Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 02:59 PM	I feel the need to share this. I've only had this conversation once with my players, then they got the message. The Worst RPG group in Faerun handles NPCs of power Me: An army of orcs is about to take the town of Shadowdale by storm. Chris: Uhhhh, I go knock on Elminster's door. Me: You find a note tacked upon the door frame. It says "I'm currently visiting another world at this time. I don't know when I'll be back but I'm sure to bring souvenirs. If there is any problems, please contact a rag-tag group of adventurers and have them take care of it. Signed---E." Chris: You're kidding. Me: Nope. Chris: It actually says that? Me: Mmmm hmm. Chris: Where's Storm? Sylune. Me: Out. Chris: Out where? Me: No one knows. Being Harpers, they have a tendency to wander. Chris: And when they get back... Me: Well, they might not come back if Shadowdale is a smoking ruin. Being centuries old, you get used to the transient nature of life... Chris: I see, so it's up to us again. Kyle: Errr....duh. Chris: I'm just checking to see where the Usual Suspects are. Me: Alustriel, should you enter a portal, is currently suffering magical flu. The Simbul would probably slaughter the whole of Shadowdale before you informed her you were against the Orcs then get bored halfway....you'd be just as good contacting Halastar to be honest. Khelben is also visiting another world, specifically the Nine Hells, where he's going to be playing chess with Asmodeus for a month. Larael is indisposed on Evermeet with six randy young elves and her vacation is not to be disturbed. Qilue is having a naked festival in Arborea. Chris: Drizzt? Me: Currently on a boat, hunting pirates. No forwarding map. Chris: Do you make these up off the top of your head or do you have a list? Me: Yes. Frankly, I've never quite forgiven you for Operation: Roundhouse. Kyle: Oh come on! Hiring Artemis Entreri to kill your Big Bad was awesome! Chris: I still call :censored: on the idea he won't accept a contract on Manshoon or Fzoul. Me: Yes, well, live and learn. Phillip: If you guys are done, can we actually act like heroes? Kyle: only if we have to.
Lykor 02-15-08, 08:51 PM	This thread is 100% WIN.
Ultimatecalibur 02-16-08, 12:36 AM	:rofl: Love the "Gone Planeswalking" note.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 12:42 AM	For me, I honestly think part of the problem is that a lot of fans are too bent up about the idea that the Forgotten Realms are a world with multiple conflicts. I've likened it to the Marvel Universe or DC comics in my game. The players have their own Forgotten Realms comic book. I call it "The Book of PCs" just like every other major character has their own comic book (or novels in this case). Over in Elminster: The Wizard of Steel's comic, he's doing all the stuff that keeps him occupied 24-7. I do, agree however, that the Realms have tended to dilute the amount of heroism that a high level is supposed to represent. To me, I stick with the idea of 20th level being meant to represent the absolute greatest hero types of all times. But what makes the PCs heroes isn't their levels but their deeds.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 07:12 AM	But what makes the PCs heroes isn't their levels but their deeds. -And that's the bottom line, 'cause LK said so!
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 12:23 AM	Okay, now I've got to ask. What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up?
18DELTA 02-17-08, 03:22 AM	-Delta like, Delta like!:D 18DELTA:)
Khaelieth 02-17-08, 07:20 AM	Strippers.
Drew1369r 02-17-08, 07:38 AM	Okay, now I've got to ask. What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up? They are too busy with more important stuff at the moment, but thats only if someone asks, as for the group I use to DM for the people were experienced at the game and new that no reward would come if someone else did the work.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 08:43 AM	What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up? -If you go to the 4e Forgotten Realms section, there are threads a dime a dozen about just that.
Bonzai 02-17-08, 01:12 PM	Okay, now I've got to ask. What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up? #1. Give the bad guys some credit, and figure that they planed for the eventuality of having to deal with the NPC. Perhaps they sent them off on a wild goose chase. Perhaps they framed a more powerful evil as the culprit, and their attention is else where. Thus, they have a window of opportunity to act, and get some hostages ready for when they get back. #2. Bound by politics. Many of the NPC's may have the power to solve the issue a dozen times over, but because of their duties and responsibilities, they can't act. Perhaps they are forbidden from interfering by the city council. Perhaps if they move, a political rival could seize power behind their backs. Perhaps acting directly could be seen as a threat by other powers, and bring about terrible ramifications. #3. Bigger fish to fry. These are the Uber powerful of the realms right? So odds are an orc raid on a town doesn't quite stack up against the threats that they are facing. Elder Evils, Fiendish incursions, apocalyptic rituals, inter planar incursions, malicious artifacts, the destruction of the weave, etc... #4. Divine intervention. Most of these uber powerful npcs are subservient to one deity or another. Perhaps the deity forbids them from interfering. Like Simbul not being able to wholesale slaughter Red Wizards anymore. #5. Taken out of the picture. For example, Elminister. For years he was trapped in hell. Now he's in some extra-dimensional pocket plane, licking his wounds, where he will remain until the end of the spell plague. Laerial now has two small kids to raise, so is out the picture for a good 15 years or so. And so on.
