seperate places. -Of course, 4e seems that it is going to change this. But, it hasn't, yet. -Unless you were being facecious there, which I think you just might have been. One never knows, though...
Khaelieth 01-20-08, 07:19 AM	7 dwarves of the 7 deadly sins!
Mr_Miscellany 01-20-08, 03:50 PM	-'Abeir' and 'Toril' are not seperate entities. Abeir-Toril is Abeir-Toril. Just because we simplify it to 'Toril' doesn't mean that the 'Abeir' part went anywhere. 'New Jersey' is often called 'Jersey', but that doesn't make 'New' and 'Jersey' two seperate places. Funny, I don't recall you making this point to Markus when he speculated on 4E putting the "Abeir" back in Abeir-Toril. Anyway, if the seven are from all the various continents, it follows they might 'unify' things a bit more. :P
18DELTA 01-21-08, 12:17 AM	-Also didn't the final print of Dragon Magazine say that the Abeir-Toril mystery would be answered in the near future? Wasn't it written by "Ed" himself? LORD DELTA:confused:
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 02:50 AM	Funny, I don't recall you making this point to Markus when he speculated on 4E putting the "Abeir" back in Abeir-Toril. -I do it all the time. Every so often, he even tells me preemptivley to not bring it up, because he knows. -Also didn't the final print of Dragon Magazine say that the Abeir-Toril mystery would be answered in the near future? Wasn't it written by "Ed" himself? -What mystery? There is no mystery? Regardless of what Ed says, the planet is, was, and will always be Abeir-Toril. See point made to Mr. Misc above. -But, this is not about Abeir-Toril, but the Finale. Opinions, people.
sfdragon 01-21-08, 04:32 AM	it could be the 7 citadels.....
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 04:27 PM	Definately the seven lost gods - Tyranthraxus(1) - LE, DP of magical fire, domination Maram - unknown Haask - unknown Borem(2) - DP of anger Camnod - unknown The Dark God(3) - NE, LP of eternal darkness, cold, decay, enfeeblement, paralysis (Astral Plane/dying) Ghaunadaur(3) - CE, LP of ooze, rebels (Plane of Ooze/Cauldron of Slime) Especially since we've seem to have gotten a bit more lore about them (Borem) in the GHotR - but not much. Also, in the Roll of Years, we see 1425 DR is the Year of the seven Sisters, which could be the year all of this goes down (and maybe even be the year WotC get rid of the Chosen). Or perhaps they are connected, and the Elder Lost Gods are FEMALE and share a common birth (another primordial god splitting apart?), in which case the Seven Sisters mentioned in that year could still be the seven Lost Gods (although that IS a bit of a stretch). Maybe the Seven Chosen were created specifically to combat these evils when they arise in 1425, but because one of them is missing, they can only be partially stopped... So one Elder God is successful, and he, probably Tyranthraxus, opens up a masive portal to another world and brings the Dragonborn into the Realms!!! :eek:
Suin Bahhar 01-21-08, 04:44 PM	Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! Don't panic! *Markus you only need to find out how the elves are to save us from this to stop the panic* :)
Fingoldfin 01-21-08, 04:56 PM	-Just wondering what others think of this Elven prophecy, 4e, and any other ideas that are out there. The reason why I even bring it up is because of the final stanza, especially the part about the world reborn. :whatsthis :thinks: This is a very old quote and I haven't thought about it in years. What prompted you to bring it up now? It's very interesting if you look at it in the context of what Rich said about a return of old gods and all the stuff about primordials in 4e. I think MarkusTay may be sniffing around in the right area.
18DELTA 01-21-08, 05:03 PM	*Markus you only need to find out how the elves are to save us from this to stop the panic* :) -The Elves probably started it(Whatever it is.);) :P :D LORD DELTA:P
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 06:09 PM	I think MarkusTay may be sniffing around in the right area.I've been known to do that... usually just before I get smacked. :embarrass On a more serious note: I'm checking throught the Phoenix Prophesies and the Caleph Augeries of the Abbalayar to see if I can find any correlations. EDIT: Found an interesting one that appears to relate to Shade -- yet it was written back in '98! Anyway, this might be of some use - Seven Stars rise blue and silver, three tears fall gold and royal, darkness among seven silver stars once more, and three above shall cry This seems pertinent to 4e/ The Spellplague, but not so much to Elves - The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home to their father's houses to claim seats at table once more. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand. Note: 'Dawn' usually refers to the beginnings of a kingdom in the prophesies.
