Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stevieman69 01-14-06, 08:29 AM	All right, here it is, I ‘am trying to make a campaign that involve an alien race with very powerful technology that they are to invade the world of Faerûn. The race I had in mind is similar to human but are base on a genetic cast system. There technology will be like earths’ but much farer in the future (starcraft, command and conjurer, starship troopers etc). I going to use the Dragonstar rulebooks because it is the easiest system to use for this kind of thing, plus I know it pretty well. But I need some idea, can a Red Dragon take on a battleship, will a machinegun kill a unicorn, can Waterdeep take a air strike, and can Elimister be destroy by a nuke?? Who will win? O’yeah this alien race will not be using magic, that why there trying to invading Faerun .
Blackheart 01-15-06, 06:43 PM	This post just made most of us cringe, and I'm sure Dan, Krash and some of the others either passed away from heart failure, *moment of silence* or are on oxygen right now. I'll humor you, though. I'm assuming you know the Dungeons & Dragons rules, which brings up the question of why you aren't using d20 Modern/Future to do this. The systems would be more balanced, I would think. As for your questions...not much survives a nuke, though if you have stats for a nuclear device, check it against spells Elminster has access to(i.e, look in all books.) He might just be able to evade that. Waterdeep, like any other city, can survive an airstrike, they just wont be in the shape they were. Don't forget that there are plenty of powerful people that call the City of Splendors their home that might have something to say about that. And...I could see Klauth doing some damage to a battleship, no doubt. Dragons aren't weak creatures. Sure, a cannon on a battleship could rip a dragon to shreds, but dragons aren't dumb, and they have spells, too. Spells+breath weapon+lots of natural attacks=hurt on the toys of humans. For the unicorn question...can a machine gun kill a horse? I mean...isn't that a bit of common sense, there? Might be interesting, but no matter how cool your technobaddies think they are, Faerun isn't an easy target. Don't forget that there are Divination spells that could very well help alert the people of the Realms and, thus, take some of the bite out of the invasion.
GothicDan 01-15-06, 07:10 PM	I always DID have a weak heart. :) Magic, used properly, would always trump technology, due to its sheer versatility. Elminster would know ahead of time of a Nuke coming towards him (Foresight), and there are a number of regions with Spelljammers (space ships-esque), including the Elven Imperial Fleet. So not only would they have to contend with Faerun, and all of its magical potency, but they would also have to take on the various Spelljammer fleets. ... And the gods.
HVulpes 01-15-06, 07:28 PM	There is the question about Clark's law (I think): Any Tech advance enough will seem like magic. From what is discribed, it sounds like super-sci-fi. Tech that can duplicate magic. Which has it's pluses and minuses. One tech tool, unlike some magic items, can be used by everyone and is usually easy to make. But that means that your foes can use it as well. It might be a good idea to discover what kind of rules you want first. Can tech duplicate any magic/effect? Or only certain types, effects and/or spells? (Machine guns are useless if they run on Gunpowder) What happens when tech and magic hit? Is it treated as the same or does it have a negative effect like Shadow magic hitting Weave magic? (Big Boom!!!) Can tech and magic be combined or does that have a negative effect? (Big Boom!!!) Anything you want is possible, but things like this will need more work. We can help, but details will be needed. (PErhaps the 20D Modern book might work best. But I can help as I don't have it.)
Kuje31 01-15-06, 09:16 PM	This is probably why Ed decided, and it's in the lore, that anything that uses modern electricity and circuits, doesn't work in FR. :) So no nukes, laser guns, etc. :)
Agent_of_the_Crown 01-15-06, 11:37 PM	First of all I would have to ask why Faerun in particular? Sounds like you simply want a campaign where Sci-Fi meets Fantasy and I have to guess Faerun is familiar to you so you chose it. Oh well, I too cringe at the thought but as GothicDan pointed out, magic always beats technology. The bottom line in this argument could be as simple as the invasion would fail because the gods would stop it. Faerun might not even ever know it was in peril because the gods simply don't want this outside force destroying all their hard work. Forgetting that trump card however, I assume you want this travesty to actually happen and quite frankly I see the invasion being crushed by powerful teleporting wizards and clerics who simply go to the motherships or whatever powerbase the invaders have, and summoning hundreds of demons to tear the place apart while they blast and destroy everything in site. Unless your invading force is used to teleportation as a battle tactic this would seem to be pretty effective. It hard to speculate since we don't know what powers this technlogical enemy is going to have, but if they are anything like Starship Troopers (the novel or the movie) they are doomed because they are firmly rooted in hard sci-fi and laws of physics pale in comparison to Magic. Frankly, this could be fun in a weird sort of way, but would not really be a Forgotten Realms campaign. It would be like a Marvel "What If" comic in my opinion.
Sigurd van Norhusen 01-16-06, 05:44 AM	What, what? The Vordoni are attacking Realmspace!? (Although their main fighters were special "breeds" of werewolves, they're about the only ones who have made a previous appearance in a DnD setting (aside from that really weird adventure with the sentinent computer) who would qualify as alien invaders.) You can find more infos about them in the 2nd edition Spelljammer adventure "Under the Iron Fist", should you wish to.
Myssa Rei 01-16-06, 07:19 AM	... Strangely enough, this brought to mind memories of the pre-3rd Edition Neogi. Or the Mindflayers before their sphere-spanning empire imploded.
MaskedOne 01-16-06, 11:39 AM	All right, here it is, I ‘am trying to make a campaign that involve an alien race with very powerful technology that they are to invade the world of Faerûn. The race I had in mind is similar to human but are base on a genetic cast system. There technology will be like earths’ but much farer in the future (starcraft, command and conjurer, starship troopers etc). I going to use the Dragonstar rulebooks because it is the easiest system to use for this kind of thing, plus I know it pretty well. But I need some idea, can a Red Dragon take on a battleship, will a machinegun kill a unicorn, can Waterdeep take a air strike, and can Elimister be destroy by a nuke?? Who will win? O’yeah this alien race will not be using magic, that why there trying to invading Faerun . Do the aliens have psions? That might save their necks. Otherwise, barring divine intervention, a sufficiently advanced technological threat could destroy Toril but it won't conquer the place. Tech is easier to use than magic and at the right levels possesses more raw destructive power than the mages of Toril wield. However few technical societies are advanced enough in all areas to match the versatility of Toril's magic users unless they've taken time analyze that magic and design sciences specifically to counter it. A machinegun can bring down a unicorn, sure. It won't do much to a wraith though. A battlecruiser can bring down a red dragon any day of the week in a straight up fight but it ceases to be a straight up fight if the dragon closes in or simply uses spells or items to scry the vessel. The question isn't whether a cruiser can bring down a dragon but whether the crew of that cruiser can do anything when the aforementioned dragon teleports onto the hull and tears it open or inside the ship and goes on a rampage. It's not all that hard to use common defensive spells on Toril to protect oneself from even the most powerful hand held weaponry. It would also be wise to avoid irritating Amlauril overly much. She may have difficulty teleporting a full blown cruiser on her own due to size and mass but with around 80 High Mages to call on, Evermeet may be able to simply reach out, grab the fleet and teleport it directly into a mountain range or plane shift it into the 9 Hells and limited divine intervention such as providing warning and possibly redirecting any initial orbital bombardment should be expected in the case of Evermeet since the initial warding was fashioned by Corellon and the queen is a Chosen of the Seldarine so there will be high mages left to face off with instead of the invaders wiping them out with a surprise strike from orbit.
The Simbul 01-16-06, 08:16 PM	Toril is a plane with the Dead Technology planar trait :P
Fabius Maximus 01-16-06, 09:11 PM	Magic, used properly, would always trump technology, due to its sheer versatility. Only as long as the orcs have no nullity talismans. Wait...:thinks: wrong world. ;)
Krash 01-16-06, 11:06 PM	This post just made most of us cringe, and I'm sure Dan, Krash and some of the others either passed away from heart failure, *moment of silence* or are on oxygen right now. :rofl: Well, now that I'm off the oxygen, I'll leave it to you worthies to respond to the gentleman's queries. -- George Krashos
Zsych 01-17-06, 06:04 AM	They're trying to invade Faerun(a place of primitive magic and civilization) to acquire magic? Possibly to fight some other (more advanced)magic wielding enemy? Then their attacks should be more careful and not Faerun spanning. I'd attack Shade if i were them. Of course, attacking schools of magic, to gain teachers and at worst apprentices might be a better idea.... attack Shade later. Maybe they want magical slaves to be used against other magical creatures(i recall that demons can only be hurt my magical weapons, so an enemy of that sort would require the acquisition of magical weaponry) If they have technology advanced enough to have mind control systems, it might work. - Overall, how it goes really depends on how the alien force is statted. - Personally, i think that one Eclipse class Stardestroyer, from Starwars, is more than enough to annihilate or subjugate Faerun. It'd have enough battle droids and storm-troopers to defend itself from teleporting enemies(not to mention that if they were imprisoned by locking up a section, not even a demon is likely to have the strength to break through those super-strong building materials. - Assuming that the aliens are intelligent in their battle planning(sending scouts before time, acquiring knowledge, planning for contingencies... like we would), then mass-production makes them able to overcome practically all of their foes. Superior communication would be a huge advantage in battle. - Plus even a canon can tear through most of a wizard's defences if the Drizzt novel i read is anything to go by, and they at least work fine, so machine guns will too. - On the gods issue... they're not all that all-knowing. I recall a Mystra avatar being destroyed by an enemy magic user in Elminster - the making of a mage. If the weapons on the ships are powerful enough, then they should be able to destroy most gods' avatars, except maybe for those with great magic(makes me wonder why her avatar didn't have contingency spells). Also, it's hard to say whether the gods are allowed to directly interfere with and save Faerun. - The elven spell-jammers: I thought they were basically just flying boats, with cross-bows and such. What use would they be? What use would even dragon-fire be against advanced space-ship armor. I'm not sure here, but would a dragon even be able to melt a tank? Maybe if an ancient dragon put all of the power in it's breath weapon into it, it'd be able to melt one tank(soon to be destroyed by the hundreds more that any decently technological people would send) - Seriously, if a portal were to open up between our world and Faerun, and the US decided that Faerun needed to be conquered, i'm sure it would be, and only a few powerful mages would be left around using guerilla tactics, 'cus even they would be destroyed in straight out battles with the advanced tech. Even we have plenty of under-handed and hard to fight weapons. Of course, there is a chance that the politicians would get charmed by some wizards. That'd put a rather quick end to the battle, unless the army was aware of and had prepared for such problems. Wonder what the monks and witches and such of our world could do against mages. Has anyone here tried those magic books, and hexes and such?
MaskedOne 01-17-06, 09:42 AM	Personally, i think that one Eclipse class Stardestroyer, from Starwars, is more than enough to annihilate or subjugate Faerun. It'd have enough battle droids and storm-troopers to defend itself from teleporting enemies(not to mention that if they were imprisoned by locking up a section, not even a demon is likely to have the strength to break through those super-strong building materials. Luke's Jedi academy by use of the Force literally threw a fleet of star destroyers out of their system once and fried the control mechanisms while the were at it. An Eclipse star destroyer is not going to last all that long against any concerted effort by the greater mages of Toril, especially not if Mystra provides support to their spellcasting. An Eclipse class might (if technology that advanced) could actually work in Toril's space render the planet uninhabitable with a surprise attack because the blasted things do have a variant of the Death Star superlaser built in but if it stays in orbit to try and support an invasion then it's liable to find itself thrown into Avernus and I'm sure the Hells will enjoy their new toy. Eclipse class vessels are powerful certainly but one vessel no matter how strong is not going to be large enough to prevent being thrown around by a concerted effort of Epic spellcasters with a divinity supporting them and without it as a base of operations whatever troops were sent down will eventually be overwhelmed. Seriously, if a portal were to open up between our world and Faerun, and the US decided that Faerun needed to be conquered, i'm sure it would be, and only a few powerful mages would be left around using guerilla tactics, 'cus even they would be destroyed in straight out battles with the advanced tech. Even we have plenty of under-handed and hard to fight weapons. A few powerful mages can wipe out a nation. If the US (once again provided tech worked on Toril) were to invade Toril, it would come down to the respective armegeddon tools of both sides Nukes vs. Killing Storms (or worse). Either that or El hunts down the President and forcibly arranges WWIII here. Regardless the US would die, the only question is would Faerun join us.
GothicDan 01-17-06, 11:18 AM	... Or the various archmages would just mentally dominate all of the leaders and say, 'Go back and play with your little toys.' Done. I'm a bloody Astrophysics Major. I deal regularly in near-Sci-Fi material, and I love it, but I cannot fathom how even advanced science could hold up to the unmitigated magical might of Faerun (even if somehow it managed to function in Realmspace). One of there reasons I enjoy physics so much is specifically because it's the closest to 'magic' we can get - and I can assure you we're still very far away.
MaskedOne 01-17-06, 01:31 PM	There are a handful of tricks that might turn things around but the tech wielding culture would need a great deal of advance information on how magic works and they'd probably aquire mages while they were at it. Provided the tech people know what they're dealing with, sufficiently advanced tech in ALL fields of human study might be enough to match Toril strength for strength. However, most examples I've seen in science fiction aren't that good. In fact they don't even come close. The tech mages of Babylon 5 might almost come within the same ballpark as what would be needed but I doubt it and without an understanding of true magic, they're still going to fail. I'm re-iterating an earlier question. Do our tech wielders have powerful psions at their disposal? Sufficiently advanced psionics is one of few things that might be able to bridge the gap on its own.
Minauros 01-17-06, 01:59 PM	Hey, this is a kind of fun topic! Personally, I don't see any attack like this coming without considerable infiltration and intelligence work happening first. Many, many targets being chosen for an overwhelming first strike. The dragon in question wouldn't stand much chance if he didn't know an attack was coming when he got superlasered from low orbit. Some powerful (or lucky) wizards might get wind before the nukes started hitting the cities, but those that didn't would be gone. Same for elven forests. Dwarves would have a pretty natural advantage living so far underground, but they might be easy to bury—for a while—and thus keep out of the fight for the time being. However, as this fight continued, I see plenty of opportunities for a magical society to strike back. How long would it be before a means to understand and reproduce technological weapons was created? How long before specialized magic to drain powers cells or nullify gunpowder was developed? There's a lot of potential for a clever party of PCs to really put on the Hero Hats and save the day, over and over again. Invasion by a powerful and truly technologically advanced people delivers a serious level of threat to the entire world—and at thte same time gives a deeply flawed enemy to the PCs that they can outwit, overcome, and be heroes against. Played correctly, I think this could be a game your players will talk about for years.
Zsych 01-17-06, 02:26 PM	I'd guess that the attacking force is evil(or they'd try negotiating first), and being harrassed by a magic wielding foe, or possibly a race that can only be defeated with magical weapons. As for the combined might of the mages of Faerun. How many are we really expecting to see working together. If we count only the chosen of Mystra, along with Vandergahast and a couple of others, their total number would probably amount to a dozen or so epic casters at best... once they realized the danger and had a chance to group together. Unfortunately for the goodies, all it really needs to stop them, is to take a few dozen low-tech populations hostage. Tell the army under the main command that orders to pull back cannot occur, and that any attempt to do so is likely because of charmed politicians. That coupled with fast communications, to actually carry out the threat, and the goodies should be mostly neutralized. Then Faerun would need to look towards the likes of Szass Tam, and other such evil wizards to save them :) - If electricity based technology doesn't work at all on Faerun or near it, then the baddies will have to enter through technologically created portals. (The Mechanus cannon spell from Planescape suddenly comes to mind). Unfortunately, as i said, explosives and machine guns will still work, if cannons work(and the Gondian priests did create cannons). Without electricity, you're basically stuck at the earlier industrial era level tech. Which means that you'll still have basic vehicles(though they may have to be produced off-planet to maintain quality). You'd probably also have airships available, and basic aircraft(the Halruaans have airships, and if birds can still fly, then you can have aircraft of the WW2 kind at least). And then... there's always the poor man's nuke... aka chemical weapons, which is probably what you would use to keep a few cities hostage. Might have to keep the weapons of mass-destruction on the other side of the portals though, if they're to be kept away from divination spells(not sure the average diviner would even recognize a bomb for what it is, but some might know through the weave). - With a large modular army, with specific tasks pre-planned, and all of those handy dandy rule books for situations developed(exactly the kind of stuff you'd expect from a high level technological culture), it won't be a simple job of beheading the beast. - And as for the US managing to conquer Faerun... it'd depend on how evil we're willing to be :) The kind of stuff that happened in those Iraqi jails implies that at least the military is willing to do whatever they think is needed. And the CIA's bad reputation might actually amount to something in such a situation :) - @Masked One: The whole circuitry trouble on the Star-destroyers was completely unanticipated. There's no way to say whether transport through a portal would hurt any normal ship(it was kinda interesting that the jedi had effectively thrown them out of the system, at faster than light speed :) ) Also, how quickly the enemy would adapt to the magic is also an issue. I expect that in a hundred years, customizability in mass produced systems will be much higher. Perhaps the Faerunians could get rid of a single eclipse class vessel by somehow shoving it elsewhere, but could they stop thousands of TIE Defenders individually, and not sitting still for some massive magic. Even epic spells of the highest DC don't usually have that kind of scope, unless you're going to use Mass death without the chance of resurrection as a mitigating factor for the spell :) Maybe Mystryl could have cast super-massive spells, but i personally doubt that Midnight/Mystra could do too much to a large fleet in one go(except maybe shutting down magic and taking away the reason for the enemy attack... unless they realize that Mystra's control of magic does not extend outside of the Toril and maybe the whole Crystal Sphere). Going by the Avatar novels... she used Avatars to solve her problems instead of massive spells.. and her avatars aren't all that impressive. Even the previous Mystra managed to get one of her avatars killed by one of those mages in Athalantar. (I'm still shocked that Mystra's avatar isn't a 400th level wizard. Karsus should have gathered an army and attacked Mystryl's home.. taking her power after killing her.. like what Finder Wyvernspur did to Moander :)) - @Gothic-Dan: Our world isn't quite so lacking in magic. There're a reasonable number of psychics and such around at least... And you can always learn magic if you're patient enough to do it(and are willing to suffer the annoyance value of a path where your progress is usually inversely proportional to your intelligence :)) ... Not to mention the whole lack of emotion, jedi like requirements :)
GothicDan 01-17-06, 02:36 PM	Personally, I don't see any attack like this coming without considerable infiltration and intelligence work happening first. Many, many targets being chosen for an overwhelming first strike. The dragon in question wouldn't stand much chance if he didn't know an attack was coming when he got superlasered from low orbit. Some powerful (or lucky) wizards might get wind before the nukes started hitting the cities, but those that didn't would be gone. Same for elven forests. Dwarves would have a pretty natural advantage living so far underground, but they might be easy to bury—for a while—and thus keep out of the fight for the time being. ... And 99.9999% of the population of Faerun has no clue about the Twisted Rune's powers and ambitions, as an example. How the heck do you think that simple non-magical spies sent to Faerun would be able to gather information about the really important NPCs? They couldn't bring any too-advanced technology to aid them, because it would be spotted immediately. All it takes is Savras saying, "A great threat lurks large on the horizon," and then a few thousand Wizards across Faerun (as well as the clergies of Savras, Azuth, Oghma, and Mystra) cast their divinations and omens and such, and they'd be well-prepared long before the 'big guns' came in. Played correctly, I think this could be a game your players will talk about for years. I don't know. There's just so many flaws in the entire idea that it makes me kind of queasy. As has been stated by the setting's creator, high-technology simply does not function, at all, in Faerun. This is most likely either due to AO or Mystra, either of which could snuff out all of the life on Earth if they wanted to. Not to mention that Gond would have effectively complete control over all of the high-tech weaponry and gizmos, due to his portfolio, and he doesn't prefer such fast-paced technology expansion.