Alter_Boy 02-17-08, 07:12 PM	Definately the worst RPG group on Faerun. They didn't even think of asking for Regis and Wulfgar! :angelhide Very funny indeed.
Muradin 02-18-08, 08:53 AM	Maybe this will look weird. I ran a campaign where my players and i are playing for the love of the game and not for the "let's kill a town so we will have enough experince to advance a level". Players are 17th level and their characters are now five(!) years old. And to tell you the truth i very rarely give xp, only if they are trully deserve that. I never liked that type of gaming where you beat 5 top enemies and now you gained a level. Maybe i'm a little bit conservative but the 3rd edition level advancement is way too fast.
herceg 02-18-08, 02:44 PM	Maybe this will look weird. I ran a campaign where my players and i are playing for the love of the game and not for the "let's kill a town so we will have enough experince to advance a level". Players are 17th level and their characters are now five(!) years old. And to tell you the truth i very rarely give xp, only if they are trully deserve that. I never liked that type of gaming where you beat 5 top enemies and now you gained a level. Maybe i'm a little bit conservative but the 3rd edition level advancement is way too fast. Jeez... 17th level isn't a bit too much for a bunch of 5 years old kids? :P
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 02:46 PM	Jeez... 17th level isn't a bit too much for a bunch of 5 years old kids? :P -Kids these days are more advanced that the children of times past.
herceg 02-18-08, 02:49 PM	Yeah, it took you 18(?) years to become an Archwizard - and now these kiddos could archieve that in say another 3-4 years... a shame shame shame... :D
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 02:54 PM	Yeah, it took you 18(?) years to become an Archwizard - and now these kiddos could archieve that in say another 3-4 years... a shame shame shame... :D -With their new-fangled cell phones, and their MTV...
Muradin 02-18-08, 04:08 PM	I see you've got my point:D
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 04:13 PM	I see you've got my point:D -Of course. Lord Karsus sees everything.
Storm_Silverhand 02-18-08, 05:41 PM	Heya, :rofl: That was funny, Charles. :) As for how I'd handle it... PCs: Why can't <insert high level character here> take care of this? Me: They're not here. PCs: We go look them up, ask them to help. Me: You can't find them at their home. PCs: So what are they doing? Me: How would you know? PCs: ... Game continues. If they get really insistent, I'd let them make a Gather Information check to find out what the High level NPC is up to, but set the DC to know exactly what they're up to very high - after all, if the high level bad guys don't know what the Chosen of Mystra are up to, why should the PCs?
The_Shaman 02-18-08, 07:00 PM	Okay, now I've got to ask. What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up? They're not there, simple as that. Whether Elminster is looking for an apprentice in Calimshan, scouting undercover in Haalrua, or just has a romantic night out with the Simbul is none of the characters' business. Chances are that all of the high-powered NPCs need a night out every now and then.
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 07:07 PM	I confess, I also like to occasionally drop hints that the player characters are not the only heroes out there. They're the ones that might suceed. Me: There's a horde of scattered bones at the foot of the lair. One appears to be the remains of a Knight of Samular, his squire, and Clerical advisor. There's also a melted down Harper Pin.
herceg 02-19-08, 01:21 AM	By the way Charles - good post :) I hate people with stupid questions (especielly if there's no way they could/should know the answer). But I think I'm lucky in that my (current :D) PCs go out of their way to avoid meeting famous NPCs (and I'm helping them enthusiastically:)) (Btw IMHO buying the services of Artemis Entreri - if they had enough IC knowledge about him - is simply... brilliant :D - Of course, not in the eyes of the DM, but brilliant nonetheless [just like saying he won't acceppt contracts on people way out of his league. :D Good job])
totecka 02-19-08, 03:26 AM	Ohh, I see my next adventure. DM: You are in a tavern. The party of adventurers arrives as expected. Player: Ok, I convince them to kill the bandit Ogre. DM: Ok, roll a Diplomacy check! Player: 15 + 13 = 28 DM: Ok, you hired them for a small sum of 100 gold. After a week, they return, and bring you the head of the ogre. Player: We take the head, and pay the gold. ... What an adventure...