Mr_Miscellany 01-22-08, 02:54 AM	The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home to their father's houses to claim seats at table once more. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand. That looks to me more like a hint at the rise of Aumanator's faith in the shadow cast by Shar/The Shadovar. The concept of 'the outcasts' works great for my campaign, as many followers of Aumanator of old reside in Zhakara, where the PC Paladin in my game hales from. Well done, Marks. Well done.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:34 AM	This is a very old quote and I haven't thought about it in years. What prompted you to bring it up now? -The wacky stuff going on in the transition to 4e. Anyway, this might be of some use - Seven Stars rise blue and silver, three tears fall gold and royal, darkness among seven silver stars once more, and three above shall cry -Hmm...Seven Sisters, Seven Stars... -The tears fall...The deaths of Qilue, Alustriel and the Simbul perhaps? They are, after all, 'royal'. -Darkness among seven silver stars once more...Perhaps Laeral, due to the Spellplague, assumes the 'Witch Queen' persona that she became when possessed? -Three above shall cry...Only three of the Seven Sisters will remain in 4e?
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 07:55 AM	Was just down at the bookies, odds aren't that good for any of the Sisters.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:18 AM	:: Chuckles ::
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 01:38 PM	--Darkness among seven silver stars once more...Perhaps Alustriel, due to the Spellplague, assumes the 'Witch Queen' persona that she became when possessed? You mean possessed by the Crown of Thorns? That's Laeral.:)
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 01:52 PM	You mean possessed by the Crown of Thorns? That's Laeral.:) -Whoops. What was I thinking? :doh: -That actually makes my ruminations better, because it mentions 'three tears fall gold and royal', and I'd consider Alustriel one of the 'royal' Sisters, along with Qilue and the Simbul.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 02:05 PM	-Whoops. What was I thinking? :doh: -That actually makes my ruminations better, because it mentions 'three tears fall gold and royal', and I'd consider Alustriel one of the 'royal' Sisters, along with Qilue and the Simbul. -You, sir, just got a pay decrease of .003487230942340%.;) :P :D LORD DIRTY DELTA :rofl:!!!
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 02:08 PM	-You, sir, just got a pay decrease of .003487230942340%.;) :P :D -Oh, you think that's funny, don't you? :ahem: (:P)
18DELTA 01-22-08, 02:46 PM	-Oh, you think that's funny, don't you? :ahem: (:P) ROFL!!! DELTA:P
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 04:05 PM	Delta, is it at ALL POSSIBLE to keep any of the threads serious? Please? :( El's comments on that particular 'Quatrain' are as follows - "E'en a simpleton such as Manshoon might suggest the images tie to Mystra, Selūne, and Talona by their colors and symbols. For that very reason, I caution ye away from such conclusions - any answer simply found in an oracle's tale is oft the wrong one" So, I didn't want any one to go the obvious route, since Elminster suggests otherwise. Also, just because I find it interesting, another Qutrain from the prophesies - "The Penumbrannar in shadows work. The Penumbrannar in times grow and thrive. When three rings their homes find, they shall stalk the lands anew. Until the child of centuries faces fear itself and accepts it, the Penumbrannar shall bring ruin to Elf and man." Obviously about the return of Shade - published in a sourcebook in 1998! Ethier the designers/authors went fishing for novel plots, or thats one hell of a coincidence! The Archwizards didn't appear in canon until 2001, I believe. ;)
18DELTA 01-22-08, 04:13 PM	Delta, is it at ALL POSSIBLE to keep any of the threads serious? Please? :( -Nope not really. Hey we all need a good laugh sometime(That means all the time:D ) right?:P DELTA:D
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:44 PM	The Archwizards didn't appear in canon until 2001, I believe. ;) -2000, I believe.
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 04:47 PM	I think I'm one of the few here who likes Shade and the Shadow Weave...
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:59 PM	I think I'm one of the few here who likes Shade and the Shadow Weave... -I used to like both, but they became a little overexposed, especially the Shades. The Shadow Weave? Eh, I still got a little bit of left over love for it.
Mr_Miscellany 01-22-08, 10:36 PM	I think I'm one of the few here who likes Shade and the Shadow Weave... Count me as a fan. Both are great parts of the Realms and make for good adventures.
Khaelieth 01-23-08, 11:00 AM	-I used to like both, but they became a little overexposed, especially the Shades. The Shadow Weave? Eh, I still got a little bit of left over love for it. Yeah, agreed. But tbh, they needed to come back. And they obliterated Tilverton.