GothicDan 01-17-06, 02:59 PM	Zsych: As for the combined might of the mages of Faerun. How many are we really expecting to see working together. If we count only the chosen of Mystra, along with Vandergahast and a couple of others, their total number would probably amount to a dozen or so epic casters at best... once they realized the danger and had a chance to group together. I'm a bit overwhelmed at this statement. The Chosen of Mystra would band together, yes, and Vandergahast - and the War Wizards of Cormyr, and the Harpers (they do have some pretty powerful magic), and Force Grey of Waterdeep. And the High Magi certainly would band together with the humans, too; I can't imagine even the Sun Elves refusing this, when the alternative is their forests and cities being annihilated. And despite the intrigue that is rife in Halruaa, that nation values magic above all else - technology would be especially anathema to them. A few hundred Elders, including a 29th level Diviner, would certainly be pretty handy, wouldn't it? And I'm sure that Larloch (who could have personally blown of Toril itself, if he wanted to, as stated by the Realms' creator) and his 60+ lich servitors and demiliches wouldn't really take kindly to having their research disturbed. Unfortunately for the goodies, all it really needs to stop them, is to take a few dozen low-tech populations hostage. Tell the army under the main command that orders to pull back cannot occur, and that any attempt to do so is likely because of charmed politicians. You really underestimate the sheer tenacity of the Chosen to do what needs to be done - Elminster, Khelben, and the Simbul in particular. That coupled with fast communications, to actually carry out the threat, and the goodies should be mostly neutralized. Then Faerun would need to look towards the likes of Szass Tam, and other such evil wizards to save them There's no looking towards them needed. If they couldn't bargain with the invaders (which I'm assuming is a no, in this case), then they would be just as furious and outraged, too. And as fractitious as the Red Wizards are, even if only 1/3 of the hundreds of Red Wizards of the country managed to band together, that's still a massive amount of arcane force. And then there's Shade, too, whose Epic level Princes are surprisingly cohesive, due to their mutual respect and fear for their father, Lord Shadow. And then all of the Shade Arcanists under the Princes.. Do you realize just how packed Faerun is with archmages who could individually blow entire countries off the map? The Simbul was going to do that herself - to Thay. There have been more Epic Wizards in the lore than all of the other classes combined. All it takes is a few of them with the Epic Spellcasting feat (which many of which should have despite their stat blocks missing them), some time, and a lot of resources - things which the archmages of Faerun have in abundance. Even if just the Simbul led an Epic Ritual and invited those who she felt she could trust - the Magister, Elminster, Alustriel, Laerel, Khelben, the Srinshee, all of her Aglarondan apprentices, all of Khelben's and Laerel's apprentices in the school of Waterdeep, all of the Harper mages - she could probably through up a cosmological block to rival that of the Imaskari. Or she could just create a huge singularity contingency in the space above Toril, contained via magic, where Savras recommended it would "be a good idea," and all of the little shippies would just go *BLIP!* as soon as they came through their cute little gate. (Farscape, anyone?) And of course all of the Elven High Magi would most likely unite under the Srinshee in such dire circumstances, particularly if Queen Amlaruil (who can cast Elven High Magic by herself..) ordered them too. And that doesn't count the hundreds (or perhaps thousands) of Elven Wizards in Evermeet who would help participate in such an Epic Ritual. If electricity based technology doesn't work at all on Faerun or near it, then the baddies will have to enter through technologically created portals. (The Mechanus cannon spell from Planescape suddenly comes to mind). They would have to follow the laws of Spelljamming, then. Which is literally D&D in space. Unfortunately, as i said, explosives and machine guns will still work, if cannons work(and the Gondian priests did create cannons). Machines guns will not because they utilize engineering technology that Gond (or perhaps AO or Mystra) has not allowed. Without electricity, you're basically stuck at the earlier industrial era level tech. Which means that you'll still have basic vehicles(though they may have to be produced off-planet to maintain quality). You'd probably also have airships available, and basic aircraft(the Halruaans have airships, and if birds can still fly, then you can have aircraft of the WW2 kind at least). The Halruaans' skyships are powered via magical spells. In Realmspace, to have any sort of cosmological travel or transport possible, one must utilize Spelljamming Helms, because higher forms of technology - combustion engines, overly complicated motors, etc. - will simply not function. And then... there's always the poor man's nuke... aka chemical weapons, which is probably what you would use to keep a few cities hostage. And as much as Talona loves plagues and poisons and the like, she wuoldn't love it so much if it killed all of her worshippers. So she'd know of this and counter it long ahead of time, or her clergy would. Heck, the clergies of all of the nature deities would also unite against such useages. Might have to keep the weapons of mass-destruction on the other side of the portals though, if they're to be kept away from divination spells(not sure the average diviner would even recognize a bomb for what it is, but some might know through the weave). They'd recognize that they don't recognize it, though divination spells are not simply scrying. - With a large modular army, with specific tasks pre-planned, and all of those handy dandy rule books for situations developed(exactly the kind of stuff you'd expect from a high level technological culture), it won't be a simple job of beheading the beast. You're right. There would be no beast, because it would have been beheaded 3 weeks before the invasion. And as for the US managing to conquer Faerun... it'd depend on how evil we're willing to be The kind of stuff that happened in those Iraqi jails implies that at least the military is willing to do whatever they think is needed. And the CIA's bad reputation might actually amount to something in such a situation And a rat can be really mean if you corner it. But the horse stomping on it still kills it just as well. Also, how quickly the enemy would adapt to the magic is also an issue. I expect that in a hundred years, customizability in mass produced systems will be much higher. As a scientist-in-training, I will not abide talk of scientific equipment so varied that we do not even have theoretical data, equations, and the like for such technology. Why? Because that's what distinguishes Sci-Fi from fantasy - not the equipment they use or the words, but the fact that Sci-Fi at least has some grounding in modern science as we know it. Perhaps the Faerunians could get rid of a single eclipse class vessel by somehow shoving it elsewhere, but could they stop thousands of TIE Defenders individually, and not sitting still for some massive magic. Even epic spells of the highest DC don't usually have that kind of scope, unless you're going to use Mass death without the chance of resurrection as a mitigating factor for the spell The Imaskari did something even more impressive, and there are many Wizards on Faerun now that are at least as powerful, and perhaps better divinely sponsored, than they were. Maybe Mystryl could have cast super-massive spells, but i personally doubt that Midnight/Mystra could do too much to a large fleet in one go(except maybe shutting down magic and taking away the reason for the enemy attack... unless they realize that Mystra's control of magic does not extend outside of the Toril and maybe the whole Crystal Sphere). If Larloch can blow up the world, I'm sure the first/second most powerful Faerunian deity could deal with a fleet or 10 of spaceships. The Simbul herself through a mountain in Baator almost as an afterthought; and Mystra's mere glances slew millions of Baatezu at once as if they were gnats. And this was when she was in Hell, a plane where her personal power was severely hindered most likely. Now, what are your references for your hypothetical limits on Mystra's power? Going by the Avatar novels... she used Avatars to solve her problems instead of massive spells.. and her avatars aren't all that impressive. Even the previous Mystra managed to get one of her avatars killed by one of those mages in Athalantar. ... During the Avatar novels, she, as all of the other gods were, was forced into Avatar form by AO himself. (I'm still shocked that Mystra's avatar isn't a 400th level wizard. Karsus should have gathered an army and attacked Mystryl's home.. taking her power after killing her.. like what Finder Wyvernspur did to Moander ) Mystra's Avatar could be if it wanted to, most likely. The printed stats for Avatars are only one possibility; they can be made weaker or more powerful as the deity desires. @Gothic-Dan: Our world isn't quite so lacking in magic. There're a reasonable number of psychics and such around at least... And you can always learn magic if you're patient enough to do it(and are willing to suffer the annoyance value of a path where your progress is usually inversely proportional to your intelligence ) ... Not to mention the whole lack of emotion, jedi like requirements I'm an Atheist and a Physicist (soon to be, at least).
MaskedOne 01-17-06, 03:08 PM	That coupled with fast communications, to actually carry out the threat, and the goodies should be mostly neutralized. Then Faerun would need to look towards the likes of Szass Tam, and other such evil wizards to save them :) Larloch theoretically, it depends on if you take Greenwood's word (I generally do) or extrapolate based on level and template, can blow up a planet several time over. Larloch has never to my knowledge been accused of being a nice man. The Elves have a history of wiping out nations with High Magic, yes they weep, moan and feel guilty later. Note that nations and any men, women and children caught in the path of whatever most recent unpleasantness gets set loose are still very dead. A tidal wave off the atlantic seaboard would severely complicate my life. A combination of mind reams, shapeshifting and domination can move any US military force far enough from civilian targets to wipe them out without threat to whoever they're taking hostage. This is provided you're dealing with troops who will actually accept orders to fire on civilians. What you see on the news aside, we're talking about people who take great joy in providing a convoy of toys for local children around bases currently on foreign soil every year around Christmas. You might get them to commit atrocities or they might take the commander in question in to custody for ordering them to act in violations of the Geneva conventions and the US code of military justice. Personally, I prefer not to be the moron delivering the order. I like my life and I prefer to keep it. Pushing the tolerance for barbarism within the US military is not the best way to do that. Cannons and machine guns are operative on Toril only if they work through smokepowder which is inherently magical. Gunpowder is worthless and Mystra and Shar may decide to collectively render smokepowder worthless in such a case. Relying on Tie Defenders is problematic at best. Yes they can do a lot of damage, but you don't take and hold ground with aircraft. Fuel runs out eventually, pilots get tired, a handful of other things. Well that, and while Mystra does not make a habit of using massive epic style magic. She did slaughter every airborne fiend in Avernus once before pulling back to Toril. I wouldn't put it past her to do the same to all the Tie Defender pilots. @Gothic-Dan: Our world isn't quite so lacking in magic. There're a reasonable number of psychics and such around at least... And you can always learn magic if you're patient enough to do it(and are willing to suffer the annoyance value of a path where your progress is usually inversely proportional to your intelligence ) ... Not to mention the whole lack of emotion, jedi like requirements This is a debatable point but even if we count the psychics and occultists as an active force. They work along more subtle and much slower routes than the wizards of Toril and 90% lack the right mindset or adequate disciple to stand toe to toe against a senior apprentice in the areas that they do work with.
Zsych 01-17-06, 03:48 PM	From a more scientific POV, if advanced science didn't work, then neither would we. We are afterall the products of some very advanced science. We wouldn't even be able to move our bodies without electricity... Not to mention that we wouldn't be able to think at all. So for convenience, let's assume that there's a highly controlled spell in effect on Toril that stops normal technology from working, while letting us stay alive. That might imply that stevieman69's alien menace will need a fair amount of genetic engineering and other bio-tech to replace standard tech. Quite possible in the future. After all, who can say that we won't create gigantic organisms to make electricity like electric eels.. that can be fed normal food instead of oil. ... Which might lead to us creating the Zerg at some point :) - On the occult side... as i understand it, it is possible to grow fast(faster than Faerunian mages), at the rather large risk of killing yourself. A very dedicated person, or someone with a ruthless teacher might be able to do it. Of course, if you end up with a very detached person, you probably won't be able to motivate him or use him in battle. ------------ @Gothic-Dan: Sorry, didn't see your post before :) I agree that there are quite a number of epic mages around. But i doubt that they actually would band together. Nor would the enemy casually attack all parts of the world at once... That'd be ridiculous. One nation should be enough(more like over-kill... if they want to acquire magic, their first step should be to acquire teachers, and learn something of magic, and their second step should be to take-over Shade as the near epitome of magical technology on Toril) As for Elminster, the Simbul and lot being merciless in the face of their people being hostages in serious danger. I wouldn't bet on it. Not to mention that although those aliens would be threatening, they likely wouldn't be intending to annihilate Toril, just steal magical knowledge and items for the most part. Risking cities being annihilated is not something even the Simbul will do in such a situation(though she may have some covert ops going on in the background) Also, where the Simbul might be able to pull off an amazing epic spell using the casting power of hundreds of casters, she'd have to spend quite some time researching it... Assuming that it proved possible for a single wizard to direct all that power. The elves... if they're not being threatened, i wouldn't bet on them suddenly risking high-magic to help some unfortunate human country... and they don't have any existing spells prepared for such a situation either(not to mention that one doesn't really research high-magic for the most part... it being as risky as it is) Machine-guns(at least the original version), were very simple things, if a rather good idea... The engineering principles for machine guns not working, amounts to saying that springs can't exist in FR. Hmm.. as for stopping ideas, i thought only Oghma did that, and even if they did stop an idea from spreading, they can't stop an idea that has already spread. The Halruaan skyships.. i thought they were just basic airships, which're basically jumped up balloons. I suppose their propulsion might be magical though(being descendents of Netheril, they probably never needed combustion engines) Talona stopping bio-chemical weapons to protect her worshippers? She doesn't have all that many to begin with. As i recall her primary tactic when people are not sending prayers for mercy is to actually poison places. Doesn't necessarily mean she can stop all types of biological and chemical weapons(born of a technological world, they'd probably be beyond her ability to understand unless she has worshippers on some technological world or has done research of that kind herself... these gods aren't exactly all knowing... there have been cases of gods being found too primitive for new concepts before... goddess of poison may not amount to goddess of bio-chemically engineered poisons and diseases) ... And divination spells getting across to other planes completely untouched by local magic? Wouldn't bet on it. Mystra's weave doesn't even extend outside the Crystal Sphere. Plus it would depend on the properties of the place the attackers came from. Besides, for a space-ship, where something is now, is not where it will be ten minutes from now. On the US attacking Faerun... as if we would walk in with no preperation at all. And it's not like even Mystra likely knew that Shade enclave was coming back and that it was going to cause trouble that the Chosen would have to handle. I wouldn't bet on divine beings anticipating the attack years in advance and being prepared(not to mention that we don't worship them, so their powers would be limited in our plane) On the Customization issue... don't be too sure, my scientist-in-training friend. Naturally you can't defend against something you don't understand, but it may well become possible to make things from specific materials much more quickly. To manipulate existing plants to develop different chemicals, and possibly to modify ship-designs more quickly to add new features, using advanced computer aided designing in the future, for problems like magical attacks seriously disrupting electrical systems... which is what i actually had in mind when talked about customization... modifying the design of the space-ship to handle more problems than just a hull-breach. It'd require independent controllers for different parts of the ship, so they could work in isolation if they had to, but someone fighting against magic for the first time would have to adapt, and with enough technology they'd be able to adapt much quicker than Faerunians. You can't just develop spells for new situations on the fly. Epic spells are an even bigger problem, especially because you can't get multiple people to work on them together. ... Don't know what the Imaskari did. Enlighten me. As for Larloch blowing up the world... His Lord of Darkness version doesn't suggest anything along those lines. I didn't know there were DBZ characters running around in FR :) Of course, the Lord of Darkness version doesn't say anything about the 60+ liches and such either(and to think i got Lord of Darkness purely because i'd heard there was stuff about Larloch in it :) ) As for my low opinion on the limits of Midnight/Mystra's power... 1. She wasn't sure she had the control to attempt something like the creation of the Seven Sisters even. 2. After she'd become a god, and was no longer being forced by Ao, she was solving problems by using multiple oversized avatars(i think she can have upto 18 at a time or so i recall) 3. Not sure about the massive destruction of baatezu you're attributing to her, maybe i didn't read the stuff seriously enough, but the fact that she sent agents at all, to rescue Elminster, and then sent more agents, doesn't speak well of her. 4. I recall Moander's death. Sure he wasn't one of the greater gods anymore, but back home in the Abyss, he was killed by a single opponent using a shard form the elemental plane of ice... couldn't he teleport away? couldn't he have changed the composition of his body? .... So i assume that those stats given for Mystra's avatar and others are correct. Mystra's avatar if i recall correctly isn't even a 40th level mage without the 10+ level spell restriction(if i recall correctly she's a Wiz20/Clr20) Mystra can cast any spell in existence casually, but by and large the spells in existence are those 1st to 12th level spells plus existing epic spells, which she can manipulate to some degree. If i recall from her PoV in some book correctly and i think i do, she says that she has access to all spells ever developed, and a few yet to be developed. 5. I remember Mystra's avatar being killed in Elminster - the Making of a Mage, by someone i assume was using planar magic... and then her going on to say that everytime one of her avatars dies, she becomes weaker, so she can't risk hanging around Elminster in avatar form so much(rather pathetic if you ask me) As for the being an atheist and a physicist, and thus ignoring what is called magic... i'd say that if a thing exists, then it exists, whether or not someone can detect it, or determine it's relationship with known laws of physics. The Big Bang may have occured, but why did it occur, where did the material come from? Why did it happen then, and not a few billion years before or after. And Why doesn't whatever the first source was(god or otherwise) also have a source? What does it really mean that Cause and Effect aren't the basic law of nature, that this reality actually is? Theoretically, with Cause and Effect, there should never have been a first cause, and we should not exist, and yet we do. (Whether or not that first cause - god as some would call it - is actually sentient in any sense that we'd understand) Hmm... there's an old book called the Silva Mind Control Method by (H)Jose Silva... though some of what the guy says may not sound exactly correct(he tried being scientific about his work), there's no harm in practicing the techniques, and maybe you'll end up believing that there definitely is something strange going on(or you could PM me and i could just PM you back the basic techniques :) )
Kuje31 01-17-06, 04:03 PM	Unfortunately, as i said, explosives and machine guns will still work, if cannons work(and the Gondian priests did create cannons). Without electricity, you're basically stuck at the earlier industrial era level tech. Which means that you'll still have basic vehicles(though they may have to be produced off-planet to maintain quality). You'd probably also have airships available, and basic aircraft(the Halruaans have airships, and if birds can still fly, then you can have aircraft of the WW2 kind at least). Cannons in FR use smokepowder, not gunpowder since gunpowder doesn't work in FR and smokepowder is a magical substance. As for vehicles, where would they get the energy to pump the gas? Electricity, combustion, and Earth tech as we know it does not work in FR, as I said. They would be back to animals pulling thier vehicles, if they managed to get to FR.
HVulpes 01-17-06, 05:57 PM	Since most of Science seems to be blocked by the physical laws of Toril perhaps this could work as a plan B. Simply try to convert technology to magic. Instead of a Laser gun shooting concentrated beams of light powered by a powerpack, try a enchanted Crossbow that shoots beams of light powered by a power crystal. Instead of genetic splicing done with very tiny tool, try ones that uses magic to change the structure of the character (Perhaps even allowing it to breed true). The Invasion Adventure that was highlighted in Dragon and Dungeon had some great ideas that seems similar to yours. The Githyanki invade with Astral ships and dragons. Neutralize or kill the chosen. Cause Chaos with a big X. I forget which issues they are in, but it might help. Does that help?
WizO_Lyoness 01-17-06, 05:58 PM	This is getting a little too personal, ladies and gents. I'm going to suggest that since you are trying to mix settings in your campaign that, you're going to find all sorts of complications you're going to have to think about. Because these settings are for a game and all made up anyhow, don't worry about what is possible and what isn't. Just have fun with whatever you decide! I'll leave this open, so long as there are no more real world opinions on science or religion (as those are off topic in this forum) and as long as it stays friendly. -WizO Lyoness
Ioulaum 01-17-06, 06:57 PM	Going back to the starcraft route. Instead of using terran tech base invaders. How about using a combination of Protess pison and Zerg biotech. The laws governing high tech on Toril would not be able to do anything about the Zergs/Protess. A Army of Zergs led by Protess Archon overseers with the overall command form the Overmind. Just think of what the Overmind can do with all the different samples of lifeforms on toril :D And what it can do with it if given enough time. And remeber High Tech doesn't always mean the mechnical stuff. Biotech is also High Tech.
GothicDan 01-17-06, 11:00 PM	All forms of advanced/mocern technology or better are 100% and utterly banned in Realmspace. No exceptions. It's as simple as that. You can change this in your own game if you want, but that's the way it is, as it stands.
