Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zsych 03-05-06, 07:29 AM	We don't really know about the Imaskari, except that they were masters of portals and that they put up a wall to bar a whole pantheon of gods from Toril(bloody impressive). Soon after they were casually defeated by the mere avatars of the gods they had barred along with what must've mostly been farmers and other similarly non-militarily oriented slaves.... <cough> <cough> You mean they hadn't bothered with any backups at all, just in case their stunt against a whole pantheon of gods didn't go too well? ... Well that's not really the point of my post. I'd say that if they reached the level of power that they could casually mess with gods, the portals must've come much earlier. Unlike the Netherese who were basically stuck to the enclaves, the Imaskari could have gone anywhere. And let's say if we developed portals, we'd spread out, at least mining communities across the usable worlds, and maybe much more. You could pick the choiciest of places to live with thousands of planets to choose from. You could even start colonizing uninhabited planets. Personally it seems to me that expansion should've come long before the stunt they pulled that led to their doom(and i still don't understand how a civilization like that was defeated, even if they were outnumbered. They must've had nay number of magical items to arm their forces with. Artifacts of the crush Divine Avatar into pulp kind shouldn't have been hard for them to make). Anyway, the point is, that if the Netherese survived, the Imaskari had much more reason to be able to survive, with all the options open to them. There may well be an Imaskari inter-planetary empire out there, not coming back to Toril until it feels it can deal with the gods on a much more even footing(or maybe they just don't want to come back to such a lame place instead of the amazing places they must've chosen to live) Still... it would be interesting if they came back(or some of them). The Shades have not quite lived up to their promise, but perhaps the Imaskari could. Of course, it's possible that post-Mystra's ban they can't use their full magic on Toril either, and are likely living on worlds where their magic isn't disrupted. The (gold?) elves came to Toril because the magic was similar to that of their own world, so perhaps there are plenty of worlds around with pre-sundering level magic available(which must've been even higher than what was around in Netheril and Imaskari times), provided you could find them.
Telagaunt 03-05-06, 10:49 AM	Imaskar is still there. Check Deep Imaskar in the Underdark sourcebook. The Imaskari fled the Surface world to the Underdark in hopes of creating a new home, where they've been for the last 3800 years :D Edit: Here's a web article with an excerpt about the Deep Imaskari race: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b They errected the Great Seal which closed off the cavern they decided to make their city. And that's how (fluff wise) they've made it so the Imaskari have been hidden for all these years. But the Great Seal is a ward of hundreds if not thousands of spells created over the centuries to protect Deep Imaskar. And only just recently they've 'lowered' it for certain Imaskari to go out into the outside world (with the location of the city wiped from their memory), most of which are agents sent to find out information about the outside world, then return hope.
Zsych 03-05-06, 03:41 PM	Interesting, but not really inspiring. A few adventurers out of Deep Imaskar, and without the Imaskar level magic. Seems, i'd forgotten why the Imaskari got the slaves... A plague decimated their population. (why does that seem to happen so often?) ... that doesn't change the fact that they could have expanded onto other worlds, their interest in magic should have demanded it, if nothing else. ... Dang, now i'm bored with the Imaskari. Why is it that all of the Lost empires seem more interesting than current empires? (probably because they have high level magic that would severely unbalance the game for the non-mage classes) Seriously, i'm in the mood for some unspeakable darkness, and all i get even in fantasy is day to day stuff :) Evil easily fought has no point, it should be evil smothering you, that you somehow get victory against(and only a temporary victory at that). ... Sadly, even the Blood War doesn't reek of unspeakable evil. (and the novels were just boring :)) ... Somebody suggest a movie or a novel or something or the other, that generates the oppressive feel of fear and being barely able to breathe!!! Hmm.... how to generate that in a game... Heck even Asmodeus isn't all that freightening. Sounds more like an intelligent and ill-intentioned statesman, than evil incarnate. Someone likely to swindle your soul from you than make you experience something truely horrible. Hmm.... i think i've forgotten what fear is supposed to feel like, can't think of any kind of monsters that would cause sustained fear. Baah!!!! - Back to the realms... the existing threats, and the whole history of evil never having any truely significant victories is boring. The novels also create the feeling of evil as being basically weak and inept, with the way low level characters end up thrashing or foiling the plans of major baddies. Even the Shades, for all their potential... Netherese, servants of Shar, free from Mystra's limits on the Weave... and what did they successfully manage to do? Nothing!! Reduced to the level of any of the existing evil organizations. [... feel my frustration here] (..... [sigh].. i'm obviously in a bad mood... i'll bow out for now)
dragonheart 03-05-06, 10:43 PM	most of which are agents sent to find out information about the outside world, then return hope. of course how they are supposed to get back to the city with their expereinces after all memory of it was wiped on leaving is not explained. :D as for the innui of no massive evils remember that the game is set up so the DM can create taht for his players at what ever level they want (well up to about the the first 10-15 epic levels anyway - after that you are basically forced to go planscaping to deal with foes on the levels you need to keep advancing.)
Telagaunt 03-05-06, 11:32 PM	Well, probably some latent trigger I suppose lol. @Zsych- Deep Imaskar are in epic levels. Sure not all of them. But the Great Seal is a mutlitude of epic spells, and the Deep Imaskari are still very powerful. The excerpt I gave you only mentioned tidbits, the whole section on Deep Imaskar goes into depth about while they were in their new city, they attempted to expand to other planes (just as you wish they had ;) ) but failed, and why. Deep Imaskar is actually quite interesting IMO.
Lord Karsus 03-05-06, 11:56 PM	Even the Shades, for all their potential... Netherese, servants of Shar, free from Mystra's limits on the Weave... and what did they successfully manage to do? Nothing!! -Everyone is subject to Mystra's Ban on 10+ Level spells. Even the Shadovar.
