Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ywhtptgtfo 03-23-08, 10:11 PM	The following is a (far-from comprehensive) list of important NPC's who are slaughtered by WotC/Hasbro due to their magnificent plan for 4th edition. Feel free to add to it. Heavy spoilers from Unclean, Undead, Sacrifice of the Widow, Storm of the Dead, Blackstaff, Last Mythal trilogy, GHotR, and 4th edition previews below: R-I-P: Mystra, fellows, and Chosens: - Mystra, Savras, Khelben, Sylune Drow pantheon and drows: - Kiransalee, Selvatarm, Vhaeraun Red Wizards: - Mythrell'aa, Druxus Thym, Aznar Thrul, Yaphyll, Dmitra Flass Cormyr: - Alusair, Filfaeril, Azoun V, Myrmeen Dales, Swordcoast: - Mayor of Shadowdale, Piergeiron, Mirt, Duran, Nasher, Halaster Halruaa: - King Zalathorm, Queen Ketura, Tzigone, Matteo, and everyone Other Villains: - Daemonfey, Sculla Darkhope, [some lich in Twisted Runes] [Will add to it when I have more time] --------------------------------------------------------------------- We lost a majority of Realm-defining NPC's eh?
rettekram 03-23-08, 10:46 PM	Guess that means we have room for some new characters to mix things up a bit. I for one think the change is good. It won't mess with anyone's current story line or gaming campaign since it all happens far in the future and I'm pretty sure WotC has put out so much FR game supplements that they've almost written themselves out of a job. Now they have the freedom to pursue new content and new ideas without being held back by preexisting material. Honestly, most these NPCs have been around since 2nd edition. We need some new blood in the Realms imo.
selunatic2397 03-23-08, 11:54 PM	My Players have wasted the daemonfey when they made their first appearence in the Hellsgate keep module...made it pretty hard to keep a straight face when they show up as big bads many years later in canon. Why do they put stuff in modules if they ignore the fact that every DM's players will basically kill them and take their stuff? I mean, at least write in something bad happening to them if they show up in CANON years later without a scratch... Some of the NPC's probably have been dead for quite some time in many a DM's campaigns, making it kinda hard to say goodbye to them now.
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 12:25 AM	Heavy spoilers from Unclean, Undead, Sacrifice of the Widow, Storm of the Dead, Blackstaff, Last Mythal trilogy, GHotR, and 4th edition previews below -The Last Mythal trilogy, and Blackstaff are unrelated to the 4e transitions.
Rauric 03-24-08, 01:33 AM	Goodbye. Two years ago I would be upset. Recent events have let me cope with your dimissal.
Rauric 03-24-08, 01:36 AM	My Players have wasted the daemonfey when they made their first appearence in the Hellsgate keep module...made it pretty hard to keep a straight face when they show up as big bads many years later in canon. Why do they put stuff in modules if they ignore the fact that every DM's players will basically kill them and take their stuff? I mean, at least write in something bad happening to them if they show up in CANON years later without a scratch... Some of the NPC's probably have been dead for quite some time in many a DM's campaigns, making it kinda hard to say goodbye to them now. That is your job as a DM. You should realize this now since you are still playing 1E. Figure out how to DM properly.;)
ywhtptgtfo 03-24-08, 02:04 AM	-The Last Mythal trilogy, and Blackstaff are unrelated to the 4e transitions. Myth Drannor and Miyeritar are making their returns in 4e. If that doesn't convince you, think of the 100-year jump and how this fits with WotC's mad grave-digging towards the end of 3.5e (Imaskar, Netheril, Miyeritar, Myth Drannor, and Myth Glaurach).
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 02:05 AM	Myth Drannor and Miyeritar are making their returns in 4e. -No, and no. Both the Last Mythal Trilgogy, and Blackstaff are unrelated to the 4e Transition.
sfdragon 03-24-08, 06:06 AM	thunderspells from silverymoon obould manyarrows. emerus warcrown king of wherever that ingrate from the other dwarfhold. King Bruenor BAttlehammer 8th and 10th king of the hall( if he aint dead, he will be soon, or im a bearded gnome) CAttie-brie oh nasher, we wont miss you, and we havent forgiven you over that inceident with aribeth, not that we will miss her either. rott in pieces dirtbag wulfgar son of brongar, rest in peace know that warriors rest has called you home. everybody else: we hardly knew you
Diffan 03-24-08, 08:11 AM	So has there been confirmation of a 100 year time jump or is this just more useless speculation? I'm assuming the former considering the number of very much alive NPCs listed above as per the GHotR source.
