Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mushi 09-09-03, 03:05 PM	Thay, the nation of my favorite evil wizards looks to be doing pretty good right now. I'm curious though as to what Thay and the red wizards will be like in the future, but I'm no realms junkie so I'm asking what you predict.
Cunning Linguist 09-09-03, 03:43 PM	Well, this is what I see in store for them. The Shades and Thay is bound to hit it off. And I see that they sign an alliance. If Thay starts to work with the Shades, there might be a uprising of Shadow weave users in Thay. All thou, not all will do this, since they need normal wizards to make none-shadow items to sell. And some schools of magic will not want shadow magic at all. But definitively an up rises in shadow weave users in Thay. In the long run, Thay will start to invade there neighbouring nations, Mulhorand might stand on the top of there list. Aglarond I would say after that. It will be hard, but with the currency they are building up, and with a Shade alliance nothing is impossible.
Mushi 09-09-03, 03:55 PM	The Red wizards ally with the shades and try to take on Algarond,and The Simbul for that matter, after they invade Mulhorand. I sure never saw the alliance with the shades comeing and most Red wizards pee themselves when someone even mentions the Simbul, but anything is possible.
Cunning Linguist 09-09-03, 04:24 PM	The Red Wizards and Shades think alike. Those with magic should rule. As it is now, only Lord Shadow is more powerful then the Zulkirs. If all the Zulkirs went together.. oh my.. the shades would have a problem on there hands. I’m thinking, why should they NOT ally? Red Wizards have info from all of faerun with there enclaves. And the Shades want information more then anything else. Thay lies FAR away from where the Shades are doing there thing. And Tam and Larloch have a good dialog going, and Larloch and Lord Shadow must be old friends from back then. The Red Wizards have magic that the shades do not, and vica versa. (sure, the shades have more powerful, but the Red Wizards have more wizards researching things all the time, they must have a "more" magic then the Shades) I see a real strong alliance if they get together. The Red Wizards might be on the lesser part of the deal, but they will both profit. .
The Simbul 09-09-03, 05:42 PM	The Shades of Netheril could expect to gain about as much from an "alliance" with the Red Wizards, as Larloch could expect to gain from "alliance" with Volo. If the inept magelings to the East wielded a fraction of the Art that Telemont's bastards use to tidy their libraries, then perhaps the Thayans wouldn't have spent the better part of the past few centuries running from Aglarondan farmers and naked Rashemarr warriors. An unstable slave nation ruled by quarrelling half-wit wizards, each even less magically competent than the last is not a potent ally. Investing time into a nation that has just barely lifted itself from the fringes of bankruptcy and near collapse, by shamelessly reducing themselves to the role of wand peddlers and craftsman of children’s trinkets, it not by any means a particularly wise move of strategy. The eight "mighty" Zulkirs crawled and humbled themselves before one Witch-Queen of Aglarond, so that she might accept a treaty of non-aggression, despite the fact that they were clearly in the disadvantage. After emerging from Szass Tam's recent little episode with a certain (lets-leave-unnamed) Abyssal-Lord imprisoned beneath Eltabbar, and several decades of war debts for innumerable failed attempts to conquer even a fraction of their surrounding geography, it is a miracle that Thay still exists, but they are by far no where near as infamous, mighty, or fear-inspiring as they had once fancied themselves to be. Thay is "doing good" right now because inept Zulkir's apprentices are busy crafting wands and potions for the children of Sembian nobles, rather than acting as target practice for a certain silver-haired Sorceress. Thay is doing well because the Mercantile faction has defeated those of the Imperialist ideology in Thay’s political theatre. They aren’t squandering their money on hopeless wars, and Mystra benefits from their abundant production of magic items and their research into new spells. Little over a century ago a certain Goddess of Magic confronted one of her daughters in the Outer Planes, as that daughter was procuring the reagents for the spells she planned to use to rid Toril of the nation of Thay for good. Yet Mystra forbade her from directly confronting the Red Wizards in such a fashion of reckless revenge; Thus it would be wise for the Zulkirs not to give Mystra a reason to rescind whatever restraints she still has on her most unpredictable and magically proficient daughter.