Zsych 03-06-06, 02:38 AM	Where it does look like they're subject to the ban(by virtue of 3E not having 10+ spells anywhere :)), it was also mentioned somewhere that the Shadow-weave is free of Mystra's limitations, or anything that relates to the Weave. It's a seperate creation entirely. If there are two cars, and one of them gets broken, nothing happens to the other one. The Shadow-weave would exist if Mystra decided to destroy the Weave. The only way there can be a 10+ level spell ban on the Shadow-weave, is if Shar put it there. (and like i said somewhere else, Shar being cowardly enough to do something like that would be lame... if a god can't expect to defend itself by it's own merits from mortals, then it obviously doesn't deserve to be a god) --- As for the Deep Imaskari... maybe they'll turn into the opposite of the Shadowvar, to further balance the situation. (i am disappointed with them choosing to worship gods though, like the Shadowvar... it takes the coolness out of a strong people, that they feel the need to worship some higher being, thus accepting that they will be forever inferior) ... Wonder what's happening with that Netherese enclave that Selune saved. -- As for the whole DM creating horrors. I think i've gone through too many horrors to remember what horror feels like. Need something more evil, something deeper than wanton destruction or conquest. Like i said, something with the oppressive feel of not being able to breathe(not sure that's possible anymore, but ideas are welcome, and novels that can create the feel are very welcome. Hmm... heard that the PC game FEAR, creates some of that atmosphere, maybe)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-06, 03:30 AM	... Sadly, even the Blood War doesn't reek of unspeakable evil. (and the novels were just boring :)) I wouldn't judge the Blood War as such based on that trio of very very very noncanonical novels. If you haven't done so already, read through 'Hellbound: The Blood War' (2e box set) and 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' (the best monster ecology written for DnD, and possibly the best sourcebook ever written for DnD).
Lord Karsus 03-06-06, 07:04 AM	Where it does look like they're subject to the ban(by virtue of 3E not having 10+ spells anywhere :)), it was also mentioned somewhere that the Shadow-weave is free of Mystra's limitations, or anything that relates to the Weave. It's a seperate creation entirely. If there are two cars, and one of them gets broken, nothing happens to the other one. The Shadow-weave would exist if Mystra decided to destroy the Weave. The only way there can be a 10+ level spell ban on the Shadow-weave, is if Shar put it there. ... Wonder what's happening with that Netherese enclave that Selune saved. -Opus, as it is called, is just floating there in the Gates of the Moon, Selūne's home plane. Other than that, who knows. I just hope they don't come back to Toril, to counter Thultanthar. That'd be justa little too cheesy for me. -Anyway, everyone, Shadovar or not, is subject to Mystra's ban on 10+ Level magic. Even if they use the Shadow Weave. If this weren't the case, don't you think that there would be more 10+ Level spells being used, by wizards who realize this and switch allegiances and Weaves? -Think of it like this. Raw magic, which creates 10+ Level spells, is a body of water. The Weave is a white filter, and the Shadow Weave is a black filter. They are both filtering the pure water into something useable by wizards. Mystra's Ban says that no one can touch the pure water- the raw magic, the source of 10+ Level spells. Being the goddess of magic, she can do this. With the ban on the pure water, users of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave don't have access to it.
Karsus the Mad 03-06-06, 09:16 AM	Mystra's ban affects her weave, and her weave alone. Shar's weave is completely unaffected by anything Mystra does or doesn't do, and isn't subject to her laws (sadly, this is stated fact in MoF). Mystra is goddess of magic via her weave, and has no power over Shar's weave or even any power over raw magic itself (otherwise Mystra would have power over shar's weave, would know of magic cast via the sw, etc, but she doesn't, so....). Mystra is goddess of magic as it pertains to her weave, just as Correllon is god of magic as it pertains to the elves, and technically (despite not having the portfolio) Shar is goddess of magic as it pertains to the shadow weave. As to why there aren't any 10th+ spells being cast (and there may very well be) is because of a very lame problem: they haven't published any (and actually, we don't know for sure, as in it hasn't been published one way or another, that the Shadovar don't have access to 10th+ magic). There simply isn't any shadow weave user of a high enough level to cast 10th+ magic, other than Telemont himself, and maybe a few of his sons. Other than that, there simply isn't any fluff, or in-game reason for there not being any. <shrugs> tis the problem of introducing a seperate weave that isn't limited by mystra's ban without first working out the difficulties such a creation brings to already established lore. Since I don't use the sw in any of my games other than for possible NPC's, it's not a problem.