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 12:25 PM	Yeah, agreed. But tbh, they needed to come back. And they obliterated Tilverton. -Eh, I like the notion of having open-ended mysteries. We didn't know what ever happened to Shade. We didn't know who killed Aravae Irithyl. And so on...
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 12:54 PM	I would rather the city had stayed in another dimension, ala Sildėyuir, and just sent 'advanced scouts' through into the Realms. then we could have had whatever Shade-intigue we wanted, without dropping yet another long-lost city into the Realms. Its almost like the Universe has to take a 'dump' ever once in awhile, and Toril is it's toilet. :bored:
Khaelieth 01-23-08, 07:52 PM	I would rather the city had stayed in another dimension, ala Sildėyuir, and just sent 'advanced scouts' through into the Realms. then we could have had whatever Shade-intigue we wanted, without dropping yet another long-lost city into the Realms. Its almost like the Universe has to take a 'dump' ever once in awhile, and Toril is it's toilet. :bored: Sildėyuir I'm not too sure on. Dunno if I like it. What's everyone's opinions?
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:12 AM	Sildėyuir I'm not too sure on. Dunno if I like it. What's everyone's opinions? -At first, I hated it, along with the Star Elves. As I did research for them, and their realm for Elves of Faerūn, I warmed up to them. A lot of the crap in the novel Stardeep, has turned me off from the Sildėyuir, again, however.
MarkusTay63 01-24-08, 03:33 AM	What? You don't like... :coolcthul ? ;) :P
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 09:13 AM	What? You don't like... :coolcthul ? -When I first read about the Far Realms, in Manual of the Planes, I was like, "I don't get it". But, then again, as it's supposed to be beyond Human comprehension. Okay. -Now, the Far Realms are far more insidious and central than we thought. Fine. Aboleth are going to rule the world. Eh, well, okay. Stardeep in the Sildėyuir? Eh...The story illuminated in Stardeep, with Abberations rulign Abeir-Toril before the dawn of time, and the citadel of Stardeep existing in the Sildėyuir before the Sildėyuir was created? Um, no. Not anymore.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 12:24 PM	-Now, the Far Realms are far more insidious and central than we thought. Fine. Aboleth are going to rule the world. Eh, well, okay. Stardeep in the Sildėyuir? Eh...The story illuminated in Stardeep, with Abberations rulign Abeir-Toril before the dawn of time, and the citadel of Stardeep existing in the Sildėyuir before the Sildėyuir was created? Um, no. Not anymore. Indeed, that particular plot was way too "out there" for me (and IMO, for the Realms), even though I did enjoy the basic story and character interaction.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:37 PM	Indeed, that particular plot was way too "out there" for me (and IMO, for the Realms), even though I did enjoy the basic story and character interaction. -Too many plot holes, and it felt too "forced", especially as there is no canon (or, hints of canon) anywhere else to echo the backstory of Stardeep.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 12:39 PM	-Too many plot holes, and it felt too "forced", especially as there is no canon (or, hints of canon) anywhere else to echo the backstory of Stardeep. Yes, it does feel forced and smelled of "Look what we are preparing for the NEW Realms!"
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:45 PM	Yes, it does feel forced and smelled of "Look what we are preparing for the NEW Realms!" -Exxxactly. -It's a shame, too, because, as I was saying, I was starting to dig the Sildėyuir. A missed opportunity to further smooth its (and the Star Elves') botched integration into the Realms.
ziplock001 01-25-08, 10:08 PM	-Too many plot holes, and it felt too "forced", especially as there is no canon (or, hints of canon) anywhere else to echo the backstory of Stardeep. True enough. The only echos other than the hidden realm of Sildėyuir was Kiril and her sword, Angul. I can dig the fact that Stardeep was created similiar to Sildėyuir, but separate for security reasons. The tunnels beneath seemed a stretch until one considers that the High Magic used to create both realm & prison not only copied the surface features, but also what lay hidden beneath. Given the physical proximity of both to each other gives some creditability to the idea.