Khaelieth 03-24-08, 09:23 AM	My Players have wasted the daemonfey when they made their first appearence in the Hellsgate keep module...made it pretty hard to keep a straight face when they show up as big bads many years later in canon. Why do they put stuff in modules if they ignore the fact that every DM's players will basically kill them and take their stuff? I mean, at least write in something bad happening to them if they show up in CANON years later without a scratch... Some of the NPC's probably have been dead for quite some time in many a DM's campaigns, making it kinda hard to say goodbye to them now. Well, then they shouldn't show up, imo=) Tbh, i loved things like that. The ones i miss the most's actually the daemonfey. When i realised they got massacred, i decided that it wasn't gonna take place in my game!
18DELTA 03-24-08, 11:22 AM	So has there been confirmation of a 100 year time jump or is this just more useless speculation? I'm assuming the former considering the number of very much alive NPCs listed above as per the GHotR source. -1479DR The Year of the Ageless One. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a):rolleyes: 1375DR to 1479DR= 104 years. 1385DR to 1479DR= 96 years. ;)
selunatic2397 03-24-08, 12:27 PM	That is your job as a DM. You should realize this now since you are still playing 1E. Figure out how to DM properly.;) I was implying that the devs have a bad habit of having villians show up having been plucked from an older module and reused without having any ill effects of any pc group. This, to me, might be a source of the gripes about all the uber npc's that pop up in anti-realms grumbles. The devs usually seem to ignore writing in a random band of heroes and just drop in someone from the npc files. Rather than just imply that a uber npc handled it, might it be better to have a one shot made up adventurer band do some harm to the recycled villain? This way no one can rant about how players have no impact on the realms since it will be handled by the hit flavor of the current fave novel. Plus since the title of the thread was saying goodbye to realms npc's, and my comment was how many a DM has wasted the npc's long ago and how it might be a bit hard to say goodbye to them... Just what Rauric, does my post and your answer have to do with my ability to DM properly? :confused:
Daenaan 03-24-08, 12:45 PM	-No, and no. Both the Last Mythal Trilgogy, and Blackstaff are unrelated to the 4e Transition. Frankly, this is just a bizarre thing to say. These detail events immediately preceding the Spellplague and include major events that will resonate into the new 4E world. Call them "pre-transition RSEs" or whatever floats your boat, but a revitalized Myth Drannor and Miyeritar will be seen in some form in the 4e version of FR. That's hardly "unrelated", considering that the only game world those events truly affect will be the 4E world.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 12:54 PM	Frankly, this is just a bizarre thing to say. These detail events immediately preceding the Spellplague and include major events that will resonate into the new 4E world. That applies to...a lot of other pre-4E events, though. Ultimately, it's hard to tell which NPCs were killed off in "the big plan for the 4E Realms" and which ones, well, weren't. Some might have died because the designers felt certain NPCs were too "hardy" (ie. the perception that there are too many high-level NPCs, and they are too powerful and everlasting, blah blah blah). By the way, the plural of "drow" is "drow", not "drows".