Evergreen_Aldaron 03-06-06, 09:42 AM	I am sure that the issue will be dealt with in writing at some point. It is an interesting problem though. Magic of Faerun does indeed state that "...for the Shadow Weave is not subject to Mystra's laws or state of well being." As a DM, itis easy enough to limit the magic to ninth level, but in essence, Shadow Weave users could conceivably use 10th magic if they could get their hands on it, and were powerful enough to cast it. Hmmm......a very destructive possiblity. :thinks:
Telagaunt 03-06-06, 01:01 PM	Well, there's also the possibility that Shar placed a ban on the Shadow Weave also, like Mystra, to prevent copycat Karsus disasters... I've read some people think the Shadow Weave isn't powerful enough to handle over 9th level (obviously it can handle epic, but, in terms of old school magic), and that the Karsestone is some sort of... power battery if you will.. But idk.. There have been so many threads about this the last..5 years. it gets tiring :P Whatever the reason, I do not believe the Shadow Weave in and of itself can cast 10th level spells like back in the day. Largely because of the simple fact that Mystra's Ban also changed the way magic fundamentally worked, spell progression, etc... The old types of magic, ('translated' into Netherese Arcanist PrC) are completely different from back in the day. The PrC, the way magic worked for the Netherese Arcanists. So, what's banned is banned. And epic spells are the harder way to achieving the old spells. Proctiv's Move Mountain anyone? ;)
Zsych 03-06-06, 03:28 PM	Evidence really does seem to point more towards not being able to cast 10+ level spells with the Shadow-weave. ... else why would Telamont have bothered with Epic levels? On the other hand, that implies that Shar copied Mystra's ban... Lame.... Fact is, no one can easily replicate Karsus feat, he was a super-genius and still took 10+ years to develop the spell. Like i said, if Shar can't trust herself to defend against mortals, she doesn't deserve to be a goddess(and so she should think as well :)) 10+ level Shadow magic spells did exist in Netheril times, or Shade would not have been able to build his shadow-mythallar. As for her needing the Karse-stone... if it had been dangerous to her weave, she wouldn't have left it lying around. So she just picked it up to annoy Cyric. Personally, i think that the Shades needed the Karse-stone as a source of Heavy Magic, rather than just an augment to the Shadow-weave. Hmm... it's possible that Telamont has switched to being a wizard rather than an arcanist because you can learn more spells that way. It being a possibly easier form of magic use(i remember reading that classic wizards who memorized spells had existed in the Netherese times, but had not been very popular) ... of course, my saying it's possible means nothing. Most likely Netherese style casting is no longer possible at all, and expecting it from the Shadow-weave is foolish. Someone drop by Candlekeep and ask Ed and the others why the Shadow-weave is as lame as the Weave :) Of course, Ed considers the Shadow-weave to be a weak imitation(makes you wonder why Telamont would have chosen to use it at all, if it was originally more limited than the Weave) :) I'd have gone with it serving the same purpose on Toril for Shadow-magic that the Weave performs for regular magic :) (but Shadow-magic working on the planes is also possibly a more latter day thing, and wasn't pre-decided :))
Lord Karsus 03-07-06, 12:29 AM	Evidence really does seem to point more towards not being able to cast 10+ level spells with the Shadow-weave. ... else why would Telamont have bothered with Epic levels? -Exactly. If it were possible for Shadow Weave users to cast 10+ Level spells, they'd be doing it already, and not be using Epic level spells. Fact is, no one can easily replicate Karsus feat, he was a super-genius and still took 10+ years to develop the spell. -That, and Mystra destroyed all of the notes that Karsus had on the creation of his spell. So, even if some existed that physically could handle casting a 12th level spell, this hypothetical person has no clue how to create it. And, say that they somehow did learn how to- they still wouldn't be able to. One component is the epidermis of the gizzard of the Terrasque (or something similar). The Tarrasque is, well, not around as of late. Of course, Ed considers the Shadow-weave to be a weak imitation(makes you wonder why Telamont would have chosen to use it at all, if it was originally more limited than the Weave) :) -I'm assuming that he began using the Shadow Weave because, at the time when it was "first discovered" by the Netherese, it was the "hip" thing to do. It does provide some bonuses against the normal Weave which are useful, such as making it harder to dispel and similar effects.
Karsus the Mad 03-07-06, 12:55 AM	-Exactly. If it were possible for Shadow Weave users to cast 10+ Level spells, they'd be doing it already, and not be using Epic level spells. That's assuming they are using epic spells (from a rules view, that's pretty much what they are doing, but I digress) and not true 10th level magic. And again, other than Telemont himself and maybe a few of his sons, what other shadow weave user could cast 10th+ spells? Other than a Netherese, who would even know how? Especially among a culture (pretty much any non-Netherese) who's sole experience and traditions with higher than 9th magic is heavily leant towards Epic magic instead of the primarily Netherese tradition of true level casting?
Lord Karsus 03-07-06, 01:05 AM	That's assuming they are using epic spells (from a rules view, that's pretty much what they are doing, but I digress) and not true 10th level magic. And again, other than Telemont himself and maybe a few of his sons, what other shadow weave user could cast 10th+ spells? Other than a Netherese, who would even know how? Especially among a culture (pretty much any non-Netherese) who's sole experience and traditions with higher than 9th magic is heavily leant towards Epic magic instead of the primarily Netherese tradition of true level casting? -I'm not just talking about the denizens of Thultanthar. I am talking about all users of the Shadow Weave in general. If it were possible to cast 10+ Level spells using the Shadow Weave, don't you think that there would be more Shadow Weave using wizards doing so? A wizard (or cleric, for that matter) using the Shadow Weave, if it were possible to cast 10+ Level spells, will eventually realize that his/her spells are inherently 10+ Level, and not Epic or anything. This is assuming that the wizard would have the capabilities to research and learn 10+ Level spells, or develop his/her own.
Karsus the Mad 03-07-06, 01:23 AM	-I'm not just talking about the denizens of Thultanthar. I am talking about all users of the Shadow Weave in general. If it were possible to cast 10+ Level spells using the Shadow Weave, don't you think that there would be more Shadow Weave using wizards doing so? A wizard (or cleric, for that matter) using the Shadow Weave, if it were possible to cast 10+ Level spells, will eventually realize that his/her spells are inherently 10+ Level, and not Epic or anything. This is assuming that the wizard would have the capabilities to research and learn 10+ Level spells, or develop his/her own. So am I :) And no, I don't think there'd be more (and I certainly hope not!) SW users casting 10th+ magic for the simple reasoning that other than Telemont Tanthul (35th level) and perhaps a few of his sons (I don't know their levels right off hand) there simply aren't any 20th+ level shadow weave users, that I'm aware of anyway. Combine this lack of high level sw users with the dominant cultural tradition of Faerun of using Epic Spellcasting (Netheril being unique in that it's the only known civilization to utilize true 10th+ magic), and most likely you'd get any SW users of sufficient level using Epic Spellcasting instead of true leveled casting because that's what their tradition dictates. They may be shadow weave users, but they're still spellcasters, and like all spellcasters, they cast spells in the tradition they're taught, and for the vast majority of spellcasting tradition in Faerun, it's 8 schools and 0-9th + Epic. The Netherese were unique in that their tradition was 3 fields and 0-12th instead of Epic, and even that tradition was unique to a very exclussive group: the Archwizards. Even the majority of Netherese (mostly Low Netherese) also proscribed to the traditional methodology of 0-9th+Epic, as taught to them by the elves:) At least that's what I've gathered from a few posts on the topic by Mr. Baker, so I may be mistaken.