Meldread 01-26-08, 12:40 AM	The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home to their father's houses to claim seats at table once more. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand. "The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home" The sun rising sounds an awful lot like Amaunator Reborn via Lathander and his machinations with the Risen Sun Heresy. ...but who are the outcasts? The heretical followers? "to their father's houses to claim seats at table once more." I am guessing that the answer might be yes. Lathander will rise to take on Amaunator’s mantel, and his outcasts will rejoin the church. The Church of Lathander will be reunified. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, The dawn is definitely a reference to Lathander, but also a new beginning - a new age. The rest might be literal, however we all know what happened during the last Dawn Cataclysm. So it might be good for some deities while it destroys others. "and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand." A reference to the sun again - Lathander taking on the mantel of Amaunator. The land swathed in darkness by another's hand is a direct reference to Shar and what she has done, I think.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:40 AM	"The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home" The sun rising sounds an awful lot like Amaunator Reborn via Lathander and his machinations with the Risen Sun Heresy. ...but who are the outcasts? The heretical followers? -If Lathander is indeed being reborn, then the heretics were right, and the mainstream church was wrong. That'd probably mean that the mainstream church are the techincal outcasts, because they refused to believe the truth.
Meldread 01-26-08, 10:52 AM	Either way, if we are going off the assumption that I was correct it means that Lathander's Church would once again be whole. Which brings up some interesting questions in what role they will play - I would love to see an Empire / Kingdom pledged to the newly reborn Lathander.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 10:59 AM	Hmmmm... I took it more literally, think that the Aumanator-worshipping Bedine would be lead home (to Zakhara). - that part about "their father's houses" just struck a cord. But then, we know from the Year of the Ageless One that at least some Bedine would wind up enslaved by the Shades. :(
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:23 PM	Either way, if we are going off the assumption that I was correct it means that Lathander's Church would once again be whole. Which brings up some interesting questions in what role they will play - I would love to see an Empire / Kingdom pledged to the newly reborn Lathander. -Before most of the 4e information that we have today was released, I was theorizing that Abelar Cornaith (I don't think that was his last name...), the Paladin from The Twilight War trilogy was going to found a theocracy dedicated to Lathander/Amaunator in the ruins of Sembia. My reasoning was that the light of the rising sun (dawn) chases away the darkness. It would have also fit the novels thematically, as Abelar renounced his religion during these very trying times for him. So, things would have been reborn metaphorically and literally, if my theory were true. -There still is a possibility that things work out like this. It doesn't seem like Abelar will be the driving force behind any change in Sembia in the "new" Realms, however.
Meldread 01-27-08, 02:54 AM	LK- I actually read a post you wrote on that and liked it a lot. It gave me ideas, and I am actually thinking about stealing it for my Realm's. The whole Netheril Reborn and the Shades is just... blah. I've never understood the point of bringing back long dead empires... it only undermines their place in history and kills everything about them that made them special. However, your theory / idea there gets two thumbs up from me. There are not many good leaning theocracies in the Realms, and I do not count Mulhorand. :P
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:09 AM	LK- I actually read a post you wrote on that and liked it a lot. It gave me ideas, and I am actually thinking about stealing it for my Realm's. The whole Netheril Reborn and the Shades is just... blah. I've never understood the point of bringing back long dead empires... it only undermines their place in history and kills everything about them that made them special. However, your theory / idea there gets two thumbs up from me. There are not many good leaning theocracies in the Realms, and I do not count Mulhorand. :P -Cool, go ahead. In a 'Points of Light' world such as what we have here, Sembia being a Theocratic state dedicated to Lathander/Amaunator would make it a beacon.
Meldread 01-27-08, 11:05 PM	Yeah, the only problem I had with that is how to deal with Cormyr. Really, though it's hard to plot out anything until we see the new FRCS and get a look at the new map. I was thinking of setting it up down in Tethyr, though. It just felt like it fit best down there.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:47 PM	-The reasons why (I think) it works best with Sembia is: a) There is no real government. They are simply puppets for the Shadovar. b) The people of Sembia are used to living "the high life", not oppression. c) Lathaner/Amaunator is already known there, and has a stake in the proverbial fight. d) The Shadowstorm is literally/metaphorically covering Sembia in darkness. Light causes darkness to disappear.
Meldread 01-28-08, 01:07 AM	Yes, I completely agree with all of your assessments. My only problem is location - namely its neighbor - Cormyr. Of course, my vision of what the theocratic society is like isn't what your typical Lathanderite might envision. It would be Lawful Good with some Lawful Neutral leanings, and with a high focus on lawfulness. It would also draw upon Sembian pride and ambition. Since we'd be in 4E I'd imagine Lathander will have taken on the mantle of Amaunator and become Lawful Good. He'd be similar to Horus-Re in nature with clear ties to his old personality. Under him he'd have Torm, Ilmater, Red Knight, Gond, Selune, Oghma, and Chauntea. Think of it as a mini-pantheon. I plan to play up the whole 'gods as saints' business based on different views by different churches. The Church of Lathander above would view those deities as subservient to Lathander, who is head of the Pantheon, but there would be others (possibly even other Lathanderites and especially those who follow some of the subservient deities) who would disagree.
