| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Thuerge02-20-07, 10:59 AM | Are all regional books going to be these super adventure books with a couple of pages of regional information now? I've heard that this change is not permanant, but can anyone confirm or deny this? Thanks |
| Kid SixXx02-20-07, 11:10 AM | Oh, dear God, not again. Most likely the regional splatbook format will not die. It's been too successful in the past and there is at least one hate thread per week about the mega-adventures. Rich Baker tends to haunt these forums quite a bit. I pray that he chimes in and settles this. |
| Diffan02-20-07, 01:51 PM | Are we talking about the books that are based for a so-and-so level party or the books described like Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Silvermarches, and The Shining South? If it's the latter, why are they considered a splatbook format? I honeslty have no idea what that means. :) |
| Kid SixXx02-20-07, 02:10 PM | AIf it's the latter, why are they considered a splatbook format? I honeslty have no idea what that means. :) Well, a splatbook is slang term for a book that is devoted to once facet of a game, or in this case a game setting (ie. The Complete Book of Elves would be a racial splatbook. The rather excellent Elven Netbook that some FR folks have put together would be another example of the racial splatbook.), so the regional splatbook is devoted to all things related to that particular part of the setting. Therefore, I would indeed be referring to books such as The Shining South, The Silver Marches, and Waterdeep: City of Splendors. :) I think that you guys have voiced your displeasure rather soundly ever since Mysteries of The Moonsea hit shelves, so mega-adventures posing as region books don't seem to be the way to go. Eberron gamers share your concern if only because our setting is not pushing 20 years of development, so we'd really like our setting to be fleshed out a bit more before the mega-adventures start rolling downhill. Every time we turn around, something cool ends up in an Eberron region book that makes most of my players regret rolling up the PC's they created (latest victim is the party monk who'd love to get a +1 Keen Monk's Spade now that Secrets of Sarlona is on the shelves), so I'd love for the regional resources to tap out a bit before we start getting our City of the Spider Queen's or Red Hand of Doom's. |
| The ShapeLess One02-20-07, 02:54 PM | I am willing to make a bet that in 08 the regional source books will come back. All you have to do is just not buy the super adventures. That is how we can all catch the attention of WotC. |
| Old Sparky02-20-07, 08:17 PM | I am willing to make a bet that in 08 the regional source books will come back. All you have to do is just not buy the super adventures. That is how we can all catch the attention of WotC. Of course, what it could do is convince those who make product decisions to decide that they're putting out too much FR content and cut back to one book a year. The fact that they make these kinds of decisions without actually talking to us --or answering to the criticisms about their product decisions-- doesn't do much to inspire confidence in what they might do next. |
| see02-20-07, 10:18 PM | why are they considered a splatbook format? I honeslty have no idea what that means. :) Hearken back to a tale of computer slang being taken up by another group of people . . . Ahem. The * symbol got the nickname "splat" back decades ago in computer circles; it got into the infamous "Jargon File" by February of 1982 at the very latest. In a wide variety of computing environments * was a "wildcard"; a search for a file named *.txt would match every file ending in .txt, from a1.txt to zzzzzzzzzz.txt. So, now, head into the early 1990s, when the Internet was still dominated by computer-science types, and which some of those people used the Internet to discuss roleplaying games. This was a time where TSR was first publishing series like "The Complete Fighter's Hanbook" and "The Complete Wizard's Handbook" and the like. White Wolf was publishing "Clanbook: Tremere" and "Clanbook: Ventrue" and "Chicago By Night" and "Tornoto By Night" and whatnot. In short, it was the birth of lines of similar books each concentrating on specific, similar aspects of a RPG. Well, these computer people realized you could use the * to refer to an entire line at once. If you said something about "The Complete * Handbook" or "* By Night", you were talking about all the books in the line. So the books in a series like these got called "* books". And * was pronounced by as "splat", so the books were called "splatbooks". Eventually, as non-computer-types showed up on the Internet, the term was taken up by people who didn't know or care how it had originated, and "splatbook" became the term for any series of books, regardless of title, that convered the same general topic in the same general way, with differing specifics. So, since the FR regional sourcebooks all detail regions of Faerun, have the same basic content structure, and each concentrate on a different region, they're "splatbooks". |
| ElberethSilverleaf02-20-07, 10:45 PM | We need a Maztica splatbook then. I want to know whats going on with those xenophobic elves in the north. |
| The ShapeLess One02-21-07, 01:23 AM | Of course, what it could do is convince those who make product decisions to decide that they're putting out too much FR content and cut back to one book a year. The fact that they make these kinds of decisions without actually talking to us --or answering to the criticisms about their product decisions-- doesn't do much to inspire confidence in what they might do next. Spend your money one them. I will not be spending mine on them. After that watch them make even more of them. |
| Faraer02-21-07, 01:10 PM | There's no suggestion that Wizards is switching from sourcebooks to adventures. Grand History of the Realms shows that. We know from Rich Baker that they're experimenting with formats, and that it's a blip that this year's schedule is dominated by the three big scenario books. Rich can't clarify things much more without disclosing unannounced products, which he can't do. We also know that the 2008 and probably the 2009 schedule are already set. |
| Thuerge02-21-07, 02:29 PM | There's no suggestion that Wizards is switching from sourcebooks to adventures. Grand History of the Realms shows that. We know from Rich Baker that they're experimenting with formats, and that it's a blip that this year's schedule is dominated by the three big scenario books. Rich can't clarify things much more without disclosing unannounced products, which he can't do. We also know that the 2008 and probably the 2009 schedule are already set. Ok if thats the case then great. :) I hope that Anuroch, Cormyr, Shadowdale and the Moonsea get put into real regional source books as they are some of the most interesting areas in the FR. It would be a real bummer if these adventure books are the only regional focus that those areas get. I tried to look in the archives but couldn't see any official comments on this or any threads at all. If somone could link Rich Baker's comments that would put my mind at ease. Cheers |
| Calmar02-21-07, 02:57 PM | What is so bad about super adventures? City of the Spider Queen offers lots of specific information you probably won't get in a standard book. Like drow food and how commoner houses might look like, for example. Yes that's useful, at least If you are rather new to the game. :P :) |