Ioulaum 01-18-06, 03:53 AM	All forms of advanced/mocern technology or better are 100% and utterly banned in Realmspace. No exceptions. It's as simple as that. You can change this in your own game if you want, but that's the way it is, as it stands. Except that Protess uses Pison, which is already in the realms. And the Zergs are biological constructs of different types of lifeforms. Neither of which needs electricity or gun power or laser and what not. If a hoard of orcs can destory severa great kingdoms of the past. Think of what a Zerg Hoard under the calculating minds of the Overmind can do and add in the protess Psi powers. The realms would be in a hell of time fighting against something like this.
Zsych 01-18-06, 07:11 AM	I think that stevieman69 has vanished from this thread :) For stevieman though, i don't think that he's trying to replace science with magic. Otherwise, there are those existing baddies in space with their spelljamming ships. A large organization with the resources of dozens of planets could probably do much. Even just the modern attitude towards science, applied to magic, would lead to something like Netheril, or maybe even more. Faerun is in no position to handle an opponent of that type. If there were huge magical research facilities with massive funding, the mages in the average encounters might become 20th level :) And with all of them having access to more spells than Elminster :) But back to science, if he's going to allow science in the realms, he just needs to design and stat his characters and items. He can have his machine guns and lasers. Might even be interesting... start off with rumors of an imminent invasion reaching the PCs(like believers in aliens might suggest), with nobody believing. Then the PCs having an experience along those lines(seemingly strange magical weapons) and spaceships.. with no one believing them :) .. And then eventually to some kind of localized war('cus if it were wide-scaled and included all of the Chosen of Mystra and every epic character in Faerun, then the PCs wouldn't have much to do) - As for Protoss and Zerg, that would be fun. Protoss items could be considered psionic items... Better an attack by that species that was created at the end of StarCraft - Broodwar. That Zerg/Protoss hybrid... With access to both the light and dark magic equivalent of theirs. As most nations' mages don't tend to do very much in battle, leading to those orc-hordes causing so much damage(even in Netheril, they chose to raise enclaves, so that they wouldn't have to fight directly) So armies of zerg, with (weak)mages being assimilated and then mass-produced, could be interesting. ... It'd be better than the disappointment Shade caused. I'd expected much more from it.
stevieman69 01-18-06, 11:53 AM	No I’m still here, I was gone for like a few day and it look like I started a show here. But anyways I been thinking about what everyone had to say so far and since I’m stubborn and like to break rules tech will work in this realm. But without some type of pison in the works my invader will be wipe out. So now we have high tech with pison powers vs low tech with high magic. Tactics: to send spies and gather Int, to adduct high power mages and use some type of mind control or sleep (if to powerful). Steal magic items, and if possible make deals or allies with other evil individual for an upper hand. or any idea???? And for the PC this won’t be going on until like lvl 15
Zsych 01-18-06, 12:18 PM	I don't think that they should be allowed to abduct and mind-control high level mages(in D&D there's usually some kind of save allowed against mind controlling effects that high level characters can usually manage). Low level mages abducted would give them an entry into magic, a place to work from. They could apply their technological attitude there. They might concievable be able to mass-produce copies of these low level wizards, or copy their knowledge into their own soldiers. I'd expect it to be equivalent to steal magic where they would have the effective abilities of the mages the abilities were copied from. Capturing high level mages also tends to be a huge problem, since they can teleport away, and probably have contingency spells in effect. But your baddies could work upwards with their improving tools over the years. When the alien effects are large though, i'd expect that all of the countries would be reacting, and using their resources as intelligently as possible(refer many of the ideas no this thread). The baddies' enemies making an entrance a few years down the line might also be interesting. I'm assuming that they have super-star destroyer style spelljamming ships, if they're magical :) ... Wonder if they'd find their magic nor working with the 10+ level spell limitations in Toril :)
Ioulaum 01-18-06, 01:11 PM	Instead of Abducting low lvl mages, have them abduct low lvl sorcs. A mage has to study to gain magic. A sorc is born with magic, thats puts in the genetic part of it allowing the invaders to be able to subsume it. Especially if the invaders are anything like the Zergs with their natural affainty to biological science.
NightBreeze 01-20-06, 09:58 AM	Ok.... First, let's say none of the deities can act, because if they do, none of the invaders would survive. Remember, in one of the last novels Mystra almost nuked the entire fistr level of Baator and she had to retire only because the barrier between nine hells and prime world was going to shatter. As for larloch, LoD says he is CR 34. Ed Greenwood says he is CR 48. I'm used to believe in what Realms' creator says. And let's suppose the invaders manage to kill 90% of the magic users( impossible). However a single well-hidden high-level wizard ( maybe in the lower underdark) with no barred school can simple blow away any invading fleet, given some time. Nothing can protect you from divination. In a week he will know the and the position of all important commanders, computer, scientists, research labs, factories. Now, there are dozens of ways to go on. 1st) Just Wish for a 1creature/level to appear in fron of you. The invaders have an awesome tecnology, but i don't thing they would be able to succeed in a CD 25+ Will save. Now have fun with them 2nd) Mental domination: you don't even need to be near to them 3rd) Start casting teleport fireball(one of the most funny spells existing) 4th) Start summoning fiends and make them teleport into the headquarters. ...and so on So basically, there is nothing tecnology can do in order to find a wizard who doesn't want to be found and TELEPORT f'''s everything On the other hand i think that if us try to invade faerun..... earth is into the deep sh't. Anyone remember what the guerrilla planewalkers were going to do to phyrexia? The idea is funny, though.
Karsus the Mad 01-20-06, 12:01 PM	While some have laughed at the idea (shame on ye all! hehehehe), I won't...no, I won't. Just take D20 Future and apply it to the Forgotten Realms. Afterall, if a few gnomes on Lantan can duplicate magic using pure mundane technoloogy (gnome artificer), who are also working on non-magical teleportation, I'm sure a civilization more advanced than cogs and pistons can achieve far much more. For example, a nuke is far more powerful than any non epic spell, and even most epic spells, yet is rather easy for sufficiently advanced civilizations. While the flavor isn't particularly FR, it's your game, you're the DM, you decide what's appropriate and what's not. If you think El can die from a nuke, then indeed he can and will die from a nuke. Have fun, goodluck, and good gaming.
NightBreeze 01-20-06, 03:46 PM	Even a 200 lvl wizard will die by a nuke. The questions are : 1) Will the wizard be there when the nuke is activated? 2) Will he stay dead for a long?
TheAscendant 01-23-06, 01:52 AM	I think it brings up some interesting ideas. Im running my current tabletop game in a similar direction, although Im using Ethergaunts from Fiend Folio as my bad guys. The whole campaign is centered around the return of the Khen-Zai/Ethergaunts, which in my own personal little FR campaign are called the True Imaskari, who are coming back to take what is theirs. Sure, it doesnt make a ton of sense, but my players are loving it...and that Steve, is the whole damn point. If you want to send the heroes of FR screaming to their graves and have tanks crushing elven tree circles while jets hunt dragons and nukes send the City of Shade to the ground, then so be it. Most of us around here dont prefer that particular vein of game, but we dont sit at your house, drinking your Mt.Dew, and magic missiling the darkness. Your players do, and if they dig it, then shovel on my friend.
Zsych 01-27-06, 12:37 PM	A little Startrek style technology is all they need to find wizards. Scientist:"We have determined that the use of magic can be detected by disruptions in tachyon flow, this is especially true around high level wizards(whereever they might be), and now with our ridiculously advanced technology we can easily locate all such anomalies on the target planet. Also a tachyon flow stablizer seems to have the same effects as an Anti-magic shell(or the Time of Troubles)... It also makes Mystra powerless and sick, unable to reach us with her magic.... The other gods also suffer from the same problem as they all use magic... And, As if that were not enough, disturbing the function of the weave with these tachyon stablizers, also inhibits the ability of the weave to effect things within our ships i.e. it kills all attempts at divination, which depends on the weave having access to required knowledge." General:"General pleased! General Smash!!!" Wizard: Mama!!!
Karsus the Mad 01-27-06, 01:28 PM	Even a 200 lvl wizard will die by a nuke. The questions are : 1) Will the wizard be there when the nuke is activated? 2) Will he stay dead for a long? If the dm decides El dies from a nuke, then obviously yes, he's there when it detonates. Whether he can return or not depends on whether the dm decides a nuclear explosion at ground 0 leaves any trace to be resurrected.
Arilou_skiff 01-27-06, 01:58 PM	Oh well, I too cringe at the thought but as GothicDan pointed out, magic always beats technology. "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." There, Clarke's Law! Okay, this depends on *how* advanced the aliens are and *how* well-prepared. Assuming they manage to infiltrate (or at least somehow gather info on Faerûn, perhaps with the "Magic Detector" mentioned) they could cause quite a lot of damage: Imagine, for instance, that the alien's teleportation devices bypass magical teleport blocks (they don't access the Astral Plane) The aliens could probably selectively nuke (either with actual bombs or just by sending in hit-squads with anti-matter rifles :p) any epic-mage they feel like. Play up the idea of "Incompatibility". The aliens use things that the people of Faerûn cannot possibly understand, it might even *look* the same (say... A grenade vs. a Fireball) 'cept that the common defences don't work (you can't counterspell a grenade...) Oh yeah, another thing to counter the epic FR mages: Psionics. No reason the aliens couldn't have a specially bred caste of psychics. And let's suppose the invaders manage to kill 90% of the magic users( impossible). However a single well-hidden high-level wizard ( maybe in the lower underdark) with no barred school can simple blow away any invading fleet, given some time. Assuming the aliens do not have computers and defences that can destroy him. ("Sensors have detected an unauthorised teleportation, we are now dispatching nanobots to disassemble the target..." Most "Magical" effects can be duplicated via technology, and vice-versa. Nothing can protect you from divination. In a week he will know the and the position of all important commanders, computer, scientists, research labs, factories. Now, there are dozens of ways to go on. Simple lead will protect you from simpler divinations, now higher-level ones is a bit trickier, but a few psions can probably do it. So basically, there is nothing tecnology can do in order to find a wizard who doesn't want to be found and TELEPORT f'''s everything Assuming they don't have some Star-Trek level technology like a computer that can read the mind of the entire planet (and single out wizards accordingly, which, incidentally, would make a great target for a PC strike-team) or a simple scanner that goes "Beep" whenever matter is teleported without authorization...
Zsych 01-27-06, 02:58 PM	The resources available to any highly industrialized space-faring culture should be far greater than those available to the people of a single un-unified planet with Faerun's level of development. If these aliens have come to get magic, then they should have a reason. A magical enemy they are having trouble fighting may imply trouble defeating magic(of the level of the enemy, which may or may not be much higher than Faerun's level). I'd really like to know what exactly stevieman69 has created. Why do these advanced aliens feel inclined to attack Faerun and acquire/steal magic, and what their basic mind-set is? Careful/Intelligent? Powerful over-confident and rampaging? Why didn't they try negotiating for the knowledge and items they needed? A first encounter with a Thayan zulkir giving them a bad impression of Faerunians in general...
Darrian 01-28-06, 06:07 PM	If I were to DM a campaign of "alien invaders attack Faerun" I would choose an alien race/civilization that already exists in another game, so that I have an already well developed template to work off of. The only hard work then would be converting the template to 3.5 rules and figuring out the aliens reason to invade based on the mindset of the template race. Creating your own "alien invader" race from scratch is so unnecessary. I have been maddeningly obsessed with Warhammer 40K for the last 6 months or so and I would choose one of the armies in that game system for my "alien invaders" campaign if I did one. I can guarantee that the probability of Faerun surviving a Tyranid or Necron invasion would be close to nil. In the end, I am not sure I could get/keep my players onboard such a campaign. Let's face it, most D&D players play D&D to play D&D, not some combination of other games mixed with D&D. The guy playing the ranger in my campaign prefers to fight the ogres to fighting the space aliens. Darrian Black Legion!
Mirtek 01-28-06, 06:33 PM	our world and Faerun, and the US decided that Faerun needed to be conquered, i'm sure it would be, and only a few powerful mages would be left around using guerilla tactics, 'cus even they would be destroyed in straight out battles with the advanced tech. Actually no, they would not. Mages, if using the rules to their full extend (which even the various campaign setting ihnore in their continuity) could lay waste to out entire civilization. Remember what the natural disasters did during the last few month? Maybe even seen Day after tomorrow? A high level wizard can do this several times a day, accross the whole planet. Quick teleport to Washington, open a vulcano in the middle of the city, quick teleport to New York, calling a tsunami, quick teleport .... And while launching all these devasting attacks capable of destroying even the biggest of our cities, the mages would be effectively immortal. Not only would their defensive spells make them all but invulnerable to our weapons (ironguard, energy immunity, wraithform), even if they are finally slain, they simply awake, completly unharmed, on the astral plane since all we slew was an astral projection, the wizard himself was safe and sound in his secret demiplane the whole time. Unfortunately, as i said, explosives and machine guns will still work, if cannons work(and the Gondian priests did create cannons). Actually no, the would not. Gunpowder as we know it does not work on Toril. The firearms that exist on Toril use smokepower, and that is a magical substance. (I'm still shocked that Mystra's avatar isn't a 400th level wizard. Karsus should have gathered an army and attacked Mystryl's home.. taking her power after killing her.. like what Finder Wyvernspur did to Moander :)) Mystra's avatar is a Wiz40/Clr40 who is immune to all magic unless she wants to be hit by a particular magic, and she can have 10 of them at once. Karsus, a Wiz45 himself IIRC, could not even handle a single avatar of her. Not to mention Mystra in her true form which, in 2e, was powerfull beyond all stats D&D could handle. (Yes, I am using 2e stats, because we only have 2e stats for Karsus) Moander was already all but death when Finder arrived, he was basically already in coma, And Finder had the divine sponsorship of Tymora to slay Moander
Zsych 01-29-06, 12:09 PM	@Mirtek: You're assuming that we would act like complete idiots if we'd decided to conquer Faerun. First off, i don't recall any epic spells of the caliber needed to create Tsunamis and such. With rituals though, or elven High-magic spells(which also usually require multiple casters), it could probably be done. Doesn't matter we have nukes too. Of course, war cannot escalate to that level, or the US and Russia would've destroyed the world long ago. You have to imagine both sides behaving sensibly. In which case, economics alone dictate that we'd win over those savages. It's not like people would jump into the war with no defence against magic. Not to mention that lots of magical knowledge and power can be bought or acquried... and the Faerunians wouldn't really be ready for our weapons either. After all, there are plenty of indecent weapons that can be fielded. - Gunpowder not working... okay someone else said that too. I suppose the gods or such cast some massive spell that would target and disable technology somehow(while somehow leaving us alive). That doesn't mean that you couldn't use smoke-powder to build weapons(the Gondians have already built canons). And you'd probably find other replacements for explosives if you look at the right places. Any decently industrialized people can afford to fund research of a far greater magnitude than the people of Toril could. They may have plenty of gold, but that gold doesn't really have the same level of buying power as it would for us. - As for Mystra's avatar. First she has no direct defence against non-weave magic. She can't even sense it. Second, Karsus took down Mystryl, who was far more powerful than Mystra. Not because he was more powerful over all, but because he had created a spell to which she had no counter. A 40th level Wizard without the right spells isn't necessarily going to defeat a 20th level wizard who has gotten a hold of his weakness. Somewhat akin to Scissors/Paper/Stone. Just because Scissors beat Paper, doesn't mean that they beat Stone. As for Moander... he was fine. He may not have been worshipped on Toril, but he had other worshippers across the planes. He had expended a lot of his power, but all things considered, Tymora didn't actually do anything valuable to help Finder out, in defeating Moander. No godly power was flowing into him from Tymora making him stronger than Moander. ... He already had the shard of the elemental plane of Ice, and that was strong enough to destroy Moander's body(probably the same for anyone else without proper defences). If he'd stuck it into the eye of Tymora's primary avatar/body, she might not have survived much better(though actually getting to her might've been a problem) [Let's temporarily ignore the rule that says that a mortal can't kill a god without divine sponsorship. There was no real sponsorship, just bad luck on Moander's side... Or you could consider the shard from the elemental plane of ice, to be an artifact.] In a sense that's what would happen in a battle between Stevieman69's forces and the people of Toril, both would seek to exploit the other's weaknesses and steal what can be stolen from the enemy(very hard to do much damage by stealing to an industrial society, unless you're stealing factories, and all the related factories, but stealing magical items and their makers is quite easy :) ... as long as they can't teleport away)
Mirtek 01-29-06, 12:25 PM	First off, i don't recall any epic spells of the caliber needed to create Tsunamis and such. With rituals though, or elven High-magic spells(which also usually require multiple casters), it could probably be done. Actually no, that aren't even epic spells, these are "merely 9th level spells". Doesn't matter we have nukes too. First: They do not work on Toril. Second: Unlikely to kill every single mage capable of doing that in one attack Third: Wouldn't be much of a conquest if all that's left is hostile to life for decades You have to imagine both sides behaving sensibly. In which case, economics alone dictate that we'd win over those savages. Magic > economics (annother thing ignored in basically all campagin setting continuities) It's not like people would jump into the war with no defence against magic That's the problem: Our technology is not able to defend itself against the kind of magic avaible on Faerun. That doesn't mean that you couldn't use smoke-powder to build weapons(the Gondians have already built canons). Yes, but since smokepower is magic, we would not be able to build it. Any decently industrialized people can afford to fund research of a far greater magnitude than the people of Toril could. Money doesn't help anymore after a certain point. They may have plenty of gold, but that gold doesn't really have the same level of buying power as it would for us. Buying what? As for Mystra's avatar. First she has no direct defence against non-weave magic. She can't even sense it. Destroying an avatar doesn't harm a deity at all. On Faerun Karsus was unable to use anything but weave magic, on her home plane Mystra was in command of all magic. (PS: 2e's avatar was immune to all magic, weave magic of not) Second, Karsus took down Mystryl, who was far more powerful than Mystra. Not because he was more powerful over all, but because he had created a spell to which she had no counter. Actually according to the rules she had any counters she needed and many more. By the RAWs Karsus' spell could only work because Mystryl, for what ever reasons she had, allowed it to get this far. As for Moander... he was fine. He may not have been worshipped on Toril, but he had other worshippers across the planes. He had expended a lot of his power, but all things considered, Tymora didn't actually do anything valuable to help Finder out, in defeating Moander. No godly power was flowing into him from Tymora making him stronger than Moander. Did you even read all the modules, supplements, and novels or just some pieces of them? When Finder arrived on his home plane, Moander wasn't even capable of defending himself anymore (he couldn't even move anymore, he was just lying their motionless, mounting some last desperarte and feeble attempts to do something against Finder). At this point he had expended almost all power he had left and he was already starving to death since centuries ago. He hadn't any worshippers left. After his worship died on Toril the Saurials were the last worshippers he had, and he marched all of them to Toril. At this point he had no other worshippers on other planes left. He already had the shard of the elemental plane of Ice, and that was strong enough to destroy Moander's body(probably the same for anyone else without proper defences). If he'd stuck it into the eye of Tymora's primary avatar/body, she might not have survived much better(though actually getting to her might've been a problem) By 2e RAW (when all this happend) it couldn't slay a deity, it was merely a plot device
Karsus the Mad 01-29-06, 06:19 PM	Doesn't matter we have nukes too. First: They do not work on Toril. Second: Unlikely to kill every single mage capable of doing that in one attack Third: Wouldn't be much of a conquest if all that's left is hostile to life for decades First, Second, and Third, No where is it said that "thermo nuclear ballistic missles do not work on Toril". Show us a source before stating opinion as fact. ;) Yes, but since smokepower is magic, we would not be able to build it. Really? It has statistics, it has a price. IT CAN BE MADE. If Lantan can do it, so can I. :cool: Destroying an avatar doesn't harm a deity at all. On Faerun Karsus was unable to use anything but weave magic, on her home plane Mystra was in command of all magic. (PS: 2e's avatar was immune to all magic, weave magic of not) And this means what, exactly? This is 3e the OP is talking of, spout 2e elsewhere. Noone knows exactly how Karsus did it. Using the Weave is questionable on a few levels. It's more likely he simply bypassed the Weave altogether. That's the problem: Our technology is not able to defend itself against the kind of magic avaible on Faerun. Yet Faerunian's with pistons and cogs can duplicate up to 4th level spells? :rolleyes: Based on that, give me a fusion reactor and gravimetric engine, and I'll duplicate Netherese enclaves, non-magically. Spells don't protect against heavy asault weapons very well either, especially when you can field tens of thousands of them. :eek: Actually according to the rules she had any counters she needed and many more. By the RAWs Karsus' spell could only work because Mystryl, for what ever reasons she had, allowed it to get this far. Acording to the "rules", Karsus did what he did because he was better and it made a good plot (well, ok, crappy plot...). There aren't rules for what he did. Karsus's Avatar could work on so many levels (not to mention its utter munchkinism factor), LORE wise and MECHANICS wise. Just because you don't like them is irrelevant. If you would actually read Mystryl's deity writeup in NEoM, it specifically states that "Mystryl could not be affected by anything but the most powerful magics", which "reached beyond the Weave and tapped the source of magic itself". Name me a spell that was more powerful than the only 12th level spell ever devised, and I might put some thought into it. The Weave (and the Shadow Weave) are not sources of magic. They simply filter raw magic. Technology will trumph magic in the end. For one universal reason: mass production. An industrial nation can craft and field more arms in a single day than faerun can produce by both mundane and magical methods in a year. It takes 10 years to train a single wizard and they're rare. It takes 1 minute to show a grunt how to point and pull the trigger and they're not rare. They're everwhere. Magic is limited in the extreme, and only to a very small percentage of a population. Technology however can be used by all.
