Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Renvale999 07-10-07, 07:37 PM	Hey there everyone, I've had an idea I have been pondering for a long time now and I wanted to get the opinions of all those on the FR boards about it. My idea is this: A large empire, probably from one of the "Unknown Lands" in the FRCS book, musters and large and nigh un-beatable army (imagine number of soldiers in the hundreds of thousands with re-inforcements twice that size) to invade the Faerun and subjecate all of it's people. Before I go any further I have something to ask of you. Please, pretty please, don't squash my idea with "Elminster and the Chosen would step in and save everyone." I have no doubt that if and when I run this campaign, Elminster and company would cause heavy casualties among the empire's armies, but for my storie's sake, they would realize the futility of fighting and go underground to start resistance movements. This empire would have highly trained soldiers(all of them are fighters instead of warriors) and mages with power to rival that of Halruaa and even Thay. Their god would be an all-knowing, all-seeing divine being(according to their priest and priestess's) that is the one true god and all others are merely pretenders. It is by divine right that the empire conquer all before it. I want the empire to resemble Rome, but with an evilish tint to it, that is, that their armor, from the highest general to the lowliest soldier is black and red and meant to intimidate and those not with the empire are against and it and put to quick and immediate death. The story line would evolve as the PC's fight in the war but are on the losing side as Faerun is steadily conquered, with them eventually leading the resistance movements. In the end though, the PC's realize that the empire's power starts and stops with the emperor(I'm thinking some sort of unique undead, although only his closest advisors know the truth of his current state. He would be a conduit for both the mages and priests power...as you can tell I haven't really fleshed out all the details). Eventually the PC's would undertake the dangerous mission of crossing over the sea and taking down the emperor. I'm asking for advice, ideas, even previous campaigns that you have run like this and what problems you ran into to. Any and all input is welcome. Thank you for reading, sorry it's so long.
Drew1369r 07-10-07, 08:21 PM	Interesting idea... Remove the Chosen from the equation... being who they are they would be very very prime assassin targets and need to stay in hiding where only the chosen know where the chosen are. Say they have the Gleaners[epic] on retainer to call and take them out when they show themselves. Of course they would most likely survive an attack by why would they risk it. The BBEG perhaps make a gestault wizard/cleric as the chosen of his, that way you don't have to waste time on deving an actual chosen package for him. Make sure the bad guy army is as diverse as all others, shock troops for the initial assault with heavy infantry backing them up... and then the all important spec-ops division aka the adventuring group. Make one up... the PC's army gets one (them) why wouldn't they? Also if they don't have one in the begining they will soon as soon as the PC's start thwarting plans.
Ioulaum 07-10-07, 09:08 PM	I will leave the chosen's out of it. But does your empire have enough Magic to take on Silvermoon, Evermeet, New Myth Dannar, Shades, City of High Magic and the hundreds or so high level good align Archmage and Liches? That is not including the High level Clerics. Also any invasion of that size and every god on Faerun would sending warning to their followers. Your invading empire might not even get thier troops across the sea. The first thing that came to mind was how are you going to get that many troops across the sea? Also how are you going to feed a army that size? By conventional means 2/3 of that army might not even cross the ocean alive. By Magic? the entire army might not make across the any magical gateway. I will give you a example: Thay, Harulurra and Shades keep your emipres mages busy. The Elven High Mages form Evermeet, Myth Dannar and City of High Sorcery combine to cast a High Magic spell. The entire gets swamp under a gigantic tidal wave. No need for Chosens of any gods to get involve. It is your campiang so you can do whatever you like but remeber the Chosen's aren't the only high level power on Faerun. They are just the most famous. PS. Did i mention Larloch and his 60+ liches? Also considering the size of Faerun, you will more then Hundreds of Thousands, you will need Millions. The people of Faerun are use to dealing with Orc Hoards in the hundred of thousands. Ioulaum who is now a Lich Elder Brain took on a entire hoard in his younger days and destroy it entirely.
Rauric 07-10-07, 09:47 PM	Has anyone noticed that many of the Chosen are being removed? I think many of the good high level NPCs will be taken out the the FR equation soon. Just a thought. So your players step up to the plate and beat down the baddies without saying " Why doesn't Elminster just bring some of his buddies here and handle these baddies?";)
boards 07-10-07, 11:20 PM	If Faerun can generate awesomely high level mages what is stopping these unknown lands from having the same. If it is an empire, more than likely the mages are part of the state, rather than working on their own, which is a big help. Would the elves of Evermeet care if a foreign army descended on Faerun, Evereska is fairly well hidden, as is the new elf city, and I dont think Myth Drannor has any high mages yet (besides Araevin). Thay, Halruua and Shade would not work together even presuming Halruua would care about the rest of Faerun, and Larloch sits in his cave working magic without bothering about the outside world. Renvale999 trying looking at the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan, or the Serpent War Saga by Raymond E Feist, both have a similar storyline to this.
Crust 07-10-07, 11:26 PM	Read the Empire trilogy: Horselords, Dragonwall, and Crusade. Faerun was invaded in 1360 by Yamun Khahan and his 100,000 horselords. This trilogy follows that army from its creation, through its conquering of Shou Lung, and on into Faerun, where King Azoun himself took to the field with his army. Zhents, Thay, Cormyr, and all of eastern Faerun are considered. Those books might give you some ideas or help with perspective. I recommend making your "Roman" emperor a fallen solar (perhaps a titan or polymorphed devil). Delusions of godhood, the appearance of beauty and kindness but with that psycotic layer just beneath, and awful power could be an interesting combination. ;)
Agudo Archmage 07-11-07, 12:10 AM	I like your idea with the Empire, having a very strong religious bent In fact make it like Amn, where Mages are hunted down, and very few practice magic This way Religion/Clerics dominate the fanatical part of your story/Empire-building Kind of like how Drow prefer women Clerics over wizards in general Maybe they have set out to rid the lands of arcane users As far as an undead ruler….umm a wee bit predictable Thay and so on have done it over and over Try a Non-human race as the Empire main populace Minotaur, are very Greek like, and have a strong culture/pride that equals Elf’s
Zevox 07-11-07, 12:18 AM	Yeah, an invasion of the entire continent is going to be doomed to failure. Doing that you're not just going to run into petty troubles with the Chosen of Mystra, you're going to face everyone on the damn continent. You're talking about being opposed by folks like Szass Tam, Telamont Tanthul and the princes of Shade, Halaster Blackcloak, the many Chosen across the Realms (not just Mystra's - theres a list here of all known ones, and its all but certain there are Chosen who haven't been revealed yet out there), Aumvor the Undying, the Realms' many Dragons (some, like the great Gold Dragon Wizard Nexus, are far more powerful than even the more famous folks mentioned above), the Twister Rune and its many powerful members, Larloch and his sixty Lich servants, and so many others (I haven't even gone into Elves yet). Hells, something like that may even rouse Ioulaum or the sixty Sarrukh Liches of Oreme out of their little underground realms to repulse the invaders, and perhaps even attract the attention of other, unknown entities (who knows - perhaps Vhostym wasn't the only Githvyrik out there to have an affinity for Faerūn). Plus, like Ioulaum said, hundreds of thousands of soldiers will not be enough - there are some nations that could could probably beat such an army alone, and certainly they'd never take multiple nations working together. A million soldiers will not be enough. You're looking at needing millions (plural) of soldiers, with mages powerful enough that they won't be squashed the moment they get serious attention from Faerūn's many powerful inhabitants backing them up. And all this isn't even factoring in the hundreds of highly-active divinities overseeing the Realms. Yeah, conquering any one or two nations out of the continent might be a doable goal for a powerful empire. Trying to conquer the entire continent is just out of the realm of believability and into the realm of suicide. Zevox
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 01:44 AM	Actually Yamun Khahan attacked Shou with a grand total of 210, 000 troops! He had more stationed in Semphar and Khazari, and only utilized 2/3 of his army at any one time (the rest had 'off'), bringing the TOTAL number of armed men at his disposal to 500,000!!! And he still lost... :nonono: I like your idea with the Empire, having a very strong religious bent This way Religion/Clerics dominate the fanatical part of your story/Empire-building This is very important, because it should be the whole reason you can counter all of the high level casters. Your 'High Priests' or whatever should have a very simple and effective way of removing the threat of high level casters. Basically, they should have the power of seperating any caster from the Weave, so that they cannot access it. With that simple little ability it makes the whole thing VERY do-able... Renvale999 trying looking at the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan, or the Serpent War Saga by Raymond E Feist, both have a similar storyline to this.I was going to bring up the WoT books myself - they have the invading empire that is able to crush all opposition, and cut magic-users off from "the flow" (magic). They also enslave the MU's and put collars on them like animals, and only allow them to cast spells in their service. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I can just see most of the High-levs going underground after people like Elminster are killed easily by common soldiers. If the Faerūnians can't count on magic to save them, they are in big trouble. I've toyed with this same idea awhile myself. I would play it exactly as the Seanchan in WoT did - they invaded a small and little-cared about nation first, using it as a beachhead for their future campaigns. They took control of that country and brought in tens of thousands of their troops, and most of the other countries didn't really know what was going on, and didn't care about that region much to begin with. Then, in the early spring of the following year, they rolled over several other small countries, and folks began to notice them and some started discussing if something should be done. No one could agree on anything, and most of the countries were unwilling to co-operate, or simply didn't believe the horror stories coming from the other side of the continent. By the time the whole continent realized they were in trouble, the Seanchan had gobbled up a good quarter of the map, and took out many heavy-hitters on the way. So, I would reccomend the same thing. Start with an attack and total domination of Dambrath by the 'newcomers'. Most folks will applaud their actions. These invaders could start out acting friendly to neighboring nations while they brought in more and more weapons and troops. Then they could send ultimatums to a few of the other smaller countries, like Luiren, or Estagund, to submit and swear loyalty (wich, of course, they won't). Then in a suprise move they take out Halrua instead! :devil: They will have been exspecting attacks to the east, not the west. An army that had the ability to 'shut-off magic' would overun Halrua's paltry conventional force within a week. Then, after all the Mages are properly 'collared' or executed, they take out Luiren, Estagund, The Shininmg Lands, and finally Ulgarth, securing their rear flank. Then they start eating countries one at a time. If they attack Calimshan, who would aid them? How about Amn next? The Sythilisians and Amnites might have to ally just to stay alive. Then they could 'squish' Tethyr from two directions. Tethyr, unlike the last two, has allies, but by the time they brought an effective force south it might just be too late. One by one the Realms would fall. Most have been so insular that they would look to their own defense before even considering helping another country. In the end, everyone, god and bad, would have to team-up to try and stop this undefeatable foe. Picture it - Harpers fighting along side Zentarrim, The Simbul fighting back-to-back with Szass Tam, Drow standing firm with Gold Elves, Obould and his Orcs fighting side-by-side with Bruenor Battlehammer and his Dwarves... IT WOULD BE GLORIOUS!!! And in the end, you would have the World of Darkness, where heroes must hide, and commoners are but slaves to the invaders. Someone will have to go into the east, and bring back the Tuigan, along with armies of Shou, and T'u Lung, and maybe even Wa and Kozakura. These peoples are used to fighting wars with massive armies and little magic, and in the end they may be faerūun's only hope... Oh, and one last thing - don't make the 'big baddy' Undead... it's too cliche'. Try taking a look at one of the Dragon Kings of Athas. A mortal with the magical might of a demi-god, and powerful psionics to boot! And last not forget he grants spells to his followers, those nasty ebil Templars! Its different, and you could even use the rest of the Athasians as your army; War-machines made out of bones! How cool is that? ;)
Ianten_Silverblade 07-11-07, 01:59 AM	An interesting scenario for Faerūn future but if I may ask have you changed any of the past events in Faerūn to suit your needs for this path of Faerūn's future? I would find it strange that the powers of Faerūn itself would not have known about a coming invasion from a distant and unexplored region of Faerūn. Then again, I find it absurd that Elminster and Storm let a Zhentarim/Sharian invasion force conquer the Dalelands, that Khelben is dead (at least that's what I read in Khelben's Wikipedia article), and that Damara has been nearly annihilated by the Cult of the Dragon's interference in the recent Dragon Rage which swept across Faerūn.