| Faraer02-21-07, 03:10 PM | Thuerge, both comments of Rich's are in his "Ask the Realms authors/designers" threads, but it would be a nontrivial web search for me to dig them up, sorry. I love adventures. They're fun to read, great for campaigns, a wonderful way to show settings in practice and close-up, somewhere between the scale of a sourcebook and a novel, clarify the traditional Realms play style, encourage new DMs, they're necessary for any RPG setting's long-term popularity, and an honoured part of the Realms' publishing history, from Dragon #96 (or #64) on. People who don't want any published because they don't like them are being selfish. But 3/4 of a year's product schedule being one extended adventure is not a good idea, and neither is waiting at least seven years to publish any sourcebooks on the Heartlands, the popular core of the setting. And long adventures are harder to slot into campaigns, especially when they have a timeline placement, fixed geography, and unreasonably fast 3E level advancement. |
| Panurg02-22-07, 11:36 AM | I agree, with Faraer very much! The high speed advancement, that is suggested (you don't have to follow these suggestions) kills of much of the flavor of the realms. Why not publish boxed sets as in 2ed? I loved UNdermountain, becaus it was just a plan and the important characters there. Not a stupid story including (as seen in Mystreies of the Moonsea) lots of overpowered priests of Bane (they suggested 17th level, I mean the chosen of bane is 19th level!) and so on ... |
| GothicDan02-22-07, 02:30 PM | What is so bad about super adventures? City of the Spider Queen offers lots of specific information you probably won't get in a standard book. Like drow food and how commoner houses might look like, for example. Yes that's useful, at least If you are rather new to the game. The splatbooks had this information and much, much more. I'm sorry you newer 3E types don't even get to see examples of good lore sourcebooks. :( |
| BrianCritchley02-22-07, 07:11 PM | The splatbooks had this information and much, much more. I'm sorry you newer 3E types don't even get to see examples of good lore sourcebooks. :( sure we do, 2e sourcebooks are quite avlaiable at used bookstores :) |
| Old Sparky02-22-07, 08:04 PM | People who don't want any published because they don't like them are being selfish. But 3/4 of a year's product schedule being one extended adventure is not a good idea, and neither is waiting at least seven years to publish any sourcebooks on the Heartlands, the popular core of the setting. And long adventures are harder to slot into campaigns, especially when they have a timeline placement, fixed geography, and unreasonably fast 3E level advancement. I think this is pretty much the real complaint that people have. The super adventure format isn't really that big a deal, its just that this being the only real FR content they're releasing this year... its a bold move, and for many of us, a bad one for the reasons Faraer mentions. Personally, I don't use adventures because I've got my own stories to tell. I like having background material as flavor to expand my stories or to use as adventure hooks. I have, over the course of 15+ years DMing in the realms, used fewer published adventures than I can count on my fingers --and that counts making major rewrites to fit my campaign. Adventures are good and useful... they help less experienced DMs by giving structure, and one big adventure (like City of the Spider Queen) is plenty for a year. Making a trilogy of them like this and edging out more wanted sourcebooks is quite limiting to the setting. So what happens with them if sales aren't good? Does Hasbro see reduced income and tell WotC no more mega-sized modules? Or do they just look at overall lack of interest in the FR setting? And what if people buy enough of them to show interest? Do we get more of the same just because people want to support the setting? I know Faraer also says their no evidence they are switching formats to move away from sourcebooks, but I don't see evidence that they aren't moving away from the format. Experimenting with a new format shouldn't take up most of the year's releases... and the 4th quarter project isn't a real sourcebook, either. Sorry, as much as I'm looking forward to it (for what it is), its not. I want reassurance that next year we'll get more products more useful for everyone, because this year's line-up is very disappointing. |
| Faraer02-22-07, 08:36 PM | Here we go:We've also been experimenting with new formats and new presentations for adventure material to find out what does the most good for the most DMs (and, of course, sells the most). These days we think we need to see a good balance of adventure material and rule material; due to the idiosyncracies of the schedule you're seeing a bunch of adventure material in the current catalog.There are several more signs for optimism, too, and certainly no one needs to panic.The high speed advancement, that is suggested (you don't have to follow these suggestions) kills of much of the flavor of the realms.The problem is, of course, PCs going up to 20th level in a year of Realms time when in the Realms it takes more like 20. It works for the '20 levels in 6 months of play' model that D&D tends to follow, not for in-depth long-term campaigns. And while you can adjust for it -- making early encounters more dangerous or later ones safer -- it's a drag to have to do so much work when you bought the module to save time. And it's a shame that Realms adventures don't support its own campaign model, though, to be fair, that has got exposure in Power of Faerûn and the Knights of Myth Drannor novels. |
| miscellany02-23-07, 02:09 AM | !! |
| miscellany02-23-07, 02:16 AM | !!! |
| miscellany02-23-07, 02:19 AM | The fact that they make these kinds of decisions without actually talking to us --or answering to the criticisms about their product decisions-- doesn't do much to inspire confidence in what they might do next. It pains me to see things like this online. Why do people write such obviously false statements? It's a well known, established fact that WotC talks to its customers, listens to them, actively solicits feedback and even responds to criticism. General dissatisfaction is one thing, but outright BS is another. For the sake of the newbies if nothing else can we puuuhhhhllllleeeeessss keep it real? ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I'm also curious where the 'high-speed' advancement rules are? Oh that's right, they don't exist. ;) I recall CotSQ took several months of play to get through and for our game I only ran the last third of the book. Our players advanced maybe 1-2 levels in that time. I see lots of criticism about supposedly fast advancement and how that ruins Realms flavor, but nobody actually talking from a "This is how it worked in my own Realms campaign" standpoint. In our Realms campaign we use regular 3.5 rules and numerous published adventures....yet we don't advance 20 levels in one game year and we also manage to enjoy playing in the Realms. I wonder how much regular, consistent, sit-down-and-play (with CotSQ, etc...) in the Realms experience the folks who are levying criticism actually have? And for those still on the fence, care to comment? The criticism just don't jive with our own in-depth, long-term, Third Edition Realms campaign play experience. Before I forget, the notion that in the Realms advancing to high level takes many, many years of game world time is a canard best forgotten. There never were rules for the Realms to that effect. Advancement in the D&D game is a function of the rules, not the setting. "There are no good 3E Realmslore sourcebooks" can be added to the canard list as well. That last canard is just plain dishonest. :) |