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 03:48 AM	To be fair, Chris' character of Edgar the Gnome is a humor character. Basically; he's the most cowardly, egotistical, lecherous maniac you'll ever find...and what do you expect from a CN Gnomish Rogue/Illusionist? I'm just surprised he actually paid up. Kyle just loves it when he puts one over me.
herceg 02-19-08, 04:11 AM	But the reasons you gave (for the absence of the high-ups) were... hilarious :D I wish I could improvise like that :)
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 04:19 AM	I forgot Dove, of course. If they'd remembered her, I would have said this. Me: Dove has since found Florin once more cheating on her. Probably with a guy this time, not that there's anything wrong with that. If you survive, you may find her glaring over him in an elven healing house outside of Myth Drannor with a few arrows stuck in him. The Knights may kill some orcs here and there but just as likely they'll be rescuing idiot noblemen trying to loot Myth Drannor's secrets. And of course, The_Mess gave me this one. Michael: and Danillo Thann or Arilyn? Me: Yes, Danillo Thann will come rescue you. I want you to write a letter, personally stamped with your seal, and deliver it right to his front door. A letter that says, I'm sorry, but I need a BARD to come save me. Michael: Errr nevermind.
herceg 02-19-08, 04:26 AM	:clap: :ayyyy!: *requesting permission to sig this part: Me: Yes, Danillo Thann will come rescue you. I want you to write a letter, personally stamped with your seal, and deliver it right to his front door. A letter that says, I'm sorry, but I need a BARD to come save me. Michael: Errr nevermind.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 04:34 AM	So granted.
herceg 02-19-08, 05:03 AM	So granted. Sooo sigged :)
Alleran 02-19-08, 06:21 AM	What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up? *party is in Undermountain* "So, when do we run into Halaster?" "Why would you?" "Well, because it's his home, we'll have to meet him sometime." "Plenty of other adventurer bands never meet him, so why should you?" "Oh."
Muradin 02-19-08, 06:38 AM	Again thank God that my Pcs are not this type. Anyway a pc with this mentality towards the game would make me mad and i would throw him out (as it happened some time ago:rolleyes: ) I love improvizing too, either that or make a huge load of premade scripts. No way.
Flicker 02-19-08, 07:43 AM	You know what really worries me about this thread? Lots of posts agreeing with the humour/ways round things, yet sadly, looking at the way things seem to be going, nobody acknowledging that the cowardly PC's seem to have convinced WotC that they are correct. 2 ways of me dealing with characters who want High level NPC's involved. PC's- We knock on Elminster's door. El- Well Met! PC's- There's this orc army coming to destroy Shadowdale, can you give us a hand please? El- Sure, just get my hat. PC's- Sorry, you said yes? El- Sure, can't have an orc army destroying Shadowdale, I'll deal with it. Could you do this for me please in the meantime, here, i'll conjure this gate. Gate Opens. El- Right, I'm talking to the General of that Demonic Army, yes, him, the one with 5 heads, 10 tentacles and 4 legs, you'll need to convince him that lending your support to his army will swing the balance in this battle, which means that the war will be stalemate, perpetuating the status quo and saving all the people in this city? Ok got that, off you go. PC's- Eh, but, orcs, eh demons, err we're only 4th level. El- I'm sorry, you're what? I thought you were adventurers?. Scenario 2. PC's- I want to meet (insert name of so called 'overpowered NPC) DM- Sure, you approach, their home/palace/place of work/dungeon etc. PC's- We want their help. DM- For rulers- The cost of an appointment is 1000gp for the first level rising by 5000gp increments as the officials get progresively higher, there are 10 levels. DM-For individuals, Such and such asks, how much you are willing to pay them for their time? PC's But they're good DM- Well yeh, but when you are that 'good' it costs you know. PC's- we'll pay it DM- ok, please sign the standard contract. PC's- Standard contract? DM- Sure, they can claim all expenses, get a 60% share of the treasure and first 3 picks on the magic items. PC's- But we want that? DM- So do they, are you going to say no..............?