Meldread 07-11-07, 08:29 AM	With all the RSE's going on as of late, now would be the time - more than ever - for an invading army to make its move. Entire nations, once powerful, lay in ruins or are just beginning to pick up the pieces. I suggest you go with overkill when it comes to power. Don't throw the Chosen out of the equation - they aren't the only powerful beings - take them into account and compensate for it. Go for overkill. If they are a problem, just create something even greater than them - something they can't hope to stand against even united - and your problem is solved. I also suggest having the invaders from another planet, instead of from Toril. I am going to assume you are using the Great Wheel as your cosmology, and even if not you can still modify this to work. If this is the case here is how I would have things play out. ---- The story would begin nearly 28,000 years ago on another planet. On this planet, like on Toril a magical Weave is how magic is drawn. Unfortunately, for some strange reason the gods have been growing weaker. They seem to be losing their power and as that happens the Weave on that world begins to lose its power as well. There is panic throughout the planet. However, there is also hope. A Wizard by the name of Tantus Vol has located a source of untapped power - a power that seems to be growing. It seems that this power could be used as an alternative fuel for arcane spells. However, Tantus also finds that there seems to be a barrier preventing him from accessing it directly. Through rigorous research he devises a spell that would allow him to break through the barrier and access the power that lay beyond. It is a risky proposition, though, because in making this attempt it will use up most of the magic left behind within the Weave of their planet. Tantus and thirty other wizards all of them of great power, come together to cast a powerful epic spell and it is successful. The barrier is breached, but what lay beyond it was unimaginable to them all. Long ago, when powerful beings - such as Ao - were the primary forces of the multiverse there was a powerful being known only as the Devourer. It cared little for life. As Overgods created crystal spheres such as Toril, the Devourer sought to dominate and destroy them. To prevent this, beings such as Ao, came together and sealed the Devourer away, and over time, this prison began to weaken. The Devourer was draining the power of the gods of their planet, and it was because of this that Tantus was able to sense the prison and the power that lay beyond. He did not free the Devourer - the Devourer could not escape through such an opening. The prison still exists. However, he did make it possible for the Devourer to claim a host. As the spell was cast Tantus last moments were in horror as he instantly realized what was happening, and he watched as the other wizards with him had their very essences - their souls and life - consumed. In a way he suffered a similar fate. Tantus Vol the man died there that day, as a fraction of the essence of the Devourer merged with him forging a new being. A being that has direct access to the prison and a living vessel - an avatar of sorts - was forged. Tantus Vol became, literally in every way imaginable a living god made flesh. One would expect that a being such as the Devourer would have overridden and surpassed mortal follies and thoughts, transcending beyond that to something greater. That was not the case. Instead, they have fused together as one being. Tantus mortal mind was destroyed that day, giving life to a new being. A spawn of sorts between him and the Devourer. It is this spawn, which has taken his name, that now controls his body and it is but a fragment of the greater being of the Devourer. Magic in the world could once again be accessed, and it was even more powerful than it was before but as all things it came at a price. The gods of that world were devoured the moment Tantus breeched the prison. Their portfolios and powers came to rest upon his shoulders. A new Weave replaced the old but this power flowed through Tantus himself as he acts as a conduit between the prison and the outside world. The use of this new Weave empowers Tantus as the use of the Weave empowers Mystra on Toril. Tantus with this newfound power and personality, becoming the only existing god in the entire crystal sphere, then turns his sights on more mortal ambitions. Power. In only a few short years time he has a formidable Empire that spans an entire continent and servants in every corner of the globe giving praise to his name. Within a decade he has a firm rule over the entire planet. From the ashes of the old gods Emperor Vol, the Immortal Emperor, the Imperial God, grants immortality to his most loyal servants and to those who served him well he grants a form of godhood. Under Emperor Vol are Seven Lesser Gods who have no clergy of their own, but draw from the fountain of power that springs forth from the Emperor himself. In a way it works similar to how Mystra funnels some of her divine power into her Chosen but on a much grander scale. Like Tantus Vol these lesser deities are flesh and they walk the world in their full glory and power, even if it is but a fraction of their masters. Vol has the ability to strip them of this power at any time, indeed he can end their very existence on a whim if desired. This ensures that he is never challenged, for while he rules tyrannically he is quick to give rewards for good service. Over thousands of years Tantus Vol and his Empire have left their world to conquer others. At least eight different crystal spheres now lay within the domain of the Empire and two more are in the process of being conquered. Now, a third is in jeopardy as well: Abeir-Toril. Fifteen days ago, Tantus Vol to ensure that his Empire could have access to all Crystal Spheres conquered Sigil. It has long been the dream of many gods to hold Sigil as their own personal domain. It gives them unprecedented access to any place imaginable. Tantus Vol and his Seven Chosen now claim the city as their own, having slain the Lady of Pain and all inhabitances within the city in a battle that lasted only sixty seven seconds. The city itself as it was once known is gone. It is replaced by something of the Emperor's own design. It is now proclaimed the Capital City of the Empire, and from here he commands his legions upon countless worlds, conquering them one by one, bringing more and more of them into the Imperial fold. Their deities are consumed by Tantus and their power funneled through him to the Devourer. One world, Toril, a long Forgotten Realm is now remembered by an ancient enemy of Lord Ao. An enemy that is bent on revenge. ---- Basically, it goes like this. Have a portal open between Sigil and some far off place. I personally would go with Zakhara, Maztica or Anchorome. Whichever you choose it matters little. All that matters is that you keep in mind that this Empire has access to near infinite power. Their active military literally numbers in the billions. When that portal opens, millions of soldiers, wizards, priests, scouts - an entire army numbering in the millions is going to pass into Toril. With that army is going to come Avatars of the Living Gods, including the Emperor. They are just like normal gods; they can still create Avatars. Wherever they appear is almost within a month or so, going to be completely under their control. There will be no possible resistance given. Within a year they will have enough people stationed there to seize control of all of Faerun and beyond. I personally would go with Zakhara. I would then have those troops march north into the Utter East and Shining South basically following the outline Markus gave you. As a demonstration of the power Tantus wields the moment the portal opens Lord Ao falls silent. He seems too just disappear. He is not dead, but imprisoned in a similar manor as the Devourer. The other deities do not know what is going on and naturally, without Ao they begin their petty squabbles. With no daddy around to give them a spanking when they misbehave - they do just that - misbehave. The deities that exist wherever they appear are consumed instantly upon Tantus arrival. Their deaths are permanent and they do not even leave corpses on the Astral Plane, because their entire divine spark is consumed. In effect this is worse than death for any deity. As further demonstration of the Emperors power the gods will not be able to detect what is happening in the area. If a deity attempts to manifest its powers within any proximity under the Emperors control it fails and they lose one divine rank. If they send an avatar that avatar dies and they lose divine rank equivalent to the Avatar they sent. You can think of him as a deific black hole. Any god or divine being who gets within close proximity is consumed. This effectively ensures that the meddling of the gods is not a problem. The Emperor also has the ability to attach himself to any divine being like a parasite and slowly begin to drain their divine power. This is a slow process that can be made even slower in some cases if other deities are willing to sacrifice some of their own power to bolster the one under assault. Once you are ready to begin the main assault of Faerun it would be a good time to have the Emperor to connect up with Mystra and begin draining her divine power. This would in turn send ripple effects through the Weave, causing magic to act in unpredictable ways. This solves the problem of high-level spell casters. Any individual can switch to the Imperial Weave that will begin to manifest itself on Toril upon their arrival. The Imperial Forces will use this Weave instead of Mystra's or Shar's to ensure they cannot be cut off. This functions normally and is even more powerful than the normal Weave. There are no dead magic or wild magic zones, and any such zones are repaired automatically and almost instantly. The Imperial Weave has the ability to cast up to 12th level spells easily without a great deal of strain, but spells above 9th are denied to all but a very select few. However, for all users of the Imperial Weave there are no damage limits. A spell that does 1d6 points of damage per level continues to rise in level without a cap. This means that at level 50 the spell will do 50d6 points of damage. The down side to this is that the Emperor, at will, can sever any user of his Weave at a moments notice without any extra strain upon himself. ---- Now, that we have established the power and abilities of the Emperor. (Well a fraction of them at least.) We should take a look at how to handle the situation. While the Emperor is effectively immune to any form of divine retribution, and his greatest ability is to move between worlds as a mortal would, at full power, this is also his greatest weakness. While he possesses the power to consume gods this has no effect on mortals. Of course, he is formidable even without this ability and can lay waste to even the most powerful of foe. Still, he can be defeated like any other deity. The easiest way to do this is to slay those he makes immortal and the Seven Deities that serve him. The Seven are in a similar position as he is in as they are divine beings made flesh as well. If they are killed it is as if there is a rubber band snapping and their power comes flying back to Vol at full force. It then rips through him and is consumed by the Devourer. (He is simply a conduit for the Devourers power.) This temporarily weakens him but he can recover over time. If all Seven are slain within a short period Vol could then be more easily defeated. However, that is not strictly necessary if a group of mortals is powerful enough. (Level 60+ to take Vol on at full power, level 30+ to take Vol on after being weakened.) Still, there is yet another way. It has its own dangers involved as well as a price to be paid. Few are foolish enough to make the attempt, though it may be easier than fighting Vol directly. Journey to the breach itself and seal it. No deity can approach the breach to seal it, and no user of the Imperial Weave would dare make the attempt. The moment this happens all imbued with power from Vol, from his most trusted Immortal servants to the Seven Deities, to Vol himself will be devoured instantly. As the breach is sealed it like a rubber band snapping and all who have been touched by the Devourer are pulled into his prison and once inside they are consumed, utterly and completely. As a result of the prison being resealed the Imperial Weave will cease to function. All magic items created with the Imperial Weave become mundane. There will be no way to escape the world as the Empire collapses almost over night and magic ceases to function. However, this fate can be escaped if Vol himself can be drawn out into Faerun (or faced in Sigil) and killed. The same result happens however, the group can still return home. As Vol acts as a conduit for the Devourer killing him will send his essence into the prison where he will be utterly consumed. The prison itself will be reinforced naturally and resealed safely. There is also another alternative. A method to close the breach could fail and instead of closing it the breach is hurled open. This destroys the prison and allows the Devourer to once again be free. All life on the planet is consumed and dies. Including the players. The Devourer then begins to once again roam the multiverse consuming and killing entire crystal spheres, Toril being one of them. This is what I would do and how I would handle it.