| Faraer02-23-07, 02:32 AM | Your campaign sounds great, and others have had similar experiences, including me: but I reduced experience awards, so haven't seen default 3E level gain first-hand. But the fact remains that the experience system was indeed designed for a party of four PCs playing weekly to get from 1st to 20th level in 6 months of play; that many campaigns have worked out like this; and that City of the Spider Queen is designed to advance a party 7 or 8 levels, a half or a third of a high-level adventuring career, which doesn't match the much more extensive careers of Realms characters of those levels, which are part of the lore of the setting (and Ed's DMing), not any rules. |
| miscellany02-23-07, 03:17 AM | Do you have a quote to that effect? I've not seen anything in any media in all my experience playing 3E since its release from any designer stating this is the standard function of the rules set. Your claim does not pan out mathematically, either.* According to the DMG, it takes (on average) 13.33 encounters to advance one level. That’s how the rules are set up. Now suppose you have a very experienced and organized DM who runs a once-weekly game and can manage to fit in 4 encounters per game (thanks in part to his experienced players who know the rules and their characters back to front). So...six months is half a year is (52/2 = 26.08873) 26 weeks. 4 encounters times 26 weeks is 104 encounters. 104 encounters divided by 13.33 to level up is ....only 7.8 levels, not 20. Is there any statistical information you can point to regarding the typical length of most 3E campaigns? Pending such evidence and in light of the math (based off of direct statements printed in the 3E DMG), your claims seem hardly credible. I am curious of whom are you referring to when you say 'more extensive careers'? NPCs? And how does Ed's home campaign or the lore of NPCs translate to how D&D campaigns and the careers of actual player characters "should be", beyond subjective, personal preference? I don’t know about you but I frankly don’t care to base any of my characters or my player’s character’s rate of advancement off of such arbitrary ideas, particularly in light of the fact that we’re having plenty of fun gaming in the Realms. (By the logic I think you are implying our actual rate of advancement in-game would be still too fast, which seems silly given the 7-8 year span of play we’ve had). "Slow" advancement is really a term that means "Advancement was slower with the 1E and 2E rules". Which by extension is a function of the rules, not any campaign setting. While 3E advancement may be "fast" compared to the older rate, that hardly means the older rules were better. If they were (which is to say if a majority of gamers liked those rules circa 1999-2000) then we would still have those rules in the rulebooks today. <miscellany says, “What EvAr! Just have fricking fun playing in the Realms already and stop criticizing Faerar! Just because you think he’s Hugh Laurie’s twin doesn’t make it true. Come to bed fool!> Can’t argue with that! Good night! :) *Dan, you are the physicist so you get to check my math OK? |
| Faraer02-23-07, 04:12 AM | I must be misremembering something about the numbers, maybe conflating two things. So forget about that unless I turn up those old posts.I am curious of whom are you referring to when you say 'more extensive careers'? NPCs?Yes, of course. It applies to pretty much all of them that we know of in enough detail -- there aren't adventuring bands of 20th-level 20-year-olds, as there aren't in most fantasy settings.And how does Ed's home campaign or the lore of NPCs translate to how D&D campaigns and the careers of actual player characters "should be", beyond subjective, personal preference?It's how they 'should be' in as far as you want to emulate the Realms, just like every other aspect of the setting, like how magic works or how long it takes to travel or build castles. Faster advancement isn't wrong, just incongruous.While 3E advancement may be "fast" compared to the older rate, that hardly means the older rules were better.I don't have an axe to grind against 3E and for earlier editions like you think I do. |
| Stigger02-23-07, 04:22 AM | Could be an expectation that's coming to the gaming table from the sorts who've learned D&D from things like the NWN series. You advance at a ridiculous pace in those series, and it may be creating the unreasonable expectation that it should work that way in P&P as well. Of course the really sick part of that is that the experience point gains are capped at 15% or normal in most of the OC modules... Sure the games are fun, and I wouldn't buy them if I didn't enjoy them, but they aren't D&D per se, something I suspect a lot of the people being introduced to D&D by them aren't understanding. |
| ragnarblackmane02-23-07, 02:56 PM | I love the 2ed sourcebooks. I'm 18 now, but me and my brother were given a box full of 2ned FR and D&D when I was 11 or so, and I still read them now and again. When I bought Mysteries of the Moonsea, I was angry as hell. The way the advertised the product on the main site, I thought I ordered a sourcebook of some kind. |
| Old Sparky02-23-07, 04:10 PM | It pains me to see things like this online. Why do people write such obviously false statements? It's a well known, established fact that WotC talks to its customers, listens to them, actively solicits feedback and even responds to criticism. General dissatisfaction is one thing, but outright BS is another. For the sake of the newbies if nothing else can we puuuhhhhllllleeeeessss keep it real? Maybe you're right. Could you please direct me to where they discussed with the fans the idea of giving us a year of adventure sourcebooks (and a timeline thing in the 4th quarter)? I'd like to see what other options were presented and how seriously they considered fan input on the matter. Because, seriously, I missed that discussion and I don't remember reading lots of posts about how we need to dedicate 3 books in a row --one each quarter-- to more adventure/module content and nothing else for the fans who don't want adventures during that same span. |
