Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zsych 01-30-06, 10:09 AM	I wonder what the fate of these beings would be after death. Monks don't worship gods. The Netherese Archmages wanted to be gods, and basically ignored all relation with them. Wonder if they'd all be lined up with the faithless, or if like clerics who can draw power from a popular principle, instead of a god, the power of their combined faith(even if it not be in gods) will create a place in the after-life for them. Wonder what an after-world based on the Netherese PoV as opposed to a god's will would be like.
Mirtek 01-30-06, 11:05 AM	Monks don't worship gods. Monks do worship gods like all others. Maybe even more so, most famos orders of monk are closely tied to the church of a specific deity. The Netherese Archmages wanted to be gods, and basically ignored all relation with them. That's a one-way-ticket into the wall of the faithless. Wonder if they'd all be lined up with the faithless, or if like clerics who can draw power from a popular principle, instead of a god, the power of their combined faith(even if it not be in gods) will create a place in the after-life for them. In the FR clerics can't draw power from a popular principle, instead of a god. While that is indeed a core D&D rule it is also changed by the campaign specific FR rules in the FRCS.
Zsych 01-30-06, 11:19 AM	Poor guys should've gone to some other world or plane where those horrendous rules for the dead didn't apply. As for monks... i personally don't know much about them. They don't draw power from gods though, and if i understood RA Salvatore's Danica correctly, she worshipped her teacher and the teachings of her order rather than any god. Guess even good people must end up among the faithless. Hmm... i don't think that i've ever heard of a god of monks. Wonder what he/she would be like. [...I can break planes with my ki enhanced punch]
Mirtek 01-30-06, 11:27 AM	Hmm... i don't think that i've ever heard of a god of monks. Wonder what he/she would be like. [...I can break planes with my ki enhanced punch] What's your definition for "god of monks"? A god who has monks among his followers? Most lawful gods would fit here A god who has a famous order of monks among his followers? Shar, Ilmater (these are the only gods I can recall of the top of my head) A god who is a monk himself? Ilmater (from the top of my head, there are certainly some more) PS: About what a deity who is a monk can do: All an epic level mortal monk can do and a little bit more: Divine Monk Prerequisites: Monk level 20th. Benefit: The deity’s unarmed strikes are treated as a magic slashing weapon with an enhancement bonus of +5 and the keen, lawful, and vorpal qualities. If the deity chooses, a particular attack can be bludgeoning instead of slashing, but the keen and vorpal qualities do not apply to that attack. Any unarmed attack the deity makes has a base damage of 2d12. The deity can use the Deflect Arrows feat to deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows. The deity can deflect any number of attacks in a single round. When the deity deflects any attack, the attack is reflected upon the attacker, using the deity’s base ranged attack bonus. When the deity deflects a spell, the spell’s level is added to the DC to deflect the attack. The deity only gains the second benefit of this ability if he or she has the Deflect Arrows feat. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Law. PPS: Yes, good characters can indeed go to the wall or the city of faithless. The afterlife in D&D in general and in the FR in particular is not a "good get rewared, bad get punished" concept like some of our RL religions have A vile massmurderer can end up as a faithful in Cyric's realm, while a selfless, caring benefactor to others can end up in the wall if he was always too busy helping others and never took the time to say some prayers to a patron deity. Even going to the Abyss is not really meant as an punishmet, although it effectively works as such, it's not the intend. You are just brought to a plane where all others are like yourself, so you can relishing that what you were obsessed with in your mortal life to it's full extend in your afterlife. Ofcourse, most recently deceased mortals only now start to realize that it's not nice at all to feel what they were doing during their life in it's most pure form in their afterlife in places like the Nine Hells, the Abyss, .... But even so there are certain truly vile individuals who enjoy their new place and even manage to climb to great might and power there. Orcus for example was once a CE mortal, who died, went to the Abyss, and climbed the ladder all the way to become the Demonprince of Undead
Zsych 01-30-06, 03:29 PM	Yes, i meant a god who is a monk. Seems i didn't read Ilmater's specs. Although avatars are cool, in that they make the god sorta kill-able, i think that the being able to tear planes with ki-blasts would've been cool too :) There should be something to differentiate magic using gods from psionic or ki using gods, outside of their avatars. - As for the good faithless. There's also the problem of being false, and not a very serious believer in your god. So you either become a boot-licker or suffer the consequences. Mortals really need to rebel against gods in general. Kelemvor could've made the rule that people who commit suicide will suffer endless torment, but he backed off to the point of it being almost the same as before. I recall.. there was some faction in Planescape that work to counter gods.. the whole, 'if they need our worship then they're not really gods' PoV :)