Rauric 07-11-07, 08:35 AM	There is a ton of instability in the Realms now. The whole continent falling would not happen but some nations might possibly fall under the sway of the new Empire.
dragonheart 07-11-07, 09:12 AM	bluntly put - in my opinion the whole idea is way off.It might make sense in other worlds (both gaming and fiction) but it is 180 degrees opposite the entire feel for the FR. From AO down the Realms is about small groups not empires. A things to remember: 1. clerical magic is run through the weave as well as arcane - mystra can cut off clerics as well as mages and in case like this she definitely would if they start cutting off all the mages from the weave to forward the battles - then where is your army's ability to counter the mages of Faerun? 2. even if the folk of the realms have no knowledge of the other continents the gods of the world do - they have to interact with the deites at their borders and they would know from that well in advance what was likely to be in store and already be setting up their folks to repulse the deity's attempts at deicide (which is what the invasion really is) 3. transport and supply of the huge numbers is effectively impossible wihtout huge amounts of magic - all that really has to be done is to block their access to the weave - which Mystra would do in a heartbeat if the alternative was the her own and every other deity's death. 4. strategically armies don't dodge around unoccupied land to invade folks not their neighbors - where is theis army coming from? The remains of the Horde are still in the endless wastes with all of KAratur beyond - word would certainly come racing ahead of any invasion from that direction. to the south is Zakhara - again word would leak out well before they made it through to Faerun proper and defenses would be well established. to the north are the frozen wastes - not a reasonable attack or supply route. to the east is Maztica and anchrome. Maztica is already fairly well detailed and while much weaker that KAratur or Zakhara warning would still come as the peoples flee the invaders and then the coastal bases are attacked and overcome. ANchrome is perhapss the best potential home but even it is detailed to some extent in canon and not an easy place simply because of teh size of the ocean and having to go through or past Evermeet - any nonelven "scouting" incursions would set off lots of alarms there and some reverse scouting would bring about actions from the remaining high mages that would tend to clean out the potential invasion as it starts a or before (anyone for a replay if the shifting that created Evermeet?)
Renvale999 07-11-07, 10:04 AM	Wow, thanks for all the input guys, atleast some of you like the idea :P As far as how the Empire would counter Mystra, the simple fact is that their own diety controls their magic and therefore is out of Mystra's domain(kind of like the Yuzhong Vong(can't spell) in star wars being outside the influence of the Force). The empire's mages would have spells and abilties to counter mages of Faerun and would be just as powerful as those on Faerun, even more so, being the fact that they have divine backing. And some of you are right, I would probably have to up the number of soldiers, but at the same time you have to remember that the soldiers of the Empire are trained soldiers(fighters/rangers/Paladins(of Tyranny) and the average rank and file soldier of the Empire is far beyond the common militia men or warrior. And to answer your question Markus, I have read Wheel of Time, although the campaign isn't really based on that...it's not some fortold prophecy that the PC"s are battling the Empire, it's just the fact that they survived the War and are battling the forces of the Empire because it's the right thing to do. And yes again markus I do like the idea of evil fighting along side good, that was one of the major points of the story, I might even allow good PC's to work with evil PC's, to see if they can see past their differences and work towards a common goal.
Dielzen 07-11-07, 11:37 AM	In such a scenario, however, both sides won't work together until they realize that they can't handle it themselves, and it may be too late at that point. Everyone will laugh and defend their town/realm and watch their neighbors die, knowing that it makes the enemy weaker at no cost to themselves. Sure, they'll figure it out eventually, but will enough power be left to turn the tide once they do?
Renvale999 07-11-07, 01:01 PM	In such a scenario, however, both sides won't work together until they realize that they can't handle it themselves, and it may be too late at that point. Everyone will laugh and defend their town/realm and watch their neighbors die, knowing that it makes the enemy weaker at no cost to themselves. Sure, they'll figure it out eventually, but will enough power be left to turn the tide once they do? Very true Dielzen, I guarentee you neither Luskan nor Waterdeep will come to the aid of the other and yes by the time both sides think they need to unite it will be too late. I plan on the entire continent of Faerun being conquered in a matter of a few years. During this time will be the beginning of the campaign, where the PC's are fighting bravely and costing the Empire many valueable assets, but eventually they will realize that they can't win against the sheer might and strength of the Empire. That's when it will be found out about the Empire that the Emperor is a direct conduit between the Mages and Priests and their god. If you kill the Emperor, all their powerful spell-casters cease to be useful (the direct link allows the spell-casters be far more powerful than they would normally be able too, basically the Emperor is their greatests strength and their greatest weakness, since so much is depended on him), and up until that point, every order on the battlefield and beyond has come from the Emperor himself, so in-fighting will ensue Just my ideas.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 02:16 PM	That was my whole point - The Realms would fall because almost no-one would help their neighbors. King Azoun did, but he was smart enough to realize how big the threat was, and then he even allied with Zhents and fought along side Orcs! Smart man, that Azoun... but he's dead now, and there's not another like him. The Kings of Tethyr or Impiltur might be able to eventually convince folks of an alliance the same way, but it would probably be way too late by then. No one would cry if Dambrath fell. Just picture it -crack troops armed with Helmets of Light, capable of created a beam of pure daylight, bursting into T'lindhet with scores of giant burrowing beetles brought from their home. Soldiers more then capable of taking down the average Drow, and god-priests capable of cutting off Lolth's magic! Can you picture it? Lolth running to Mystra crying "Foul"!, and Mystra not understanding what the Hell is going on. Calimshan would fall exactly the same way, and through it the great Temple city of Guallidurth. Do you think other Drow would come to their aid? I think not, unless Lolth herself beseeched them to do so (and she just might). No-one would help those two surface nations, and certainly not the Underdark ones. It is because of this total lack of unity that the Realms would fall easily to a mighty, organized, military power. Someone mentioned magic won't work unless Mystra deems it so. Not true - Mystra has supreme comand of everything that happens pertaining to the Weave; she only has partial control of magic outside the Weave (Shadoweave, Pluma, etc...). Even if thats not so in canon (which it should be), the OP is the DM and can decide WHATEVER HE WANTS. I would prefer the invaders be from somewhere local, like that huge island far to the south of Zakhara. Perhaps they have already landed 100,000 troops outside of Huzuz (Zakharan Capital), demanding the Grand Caliph to swear fealty to the 'new empire'. The sight of 100 Huge warships sitting in and outside his harbor would have him agreeing to ANYTHING real fast. If you follow the logical preogression of warfare in WoT, the invaders would install a few 'advisors' in various cities, and keep a small force of about 10,000 troops within the capital, 'gaurding' the Caliph.There you go - an entire sub-continent taken in under 24 hours, with little or no bloodshed. You do not need to defeat a nation, only its rulers. And if you think those numbers are impossible, the ancient greeks built ships that had 4000 rowers, 2850 Soldiers, and 400 Sailors! If they could do THAT, with limited technology and NO magic, just think what a more advanced and magical people could come up with. I was being generous with my figures - with the Greek 'Leviathan' class double-Octares only 35 ships would have been required to land that many marines, and that's not even including the 140,000 Rowers and 14,000 Sailors! Now imagine 100 ships that sized, armed with (Greek) fire-projectors, catapults, and a contingent of Mage-priests, or perhaps even huge bombarbs designed to use Smokepowder. Its not only do-able, its a wonder someone like Alexander hasn't arisen in the Realms and done it. None of the early RW empires were powerful enough to take out all of their enemies at the same time - quite the contrary. Often they would find allies amongst the 'barbarians' and use their own people against them, promising them riches and rulership under the empire. Greed is a powerful tool; you think Szass Tam, the Cult of the Dragon, or the Zhents would be beyond allying with these invaders just to save their own skins? Not only would such tactics work, but they would work VERY well in the Realms. All the enemy has to do is chip-away at the countries a few at a time until it's too late. And a DM can create any kind of Uber-Baddy he wants, including one that could duplicate Mystra's ability to cut someone off from the Weave. Perhaps these newcomers use Raw Magic, and actually rend the weave where ever they attack? Then only their magic would work; can you just imagine it? The Shades might be the only people who could effectively use magic against them, and everone would have to rally around Shadovar!:eek: How cool would that be, to turn the tables and make Shade the good guys for a change? ;)
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 02:42 PM	Wow, thanks for all the input guys, atleast some of you like the idea :P As far as how the Empire would counter Mystra, the simple fact is that their own diety controls their magic and therefore is out of Mystra's domain(kind of like the Yuzhong Vong(can't spell) in star wars being outside the influence of the Force). Unless you are using house rules. The canon fact is Mystra is the WEAVE and controls all magic for all of Toril and all races. Other gods migh control varioation of the magic profillio but Mystra is MAGIC as far as FR is concern. Trying to cut mages of form the weave is direct assault on her profillio and would be possible without another god and that means a god war. In such a scenario, however, both sides won't work together until they realize that they can't handle it themselves, and it may be too late at that point. Everyone will laugh and defend their town/realm and watch their neighbors die, knowing that it makes the enemy weaker at no cost to themselves. Sure, they'll figure it out eventually, but will enough power be left to turn the tide once they do? You are leaving out the Gods. You have a invading form a invading Pantheon. The Gods unlike thier mortal worshippers are not stupid. For a huge threat like this they are going to tell thier followers to work with thier enemies and they are going like working together. Something similar happen in DL and the Knights of Solomnia and Knights of Takhiss were told by thier Gods to work together against the forces of Chaos. So it can happen and it has happen before. As for Evermeet, they learn a lesson thier lesson that isolationism isn't good for them. They will stand with Eversake, Myth Dannar and City of High Magic. As other said, a Empire base on unknown lands really work out too well. What you might want to try is a invasion form another world. Here is idea of mine: A long long time ago thier was a Campaing call Spelljammer. One of the adventures develope for SJ was call "under the dark fist" It is a adventure base on a invasion of known spelljamming space by the Vodoni, a Emipre spanning 12 crystal spheres. With Army (millions) of Low to High level Werewolves (bersekers, enforcers, mages commanders, etc). The Emperor of Vodoni had manage to trick the Gods of his original world into a crystal and was power form gods form crystal for his own ends. PS. The invasion had force a alliance of the Elves, Humans, Mind Flyers and Beholders and other fractions. So evil and good can compromise and work together when face with mutual destruction. Markus You are missing the point this isn't on ecountry invading another country this is one Pantheon invading another Pantheon via thier followers. The Pantheon being invaded isn't going to let the stupidity of their followers lose this war for them. Th Gods will order thier followers to fight together, whether they want to or not. Also how do you know if Zakahara doesn't have a 100,000 troops itself. Advantages goes to the defender who are defending home groumd. A Invading Army need at least 4-5x numerical advantage. And no one has answer about logistics of moving that much troops and supplies form one land to another. Also just look at how many troops the US need to occupied Iraq, Theres 200,000+ troops in iraq and they barely have half the country under control. You need more then 100000 troops, you need army of Millions and the logistics to back that up.