| MarkusTay6302-23-07, 04:17 PM | Could be an expectation that's coming to the gaming table from the sorts who've learned D&D from things like the NWN series. You advance at a ridiculous pace in those series, and it may be creating the unreasonable expectation that it should work that way in P&P as well.Exactly so! Years ago, I played in a game for three years and was finally level 18 when we wrapped up the campaign. We fought tooth-and-nail for every scrap of experience we got, and LOVED every minute of it. I played with my brother-in-law's group for awhile, and at the ned of each session/adventure we got a level. I though that was kind of easy-going, but he said it was the only way to keep his players interested. Then one session we finished up and he gave out a level again, but we had just entered the dungeon. I asked "shouldn't we get that when we actually FINISH the dungeon next wek"? <evil glares from other players> He said "NO, I'll give you another one next week when you're done". We got a level for hanging out in a tavern and walking through the wilderness? There was ONE encounter, with I think three giants, but definately nothing worth a level. I never went back, it didn't feel like D&D to me. All those 'kids' (18 yr olds) grew up on video games, and it is a shame that they don't even understand the concept of RPGing. When I taught my kids and their friends to play a couple years back, they were VERY upset when I told them sometimes it takes WEEKS of real time to earn a single level. We played for over a year, off and on, and the most powerful character was level 5. I have since moved away (divorce) so it is hard for me to get together with my players anymore, but my sons keep telling me their freinds are BEGGING to play again. I guess the "Wash, Rinse, Repeat" of computer gaming has lost its luster? :D I remember on the WotC 'sage advice' page someone was asking about trying to find a decent challenge for his level 75 character! The guy said the game was getting boring; I forget what advice the sage gave him, but all I kept thinking was "throw away the character and start again, this time the RIGHT way". How can ANYONE have fun playing a high-level character unless they have a HUGE ego and inflated sense of self-worth? There are old and gnarled wizards and warriors in FR who have spent their entire lives studying magic and fighting, and they are only 15-18, why do players think they can do it in a few weeks? It completely unbalances the setting when the players are more potent then the 'heavy-hitters'. Just my take. We get adventures because WotC isn't willing to print truly NEW material. The new stuff ALL goes to Eberron, We get dusted off 2e crap with lame PrCs and Feats, because the goal of the company is just to keep us, the fans, MOLLIFIED. Even if we get sourcebooks they'll just be re-hashes, we will NEVER see anything truly new again. They don't want to pull new people into this setting, they want new players playing Eberron. We are the ugly step-child, the lost... fans of Realms that are now, more then ever, TRULY Forgotten. :( |
| Dark Wizard02-23-07, 11:18 PM | We are the ugly step-child, the lost... fans of Realms that are now, more then ever, TRULY Forgotten. :( Man, that's sad. You should consider getting some happy pills at your local pharmacy. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 12:36 AM | I don't have an axe to grind against 3E and for earlier editions like you think I do. I would like to start with this first because I happen to agree....that is I don't think you have an axe to grind; you're actually pretty fair about this stuff inasmuch as you reference what you've read or heard through reasonably reliable sources. (That's all anyone can ask for, right?) I just think you have a generally dim view of the latest rules set and me? Well I'm just big on correcting. ;) Yes, of course. It applies to pretty much all of them that we know of in enough detail -- there aren't adventuring bands of 20th-level 20-year-olds, as there aren't in most fantasy settings. Why should the exploits of atypical NPC/novel heroes dictate what’s ‘right’ for a Realms DnD game? That’s a disconnect for me, I guess. I also don’t think there are that many campaigns that reach 20th level, either. On the other hand were I running Sharantyr (say 1st or 2nd level Ranger when we first see her in the novels) I’d fully expect to have gained 5-6 levels by the time the events in the Shadow of the Avatar Trilogy concluded. Events, mind, that did not take even half a decade. It's how they 'should be' in as far as you want to emulate the Realms, just like every other aspect of the setting, like how magic works or how long it takes to travel or build castles. Faster advancement isn't wrong, just incongruous. I think you and I could disagree about this until the end of time. In all our years of gaming in the Realms, Misc. and I have come to expect and appreciate the ownership of a campaign. Of really taking a setting and making it one's own you know? For us it's always been the melding of a setting's themes and elements with our own style of play and that of our friend's styles that make a setting (any setting, not just the Realms) come to life. That's why I disagree so strongly with the idea that fast advancement, or high-powered but relatively youthful characters somehow don't 'fit' in the setting. People play D&D (a game) in the Realms where the setting is the backdrop. Since the Realms has been a shared setting (where such means it’s been warped and re-shaped from what Ed Greenwood made even before it saw print in the Grey Box) for these many years I believe the Realms can only be best played when DMs and players (just like novel authors and game designers other than Ed Greenwood) mix in their own ideas in order to have fun. I think all of us have a sense of what’s ‘right’ for the Realms as we each individually understand it. I just disagree that the tempo and pacing of the 3E rules and its attendant adventures fall outside of that envelope. FWIW I’ve run and known players who’ve played youthful characters in 2E that advanced to high levels. Miss Miscellany is making popcorn. I’m going to have to pick the popcorn over this forum. Snack time! :) |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 12:53 AM | I have absolutely NO problem with 3e RULES; they are a HUGE improvement over 2e. In fact, I never did get the hang of THACO's, so I would often slip into 1e mode during sessions. The funny thing is, most of the new stuff is about 50% of my house rules, so if they want I could just save them some time on 4e and fax the rest of my stuff over. :P It is the treatment of the Realms since 3e came out that I find fault with. Its a wonderful setting, and has been placed on a 'back-burner' to make way for other settings. I don't imagine this stuff - FR players have been begging for a new FR-OA since 3e came out, but guess who got all the Oriental love? Sarlona went to Eberron, and we took a slap in the face. Do you think if they come up with a great concept for one of the other continents that we will see it? Don't think so, we just get the same old regions with some new tidbits added. Oh, and lots of RSE's, now thats showing love to a well established and loved setting. :rolleyes: Man, that's sad. You should consider getting some happy pills at your local pharmacy.Happy pills don't work for me, the last bottle I bought killed itself. :( |
| Dark Wizard02-24-07, 01:06 AM | Happy pills don't work for me, the last bottle I bought killed itself. :( Were they the fiendish Type CII variety? Yeah, the bit of Sarlona being basically what Kara-Tur/OA should have been really is hard to take standing. I guess that's why I'm sitting and scheming.... You will rue that day Coastal Wizards! |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 01:29 AM | They could have at least had the decency to make it core, with sections on adapting it to both campaigns. We got totally ignored; the best we can hope for is a Dragon article showings us how to adapt the stuff, I hear its really awesome and I'd hate to miss out. :( |