Shemeska the Marauder 01-30-06, 04:12 PM	I recall.. there was some faction in Planescape that work to counter gods.. the whole, 'if they need our worship then they're not really gods' PoV :) The Athar, aka The Lost, aka The Faithless. They believed that the so-called deities were simply powerful beings who were ultimately, at best, unworthy of mortal worship, and at worst they intentionally claimed true divinity in order to sustain themselves on mortal belief. Some members of the Athar, but not all, believed that there was a true divine presence in the multiverse that existed above and transcendant from the so-called deities, which they termed 'The Great Unknown'. Some members of the Athar were able to obtain divine spells via belief in the Great Unknown, but it's unknown if they did indeed tap into something beyond the gods of mortal belief, or if they were simply passively siphoning spells from known gods, or if they were gaining spells from raw faith alone, even if the object of their faith did not actually exist. It's an open question. The bulk of the Athar are living deep in the Outlands, near the base of the Infinite Spire at the sufferance of the Rilmani, and largely beyond the reach of deities. Previously inside Sigil they were perfectly safe from deific harm (though not clerics of those deities) because of the Lady of Pain's ban on the entry of deities from entering Sigil. Within the past 5 years in game however She expelled the Athar, and the other factions from openly holding power in Sigil, and the Athar left, for the most part. However, restrictions, idiotic or not, are in place on Toril regarding people who die on Toril and their status as worshippers of a deity who has a divine presence on that world. The Athar, and anyone not born and raised on Toril are screwed over by that. However, I suspect that a person who worships a deity not present on Toril, such as a deity of the Greek pantheon, Indian Pantheon, Celtic pantheon, etc would be claimed by a member of the Torilian pantheon and their petitioner handed over by deific agreement to the deity that person had worshipped in life. If the gods of Toril don't do that, they're shooting themselves in the foot if they ever want to have their clerics and followers go out on the planes or to other worlds on the prime material where they themselves don't hold any deific presence. The Athar though are still in a pickle, but I suspect that a deity might claim them from Kelemvor's wall for one reason or another, and ultimately loose them to whatever plane their alignment would hold fas their ultimate destination.
Sliced_Mustard 02-13-06, 06:43 PM	However, restrictions, idiotic or not, are in place on Toril regarding people who die on Toril and their status as worshippers of a deity who has a divine presence on that world. of course, so many people house rule so much else, if this rule is considered idiotic, DMs are free to ignore it and allow player characters to worship ideals or whatever. perhaps good monks would be claimed in the afterlife by celestial beings (in Book of Exalted Deeds) having struck a bargain with the death god similar to the one that allows devils to show up and tempt souls into infenral pacts. if not lawful good, then LE monks can can agree to serve the devils rather than be cast onto the wall; and LN monks should have some option, too. as long as the monk was faithful to the ideal worshipped, the faith should be respected (or capitalized on) by some power out there. basically, the wall should be reserved for those that deny the gods and lead otherwise blasphemous (non-spiritual) lifes. its just an idea, as good as any other, really.
jedorian 02-15-06, 04:33 PM	A "god" who can be banned from a place is indeed no deity in my eyes, just some powerful being that has limits. When I DM, the will of the PCs soul far outwieghs the powers of the "gods". The PCs have the capability to eventually take a "god's" power for their own. The "gods" can die. I think the only truly immortal being in FR is Ao. I don't believe he could ever be challenged or overthrown, unlike every other being in that cosmos. Should a PC die in my campaign that has no specific faith to follow, they do not auto-port directly to the Wall of the Faithless or the city. Depending on the strength of their will, they have an incredibly good chance of becoming a free spirit, able to wander where they please and perhaps eventually returning to life. Quite frankly, I find the idea of the faithless thing to be a load of horse@#&$. Just my opinion, lowly as it is, I'm sure.
Omya 02-15-06, 08:21 PM	My monk of the old order believed the wall of the faithless was just a transitional period for the soul before becoming one with a higher spiritual ideal. It certainly is one hell of a way to get off the "merry-go-round" and strip the idea of self for sure! ;) The ultimate nanti-nanti meditation!
Jiggawha 02-16-06, 04:19 AM	A "god" who can be banned from a place is indeed no deity in my eyes, just some powerful being that has limits. When I DM, the will of the PCs soul far outwieghs the powers of the "gods". The PCs have the capability to eventually take a "god's" power for their own. The "gods" can die. I think the only truly immortal being in FR is Ao. I don't believe he could ever be challenged or overthrown, unlike every other being in that cosmos. Should a PC die in my campaign that has no specific faith to follow, they do not auto-port directly to the Wall of the Faithless or the city. Depending on the strength of their will, they have an incredibly good chance of becoming a free spirit, able to wander where they please and perhaps eventually returning to life. Quite frankly, I find the idea of the faithless thing to be a load of horse@#&$. Just my opinion, lowly as it is, I'm sure. I agree. I think there's too much atention on ''gods'' and their interferances with lives of others
Andyr 02-19-06, 08:59 AM	The Athar though are still in a pickle, but I suspect that a deity might claim them from Kelemvor's wall for one reason or another, and ultimately loose them to whatever plane their alignment would hold fas their ultimate destination. I was just reading a thread elsewhere (Planescape board, perhaps) which considered the possibility that members of the Sons of Mercy might raid the Lower Planes to free toiling petitioners and give them another chance. Perhaps they'd do a similar thing to those trapped in the Wall.