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:28 AM	2 ways of me dealing with characters who want High level NPC's involved. PC's- We knock on Elminster's door. El- Well Met! PC's- There's this orc army coming to destroy Shadowdale, can you give us a hand please? El- Sure, just get my hat. PC's- Sorry, you said yes? El- Sure, can't have an orc army destroying Shadowdale, I'll deal with it. Could you do this for me please in the meantime, here, i'll conjure this gate. Gate Opens. El- Right, I'm talking to the General of that Demonic Army, yes, him, the one with 5 heads, 10 tentacles and 4 legs, you'll need to convince him that lending your support to his army will swing the balance in this battle, which means that the war will be stalemate, perpetuating the status quo and saving all the people in this city? Ok got that, off you go. PC's- Eh, but, orcs, eh demons, err we're only 4th level. El- I'm sorry, you're what? I thought you were adventurers?. -I like this one. :)
Yaeri 02-19-08, 09:00 AM	Actually, I think making it seem like you have to come up with all these silly reasons is helping the other camp more. :P PS: I've never had to deal with the problem myself. I've never had PC's wanting to look for this or that other hero. They've once or twice asked an NPC they met to join them on their quest. (as a guide or as support)
Storm_Silverhand 02-20-08, 05:41 PM	Heya, Actually, I think making it seem like you have to come up with all these silly reasons is helping the other camp more. :P I don't know... Making them make a Gather Information check to know what's going on with the NPCs, and otherwise not making up an excuse isn't a silly reason to me. :P PS: I've never had to deal with the problem myself. I've never had PC's wanting to look for this or that other hero. They've once or twice asked an NPC they met to join them on their quest. (as a guide or as support) Neither have I. I like when major NPCs make appearances in games I play in. My other half, who runs one on one games for me, usually feels the need to bring them in, because I like it. When I'm DM, I handle things the way I stated unless the PCs have done something that would draw direct attention... and then only if the players didn't mind Iconic NPCs making appearances (Which, thank the gods, they don't mind... I'm not running the Realms at the moment, but the homebrew I am running has NPC of a similar order to the Realms, and there's never been any complaints from my players - they enjoy interacting with them).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-20-08, 09:10 PM	Neither have I. I like when major NPCs make appearances in games I play in. That's my attitude, as well.:)
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 10:35 PM	For me, I honestly think that there's nothing wrong with establishing the following facts. * There is other stuff going on in Faerun. * The other NPCs have their own lives. * Getting in touch with them, even in a portal filled world is troublesome. * You shouldn't automatically dismiss attempts to contact them. If the adventure won't be inhibited, I might let the players get Drizzt's help to go slay some extra monsters and save lives. Nevertheless, they shouldn't have any magic wand to solving any problem they encounter just because someone is powerful.
Bonzai 02-21-08, 01:40 PM	Lol, this thread has created a very funny image in my mind. PC #1: Ok, now we've learned about the orc horde about to attack this unsuspecting village. Now we have to figure out a way to stop them! PC #2: No need. PC #1: Um... Excuse me? PC #2: I said that there is no need for us to do anything. PC #1: But the people! If we don't do something, the village will be destroyed. Innocent lives will be lost! PC #2: No they won't. PC #1: But we know that the Orcs are going to attack! PC #2: Yes we do. PC #1: I don't understand.... PC #2: Well it's quite simple. This is the Realms. You can't go anywhere without running into some insanely high level do gooder type. Heck, you can't even go into a major city without tripping over one chosen or another. So you see, we are immaterial at this point. Some uberly powerful good samaritan is bound to come along and put a stop to it. There is absolutley nothing more for us to do, but go up on that hill over there and watch the show. We'd just be in the way if we tried to help. PC #1: I don't know... what if... PC #2: None sense! Come on, it will be fun to see some real pro's in action. :: they go up the hill and wait:: PC #1: The Orcs! I see them! PC #2: Great! Any minute now, Elminister or the Simbul will show up, and blast the entire horde to smithereens with a single spell! PC #1: The people have spotted them! The towns in panic! We got to help them! PC #2: They are simply building up the suspence. PC #1: Some of the villagers are putting up some resistance, but they are going to be cut down! PC #2: Any second now! :: they watch as the entire population is slaughtered, and the village raised to the ground:: PC #2: Ok... new plan. We high tail it out of here, and speak of this to no one. PC #1: I'm no longer lawful good, am I?