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 12:55 PM	So has there been confirmation of a 100 year time jump or is this just more useless speculation? I'm assuming the former considering the number of very much alive NPCs listed above as per the GHotR source. -Haven't you read any of the online DRAGON articles that have been released? Frankly, this is just a bizarre thing to say. These detail events immediately preceding the Spellplague and include major events that will resonate into the new 4E world. Call them "pre-transition RSEs" or whatever floats your boat, but a revitalized Myth Drannor and Miyeritar will be seen in some form in the 4e version of FR. That's hardly "unrelated", considering that the only game world those events truly affect will be the 4E world. -Forsaken House, the first book in the trilogy, was released in August of 2004. The manuscript and "bible" for the entire trilogy, therefore would have been completeled before that. We were told by Rich Baker, and the other designers, that the brainstorming for 4e began two years ago from Summer 2007- Summer 2005. Thus, the ideas that are contained within the Last Mythal Trilogy predate the changes decided upon for the 4e transition. -The core story of Blackstaff has been built in to the setting for years. Khelben's actual name literally means, in Elven, ‘He whom Magic, Duty, and Honor Defines'. Since the characters inception, Khelben has been fated to perform some mysterious, but important action. In Blackstaff, this finally came to be, and he subsequently passed on to Arvandor while casting Elven High Magic, a phenominon that regularly happens to the center of a Selu'Taar circle. So, these ideas, predate 4e, as well as 3e. -Furthermore, concerning Myth Drannor and Miyeritar, we have no information about either. Myth Drannor was recently taken back into Elven hands, and we know that, as per 1380 DR, Ilsevele Miritar is the Coronal, wielding the Crownblade. Nowehere else do we have information about it. Thus, there is no guarantee that it will survive as we last saw it. Miyeritar hasn't existed in thousands of years. A single Miyeritari city has been brought back, the City of Hope, but again, we have no guarantee that it will survive as we last saw it into 4e.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 12:58 PM	Yeah, no offense Diffan, but the 100 year time jump has been confirmed for, what, over a month now?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 01:06 PM	--The core story of Blackstaff has been built in to the setting for years. Khelben's actual name literally means, in Elven, ‘He whom Magic, Duty, and Honor Defines'. Since the characters inception, Khelben has been fated to perform some mysterious, but important action. In Blackstaff, this finally came to be, and he subsequently passed on to Arvandor while casting Elven High Magic, a phenominon that regularly happens to the center of a Selu'Taar circle. So, these ideas, predate 4e, as well as 3e. Agreed...however, I would also like to point out that Steven Schend has said (on Candlekeep) that "killing off" Blackstaff was not his idea--his death was called for by WotC. So while it's true that his death has nothing to do with the transition to 4E, it also was not a given that the character needed to die, even though it turned out that there was a great story made out of it. My personal theory is that WotC wanted to show people (specificaly the Chosen-haters) that these characters are not "immortal" (in the out-of-setting sense); they wouldn't do such a thing with Elminster because he is, like Drizzt, a "cash cow".
Daenaan 03-24-08, 01:29 PM	-Forsaken House, the first book in the trilogy, was released in August of 2004. The manuscript and "bible" for the entire trilogy, therefore would have been completeled before that. We were told by Rich Baker, and the other designers, that the brainstorming for 4e began two years ago from Summer 2007- Summer 2005. Thus, the ideas that are contained within the Last Mythal Trilogy predate the changes decided upon for the 4e transition. And you think they haven't been planning 4E since 2004? Please. -The core story of Blackstaff has been built in to the setting for years. Khelben's actual name literally means, in Elven, ‘He whom Magic, Duty, and Honor Defines'. Since the characters inception, Khelben has been fated to perform some mysterious, but important action. In Blackstaff, this finally came to be, and he subsequently passed on to Arvandor while casting Elven High Magic, a phenominon that regularly happens to the center of a Selu'Taar circle. So, these ideas, predate 4e, as well as 3e. And this is all pretty much from Blackstaff, isn't it? Pretty much doesn't affect anything except for the future (except as a number of really ham-handed retcon/add-ins). Furthermore, Khelben wasn't slated to die until this book. Call it "pre-4E cleaning up of NPCs" or whatever, but don't keep insisting that it's unrelated to 4E. They've had quite a lot of these changes in mind for years - if not all of them - and to think otherwise is simply naive. -Furthermore, concerning Myth Drannor and Miyeritar, we have no information about either. Myth Drannor was recently taken back into Elven hands, and we know that, as per 1380 DR, Ilsevele Miritar is the Coronal, wielding the Crownblade. Nowehere else do we have information about it. Thus, there is no guarantee that it will survive as we last saw it. Miyeritar hasn't existed in thousands of years. A single Miyeritari city has been brought back, the City of Hope, but again, we have no guarantee that it will survive as we last saw it into 4e. That's because the ONLY game world that will show a renewed Miyeritar and a revitalized Myth Drannor will be in 4E. Show me a new sourcebook for either, in 3.5E, and your "unrelated to 4E" comment would actually hold a little weight. Every single change you've mentioned above - it's simply prep for 4E, getting items and situations in place before their magic apocalypse, nothing more.