Darrian 01-30-06, 01:02 AM	Stevieman, what do you envision the role of your PC's in this "alien invader" campaign of yours? Also, what level is the party beginning the campaign at and what level do you think will the campaign end at? Do the PC's save the day? Darrian (Tyranids would eat Faerun)
Mirtek 01-30-06, 05:45 AM	First, Second, and Third, No where is it said that "thermo nuclear ballistic missles do not work on Toril". Show us a source before stating opinion as fact. ;) Modern technology does not work on Toril. This has been stated a few times already in this thread, the source are FR supplements that state this fact (e.g. the 2e FRCS has it, and the current canon is that if something hasn't been told in 3e, then the last 2e source is still valid until a new 3e source picks the topic up) Really? It has statistics, it has a price. IT CAN BE MADE. If Lantan can do it, so can I. :cool: So you have mages on our modern earth? Capable of casting real spells? And this means what, exactly? This is 3e the OP is talking of, spout 2e elsewhere. Noone knows exactly how Karsus did it. Using the Weave is questionable on a few levels. It's more likely he simply bypassed the Weave altogether. No mortal can bypass the weave, that's actually stated in MoF. And even epic spells are still considered mortal magic, that is stated in ELH. Spells don't protect against heavy asault weapons very well either, especially when you can field tens of thousands of them. :eek: Actually yes, the do. Just become incorpereal and all this physical damage the are throwing at you will have no effect. And even if they somehow manage to destroy you, just have a nice refreshing lunch, cast annother astral projection from your secure demiplane and start a new rampage. and MECHANICS wise. Actually no, it could not have worked mechanics wise, the current mechanics at this time made this impossible. Beyond her description in N-EoM there was the standard set of deity rules (as laid down in L&L, DD, F&A, MM) which made her immune to basically anything. Even just going by her description in N-EoM, she was aware of what Karsus was doing as soon as he started to work on his spell (she most likely even knew how the spell had to completet before Karsus did) and could have stopped him at any time she wished. Don't forget that she was a CN power from Limbo, and her moods and state-of-mind varied from moment to moment,". She may have allowed the casting of the spell for reasons unknown to anyone but her (maybe she didn't even know herself why she did allow him to proceed). Anyway, a good unofficial 3.5e version of the spell can be found HERE (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=56484#56484) Technology will trumph magic in the end. Scifi technology maybe. Our current technology level won't. An industrial nation can craft and field more arms in a single day than faerun can produce by both mundane and magical methods in a year. But that doesn't help at all, if a single wizard can take out our entire civilization in a few weeks. Magic is limited in the extreme, and only to a very small percentage of a population. Technology however can be used by all. True, but only one high level caster is needed.
NightBreeze 01-30-06, 09:02 AM	Quote Mirtek :cool:
Zsych 01-30-06, 09:14 AM	Hmm... whether or not destroying avatars harms a diety is hard to say. I think that it depends on your PoV. In the first Elminster book, Mystra says that she grows weaker every time one of her avatars is destroyed. Then again, there seems to be nothing stating that the fall Divine Ranks after having loads of avatars annihilated. Still, i personally think that if a god has all avatars destroyed, it will die. (Or Finder's attack on Moander would've been meaningless) As for Mystra having absolute control of magic in her own domain. I'd personally think that she'd have no control of shadow-magic even there. And apart from that, her home is somewhere on the outer planes where native magic should be functioning fine and have no need for a Weave, so her control over magic there should basically be normal of any good(perhaps enhanced by her knowledge of weave magic, but not quite as absolute as with the Weave). Of course, she'd probably be able to transform her realm at will and would likely have a huge number of defences in place, making an attack on her hard to manage without the help of another greater god. - On the smoke powder issue, i don't think that it requires the casting of spells to make it, but i'm not sure. If it can be made without casting spells, then using it or similar magical chemicals should be no great problem for the invaders. - The epic example of Karsus Avatar mentioned, doesn't seem to follow the effects of the original Karsus Avatar. Karsus is still listed as a demi-god(or so i recall)... stuck in that time loop, reliving the fall of Netheril, so he did gain DR. In that way the spell being temporary doesn't actually matter, become a greater god, kill several other gods and absorb their essence.. and preferably kill the god who's energies you stole while you're at it :) - On the disrupting magic issue, i know a reiki healer who's healing was messing up some medical instruments. And where i can't really say anything about it, people have experimented with chi-enhancement machines that are said to work to some degree. It may well be possible for our scientists to use powerful electromagnetic waves, or something similar to disturb magical forces. Assuming that that is not possible, and you still have managed to acquire decent weaponry, or applied the mass-production and scientific PoV to things in Faerun, the problem would indeed lie in beings that cannot be harmed by non-magical means(don't lightning and stuff affect wriaths?) ... of course, you could make bullets and have them imbued with magic and then start blasting. Only need a few captive wizard slaves for that. - As for my point about nukes, or bio-chemical weapons if you don't want radiation, my point was only to say that if someone can create tsunamis and cause destruction to cities that way, then we too have weapons of mass-destruction... which would mean that neither side would use such weapons lest both worlds be destroyed.... typical cold war situation, with careful engagements, until all the high level mages serving the target regime have been assassinated :) (whereas hunting down all suit-case bombs could be quite a problem :)) Wizard shields don't seem to do too well against lots of smokepowder... so knockout gas, followed by lots of explosions will kill most mages... hard to say how well contingency spells work in such circumstances. ... stevieman69 will probably have to decide on his own. It's not like we have wizards on hand to test such ideas against :)
Mirtek 01-30-06, 09:34 AM	As for Mystra having absolute control of magic in her own domain. I'd personally think that she'd have no control of shadow-magic even there. And apart from that, her home is somewhere on the outer planes where native magic should be functioning fine and have no need for a Weave, so her control over magic there should basically be normal of any good(perhaps enhanced by her knowledge of weave magic, but not quite as absolute as with the Weave). Both Weave and Shadow Weave only exist in Realmspace, not on the planes. You are right to say that there we have the native magics of the plane itself and don't need either weave or shadow weave. The problem is that any deity is in charge of the native magics within her domain. In their realms Bane/Cyric has just as much controll over magic as Mystra has over the weave on Toril. If you use 3.X cosmology it get's even worse, as now the controll the gods have extend throughout the whole plane, not just their realms on that plane. On the smoke powder issue, i don't think that it requires the casting of spells to make it, but i'm not sure. If it can be made without casting spells, then using it or similar magical chemicals should be no great problem for the invaders. That's the point: It can't. It's a magical substance, not a chemical one and requires the item creation feats and the use of magic. So we would be reduced to capture low lvl magic users and get them to make it for us. But that means we can't use mass production. The epic example of Karsus Avatar mentioned, doesn't seem to follow the effects of the original Karsus Avatar. Karsus is still listed as a demi-god(or so i recall)... stuck in that time loop, reliving the fall of Netheril, so he did gain DR. No, he doesn't live as a demigod, he's a dead demigod and what's stuck in the timeloop is just his dead soul forever caught in the worst moment of his live. The spell did exactly what these 3e version does: tempoarirly allows the caster access to the abilities of the target deity. There was a little confusion about what the spell does in N-EoM. The spell was first talked about in the history section of the supplement. There it was clearly stated to be as I just told you. But the later rule section suddenly said the spell was permanent and makes the caster into a god. If all we had were these two entries I would have to agree, that the rule part beats the fluff part. But there was a new version of the spellrules for KA printed, even in 2e. The later version was printed in Powers&Pantheons and did agree with the fluff part of N-EoM and clearly stated that all the spell did was a temporary merge with a deity, not permanently making the caster into a deity. And that's still not all. The latest source talking about the spell was 3e Lords of Darkness, which once again confirmed that temporary nature of the spell and even added the death of the mortal caster at the end of the spells duration. In that way the spell being temporary doesn't actually matter, become a greater god, kill several other gods and absorb their essence.. and preferably kill the god who's energies you stole while you're at it :) Yes, you may use the spell to attack annother god during the duration, but killing the god you chose to merge with ends the spell immediately and kills you too (that's how Karsus died. Mystryl killed herself to end the spell earlier as intended and thus slew Karus. Not that he hadn't died even at the normal end of the duration anyway) (don't lightning and stuff affect wriaths?) Natural lightning and stuff don't, lightning and stuff caused by a spell do with a 50% change ... of course, you could make bullets and have them imbued with magic and then start blasting. Only need a few captive wizard slaves for that. That would be about the only way to do it. Although it would still be a problem to destroy anything more than the astral projections while the mages themselves are secure in their private demiplanes (note that all this is possible with "mere 9th level spells" I am not even talking about epic magic) Wizard shields don't seem to do too well against lots of smokepowder... Yes, there are quite a few magical wards you can just break through if your bang is big enough, although there are still certain protective magics that aren't so easy to go around.
Darrian 01-30-06, 01:03 PM	I am writing in response to Mirteks claim that high level wizards could lay waste to our world with 9th level and lower spells. I have looked at the spell "tidal wave" (Shining South pg 51), I cannot find "volcano" or "tsunami." This tidal wave spell, while being 9th level, is a joke. It will cause a wave 500 ft wide and 75 ft high to travel up to 1000 ft ashore. The effects of this spell would be negligible at best to any coastal city, the area encompassed would cover a few football fields in size. If there are any other 9th level or lower spells that are more destructive than the mighty "tidal wave" please list them. I am not at all impressed with the destructive force of a wizard on any city in America, please impress me. Darrian (we discuss this thread under the assumption that technology does not work in Faerun, but conversely, does magic function in our world?)
Kuje31 01-30-06, 01:15 PM	Darrian (we discuss this thread under the assumption that technology does not work in Faerun, but conversely, does magic function in our world?) On our Earth... that's debatable. :) Some believe that there is some form of magic and others, most of the civilized population, doesn't. However, in D&D's/FR's Earth is it one hundred percent official that magic does exist and it can be used by those that know how to use it. Elminster, some of the Seven Sisters, the Knights of Myth Drannor, and others have come to D&D's verson of Earth and they have been able to use magic.
Darrian 01-30-06, 01:22 PM	I am not sure that I follow Ed's logic that Faerunian magic would work on the D&D version of earth. My problem is with the "Weave," is Ed saying that the weave exists on earth? If so, how? Darrian
Kuje31 01-30-06, 01:45 PM	I am not sure that I follow Ed's logic that Faerunian magic would work on the D&D version of earth. My problem is with the "Weave," is Ed saying that the weave exists on earth? If so, how? Darrian Why would it be a problem? The Weave ONLY exists in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun, depending on which sourcebook you want to read. However, magic still exists on the planes, other crystal spheres/prime material planes, etc, without the Weave/Shadow Weave. Earth would be one of the crystal spheres/prime material planes that doesn't have Mystra's Weave or Shar's Shadow Weave.
Zsych 01-30-06, 03:21 PM	@Mirtek: The Shadow-weave seems not to be limited to Toril, or even just the plane of Shadow. If you go by the Realms of Shadow anthology, Melegaunt says that it works in the Nine Hells as well, though the Devils are quite adept at bashing shadow-weave users(no doubt means that there are some cool anti-shadow magic spells there waiting to be learnt). ... Which is why i suspect that Shadow-magic might also exist elsewhere, outside of Toril, just like normal magic does without the weave. As for Karsus' Avatar, i don't think that dying is actually a part of the spell description, even if Karsus expected to die from it(there must've been a reasonable chance of something going wrong). As for the target diety dying, killing the caster... Mystryl's death killed magic and thus disrupted Karsus' spell. There's no way to say whether the death of any other diety targeted would've had the same effect on the caster. After all of the target diety's power has been absorbed, killing it and taking it's essence should be a minor problem(though killing other gods might still be a better idea... would take preperation though) @Kuje31: Most of the civilized population doesn't?
Kuje31 01-30-06, 03:31 PM	@Kuje31: Most of the civilized population doesn't? Yes..... Most of the civilized populations of our Earth do not believe in magic or magick except for stage magic but this is really getting off topic. :)
Zsych 01-30-06, 04:57 PM	What's your definition of civilized? :) Hmm... stage magic... remember David Copperfield's Walking Through the Great Wall of China? That was bloody cool... I can understand part of that being doable, but the hands coming out of the wall thing... :)
Karsus the Mad 01-30-06, 08:59 PM	Modern technology does not work on Toril. This has been stated a few times already in this thread, the source are FR supplements that state this fact (e.g. the 2e FRCS has it, and the current canon is that if something hasn't been told in 3e, then the last 2e source is still valid until a new 3e source picks the topic up) So the mundane train using a mundane steam engine in Lantan doesn't exist? Printing presses don't work? Lantan doesn't produce mundane steamworks? Lantan isn't building a non-magical teleportation system? These are all modern technologies in Faerun (modern in Faerunian terms). And Lantan is pushing technology further everyday (especially with the possibility of their non-magical portal). Realmspace technology may be different than what you or I think, and our technology may not work in Realmspace (possible difference in planar mechanics I guess) but it's non-magical technology none the less (sometimes mixed), and unless it specifically states "In Realmspace technology cannot be advanced past such and such level.", stating that a native race of the same material plane as Toril can't ever progress to a technological level that can only be described in terms of "futuristic" is merely moot (since the chap has decided that it can and has). Where does it say anything about a race not being able to reach an equal (or greater) level of technological progress in Realmspace? A gnome artificer is capable of crafting a non-magical, purely mundane, technological item that shoots lightning bolts, yet it's not feasible a race can reach even greater technological levels? So you have mages on our modern earth? Capable of casting real spells? Nope, and neither are we discussing what earth humans can do. My Lantanese npc, on the other hand, is a master of gadgets and gears ;) And the Faerunian version of gunpowder may be the magical smokepowder in MoF, but why would an advanced race even use physical missile weapons? A species technologically advanced and psionically adept enough to send a star fleet to Faerun wouldn't be using medieval firearms. They'd be using energy based weapons (laser cannons, plasma bombs, gravimetric shielding, etc, etc.). Toss in some psionically enhanced weapons into the mix.....hmmmm.... No mortal can bypass the weave, that's actually stated in MoF. And even epic spells are still considered mortal magic, that is stated in ELH. Actually, it gives two ways of bypassing the Weave. There's one mechanical way: SW. There's also raw magic (tho' exceptionally dangerous) and no rules on accessing it are available. Just that it's a possibility. Actually yes, the do. Just become incorpereal and all this physical damage the are throwing at you will have no effect. And even if they somehow manage to destroy you, just have a nice refreshing lunch, cast annother astral projection from your secure demiplane and start a new rampage. Indeed a good point. Problem, unless you're like me and are pretty loose with interpretations. The description of astral projection makes it seem like the caster is required to be on the material plane. Good tactic either way tho'. And how many spell slots would a wizard need to be able to do all this to the point that it would actually be effective against invaders? Actually no, it could not have worked mechanics wise, the current mechanics at this time made this impossible. Beyond her description in N-EoM there was the standard set of deity rules (as laid down in L&L, DD, F&A, MM) which made her immune to basically anything. Even just going by her description in N-EoM, she was aware of what Karsus was doing as soon as he started to work on his spell (she most likely even knew how the spell had to completet before Karsus did) and could have stopped him at any time she wished. Immune to all but the most powerful magics. Convert Mystryl to 3e, and it makes it even more easy. She would only know of it being cast, and have power over it, if it used the Weave. As to knowing of the spell, yes. Knowing what it was going to be used for is something else. Despite being CN, she still tried to do what she thought was right. I'm not sure about you, but knowingly (and willingly) allowing my largest worship base (as well as being innocent) to die, simply due to a single, deranged human makes far less sense than Mystryl simply not having known. And if she deemed the Netherese deserved death, why then did Mystra turn around and save the 3 enclaves? Don't forget that she was a CN power from Limbo, and her moods and state-of-mind varied from moment to moment,". She may have allowed the casting of the spell for reasons unknown to anyone but her (maybe she didn't even know herself why she did allow him to proceed). Possible. We don't know. It's also possible she simply didn't know, and only realized what was happening after it was cast, and killed herself simply because she hadn't expected it or planned for it. Anyway, a good unofficial 3.5e version of the spell can be found HERE (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=56484#56484) I like the inversed ward. Same thing I did with a deity imprisoning spell. Sneaky way of getting around a deity's imprisonment immunity. Scifi technology maybe. Our current technology level won't. Luckily for the invaders they're not using our technology. They're using their own technology, and it's far more advanced. But that doesn't help at all, if a single wizard can take out our entire civilization in a few weeks. And luckily our civilization isn't attacking Faerun ;) . It's a civilization that's psionically adept, and technologically superior. I get the image of a Vorlon-like race. True, but only one high level caster is needed. And only one high level manifester is needed to counter him/her (is this a race of psions, or is it like magic on Toril, in that only a few gifted individuals ever reach any highscale level of power?). If the invaders are an entire race of psions, it's only reasonable to assume that they have a far larger number of high level manifestors than Toril has of high level wizards. Natural lightning and stuff don't, lightning and stuff caused by a spell do with a 50% change Just attack during the day. Wraiths wouldn't be a problem then. I am writing in response to Mirteks claim that high level wizards could lay waste to our world with 9th level and lower spells. I have looked at the spell "tidal wave" (Shining South pg 51), I cannot find "volcano" or "tsunami." This tidal wave spell, while being 9th level, is a joke. It will cause a wave 500 ft wide and 75 ft high to travel up to 1000 ft ashore. The effects of this spell would be negligible at best to any coastal city, the area encompassed would cover a few football fields in size. If there are any other 9th level or lower spells that are more destructive than the mighty "tidal wave" please list them. I am not at all impressed with the destructive force of a wizard on any city in America, please impress me. I was thinking the same thing. It's simply too localized to have any real affect. Lots of castings would be required. An epic version would work excellently. But then what use is a tidal wave cast on Faerun, when the fleet of enemy ships is orbiting the planet, out of reach of virtually any spell cast by someone on the planet, and able to unleash a barage upon targets on the planet. Of course a wizard could use magic to protect himself from the vacuum of space, teleport near a ship, and unleash what he's got. Even then tho', a spell doesn't last forever (tho' a nice persistant enhanced spell would be more than good enough). But then, psionics. Dispel his persistant spell. Or surround the fleet in an epic power that blocks teleporting, etc. I think more than likely it'd be a war of attrition. Would Toril's deities get involved? A united Faerunian pantheon against the invaders=no more invaders. Or even more, if it threatens Toril itself, the Faerunian, Elven, Celestial Beurocracy, Dwarven, etc, etc pantheons all together...