Cunning Linguist 09-09-03, 06:35 PM	Yet.. with all these great words, you forget that Larloch The Great needed help from Szass Tam once, and he is even a greater power then Lord Shadow, what makes you think Lord Shadow does not need help like this? The Shades have lots of magic, no doubt, but the Red Wizards are by far the most powerful (well, next to Halruaa) magic users in Faerun. Lord Shadow is ONE super powerful guy yes, but the rest of the 12 princes are about the same level as the Zulkirs. Seeing you call yourself the Simbul, I understand that you are somewhat blind to the true power of Thay, but no nation could ever conquer it the Wizard Nation. It has by far a more powerful military then any two other nations combined. True, they do not all agree on how to conduct conquests, but if the borders of Thay are ever threatened, they all unite and fight as one. Lastly, I would quote Lords of Darkness, page 85, Motivations and Goals, 3 paragraph: "Others (of the shades) would prefer to ally with one or more magocracies such as Thayans in order to share arcane knowledge and divide the responsibilities of conquest. (And discarding these allies of convenience once victory is achieved, naturally)" I see it as totally natural that the Thayans would want to ally themselves for just the same reasons, and that they also would discard the alliance once they could see victory for themselves.
Dat' Big Dragon 09-09-03, 07:30 PM	Linguist would be correct on this one. Symbul, as a powerful sorceress and obviously blind to true power found in Thay, cannot understand the subtlity that is a wizard nation. Sure Thay mass produces magic trinkets, but if they can mass produce magic trinkets then they can certainly mass produce magic weapons and armor for a massive horde of undead that don't question their orders. March on my undead warriors! Let none survive! Plus the fact that Szas Tam ranges at about the Symbols area along with a couple of other Zulkirs. Now lets give it a think shell we. Shades + Szass Tam + Thay + Shade Empire + Larloch = dead Symbol and plenty of conquering. Looks tome like the Symbol doesn't stand a chance. I mean the Symbol is cool and all but, hey, there is just no way.
Gotrex 09-09-03, 08:33 PM	the simbul while you make a good point the one thing shade can gain from thay is a nice big legion of minions if for example shade wanted to invade Aglarond then why would they waste there own soliders when they can have the red wizards take the brunt of the casulties in exchange for them dealing with the simbul since the princes of shade are one of the only groups in faerun that could take on the chosen of mystra and win
Shemeska the Marauder 09-09-03, 08:46 PM	I can honestly see Thay and Shade not having an alliance, but a rivalry in the end. Larloch, by way of Zukir Szass Tam should have considerable sway over any dealings of Thay with Shade. And remember, while from the same culture and time period as one another, Larloch and Telamont were both Archwizards. The Archwizards were generally arrogant enough to not trust each other and view all of the others as rivals. Larloch is also a weave user, while Telamont is not. Larloch would more likely see Telamont as a threat and rival than as a potential ally. Just my opinion on the matter, but bah, its a silly prime world anyways, who cares about it all. More evil, more death, more petitioners bound for the Blood War and thus more profit for the Yugoloths...
LordHell 09-09-03, 08:49 PM	I think a lot of you completely under-estimate the Simbuls power. I read one particular book, where the Simbul, single handedly, destroyed an army of Arch-Mage shapeshifters (turned them all into mushrooms). There is a reason Elminster has a healthy respect for her, and Thay hasn't destroyed her after all this time. She also is one of the 7 sisters, and if she were in trouble (i.e facing larloch, shades, red wizards, etc) they would come to her aid. I'm fairly sure by this point - Mystra would step in, not wanting most of the most powerful casters in Faerun to wipe each other out.