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 01:34 PM	And you think they haven't been planning 4E since 2004? Please. -Yes. There is no reason to believe otherwise, especially when we have been told by multiple designers when planning began. Why would they all randomly be lying? And this is all pretty much from Blackstaff, isn't it? -No. Sources vary all over 2e and other 3e products. They've had quite a lot of these changes in mind for years - if not all of them - and to think otherwise is simply naive. -Is it being naive, or is thinking logically with all of the clues, information and facts we have been given, as believing anything else is ascribing to a massive conspiracy theory? That's because the ONLY game world that will show a renewed Miyeritar and a revitalized Myth Drannor will be in 4E. -3e has already displayed both. Show me a new sourcebook for either, in 3.5E, and your "unrelated to 4E" comment would actually hold a little weight. -Both were discussed in A Grand History of the Realms, and the reclaimation of Myth Drannor was a running article in DRAGON magazine, in which rebuilding and war efforts were discussed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 01:45 PM	And you think they haven't been planning 4E since 2004? Please. A 4E was inevitable. But the draft for the changes to the Realms setting began in earnest two years ago. At least, that's according to what the designers say. Maybe they aren't being truthful, but if that's the case we have no proof of that.
Diffan 03-24-08, 03:09 PM	Yeah, no offense Diffan, but the 100 year time jump has been confirmed for, what, over a month now? lol, yea i don't keep up with the Dragon articles and WoW is slowly consuming my life.
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 03:27 PM	lol, yea i don't keep up with the Dragon articles and WoW is slowly consuming my life. -Snap out of it, man!
Daenaan 03-24-08, 04:32 PM	-Yes. There is no reason to believe otherwise, especially when we have been told by multiple designers when planning began. Why would they all randomly be lying? "Lying" is too much of a stretch. However, there are reasons not to share all design plans with one's consumers. -No. Sources vary all over 2e and other 3e products. Uh huh. -Is it being naive, or is thinking logically with all of the clues, information and facts we have been given, as believing anything else is ascribing to a massive conspiracy theory? There's no conspiracy, there's just a business plan. No company in its right mind shares early planning with its consumers. By the time they announced 4E, I guarantee you that it was mostly mapped out. Completed and printed, no. But the overarching changes and the plan for the FR, you bet. -3e has already displayed both. Oh, and I suppose you can tell me where there are maps and content information, other than snippets (such as seen in GHotR) that are pretty much -exactly- the same as what one would find in novels? -Both were discussed in A Grand History of the Realms, and the reclaimation of Myth Drannor was a running article in DRAGON magazine, in which rebuilding and war efforts were discussed. Nothing there that hasn't been in the novels, really.
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 05:34 PM	"Lying" is too much of a stretch. However, there are reasons not to share all design plans with one's consumers. There's no conspiracy, there's just a business plan. No company in its right mind shares early planning with its consumers. By the time they announced 4E, I guarantee you that it was mostly mapped out. Completed and printed, no. But the overarching changes and the plan for the FR, you bet. -Various designers have clearly said that planning for 4e began about two years ago (At the time, it was Fall 2007, so that would have been 2005). If this is not the case, why did they all say such a thing? Clearly saying something, and then it turns out that said statement is false, is a lie. Thus, they would be lying. -Fourth Edition was announced in Fall 2007. Afterwards, in their development journals, various developers have stated that, prior to the announcement, planning and developing had been going on for two years. This still places The Last Mythal trilogy out of the design loop. Oh, and I suppose you can tell me where there are maps and content information, other than snippets (such as seen in GHotR) that are pretty much -exactly- the same as what one would find in novels? -As I have already cited, AGHotR, and DRAGON Magazine. You seem to be missing the fact that the novels ended in 1374 DR, and the official date currently is 1375 DR, and that AGHotR gives us insight into ten years in the future, leaving us with 1385 DR. Nothing there that hasn't been in the novels, really. -All of the information in the DRAGON articles concerning Myth Drannor are wholly original, and does not take place in the novels, as they happen after the novels end.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 07:50 PM	lol, yea i don't keep up with the Dragon articles and WoW is slowly consuming my life. Ah, so WoW is the culprit here. :-p
Diffan 03-25-08, 01:48 AM	Ah, so WoW is the culprit here. :-p Yea, I blame WoW for all of humanities struggles. :D
Daenaan 03-25-08, 05:02 AM	-Various designers have clearly said that planning for 4e began about two years ago (At the time, it was Fall 2007, so that would have been 2005). If this is not the case, why did they all say such a thing? Clearly saying something, and then it turns out that said statement is false, is a lie. Thus, they would be lying. Believing everything a company says, eh? Yeah, okay. -Fourth Edition was announced in Fall 2007. Afterwards, in their development journals, various developers have stated that, prior to the announcement, planning and developing had been going on for two years. This still places The Last Mythal trilogy out of the design loop. No WotC novel is ever out of the "design loop". -As I have already cited, AGHotR, and DRAGON Magazine. You seem to be missing the fact that the novels ended in 1374 DR, and the official date currently is 1375 DR, and that AGHotR gives us insight into ten years in the future, leaving us with 1385 DR. You're using the word "source" in an extremely liberal way. GHotR is in no way a "source". It's a listing of things that have happened in sources, or in the case of some things in 1375-1385 - things that were well-planned and then officially announced here on gleemax. Also, DRAGON isn't a source in the classic sense (a novel, or a sourcebook). There are many, many things in DRAGON that are not considered to be canon, and there are lengthy debates about what is and isn't canon over at sites like Candlekeep. Which articles, specifically, and in which issues?