Quenditar 02-25-06, 01:23 AM	I've toyed with the idea of a would-be god of the Faithless before - someone so upset with the situation that he tried to get himself elevated to godhood in order to claim all those without any other god. Of course, it only took a few hours (hey, I'm slow) to realize that such an plan is the one thing that could unite each and every deity in Toril against one mortal - all the gods benefit from extorting belief, and a serious threat to the system would be met with mass smiteage. So it makes a much better plot hook than an actual system (unless Ao gets really upset).
Gray Richardson 02-25-06, 01:31 PM	Why would a god serve people who don't believe in him? Even if he had an interest in their fates, he would quickly die himself from lack of worship. I honestly don't understand why people get so upset by the fate of the faithless in the FR setting. Sure it's a rather blah existence. But it's not torture or anything. It's completely neutral as afterlives go. Yet millions of souls are being tortured in the lower planes, they go to really horrible and excruciating afterlives and I find it funny that everyone is very accepting of that, not the least bit concerned, yet the idea of the Wall seems to really upset some folks. If I were a creator, I don't know that I would have created the wall, but as far as what to do with the unbelievers, it seems as fair a fate as any. If you set a rule and let people know the consequences and they choose the consequences, then how is that not fair? The people in the wall chose to be there, and even if you might not agree with their decision or the consequences of it, how can anyone argue that some sort of injustice has been done to them?
Quenditar 02-25-06, 02:15 PM	Why would a god serve people who don't believe in him? Even if he had an interest in their fates, he would quickly die himself from lack of worship. Yeah, that idea works much better as a plot hook than a fait accompli. I honestly don't understand why people get so upset by the fate of the faithless in the FR setting. Sure it's a rather blah existence. But it's not torture or anything. It's completely neutral as afterlives go. Yet millions of souls are being tortured in the lower planes, they go to really horrible and excruciating afterlives and I find it funny that everyone is very accepting of that, not the least bit concerned, yet the idea of the Wall seems to really upset some folks. I know I don't like the system because it bears an eerie similarity to a protection racket. Objectively, the Faithless don't have it as bad as followers of evil deities (unless they're subject to fiend raids as well as the False), but they are described as being "punished". Furthermore, they can't be revived by any but the most powerful means, which is a definite penalty for not being part of the system and paying "protection faith". If I were a creator, I don't know that I would have created the wall, but as far as what to do with the unbelievers, it seems as fair a fate as any. If you set a rule and let people know the consequences and they choose the consequences, then how is that not fair? The people in the wall chose to be there, and even if you might not agree with their decision or the consequences of it, how can anyone argue that some sort of injustice has been done to them? If I set the rule that you needed to pay me $10,000 every month or I'd wreck your computer, you didn't pay, and I wrecked your computer, well, you chose to have your computer wrecked, didn't you? Not all rules are just.
Gray Richardson 02-25-06, 03:26 PM	Well, in England they charge you an annual fee to own a television set (or a VCR or a PC that can watch/record programs). It's 126.50 pounds (about $220 American dollars) per year. If you own a television and don't pay the fee you are subject to criminal prosecution and a fine of 1000 pounds. And they may take your telly away... ;) You might argue that this is unfair compared to other contries where such would be free. But this is simply how they pay for their broadcasting infrastructure in the UK. It is a choice they have made as a nation, other nations do things differently, but my point is that no matter where you live there will probably be things you like and things you hate. In Realmspace gods are very real. They walk the planet from time to time, their clerics perform divine works/spells every day that provide tangible proof the gods exist. Everyone is encouraged to worship a god or gods. Everyone knows the rules. In fact people know that if they don't give offerings and appeasment to some gods that they might be punished for it. For instance, plenty of good sailors, fishermen and ocean travelers make an offering or prayer to Umberlee not to kill them when they set sail. And many who don't are killed in violent storms. No one seems to get upset at Umberlee for doing that. Picking a patron deity is as much about choosing the disposition of your immortal soul as it is about who you want to serve. While you are living you are given a vast menu of places where your soul can go when it dies. Arvandor, Brightwater, the House of Nature, the Nine Hells, the Barrens of Doom & Despair, and the Wall, these are all some of the many places on the menu that you can go when you die. But the menu is all that there is. It is what it is. That's just how they do it in the Realms. There are no other options. Maybe the choices are better in Greyhawk, or Krynn or Eberrron. If someone likes those choices better they need to find a portal or a spell to go there. I am not saying "Faerûn: Love it or Leave it." But if someone wants a better fate than the Wall, they know what they have to do. And as choices go its not really a bad one. The wall is not a punishment. Its a quiet place where you can go and reflect and think your own thoughts for all eternity. Some hermit types might actually prefer it. And I bet there are tons of petitioners in the Abyss, the Nine Hells, The Barrens and many other hellish afterlives who would dearly prefer to be in the Wall over the fate they are currently enduring. In the immortal words of Getty Lee, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice..."