Gotrex 09-09-03, 09:22 PM	As powerful as the chosen are the red wizards+prices of shade are more powerful (especialy telemont who is probably the most powerful arcane spell caster in the realms with a caster level of 35) though having said that its a close enough fight that the result would probably be hard to predict
The Simbul 09-09-03, 09:44 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Yet.. with all these great words, you forget that Larloch The Great needed help from Szass Tam once, and he is even a greater power then Lord Shadow, what makes you think Lord Shadow does not need help like this? It was Szass Tam who had sought out Larloch, not the other way around. The Shades have lots of magic, no doubt, but the Red Wizards are by far the most powerful (well, next to Halruaa) magic users in Faerun. Seeing you call yourself the Simbul, I understand that you are somewhat blind to the true power of Thay, but no nation could ever conquer the Wizard Nation. It has by far a more powerful military then any two other nations combined. The Shades survived Netheril and have preserved much of the Arcane Lore of their old Empire, as well as all of the Art they have developed and wielded since it's fall. Thay is a breakaway nation of Mulhorandi Wizards who didnt wish to share power with the Pharoah. The overwhelming majority of Thayan spellcasters are apprentices whom each will be taught only enough magic to be useful to their masters, but never to challenge them. In turn they will teach their apprentices even less magic, so they will never prove to be a challenge to their masters. The end result is the vast majority of Thayan Wizards are little more than fodder for poorly planned conquests, XP batteries for crafting magic items, or a handy sacrifice to test a new ritual spell. The few who manage to surpass all of these obstacles eventually may find themselves in a Zulkirship. Of the 8 Zulkirs of Thay, only half of of them (Szass Tam, Aznar Thrul, Druxus Rhymm, and Nevron) actually amount to any degree of a competent threat to anyone outside of Thay. It bears noting that prior to 3rd edition, and the advent of ability score increases, one of the Zulkirs (Lallara Mediocros) couldn't even cast 9th level spells because her Intelligence score was too low!!!...and these are supposed to be Thay's the cream of the crop?:rolleyes: In the four centuries since Thay decreed independence from Mulhorand, exactly what have they managed to accomplish? Certainly their armies have entertained Rashemen's Warriors with every miserably planned invasion troupe that managed to cross the Gorge of Gauros. Thay's "military" is in effect a combination of slaves (over 60% of the nations populace), mercenaries, magical constructs, undead, summoned creatures, and spell twisted mind slaves. All of which are far more easily magically dealt with than any nation that has an army bound by loyalty and devotion to their country. Moreover; Slaves, Mercenaries, and mind-controlled foot soldiers can easily be turned back upon their masters by the same methods used to compel them into battle. Undead, Constructs, Summoned Monsters, and other beings whose life and loyalty revolve upon the enchantments that hold them to their task, are even more easily dealt with. If Thay's army is indeed so mighty, then I fail to see why they cannot accheive much with those said forces; other than pushing up daisies in the plains of Rashemen, or littering the Umber marshes with their corpses. True, they do not all agree on how to conduct conquests, but if the borders of Thay are ever threatened, they all unite and fight as one. That can be said about any nation, in fact that is the point of having a nation in the first place. If they couldnt defend themselves one would imagine they would have been dealt with a long time ago. Thayans function fine within their borders, but defending one's borders isnt what we are discussing here. Lastly, I would quote Lords of Darkness, page 85, Motivations and Goals, 3 paragraph: "Others (of the shades) would prefer to ally with one or more magocracies such as Thayans in order to share arcane knowledge and divide the responsibilities of conquest. (And discarding these allies of convenience once victory is achieved, naturally)" I see it as totally natural that the Thayans would want to ally themselves for just the same reasons, and that they also would discard the alliance once they could see victory for themselves. It is infinitely more likely that lady luck (no not Tymora) would not be on the Thayan's side, and they would not be victorious, nor would they be the ones to ditch the alliance first. The Thayans need the Shades because they are vulnerable, and desperately trying to reconstituite their former power and glory. The Shades have had several millenia in the Plane of Shadow to reconstituite themselves since the folly of Karsus. The Shades need the Red Wizards in the same respect that a level 30 warrior who enters a new town needs a 1st level commoner to Guide him to the nearest inn. The Shades are rather new to the current era in realms history, and need someone to play the guide. But chances are the Red Wizards would soon wear out their usefulness before the Shades wore out theirs. It