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 01:17 AM	Yes, I completely agree with all of your assessments. My only problem is location - namely its neighbor - Cormyr. -I don't see any reason why Cormyr would object to having such a state right next door to them. In fact, I could see the King of Cormyr (Azoun VI, or whatever his name was) funding organizations to oppose the puppet government of Sembia, due to their ties to the Shadovar.
Khaelieth 01-28-08, 03:50 AM	I believe the Shades destroyed a Cormyrean city? Shouldn't that be enough to make them support Sembia?
Meldread 01-28-08, 03:52 AM	Yes, it would be good in the beginning. The problem is everything that happens after that point. Sembian's and Cormyrian's have never really had that great of a relationship. Even under a theocracy, it is hard to really change the culture of a people. They were ambitious and expansionistic by nature. What always held Sembia back was the political in fighting among the various internal factions. Their biggest weakness would be replaced by a strong and unified government, made up of mostly Sembian's, who will carry over their cultural beliefs. So while yes it is good in the short term, you are looking at potential border conflicts between them both once Sembia has managed to stabilize and rebuild herself. Sembia was also expanding out into the Dalelands - something they would also continue to do. And Cormyr's king, by the time of the Spellplague is what... 10 years old? That leaves a lot of room for instability in Cormyr - not counting the devastation of the Spellplague itself and what it would do to one of their main defenses against Sembia - the War Wizards. It's just difficult for me to picture in my minds eye what it will be like. Thematically I would like for the Theocracy of Sembia to be focused on expansion of their empire / kingdom, while battling the 'evils' of the world. The downside is that I am not sure what Cormyr will be like in 10 to 15 years. Their new king could easily set them on a path of conquest and expansion which would of course bring them into direct competition with Sembia. I can really, in the end, imagine only two scenarios: 1. Cormyr becomes a protectorate - a territory or state under Sembian rule. 2. Cormyr is brought under Sembian rule through force. Being lawful good does not necessarily preclude you from also being ambitious. :P Of course, this might be able to work another way. Basically, the Lathanderites come together to push out the Shades, and they are given aid by Cormyr. They are successful, and Sembia is basically annexed into Cormyr. It is no longer a theocracy, but it now is under a similar relationship as some Medieval Kingdoms were to the Catholic Church. The king of Cormyr rules through divine right, and that divine right is given through the church, who in turn controls the people. So in essence the king of Cormyr and the Church are in a symbiotic relationship, with the church having a slight edge.
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 09:54 AM	Of course, this might be able to work another way. Basically, the Lathanderites come together to push out the Shades, and they are given aid by Cormyr. They are successful, and Sembia is basically annexed into Cormyr. It is no longer a theocracy, but it now is under a similar relationship as some Medieval Kingdoms were to the Catholic Church. The king of Cormyr rules through divine right, and that divine right is given through the church, who in turn controls the people. So in essence the king of Cormyr and the Church are in a symbiotic relationship, with the church having a slight edge. -That works, too. The basic premise of someone rising up, with the power of Lathander/Amaunator and lifting the metaphorical/literal shadow over Sembia.
XHereticX 01-28-08, 03:53 PM	-That works, too. The basic premise of someone rising up, with the power of Lathander/Amaunator and lifting the metaphorical/literal shadow over Sembia. A Catholic Church in a world of magic. That could be....a problem...:(
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 04:06 PM	A Catholic Church in a world of magic. That could be....a problem...:( -Not really. There are plenty of theocracies in fantasy settings, including settings that are polytheistic, like the Realms. So long as these Lathanderites don't begin professing anything "out of character", it's all good.
XHereticX 01-28-08, 04:08 PM	-Not really. There are plenty of theocracies in fantasy settings, including settings that are polytheistic, like the Realms. So long as these Lathanderites don't begin professing anything "out of character", it's all good. I've always hated Lathander and his faithful, and if they take on the darker characteristics of a theocracy and especialyl appeal to the poor and distraught, it could be a problem. If RAS writes it, we're doomed:P
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 04:31 PM	If RAS writes it, we're doomed:P -That could be said for any element of the Realms. Pacifistic Eldathans, for example.