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 03:20 PM	Its not only do-able, its a wonder someone like Alexander hasn't arisen in the Realms and done it. None of the early RW empires were powerful enough to take out all of their enemies at the same time - quite the contrary. Often they would find allies amongst the 'barbarians' and use their own people against them, promising them riches and rulership under the empire. Greed is a powerful tool; you think Szass Tam, the Cult of the Dragon, or the Zhents would be beyond allying with these invaders just to save their own skins? Not only would such tactics work, but they would work VERY well in the Realms. All the enemy has to do is chip-away at the countries a few at a time until it's too late. I agree, all you need is a military genius like Alexander with the tactical acumen to overcome the larger nations. You don't necessarily need enough numbers to overwhelm Thay, Agralond, Sembia, and Haluraa, just better soldiers. How did Alexander devour armies many times larger? By tactics, genius, perseverence, and better equipped and trained soldiers. He was an prime example of the attacker not needing more troops than the defender. How do you translate that to the FR? Simple, first you need to come up with a leader like an Alexander, Hannibal, or Caesar. They need to be powerful, but don't have to be a lich, god-like being, etc. An Epic Level Fighter that is a tactical genius, charsimatic, and stocked with magic items will do. They don't even have to be evil. A fighter favored by Tempus would be perfect. Who better to have backing you than the God of War himself? Having one of the FR Gods backing her/him precludes direct divine intervention, which there wouldn't be any if that was the case. If Divine Intervention was attempted, who better than Tempus to turn the tides of battle in you favor. An enemy army can have all the high level wizards you want, but if the God of War wills it, then they are going to lose. It doesn't have to be a massive invasion. The force could be homegrown. Perhaps this conquerer rises to the top of his/her land. After all, Casear and Hannibal rose to the top by their victories. Perhaps the fighter starts as a general and she/he' initial sucesses propels them to a leadership position. They have crack troops and revolutionize warfare with new equipment or a strategy. Perhaps they develop a Spartan-like culture, and are just that much better than everyone at waging war. There are plenty of regions to develop a conquerer. One thign is for sure, the Realms are not united, and don't have an Azoun to do so. That is why in the end, one of the PC's should end the reign of the Conquerer. They should be that force. That is the key part. Having an NPC do it makes the victory meaningless. Maybe a Fighter NPC is a rival, student, son/daughter, or onetime friend of the Conquerer. Hannibal had Scipio as his ultimate foil. In fact, the PC's should be growing rivals of the conquerer as he gets more powerful and gains more victories. Its destiny they are going to meet for a final battle. Maybe a PC pleases Tempus, who likes a good fight, and in the end the God of War lets the best general win. Perfect would be if the leader of the PC party was a Tempus follower as well. In the aftermath, the Conquerer's generals divide his gains, and nations attempt to free themselves, giving the PC's plenty to do.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 03:27 PM	A DM can do whatever he wants. I had come-up with an "invasion from outerspace" scenario in another thread, and was blasted for it. I didn't want to make that mistake again. In my scenario, the invaders were a form of Uber-Orc, like the Scro, but mixed with other races, like Half-Orcs. The actual invading army was composed of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other races from other worlds that had been 'assimilated' into the Dark Army. I was actually picturing dozens of city-sized ships appearing all over Toril, VERY similar to the bad guys in The Chronicles of Riddick. Like in that movie, they embraced a dark 'god' and had a necromantic bent to their 'magic' (some sort of psionic spirit-tech in the movie). In fact, the invaders could even have psionics, which would be hard for many to counter, being used to conventional 'magic'. If we go back to my Athas invades Faerūn idea, that works out well. Have the Uber-baddy be an invading high-tech (magitech) Dragon-King, who was originally from a desert world similar to Athas. Thats been done too - the troops from Dune were superior to the Emperor's troops because they grew up on such a harsh and unforgiving world. Some of the armor from the Dark Sun game would scare the Bejeezus out of Faerūnians. And I never said Zakhara didn't have 100,000 troops. I can think of one single small city that has that many! However, the capital never has more then 5-10,000 troops for fear of a military coup (just like Rome). Dump 100,000 troops into Huzuz and hold a sword to the throat of the fat, pampered grand Caliph's throat, and watch how quickly the pudgy little bas_ard signs any agreement put before him. He would be allowed to continue to rule, but be under the thumb of the new 'High Emperor'. I think he would agree to that, rather then die with dignity. Either way, the invaders have the capital, and can move outward from there. If you know anything about Zakhara, the second most powerful city, Hiyal, would jump at the chance to ally with them and become the new rulers of all of Zakhara, even if they did have to cow-tow to the foreigners. Please don't speak to me about logistics, because even more primitive RW armies with far greater numbers have accomplished this, and all without magic. As long as you figure out how to get Mystra out of the equation, its not only do-able, its a piece of cake. I like that whole crystal with the essence of the gods trapped, BTW. It would work well for this. I was thinking something similar, but with an Overpower gone mad from another sphere. If someone was able to trap Realmspace's gods, I think Ao would be forced to step in, and you would need someone of the same calibur to handle HIM. Of course, you could always just create an ancient Elder Artifact, one that was created before all the powers by the Elder Gods, and one that could disrupt Ao's power. If the 'God-King' of the invading force had something like THAT, then getting that item away from him could be the basis for the entire campaign. :D
Drew1369r 07-11-07, 03:34 PM	Instead of shooting down the idea... how about you give your input on how to fix some of the idea's. Ioulam lets try helping and not being someone who provides nothing but complaints and stupid writing For the "weave" problem... Shar figured it out and created her own weave... try designing something up for the other god, created his own form which Mystra has no power over. Or a perm gate that is a channel for another worlds magic. (now waiting for the mystra would just cut it off) no she wouldn't if it was also being powered by the magic. Also to those stating that Mystra would cut off the weave, I think not if its just mortals doing the fighting, she has to remain neutral, if she was allowed to just cut off everyone and anyone she wants, she would be losing GODS to the shadow weave. Just idea's... waiting to be told "no you can't do that" by Ioulaum now.
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 03:34 PM	Advantages goes to the defender who are defending home groumd. A Invading Army need at least 4-5x numerical advantage. And no one has answer about logistics of moving that much troops and supplies form one land to another. Also just look at how many troops the US need to occupied Iraq, Theres 200,000+ troops in iraq and they barely have half the country under control. You need more then 100000 troops, you need army of Millions and the logistics to back that up. Well unless you are a military genius like Caesar, Alexander, or Hannibal, and can devour numbers way superior to your own by tactics and audacity. That is the type of person that would need to be the Villian/Antagonist. As far as control, not an issue if you aren't good aligned. Caesar was quite brutal and cruel to the Gauls. He basically turned them against each other, had many fight with him, decimated their populations, sold them to slavery. Caesar and Alexander did things that would make a Red Wizard of Thay squeemish. You would treat each conquered nation differently. Really depends on who is doing the conquering, their alignment, etc.
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 03:39 PM	Please don't speak to me about logistics, because even more primitive RW armies with far greater numbers have accomplished this, and all without magic. As long as you figure out how to get Mystra out of the equation, its not only do-able, its a piece of cake. Except in RW no one else had magic either. But in FR every city and hamlet has a Archmage. And the best way to defeat a foreign enemy is to destiry thier supplies. You have 1 million troops and thier supplies just got burn by followers of kossuth, their water posion by Talona and strange disease start cropping up. And the relief supplies were sunk on route by Spelljammers form Evermeet and Airships form Harlurra. A army that runs out of supplies isn't going remain a army much longer. Also how do you plan to land 100,000 troops at Zhakara without anyone knowing? Michael: Alexander and Ceaser both fought mostly land battles. They weren't moving troops and supplies across a entire ocean. The mongols try to invade Japan and thier fleet was wipeout by a huge storm. Also neither had to deal with Gods directing thier followers to united and fight together. RW example only goes so far in world with magic and gods.
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 03:49 PM	Also to those stating that Mystra would cut off the weave, I think not if its just mortals doing the fighting, she has to remain neutral, if she was allowed to just cut off everyone and anyone she wants, she would be losing GODS to the shadow weave. Last I checked, Mystra isn't the Goddess of War, Battle, and Conquest. She doesn't have any say about those areas. Those portfolios are held by other deities. Tempus is the God of War last I checked. All your invasion/conquering force needs is the blessings of Tempus. The Simbul can have all the special powers of Mystra she wants, but it means squat when she tries to lead her nation of woodsmen, archers, and Half-Elves against a real crack military and leader. If Tempus wants her nation to lose a battle, its going to happen. The gods didn't get involved with the Tuigan directly, and likely wouldn't in a similar kind of situation. Its up to their followers to find a way to deal with it, namely the PC's are the ones who have to stop the conquest.
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 03:55 PM	Last I checked, Mystra isn't the Goddess of War, Battle, and Conquest. She doesn't have any say about those areas. Those portfolios are held by other deities. Tempus is the God of War last I checked. All your invasion/conquering force needs is the blessings of Tempus. The Simbul can have all the special powers of Mystra she wants, but it means squat when she tries to lead her nation of woodsmen, archers, and Half-Elves against a real crack military and leader. If Tempus wants her nation to lose a battle, its going to happen. The gods didn't get involved with the Tuigan directly, and likely wouldn't in a similar kind of situation. Its up to their followers to find a way to deal with it, namely the PC's are the ones who have to stop the conquest. That would mean it would come down to a battle of Chosen's of Tempus vs Mystra. However Renvale's war is quite different. He has a invading army form a unknow land under a different pantheon with a eniterly different set of gods. So the Faerunian gods would get involve because unlike Tungian, they are being invaded by a different Pantheon.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 03:58 PM	I was un-aware of Zakhara's satelite positioning system; please elaborate and tell me when they got one? :confused: The only time anyone in the "good ol' days" knew invaders were coming, was a few minutes before they landed when they saw their sails! Read both the WoT and the Thieves world novels - in both cases the cityfolk woke-up and found an invading army in their harbor! If the invaders had advance scouts (and they should have), then the few lookouts that might have spotted ships coming in at night could have been bribed or killed. With enough magic, you could make your entire navy invisible, and we are talking about a bad-guy with that kind of power for this. Also, I specifically pointed out that you must find a way to neutralize the enemy casters, otherwise none of this would work in the long-run. Hence, I liked your 'god-crystal' idea. An atrtifact could work, as could a crazy Overgod, or even an invading god (although you would have to come-up with a feasable explanation of why Ao is allowing him entrance, in which case we fall back on the Elder Artifact scenario I described). Unless a god is violating his portfolio, Ao should not get involved. If the god of magic from a different pantheon (and there should be one somewhere on Toril) decided to make a play for Mystra's crown, I think Ao would have to just let it play-out. If he were an interloper, then that would be a whole 'nother story. I'm not going against canon here, I'm trying to figure out ways around it for the OP. And of course priests of Talona and Kossuth could destroy supplies, but why would they? They'd be all for the death and destruction the invaders are causing. Like I said earlier, a smart enemy would have 'scoped-out' the area, and already approached such groups, offering them more power in the aftermath. of course he plans on betraying them all, but by the time they realize that it would be too late. And as far as the gods warning their people - HA! The Dwarven pantheon would NEVER, EVER speak cordially to the Orcish one, and vice-versa. It is far more likely that when the war reaches the Heartlands, Alustrial, Bruenor, Obould, and everyone else would tell their gods to go F__K themselves and group together for common defense. Even the baddies I mentioned earlier (Thay, the Zhents, etc) would eventually realize the error of their ways when the invaders started going back on their promises. that sort of thing happened ALL THE TIME in RW history, and yesterday's enemy became today's ally. The gods would never go for it, but hey, what good were they when the s__t hit the fan, eh? ;)
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 04:00 PM	Michael: Alexander and Ceaser both fought mostly land battles. They weren't moving troops and supplies across a entire ocean. The mongols try to invade Japan and thier fleet was wipeout by a huge storm. Also neither had to deal with Gods directing thier followers to united and fight together. RW example only goes so far in world with magic and gods. No nation in Faerun thankfully will ever have to deal with the mind of a Casear or Alexander. Give either of them the magic items, fireballs, and flying steeds, and Faerun would be whipped in a heartbeat. Mystra isn't the important deity in this type of scenario. If anything its Tempus. If some outside God or Being ticked Tempus off, then game over. He can pretty much will the invading army to lose. Being this is D&D, which is fantasy, you can pretty much come up with any scenario. Heck, copy the Ori from Stargate SG I. a bunch of religious fanatics bent of galactic conquest.