bears noting that Mystra foresaw the eventual rise of a Magocracy in the Unnaproachable East, and knew it would be corrupt one prone to militancy, imperialism, and abuse of the Art. Hence the reason she has sought to isolate them throughout the centuries. The place-magic of the Witches of Rashemen was Mystra's doing, so that they could forever defend their homeland from the ambitions of the Red Wizards. She also placed one of her daughters (the Simbul) in the care of the Witches when she was an infant, and later in life guided Alassra to Aglarond, where she could serve as yet another thorn in the side of Thayan expansionists. Meanwhile still allowing the Researcher and Mercantile factions in Thayan society to influence their brethren, and drive them away from endless plots of war and expansion, and instead into devoting their time to perfect their art, and in the process be a boon to Mystra and the Weave. originally posted by Dat' Big Dragon Shades + Szass Tam + Thay + Shade Empire + Larloch = dead Symbol and plenty of conquering. Looks tome like the Symbol doesn't stand a chance. I mean the Symbol is cool and all but, hey, there is just no way. Sorry but Larloch didn't survive the fall of Netheril to be a sidekick henchman to red-robed infants, who just learned spells he has known for several millenia. He is also far more loyal to Mystra since she is lenient in his use of the Weave, and allows him to emulate many of the dweomers and magical effects he enjoyed in the pre-Karsus era. Since your entourage involves an alliance between the followers of Shar, the Empire of Shade, and the hack-magocracy of Thay, then I think I have a better scenario to defend Aglarond, the Eastern portion of Faerun, and to keep the Shadow Weave sufficiently contained: The Simbul, Elminster, Srinshee, Khelben, Laeral, Alustriel, Storm, Sylune, Dove, Qilue, Noumea, Talatha Vaervoree, Aglarond, Rashemen, Thesk, The Great Dale, Impiliur, Lady Yhelbruna and the Witches of Rashemen, Vandergast and the War Wizards of Cormyr, Halaster, the Knights of Mythdrannor, The Harpers, The Moonstars, The Lords Alliance, The Silver Marshes, Cormyr, Waterdeep, Shadowdale, Hallurra, Elves of Evermeet (to settle the score with the Shades post fall of Everska, and to protect the Yuirwood), and the free nations of the Sea of Fallen Stars. And of course the clergy of Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Selune, Chauntea, and everyone who ever got ripped off at their local Thayan Enclave when Sunday's Sale paper said Wands of Prestignation were 6.99 but then rang up for 0.02 higher at the cash register when it came time to check out and it's "THE SIMBUL" :behold: :behold: :behold: :P originally posted by Gotrex: if for example shade wanted to invade Aglarond then why would they waste there own soliders when they can have the red wizards take the brunt of the casulties in exchange for them dealing with the simbul since the princes of shade are one of the only groups in faerun that could take on the chosen of mystra and win Interesting point, and yes it does make sense for the Shades to take that approach. Of course the last sentence is highly contestable, since their ability to take on the Chosen had far more to do with the fact that Elminster and The Simbul were not present during much of RoTAW. After reading Elminster in Hell, I certainly would not want to be Shade that has to pick a fight with the Simbul in a novel (even if Troy "lets-make-Laeral-look-like-a-putz" Denning is the author)
Drizzt2Cool yes 09-09-03, 09:47 PM	You Forget The Simbul has a caster level of 35 as well plus other extra nifity abilities Sor20/Wiz10/Acm5
The Simbul 09-09-03, 09:53 PM	actually no, technically her Caster Level is either 22 or 10, depending on which class she is casting spells from. Sorcerer and Wizard levels do no stack for purposes of determining effective caster level, although the only reason they multi-classed her in 3.0 is because that was the best way to min/max her under the pre-Epic Level handbook rules. When the ELH came out she was effectively screwed because the ELH had the mechanics that allowed caster levels to exceed 20 without resorting to PrC's. In the case of Telemont, he was also min/maxed, although his levels are pretty stale and dont reflect much of a character rather than an effective class/level-block. Most of the people on the board who have posted Custom versions of iconic NPC's use a Sor30/Acm2 build for the Simbul. Although it does bear noting that she is the ONLY listed arcane spellcaster who has Epic Spellcasting, which mildly makes up for the poor and un-called for multiclassing in her character build (she was always a straight-shooting single classed arcane caster in AD&D, unlike most of her sisters) And yes her Supernatural Abilities (Shapechange, Protection from Spells, Protection from Evil, Detect Magic, permanent effects of a Ring of Protection and an Amulet of Proof Against Detection/Location) should give her a hefty + to her Challenge rating, but apparently they do not. Being able to Shapechange into Chain Lightning as a natural ability isnt exactly something that can be covered by a Feat. Although I am not sure if Halaster or Larloch's unique abilities enhance their CR either...