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 01:58 PM	:)
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 02:43 PM	Take a laugh point, sir. :evillaugh
RanielK 02-21-08, 06:10 PM	Lol, this thread has created a very funny image in my mind. PC #1: Ok, now we've learned about the orc horde about to attack this unsuspecting village. Now we have to figure out a way to stop them! PC #2: No need. PC #1: Um... Excuse me? PC #2: I said that there is no need for us to do anything. PC #1: But the people! If we don't do something, the village will be destroyed. Innocent lives will be lost! PC #2: No they won't. PC #1: But we know that the Orcs are going to attack! PC #2: Yes we do. PC #1: I don't understand.... PC #2: Well it's quite simple. This is the Realms. You can't go anywhere without running into some insanely high level do gooder type. Heck, you can't even go into a major city without tripping over one chosen or another. So you see, we are immaterial at this point. Some uberly powerful good samaritan is bound to come along and put a stop to it. There is absolutley nothing more for us to do, but go up on that hill over there and watch the show. We'd just be in the way if we tried to help. PC #1: I don't know... what if... PC #2: None sense! Come on, it will be fun to see some real pro's in action. :: they go up the hill and wait:: PC #1: The Orcs! I see them! PC #2: Great! Any minute now, Elminister or the Simbul will show up, and blast the entire horde to smithereens with a single spell! PC #1: The people have spotted them! The towns in panic! We got to help them! PC #2: They are simply building up the suspence. PC #1: Some of the villagers are putting up some resistance, but they are going to be cut down! PC #2: Any second now! :: they watch as the entire population is slaughtered, and the village raised to the ground:: PC #2: Ok... new plan. We high tail it out of here, and speak of this to no one. PC #1: I'm no longer lawful good, am I? :rofl: :clap:
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 06:39 PM	I did have one similiar argument. Kyle: So how does the Realms work with all these superpowered guys? Me: A, there's not that many to begin with. B, there's less in my Realms. C, there's an equal and greater number of bad guys who constantly are beating the crap out of the heroes.
GoldDragon 02-21-08, 08:50 PM	Okay, now I've got to ask. What are YOUR excuses for various overpowered NPCs not showing up? 1st line of defense is the local average police/guard 2nd line of defense is local above average police/guard 3rd line of defense is special police/guard teams 4th line of defense is local low level adventurers/heroes 5th line of defense is local medium level adventurers/heroes 6th line of defense is local high level adventurers/heroes 7th line of defense is hired from out of town low level adventurers/heroes 8th line of defense is hired from out of town medium level adventurers/heroes 9th line of defense is hired from out of high level adventurers 10th line of defense, after all of the above have failed/died...do you attempt to knock on likes of Eliminster's door...and he is usually out on business because somewhere Else is personal pressing business or he has excepted another person's plea for help after they to have become desperate enough after exhausting all their local and hired resources that have failed/died. 11th line of defense At this point the need for "divine intervention" brings someone that can help..usually non-descript and when done the Help disapears...never to be seen or heard from again (Angel? Minion?,Avatar?...who knows) Note that on average, the group of Adventurer's your PCs usually occupy on this scale is after local guards and warriors and police and local heroes of note have been unable to stop/solve the problem and they are willing to let Strangers solve the problem for them Also note that if a 1st level fighter, a 3rd level Mage, and a 5th level Cleric are the "local heroes" they count as "Low","medium",and "High" on this relative scale and the average town might not even have a significant adventurer population. Oh, and attacking Shadowdale is about the stupidest thing anyone can do cause while it is true Eliminster may be "usually out" the place has the highest concentration of flee lance adventurers of all levels on the face of Toril that will defend the town if not just to have a place to swap stories at the "Famous tavern/Inn". Honestly, bothering Eliminster when you trip over adventurers left and right in the town honestly doesn't make sense to me.....Hiring "Gunter" a 11th Level Fighter for a dividend on all booty and two rounds in the tavern and as a helper (not a savior) from Shadowdale is a more realistic scenario to happen then Hiring Eliminster.....really Of Course nobody never heard of Gunter before <snicker> and when needed he can seem to do more then a "Mere 11th level Fighter" and when the party succeeds he mysteriously disappears when camping/at the inn and if you go back to Shadowdale nobody ever heard of him...even if he said "he was a local that live there" (enter "twilight zone" music here)
Charles Phipps 03-19-08, 08:40 PM	Yeah, it always boils down to the fact that NPCs can't go to the bathroom or stop a cavern of Kobolds without the NPCs. You think a 32nd level Simbul could stop the Kobolds, but no, if there's a problem then she calls the PCs or its ANARCHY!
Keldar 03-20-08, 12:00 AM	Basic scenario: Player A: Where is Elmister? He could deal with this in a heartbeat. DM: You could go ask him. Seeing as the orc horde is just over the hill, that will probably have to wait until after they are dealt with. Somehow they never get around to asking.