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 04:10 PM	I was un-aware of Zakhara's satelite positioning system; please elaborate and tell me when they got one? :confused: The only time anyone in the "good ol' days" knew invaders were coming, was a few minutes before they landed when they saw their sails! Read both the WoT and the Thieves world novels - in both cases the cityfolk woke-up and found an invading army in their harbor! If the invaders had advance scouts (and they should have), then the few lookouts that might have spotted ships coming in at night could have been bribed or killed. And as far as the gods warning their people - HA! The Dwarven pantheon would NEVER, EVER speak cordially to the Orcish one, and vice-versa. It is far more likely that when the war reaches the Heartlands, Alustrial, Bruenor, Obould, and everyone else would tell their gods to go F__K themselves and group together for common defense. Even the baddies I mentioned earlier (Thay, the Zhents, etc) would eventually realize the error of their ways when the invaders started going back on their promises. that sort of thing happened ALL THE TIME in RW history, and yesterday's enemy became today's ally. The gods would never go for it, but hey, what good were they when the s__t hit the fan, eh? ;) Here is where we disagree. The gods of FR are busybody and they meddle plenty in thier followers lives. Also the invading (under Renvale original) was under a Different Pantheon, a Pantheon that is going try to replace the FR pantheon. That fact alone will get the gods to of FR to band together. ALlso i wasn't thinking of the Orc and Darwven gods I was thinking more of the Elven, Darwven and Human Pantheon banding together. Michael: You need the nature gods as well. Your troops aren't marching very far if the roads had turn to mud due rain and your fleet won't last long in Hurrican gale winds keep blowing.
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 04:23 PM	Michael: You need the nature gods as well. Your troops aren't marching very far if the roads had turn to mud due rain and your fleet won't last long in Hurrican gale winds keep blowing. If there is no mass destruction, they would care less. Faerun has seen war before, and Chauntea hasn't struck all armies down that I remember. If some army was wholesale burning the land, and slaughtering her clerics, then yes, I can see her wiping the army out with famine and weather. I think it would be easier to have a conquering army rise and originate in Faerun, worshipping Faerun gods. If they are from another land, they might follow a different pantehon, but one sanctioned by Ao. My point is people are obsessing on Mystra, the Chosen, and the Weave. In reality, only a couple will be involved who are rulers, and their divine power means squat to the outcome. They don't lead military powerhouses, so they will be a minor player. Mystra has nothing to do with war and conquest. That is Tempus' sphere. The PC's are the only heroes that will matter. That is who is going to have to stop the invasion. If its another Pantheon coming in, then all bets are off. See Old Birthright Setting for what happens to Gods who directly fight in person trying to intervene and help followers in Apocolyptic struggle on a Battlefield. Ao will be very unhappy, if he survives the fight with the enemy overdiety, at the vacancies he will have to fill. Hey, a DM can do what they want. Have Purple-People Eaters Invade Faerun fo all I care. I was just suggesting some ideas on a possible conquest empire type game.
Soltares 07-11-07, 04:26 PM	As far as how the Empire would counter Mystra, the simple fact is that their own diety controls their magic and therefore is out of Mystra's domain(kind of like the Yuzhong Vong(can't spell) in star wars being outside the influence of the Force). The solution here would be to tap those Star Wars novels you are mentioning for inspiration. Instead of Force-blocking Ysalamari (sp?), consider having the empire be using some form of magic-negating creature, such as tame Hakeashar or Nishruu, to block magical counter-attack. They might even have somehow managed to create mobile Dead Magic Zones that sweep before their army, 'cleansing' a battlefield of hostile magics before their soldiers move in. Worse, their priests and arcanists could serve Shar, and tap into the Shadow Weave, having trained / modified their magic-eating / negating beasties to absorb and shut down only Weave users, while ignoring the 'taste' of Shadow Weave magic, leaving their own spellcasters fully empowered! Captured Weave-using arcanists would be in chains, following in the wake of their army, being required to expend their daily spells 'feeding' the tamed magic-absorbing beasties that the empire uses as it's 'advance force.' Even long-range uses of magic, such as Control Weather, could be 'unravelled' by the magic-eaters, causing the mystically-gathered storms to disperse as their armies approached, leaving them with an annoying slog through muddy terrain, but otherwise unhindered by the desperate magical machinations of their soon-to-be subjects...
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 04:27 PM	Okay, maybe I have a good compromise, and one YOU of all people should enjoy - We use both; initially, the large island to the south was a made up of a half-dozen warlike nations (Eberron's five nations?). Then THEY were invaded from space, by Illithids! The advanced forces would have been mind-controlled humans, not wanting to tip their hands. They would have approached one of the warring nations and offered their 'help'. Yada yada yada, one thing leads to another, and before they know it, they are controlled by a space-faring Illithid empire! :eek: Dun Dun Duh!!! These creatures use their vast psionic abilities, and the resources of more then a dozen spheres, to launch an attack on Faerūn proper (although I still like the idea of using Zakhara as a beachhead). Ao wouldn't interfere, at least not at first, because they would bring no god with them into realmspace. These powerful psionic Masters are able to create fields of non-magic around anyone, disconecting them from the weave. The only people that would have any defense against this (possibly) would be those that use Shar's Shadoweave. However, the Illithids (under the guise of the human Torilian Empire) would consider them the biggest threat! The whole campaign would not be about the war (where individuals wouldn't matter much anyway), but rather about trying to get various factions to work together, and collect 'Intelligence' about the enemy. The climax of said campaign would be to find out the invading illithids were behind the whole thing, and they are lead by some uber Elder-Brain with god-like powers. Then the heroes must make contact with the one being who 'might' be able to help them - Ioulaum! If he can rest control of the Illithids away from the other Elder brain, he could stop the madness. If Ioulaum wins, and takes control... then what? Have the heroes accidentally replaced their foe with an even greater villain? What would Ioulaum do with that kind of power? Only time will tell.... :devil:
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 04:32 PM	The solution here would be to tap those Star Wars novels you are mentioning for inspiration. Instead of Force-blocking Ysalamari (sp?), consider having the empire be using some form of magic-negating creature, such as tame Hakeashar or Nishruu, to block magical counter-attack. They might even have somehow managed to create mobile Dead Magic Zones that sweep before their army, 'cleansing' a battlefield of hostile magics before their soldiers move in. The Tungain already have mobile Dead Magic Zones, didn't help them much. Worse, their priests and arcanists could serve Shar, and tap into the Shadow Weave, having trained / modified their magic-eating / negating beasties to absorb and shut down only Weave users, while ignoring the 'taste' of Shadow Weave magic, leaving their own spellcasters fully empowered! Captured Weave-using arcanists would be in chains, following in the wake of their army, being required to expend their daily spells 'feeding' the tamed magic-absorbing beasties that the empire uses as it's 'advance force.' Even long-range uses of magic, such as Control Weather, could be 'unravelled' by the magic-eaters, causing the mystically-gathered storms to disperse as their armies approached, leaving them with an annoying slog through muddy terrain, but otherwise unhindered by the desperate magical machinations of their soon-to-be subjects... Magic eating creature aren't new either. They have been defeated before by mages and magic spells. You just need the right spells and type of spells. Markus: You can tie that campaing into the revival of Auppenseer the Human God of Pisonics.
Renvale999 07-11-07, 04:38 PM	Here is where we disagree. The gods of FR are busybody and they meddle plenty in thier followers lives. Also the invading (under Renvale original) was under a Different Pantheon, a Pantheon that is going try to replace the FR pantheon. That fact alone will get the gods to of FR to band together. ALlso i wasn't thinking of the Orc and Darwven gods I was thinking more of the Elven, Darwven and Human Pantheon banding together. Michael: You need the nature gods as well. Your troops aren't marching very far if the roads had turn to mud due rain and your fleet won't last long in Hurrican gale winds keep blowing. To be honest, the gods rarely interefere in every day battles. That's what their followers are for. Now if the Empire comes over and starts demanding that the people worship the Divine being that is their god, the Realms Pantheon is not going to to send down avatars and say "No our followers won't" They are going to leave it up to their followers to start underground movements and worship in secret. If the land is conquered, the gods are not going to lose their place on Mount High and Mighty, the simple fact is that the world under imperial rule is far less hospitalable to their followers.
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 04:44 PM	To be honest, the gods rarely interefere in every day battles. That's what their followers are for. Now if the Empire comes over and starts demanding that the people worship the Divine being that is their god, the Realms Pantheon is not going to to send down avatars and say "No our followers won't" They are going to leave it up to their followers to start underground movements and worship in secret. If the land is conquered, the gods are not going to lose their place on Mount High and Mighty, the simple fact is that the world under imperial rule is far less hospitalable to their followers. Unless you are using houserules. The power of a God in FR is going to depend largely (not enitrely) on how many followers he/she has. So they are going to care if their followers are going to lose this war and are force to change worship. Even if not everyone is going convert a majority will and not mention the pantheon is going to start picking off the FR gods to take their profilio.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 05:06 PM	As an aside to that - part of the invaders plan could be to kill any followers of another god, unless they swear allegiance to THEIR god. Many Faerūunian gods will suddenly find themselves 'powering down', whilst the invader's deity gets more powerful.