| GothicDan02-24-07, 09:45 AM | I agree with about half of 3E's core rules (not any of the add-ons, for the most part). Moreso than that it's the ideologies, mindsets, and game design methodologies that I dislike. Then again, I didn't like a lot of TSR's decisions with 2E, either. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 01:39 PM | Miscellany has a question: Any of you guys actually own and read cover to cover the Sarlona book? If not, I didn't think so. If yes, then another question: Were Psionics a big theme of Kara-Tur? That's right, it wasn't. ::::::::::: Back to me, Anyway just as with Sparky I wonder with you Markus where you're getting your information? FR has hardly been on the back burner since 3E was released. 3E FR was published before Eberron, has more 3E books in print than Eberron and received all the designer's attention beyond what it took to release 3E itself up until the first and second round of layoffs at WotC (around which time the setting search was announced). That attention involved a great deal of thought on places like Kara-Tur, Zhakara, Maztica, etc... The consensus was there was not a big enough market for Kara-Tur. Design time and money focused on that just serves to split the fan base and even then such products won't sell well, because they didn't back in the day. If there were a true (read: beyond a slim message-board cross section) majority of fans who wanted FR Kara-Tur, then we'd see it in print. The lack of anything published speaks for itself. :( |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 05:10 PM | Thats why Kara-Tur was SO boring, it was basically Asian history 2.0. If you apply the Sarlona stuff, or at least some adaptions of it, then that area becomes exciting. True, it would change canon, but when the canon stuff is smelly and rotten then maybe its time for some change. And besides, I just want it for all the new martial arts rules I've heard about. I'm a big fan of the Monk class. :D |
| Dark Wizard02-24-07, 10:40 PM | Miscellany has a question: Any of you guys actually own and read cover to cover the Sarlona book? If not, I didn't think so. If yes, then another question: Were Psionics a big theme of Kara-Tur? That's right, it wasn't. That's exactly the point. Sarlona is a step in the right direction to making Kara-Tur more mainstream. A slightly reflavored Psionics is perfect for a Chi/Qi/Ki style magic system. Also, the Martial Adept/Initiator system from Tome of Battle is ideal for various forms of fantasy swordsmanship. It shouldn't be Asia with some people and places renamed (or not even that in some cases). That attention involved a great deal of thought on places like Kara-Tur, Zhakara, Maztica, etc... The consensus was there was not a big enough market for Kara-Tur. Design time and money focused on that just serves to split the fan base and even then such products won't sell well, because they didn't back in the day. There is no fan base to split if Kara-Tur is fully integrated with Faerun, if it becomes a component of what we typically call the Forgotten Realms. In the 6-7 years FR 3e has come out, some things have changed. Movies such as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon came out in late 2000 (likely after the marketing meetings to decide the support of FR and stasis of Kara-Tur). That movie helped set the way for a number of pseudo-fantasy period films from Asia to show in the US, Quentin Tarantino helped them the rest of the way. Elements from Asia continue to fuse with Western media, from the whole J-Horror crazy to what are essentially Asian martial arts and period movies made with Western actors (Kill Bill, The Last Samurai). Not to mention the massive amounts of anime, manga, and video games imported from Japan. As the Tome of Battle said in it's intro, many Eastern media concepts have been readily accepted into Western entertainment. So much so that even American cartoons have started to make their own offerings using Asian designs and concepts (Samurai Jack, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Xiao Lin Showdown, and two shows with Asian protagonists from Cartoon Network and Disney, I forget which has who). The third Pirates of the Caribbean movie will have a cameo (or perhaps even a supporting role) for Chow Yun-Fat. I'm not sure what is up with that, but perhaps Hollywood sees some untapped potential in setting part of the movie in China. Then again, the tremendous amounts of anime, manga and video games from Japan. It's not a phase, it's here to stay (to the chagrin of some). Pokemon, which helped start the craze, is about ten years old now and still going (I find that notion weird as well). I feel WotC can tap into this cross-cultural movement. With Kara-Tur it's not like they have to suddenly create an Asian inspired area of the Forgotten Realms. TSR did that in the 80s, half the work is done. If there were a true (read: beyond a slim message-board cross section) majority of fans who wanted FR Kara-Tur, then we'd see it in print. Most people advocating a Kara-Tur revival know the market is slim at the moment. That is why many of us also advocate changes to the setting to help make the framework of the setting more appealing. As I've said before, the tone of Kara-Tur is probably more historically accurate than many fantasy period films/novels/games from Asia. The lack of anything published speaks for itself. Already addressed, though some of the more clever products create their own markets. Eberron in some ways is one of those. Also, if you make a good enough product, you can discover markets you previously never thought would take to a product. Like people who might use a good Kara-Tur setting revival for martial arts or elemental magic rules but use it for Faerun, Eberron, or their own setting. |
| miscellany02-24-07, 11:24 PM | That's exactly the point. Sarlona is a step in the right direction to making Kara-Tur more mainstream. A slightly reflavored Psionics is perfect for a Chi/Qi/Ki style magic system. Also, the Martial Adept/Initiator system from Tome of Battle is ideal for various forms of fantasy swordsmanship. It shouldn't be Asia with some people and places renamed (or not even that in some cases). DW, I love what you have to say and I really mean that. Very concise and to the point. But considering the diehards (blowhards, if you ask me) that frequent these forums, any change in Kara Tur in the (otherwise excellent, if you ask me) direction you think it could go rules-wise and possibly lore-wise would simply tick these people off more. I can see it now: <speaking in voice of atypical FR diehard> "Bah! They didn't remake Kara-Tur! They just raped it by putting in all the new crap rules that every regular FR book is filled with anyway! It’s really just a copy of the Sarlona book with a new cover. WotC never listens to what we have to say and now they are going out of their way to treat us all like crap! I’m so totally offended by this I’m going to make sure I get a word in about it in every thread on this forum even if I have to ruin those threads to do it!” That’s what happens on every thread here anyway. Setting my own pessimism aside, I think there is a small chance WotC might give us a bit more, maybe through Dragon Magazine. If sales of such issues are high, they might add an inquiry about Kara Tur in their next online survey or in the pull-out product surveys in their books. There is no fan base to split if Kara-Tur is fully integrated with Faerun, if it becomes a component of what we typically call the Forgotten Realms. Such integration might work, if WotC can make a realistic product push that explains through novels as well as sourcebooks how that integration occurs. OTOH the draw of Kara Tur is that it’s a medieval asian fantasy setting. I think it’d be hard even for an experienced outfit like WotC to integrate FR with KT and not loose what makes KT unique (and not seem like Sarlona redux, even remotely). Most people advocating a Kara-Tur revival know the market is slim at the moment. That is why many of us also advocate changes to the setting to help make the framework of the setting more appealing. As I've said before, the tone of Kara-Tur is probably more historically accurate than many fantasy period films/novels/games from Asia. I’d probably by it if it came out. Good luck! :) |