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 09:44 AM	Believing everything a company says, eh? Yeah, okay. -And believing that various designers lied for nefarious reasons is silly. If the designers lie when it suits them, and their word cannot be taken without a grain of salt, why bother to ask them questions? Why did you, if you believe this? No WotC novel is ever out of the "design loop". -The Last Mythal trilogy was written before development for 4e came into being. You're using the word "source" in an extremely liberal way. GHotR is in no way a "source". It's a listing of things that have happened in sources, or in the case of some things in 1375-1385 - things that were well-planned and then officially announced here on gleemax. Also, DRAGON isn't a source in the classic sense (a novel, or a sourcebook). There are many, many things in DRAGON that are not considered to be canon, and there are lengthy debates about what is and isn't canon over at sites like Candlekeep. Which articles, specifically, and in which issues? -Both AGHotR and DRAGON Magazine are sources for Forgotten Realms canon, whether you consider them to be or not. AGHotR contains revelations revealed nowhere else, making it a source (none of which was "well-planned and then officially announced here on gleemax". DRAGON Magazine contains information revealed nowhere else, making it a source. -Furthermore, since the inception of 3e, and Paizo being granted the license for DRAGON and DUNGEON, all material within DRAGON Magazine, concerning the Forgotten Realms-related articles became official, meaning they were considered canon. All of the Volo's Guide to the Realms articles, which appeared in the later days of DRAGON Magazine, which included the detailed progress Myth Drannor was making in "cleaning up" after Elven Crusade reclaimed the ruins of the city, are canon. -The canon of the Forgotten Realms is clear. There is no ambiguity. I've never seen any lengthy discussions on what is considered canon and what is not considered canon, here, or on Candlekeep, in my many years of going to both.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-25-08, 01:23 PM	Indeed, everything published in Dragon is canon. Daenaan, I think you should relax a bit. LK isn't trying to be confrontational, and this issue isn't really worth arguing about (IMO).
Daenaan 03-25-08, 02:21 PM	-And believing that various designers lied for nefarious reasons is silly. If the designers lie when it suits them, and their word cannot be taken without a grain of salt, why bother to ask them questions? Why did you, if you believe this? I never said they were "nefarious reasons", but continuing to put words in my mouth is interesting. I simply said that there are reasons that a business or company would not share all of its future plans with customers. You're the one who tried to say that I'm suggesting a "conspiracy", or "nefarious reasons", when I've done nothing of the kind. (And if that's not confrontational, to the person who commented afterwards, then I'm not sure what is... just look at how LK has derailed this from talking about Blackstaff being "completely unrelated" into this). -Both AGHotR and DRAGON Magazine are sources for Forgotten Realms canon, whether you consider them to be or not. AGHotR contains revelations revealed nowhere else, making it a source (none of which was "well-planned and then officially announced here on gleemax". DRAGON Magazine contains information revealed nowhere else, making it a source. Uh huh, sure thing. GHotR is a summary from source materials, it's not a source itself. When pointing to a source for the Spellplague bits released so far, people point to the "Countdown to the Realms" pieces and the small things released so far in the Undead novel series and the most recent Drizzt novel.
Daenaan 03-25-08, 02:31 PM	Indeed, everything published in Dragon is canon. This is an arguable point - many say it is, many say that it isn't. There's "official" material, which means that it's made to fit with current rules, and then there's canon. Daenaan, I think you should relax a bit. LK isn't trying to be confrontational, and this issue isn't really worth arguing about (IMO). I'm perfectly relaxed, but be serious... LK is definitely being confrontational. He's tried to put words in my mouth, and he completely derailed this from the original issue: "is Blackstaff related to 4e?". Blackstaff is absolutely related to 4E, because it has massive changes in it that will resonate into the 4E world. It also fits with the designers' "pre-4E NPC cleanup" by killing off Khelben - a plot point that was only made in order to fit with 4E plans. This was admitted by the author himself, so there we are.