Agudo Archmage 07-11-07, 06:03 PM	I am sure a few have already said this, but I'll put my two copper coins in. The so called ditties/solars, fight a civil war at the same time the Empire comes to challenge the Realms Lol perhaps in so many words good old Markustay63 and Ioulaum already did Basically it helps explain why the pantheon of gods fell to work together, in time to stop this Empire Maybe some smaller deities are helping this new Empire, to change things in their favor This is do to the fact that the deities in general, need “believers” to be powerful, and when they fall (believers) so do the gods Well anyway a bit ruff I know, but have fun with it :)
Lady Rolindin 07-11-07, 06:16 PM	This has been fought out on Fearun in campains I have played in before, well one still one goin campain. I still play (Character) out the remaining armies left by the Black Wizards arnies of the world of Tosourjurn. It seems anouther player, made this world where the Netheril had visted this world. When the Netheril empire fell, The netherlians still on Tosourjurn begain their conquest of the world. The other player who helped make the world took over the world and did take control of the whole world. The Black wizards came too Fearun by their floating enclaves, by way spell jamming. Making the Shadovar's encave look like a toy. each one of their encaves had atleast one million troops. They sent quite a few of them. The also have Mage hounds shock troops and magical beast that asorb magic. Yes the gods would unite their worshipers to try to stop as was done. Put it this way, I have already seen it done by the fr books and still playing every so often to rid Faerun of them. And too some the chosen of Mystra have been dealth with by the Balck Wizards , and some powers like Thay did join them. If you want details talk to Redhase, on how she did this. I just have played in such an grandous anventure. Also helped to design the basic world of the Black wizards, I let Redhase take over the world.
Drew1369r 07-11-07, 08:19 PM	Last I checked, Mystra isn't the Goddess of War, Battle, and Conquest. She doesn't have any say about those areas. Those portfolios are held by other deities. Tempus is the God of War last I checked. All your invasion/conquering force needs is the blessings of Tempus. The Simbul can have all the special powers of Mystra she wants, but it means squat when she tries to lead her nation of woodsmen, archers, and Half-Elves against a real crack military and leader. If Tempus wants her nation to lose a battle, its going to happen. The gods didn't get involved with the Tuigan directly, and likely wouldn't in a similar kind of situation. Its up to their followers to find a way to deal with it, namely the PC's are the ones who have to stop the conquest. REALLY OMG I didn't know that [/sarcasm] Please read everything... I was talking about those that would say that mystra would cut the weave off from the invading armies battle wizards
Drew1369r 07-11-07, 08:22 PM	That would mean it would come down to a battle of Chosen's of Tempus vs Mystra. However Renvale's war is quite different. He has a invading army form a unknow land under a different pantheon with a eniterly different set of gods. So the Faerunian gods would get involve because unlike Tungian, they are being invaded by a different Pantheon. But its not the pantheon invading, so where does that apply... its the followers... not the gods.
Ioulaum 07-11-07, 08:27 PM	But its not the pantheon invading, so where does that apply... its the followers... not the gods. Because they are under order form that pantheon to invade. This empire would have highly trained soldiers(all of them are fighters instead of warriors) and mages with power to rival that of Halruaa and even Thay. Their god would be an all-knowing, all-seeing divine being(according to their priest and priestess's) that is the one true god and all others are merely pretenders. It is by divine right that the empire conquer all before it.
Meldread 07-11-07, 10:34 PM	I can't believe there is still debate on this. :rolleyes: I solved every single problem that could be faced by an invading army in my precious post. Fact: You are going to have trouble having an army of the right size to invade Faerun. The place is huge. There is a lot of territory to hold. Having that much power and going unnoticed and unmentioned for so long is going to be difficult to explain. The easiest solution is to do as I have suggested. Have the invaders be from another crystal sphere. Have them invade and take over Sigil. This allows them access to anywhere on Toril that they wish. Problems of moving troops and logistics are solved. You can have millions of troops spill out into the very heart of nations - multiple nations - all at once if it was your desire. Anyway, I still think my suggestion solved all the problems that would be faced. :P
Drew1369r 07-11-07, 11:24 PM	See I don't like the Sigil part... I don't see someone who can deny gods access to her realm allowing mortals to take it over... but thats just me. HOWEVER that being said... they wouldn't need to invade Sigil to begin with... just get a writ of passage to cross thru and use the portals would just cost a few mil/bil in gold deal to the lady. But to get alot of people across the pond from Unknown to Faerun could have a big navy able to transport... and all the initial assault has to do is establish a beachhead, surprise assault into Dambrath actually and then to secure themselves take out the drow city underneath T'in-whateverthespellingis. Have everyone equiped with a bunch of sunrods :p Hell they might even get Halruaa to help with they diplomacy correctly until they invade them of course again that will be the second and only surprise cause then no one would help them anymore because they found out what they are about. For the numbers problem... do the same as the ORI from SG1 join us or die... more will be added to the ranks from that!
Ioulaum 07-12-07, 12:12 AM	See I don't like the Sigil part... I don't see someone who can deny gods access to her realm allowing mortals to take it over... but thats just me. He suggest that the God of the invading army defeats the Lady of Pain and take sover the Sigil :rolleye2: The same Lady of Pain that eats gods for breakfast. But to get alot of people across the pond from Unknown to Faerun could have a big navy able to transport... and all the initial assault has to do is establish a beachhead, surprise assault into Dambrath actually and then to secure themselves take out the drow city underneath T'in-whateverthespellingis. Have everyone equiped with a bunch of sunrods :p Hell they might even get Halruaa to help with they diplomacy correctly until they invade them of course again that will be the second and only surprise cause then no one would help them anymore because they found out what they are about. For the numbers problem... do the same as the ORI from SG1 join us or die... more will be added to the ranks from that! Halruaa's King is currently the most powerful Diviner known in FR. If he gets trick by something like that he would have been dead a long time ago of assisanations.
Drew1369r 07-12-07, 12:14 AM	Halruaa's King is currently the most powerful Diviner known in FR. If he gets trick by something like that he would have been dead a long time ago of assisanations. And yet we are the only ones giving idea's... and all you do is shoot them down... how about making yourself useful to this discussion.
Meldread 07-12-07, 12:26 AM	See I don't like the Sigil part... I don't see someone who can deny gods access to her realm allowing mortals to take it over... but thats just me. Well you see the thing of it is... they aren't really mortals. They are gods. One of them has the power to completely "devour" the essence of other deities. How can the Lady of Pain stand up to that, when simply by him entering into her domain she is consumed? The benefit of taking Sigil is the transportation issue. You can get to any planet, anywhere, at any time. Easy. Why put up with a deal with the Lady of Pain when you can simply take her realm for your own and reforge it into something more desirable? It also allows you to establish more than one beachhead on the planet. Have them claim Zakhara. Have them invade Kara-Tur. Have them invade Maztica. Have them invade Osse. Have them sweeping down from the North, up from the South and coming west from Kara-Tur. Following the suggestions given by Markus (which are very, very good) it would only take a matter of months before they have most of Faerun surrounded. What will they do then? Nothing. They will just be crushed. Toril may have thousands of Epic Level Wizards, but the army coming at them will have the same and more. And to make matters worse, they are like ants. Individually they could be crushed, but they are unified and that is their strength. Elminster and the Simbul are free to crush those ants at will, but eventually they'll be overwhelmed and those ants will crawl into their eyes, their ears, their mouth and devour them from the inside out until nothing is left. As they crush one, a hundred, a thousand, five thousand more appear to take their place. There is no resistance. No hope. Only submission or death. Even if all of Faerun united the day such an army appeared it would not save them. They would simply be overwhelmed. If this is what you are going for, then my suggestion handles it. It takes the gods out of the equation and Ao out of it along with them. It saves them from having to deal with the Weave as well. It gives them an endless supply of resources and the numbers necessary to seize control of the entire planet.
Meldread 07-12-07, 12:36 AM	He suggest that the God of the invading army defeats the Lady of Pain and take sover the Sigil The same Lady of Pain that eats gods for breakfast. I would point out that Vecna and the Lady of Pain did battle, and while Vecna lost it was rather destructive. Vecna who is a demigod. We're talking about a being who is DvR 20 walking into Sigil in all of his glory, along with -at least- seven DvR 10's at his side. This same DvR 20 has the ability to literally consume the divine essences of other deities, something which the Lady of Pain is vulnerable too. He just walks in consumes her. End of battle. She might try to attack him - and might even be successful for the first few seconds, but as I pointed out in my first post, attempting to do so would only speed up the process. She could try and Maze him but that would also fail and in turn drain her essence even faster. It isn't a direct attack against her. It is as if she is trying to battle a Black Hole. You can throw whatever you want at it but it will simply consume it, and as you draw closer it will consume you as well. However, even if you wanted to make the Lady of Pain completely invulnerable to everything and not even lay a finger on Sigil. The Empire would still have the ability to create their own massive plane by which they can use for the same purposes. (Albeit not as good as Sigil, but still functioning similarly.)
Ioulaum 07-12-07, 12:42 AM	Well you see the thing of it is... they aren't really mortals. They are gods. One of them has the power to completely "devour" the essence of other deities. How can the Lady of Pain stand up to that, when simply by him entering into her domain she is consumed? That only works if the Lady of Pain is a god and no one knows what the heck she is except she can beat any god in Sigil. She could a god, a overgod, elder power before the gods, physcial manifestion of Sigil itself or she could be 6 giant squirrels in a dress. Edit: the only reason for the whole Die Venca Die module was provide a game mechanic reason to change over form 2e to 3e. Pretty much everyone has disavow "dvd" as a piece of crap. There absolutely no reason for a enity like the Lady of Pain who kill Aoskar a greater God without a sweat, would have any kind of trouble killing Venca. A great god is 100x more powerful then a demigod like Venca. And yet we are the only ones giving idea's... and all you do is shoot them down... how about making yourself useful to this discussion. i think i am being useful in pointing outs flaws your ideas.