Zsych 03-07-06, 04:09 AM	Hmm... it's hard to say what the pre-reqs of 10+ level casting are. Quite possibly you'd need a fair amount of luck to stumble upon it. Just like Ioulaum also could cast 12th level spells, but never developed any. Maybe 10th level, in itself is not easy to acquire, without knowledge from the Nether Scrolls. Anyway, where 10th level must have existed, for Telamont to make his mythallar, it's possible that for the rest, as Richard Baker (supposedly) said, Shar does not know how to make a Weave that supports 10+ spells. The Shadow-weave was originally based on the Weave(Mystryl's), and Shar might not have reached the point of being able to replicate the potential for 12th level spells, in her own. Although i suspect that Shar keeping the true secrets of the Shadow-weave for herself, implies that there may be other forms of casting available, and unusual powers that the Weave does not support, that you could potentially(though probably not) acquire. ------------------------------ As for the Imaskari. Ao having to go bring Avatars of other gods from elsewhere, implies to me that where he did want the Imaskari destroyed for some reason, he couldn't shatter the wall they created to bar the Mulan's pantheon himself(or get Mystryl to do it)... The bringing Avatars was just way too extreme. Ao not being able to easily do it, would upgrade the class of their spells considerably :) ... Might even explain why a people who casually barred a whole pantheon, were soon after crushed by an army of farmers, and mere avatars. They should have had the power or magical items to stop the rebellion, unless other forces(possibly under Ao's guidance) were also in play.
Karsus the Mad 03-07-06, 04:52 AM	I always found that odd. Ao removed the Imaskari ban after the ToT. Why he didn't, or couldn't, remove it before hand I've no clue. The obvious answer would be "cuz then we wouldn't have another powerful magic empire that defied deities and then fell due to it's own arrogance and poking around with gods."
Lord Karsus 03-07-06, 07:24 AM	So am I :) And no, I don't think there'd be more (and I certainly hope not!) SW users casting 10th+ magic for the simple reasoning that other than Telemont Tanthul (35th level) and perhaps a few of his sons (I don't know their levels right off hand) there simply aren't any 20th+ level shadow weave users, that I'm aware of anyway. Combine this lack of high level sw users with the dominant cultural tradition of Faerun of using Epic Spellcasting (Netheril being unique in that it's the only known civilization to utilize true 10th+ magic), and most likely you'd get any SW users of sufficient level using Epic Spellcasting instead of true leveled casting because that's what their tradition dictates. They may be shadow weave users, but they're still spellcasters, and like all spellcasters, they cast spells in the tradition they're taught, and for the vast majority of spellcasting tradition in Faerun, it's 8 schools and 0-9th + Epic. The Netherese were unique in that their tradition was 3 fields and 0-12th instead of Epic, and even that tradition was unique to a very exclussive group: the Archwizards. Even the majority of Netherese (mostly Low Netherese) also proscribed to the traditional methodology of 0-9th+Epic, as taught to them by the elves:) At least that's what I've gathered from a few posts on the topic by Mr. Baker, so I may be mistaken. -I agree that there shouldn't be an excessive amount of SW users casting 10+ Levels spells. There should be NONE in my opinion. But, even though the normal Wizard/Sorcerer tradition has 9th level spells as their highest non-Epic spells, they still gain spell-slots as they go up in power. Don't you think that they'd realize, "Hey, I have this inner power within me. I think I might be able to craft, and cast some more spells." They do a little research, a little experimentation, and viola- they've cast a 10+ level spell. -The stories of Netherese arcanists doing amazing things is well known across the Realms. Their lore isn't widespread, but their legacy is. If a wizard/sorcerer using the SW felt he/she had more power, don't you think they would try to develop new, more powerful spells? This is all a theoretical questions, but I think that they would try to develop 10+ Level spells if they realized they could.