| Thuerge02-26-07, 03:28 PM | Ok who hijacked my thread? :mad: Anyways I looked for comments on regional books (ie...moonsea, the Dalelands, Dragon Coast, the Sword Coast, etc..etc..) on the threads from game designers. I have seen none. So my original question seems unanswered. :( The Maztica and Kara-tur issue is really a seperate discussion. Nothing against those settings, I am specificly asking about more information on the regional source books for the developed setting based on the FR setting. Thanks :) |
| Stigger02-26-07, 09:26 PM | Don't think there is a concrete answer to be had, to be perfectly honest. Not on the forseeable horizon, but who knows beyond that I think is about as good an answer as you can get at this point. |
| Dark Wizard02-26-07, 10:03 PM | My apologies for running into the tangent, Thuerge. I will try to take any of my upcoming sub-setting discussions to a more appropriate thread. |
| Stigger03-04-07, 07:39 PM | It was occurring to me today that there is a lot of lore that was once specific to the Realms that's been 'transferred' and adapted into core canon... Spells, a considerable amount of what showed up in Volo's Guide to all Things Magical, the concept of specialized clerics that eventually evolved into the domain system if I'm guessing correctly, etcetera and so forth... could be they're assessing what outstanding lore is out there and are using GHotR to do an inventory so to speak, and going from there as to what lore they should retouch and what new lore to add for sourcebooks... just a thought. |
| MarkusTay6303-04-07, 09:12 PM | The Maztica and Kara-tur issue is really a seperate discussion. Nothing against those settings, I am specificly asking about more information on the regional source books for the developed setting based on the FR setting.Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, AND Hordelands are ALL officially part of the FR setting, and therefore discussion about those areas in a thread concerning regional sourcebooks SHOULD be relevant. However, I will concede that it is YOUR thread, so my apologies. I think they are still looking for some sort of balance before they commit to too many more books of this nature. I think Stigger is correct, in that the Grand History of the Realms will be a BIG telling factor. If you want to see ANY MORE purely regional books, not those region/module hybrids, then I suggest EVERYONE buy at least one copy of that tome. If Wizards see a poor turn-out of buyers on the product, we will most likely NEVER see a decent regional book again. :( That being said, I'm currently working on a new map for Kara-Tur, one that will line-up with the map WotC offers here for free (unlike past editions, that didn't even line up with it's own sections properly). Hopefully, seeing the ENTIRE continent together (yes, including Zakhara) will generate brand new interest in those areas and give the powers that be some incentive to reconsider those areas for sourcebooks in the future. Just doing what I can to save the Realms from module Hell. ;) - Mark |
| Krash03-05-07, 04:48 AM | I think it will be in everyone's interest to buy the upcoming GHotR. That is, if they don't want to miss all the lore that's going to be unveiled.:) -- George Krashos |
| Krash03-05-07, 04:50 AM | Ok who hijacked my thread? :mad: Anyways I looked for comments on regional books (ie...moonsea, the Dalelands, Dragon Coast, the Sword Coast, etc..etc..) on the threads from game designers. I have seen none. So my original question seems unanswered. :( The Maztica and Kara-tur issue is really a seperate discussion. Nothing against those settings, I am specificly asking about more information on the regional source books for the developed setting based on the FR setting. Thanks :) Rich Baker has already confirmed that the FR line is not about to go down the "adventures only" road. -- George Krashos |
| MarkusTay6303-05-07, 12:48 PM | I think it will be in everyone's interest to buy the upcoming GHotR. That is, if they don't want to miss all the lore that's going to be unveiled.:) Are we talking stuff that wasn't in the original? :dancin: I'm hoping so! :D BTW, is the Dragon/Drow mage in Underdark named after YOU? I was always curious about that...... |
| Krash03-05-07, 09:43 PM | Are we talking stuff that wasn't in the original? :dancin: I'm hoping so! :D BTW, is the Dragon/Drow mage in Underdark named after YOU? I was always curious about that...... Yep, I'm officially part of the Morueme clan of blue dragons thanks to Eric Boyd. Stuff not in the original ...? Say, wouldn't that be a good idea!:) -- George Krashos |
| Old Sage03-05-07, 10:52 PM | As I've always said:- A lawyer that lives in the Underdark. Hehe... Too easy! ;) |
| LucaCherstich03-19-07, 08:23 AM | I really hope they start again to produce REAL regional or general sourcebooks. I have access to many old 2nd edition books but I still think that their 3rd edition counterparts, even if much smaller, sometimes bring order in a Chaotic mess of information. Last offical FR book I bought was Mysteries of the Moonsea and I've been VERY DISAPPOINTED. What the hell I have to do with boring "generic" stories written by people who do not know ANYTHINg about my campaign needs?? The real fun is in building adventures and the regional sourcebooks give us the "bricks" to build them... Give me bakc the real regional books! If their "REGIONAL" stuff will be all like "Mysteries of the Moonsea" I will stop buying for ever. |
| Old Sparky03-20-07, 03:25 AM | Anyway just as with Sparky I wonder with you Markus where you're getting your information? Sparky gets all his information from very reliable sources... ...small children, bathroom walls, and pure wild speculation. I defy you get more credible rumors!! :smirk: |
| miscellany03-21-07, 03:12 AM | I was thinking Magic 8 Ball. :D Mine tells me everything. It's saying "Go to Bed!" ...or is that Miss Miscellany? |