MarkusTay63 07-12-07, 12:48 AM	I hate to agree with the naysayers here, but Sigil is inviolable. Sigil is Sigil... it always was, and it will always be. Even if the beings can consume gods, the Lady of Pain is something way beyond that. She may just be an Avatar of the Universe itself (ie, THE GOD). If Asmodeus hasn't figure out how to dethrone her in the last 100 billion years, I doubt anyone else will. Besides, there are dozens of other locations you can use for exactly the same thing. There is the Observatorium from MotP, there is The Nexus, from Sword&Sorcery's Beyond Countless Doorways, there is the city of Tanelorn form the Eternal Champion novels, which exists on every plane, etc... I think that the City of Brass has tons of Planar connections as well, and would probably be a hell of a lot easier to conquer then Sigil. I think there is a bar as well, The World Serpent Inn, but I don't know enough about it to know if it would work as a planar staging area. In fact, now that I think about it, the entire Plane of Shadow would work! Now that I think about it, it's connection to Shar is even another good reason why the invaders would be able to counter 'Weave magic'. I still think invaders from an Athas-like world would be sick, and it would save the OP from having to make-up tons of background on the invaders. Pity the poor Faerūnians the first time they encounter man-eating halflings!!! :eek: Damn, talking evil make me so hot... :devil:
The WarOverlord 07-12-07, 12:54 AM	Hey there everyone, I've had an idea I have been pondering for a long time now and I wanted to get the opinions of all those on the FR boards about it. My idea is this: A large empire, probably from one of the "Unknown Lands" in the FRCS book, musters and large and nigh un-beatable army (imagine number of soldiers in the hundreds of thousands with re-inforcements twice that size) to invade the Faerun and subjecate all of it's people. Before I go any further I have something to ask of you. Please, pretty please, don't squash my idea with "Elminster and the Chosen would step in and save everyone." I have no doubt that if and when I run this campaign, Elminster and company would cause heavy casualties among the empire's armies, but for my storie's sake, they would realize the futility of fighting and go underground to start resistance movements. This empire would have highly trained soldiers(all of them are fighters instead of warriors) and mages with power to rival that of Halruaa and even Thay. Their god would be an all-knowing, all-seeing divine being(according to their priest and priestess's) that is the one true god and all others are merely pretenders. It is by divine right that the empire conquer all before it. I want the empire to resemble Rome, but with an evilish tint to it, that is, that their armor, from the highest general to the lowliest soldier is black and red and meant to intimidate and those not with the empire are against and it and put to quick and immediate death. The story line would evolve as the PC's fight in the war but are on the losing side as Faerun is steadily conquered, with them eventually leading the resistance movements. In the end though, the PC's realize that the empire's power starts and stops with the emperor(I'm thinking some sort of unique undead, although only his closest advisors know the truth of his current state. He would be a conduit for both the mages and priests power...as you can tell I haven't really fleshed out all the details). Eventually the PC's would undertake the dangerous mission of crossing over the sea and taking down the emperor. I'm asking for advice, ideas, even previous campaigns that you have run like this and what problems you ran into to. Any and all input is welcome. Thank you for reading, sorry it's so long. An unknown Champion of Rajjat that reached 28th level Dragon and have slain a few gods in multiple Realms as he conquered them then sucked the lifeout of the world and the world's sun...maybe even the reason why "the powers that be" Created the Grey to make it hard for others to escape Athas and reak havok in other Realms? The Army aren't actually undead either but necomatically enchanced by a combination of branwashing and alchemical and magical means...and that armor...is alive, self repairing and 100% immune to Magic so the likes of the the War Wizards letting loose Delayed Blast fireballs at thousands of charging Shock troops will still find thousands of troops still coming at them The Main Army uses "Lifejammers" (variants of Spell Jammers) to invade different worlds enmasse and they usually go undetected by landing in a remote region then move like the pleague across the world sucking the world clean of all it's resources as they move leaving mostly lifeless deserts in their wakes as they repower their ships, weapons, and equipment/magic. Likewise the Weapons the troops carry are "living" lance shape of the same colors as the armor things that fires a pluralization ray at a distance and when the lance hits it's victim the material starts growing on them from the impact point and growing until it covers them in the same "Armor" and grows into their brain and the fallen victims eventually join the ranks of the "pseudo zombie" Shock Troops that are now under the Control of the Dragon Emperor god of a thousand subjegated Realms...and Toril and it's Sun is next. And yes, no overgod like Ao would directly challange the Emporer cause if they fall he will become a Overgod. And Elmimister and the Like wouldn't want to have all their life and power sucked out of them by the Emperor nor would a godling like Mystra want the Emperor to take her portfolio as the god of the weave so........the Super freaks of the Realms aren't going to be the ones saving the realms............ Odd that a "Dragon" would invade a world with Dragon killing and controlling magic though (just saying)...of course Trying to stick a Dragon Slayer +2 sword or the like into the Emporer before he drains you of your soul/spirit and your body turns to ash is the real trick.
boards 07-12-07, 12:58 AM	Halruaa's King is currently the most powerful Diviner known in FR. If he gets trick by something like that he would have been dead a long time ago of assisanations. Halruaa's King may be the most powerful Diviner in FR, yet he wasnt able to divine Mulhorands invading army because one of the other mages used a Mulhorandi spell to prevent that. There are always counters to spells, you simply need to find it.
Ioulaum 07-12-07, 01:08 AM	Halruaa's King may be the most powerful Diviner in FR, yet he wasnt able to divine Mulhorands invading army because one of the other mages used a Mulhorandi spell to prevent that. There are always counters to spells, you simply need to find it. does he even need to be a diviner to figure this out. "we are mysterious empire form across the ocean and with ahuge army and tons of mages all we are interested in is invading your neightbor. we have absolutely no design invading you or any of allies and we certainly have no interest in making all you our slaves." You are right everyone would believed that and no one would suspect a thing.
MarkusTay63 07-12-07, 01:29 AM	It's called politics, and if you feed people enough bulls__t you can get away with invading anyone. Don't believe me? Weapons of mass destruction, anyone? ;) Governmental spin-doctors could teach demons a thing or to about 'dark deals'. :devil:
Ravenwild 07-12-07, 01:36 AM	I don't particularly like the whole invasion idea but since you want input on how to make it work and not why it wouldn't here are a couple ideas. I think you could explain why the Faerunian pantheon doesn't interfere directly with the invasion and why they don't give their followers forewarning or why Mystra doesn't cut them off from magic. Ao for whatever reason forbids it. Maybe he wants to see if this new empire's pantheon can run the realms better than the existing pantheon, maybe he just thinks a world war would be entertaining, it doesn't really matter. After all Ao is a god above gods, who knows what strange logic he might have for doing the things he does. Transporting an enormous army across an ocean I don't think has to be impossible. They could use a combination of gates, boats, or simply walking via the underdark. Like the Shadovar they could possibly move entire cities into other planes then shift them back into Faerun. Then they have ready made city-states to stage their battles from. I think a strategy like WW2 Germany could work extremely well. The empire maybe strikes up an alliance with Thay and invades Rasheman, a common enemy promising to give Thay victory over their much hated rival. Then once the empire has solidified its hold upon Rasheman they look towards Mulhorand and Unther ( a country that is already a mess). Thay already has an eye for expansion and they also start invading nearby areas to add to their own territory. Then while the empire is fighting the Old Empires they pull an operation Barbarossa and make a suprise attack against Thay. Thay along with the nations they went to war with are weakened from their own fights and don't have the resources to combat the empire. Unlike real world Russia, Thay doesn't have any allies. Aglorand and other tormented neighbors certainly aren't sending aid to Thay. Thay and other countries start to fall, freeing up soldiers for new fronts. As many have said this will require millions of troops but I don't think huge garrisons will be neccesary if the empire follows in the footsteps of Rome by treating conquered peoples somewhat decently. Conquered people and their families can become citizens of this new empire by joining the military, further strengthening the empire. They are allowed to keep many of their traditions and worship their chosen gods as long as they pay their taxes and swear fealty to the emperor. Now if the empire is determined to be brutal, enforce foreign customs and laws, and ban worship of the Faerunian dieties then the garrisons to hold the conquered territories would brobably have to be in the 10's of millions. I also want to mention that the empire's armies would not be the only ones having to worry about logistics. If the empire makes war on Thay troops in Waterdeep, for example would have a hard time sending aid even if they wanted to. I also think it would be extremely difficult to convice a soldier in Waterdeep to go thousands of miles to fight for people you hate because someone is telling you its necessary. I just don't think most people in Waterdeep would believe they are in any kind of danger. By the time they did it would be too late.
Dark Wizard 07-12-07, 01:47 AM	The OP or whoever the DM of that game has final say. If they can make a plausible explanation (in their opinion) for such and such to occur that works fine. However I find some of the suggestions offered in this thread a bit ... skewed. At lot of it seems to be "let's introduce this being/god/army/creature/empire that is a million times more kick ass than all the kick ass things found in the Realms combined, which on top of being kick ass is absolutely invulnerable to anything Faerunias can throw at them past, present, and future (we'll throw in extra-dimensional and even DM caveat immunity for free)." Then of course you can call it problem solved. Yet, one of the main examples given from the Star Wars EU novels, the Yuzhong Vong ordeal, really didn't feel like a thematic match for the SW setting. It's another one of those sudden and spectacular incursion by numerically/technological/magically superior in every way foes that put a good stomping on everything in their path until some luck band of people manage to stop them when the best of the best were flattened to pulp before them. It's taking one of the best plot frameworks of the genre but applying it in a haphazard way. I don't know how the Vong were later retconned into to the mythology, but their initial appearance made them seem overhyped and boring. Conversely, take stories like LotR (not saying it's definitive or anything, it's just an easily accessible example), the war of the ring was building up for countless centuries with millennia of history, conflict, and mythology behind it. There was an importance in the events as the characters went through them. Same with the original Star Wars trilogy. I feel the best option would be to find some existing basis for the empire or some ties to the setting (even tenuous ones). In the end it will probably turn out more rewarding than generic overpowered foe from some other place sudden popping in to make all of the world's defenders go poof with newfound previously unseen powers. That's some of the same criticism many place on the Chosen. Sudden overwhelming superior foe out of nowhere is rather deus-ex-machina. Even when the designers did it for FR they tried their best to fit it into the Realms (Shade). And enough with the Alexander/Caesar/Hannibal worship. Yes, they were military geniuses, yes they had many accomplishments, but many seem to gloss over the near misses from utter defeat, the hardships experienced to get to their place in history, and the rivals who gave them a run for their money. Also, all three of them died young or soon after achieving their fame; their conquests disintegrated after their deaths. Much of their legacy is due as much to their other activities (the short times they did get to legislate, govern, build), their biographers, or their heirs as to their direct actions. They don't really set prime examples for empire builders or maintainers, they were just people who shook up the status quo.
Old Sage 07-12-07, 02:09 AM	I hate to agree with the naysayers here, but Sigil is inviolable. Sigil is Sigil... it always was, and it will always be. Even if the beings can consume gods, the Lady of Pain is something way beyond that. She may just be an Avatar of the Universe itself (ie, THE GOD). If Asmodeus hasn't figure out how to dethrone her in the last 100 billion years, I doubt anyone else will.The Lady of Pain should be beyond definition -- as the creators of the PS setting have said in the past. Part of the point of the Lady is that she is an enigmatic, emblematic being, a mysterious force beyond expectation and thus representative of the grander secrets of the Planescape setting. Defining her limits her, and in doing so makes the planes a little more mundane.
MarkusTay63 07-12-07, 02:16 AM	Precisely. :) Of course, I also think gods should never have been stated...
Dark Wizard 07-12-07, 02:20 AM	Precisely. :) Of course, I also think gods should never have been stated... QFT
Renvale999 07-12-07, 09:58 AM	The OP or whoever the DM of that game has final say. If they can make a plausible explanation (in their opinion) for such and such to occur that works fine Thank you Dark Wizard. I've definitely seen alot of flaws but nothing that says it could never happen. I think to say that the Realms are un-invadeable is rather arrogant. Now, mind you, I understand it would take a massive force that could overwhelm the forces of the Realms, as well as master strategists, but for me that's part of the point of the story. The PC's outwitting those who outwitted everyone else. To Ioulam: Thanks for the negative criticsm. Your ideas have merit, but they are not the end all be all, nor are they not worth taking into consideration. To Drew: Thanks for helping good buddy! To Markus: Thanks for giving your input in a constructive manner To Meldread: Thanks for the really long post, although I don't understand alot of it, it gave me some good ideas.