Meldread 01-29-08, 06:50 AM	A Catholic Church in a world of magic. That could be....a problem... One word: Mulhorand. :P Theocracies exist in the Realm's and my general idea is something of a hybrid between Cormyr (as it is now) and the Church of Horus-Re. Keep in mind how the 4E deities will be portrayed - with a deity at the top and servitor deities under him/her. I imagine it being like a mini-pantheon within a pantheon, and I think it gives us more flexibility overall, where how you worship can change from church to church. Where views on who serves a deity changing from church to church. Where over all a deity becomes less of the focus and the Church and its leaders become the center piece of discussion.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 10:12 AM	-Lathander will undoubtedly be the head of "his pantheon" come 4e. What other deities do you think will serve under him?
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:04 AM	-Amaunthor will undoubtedly be the head of "his pantheon" come 4e. What other deities do you think will serve under him? I'm guessing the Triad are going to become his servantboys.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 01:53 PM	-There's no reason to believe that Amaunthor is going to make a return. Remember, the Risen Sun is a heresy, and that the most important factor of his return, the everlasting sun over Elversuit, was created by a mortal worshipper and leader of the Risen Sun heretics. That doesn't show me anything except that this individual wants Amaunthor to return. In fact, I think there is more compelling circumstantial evidence to support Lathander remaining the way he is, rather than morphing into Amaunthor.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 01:59 PM	I find the chances of wonderboy suddenly becoming a great and respected leader quite slim. The Risen Sun heresy gained such power after all, so it's only logical that Lathander make the transition.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:20 PM	I find the chances of wonderboy suddenly becoming a great and respected leader quite slim. The Risen Sun heresy gained such power after all, so it's only logical that Lathander make the transition. -They haven't gained very much power. They've 'converted' the clergy of Elversuit and the nearby town, but that's about it. There was an interesting exchange between heretics and true Lathanderites (Abelar Corrinthal) in the first few pages of Shadow Storm.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:31 PM	-They haven't gained very much power. They've 'converted' the clergy of Elversuit and the nearby town, but that's about it. There was an interesting exchange between heretics and true Lathanderites (Abelar Corrinthal) in the first few pages of Shadow Storm. I've read the book, and loved it. I personally think that the Risen Sun will prevail, especially as it seems to be the canon for the chruch at large at the moment. Maybe his name will stay as Lathander and he woudn't become exactly like Amaunthor. But I predict Lathander will be changed in some way shape or form.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:43 PM	I've read the book, and loved it. I personally think that the Risen Sun will prevail, especially as it seems to be the canon for the chruch at large at the moment. -It isn't, though. That's what I mean. Only the church in Elversuit, and the nearby town are convinced that it is emminent. The Clergy at large does not.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:45 PM	-It isn't, though. That's what I mean. Only the church in Elversuit, and the nearby town are convinced that it is emminent. The Clergy at large does not. Ahh, that would be a misinterpretation on my part, and wishful thinking...:embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 03:05 PM	Eversult, not Elversuit.;)
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 03:13 PM	-Yeah, that one.
Mailik 02-12-08, 04:51 AM	Anyway, this might be of some use - Seven Stars rise blue and silver, three tears fall gold and royal, darkness among seven silver stars once more, and three above shall cry Couldn't this relate to the death of Mystra (again). Its been awhile since I delved into the Forgotten realms but wasn't Mystra's symbol 7 stars and Selune has a trail of "tears" that follow her across the sky. The darkness would be Shar working her antics...last part I have no clue about.
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 09:47 AM	Thats why I later quoted Ed's comments about that passage - El's comments on that particular 'Quatrain' are as follows - "E'en a simpleton such as Manshoon might suggest the images tie to Mystra, Selūne, and Talona by their colors and symbols. For that very reason, I caution ye away from such conclusions - any answer simply found in an oracle's tale is oft the wrong one" According to him, the obvious answer is usually the wrong one. But you never know. ;) BTW, for some reason, my mind always reads that name as Everslut. :eek: I read it wrong the first time, and now I keep seeing that way, even though I know better. Also, the new cosmological set-up sounds ideal for monotheistic-style churchs springing up. I guess the tyrannical LG church of Anu I created down in Ulgarth will be rising in power come 4e. :devil:
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:00 PM	BTW, for some reason, my mind always reads that name as Everslut. :eek: -You're just a sick, sick individual. We've already established that, though. :P