| Francius03-21-07, 04:17 PM | I believe the main problem with the Forgotten Realms in 3.5 edition is the lack of sourcebooks concerning and detailing Abeir-Toril's rest of continents. The good move made in Eberron's product line is just what it was missed with the current FR one: Eberron got just one main sourcebook about its main continent in ''Sharn;the city of towers''.All the rest of information about Khorvaire was explicitly included in the campaign setting and nothing more was added to. The other current books about the world are not exactly depicting more geographical expansion but generic ones concerning the gods,the magic and the dragons of the setting. The next real campaign sourcebooks Eberron receives are the ''Secrets of'' series focusing on its other two continents, Xendrik and Sarlonna.So up to now Wotc has covered three quarters of the world's expansion. In neat contrast to the above policy,what the 3.5 Forgotten Realms product line offered us is plain and simple Faerun exclusive stuff - campaign sourcebooks, history lorebooks, city and regional info books - all about Faerun and nothing more. Although I agree that there are so many elements,details, places, factions , flavor, info, personalities & characters ,plains & forests ,mountains and woods in the continent of Faerun alone that other worlds are starving for and perhaps will never see for their entire extension, ultimately the whole planet of Abeir-Toril (which is significantly larger than the Eberron planet) and the Forgotten Realms in themselves are far more from just Faerun alone. In fact the rest of Abeir-Toril's continents exceed Faerun in size and some even double or triple it in dimension. What needs to be done is what was done during the 2nd edition days, just in a developped and renewed format reflecting the new era in Rpgs that has come; but the right path is already there to be taken as an example. Wotc needs to give us sourcebooks about Kara-Tur, the Hordelands, Maztica, Zacchara, Al-Qadim and perhaps even about that huge continent on the southeastern part of the planet.That would be the correct way of expanding the world.They do not need to pubblish many books about them though:just an 160 paged one for each of the aforementioned regions. Then they need to sit back and watch how they fare in sales.Then perhaps go on and add some more books of even greater detail about those areas if needed. At the same time they can continue normally delivering more Faerun books, since Faerun by itself is such a huge place and draws the FRealms' principal interest by buyers. That's the way they did it with Eberron and now that world has information about almost its entire planet. That's the way to do it in the Realms again, following the past TSR's steps that led the setting in the right way and in the right spot of the vast majority of role players' hearts. I 'd hands down buy every single book pubblished about those other continents of Faerun without a second thought (just as I did for all the FR material already out), and from what I 've seen from the many petitions and polls requesting them already (and for quite some time now), I am pretty sure that they too will sell like hot cakes. And why shouldn't it be that way? The Forgotten Realms do still possess much more fans than Eberron that would push the sales to the stars, so why not giving those fans what they want? It worked in the past, Eberron received it ,so why not repeat what has been done to the FRealms product pubblishing again? Success is a given fact. |
| Khaelieth03-21-07, 05:56 PM | I'd like a jolly, big, fat book on Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zakhara etc. If they made a version of FRCS (dubbed the big fat one by my players) with had info on all of them, I think it'd be great. As for regions, I'm not entirely sure if I want anymore. We've got the free downloads, and I get this guilty feeling everytime I've got change the demographics. |
| GothicDan03-22-07, 07:19 AM | Unless they completely and utterly revamped the other continents, I'd personally never buy a sourcebook concerning them. In fact, I'd buy Secrets of Sarlona over Kara-Tur. |
| Francius03-22-07, 07:46 AM | Unless they completely and utterly revamped the other continents, I'd personally never buy a sourcebook concerning them. In fact, I'd buy Secrets of Sarlona over Kara-Tur. :eek: Did you ever got a chance to read about Kara-Tur during the Realms' 2nd edition era? Since I possess all the books and expansions about it I can highly recommend that oriental setting as interesting, exciting, action packed, vastly detailed, awesomely designed and richly historied one. I don't think that Sarlonna brings that much to the gaming table, and it's thus an understatement that if a 3.5 edition of Kara-Tur is going to be realeased (revisioned and updated) it will simply crash it out of its way to the top of Oriental - style adventure's elite. |
| Eladrinstar03-22-07, 12:26 PM | I think that The Grand History of the Forgotten Realms will have good sales. FR fans deprived of the beautiful thing called FR lore will snatch this tome up faster than you can say "No more super adventures disguised as sourcebooks!" |
| Bluenose03-22-07, 12:49 PM | The good move made in Eberron's product line is just what it was missed with the current FR one: Eberron got just one main sourcebook about its main continent in ''Sharn;the city of towers''.All the rest of information about Khorvaire was explicitly included in the campaign setting and nothing more was added to. That's not actually correct, Five Nations covers many of the core areas in Khorvaire in more detail than the ECS. The other current books about the world are not exactly depicting more geographical expansion but generic ones concerning the gods,the magic and the dragons of the setting. Not dragons but dragonmarks, and the difference is significant since the DM houses are major econmic players in Khorvaire. The next real campaign sourcebooks Eberron receives are the ''Secrets of'' series focusing on its other two continents, Xendrik and Sarlonna.So up to now Wotc has covered three quarters of the world's expansion. Probably somewhat less, since they've still to look at Argonessen and Aerenal. Wotc needs to give us sourcebooks about Kara-Tur, the Hordelands, Maztica, Zacchara, Al-Qadim and perhaps even about that huge continent on the southeastern part of the planet.That would be the correct way of expanding the world.They do not need to pubblish many books about them though:just an 160 paged one for each of the aforementioned regions. They didn't sell well for TSR, except for the Oriental Adventures one - and that was marginal. At the same time they can continue normally delivering more Faerun books, since Faerun by itself is such a huge place and draws the FRealms' principal interest by buyers. I suspect any such book would appear instead ofrather than in addition to other FR sourcebooks. Given the way people are complaining about this years schedule I don't think it would be popular - though there are complaints every year about the things that aren't being published as well as about the "superficial" treatment that people think their favourite areas of interest get. I 'd hands down buy every single book pubblished about those other continents of Faerun without a second thought (just as I did for all the FR material already out), and from what I 've seen from the many petitions and polls requesting them already (and for quite some time now), I am pretty sure that they too will sell like hot cakes. I'll say it again, they didn't do well back in the TSR days, they aren't likely to do well now. If anything comes out it's more likely to be either on the web site. Maybe Dragon magazine might publish similar to their recent Hordelands article, but that's one of the simpler areas. The Forgotten Realms do still possess much more fans than Eberron that would push the sales to the stars, so why not giving those fans what they want? It worked in the past, Eberron received it ,so why not repeat what has been done to the FRealms product pubblishing again? Success is a given fact. No, It isn't. Publishing Kara-Tur and other sourcebooks would be a gamble, in the same way that this years schedule is a gamble. Kara-Tur may happen one day, I don't expect to see any of the other areas unless it's a big success. |