Agent_of_the_Crown 01-31-06, 01:03 AM	I can't believe how long this thread has gone on, but I will put in my two cents worth. If I remember correctly, the original poster said something about the invaders having a technology level roughly similiar to that of Starship Troopers. This would preclude all of the Star Trek super sci-fi stuff. Also, to hopefully end the debate about technology on Toril, if this alien race invading Toril with is science is "THE PREMISE" of the campaign then of course it will work. It would be a pretty lame campaign idea if the whole plot revolved around the aliens arriving and finding none of their stuff worked! I believe that Magic would give a tremendous edge to those powerful figures who can use it, and please let us remember that not every mage on Toril is a 17th+ level Wizard living in a demi-plane, Astrally Projecting into the world. Of course this is powerful, but you don't see it too often in novels or gaming materials. The spells are there, but that doesn't mean every high level wizard knows them or uses them. The invaders would have the advantage of mass produced technology that would overcome most conventional resistance. This would leave only the powerful spellcasters and those with equally powerful magic gear as prime threats. The invaders would have to develop some protection against extra-planar movement of all sorts in order to be effective. One thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread yet is the dangers of the Underdark. Imagine the invaders somehow subjugated the surface of Toril and held much of the population in thrall. Then would come the long ugly campaign of trying to clear out the Underdark, and the might starships in space won't be providing much support...thankfully Mobile Infantryman have nukes the size of softballs!
Karsus the Mad 01-31-06, 02:32 AM	guerilla warfare against underdark races=ouch.
Zsych 01-31-06, 07:19 AM	There is a reason that swords are no longer in use. The average party of drow will likely have a few fighters and a cleric or wizard of fairly low level. You could just pump large amounts of poison gas into the tunnels to clean out most of your opponents. Little robots(or just remote controlled (toy size)tanks and the like), that carry guns and explode will take care of the rest. Especially if you send in large numbers. ... I'm seeing armies of toy tanks with lasers cutting through drow forces. Their numbers uncountable... Sooner or later most of the mages will run out of spells... Mass production rules! ... though of course, there is the question of whether the aliens would really bother. They're coming to acquire magic, not conquer all of Toril.
Karsus the Mad 01-31-06, 11:25 AM	There is a reason that swords are no longer in use. The average party of drow will likely have a few fighters and a cleric or wizard of fairly low level. You could just pump large amounts of poison gas into the tunnels to clean out most of your opponents. Little robots(or just remote controlled (toy size)tanks and the like), that carry guns and explode will take care of the rest. Especially if you send in large numbers. ... I'm seeing armies of toy tanks with lasers cutting through drow forces. Their numbers uncountable... Sooner or later most of the mages will run out of spells... Mass production rules! ... though of course, there is the question of whether the aliens would really bother. They're coming to acquire magic, not conquer all of Toril. True enough. In certain scenario's (depending on the mindset of the invaders really...they may be alien invaders, but are they barbaric murderers?). They may not wish to simply kill everything. They may have morals (or not), and only wish to fight to the point they win, and not cause additional collateral damage beyond that which happens during any kind of conflict. Or, then, they can be rather brutal (as portrayed in classic scifi aliens) and merely kill everything in sight. Also, depending on how much casualties they themselves take in their battles for the surface also dictates whether they would have sufficient forces to handle the underdark (the aliens have afterall, come in limited number of ships, and each ship can only carry so many troops, etc, but that's up to the DM to work out:P). And of course, as you pointed out, would they actually bother?:) Mass production indeed rules. :cool:
Darrian 01-31-06, 12:34 PM	Hey Stevieman69. If you do go ahead with your campaign idea, please keep us posted as to how it progresses. I am assuming the party will be essential to saving the day and driving the alien invaders away. I would love to know how it all works out. Darrian
Mirtek 01-31-06, 05:08 PM	I am writing in response to Mirteks claim that high level wizards could lay waste to our world with 9th level and lower spells. I have looked at the spell "tidal wave" (Shining South pg 51), I cannot find "volcano" or "tsunami." This tidal wave spell, while being 9th level, is a joke. It will cause a wave 500 ft wide and 75 ft high to travel up to 1000 ft ashore. The effects of this spell would be negligible at best to any coastal city, the area encompassed would cover a few football fields in size. If there are any other 9th level or lower spells that are more destructive than the mighty "tidal wave" please list them. I am not at all impressed with the destructive force of a wizard on any city in America, please impress me. Both spells appeared on the WotC homepage. Also a 75 ft high wave would be utterly deavasting to any coastal city if applied to RL. The tsunami that claimed thousands of lives a little over a year ago wasn't even 75 ft high. Only because the magic does only sustain the wave up to 1,000 ft ashore doesn't mean that all water simply vanishes at this point, but just that the form of the wave will crush. So much about translating the devasting effects to RL. Or we base this entirely on game rules, but in this case we would be even more at a disadvantage as we all are merely 1st-4th level here in earth, as we die from such minor things as being shoot with a gun, while a FR character would only take 1d6 damage and be totall unhindered by his wound.
Karsus the Mad 01-31-06, 08:42 PM	Both spells appeared on the WotC homepage. Also a 75 ft high wave would be utterly deavasting to any coastal city if applied to RL. The tsunami that claimed thousands of lives a little over a year ago wasn't even 75 ft high. Only because the magic does only sustain the wave up to 1,000 ft ashore doesn't mean that all water simply vanishes at this point, but just that the form of the wave will crush. So much about translating the devasting effects to RL. Or we base this entirely on game rules, but in this case we would be even more at a disadvantage as we all are merely 1st-4th level here in earth, as we die from such minor things as being shoot with a gun, while a FR character would only take 1d6 damage and be totall unhindered by his wound. Don't know about you, but most of the beaches I've been to around the world are far larger than 500 ft wide (and many far larger than 1,000ft inland). The damage would be negligable in RL, and would only affect dinky hamlets directly on the coastal waters. A REAL 75 ft. high tidal wave (75ft at the time it came ashore) would be devastating, but, at 500ft wide, it's effect would be negligible. As the spell states, it's 75ft high, and at a MAX of 1,000ft inland. That's not 1,000 ft and then the wave naturally degrades, that's 1,000ft in which it has degraded to nothing (so in actuality, it probably began degrading at around 250-350ft). And 500 ft wide is a joke. That's not even a block wide. The *tsunami* (a tsunami is not a tidal wave) of a year ago (or are you talking of the *hurricane that hit the gulf?) was a LOT larger than 500 ft wide (multiply it by a few factors of 10), and swept inland a LOT more than 1,000 ft. A 500ft wide, 75ft high, 1,000ft long tidal wave is devastating within a 500ft wide, 75ft high, 1,000ft long area. That's barely a modern warehouse, let alone any kind of settlement (unless, again, you're talking of hamlets, which contribute nothing significant to any specific end for any first world nation, thus are negligible losses and serve only really annoy a population). For a city like Hong Kong or New York, I doubt a 75ft high, 500ft wide, 1,000ft deep tidal wave would even make the news with more than a paragraph statement. Take in mind that 500ft wide is less than 1/10 of a mile (most people walk more than this every morning to get a cup of coffee before work), 1,000ft deep is less than 1/5 a mile inland. Again, most beaches are larger. The Tidal Wave spell is for D&D and medieval scale, which would be horrible, since it could in fact wipe out most settlements, in a medieval hamlet. You'll have to use epic spells to do anything effective against modern earth settlements that are measured in square miles rather than feet. There certainly are spells that would be effective on a largescale, but tidal wave isn't one of them. Meteor Swarm in downtown metropolis would be more devastating (but still negligible losses in terms of people, materials, capabilities, etc). While a technologically advanced weapon (Starship Trooper portable nuke?) would wipe out any city on Faerun, and can be issued to invading soldiers by the hundreds (if not thousands). Or simply barage from orbit. Drop a few big bombs and there went Waterdeep, Calimport, Silverymoon, Skuld, Unthalass, Suzail, etc. Send in a few squads to each bombsite, each squad with at least 1 medium-high level psion along to counter any survivors that might have magic.
Darrian 02-01-06, 07:19 AM	Stevieman69, I think the only "workable" solution to the "alien invader" campaign is to ignore ED's claim that technology does not work in Faerun. Unless you do that, your campaign will be crippled and the invaders will be a minor nuisance at best. Having ignored Ed's claim, you can have the threat that the world, and most importantly, your players will have to face. I love Starship Troopers, I think Heinlien's examle of a future earth is perfect. We should be so lucky to eventually live in such a society. I watched the movie again yesterday, and realized that the army sent to Klandathu had around 2,000,000 mobile infantry. An invasion force that large would simply overwhelm Faerun. It is larger than the combined standing armies of all of Faeruns Human kingdoms. You will have to tone it down for your campaign or Faerun will be easily crushed. Darrian ("Do you want to know more?")
Mirtek 02-01-06, 11:29 AM	Well, if you don't fear my killer waves, I can only say Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD, page 85). 10-mile per casterlevel, so we're speaking of total annihilation (with a little metamgic added) of everything within at least 180 miles :eek:
Karsus the Mad 02-01-06, 11:31 AM	Stevieman69, I think the only "workable" solution to the "alien invader" campaign is to ignore ED's claim that technology does not work in Faerun. Unless you do that, your campaign will be crippled and the invaders will be a minor nuisance at best. Having ignored Ed's claim, you can have the threat that the world, and most importantly, your players will have to face. I love Starship Troopers, I think Heinlien's examle of a future earth is perfect. We should be so lucky to eventually live in such a society. I watched the movie again yesterday, and realized that the army sent to Klandathu had around 2,000,000 mobile infantry. An invasion force that large would simply overwhelm Faerun. It is larger than the combined standing armies of all of Faeruns Human kingdoms. You will have to tone it down for your campaign or Faerun will be easily crushed. Darrian ("Do you want to know more?") I agree with you. While I don't like to contradict Ed, still, define "technology". If "technology" didn't work, then frankly, swords wouldn't cut, houses wouldn't exist, bow & arrows wouldn't fire, ships wouldn't float, lamps wouldn't burn and provide light, foods wouldn't be cooked, etc. All these things are technology. All of them work on specific scientific principles discovered by lifeforms to make life easier, and all of them work on Faerun. Then there's Lantan, which has steam technology, firearms (even tho' they use magical smokepowder), clockwork mechanics (technology), and are currently working on a technological portal...I find it strange that technology doesn't work, yet technology is used by every single npc and pc alike in Faerun, and in some locations (Lantan specifically), technology has been advanced beyond our own (in certain fields). Even Magic is technology. Now whether or not my laptop would work is questionable (how would I connect to the net?). But that's earth technology, not Forgotten Realms technology.
Karsus the Mad 02-01-06, 11:39 AM	Well, if you don't fear my killer waves, I can only say Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD, page 85). 10-mile per casterlevel, so we're speaking of total annihilation (with a little metamgic added) of everything within at least 180 miles :eek: Now, you see, THAT would be devastating! :eek: :evillaugh :plotting: :surrender :OMG! YES. That's what Faerun needs to fight technologically advanced races. It's cheesy, but big boom DOES work when the enemy multiplies like rabbits:D I haven't seen that spell (don't have the book), but 180 miles? Shooooooooooooooooot, good bye metropolis.
Kuje31 02-01-06, 11:44 AM	Give me a break, some of you are truely not reading what some of us have said. We said that FR's physics does not allow technology that operates on electronics to work and we didn't say that ALL technology doesn't work. Also gunpowder doesn't work either. Both of these references can be found in the 1e and 2e campaign box set. 2e's reference is on page 9 of Running the Realms. So, no modern to advanced tech because even advanced tech uses electronics as far as we've seen. Basically Ed wanted to keep sci-fi out of his fantasy.
stevieman69 02-01-06, 11:55 AM	Ok I’m back but check it out I have a little problem with getting the campaign started, its because I’m in Iraq right now and going to be here for about a year so I’ve got a long time to think it threw and make it perfect. I know the players back home will enjoy this very much, they are easily amused. The campaign will start out like any other campaign just another day in Faerun. I was thinking about 5th or 6th level before any of the player should know of any threat. At first the player will be doing a lot of running and hide, try to survive the alien attack and the everyday Faerun threats. After that being said someone or something will contact the players that will send them on a mission to contact ??????? Well I have a lot of blank spot but this is just the beginning of a long campaign like I said I got a year the to work on this and the players will be epic when this over. O yeah the alien race, ok more then likely Lawful Evil, genetic cast system means that everyone is genetically made to perform certain duty, pison powers but only the high up have them, similar to human, ten finger ten toes etc. Why are they here: to obtain power magic item, to study the genetic blue print of the elves, human, dwarfs, and orcs and add to the genetic pool(they are not born but made). To destroy anything that could be a threat. Any more idea??????????????????????
Old Sage 02-01-06, 11:57 AM	I agree with you. While I don't like to contradict Ed, still, define "technology". If "technology" didn't work, then frankly, swords wouldn't cut, houses wouldn't exist, bow & arrows wouldn't fire, ships wouldn't float, lamps wouldn't burn and provide light, foods wouldn't be cooked, etc. All these things are technology.Huh? You're combining several different eras of technological development into one horrible mish-mash. It's not an appropriate comparison. There is a technological limit to the Realms... Ed has already said this -- fantasy-"tech" -- in terms of developments utilising scientific theories prevalent for the time period of the Realms -- is all you're likely to ever see. Modern-to-advanced tech is a no-no.
NightBreeze 02-01-06, 01:33 PM	Let's assume that modern tecnology really works on Faerun (there would be no sense speaking about this otherwise) and that invaders aren't afraid to use atomic bombs. Probably most of the faerun states and cities will be destroyed in a day, however there are too many wizard that can hide anywhere they want and there would be absolutely no way to stop them from annihilating our world and the invading army.
NightBreeze 02-01-06, 02:11 PM	There's a little problem with Apocalypse from the sky: It really seems an uber epic spell (dealing 10d6 to anything in a 10-mile radius, leveling forests and wiping out populations, however it requires the destrucion of an artifact and it deals damage and drains wisdom and costitution. A 20 level caster doesn't need sucha spell to wipe out a country: the only thing he needs is to repeat some 8 - 9 lvl spells and to use somo of those hilarius desease spells witch spread out soooooooooooo fast.
Darrian 02-01-06, 03:01 PM	The destruction of an artifact. Did you say the destruction of an artifact? I am sure that is no problem in some DM's game, but in mine, that is just about impossible to do. First of all, I almost never allow my players to come into contact with artifacts and if they do contact one, it is almost guaranteed to be lost. If I remember correctly, destroying an artifact is a pretty good way to incur the wrath of a deity. Darrian (all I need is an artifact)
Mirtek 02-01-06, 04:54 PM	The destruction of an artifact. Did you say the destruction of an artifact? I am sure that is no problem in some DM's game, but in mine, that is just about impossible to do. First of all, I almost never allow my players to come into contact with artifacts and if they do contact one, it is almost guaranteed to be lost. If I remember correctly, destroying an artifact is a pretty good way to incur the wrath of a deity. Darrian (all I need is an artifact) Who says that the PCs are supposed to use it? Guys like Larloch and the other ancient liches are the ones we can expect to use this kind of magic
Karsus the Mad 02-02-06, 08:22 AM	Give me a break, some of you are truely not reading what some of us have said. We said that FR's physics does not allow technology that operates on electronics to work and we didn't say that ALL technology doesn't work. Also gunpowder doesn't work either. Both of these references can be found in the 1e and 2e campaign box set. 2e's reference is on page 9 of Running the Realms. So, no modern to advanced tech because even advanced tech uses electronics as far as we've seen. Basically Ed wanted to keep sci-fi out of his fantasy. We have read it, it's just that Stevieman has already said technology does work in his game, so there simply isn't reason to say it doesn't. In his game there is a race that is technologically advanced. Saying it won't work is moot, since it does. Off topic, but interested: Anyhoo, thanks for the references Kuje. I won't have access to my books back in the states for a very long time to come, so can't check. Is that Faerun specific or in general for the entire material plane? Does it explain why (such as magic interferes with such things, etc?). Huh? You're combining several different eras of technological development into one horrible mish-mash. It's not an appropriate comparison. There is a technological limit to the Realms... Ed has already said this -- fantasy-"tech" -- in terms of developments utilising scientific theories prevalent for the time period of the Realms -- is all you're likely to ever see. Modern-to-advanced tech is a no-no. This chap has an alien invasion game in which there is a technologically advanced species. So yeah, advanced tech is in because he's the dm and has said so. Yeah, it's a horrible mishmash. It was meant to be rediculous, just as it's rediculous to keep stating that something won't work in someone elses game, when the dm of that game has already decided it will. Steam engines, light activated traps, matter displacement, lightning weapons, etc are considered technology "prevalent for the time period" of the Realms? O yeah the alien race, ok more then likely Lawful Evil, genetic cast system means that everyone is genetically made to perform certain duty, pison powers but only the high up have them, similar to human, ten finger ten toes etc. Why are they here: to obtain power magic item, to study the genetic blue print of the elves, human, dwarfs, and orcs and add to the genetic pool(they are not born but made). To destroy anything that could be a threat. Any more idea?????????????????????? Since they're masters of genetic manipulation, maybe their technology is based around that, rather than conventional understanding of technology. Techno-organic ships (partially artificial, partially organic), etc.
Kuje31 02-02-06, 10:58 AM	We have read it, it's just that Stevieman has already said technology does work in his game, so there simply isn't reason to say it doesn't. In his game there is a race that is technologically advanced. Saying it won't work is moot, since it does. Off topic, but interested: Anyhoo, thanks for the references Kuje. I won't have access to my books back in the states for a very long time to come, so can't check. Is that Faerun specific or in general for the entire material plane? Does it explain why (such as magic interferes with such things, etc?). This chap has an alien invasion game in which there is a technologically advanced species. So yeah, advanced tech is in because he's the dm and has said so. Yeah, it's a horrible mishmash. It was meant to be rediculous, just as it's rediculous to keep stating that something won't work in someone elses game, when the dm of that game has already decided it will. Steam engines, light activated traps, matter displacement, lightning weapons, etc are considered technology "prevalent for the time period" of the Realms? Just as it's just as rediculous to keep going, "What did Ed mean by technology?" You asked and we answered, if you didn't like the answer, don't ask silly questions. And I gave you the answer above, it says the physic's of the Forgotten Realms.
Darrian 02-02-06, 03:36 PM	Stevieman, please disregard the nay-sayers on this thread. Go with the campaign idea that you are working on and, most importantly, make sure that your players have fun. Some posters here have an unnatural attachment to the Forgotten Realms and fail to realize that your FR campaign is YOUR FR campaign. I promise you that Mr Greenwood will not show up to any of your games to reprimand you for not running YOUR campaign his way. Darrian (Have fun)
Old Sage 02-02-06, 08:04 PM	Stevieman, please disregard the nay-sayers on this thread. Go with the campaign idea that you are working on and, most importantly, make sure that your players have fun. Some posters here have an unnatural attachment to the Forgotten Realms and fail to realize that your FR campaign is YOUR FR campaign. I promise you that Mr Greenwood will not show up to any of your games to reprimand you for not running YOUR campaign his way. Darrian (Have fun)I don't have any problem with how Stevieman wishes to run his own campaign... as it is *his* campaign. My problem with this thread was Karsus the Mad's discussion about how Ed defines technology in the Realms. That's my only dispute here... nothing else.