Karsus the Mad 03-07-06, 09:30 AM	Well, yes, I tend to agree with you that there shouldn't be any (I think having modern day Realmsian mages tossing 10th+ spells around take away the Netherese-ness of Netheril), but again, how many sw users do you know that have Improved Spell Capacity to fill with a 10th level spell even if they somehow managed to understand such a drastically different methodology?;)
Lord Karsus 03-07-06, 11:38 AM	Well, yes, I tend to agree with you that there shouldn't be any (I think having modern day Realmsian mages tossing 10th+ spells around take away the Netherese-ness of Netheril), but again, how many sw users do you know that have Improved Spell Capacity to fill with a 10th level spell even if they somehow managed to understand such a drastically different methodology?;) -Shadow Weave users tend to be secretive. They wouldn't tell us anyway... :cool:
Karsus the Mad 03-07-06, 06:55 PM	-Shadow Weave users tend to be secretive. They wouldn't tell us anyway... :cool: *exactly* my point (tho' I do appologize for leading a chase around, but I do indeed feel it's important others realize this simple fact of Realmsian rules, as opposed to Lore). It leaves a DM in a position in which he's able to choose (the best way for a DM in the Realms), for or against, and remain within "cannon" (which oddly is something that many desire....ehhhhhh). They are secretive, so if any do exist, I fail to see how us regular Realmsian sages would learn of it, unless of which they desired it to be (which argues the case that we would see them precisely as they want us to see them), ;)
Krash 03-07-06, 07:33 PM	Shar may or may not allow 10th-level shadow weave spells. But if she does (or doesn't) there is a price to pay. With Shar there always is. I wouldn't be jumping on the shadow weave bandwagon without giving a lot of thought as to what I want to happen, to my health, sanity and ultimately, my soul. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 03-07-06, 11:36 PM	They are secretive, so if any do exist, I fail to see how us regular Realmsian sages would learn of it, unless of which they desired it to be (which argues the case that we would see them precisely as they want us to see them), ;) -I suggest that us Karsus' go undercover, and track down some of these guys... :cool:
Zsych 03-08-06, 05:31 AM	With 10th level spells you'd have Ioulaum's Longevity back. Shade's trouble in that area does suggest that he can't use that spell, though it's possible that it only works on humans(and the instant aging on failure, like at Netheril's death, is possibly not a choice you'd want to make... thus wanting to change your body to something long lived) As for wanting 10+ spells. When you're not particularly worried about the evil issue(and reasonably willing to serve Shar), you should remember that an 11th level spell is equivalent to an epic spell of extremely annoying DC, without all of the sacrifices involved. A 12th level spell, should it become possible, would be equivalent to an epic spell of completely ridiculous DC. (and that's where you start wondering what the 13th level spell slot is for :)) ... Naturally, the paths to such magic should be left to NPCs normally, unless your campaign has progressed to the point that you're playing with gods and similar beings all around you. Like that Serpent queen(Shaan?) that Ed mentioned in reference to Larloch's power, the one who casually(and probably without preparing the spell), disintegrated an island. -- Epic spells, generally can't be counted as progress for a people, because they can't be shared, or properly taught, or even written down. Whereas people with access to 10+ spells, can develop on a society level, and grow as a whole, with them.
Telagaunt 03-11-06, 02:23 AM	Depending on Tome of Magic will detail any information on the Imaskari's involvement with any 'Shadow magic' (I don't mean Illusion (Shadow), I mean Shadow Weave/Planar magic), I've decided to try and create a new Imaskarcana. A Shadow Imaskarcana. Preferably one in the shape of a tome (however I intend for it to be disguised as a scepter, and while in this scepter form, it is completely 'dormant' of any power one might get from an Imaskarcana, and one would never know, except the Imaskari who created it, or whoever it was who created it if not the Imaskari). So I was wondering if anyone could lend me some suggestions on how to go about this. The Shadow Imaskarcana I'm planning to have some powerful Shadow magic lore in it, and detail of any Imaskari involvement with Shadow magic.
Zsych 03-12-06, 05:51 AM	I don't really know much about the Imaskarcana, beyond that they held the Imaskari's knowledge possibly for specific groups of magic. Sorta their own version of the Nether scrolls. As for what the Shadow-arcana might contain... I'll assume that the reason that Ao or Mystryl could not easily disable the shield that barred the Mulan's gods, was that it was based on Shadow-magic, which neither of them had experience with. So, what spells to put into the Shadow-arcana... Hmm... a superior magical civilization should be able to produce magical effects at much lower levels through a better understanding of how to utilize magic, and through a better understanding of the laws of the world... In other words, not so much of a brute force approach to magic, and more of a scientific one. ... a 1st level Fireball spell, of power equal to the regular one :) [Maybe that's going too far] But the spells i'm creating are meant to be like that. Hmm... in R.A. Salvatore's Clerical Quintent series, an imp creates runes of desecration that stop access to the gods. I don't really know much about these things, since i've never found clerics to be of any interest. Nevertheless... random spell creation: 8th level spell: Mass Desecration(shuts off access to all gods, within a 100mX100m area... or at least gods of a specific alignment) (that was my instinct telling me to make it 8th level) 10th level spell: Greater Mass Desecration(shuts off access to all gods on a whole planet(or gods of a specific alignment)) 11th level spell: Improved/Meta-magicked, Greater Mass Desecration(same as Greater Mass Desecreation, but controllable so you can exempt gods) Why have i made the effects of the spell general to all gods, rather than specific gods? It's out of the concept that it's always easier to break things than it is to make things. So a spell that disrupts divine access as a whole(attacking the nature of divine communication with the material worlds), should be easier to make than a spell that stops specific gods(which would require also checking which god is attempting access, and then allowing or denying it)
dragonheart 03-12-06, 09:27 AM	months ago in a different thread (you search if you want to fiind it) someone (maybe kujie) pointed out that Mystra was not only the goddess of the weave but also of spells specifically. Even her ban doesn't preven you from using slots higher than nith level if they are used for metamagiced spells and so neither does Shar's shadow weave. Perhaps its not as the weave mistress that she banned 10th level spells but rather as the lady of spells she banned any use of 10+ level spells leaving only epic magic as a way to access that level of power. As mistress of spells her ban applies to both weaves even though it doesn't directly touch the shadow weave at all. you can access the spellslots with either weave but the spells themselves are blocked so all you can do is meta-magic 9- level spells.
Zsych 03-12-06, 01:24 PM	The Imaskari died before the ban, so one would believe that they would write down spells available in their time. It's possible that they followed the path of epic magic, like the elves, instead of 10+ level magic like the Netherese, but i wouldn't bet on it. As for the spells themselves. Nothing happened to them. They didn't vanish from spell books, they just stopped working. Weave users could still cast those spells with Mystra or Azuth's permission, but normally the Weave didn't allow it. If Shar has no objections, you can probably cast them with the Shadow-weave, without any fuss at all(and i doubt she does... it was a cowardly act on Mystra's part to ban 10+ level magic for humans)
Telagaunt 03-12-06, 04:39 PM	I'll assume that the reason that Ao or Mystryl could not easily disable the shield that barred the Mulan's gods, was that it was based on Shadow-magic, which neither of them had experience with. AO aside from the Time of Troubles really doesn't take an interest in anything lol. No divine intervention really. He governs the gods and that's about it. Keeps them from killing off the world. Mystryl at the time was N and did not take an active part in spell creations and such. She didn't moniter the Weave like Mystra and Midnight (new Mystra) do now. Mystryl doesn't change this until Karsus decides to become a god and thus killing Mystryl. After Karsus Folly, Mystryl becomes the first Mystra- LN and governs the Weave in a more active role. So the Imaskari didn't have to use the Shadow Weave in order to bar their slave's pantheons.