Gotrex 09-09-03, 10:07 PM	good point though shade effectivly didnt have there main person either - telemont (he was to busy holding the mythallar together and only thing he did was block a bolt o silver fire from one of the chosen) and yeh the simbuls stats are kinda screwed i dont ike going on stats really and only reason i said about caster level is it sounds better than me just coming out and saying "telemont is the most powerful caster" though this is purely an opinion if we disregard game rules for a moment i think telemont is more powerful as a caster then the simbul or elminster because of his netherese origins he has cast 10th and 11th level spells before which means he probably finds 9th level spells really rather simple were as the simbul or elminster regard 9th level as rather complex (im not trying to say the simbul and elminster are dumb or even less intelligent than telemont its just that they probably find spells more complex simply for the reason of never experiencing anything higher) theres the age gap (telemont is over 2800 years old) which gives telemont extra experience and while im disregarding games rules at the moment in a spell battle the shadow weave is current more powerful than the weave because weave users have not yet really found a way to properly defend against it
The Lone Sorcerer 09-09-03, 10:34 PM	Originally posted by LordHell I think a lot of you completely under-estimate the Simbuls power. I read one particular book, where the Simbul, single handedly, destroyed an army of Arch-Mage shapeshifters (turned them all into mushrooms). There is a reason Elminster has a healthy respect for her, and Thay hasn't destroyed her after all this time. She also is one of the 7 sisters, and if she were in trouble (i.e facing larloch, shades, red wizards, etc) they would come to her aid. I'm fairly sure by this point - Mystra would step in, not wanting most of the most powerful casters in Faerun to wipe each other out. okay but in return of the archwizards the princes and chosen were on pretty even terms although yes i believe the Simbul and Elminster were not present at this battle. But the chosen got smacked around pretty good plus both sides have to restrain them selves and avoid opening planar rifts everywheres. Also i'm in full agreement with gotrexes statements on this matter.
Charles Phipps 09-09-03, 10:55 PM	I view the Netherese as hyper racists. At present they have three goals on their mind.... A:) Recruit Harruula A Netherese nation they'll be happy to remake in the image of the Shadow Weave with them as their master B:) Kill the Chosen of Mystra Obvious reasons, ditto harpers C:) Recruit any other Netherese survivors D:) Recover the Karlestone E:) Transform the entire north into one gigantic paradise and reduce the rest to ash F:) Kill all the phaerimm Thay is a nation they won't feel kinship too anymore than the followers of Cyric who are ALSO treacherous !(@*@ but the enemy. They will use them but they aren't Netherse and The Netherese arn't Mulhorandi stock
The Simbul 09-09-03, 11:27 PM	Originally posted by Gotrex good point though shade effectivly didnt have there main person either - telemont (he was to busy holding the mythallar together and only thing he did was block a bolt o silver fire from one of the chosen) and yeh the simbuls stats are kinda screwed i dont ike going on stats really and only reason i said about caster level is it sounds better than me just coming out and saying "telemont is the most powerful caster" though this is purely an opinion if we disregard game rules for a moment i think telemont is more powerful as a caster then the simbul or elminster because of his netherese origins he has cast 10th and 11th level spells before which means he probably finds 9th level spells really rather simple were as the simbul or elminster regard 9th level as rather complex (im not trying to say the simbul and elminster are dumb or even less intelligent than telemont its just that they probably find spells more complex simply for the reason of never experiencing anything higher) theres the age gap (telemont is over 2800 years old) which gives telemont extra experience and while im disregarding games rules at the moment in a spell battle the shadow weave is current more powerful than the weave because weave users have not yet really found a way to