Old Sage 02-02-06, 08:08 PM	This chap has an alien invasion game in which there is a technologically advanced species. So yeah, advanced tech is in because he's the dm and has said so. Yeah, it's a horrible mishmash. It was meant to be rediculous, just as it's rediculous to keep stating that something won't work in someone elses game, when the dm of that game has already decided it will. Steam engines, light activated traps, matter displacement, lightning weapons, etc are considered technology "prevalent for the time period" of the Realms?I didn't say it wouldn't work in someone else's campaign, I was merely re-addressing your point about how Ed defines the terms of technology for the official Realms campaign. The point is still valid in that regard.
Kuje31 02-02-06, 08:18 PM	What Old Sage said stands for me as well.
Gellion 02-02-06, 09:52 PM	Have the invaders get some Tinker Gnomes and Kender from Krynn and unleash them upon Toril. There will be mushroom clouds all across Toril in less than a day. :D In a war with Earth, all Earth would have to do is send in Chuck Norris and all of Toril would be depopulated in less than a picosecond, including the gods and AO.
GothicDan 02-02-06, 11:52 PM	One thing that the assumption/change of technology working in Realmspace fails to take into account is the inevitable reverse engineering that such a change would indicate. There are nations and cultures on Faerun that have been 'civilized,' intelligent, and highly capable for many times the lifespans of modern technologically-advanced nations. Do you think that if technology/electricity had always worked in FR that we wouldn't have ridiculously advanced science being utilized by Torillians already? As an example: Simply put, Sun Elves have a very scientific mindset, and they are all innately more intelligent than any human being on Earth (due to the +2 to Int), and they are known for being innovators and shakers despite the consequences. And they have lore and magic preserved from tens of thousands of years ago. Can you imagine the sort of magic-enhanced technology, say, the High Magi would have access to in this version of FR? So, you wouldn't just have Magic vs. High Tech, you would have Magic and High Tech vs. simply High Tech. Or you could do the 3E thing and simply retcon it and ignore all of the logical conclusions that such a decision would make.
Darrian 02-03-06, 12:32 AM	Come on GD, everyone knows that Retconning is always the best solution. It is quick, easy and you never have to waste time explaining inconsistencies. :rant: Darrian (hates retcon)
Karsus the Mad 02-03-06, 11:54 AM	I doubt the elves would bother advancing beyond the standard (but then, I've never been partially fond of elves with ak's <shrugs>...). They simply have no need. They're masters in the technologies they use and need (crafting, ship building, arms and armor smithing, etc). Faerunians dependency (and great skill with) magic makes the need to advance technology moot. They simply have no need to develop something they can do with magic. In the few instances where technology would be better, you have it. This is mainly primitive technologies such as the waterwheel, and whatnot, as is befitting the time-period of the campaign. And there is one place in which the people use technology to solve their problems instead of magic. Lantan, and it is technologically advanced (in regards to the rest of the setting), and they do it partially from their reverence to Gond, and partially through simple love of tinkering. They have no real need to develop technology, and could just as easily use magic instead like everyone else. But another world on the prime material (or wherever these aliens are from) who lacks magic altogether would have an actual need to find some other way of accomplishing the same effect: technology, in all it's various and quirky forms. I think they'd probably have been wiped out by the various magically skilled spelljamming races before they could advance to a point where they could think of expansion, but eh. Doesn't matter whether electronics work or not, as they'd simply evolve technology via a different basis, and achieve the same end result, as need dictates, possibly utilizing psionically enhanced technology when mundane doesn't work. Miniature gears and pistons powered by minute steamworks, or something clucky like that (meh, Gondar sponsored gnomes are working on a technological portal, so there went any limits on the potential of steamwork technology). I don't see how simple electricity (as opposed to complex electronic) based technology can't work since an artificer can craft a mundane item that shoots lightning bolts (how'd he harness and store the potential difference if it's not possible to begin with?). Luckily Forgotten Realms technology doesn't depend upon physical law, or those laws are so out of whack with our own that it's simply impossible to deem what is and isn't possible :P The physics may be different, but the alien invaders obviously developed technology in accordance with those laws. It'd make for an ingame explanation, especially if the players are used to the standard FR style, if the need of an explanation ever arose.
GothicDan 02-03-06, 12:30 PM	Fantasy/Sci-Fi literature and RPGs is rife with magic and technology combining. And remember, that at the highest levels, purely intellectual affairs (such as science) rarely arisely out of 'need.' Their research and fabrication are aided by need, but the interest in them is not necessarily based solely upon it. Sun Elves always seek to better themselves and their People; they have a very methodical, scientific mindset. I see no reason why they would deign to ignore such cerebral pursuits because they had no "need," especially with their 800+ year lifespans. And there's the Gnomes, of course.
Zsych 02-04-06, 08:08 PM	We humans have been around, for what... 100000+ years, possibly more(i recall something about a serious decimation of the human race around that point, so that genetic deviation in the population is around a 100k years worth... mostly seen in Africa, the other races being younger). In all that time there seems to be no evidence that our type of technology came into being. Many basic technological principles seem to have been learned, but the individual civilizations took them all with them to their graves, until the latter day Greeks and Romans, leading to the Muslims, leading to the renaissance, leading to us. It is because knowledge survived, and perhaps because much of the religeous mind-set(god just made things this way) vanished that all of the various branches of science managed to come together to the point of being useful. (Not to mention the need for advanced math) The Sun elves could well have lived for millenia and never achieved anything of worth. In all likelihood their schooling is magic based, so they start looking at the world from that perspective. What study of the world they do, they do through magic. Learning and combining the principles of science would require that someone consider them worthwhile and give them priority in children's early learning(perhaps over magic). I don't really see that happening with mages. .. Also what does get developed, and what individuals develop depends on their own interests. In a supposedly civilized culture, where life is easy, most people do stuff that is culturally appreciated. Only a few eccentrics look into alternates(like people studying magic in our world).. and it's not exactly something that leaves most people feeling who base their self-respect on others' opinions, feeling very good :) - If magical tech did develop in Faerun, it would probably take Netheril's route with mythallar(the magical equivalent of electricity), or heavy magic for powering magical items. It'd depend on the actual laws of magic and whether there are alternates to the mythallar and heavy magic possible at lower levels of magic, and without the star metal that Karsus used to create his materialized magic. ... Also, it is suspected that we would not be growing so fast, in the way that we are growing because of the nature of current-day economics. People who actually had the easy-life, and hadn't developed the kind of culture we have, may never grow very far(it's not like we actually need most of the stuff we create, or are really made much happier by it.. culturally we've started to want many things that we don't need and can live without). ... that means that the pious lot, who live their lives peacefully going about their worship, and casual studies, would only create limited technology and be satisfied, perhaps occasionally creating something better. Probably the only way Faerun is ever going to have a technological culture is if the limits on magic are lifted and someone finds the Nether scrolls again :) ... or if the Shades start raising a few more enclaves and people start seeing the easier life-style, while seperated from Telamont's absolute demand for maintaining his strict society(which was mostly an adaptation to the hard life on the Shadow plane) Then again, heavy magic itself might be enough too, as a way to power magical items and spells(possibly without Mystra knowing what is being done, since the heavy magic is a new substance created using the weave, but no longer drawing power from it. If heavy magic were to power spells, then like the water used in our generators being seperated from the electricity generated, a magical item no longer drawing power from the weave would be beyond Mystra's sight)
Karsus the Mad 02-04-06, 09:32 PM	I was thinking something similar (on the elves part). In FR, at least, if the elves could (or more accurately, desired to) develop technology they would have. Nothing is stopping them from developing and applying similar technology as found in Lantan (steamworks, clockwork mechanics, etc) except their mindset. Even if they do understand the principles behind something like a steam engine, what possible benefits would the elven way of life gain from it, other than a noisy, cluncky, crude oddity? What reason would they have to actually develop and apply it?. Like spells, technology isn't devised instantly. It's built upon previous inventions, improving the old and making it something new. You can't improve the old if you never developed it and applied it to begin with. Since they haven't, it can be assumed they simply lack the desire to do so (turning their interests more towards poetry, lore, magic, etc in which they have advanced at). They seem to be the more conservative race on Toril and combined with their pro-elven bias, it would be a large hinderence on any "scientific" developments. I think it likely that elves would view technology as an abomination (not hating it, but perhaps not trusting it, thinking of it as manipulating nature instead of living in harmony with it, etc). Whereas with gnomes, who seem to be the least conservative (in terms of mindset) combined with their natural curiousity of such things (and of course the strong Gond faith), it would be a large boost on any "scientific" developments (case in point, gnomes are the most technologically adept of the races).
GothicDan 02-05-06, 12:48 PM	Remember that scientists are often the most conservative of people, tradition-wise. And it's that conservatism that is both a hindrance and a boon.
jemmerx 02-09-06, 12:49 PM	First off, thanks for a pretty good idea, Stevieman! I have vaguely similar invasion happening in my FR campaign except that it begins on an overgod level. Yes, some evil overdiety is trying to usurp Ao's throne. He comes fully equipped with a pantheon of dieties to keep the Realmsiam dieties busy and the mortal armies are (unbeknownst to the PCs and pretty much all of the Realms) flooding into Faerun. Of course, I just ruined the plot of my campaign if any of my players are reading this but I'll chance it. The idea here is that the sway of power comes from the lowest tier of combat. The dieties gain or lose power based on the outcome of the mortal war (that is being staged as we speak) and the overgods will gain advantage as thier dieties gain or lose portfolios (or life as may be the case.) But getting back to the thread, I like the idea of a technologically advanced race invading the Realms. I prefer a more Independence Day kind of alien motivation for taking over, or even one of territorial expansion. Going after magic seems redundant seeing as a sufficiently advance civilization may not see the benefit of learning the slower much much more complicated ways of magic. -------------- My take on the factors that would sway the war in favor of the invading aliens: - The objectives of the invading aliens. - An advanced alien race will have all forms of tactics to go with their technology. These include psychological warfare. - The invaders will have a certain amount of intelligence gathered on Faerun. This will give them, at the very least, the approximate size of the Realms and population, technological level and at least knowledge of this force called magic (if they haven't run into magic in ealier conquests.) They would have to be prepared to handle a certain amount of population prior to undertaking such a large task as invading a world. - Being that Faerun is being invaded, the Faerunians are fighting on the defensive. Each victory or loss adding to the damage to Faerun making the lives of the defenders that much more difficult as time goes on. The invaders have established supply lines prior to the invasion. - The invaders are a unified whole. Faerun will be an unwary, for the most part anyway, divided continent. - Most, if not all, evil characters and nations will most likely not fight immediately unless directly attacked. In any case, these evil characters certainly won't come to the rescue of their enemy cities. Until demonstrated that they are also threatened the old addage would apply: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." - A simultaneous attack similar to ID4 would make it difficult to mount an effective defense when the defensive front is so divided. This isn't a case of the old style of warfare where everyone lines up! - Divinations will only get you so far. Divinations are supposed to be cryptic and general. There is a large possibility that with the psychology of the alien invaders and the unorthodox methods of attack (at least from a Faerunian's point of view) most diviners wouldn't necessarily understand what their spells are telling them or prepare them for the magnitude of what's coming. - Larloch would do nothing unless provoked directly. He is undead, what difference does it make for him is the rest of the world is too? Leave him alone and an alien race could rule Faerun without ever knowing he's there. - Being that we are talking about a Fantasy RPG and any campaign taking place in and around the Realms means that the aliens probably have dieties that created them as well. I don't think Faerun's gods have much direct involvment unless a hostile god was attempting to affect any outcomes. A mortal war is fought by mortals. ***If everything could have a god thrown at it then that makes for a fairly boring campaign and makes the novels seem like they are written about an entirely different place.*** - I think that many posts in this thread have alread pointed out the logistics of tech over magic. The shear simplicity of using technology over the years of training to learn and use magic means tech has the upper hand, hands down (no pun intended :D ) The same can be applied to producing magical weapons and producing laser rifles (for example.) *** There are more but this post is getting long so I'll cut to my next section. While this may all look like I'm against the Realms I'm not. Well, I'll admit I like to believe that the Realms CAN be threatened. The only thing I hate about the realms is the fact that Ed has arranged a wonderful set of Campaign wide immunities and trump cards that make it so that FR is the biggest and best and most powerful campaign world possible. Between modern+ technolology mysteriously not working in the "physics" of the Realms (which brings up a whole slew of repercussions and inconsistencies when you start bringing planar gates and portals to other worlds into the equation) and a meddling god of magic that can cut off any magic user's powers at will if she so desires or gives rediculous powers to her self-righteous "chosen" it doesn't leave much room for anything to actually affect the realms at all. It amazes me that there are evil characters at all in FR. How did they get to their level being evil in a world that so heavily favors good (and I use the term loosely.) Yeah, sounds like a rant but I don't buy these blanket statments and immunities because these make for an unimaginative environment. I see no reason or need for such trump cards in any campaign. A DM can come up with his own way of dealing with unbalanced situations then the tired old, well, Elminster shows up and saves the day! "YAY!!!" (Or worse, Mystra shows up and erases 'whatever' from existence.) BORING! ***Getting back to the discussion at hand, a campaign based on Stevieman's idea has a few base assumptions which make most of our ramblings moot: - It is a story about a high-tech alien race invading the Realms, not a discussion based on FR versus technology. - The game is about PCs and having fun. Therefore in order for this invasion to mean something they must pose a threat to be anything worth dealing with and the PCs must be able to do something about it, otherwise, what's the point of running it as a campaign. Write a book! ;) So, like my overgod invasion story, this needs to allow PCs to have some effect if not a chance to 'save the world!' Remember, if we didn't all love the Realms then we wouldn't conceive of such grand and twisted plots to destroy them. :schemes:
jemmerx 02-09-06, 12:51 PM	Wow, I can get longwinded!!! Sorry about the long post guys and gals!
lone_ranger_84 02-10-06, 10:34 AM	Assuming that technolgy does work some how and The battles do ensue what would happen if the Gondsmen priests get a hold of it and and magic users also. Do you want to go against someone who is using a +5 50cal. Mithril Sniper W/ Adamantamite bullets. Assuming that you could cast a spell that the clips never emptied and that the guns never missed their targets. Like a an Arcane Archer using one of these rifels. What would happen if they just Teleported the Tarrasque onto one of these Ships they dont have magic to kill the Dang thing it would just keep coming back to life to kill them. If magic and technology could combine it would get really ugly for the invading enemy I believe.
NightBreeze 02-10-06, 11:38 AM	- The objectives of the invading aliens. - An advanced alien race will have all forms of tactics to go with their technology. These include psychological warfare. - The invaders will have a certain amount of intelligence gathered on Faerun. This will give them, at the very least, the approximate size of the Realms and population, technological level and at least knowledge of this force called magic (if they haven't run into magic in ealier conquests.) They would have to be prepared to handle a certain amount of population prior to undertaking such a large task as invading a world. - Being that Faerun is being invaded, the Faerunians are fighting on the defensive. Each victory or loss adding to the damage to Faerun making the lives of the defenders that much more difficult as time goes on. The invaders have established supply lines prior to the invasion. - The invaders are a unified whole. Faerun will be an unwary, for the most part anyway, divided continent. - Most, if not all, evil characters and nations will most likely not fight immediately unless directly attacked. In any case, these evil characters certainly won't come to the rescue of their enemy cities. Until demonstrated that they are also threatened the old addage would apply: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." - A simultaneous attack similar to ID4 would make it difficult to mount an effective defense when the defensive front is so divided. This isn't a case of the old style of warfare where everyone lines up! - Divinations will only get you so far. Divinations are supposed to be cryptic and general. There is a large possibility that with the psychology of the alien invaders and the unorthodox methods of attack (at least from a Faerunian's point of view) most diviners wouldn't necessarily understand what their spells are telling them or prepare them for the magnitude of what's coming. - Larloch would do nothing unless provoked directly. He is undead, what difference does it make for him is the rest of the world is too? Leave him alone and an alien race could rule Faerun without ever knowing he's there. - Being that we are talking about a Fantasy RPG and any campaign taking place in and around the Realms means that the aliens probably have dieties that created them as well. I don't think Faerun's gods have much direct involvment unless a hostile god was attempting to affect any outcomes. A mortal war is fought by mortals. ***If everything could have a god thrown at it then that makes for a fairly boring campaign and makes the novels seem like they are written about an entirely different place.*** Agree with almost everything - I think that many posts in this thread have alread pointed out the logistics of tech over magic. The shear simplicity of using technology over the years of training to learn and use magic means tech has the upper hand, hands down (no pun intended :D ) The same can be applied to producing magical weapons and producing laser rifles (for example.) Hmm....sure, tecnology has a lot of advantages. It's absolutely sure that the faerunian nations will be defeated and no city will resist to the invaders. The problem is that a few high level archmages ( and ther are a lot of them) on the long term can't be stopped. and a meddling god of magic that can cut off any magic user's powers at will if she so desires or gives rediculous powers to her self-righteous "chosen" it doesn't leave much room for anything to actually affect the realms at all. It amazes me that there are evil characters at all in FR. How did they get to their level being evil in a world that so heavily favors good (and I use the term loosely.) Well, i don't agree. Sure, mystra imbues her chosens wit all sorts of power, but there are dozens of evil gods and evil nations/organizations acting on faerun. And i thing that Torm is the only "good" deity who has ever done something about it.
jemmerx 02-10-06, 11:51 AM	Well, initially I would think that the defenders would be scrambling to survive and gather survivors. From there they would start the typical resistance type guerilla tactics. Once they successfully eliminate an alien patrol or battle squad they would be able to gain access to the technology they use such as weapons. While they may not yet be able to understand the technology they could A) use it as is, B) reverse engineer it (although not easy without any of the scientific knowledge needed to design such a thing as electronics or such) or C) enchant it! "Take a look at my +2 aberration slayer M-16. Sweet, hun?" Once further intelligence is gained by the defenders they may realize that there are motherships or the like in orbit, in which case they may try to find a way aboard or teleport beasts (like the Tarrasque as you mentioned) onto the ships. One thing that would logically result from this kind of invasion, assuming of course that the PCs and the rest of the world are able to defeat the invasion itself, is the fallout. Like in Robotech after the Zentradi assault, the war may be won, but many troops will be left over, there will be widespread destruction and a large deathtoll, not to mention a lot of alien debris which includes the previously mentioned alien technology. This kind of scenario is a long term campaign change. Unless you want to adopt the 'Star Trek, last comercial break clean up' method.
jemmerx 02-10-06, 12:28 PM	Hmm....sure, tecnology has a lot of advantages. It's absolutely sure that the faerunian nations will be defeated and no city will resist to the invaders. The problem is that a few high level archmages ( and ther are a lot of them) on the long term can't be stopped. I agree fully and would never argue that the archmages and even many of the high-level or even epic fighters, rogues and the like wouldn't be able to survive long term if not indefinitely. Depending on whether or not the aliens are equipped to take on individuals of this kind of power or have experience dealing with worlds that use magic can make a big difference. While high level characters, especially mages, could hold out long term, they couldn't fight a war by themselves. There is also the reasoning that as smart and powerful as they are, how can you be preparred for something you've never encountered. A sniper a mile away or high yield bombs are not things you see in the Realms on any given day. Besides, in a D&D campaign, in order to get across how powerful these aliens are and how much of a threat they pose you need to show this with examples the players and their characters can understand. How better to do that than to say that Waterdeep dissappeared in a bright flash and no one has heard from Khelben, Laeral or the Paladinson since. This makes an impact. Well, i don't agree. Sure, mystra imbues her chosens wit all sorts of power, but there are dozens of evil gods and evil nations/organizations acting on faerun. And i thing that Torm is the only "good" deity who has ever done something about it.Please excuse me on this part of the post. It was a rant. As I mentioned just before the section you quoted, the only thing I hate about FR is this built-in trump card feature. I remember when I bough the Chronomancer accessory way back and read in the appendix that chronomancy spells don't work within 100 feet or so around any of the chosen of Mystra. What? As a DM, I don't need the creators to hand me a dozen undefeatable characters to solve whatever problem I may be having in my campaign or be told that that high-technology doesn't work on Toril. I am to much of a rebel to be told what I can't do especially if the reason is arbitrary. But I think I'm getting off topic here.