GothicDan 03-12-06, 05:13 PM	There's nothing saying that AO or Mystryl gave a hoot about the Imaskari blocking the Mulhorandi deities. There's no evidence saying they tried to destroy it, or that they had any reason to. Thus there's no reason why it should have been Shadow Weave Magic based, especially considering the Imaskari only likely dabbled in Shadow Weave Magic.
Lord Karsus 03-13-06, 12:32 AM	Hmm... in R.A. Salvatore's Clerical Quintent series, an imp creates runes of desecration that stop access to the gods. I don't really know much about these things, since i've never found clerics to be of any interest. Nevertheless... random spell creation: -Druzil's actually a Quasit. Imps are lawful, whereas Quasits are Chaotic. Good ol' 2e to 3e mishap!
Karsus the Mad 03-13-06, 01:27 AM	It's possible that they followed the path of epic magic, like the elves, instead of 10+ level magic like the Netherese, but i wouldn't bet on it. Given that the only Imaskari-specific spells we know of were both epic spells (their deity ban, and the great seal of deep Imaskar), and the complete lack of anything suggesting otherwise, it's more likely they used epic magic and not true 10th+ spells (since if they did have 10th+ spells, their deity ban and great seal would have been those, since they're far more efficient, cost effective, and easier to cast than epic spells). Other than Netheril there isn't anything that suggests other civilizations on Faerun had access to 10th+. That of course doesn't make it the case, but what little facts there are heavily suggests that only the Netherese used true 10th+ spells, and everyone else used epic magic. There's a 9th level spell in CoR that permanently severes the divine link between a person and their deity (the deity must also be your patron). But given their research into the nature of divine magic, their anti-divine magic, etc, it's a possibility the Imaskari had experimented with similar magics, culminating in their greatest epic spell (or worst, depending on PoV) :)
Zsych 03-13-06, 08:00 AM	Hmmm... well i've never read up much on the Imaskari personally, so most of my knowledge of them is from these boards :) I recall reading that Ao talked with the Mulan's gods, and helped them bring their avatars to Toril, despite the Imaskari barrier(sorta by temporarily giving up their godhood and putting all of their power into their avatars) Then the Imaskari got caught with their pants down, and were destroyed by the rebelling slaves, and the avatars. ... If Ao did something so extreme(as to bring over avatars) then i assume that he couldn't disable the barrier himself. --- Hmm... one wonders why the Deep Imaskari still managed to lose much of their knowledge. It's not like their main magic was banned(if it wasn't 10+). They should have managed to retain their level(might even have been intriguing, the imminent arrival of such mages in Faerun). Of course, if the Deep Imaskari are so magic loving, i'd expect them to be (attempting to)pay the Shades, and the elves of Evermeet a visit.
Lord Karsus 03-13-06, 08:59 AM	Of course, if the Deep Imaskari are so magic loving, i'd expect them to be (attempting to)pay the Shades, and the elves of Evermeet a visit. -The Deep Imaskari are also extremely xenophobic, distrustful of others, and isolationist. But, they've only just recently been introduced- who knows where their true motives lie?
Zsych 03-13-06, 12:53 PM	The Deep Imaskari are god worshipping basically neutral people, that seem to have been described as magic loving children. I don't see any imminent ill intentions :) By and large, Faerun is a decent enough place, and most people are decent. (Which is why Faerun is as good a place for evil campaigns as good)
Karsus the Mad 03-13-06, 01:24 PM	Personally, I don't see why Deep Imaskari worship deities. If anything, having had my entire civilization, family, friends, way of life, etc, utterly destroyed by deities would have made me have a seriously more anti-deity attitude than previously. I'd be the paragorn of atheism.
dragonheart 03-13-06, 09:15 PM	KArsus, that or suddenly realize that I(we) were not nearly as powerful as we thought we were and convert to a group of dieties we could deal with. WHich raises an interesting question - which dieties do they worship? they fell when Netheril was young so most of the modern dieties would not work since they have been isolated since then. only Mystryl/Mystra, SHaundukul, Amuantor (I suppose we could allow Lathander if the triple phase idea is correct), Jergal, SHar, Selune, CHantea, GAragos, Tyche (would they know of the split into Tymora and Beshaba?) the elemental dieties (and perhaps the storm dieties) and Silvanus. of those the storm dieties, GAragos, Selune, Silvanus, and Shaundukul seem a stretch.
Karsus the Mad 03-13-06, 09:27 PM	I'm not entirely sure which deities they worship. I don't have the book, and I've only ever glanced through Deep Imaskar once when I was in a game store, but I remember Mystra, Shar, and Grumbar (the elemental god of earth). If there's others, I've no clue:)
Telagaunt 03-13-06, 10:54 PM	-The Deep Imaskari are also extremely xenophobic, distrustful of others, and isolationist. But, they've only just recently been introduced- who knows where their true motives lie? For now Deep Imaskar is at peace. They don't have hidden agendas, obviously a few individuals, but as Underdark says, they've been free of corruption for the last few hundred years, and they don't seek anymore conquests, or control of others. Just live happily, and love magic lol From the original uprising of the slaves, building Deep Imaskar, Necromancer rulership for a bit, and failed conquests on the Air and Water Planes, Deep Imaskari have some reason to lack motivation (well, I mean, not feel the need to go on and try to conquer again), distrustful, although they are mostly just distrustful or suspicious of Mulhorand and Unther people.