XHereticX 07-14-07, 09:50 AM	Hmm, I was just reading some of the sword of truth books when an idea came to me, why not make the empire have some sort of strange resistance to weave magic (but not shadow weave;) ). Like if it almost dosen't exist for them, and they see magic as evil and wish to destroy it.
Renvale999 07-15-07, 11:52 AM	Hmm, I was just reading some of the sword of truth books when an idea came to me, why not make the empire have some sort of strange resistance to weave magic (but not shadow weave;) ). Like if it almost dosen't exist for them, and they see magic as evil and wish to destroy it. I've debated this, making them kind of like the Yuzhong Vong(Spelling?) in Star Wars that are resistant to the Force. I've debated them simply being magic hunters, they hate it in all forms, including Divine. The only magic that is acceptable is what comes straight from the Emperor himself and even then they do not trust those among their ranks to weild it and watch those that do with suspecion(spelling?). And I know alot of people would say "OMG! YOU CAN"T KILL MYSTRA, IT WOULD DESTROY TORIL!!!" Yeah, maybe in your world, but in mine she is simply a goddess of magic. The Weave is simply a tool that casters use. It you killed her, the Weave would go hay-wire but the world wouldn't suddenly end. I don't know, just my thoughts.
Leukrythus 07-16-07, 11:18 AM	Any invasion force would beforehand try to make some alliances with Faerunian groups that might be sympathetic with them. Perhaps the invaders formed an alliance with the Zhentarim, the Thayans, the Shadow Thieves, etc? An alliance with two powerful groups would keep the local wizards occupied with the internal threat.
theodisws 07-16-07, 02:06 PM	To get around a huge number of problems that have been presented, go with the pscionics are different and have your entire invading army made up of classes from that handbook.
Renvale999 07-16-07, 03:08 PM	To get around a huge number of problems that have been presented, go with the pscionics are different and have your entire invading army made up of classes from that handbook. Cool... But ssssccccaaaaarrrrryyyyyy... Owies, that's just mean
Micheal_Roele 07-16-07, 04:01 PM	To get around a huge number of problems that have been presented, go with the pscionics are different and have your entire invading army made up of classes from that handbook. Good call.
MarkusTay63 07-16-07, 05:33 PM	Like I said, make the homeland/world of the Invaders something exactly like Athas.... There, everyone had psionic powers!
Renvale999 07-17-07, 03:13 PM	That's actually a great idea, the psionic empire thing, my only question to you guys is how do you seperate those who worship the Emperor(his priesthood) and your normal everyday psions and psychic warriors? I've been pondering this and I really can't figure out how to justify this?? Any help guys and gals??
Meldread 07-17-07, 03:48 PM	Look to the Illithid for inspiration.
HVulpes 07-17-07, 06:22 PM	One idea that I had is due to a game that I have been playing, Elder Scrolls IV:Oblivion. One way for easier conquest is stable portals. Think about it, you can march endless armies threw them who can take root at the other end. You're instantly linked to the strongest levels of your kingdom likely with the largest barracks. And they can appear instantly causing surprise. Plus it can be from an outer/inner plane, another material plane or another continient. One aspect could be that a minor cult of the emperor could have been functioning in Faerun for centuries, acting as a secret advance guard. There has to be thousands of sects and cults it could hid in plan sight. If they keep under the radar, they could even not be suspected as the spies of this army. You might also want to use unique creatures as back up for your army. The armies in lord of the rings were so cool in a way because they were full of strange and dangerous creatures. Unique monsters or fiends to fight with the races involves or even unique version of those same PC races. Just some raw ideas and I wanted to say my piece. An invasion is a good idea, one that was used in Dungeon Magazine with the Astral Gith race and mentioned in Dragon. Their tip was to work slowly from one spot in Faerun and neutralize the major players that they could find in those spots. Another idea is to use the Chosen as sort of living batteries in strange machines to power weapons for the invasion. Like hooking Elminster up as a battery for a spellfire weapon might be unique. edit: Or a machine that uses Elminster to suck the magic out of their foes like Spellfire and then use it to empower their own magic users, like giving them all the Maximized and Empowered metamagical feats for their spells as long as they serve the emperor. I hope that I have at least entertained you with my ideas.
homicidal_squirrel 07-17-07, 08:51 PM	you know... you don't actually need to completely conquer the realms in order for this story to work. what if the PC's discover the connection between the god the emperor and the magic users midway through the invasion. also, not every realm has to be conquered by force... there is always diplomacy... the emperor can let a realm stay in power of whatever they help take over... as a token ruler of course... the true ruler would still be the emperor. and there is always the possibility of enticing weak rulers to join in the worship of this new god. as for all the great powers of the realms... they are busy trying to keep their lands free. they could be battling in other parts helping any number of kindoms that have yet to be conquered. just a few thoughts...
theodisws 07-18-07, 02:00 PM	That's actually a great idea, the psionic empire thing, my only question to you guys is how do you seperate those who worship the Emperor(his priesthood) and your normal everyday psions and psychic warriors? I've been pondering this and I really can't figure out how to justify this?? Any help guys and gals?? Perhaps the presence of the emperor is what awakens the pscionic powers, without him they have none. Or he has some giant psicrystal or something that he uses to grant or take from his followers pscionic powers.
homicidal_squirrel 07-19-07, 07:47 PM	correct me if i'm wrong... but isn't there something in the FRCS that states that if you use psionics in the realms that you are suppossed to use the "psionics are the same" rule for psionic/magic transperancy?
theodisws 07-19-07, 10:41 PM	thats why I said go with pscionics are different, it may not be the ruling in the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, but all the novels seem to indicate they are different....
Alleran 07-20-07, 08:47 AM	I've debated this, making them kind of like the Yuzhong Vong(Spelling?) in Star Wars that are resistant to the Force. To make a note on this, Luke Skywalker and some of the other Jedi figured out how to get around that resistance. The Vong can't be seen with the Force and are thus harder to predict in things like lightsaber combat, but nothing stops a Jedi from just TKing a boulder (or three) on top of their opponent. Luke even considered at one point that if he so chose, he could have TKed one of the Vong all around the ship cabin they were both in at the time (or choked him, or done whatever). Mind-to-mind contact and prediction of a Vong's actions through said Force are where the trouble spots arise. And as to the Vong's status in the mythology (warning for spoilers if people read it), they showed up, were "pwnzor" for a few books, and then the NR figured out how to beat them, and adjusted their tactics accordingly. From then on, it proceeded until the Vong all realised that the invasion being "sanctioned by their gods" was a lie, and they piled onto a living planet and went off to get back in touch with the Force. They showed up at the start of the next trilogy and were mentioned occasionally through it, but beyond that, there is pretty much no mention made of them at all (that I can think of). * To get back onto the FR-track, a point regarding Ao: I see him as being certainly a god of gods - 'overgod'. However, given that he is the overgod of Realmspace, and that it is mentioned that there are many other "assignments" like his Realms one, any invasion of Realmspace by a Planet-X-space (so to speak) would involve not only Ao, but the overgod of Planet-X-space as well, wouldn't it? You'd end up with an all-out godswar between overgods as well as just more normal gods and mortals. Of course, I also consider his power within Realmspace to be literally limitless, which may skew my opinions slightly. However, I haven't seen anything to indicate that this is an incorrect assumption. Regarding Mystra, the Weave and magic: If these invaders use the Weave in any way, the second there is a threat to it, Mystra will cut them off - she has to be fair in her distribution of the Weave, but if it is under threat, then she also has to act to protect it. So the Weave is out. Likewise, I can see Shar doing the same sort of thing if her control of the Shadow Weave was threatened. Psionics is pretty much the only recourse IMO, but that might just be me. A couple of other notes: - Elven High Magic. What's to stop the Elves from (with Corellon's and Mystra's approval) using monstrously powerful HM rituals like they did in the distant past to start wiping clean entire chunks of Toril? They've done it before (though yes, there were indeed complications), and faced with a threat like this, I can't see why they wouldn't just do it again. And if it didn't work, Corellon would just evacuate them to somewhere else in the planes. - This is practically a full-scale godswar. Big time threat to the Balance, and they will move in concert to protect that. Having the "God-Emperor" able to absorb the powers of gods that get too close (an idea that I have seen mentioned more than once) is IMO, if you'll forgive me for being blunt, stupid, partly for the reason that it reeks of DEM, which I personally detest in campaigns (to a point, I can accept it, especially in Epic level stuff, but I have my limits). Surely you can think of a better way to keep the gods out of it? Downgrading the size of the invasion is one sure-fire way to do this. - Food. Drink. Supplies in general. An army needs these things. I would like to note that taking historical figures into account, an army of 250,000 men had to keep moving through the lands surrounding it, and it essentially stripped the entire place and surrounding area bare as it moved. To conquer Faerun/Toril, you'd need a much, much more massive supply of troops, and simply put, I don't think that there is enough food around to supply them unless you use a DEM and say that "they have all their food produced with magic". IMO, that is an unfeasible way to do things, because at least for me, the level at which I am required to suspend my disbelief to accept something on that order is just far too high. - The entirety of Faerun. It's just too damn big to take and hold. Just having two or three nations fall before this all-conquering army could be considered a "Faerun-wide threat", after all, and preserves much of what you want to do in the campaign.
Wenin 07-20-07, 02:16 PM	Renvale999 trying looking at the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan, or the Serpent War Saga by Raymond E Feist, both have a similar storyline to this. Also look into the Sword of Truth series. Perhaps this invading army is completely and utterly immune to magic.... as if it just doesn't exist. Sure a forest fire started by a fireball would be bad, but a fireball in the middle of tight formations... not so bad. Then have the invading army utilize magic, through mages that are enslaved. All ideas from the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind Edit: Also keep in mind the sheer size of Faerun. It is by far much bigger than the Roman Empire ever was. Maintaining a hold on that much realestate should be impossible, unless at a minimum they were to do as Rome did and turn the populace. To do that, this empire needs to be offering something more, something better than their current government. Religion is going to be a VERY hard sell, since Faerun knows their gods actually exist. They walked among them within a human adult's lifetime.
Wenin 07-20-07, 02:38 PM	That's actually a great idea, the psionic empire thing, my only question to you guys is how do you seperate those who worship the Emperor(his priesthood) and your normal everyday psions and psychic warriors? I've been pondering this and I really can't figure out how to justify this?? Any help guys and gals?? Perhaps a psionic bond among the citizens of this empire is their strongest asset, and it could be the thing that entices conquered populations to turn to their side. In the show 4400, there was a town of people that all shared their memories with each other, it brought them closer together as if they were one big family. Your idea is doable since you are the DM, it is just going to take a lot of really good ideas to make it seem plausible. Make sure your players would enjoy such a campaign.