Quenditar 02-25-06, 03:39 PM	Just goes to show that the line between the government and the Mafia can be very thin if viewed at the right angle. Bonus points for Rush references. :)
Shemeska the Marauder 02-25-06, 06:03 PM	Just goes to show that the line between the government and the Mafia can be very thin if viewed at the right angle. Or a thin line between 'public good' and fascism. ;)
Zsych 02-26-06, 03:15 PM	The problem is that casual devotion isn't acceptable either. And does everyone even know about the Wall? We know about the wall, but we're outside the game :) Plus, going by what happened in the Avatar series, a god can't rescue someone from the wall of the faithless, or false, unless the mortal has shown at least some devotion to that god. The Netherese are almost definitely still stuck there. And as for rescueing petitioners from the lower planes. The problem is that Toril is just one world in the middle of nowhere. Most likely, most planar beings wouldn't even know that something strange was going on there, to bother with a rescue(whereas the situation with the Hells effects the people of all planes) - Of course, my objection here is more of a roleplaying issue... I detest the concept of bowing to any god, and though while playing myself i prefer Wizards, i dislike Mystra :) The purpose of any wizard should be to grow to godhood, though it take a thousand years to do it(Netherese PoV) :) ... Seems the Shades have given up the Archmages should become gods PoV. Weak wretches!!! (:))
Sliced_Mustard 02-26-06, 05:11 PM	well, no one is forcing anyone's character to bow to the gods. you can happily live a good or evil life without being faithful, only there is an afterlife consequences for it.
jedorian 02-27-06, 04:07 AM	I was under the impression that the 'gods' had no actual need for worshippers. Taking into consideration the whole thing with Lolth, she certainly doesn't seem to feel any ill effects from losing mass amounts of faithful. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that the worship from followers is just fluff for the deities and their powers are derived from something else, like their own plane or innate powers. Did any of the ascended 'gods' have an immediate following, such as Velsharoon? I see the Wall as a collective punishment from the deities in this pantheon for mortals who consider the 'gods' to be useless. Basically the deities' way of effectively dealing with creatures who would dare to question their 'superiority'. Personally, I think the whole bit is silly, stupid, and ultimately ridiculous. Why? Why is there a wall? Do the souls make some kind of energy that the deities find useful? It almost seems so, the way the wall breaks the spirit down into nothing. I understand the idea behind the False, but I don't see the reasoning for the Faithless.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-27-06, 04:58 AM	I was under the impression that the 'gods' had no actual need for worshippers. Without faith and worshippers a deity is essentially starved, and will eventually wither away into nothing, ultimately ending up a petrified husk on the Astral.
Jiggawha 02-27-06, 11:26 AM	I was running an adventure, not like Gwydion's story, of an organization (I named them ''Spirits of freedom'' or something in elven) whos members were hired to infiltrate Fugue Plane to rescue souls, even pull them out of the Wall, but I was not certain how would the god of death react (how quickly). Basicaly similar to the tanar'ri. The organizations was led by a bit unusual (or insane) angels who believed that everyone deserved a second chance (or third etc). But my PC's died to early being too sure of themselves ....
Zsych 03-01-06, 02:30 AM	Lloth being a tanar'ri can probably live just fine without worshippers, though they probably make her much stronger. Gods like Shar and Selune, having been creators of Toril and such, are probably gods with their own power apart from those that their worshippers gave them. Other gods... some come into being purely by virture of human worship and have no existence apart from what they are granted by their worshippers. ... I'm not sure what effect Ao's new rules had on the likes of Shar and Selune. Shar couldn't possibly have enough worshippers to become a greater diety by their power. And how many worshippers does Mystra have apart from the relatively low number of mages that exist? I wouldn't be surprised if the total number of her worshippers was under 20k. .. So maybe they retain what power they naturally have, and only the rest is determined by their worshippers.
Dradjeel 03-01-06, 08:22 AM	I am not saying "Faerûn: Love it or Leave it." But if someone wants a better fate than the Wall, they know what they have to do. I certainly do, and have done: establish the Great Wheel as the one, the only, the ultimate cosmological architecture of which all others are but pale echoes or misunderstood shadows. Helps to create a kind of humbling effect on Primes when they discover their word is one of millions, instead of literally the center of the universe.