Lord Karsus 03-13-06, 11:42 PM	For now Deep Imaskar is at peace. They don't have hidden agendas, obviously a few individuals, but as Underdark says, they've been free of corruption for the last few hundred years, and they don't seek anymore conquests, or control of others. Just live happily, and love magic lol From the original uprising of the slaves, building Deep Imaskar, Necromancer rulership for a bit, and failed conquests on the Air and Water Planes, Deep Imaskari have some reason to lack motivation (well, I mean, not feel the need to go on and try to conquer again), distrustful, although they are mostly just distrustful or suspicious of Mulhorand and Unther people. The Deep Imaskari are god worshipping basically neutral people, that seem to have been described as magic loving children. I don't see any imminent ill intentions By and large, Faerun is a decent enough place, and most people are decent. (Which is why Faerun is as good a place for evil campaigns as good) -I never said that they had any ill-intentions. I merely mentioned that we don't know what their true intentions are... ;)
Zsych 03-14-06, 03:53 PM	I was just adding to what you were saying, not trying to contradict it :) Wonder what other Imaskari descendents will do once it becomes clear what the origins of the Deep Imaskari are. --- As for gods, i agree with Karsus that such an act would only heighten my hatred for gods(which is rather considerable already :)) One's creator demanding something i suppose is understandable. But various other super beings demanding worship??? Still pragmatism i suppose requires that a weak person get some strong backing if he wishes to survive. (especially considering what happens to you if you die in FR and are faithless) @Dragonheart: They were as powerful as they thought they were. They barred a whole pantheon from the realms, and were only brought down when Ao decided to interfere, and bring those avatars into the game... and even then they were probably only defeated because before the Mulan enslavement they had been nearly annihilated by a plague, so that it was only a few survivors of Imaskar that tried to save their people and rebuild, by gaining the Mulan slaves. Imaskar at it's full might, before the plague, might well have been able to deal with the Mulan gods, and their avatars easily enough. (which means that diseases are to be feared far more than the physical might of most gods :) lots of little things you can't see are harder to fight than one big beast that's clearly in front of you :))
Lord Karsus 03-15-06, 12:40 AM	As for gods, i agree with Karsus that such an act would only heighten my hatred for gods(which is rather considerable already :)) One's creator demanding something i suppose is understandable. But various other super beings demanding worship??? Still pragmatism i suppose requires that a weak person get some strong backing if he wishes to survive. (especially considering what happens to you if you die in FR and are faithless) -What the Deep Imaskari should do is worship the Roman Gods, if they somehow learned about them while hopping the multiverse back in their better days. After all, the Romans conquered the Egyptians, so there's no one better to worship than those who conquered your enemies (sort of).
Zsych 03-16-06, 04:09 AM	The Roman gods would have no presence in Toril, so it's hard to say whether or not you'd end up on the wall of the Faithless, but i expect you would, unless the Roman gods managed to work out something(and the local laws allowed it)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-16-06, 04:22 AM	The Roman gods would have no presence in Toril, so it's hard to say whether or not you'd end up on the wall of the Faithless, but i expect you would, unless the Roman gods managed to work out something(and the local laws allowed it) It's almost assured that they'd have bargains in place with various deities that have a deific presence on Toril to claim worshippers of the Roman Pantheon in their stead, and then pass them along to the proper deity. It makes sense just to keep things smooth when one of the members of the Torillian pantheon sends a worshipper or divine servant out onto one of the various prime material worlds where the Roman (or other non Torillian) pantheon holds sway. But still, with a culture worshipping them they'd soon enough have a proper deific presence in the Realms (though I'd see the Deep Imaskari not risking things by worshipping deities that didn't yet have a proper presence there, thus risking ending up in the Wall of the Faithless. More likely they'd choose among the Faerunian deities, or simply leave Toril to another world on the prime, or one of the planes, where the strictures of worship set down by the Faerunian deities (and thus the wall of the faithless) no longer mattered.)
Zsych 03-16-06, 05:16 AM	That assumes that they know about the Wall of the Faithless. If the Netherese or the Imaskari had known about the Wall, they'd likely have at least shown some token support for various dieties. No Netherese had ever become a god. And where the Imaskari may well have been capable of bashing the gods' heads in, during their better days, even they generally died. (Of course, they could have chosen to crush the god of death into nothing... i'm saying this for the pre-plague times when their population hadn't been decimated and they were forced to acquire slaves) Hmm.... i wonder, the epic spell they used to bar the Mulan gods... Maybe a lot of their wizards died during the casting and that's what stopped them from taking further serious measures against the avatars. I can see lots of great wizards pulling together to help restore their destroyed civilization(with an attempt that further destroyed it... just like Karsus' misfortune)
Karsus the Mad 03-16-06, 10:21 AM	No Netherese had ever become a god. Ah, I did :D Albeit briefly. While both the Imaskari and Archwizards didn't worship gods, the Imaskari actually understood that there were gods. The Archwizards on the other hand merely believed the gods were spellcasters that had simply attained "ultimate magic".
Zsych 03-16-06, 10:58 AM	Karsus' temporary ascension does not pertain to Netherese culture :) The Netherese did know that the gods were plenty powerful, if they'd known about the fate of the dead, i'm sure they'd have done something. And the Imaskari... they considered gods akin to regular dirt as well(completely unworthy of worship by humans). I'm sure that if they'd known about their fate after death, they'd have tried to change it too. (that would've been amusing, the god of death forever barred from Toril :))
Lord Karsus 03-17-06, 01:29 AM	Karsus' temporary ascension does not pertain to Netherese culture :) The Netherese did know that the gods were plenty powerful, if they'd known about the fate of the dead, i'm sure they'd have done something. And the Imaskari... they considered gods akin to regular dirt as well(completely unworthy of worship by humans). I'm sure that if they'd known about their fate after death, they'd have tried to change it too. (that would've been amusing, the god of death forever barred from Toril :)) -Karsus' Ascention not pertaining to Netherese culture? What are you talking about!? His brief- and still somewhat lingering- divinity had a great deal of impact on Netherese culture. It, well, kinda ended it. :( .That sure is pertaining to their culture. -The effectss of not having a god of death can be seen somewhat during the Avatar Crisis. After the gods/goddesses were cast from the heavens/hells, there was no more God of Death. Myrkul could not process the dead, and everything that he did. People continued living, even after technically dying. I think there was a somewhat comical scene about that somewhere in the series...