properly defend against it I also agree that Telemont is a more potent spellcaster from a statistical and lore perspective for all the above mentioned reasons, and I actually like the idea of the biggest of the bad-***** spellcasters being on the villains side of the fence. From a statistical point of view The Simbul would give him more of a run for his money if she were single-classed as she was in 2nd edition. From the Novels/Literary angle it would be an interesting battle between the more potent of the Chosen and the Shades, although it is unlikely to happen, and how it would play out would largely tend to depend on who is actually writing it. As far as the Shadow Weave is concerned, I dont really see much of an advantage aside from the ability to cast in Dead Magic Zones. Dead Magic zones are effectively only injuries and wounds in Mystra's Weave, which she could easily repair (even temporarily) in dire circumstances without much thought, and without involving herself too much in such a confrontation. Since the Shadow Weave (supposedly) cannot directly effect the Weave itself, then it is highly inconcievable that an artificial Dead Magic Zone could be created or utilized in a spellbattle, although a Shymmaryn (spelling?) that was aqquired could be employed. Even in such extreme circumstances, the Chosen can detect Dead Magic areas within 90 feet, and can permanently negate them with Silverfire (which tends to be used quite often in the novels, even though it technically can only be unleashed once per hour).
Duskblade 09-10-03, 06:17 AM	Originally posted by Gotrex theres the age gap (telemont is over 2800 years old) which gives telemont extra experience Telamont isn't 2800 years old. Karsus was born in 3163NY (Netheril Years) wich starts the Shadowed Age in Netherils history and coresponds to -696DR, so Karsus is 2068 years old in 1372DR. Therefor Telamont would be about 2000 years old.
Cunning Linguist 09-10-03, 06:55 AM	It is infinitely more likely that lady luck (no not Tymora) would not be on the Thayan's side, and they would not be victorious, nor would they be the ones to ditch the alliance first. Perhaps, but it does not really matter. Thayans would agree to an alliance, if the shades proposed it, and like LoD tells us, they are willing to do it. The Red Wizards have about 1000 Red Wizards, and about 5000 apprentices (from level 1 - 9) The Shades have 1000 archenists. So the Red Wizards have the numbers, if not the pure level. Then again, the Shades need an alliance with someone. Or the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, The Cult, Halruaa, The mind flayers, the Drow, the Beholders, the Pharimms or someone else will get together, and take them down. The Shades are really powerful, (the most powerful organization I would say) but they are not three times as powerful as any other evil organization in Faerun.
Triton 09-10-03, 08:49 AM	I think if the Simbul was seriously threatened she would switch to guerilla warfare to allow her people to escape. The nbe prepared for her rage. The Simbul, El, and many other powerful mages would pounce. Remember Cormyr, the Dales, Waterdeep, Evereska, the Bedine, the Northern Dwarves, and the Silver Marches all have a beef with Shade. Mulharandi, Rasheman, and Aglarond all would love an opportunity to unite to destroy the threat of Thay. Imagine Mulharandi signing a quick treaty with Messemprar and taking the southern tharches of Thay. Thay and Shade both have limited allies and resources and could qiuckly find themselves overrun if they over extend these resources.:smirk:
PEDROW 09-10-03, 08:56 AM	money money money -
Gotrex 09-10-03, 01:08 PM	i disagree triton maybe its just me but the simbul always comes across to me as very bull headed and seems to favor the full frontal assault over anything else
Triton 09-10-03, 03:02 PM	I think you are right gortex. The Simbul is the type to go into a room and unleash spell after spell and then claw still living enemies with bloody nails and still be looking for more enemies. I think El would teleport her out and make her heal and start again the next morning. Hey one other point! What about the Creator Race lizardmen (Detailed in Dragon 303)? If they are awakening the Citadel in Thay should be infested with the creatures. How would Thay respond to this new threat from their supposed stronghold?