GothicDan 02-10-06, 03:04 PM	Mystryl had Time in her portfolio; though it's not currently in Mystra's portfolios, she properly nominally maintains the flow of the timestream without it anyway. Thus it makes sense that her Chosen would disrupt Chronomancy. If you don't like the rules inherent to FR (very few of which are in fact arbitrary, if you know the background of the world), then that's fine. You can change them in your own campaign world. But ranting about those things you don't like as if the designers personally told you what to do is illogical. You bought the setting - they did not force it, or any of its innate idiosyncrasies, upon you. It's a setting that they provide to the public to do with as they wish. Toril is a setting already created. It has heroes and it has villains. I for one enjoy this realistic detail. I don't want my PCs to exist in a vacuum of undeserved self-importance, especially when the beacons of good are ultimately so few in a world otherwise crawling with powerful, often subtle, evil. Giving a world with no restrictions is like giving someone 300 sheets of blank paper with a few sketches and numbers on it. I'm not about to pay 35 bucks for that. But then again, I'm not the type to like an unecessary amount of adverbs, either. It weakens the overall material being presented.
jemmerx 02-16-06, 04:17 PM	I know I have responded a bit about this in another thread but I felt that there were a few points you made that i'd like to address: Mystryl had Time in her portfolio; though it's not currently in Mystra's portfolios, she properly nominally maintains the flow of the timestream without it anyway. Thus it makes sense that her Chosen would disrupt Chronomancy.I was only using the example of Chronomancy to make a point. One can find an explanation for almost anything but that doesn't make it necessary or change the reasons it was put there in the first place. If you don't like the rules inherent to FR (very few of which are in fact arbitrary, if you know the background of the world), then that's fine. You can change them in your own campaign world. But ranting about those things you don't like as if the designers personally told you what to do is illogical. You bought the setting - they did not force it, or any of its innate idiosyncrasies, upon you. It's a setting that they provide to the public to do with as they wish.It is specifically because I love the Realms that these things bug me so. I find that this is a weakness in the design of the FR. While this is obvioulsy not a case of the designers personally telling me what to do, I, like many others, like to alter canon as little as possible for my games. Besides, maybe I do feel like the designers personally told me so! :)Toril is a setting already created. It has heroes and it has villains. I for one enjoy this realistic detail.I enjoy this detail as well. My argument is that the uber-powerful Chosen are more akin to deities than heroes since they are undefeatable. I for one would like it if Elminster actually sprained a muscle, perhaps getting into mortal danger, helping out instead of having every author need to send him to Hell and battle hordes of fiends every time a major event happens in the Realms only because he would otherwise wrap up the story in a few short pages.I don't want my PCs to exist in a vacuum of undeserved self-importance, especially when the beacons of good are ultimately so few in a world otherwise crawling with powerful, often subtle, evil.Who said anything about the PCs existing in a vacuum? It's certainly not the fact that the Chosen actually have a chance of dying that the PCs are going to get any more powerful. I can see here that we are looking at the field from the different perspectives. You see a world with a handful of heroes and a seemingly endless array of evil threats waiting to pounce. I see a world with a bunch of inept and hopelessly outclassed evil organizations, or individuals, that have but a small band of undefeatable, god-like heroes in their way. You see the situation as grim, I see it as static with no hope of change in sight. As a DM wanting to play the FR as printed, I cannot explain what use the PCs could have in a world where there are god-like NPCs who would deal with any problem big enough to get their attention. At that point, what fun is there to campaign in the Realms? Is going to the places we've only read about enough? Giving a world with no restrictions is like giving someone 300 sheets of blank paper with a few sketches and numbers on it. I'm not about to pay 35 bucks for that.Don't go putting words in my mouth. There is a big difference with not liking the immortal 'trump cards', as I call them, and not having any restrictions. Besides, I don't know what that Player's Handbook is for that I spent good money on. I'm not asking for a big change. It's like when you play an RPG in god-mode with a gameshark. It's fun for the first few battles but there is no excitement. That's all I'm asking for: excitement!
BrennonGoldeye 02-16-06, 09:44 PM	... Or the various archmages would just mentally dominate all of the leaders and say, 'Go back and play with your little toys.' Done. I'm a bloody Astrophysics Major. I deal regularly in near-Sci-Fi material, and I love it, but I cannot fathom how even advanced science could hold up to the unmitigated magical might of Faerun (even if somehow it managed to function in Realmspace). One of there reasons I enjoy physics so much is specifically because it's the closest to 'magic' we can get - and I can assure you we're still very far away. Dan, You obviously have a vast amount of knowledge about the Realms and all of us who dwell in it. Just 2 points. Point 1: The "Archmages" of our pretty little orb aren't capable of pulling thier collective heads from thier bums unless they have 2 years notice and conviently forget how much more important thier plans and power are than the safety of Toril. I would agree that ara El could take a Batallion on by himself, but the 8th Airforce could destroy Cormyr and Sembia in about 3 days. Each of those planes goes faster than anything but teleportation (pretty much removing the possibility of them ever being in spell range) and can take out a nice sized community on its own. Throw all the fireballs you want a an M1A1(not to mention it's bigger and newer brother), just hope you have the Irongaurd spell ready, no wait, the Depleted UraniumGaurd spell. And I really want everyone to think about what chance ANY dragon (except possibly Force or Prismatic) would have against an Aegis Cruiser, let alone the Missouri or Harry S. Truman. Try as the mages might, the nation of Isreal has more firepower than all of them combined. Try and calculate the DC of an epic spell with a radius of effect of 50 miles(It's somewhere around 120,000 before we add the 1000d6 of damage, and even that much is small compared to a big Soviet SS20) We Terrans hold in our hand the ability to kill everything weighing over a pound on this planet in about 33 minutes. I bet Shar's jealous :rolleyes: Point 2:The Terran part of me has a PhD in Physics and a job actually using it, and we are a lot closer than you think. ;) Oh yeah, and point 3: Thank the Lady for making our Crystal Sphere Tech dead, because this lowly mage would have been taken out in a driveby long ago.. :)
Darrian 02-17-06, 01:04 PM	Amen Brennon, amen. These last two posts, yours and Jemmerx's, give me much reassurance that there are indeed objective minds on these boards. Darrian (voice of tolerance)
GothicDan 02-18-06, 12:59 AM	Of course. There always has been, Darrian! I'm truly shocked you've never noticed! Brennon: You are, of course, forgetting the always-present trump card that archmages and high priests hold at all times - divination spells. :) If such a deadly threat was aimed at Faerun, surely Savras or other powerful Diviners would hear of it; such great acts would send ripples throughout the entire multiverse. Then, given the fact that the High Magi destroyed their home of Faerie, broke an entire continent with one ritual, and the fact that the Netherese developed spells that could kill gods and a scepter that could banish them, and the Imaskari could create a barrier that blocked an ENTIRE PANTHEON of deities... I don't think it would be so hard for them to handle a cosmological shield against the appropriate attackers. Or to create an Epic Spell that opens an open portal to the Abyss, the Elemental Plane of Fire, or the Negative Energy Plane, via a crystal ball, while said Archmage sits nice and tight in a little demiplane or extradimensional space elsewhere. And yes, it's possible, considering there was an 8th level spell in 2E that let you cast a lightning storm through a crystal ball. Imagine what Epic spells could do!
Karsus the Mad 02-19-06, 11:01 PM	In case people forgot, these alien invaders are not merely technologically superior, they're also psionic. Anything a mage can do can be done by psions as well. All they need do is lay an epic antimagic shell (or continuous effect disjunction) over the entire planet keyed to affect everything but their own people and let their technology and psionics do the rest. Dan raises a good point. The magical might of Toril shouldn't be underestimated. It shouldn't be overestimated either tho'. Sure they could pull off some mucho mucho magicko epic spell to deal with pretty much anything. Whether or not they can actually work together and whether or not they'd have the time to actually develop said spell is something that would make it unlikely to succeed. I wouldn't rely on divination spells much. They're easily blocked, especially by epic spells/powers. Surprise, organization, technology, unity are on the side of the invaders.
Lord Karsus 02-20-06, 07:59 PM	I for one would like it if Elminster actually sprained a muscle, perhaps getting into mortal danger, helping out instead of having every author need to send him to Hell and battle hordes of fiends every time a major event happens in the Realms only because he would otherwise wrap up the story in a few short pages.Who said anything about the PCs existing in a vacuum? It's certainly not the fact that the Chosen actually have a chance of dying that the PCs are going to get any more powerful. -I wholeheartedly agree with you. But, as the War against the Phaerimm and the Return of the City of Thultanthar has shown, the Chosen of Mystra wouldn't be able to wrap up a world-wide crisis quite so easily.
lone_ranger_84 02-22-06, 08:49 AM	Karsus the mad nothing was set in definite on the Psion part though it would definitly up there strength it was just an idea that was thrown out there for them and i agree with the others that technology would do some serious damage to the people of Toril but as I stated before what happens when the people would get a hold of this technology they would have the same weapons just a heck of alot stronger then what the invaders are using.
Karsus the Mad 02-22-06, 11:26 AM	Karsus the mad nothing was set in definite on the Psion part though it would definitly up there strength it was just an idea that was thrown out there for them and i agree with the others that technology would do some serious damage to the people of Toril but as I stated before what happens when the people would get a hold of this technology they would have the same weapons just a heck of alot stronger then what the invaders are using. Quote from Stevieman No I’m still here, I was gone for like a few day and it look like I started a show here. But anyways I been thinking about what everyone had to say so far and since I’m stubborn and like to break rules tech will work in this realm. But without some type of pison in the works my invader will be wipe out. So now we have high tech with pison powers vs low tech with high magic. If Faerunian's get ahold of it, how would they even know how to use it? They could certainly study it, but how long would that take? Maybe not long, maybe a long time. Even if they got a few examples, how are they going to make it? I can see them handing it over to some Gondar priests, and the priests crapping themselves in joy, then scratching their heads in confusion. :) I can see a few Faerunians getting ahold of the weapons, learning how to use them, etc, and having mages enchant them. But it'd be so few weapons, that they'd probably be given over to "special forces" type of groups (ala, the PC's).
GothicDan 02-24-06, 12:47 PM	Gond, as the deity of technology in Faerun, would immediately know anything and everything about any technology used there. He would relay this information to his priests so that they could use captured items, and most likely quickly replicate and enhance them with their own magic. No deity wants all of ther followers to be destroyed (at least, not yet, in some cases), so Gond doing this would please pretty much all of the deities, or at least make them grudgingly accept it. And before anyone goes about saying how we have to discount the actions of divinities in this thread, or how the above would be too directly deus ex machina, all one has to do is take a look at mythology to see direct analogies, of deities of knowledge, medicine, and the like imparting miraculous cures and information to people in need. The case above would be no different, simply on a larger scale. The presence and influence of divine beings is one of the most significant aspects of what makes fantasy, fantasy. And this IS a discussion about Sci Fi vs. Fantasy.
Karsus the Mad 02-24-06, 09:25 PM	Eh? Gond is god of artifice, craft, construction, and smithwork (I'm not entirely sure why he's worshipped as a god of invention and technology when invention is actually Oghma's portfolio, and technology is unclaimed) who cares nothing for the consequences (whether good or bad) that come from the use of such things. I don't think he'd simply give all his priests instant knowledge of any alien technology. He's a "do it yourself" deity. I can see him doing so only in the most dire circumstance, and with Ao's direct permission, such as what you said: no deity wants their worshippers to die. But if deities actually had the ability to stop such a thing everytime, then we wouldn't have all the ruins of fallen realms, dead races (or mostly dead), cultures, etc in the Realms, as their respective deities would rush to the rescue everytime (much like a cliche'd superhero comic). We don't know if that's what the aliens are planning on doing tho'. Their goal is to gain lots of magic, not exterminate all life on Toril (tho it might be...dunno). Why they don't just form trade relations with such nations as Thay, who'd be more than willing to trade with them I dunno (other than the obvious "PC's need an adversary to overcome", which is a given and doesn't need explaining). :) If the Realms deities get involved, what of the invaders deities? Do they even worship deities? Or have they shrugged off the dependence upon divine influence over the eons as their technology increasingly progressed? btw, I thought we were discussing Stevieman69's alien invader idea? ;)
GothicDan 02-24-06, 11:12 PM	The deities have never gotten directly involved with fallen empires in the past because it didn't threaten their entire group of faithful like a major, high school, super sci-fi and psionic assault would.
Lord Karsus 02-24-06, 11:23 PM	The deities have never gotten directly involved with fallen empires in the past because it didn't threaten their entire group of faithful like a major, high school, super sci-fi and psionic assault would. -Well, there were the Imaskari, but that was a different set of circumstances...
Karsus the Mad 02-25-06, 12:58 AM	There was also Jhaamdath. Auppenser did nothing to prevent their destruction, and Jhaamdath was almost his entire worship base.
Kenzuki 02-25-06, 11:51 PM	Simple, have the alien invaders employ either Psitech or Magitech. That is Tech that runs off of magic or psionics. This would technically make them work in Toril, as they are not run by electricity etc. I'm sure people have fond memories of FF6 and the Magitech Empire that was there. I can imagen awhole lot of pain a troop of Protoss Zealots would cause the natives, heck Eliminster would probably get his arse whooped by Tassadar or Zeretul. The Dark Templar are not to be underestimated.....
Mecha_Pope 02-28-06, 04:03 PM	Damage reduction 5/ magic. You are now bulletproof lazerproof and lightsaber proof. Resist energy: you are now fireproof and electricityproof. the end.
ElGrecoETAC 02-28-06, 10:59 PM	I've never really had a problem with tech in my FR. It's probably the one split I've had with Ed's philosophy, but it's not a total one by any means. In my campaign, most of the human realms are either young to begin with, or underwent some cataclysmic upheaval that stunted their growth. That much is indicated by core Realms books. For those nations, I use the tech appropriate given reasonable development, mitigated by the logical impact the state's culture would have. Cormyr, for example, is on the verge of Rennaissance-era tech. Zhentil Keep might as well be a participant in the Hundred Years' War. Elves--except for Sylvan Elves--and, to a lesser degree, Dwarves, live in cities that would drop jaws in the rest of the Realms. This is because the amount of magic they have invested in their communities produces effects equivalent to what I imagine being appropriate for a tech-based society many thousands of years old. Thus you have magic-driven engineering and architecture of a massive scale (towers that reach as high, if not higher than, skyscrapers), commonly available instantaneous travel (portals and the like), and a very high standard of medicine (potions, scrolls, healing magic) among other things. Per Ed's own examples, my Elves' military largely abandons what we see in books like the Last Mythal Trilogy (which I personally enjoy nonetheless). Gone are the infantry formations of spearmen, swordsmen, and archers. Military units are made up of well-trained (members of heroic classes, not NPC classes) and well-equipped (wands of fireballs or lightning bolts; arms and armor with at least a minimal enchantment to bypass common resistances; potions and items inducing enhancements such as Haste, Flight, etc.) individuals. They are supplemented by experienced arcane and divine casters whose effects can, and should, match their tech counterparts. And then, there are the High Magi--who can split continents, ignite the atmosphere, hurl meteors about, poison an ecosystem, and maintain hurricanes at their whim. Did someone mention Spelljammers? Here's a hint: they're not just a bunch of space-worthy sailing ships. Of course, as I alluded, different nations have different capabilities. The 20,000+ year legacy of magic found amongst the Quessir gives them enough power to laugh at virtually anything our current technology might throw at them (yes, even nukes and the like). This how, after all, I justify them scoffing at the noble men and women of Cormyr--who, the War Wizards' magic aside, still have to dig out farming fields with animal excrement, ride stinking animals, are rarely afforded the opportunity to properly bathe, etc. Netheril would have had capabilities equivalent to the Elves'. Waterdeep is a hodge-podge of the archaic and the arcanely-advanced. Thay is also a hodge-podge; the Red Wizards live in a world that their minions cannot possibly imagine. Imagine, for example, a Welsh Peasant during the 13th century living in the shadow of a 21st century skyscraper with sattelite TV, telephones, computers, heating and AC, and an array of missile launchers and flame-throwers. ;) And so on, and so forth. How does this relate to the subject? The way I run my Realms, the invading force Stevie used as an example would find its equal in several Faerunian cultures. On the other hand, it could easily decimate many others without blinking, so long as the more powerful natives decided not to interfere.
Zsych 03-01-06, 02:24 AM	Elven mongrels equal to the Netherese? Sacrilege!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By and large, it seems that magical technology of any decent sort is not possible with the Weave in it's current form. Without mythallar magical items remain too expensive for the common man to buy lots of them casually. And there don't seem to be many Shadow-weave users among the Elves to make such things(assuming that it's even possible to design mythallars without the knowledge of the Nether scrolls) The elves may be able to cast some decent spells, especially together, but there are limits to what they can do. Going by 2E(since i don't know the status of elven high-magic in 3E), even thinking of using High Magic in any but the most desperate of circumstances was stupidity. I'm not sure that all of the elven mages combined could channel the pure power of a decently large nuclear bomb(or anti-matter bomb... a couple of pounds and the planet is dust), though they could probably shunt the explosion aside to some other plane perhaps(provided it didn't explode near them, and they had time to react)
Karsus the Mad 03-01-06, 02:32 AM	Elven mongrels equal to the Netherese? Sacrilege!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hehe, preach on! :D Anyway:) In 3.5 elven high magic is what elves call Epic Spells (created using the Epic Spellcasting feat, and Spellcraft checks).
Lord Karsus 03-01-06, 09:12 AM	Elven mongrels equal to the Netherese? Sacrilege!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Hey, Hadrhune, the right hand man of High Prince Telamont, and possibly the second most powerful being on Thultanthar (Shade), is an Elf. It seems that Elves aren't that bad anymore, huh?
Mecha_Pope 03-01-06, 10:42 AM	Back to the point, There are just too many things that magic can do that the aliens could not stop. We have everything from teleporting red dragons to bulletproof golems to one well-placed disintigration putting a hole in the hull of a crusier going mach 10 and causing massive decompression and sucking all it's inhabitants through a tiny hole! The list goes on and on. And anyways, what happens if Ao gets involved to preserve the ballance and all that. The rules clearly state that he is completly invincable and capable of causing anything to happen. If he chooses that you should cese to exist, than it is so. The thing is, tech has limmits. Magic; Not so much!
Karsus the Mad 03-01-06, 03:39 PM	-Hey, Hadrhune, the right hand man of High Prince Telamont, and possibly the second most powerful being on Thultanthar (Shade), is an Elf. It seems that Elves aren't that bad anymore, huh? Ah, but you see, that elf is Netherese (more accurately, Shade) in personality and practice:) I do however often wonder what he may have been like before Shades long exile.
ElGrecoETAC 03-01-06, 06:06 PM	Without mythallar magical items remain too expensive for the common man to buy lots of them casually. You have to discard your preconceptions of Faerunian Elven society. Imagine a culture where, after thousands of years of development and infrastructure build-up, magic makes almost anything possible. "Needs" (as in the need to produce food--a venture that occupies the time of the majority of a conventional Realms population) drive people. When needs are taken care of, people tend to follow what we would consider to be "higher," or at least more sophisticated, callings. Sun Elves who might spend their time toiling in menial labor in an ill-fitting medieval society are free to follow academic or arcane ambitions (among others). In such a way, yes, those who chose to follow the martial path can do so with the sort of equipment that experienced (low to mid-level) human adventurers from, say, Elturel, would envy. Equipment that a technologically advanced (read: Sci-Fi) society might find its equal in. This makes sense for people who have existed without a dark age for thousands of years. And the Elves of Evermeet have done just that. There's no reason why their magic and their infrastructure, developed as it has been for so long, wouldn't be able to provide for all the things I listed. Pretending like it wouldn't, while pigeon-holing them to a standard of living and level of "tech" only moderately better than that of a society thousands of years younger is contrived, IMHO. I'm not sure that all of the elven mages combined could channel the pure power of a decently large nuclear bomb, though they could probably shunt the explosion aside to some other plane perhaps(provided it didn't explode near them, and they had time to react) As Dan pointed out, the attack itself would not be a surprise, nor would the conditions preceding it. A magical tradition that can summon energies powerful enough to exceed that of a nuclear bomb (e.g., splitting a continent off with enougn power to push it thousands of miles into the ocean) can likewise dissipate an equivalet amount, I would imagine. At any rate, I apologize if I'm diverting for the scenario at hand with my own, campaign specific, material.