Karsus the Mad 03-18-06, 07:15 AM	Karsus' temporary ascension does not pertain to Netherese culture ? Achieving deityhood (Netherese called it "ultimate magic") was the driving force behind most of the archwizards. It was also the reason they refused divine magic services (healing, etc). They believed accepting the aid of a god would prevent themselves from ever achieving godhood themselves. That doesn't mean they didn't understand what a god was, and many arcanists revered, if not worshipped the gods. Ioulaum is an excellent example. He was even part of the clergy of Mystryl, and was the only archwizard to allow a temple on his enclave. In general however, the Netherese simply had a different PoV about gods and divinity. They believed gods were merely mortals that had discovered ultimate magic, and many attempted to discover this "ultimate magic". Karsus was the only one to ever succeed. When he discovered 12th level magic, he deemed "this to be the magic of the gods", and the cultural drive culminated in the 12th level spell Karsus's Avatar. The Imaskari had a different PoV. They understood gods differently than the Netherese. They knew gods were different from mortals, at a base level, and they feared this (mortals often fear and hate anything that can threaten their own power). It's this fear and hatred that drove the Imaskari. Unlike the Netherese, who used magic to try and facilitate their own ascension, the Imaskari used magic to try to neutralize the divine. They had magic that specifically protected against divine magic, spells that specifically attacked divine casters, etc, culminating in their greatest spell, deity ban. Both civilizations had similar feelings (disrespect, envy, fear, etc) towards the divine, but for completely different reasons :) Merely my speculation however, given the various (and all too few) facts I've been able to discern from books.
Zsych 03-19-06, 07:49 AM	Since Karsus ascension ended Netherese culture, it obviously did not determine the Netherese' cultural behavior. As for recognizing that the gods were different, the Netherese probably just thought that you could transform yourself into a god(which Velsharoon's ascension shows that you can). Hmm... the Imaskari also suffered serious damage in their fights with the Phaerimm that they had accidentally created(perhaps on the way to becoming gods themselves). One of the authors suggested that the Phaerimm transformation is the ultimate form of some type of magical evolution(which is why they plagued the Sarrukh as well, long before the Imaskari created them)
Lord Karsus 03-19-06, 11:31 PM	Since Karsus ascension ended Netherese culture, it obviously did not determine the Netherese' cultural behavior. As for recognizing that the gods were different, the Netherese probably just thought that you could transform yourself into a god(which Velsharoon's ascension shows that you can). Hmm... the Imaskari also suffered serious damage in their fights with the Phaerimm that they had accidentally created(perhaps on the way to becoming gods themselves). One of the authors suggested that the Phaerimm transformation is the ultimate form of some type of magical evolution(which is why they plagued the Sarrukh as well, long before the Imaskari created them) -Well, I shouldn't have said that it ended Netherese culture. It still lived on in Netheril's spawn-states, and in the barbarians who lived around Netheril. It's akin to how the fall of Rome affected the rest of the Italian peninsula. Everything fell into disarray, and drastically changed everyone's life. Albeit, there were different factors going on there, but I'm sure you know what I mean by this analogy. -Velsharoon didn't become a god through his sheer will and desire to do so. Talos sponsored his apotheosis to divinity, because he had some other motives, which mainly included syphoning his divine energy away.
BrennonGoldeye 03-21-06, 09:40 PM	Zsych, The previously mentioned book will answer 80% of your questions. No more maybe's and I wonders. :D
Lord Karsus 03-21-06, 10:58 PM	Zsych, The previously mentioned book will answer 80% of your questions. No more maybe's and I wonders. :D -Lost Empires of Faerūn doesn't have all of the answers about Imaskar, and Netheril, and all of the other things that we're discussing. Lots of it is only opinion, and can't be found anywhere but here.
BrennonGoldeye 03-22-06, 08:19 AM	-Lost Empires of Faerūn doesn't have all of the answers about Imaskar, and Netheril, and all of the other things that we're discussing. Lots of it is only opinion, and can't be found anywhere but here. Nothing has all the answers to your myriad of questions, but I have to admit there is always somebodies opinion sticking itself in your proverbial face here. I have the opinion that having multiple Karsi' in one discussion is like trying to grade Halaster's inkblot test. Nothing wrong with opinions. :cool:
Lord Karsus 03-23-06, 07:22 AM	Nothing has all the answers to your myriad of questions, but I have to admit there is always somebodies opinion sticking itself in your proverbial face here. I have the opinion that having multiple Karsi' in one discussion is like trying to grade Halaster's inkblot test. Nothing wrong with opinions. :cool: -Well, it depends on when you want to grade his test. He's been cured of his insanity, for the most part (although, I think that's no fun). But, I am sure that if a psychologist ever saw Halaster at the peak of his, well, craziness, they'd be quite perplexed. Psychologist: I am going to administer the Rowshache (sp?) test now, Halaster. Tell me- what do you see on this card? Halaster: ... The Mad Mage of Undermountain proceeds to animate the mundane objects in the room, polymorphs the doctor into a dwelf (I hate Dwelves, those hypothetical nightmares that they are), and plane shifts away, whooping and hollering.
BrennonGoldeye 03-23-06, 08:02 AM	OK, that reponse was worthy enough to allow all the Karsi you want. :D