Mushi 09-10-03, 03:11 PM	OK people, this thread is about the future of Thay, not The Symbul or anything else. I bet if anything the Red Wizards won't get a alliance with the shades because the shades will seek more powerful allys. The Symbul brings up a good point when shes points out that Thays wizards aren't really all that they're cracked up to be. I'd even go so far as to say that Thay is one of the least powerful Mage nations in Faerun, since they have managed to lose almost every war they've started. Chances are Thays borders will stay the same they always have been, but I see them focusing on becoming a powerful merchent empire, and slowely but surely turning in to a nation like Amm only with a little more magic. The Red Wizards are my favorite evil wizards, I even play as one from time to time, but they certainly aren't much of a threat these days since they have more to lose by violent measures then to gain, folks these days aren't even scared of them anymore. As it looks now future Red Wizards will be much more tame, and even freindly.
Rek0 09-10-03, 04:27 PM	hey dont forget, shade controls all of the blue dragons in arauroch i think thay will ally with the shades ( who are obviously seeking allies, even if only do have them as minions ) and will end up being allied with the Zhentarim, who are desparate for power ( if uve read realms of shadow u will know what I mean) obliously if there is an alliance between these three, there will be nurmerous secrets, lies and acts of betrayal, but the alliance itself will remain intact due to mutual benifet (dont think any of these organizations would care for more enimes either) i dont really think dureger, drow mind flayers beholders or larloch will have much of a problem with the nations of humans and elves being assaulted and or destroyed, as long as it does not interfere with their personal goals
Triton 09-10-03, 05:05 PM	Thay needs to achieve a military victory in order to reestablish dominance. Aglarond is the obvious choice, but the Simbul as stopped every attempt. Thesk is another obvious choice. Some others are Threskel along with a merger with Messemprar allowing one of it's mages to become the tharch.Rashemen is a poor option, it is well defended and has little or no long term value. It's magic can be stolen without occupying the territory. Another option is an Underdark city. I have not seen publication on any. Imagine the Red Wizards controlling a drow, duergar, or other Underdark city. The Red Wizards will need help either from Chessantan mercenaries, a reawaken creator race, Endless waste nomads, shauhagin from the Alambar, southern orcs of the Sunrise mountains, Shade, or drow. I say this due to the fact that they have failed alone. Thay as a mercantile power is a joke.
Cunning Linguist 09-10-03, 05:50 PM	Triton, you forget the most obvious choice of them all, Mulhorand. Thay has hated this nation since they broke free of it. Aglarond and Thesk come far behind this place. This is there motherland, there homeland, witch they must free from the grasps of the God-Kings. Not to think about all the armies Mulhorand have seen fallen trying to retake Thay.
Gellion 09-10-03, 05:56 PM	The Red Wizards will become like a magical Wal-Mart for Faerun.:D
Triton 09-10-03, 06:16 PM	Maybe Thay will use the Tuigan, orcs, and Unther to coordinate an attack on Mulhurandi and divy the spoils. Masks thieves may be interested in the outcome of this.:smirk:
Mushi 09-11-03, 02:42 PM	I think that Thay would have learned by now that they can win through trade what they could not win through war. The Thayan enclaves are the best thing that ever happened to Thay, the enclaves bring in a stable supply of gold which equals power. The enclaves are a good way for Thay to get gold and thus power without causing exspensive wars in which Thay usually loses and ends up comeng out worse for it
Cunning Linguist 09-11-03, 03:53 PM	Now, everyone should see that you can't judge past defeats on future conquests. Thay could do things it had never done before, like hire 100.000 armed men, to lead the attack. Then send a small army afterwards. They can bribe the local army.. They can bribe the local nobles.. They can bribe the local clerics.. And after all this bribing, they can send in a army to kill of whatever resistance is left. 2.ed told us that Thay was never going to organize and attack in one unit, but in 3.ed they have. Thay is organized, and can now attack and win quite a lot of battles.