| Francius03-22-07, 02:26 PM | That's not actually correct, Five Nations covers many of the core areas in Khorvaire in more detail than the ECS. Whatever. I do not possess the Five nations book but anyhow the continent of Khorvaire is already detailed on a good scale inside the Eberron CS. What you write is just an addition to my phrase. Not dragons but dragonmarks, and the difference is significant since the DM houses are major econmic players in Khorvaire. Eberron will also soon receive a sourcebook detailing its dragons. Probably somewhat less, since they've still to look at Argonessen and Aerenal. Aerenal is just a small island and Argonessen would be the fourth and final continent of the small Eberron planet so almost 3/4 of the setting are already explored. They didn't sell well for TSR, except for the Oriental Adventures one - and that was marginal. You're hands down wrong sir. Kara-Tur, the Hordelands, Maztica, Zacchara, Al-Qadim did sell very good and that's why they went on and pubblished quite a few adventures, campaign expansions and other material about them other than just their initial campaign setting. I suspect any such book would appear instead ofrather than in addition to other FR sourcebooks. Given the way people are complaining about this years schedule I don't think it would be popular - though there are complaints every year about the things that aren't being published as well as about the "superficial" treatment that people think their favourite areas of interest get. You think incorrectly. Faerun material is what the FR players are mostly concerned with and interested at so Wotc should just continue normally delivering more Faerun books, since Faerun by itself is such a huge place and draws the FRealms' principal interest by buyers. Besides, the complaints this year are much less numerous than other years since much better material will be delivered about the FR compared to the last few years. I'll say it again, they didn't do well back in the TSR days, they aren't likely to do well now. If anything comes out it's more likely to be either on the web site. Maybe Dragon magazine might publish similar to their recent Hordelands article, but that's one of the simpler areas. You would be incorrect. Again. Kara-Tur, the Hordelands, Maztica, Zacchara, Al-Qadim all did very good back in the day and since I don't have a sales diagram on me at the moment you'll just have to live with that. As a proof, I already told you that the aforementioned settings went on to spawn quite a few adventures, campaign expansions and other material about them other than their initial campaign setting. No, It isn't. Publishing Kara-Tur and other sourcebooks would be a gamble, in the same way that this years schedule is a gamble. Kara-Tur may happen one day, I don't expect to see any of the other areas unless it's a big success. Yes it is. Publishing Kara-Tur, the Hordelands, Maztica, Zacchara, Al-Qadim in the 3.5 edition will be a sure bet. Not a gamble at all. This method it's only a natural consequence since the above settings are all part of the Forgotten Realms' planet. I 'll say it again:That would be the correct way of expanding the world.They do not need to pubblish many books about them though:just an 160 paged one for each of the aforementioned regions. Just like they 're doing it for the Eberron world. |
| GothicDan03-23-07, 07:21 AM | Did you ever got a chance to read about Kara-Tur during the Realms' 2nd edition era? Since I possess all the books and expansions about it I can highly recommend that oriental setting as interesting, exciting, action packed, vastly detailed, awesomely designed and richly historied one. I am almost exclusively a 2E fanboy. I abhor those settings, some to more or less a degree than the others. And I'm not the only one who considers himself a diehard Realms grognard that feels that way, by far. Even a number of the people working on the Kara-Tur Netbook update felt that the majority of the original lore was terrible. |
| Stigger03-23-07, 07:23 AM | Hmmm... thought it was just an asian history book that had some names changed to protect the innocent. |
| GothicDan03-23-07, 07:27 AM | It WAS! Okay, leaving now. |
| Dark Wizard03-23-07, 10:56 AM | Hmmm... thought it was just an asian history book that had some names changed to protect the innocent. Others they didn't even bother changing. Bits of Kara-Tur are also miserable simulacra of real historical figures. Yamun Khahan didn't get as far as Genghis in terms of lasting conquest. Maybe Hubadai will do better. I'll give them one thing, they provide a perfect opportunity for a LG warrior-leader guy to yell "Khahaaannn!!!" Edit: Why is every thread turning into a sub-setting discussion? |
| entropysoda03-24-07, 11:33 AM | Why not include BOTH the adventure, and regional info? I would have preferred half the Cormyr book as adventure, and half as regional info. Heck, double the size of the book, and include both. I would gladly pay more for such a product! |
| GothicDan03-24-07, 11:14 PM | Then it would have been better to just make it two books. I'd be pretty upset if I had to buy a book to only use half of the information. I'd rather not buy it at all, and buy the other one. |
| miscellany03-25-07, 12:25 PM | It depends on the function of the book and the pages budgeted. Take Cormyr, The Tearing of the Weave for example. This book devotes 4.5 pages in its appendix to a description for DMs of Southeastern Cormyr and the unique character of the Cormite Citizens that populate it. It also includes information on Wheloon (including its Appearance, History and its Leaders) and includes a half page color map with 18 keyed points of interest (with each described on pages 149 and 151); The Vast Swamp (including three points of interest: The Lost Refuge, Orvaskyte Keep and Elven Ruins --not all of which are part of the adventure but let DMs expand play if they want); and Other Sites of Interest (The Golden Ruins, Hermit's Wood, Tomb of Chonis and the Unknown Shrine --again for additional play). The appendix includes a quarter-page sized map of Southeastern Cormyr for DMs so they can reference all the regional locations on the Vast Swamp, as well as the surrounding towns and cities (Jundirill, Hultail, Thunderstone, Highcastle, Hidden Vale, Kirinwood, Battlerise, Monksblade, Dreamer's Rock) ...all linked either by the Hullack Trail or the Way of the Manticore. As a DM and book buyer I think it would make this tome too unwieldy to have its pages filled with a deeper description of the outlying areas beyond Wheloon. Better to do as it did: Give over the majority of pages to the adventure and leave just enough to wet a DMs appetite for more play. :D |
| bitter thorn03-26-07, 02:19 AM | I still think that adventures, campaign arcs and regional sourcebooks do not need to be mutually exclusive products from a marketing standpoint. I don't have access to any national marketing data, but I firmly believe that they could sell a Dales sourcebook and a super adventure in the same year. |