ElGrecoETAC 03-01-06, 06:10 PM	Back to the point, There are just too many things that magic can do that the aliens could not stop. We have everything from teleporting red dragons to bulletproof golems to one well-placed disintigration putting a hole in the hull of a crusier going mach 10 and causing massive decompression and sucking all it's inhabitants through a tiny hole! The list goes on and on. And anyways, what happens if Ao gets involved to preserve the ballance and all that. The rules clearly state that he is completly invincable and capable of causing anything to happen. If he chooses that you should cese to exist, than it is so. The thing is, tech has limmits. Magic; Not so much! Well said.
GothicDan 03-02-06, 12:32 AM	There was also Jhaamdath. Auppenser did nothing to prevent their destruction, and Jhaamdath was almost his entire worship base. So, as I said, the deities of FR have never directly intervened because they have never had their entire group of faithful threatened with extinction. Auppenser was only one, relatively minor deity (in terms of the greater Faerunian pantheon), so if he had directly intervened, other deities would have stepped in (including possibly the Seldarine). With all of Faerun in danger, all of the deities would have something to gain by allowing Oghma to give mortals the knowledge to use advanced technology in order to defeat the invaders, if that was what was necessary to win, because they would all lose a serious number of worshippers.
GothicDan 03-02-06, 12:38 AM	I'd like to thank ElGreco for helping to fortify my personal opinions of Elven magical power. :) Just take a look at at the Cormanthyr supplement and you get an idea of the sheer versatility and high-tech level magic that established Elven cities lived with every day. Also, you can get an idea of the sort of military that powerful Elven cities packed - including, at a minimal I believe, 5th level Fighters as standard troops, which was pretty much unheard of in 2E. And, High Magi aside, the Elves also have Circlesingers, detailed in Elaine's Evermeet novel. I haven't seen a statistical representation for them as of yet (though I've been considering doing one myself), but they are still canon.
Zsych 03-03-06, 07:48 AM	Hmm... third time i'm writing this :) Anyway, i thought regular elven Mythals required one of the mages to merge with the mythal(in other words, commit suicide, in the sense that he'd no longer have an elven body) and protect it. Also, i was going through Ed's answers for 2006 at Kuje's site, and he says that what's around Silverymoon isn't really a mythal, even if it's similar. He went NDA on the further details(Don't know what it means, but it sounds like RAFO.. read and find out). He mentioned that whatever it is, it can be implied from stuff in Secrets of the Magister.
Karsus the Mad 03-03-06, 07:57 AM	Only if the mythal uses the caster dies mitigating factor. The mythal of silverymoon is a real mythal in the sense that it was created using the mythal seed, according to LEoF. Whether it's a true mythal, a wizard mythal, or near-mythal is semantics, and subject to cultural interpretation of what constitutes a mythal, since mechanically, any mythal created with the mythal seed will function the same. There is no mechanical difference whatsoever between true (typically created by elven high magi), wizardly (created by non-elves and non high mage elves), and near mythals(extensive wardings resulting in an identical effect as a mythal). Back to the point, There are just too many things that magic can do that the aliens could not stop. We have everything from teleporting red dragons to bulletproof golems to one well-placed disintigration putting a hole in the hull of a crusier going mach 10 and causing massive decompression and sucking all it's inhabitants through a tiny hole! The list goes on and on. And anyways, what happens if Ao gets involved to preserve the ballance and all that. The rules clearly state that he is completly invincable and capable of causing anything to happen. If he chooses that you should cese to exist, than it is so. The thing is, tech has limmits. Magic; Not so much! And why wouldn't they be able to stop it? Psions have the same abilities as mages, and fewer of the limitations. Divinations? Psionic mind blank field. Teleporting in dragons and what not? Divert Teleport to simply reverse the destination then teleport trace to discover where it's from, or null psionics field to prevent it at all. Again, anything a Torillian mage can do can be countered, blocked, or reproduced by a psion, and vice versa. Which is where the heavy machinery comes in, to tip the balance.
jemmerx 03-03-06, 10:55 AM	I just thought I'd add a few things to point out here to balance out this discussion. The elves, however powerful, are in decline in the Realms. They have, at this point in the printed timeline, only two defensible locations left: Evermeet and Evereska. There are a few other minor settlements but for the most part could never withstand a direct assault of almost any kind. Evereska is currently in a very rough state after the Phaerimm war and would most likely not last long against an attack the magnitude of which we are talking about. Evermeet, being almost half a world away, might not even be touched by an invasion. First off, would aliens bother with a fairly small island like Evermeet when an entire continent hundreds of times it's size lies off to the east? Probably not. Also, with the protective magics in place in and around Evermeet, the aliens may not even be able to find or, in the case that they can see it, probably couldn't land on it. The elves have more than secured Evermeet and nothing short of epic magic (or epic manifestations) could even hope of penetrating these defenses. The point in all of this is that the elves will not swing the war either way. Also, if aliens were to attempt an invasion of Faerun, I would have to assume they are attacking in extremely large numbers. The number of troops must be at least in the low millions to make any real sense. These numbers would be staggering to even the greatest wielders of magic not to mention on the mundane population even taking into account high-level characters. If we take Real-Realms example of the Tuigan Horde to compare, the Horde consisted of 40,000 mounted warriors. While it's been years since I've read the novels, I don't recall much magic, if any, and certainly no technology aiding the invading force and it took a momumental effort by several nations to defeat them. I think that the sheer numbers of an alien invasion force alone would be almost enough to sway it far into their favor. That's not taking into account any of their other advantages. Divination spells as I said before have enough references in the spell descriptions, the two DMs guides and other sources to make clear that these spells give vague and cryptic information. So while the general idea of a large invasion from the sky might be understood, details would be very sketchy at best. I agree that many of the gods would help behind the scenes in many ways and may even send avatars to help out but I can't see much more than that. If they haven't directly manifested their full powers at any time in the history of the Realms prior to this, I see no reason why they would here, loss of worshipers or not. Besides, saying that the gods would easily defeat the alien threat is rediculous because, just in sheer power alone, we all know they can, but that doesn't take into account possible factors such as alien deities, and has to be the single greatest, not to mention unimaginative, cop out of this entire discussion. Let us also remember that the aliens have these factors in their favor: - Technology: I won't argue that magic will trump all but the best technology but in the scenario we are discussing, technology in the amount it will appear will overwhelm magic and it's users. - Preparation: While divinations, and godly visions, may give certain people in the Realms an idea of what's to come, the Realms couldn't possibly be prepared for the enormity what is about to hit. The attackers know what they are getting into. This doesn't take into account some kind of counter to such spells. - Unity: The Realms would not stand as one. Even the good nations would be too busy defending themselves to run to the aid of others. The attackers are, by definition, unified. Like I said in previous posts, there are other factors that are left unknown such as whether or not this race has ever invaded other worlds and whether they have faced magical resistance on those worlds. In the end what matters most is the motivation of the DM. We've seen enough arguments both ways to show that either side can be made to win, more or less realistically, over the other. Obviously the threat must be credible otherwise what's the point of designing such an event for a D&D campaign.
Zsych 03-03-06, 01:44 PM	Hmm... mythals... All i remember about Wizard Mythals is that they decay much faster than elven mythals... essentially being cheap copies, made by people lacking whatever it is that elven high mages have. - As for our invaders. ... or rather their gods. Insert a force of 4 Eclipse Class Star Destroyers, with support. People on Toril divining should **** their pants at a count of 1 million soldiers each :) And a god with millions of definite worshippers(just on the ships) should be stronger than any god of Toril :) since it'd imply billions of people on the planetS from which they come. ... Now that would be amusing, all of the gods of Toril along with Ao, in a fight with the invaders' god(they should be monotheistic for greater amusement value :)). The enemy god should be a servant of Ao's master for convenience sake. (... such a scale might render PCs mostly meaningless... ) Mass produced heavy war droids(in the millions), would be interesting too. But it's true that without interference from the ultimate mages of Faerun, there'd be a massive beating going on for the people of Faerun. (i recall in some documentary... they were mentioning a chemical substance so terrible that a 100 grams of it would annihilate all humans on earth... interesting what technology can do... not sure even gods could manage that easily :)) - Back in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, the princes of Shade created a couple of portals into Hell, Elminster jumped in to seal them up, and was not seen again. One wonders if the invaders have psionic technology with the power equivalent of 200th level psionics :) (obviously not, but that's what you expect from advanced science)
Lord Karsus 03-03-06, 11:06 PM	Hmm... third time i'm writing this :) Anyway, i thought regular elven Mythals required one of the mages to merge with the mythal(in other words, commit suicide, in the sense that he'd no longer have an elven body) and protect it. Also, i was going through Ed's answers for 2006 at Kuje's site, and he says that what's around Silverymoon isn't really a mythal, even if it's similar. He went NDA on the further details(Don't know what it means, but it sounds like RAFO.. read and find out). He mentioned that whatever it is, it can be implied from stuff in Secrets of the Magister. -The Wards around Silverymoon are not a True, Elven Mythal! It is a "Mythal". Actual, true Mythals are Elven in origin. The wards of Silverymoon were not created in the same way that the mythals of Elven cities were laid.
ORC_Paradox 03-04-06, 11:49 PM	Of course, in the middle of the invasion, that's when the Gith show up to invade... "This is OUR turf!" You should check out back issues of Dragon and Dungeon.. they both had an "event" about a Gith invasion.
GothicDan 03-06-06, 10:10 PM	And a god with millions of definite worshippers(just on the ships) should be stronger than any god of Toril since it'd imply billions of people on the planetS from which they come. The worshippers from one Crystal Sphere do not transfer to a deity's strength in another Crystal Sphere. That being said, said deity would have absolutely no precedence on Toril, because the deity did not work its way into a pre-existent pantheon (or set up its own) with the will of AO. Deities just can't waltz in and out; they have to establish a divine presence on a world first (that is, have divine spellcasters present on the world), and only then can they exert a fraction of their overall power. From then on, they have to work their way up from effectively having a DvR of 0. ... Now that would be amusing, all of the gods of Toril along with Ao, in a fight with the invaders' god(they should be monotheistic for greater amusement value ). AO has supreme control in Realmspace. No questions. However, he has little to no power anywhere else. The enemy god should be a servant of Ao's master for convenience sake. AO's 'master' is the DM, for the most part. (... such a scale might render PCs mostly meaningless... ) Yup. Mass produced heavy war droids(in the millions), would be interesting too. No more interesting than millions of Tanar'ri being summoned. But it's true that without interference from the ultimate mages of Faerun, there'd be a massive beating going on for the people of Faerun. Uh... Well, yes. That's like saying, "If we tossed a tank on this sheep, it sure would be squashed!" Back in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, the princes of Shade created a couple of portals into Hell, Elminster jumped in to seal them up, and was not seen again. Er. He was seen in the novel Elminster in Hell, and then again when he got out of Hell. One wonders if the invaders have psionic technology with the power equivalent of 200th level psionics So it's no longer sci fi, so much as "Magic A vs. Magic with Funny Name B."
Karsus the Mad 03-06-06, 10:16 PM	No more interesting than millions of Tanar'ri being summoned. That'd be a lot of bloody spells to prepare...no room for anything else. Summon a boogle load of demons or devils or whatnot, and the invaders might have an easier job...just sit back and wait for the carnage to end...
GothicDan 03-06-06, 10:23 PM	That'd be a lot of bloody spells to prepare...no room for anything else. Summon a boogle load of demons or devils or whatnot, and the invaders might have an easier job...just sit back and wait for the carnage to end... Which is why you summon them, of course, in the ships themselves! Remember, creating a Gate isn't hard, per se. If you just create a huge, Epic-style Gate in the middle of a ship, you don't even have to control the demons that pour out of it.
Karsus the Mad 03-06-06, 11:21 PM	Which is why you summon them, of course, in the ships themselves! Remember, creating a Gate isn't hard, per se. If you just create a huge, Epic-style Gate in the middle of a ship, you don't even have to control the demons that pour out of it. :evillaugh You know I love that evil mind of yours?
Zsych 03-07-06, 03:58 AM	As for Ao's master, i mean the one at the end of the book about the ToT, where Ao after fixing things with the new Mystra and lot, goes to his master and says that everything is now going according to plan :) (Which really made me remember the Old Ones in the Immortals) -- As for Elminster... i meant that he wasn't seen again during all of the Return of the Archwizards series, so getting rid of him actually didn't turn out to be a very serious problem, even if it was accidental :) --- And for the 200th level Psionic items. I didn't actually mean that they'd have them, but the point is that if you're working with a technological PoV, then a large powerful race could well have industries that would build such things if needed. One power generator not enough, add ten more :) That's the difference between static magical items, and the component oriented technological items. (The Netherese might well have made such things, since they were bending more towards technology and commercialization than the typical kind of magic on Toril)
Lord Karsus 03-07-06, 07:14 AM	As for Ao's master, i mean the one at the end of the book about the ToT, where Ao after fixing things with the new Mystra and lot, goes to his master and says that everything is now going according to plan :) -Ah, Ao's master. I am Ao's master, as are you, as is everybody else. We are all Ao's master. Makes him seem insignificant now, doesn't it? :cool:
Zsych 03-08-06, 05:14 AM	Ao's master licks my boots. Thus making Ao a second degree servant of mine, as well as a direct servant, since i don't follow the chain of command :)
jemmerx 03-08-06, 10:48 AM	No more interesting than millions of Tanar'ri being summoned. ---- That'd be a lot of bloody spells to prepare...no room for anything else. Summon a boogle load of demons or devils or whatnot, and the invaders might have an easier job...just sit back and wait for the carnage to end... ---- Which is why you summon them, of course, in the ships themselves! Remember, creating a Gate isn't hard, per se. If you just create a huge, Epic-style Gate in the middle of a ship, you don't even have to control the demons that pour out of it. No matter where you place the gates, if the Tanar'ri are successful in decimating the invading force, then Faerun has to deal with the millions of Tanar'ri. Is that better than the invaders? Of course, I have yet to hear how one would get a gate on board their ships. Sounds great in theory though. I've also noticed that the invaders seem to just sit pretty while all these things happen. We wouldn't want a live attack would we. That could really put a cramp in the defenders style if the invaders could react as well. The worshippers from one Crystal Sphere do not transfer to a deity's strength in another Crystal Sphere. That being said, said deity would have absolutely no precedence on Toril, because the deity did not work its way into a pre-existent pantheon (or set up its own) with the will of AO. Deities just can't waltz in and out; they have to establish a divine presence on a world first (that is, have divine spellcasters present on the world), and only then can they exert a fraction of their overall power. From then on, they have to work their way up from effectively having a DvR of 0.From my recollections of the deities of Mulhorand didn't have this problem of which you speak. Besides, the invaders would be a traveling base of worshippers and could have divine spellcasters which would fill much of the conditions you brought up. One last question, where does it say that Ao, or an Overdeity, has little to no power anywhere else? I don't recall reading that anywhere but on Dicefreaks within their accepted cosmology.
Zsych 03-08-06, 11:25 AM	I personally think that Ao would have a reasonable amount of power over any other universes. He didn't gain his power through worshippers or any such, he's a creator god, who built a universe. Stands to reason that he could mess with others if he wanted it. Another god of similar strength might try to build defences into his world to stop meddling but i doubt that it'd be all that easy. Most likely, these overgods, accept each other's spaces, and play their own games, knowing that if they mess with someone else's game, they'll be messed with right back. (not to mention that an overgod of Ao's level would not get anything from the other universe's that he could not create himself.... It's not like mortal magic is likely to mean anything to the likes of Ao)
GothicDan 03-08-06, 07:25 PM	One last question, where does it say that Ao, or an Overdeity, has little to no power anywhere else? I don't recall reading that anywhere but on Dicefreaks within their accepted cosmology. That is the definition of an Overgod in 2E - they have no power outside of their own Crystal Sphere. Overgod was not just a DvR, but a title of status, as well, a signifier of their very job. It's similar to the fact that the Lady of Pain, as far as we know, most likely has little to no power outside of Sigil and her Mazes. That's the price they pay for being all-powerful in their Crystal Spheres and needing no actual worship to keep them that powerful - they are only powerful in their (rather limited) piece of the Prime Material Plane. Infinite power over a tiny area, so to speak, whereas Multispheric Deities' powers could stretch out over the Outer and Inner Planes and the Etheral and Astral and across any Prime Spheres in which they had worshippers (even if the various faces of the deities from one Crystal Sphere to the next have power varying on the amount of worship in a given world). This is based on information from Spelljammer, which deals specifically with travel from one Prime World and Sphere to the next, and enforced by Planescape's On Hallowed Grounds.
Kenzuki 03-08-06, 07:59 PM	The Death Star shoots Abeir-Toril, everyone dies. :cool:
GothicDan 03-09-06, 11:29 AM	The clergy of Savras foretell a terrible event from the sky in the near future, and the clergies of Mystra, Azuth, and Savras (maybe even Velsharoon), not to mention those of most likely Corellon Larethian and the other magic deities (including most of the other powerful Seldarine, Isis, Thoth..) concentrate their efforts on divining it further, and in the end cast a massive Epic spell which creates a barrier around Faerun, which reflects the Death Star's ray back at itself, blowing it up.
Karsus the Mad 03-09-06, 02:47 PM	And the alien psions work in a ritual and create an epic power that blocks all divinations and reflects all attacks back to the source, and dispels the shield set up by deities who without DM metagaming wouldn't even be part of such a scenario:rolleyes: Really now, I think this discussion has run it's course. All the pro-aliens can counter the pro-Faerunians, and vice versa.
Zsych 03-09-06, 03:57 PM	The various gods combined their divination abilities, and are as successful in realizing the source of the unfamiliar problem, as Mystryl was when trying to find out what Karsus was up to :) However, Gond being not quite a complete idiot, and having worked on steam engines(:)), theorizes(after the Death Star arrives), that it must have a power core, that if disrupted, could stop it from firing. They cast magic to interfere with the power conduits. The Death Star explodes, causing minimal damage to the surroundings :) Pieces of it fall to Toril as meteors, for years to come. Insert the Emperor, with a superior form of precience when not dealing with idiot jedi who seem to keep shifting between the light and dark sides. Using his superior divination, he manages to dupe the people of Faerun, unite them under him, and makes them worship him as their new god... the various gods starved of worship, soon start to croak as the Emperor becomes the One and Only God of Faerun(under Ao, of course :))
GothicDan 03-09-06, 08:28 PM	This is officially one of the most ridiculous discussions I've ever engaged in. So long, folks. ;)
Kenzuki 03-09-06, 09:30 PM	There is just one more thing I need to add. :D Darth Vader could kill Elminster. "Astroids do not concern me commander."
Karsus the Mad 03-10-06, 12:57 AM	This is officially one of the most ridiculous discussions I've ever engaged in. So long, folks. ;) I second that :bigeyes:
Lord Karsus 03-10-06, 01:24 AM	I second that :bigeyes: -It's been so long that I don't even remember my original post in this thread. It's an interesting concept, but things have taken a turn for the strange. I'll third that vote...
Zsych 03-10-06, 03:33 AM	Oh come on.. just when things have turned amusing :) It occurs to me that someone like Paul or Leto from the Dune series, would make for an intriguing opponent in a war. How would you fight an opponent who could predict all of your moves? (i suppose it'd depend on just how much magic he has). As a concept though, it could be interesting... You'd have to kill him quickly though, or he'd gain too much power and become unstoppable.