Ozar 09-11-03, 04:43 PM	I only skimmed over the thread, did anyone bring up the fact that Thay has never been united in any of these unsuccessful excursions?
Cunning Linguist 09-11-03, 05:47 PM	I should have put that in my last post, but I never did.. But yes, Thay is united now, under Szass, unlike the times they have been defeated. That is also a good reason for Thay to win wars.
The Simbul 09-11-03, 07:39 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist But yes, Thay is united now, under Szass, unlike the times they have been defeated. That is also a good reason for Thay to win wars. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Cunning Linguist 09-12-03, 05:16 AM	wow.. good argument.. I clearly see that Thay is powerless now..
Mushi 09-12-03, 02:30 PM	Thay could be completely united, LOL. I don' think Szass has as good of a grip on Thay as many would think. In Thay there will always be some power hungry Red wizard willing to size the opportunity to gane power, even at Thays exspense. When Thay fights a war a Red wizard has about the same chance of getting killed by a rival Red wizard as a enemy, maybe even more of a chance. The fact is Red wizards are so self centered that they could care less about winning some war when they could instead put they're focus on increasing they'er status via murdering a rival Red wizard thats a little higher on the ladder. Red wizards use most of Thays awsome power on other Red wizards.
Fabius Maximus 09-13-03, 08:47 PM	First of all: Hi everyone. This is my first post after a long time of reading. Now, I'm going to join the lines of freaks ranting here. ;) I love these mind-games. IMHO, Thay will remain in it's present state for a time: Not one of the zulkirs does have full control, not even Szass Tam. But in the long run, he will depose of his internal opponents. The policy of spreading enclaves will be continued until Thay has the control over a certain number of more or less powerful nations or regions (bribes). Only then it will move by force. And there even does not have to be bloodshed. You need only a weak ruler (a puppet) who announces Thay as protector. The only question is: How long will the opposing organisations and nations watch this strategy enfolding? As for alliances: What would Thay get from an alliance with the Shades? Magical knowledge? I don't think so. Why would the shades share their unique knowledge with a puny nation of upstarting magelings (from the shade point of view)? Certainly not for intelligence. There are cheaper methods like employing the church of Shar. And Szass Tam knows that Thay would be the weaker part of this partnership. The most likely force Thay would seek an alliance with would IMHO be the Zhentarim. They are equally powerful but not really opponents, for they are interested in different regions. Okay, there are Thayan enclaves in the west, but these are spread rather thin. Thay could profit by admission in intelligence from the Black Network, while Zhent spies would have safe havens in the enclaves. Critical goods (magical items, weapons, slaves, etc.) could be traded with good conditions between them. Both partners could help each other against threats from their respective regions and the would share a common soon-to-be enemy: The Shades.
Pandelume 09-14-03, 05:48 PM	I can't see Larloch helping Szass Tam. Its Szass Tam that owes Larloch not the over way around and if Tam back out of deal with Larloch. I would not like to be in Tam shoes(what ever deal it is....). As for Larloch and the shades geting together I just can't see it happening. Larloch just does not share any of the goals of the Shades. Shades and Red Wizard geting together does not make much sense. What good would the RW be vs the Phaerimm and reclaiming lands that where Netheril. The Shades I think would do better contacting the Drow to help them fight the Phaerimm, but thats not very likely...
Plectrum 09-15-03, 07:38 AM	Personally i think Thay should attack the Enless Wastes over the Sunrise Mountains as they could easily controll the lands north of the Copper mountains at least to the lake of mists this would also allow them to tax anyone wanting to use the golden way to get to Kara-Tur loads of money taxing the silk etc caravans.
Mushi 09-15-03, 02:27 PM	Hmm... the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards allied sounds like a force that might just be able to accomplish something major, like maybe actually winning a war.