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 02:51 PM	I never said they were "nefarious reasons", but continuing to put words in my mouth is interesting. I simply said that there are reasons that a business or company would not share all of its future plans with customers. You're the one who tried to say that I'm suggesting a "conspiracy", or "nefarious reasons", when I've done nothing of the kind. -Why would they randomly lie, when specifically stating when development began, then? Richard Baker, and other designers specifically said in their design journals,circa October 2007, that development for Fourth Edition began two years ago, in 2005. They haven't lied in the past, to us, so why would they suddenly begin to now? Especially since that information was provided fully willingly, in design journals, not in a Ask-the-Author thread, where we provide our queries. That's silly. Uh huh, sure thing. GHotR is a summary from source materials, it's not a source itself. When pointing to a source for the Spellplague bits released so far, people point to the "Countdown to the Realms" pieces and the small things released so far in the Undead novel series and the most recent Drizzt novel. -For the second time now, the latter pages of AGHotR contain canon information that is listed nowhere else, thus making it a "source". This is an arguable point - many say it is, many say that it isn't. There's "official" material, which means that it's made to fit with current rules, and then there's canon. -All Forgotten Realms articles in Paizo's DRAGON magazine, and the current online incarnation of DRAGON magazine are official, and canon. DRAGON (Paizo) magazine's article on the Hordelands changed the official date of the setting from 1374 DR to 1375 DR.
Daenaan 03-25-08, 03:06 PM	-Why would they randomly lie, when specifically stating when development began, then? Richard Baker, and other designers specifically said in their design journals,circa October 2007, that development for Fourth Edition began two years ago, in 2005. They haven't lied in the past, to us, so why would they suddenly begin to now? Especially since that information was provided fully willingly, in design journals, not in a Ask-the-Author thread, where we provide our queries. That's silly. My goodness, you seem completely caught on this thing about "lying", which I've never said. Therefore, I will re-state (for the third time): there are reasons why a company will not share all of its future plans, all details of advance plans, with customers. That is not to suggest that a company is "lying" by doing so. But to limit the information "out" and allow people to draw their own conclusions about things unsaid... that's part of the wonderful world of marketing. In any case, it's more than clear that you're going to believe what you'll believe, whether it's about Blackstaff, or what's canon. So it's pretty much pointless trying to show you a different point of view.
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 03:17 PM	Therefore, I will re-state (for the third time): there are reasons why a company will not share all of its future plans, all details of advance plans, with customers. That is not to suggest that a company is "lying" by doing so. But to limit the information "out" and allow people to draw their own conclusions about things unsaid... that's part of the wonderful world of marketing. -Various designers specifically stated that design for Fourth Edition began in 2005. If this is not true, and development began the day 3e was released, in 2000, then the designers are lying. That is the definition of lying- expressing an untruth. Now, I ask again: Why would these desgners specifically tell us when design began, on their own volition, if it was not true? They could have just as easily not said anything concerning when development on the system began. By not saying anything, there is no problem. By lying, they lose face. Why would they do this? So it's pretty much pointless trying to show you a different point of view. -Yes, obviously...:rolleyes: -I think I am going to bite my tongue, and not talk to you, either.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-26-08, 08:58 PM	Uh huh, sure thing. GHotR is a summary from source materials, it's not a source itself. When pointing to a source for the Spellplague bits released so far, people point to the "Countdown to the Realms" pieces and the small things released so far in the Undead novel series and the most recent Drizzt novel. The GHotR is a canon sourcebook. It's mostly old lore, but there's new lore in there too.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-26-08, 09:00 PM	This is an arguable point - many say it is, many say that it isn't. And the ones who say it isn't canon are wrong.;) There's "official" material, which means that it's made to fit with current rules, and then there's canon. In the case of Dragon magazine, they are one and the same. I'm perfectly relaxed, but be serious... LK is definitely being confrontational. He's tried to put words in my mouth, and he completely derailed this from the original issue: "is Blackstaff related to 4e?". Blackstaff is absolutely related to 4E, because it has massive changes in it that will resonate into the 4E world. It also fits with the designers' "pre-4E NPC cleanup" by killing off Khelben - a plot point that was only made in order to fit with 4E plans. This was admitted by the author himself, so there we are. So, on to a topic that's more interesting?:)