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| Nirvana2405-14-05, 11:39 PM | I'm a bit confused with the concept of how things were created, so would REALLY appreciate some hardcore FR historians to help me out. From what I understand, Ao created the universe, and inside this universe there are many worlds. One of these worlds is Toril. This is where I get confused. The creation of the races was done by Gods who, more or less, shaped creatures either based out of themselves, or were failed attempts at trying to make a race similar to the Elves- as done by the Seldarine. "The Seldarine modified some of the lands, making their worlds lush and green and beautiful. In addition, they created vessels that would one day hold the spirit of the first sentient life to set foot upon these worlds—the race of beings known as Elves. They crafted these vessels with thought and care, and gave them extraordinary beauty. The other gods grew black with jealousy, and they thirsted to imitate the Seldarine. " (a very good history site) My question is.. where exactly were these gods while they were creating everything? Did they exist on their own planet, did they float around in nothingness? And before you answer that, keep in mind that during the war between Corellon and Gruumsh, it is said that "the moon" cried. What moon? This sure eliminates the "float around in nothingness" theory. So were they on some planet then? A world they had already created? A world Ao created for deities? Why were all the gods on this single planet? How could they release these vessels to worlds they made if they themselves are on a planet? If they aren't on a planet, how can there be a moon? Cause I doubt all the worlds in the universe share a single moon. So if there is a moon, which planet's moon is it!? Then there is the whole confusion about the planar travelling. Are those portals still active in Toril and the other worlds? Are there constantly more races jumping through them and between worlds? Where are the portals located? That's the jist of my confusion. More questions may come though. Thanks in advance. |
| The Captain05-15-05, 12:02 AM | The moon is Selune and she's Toril's moon. There is a good history section at the begining of Magic of Faerun that could help you out a bit. Check out info on the creator races for who made who questions. The Serpent Kingdoms has some info on creator races and there are threads on this topic as well. Hope that helps some. |
| Myssa Rei05-15-05, 01:07 AM | I can posit some sources of lore that may or may not help you, considering that some of them were printed pre-3rd Edition. Still, it won't hurt, ne? Demihuman Deities Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3.0 Player's Guide to Faerun Faiths and Pantheons (ignore the stats of the gods) Magic of Faerun Serpent Kingdoms (for the sarrukh's take on the creation of Toril) Races of Faerun (tidbits of lore about the so-called interloper and native races of Toril) |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 01:44 AM | The moon is Selune and she's Toril's moon. How can the moon that cried be Toril's moon, when this story of Corellon vs Gruumsh is a general story, outside of FR lore? The moon can't be Toril's, cause that would mean all the gods lived there. And if all the gods lived there, why would they send vessels of life to different planets instead of just the one they were on? There were only 5 original races on Toril, elves not among them. And if the Seldarine's Elves were supposed to be the creations that made all the other gods jealous, why wouldn't they have bothered to put elves on Toril- (if we are assuming Toril is the planet where all this occured.) If Corellon battled Gruumsh on Toril, why would elves, the beings he created, have to come from another world? If Toril is Corellon's home world, why would it not be the home world of Elves too? And if all this did occur on Toril, when? Before the 5 original races or after? I've read Magic of Faerun and the campaign setting by the way. They say only what I have already stated, not answering any of my specific questions. They simply state chunks of things that "happened," without linking it all together. It just confuses me when they talk about Toril being some sort of main world, yet all of the races that live there save for a few came from other planets, which were made by deities who apparently were on Toril all along? It makes no sense... Someone give me Ed Greenwood's number? Time for a chat. |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 02:40 AM | And I don't even fully understand the idea of planes. Are planes meant to be like planets, or are planes meant to be like... other dimensions overlapping the same place in time? If spaceships existed, could you use them to travel the planes? Or would you just fly around in space and find other material planes/ planets like Greyhawk's world? Then there is this whole "Toril's cosmology thing is different than the core D&D cosmology thing" :embarrass What's the point of this? What's the difference, actually? Just that thing about not being able to travel from inner to outter planes, but needing to go through the material plane first? |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 03:22 AM | If I may humbly suggest, you might find a lot of answers you seek by reading this thread here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302068 It has a lot of discussion about the orgin of Toril, the planes and the creator races. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 03:57 AM | How can the moon that cried be Toril's moon, when this story of Corellon vs Gruumsh is a general story, outside of FR lore? The moon can't be Toril's, cause that would mean all the gods lived there. And if all the gods lived there, why would they send vessels of life to different planets instead of just the one they were on? Elves were not originally from Toril. They migrated to Faerun from the plane of Faerie over 25,000 years ago. The war between Corellon and Gruumsh happened around 31,000 years ago (we can infer this because according to Evermeet that event happened contemporaneously with the Seldarine civil war and the fall of Araushnee. Lost Empires of Faerun places that event as happening circa -30,000 DR) It is unclear whether the Seldarine interloped over to Toril before or after the events surrounding the fall of Lolth, but we know that the Seldarine are not native to Toril's cosmology and that they interloped into Toril's universe from another cosmology such as Greyhawk's Great Wheel or from the plane of Faerie. The Elven creation myth happened in another universe or universes and Elves are known to have spread to many other worlds before they ever migrated to Toril. There were only 5 original races on Toril, elves not among them. There are said to be 5 great creator races, but they were not the only native races on Toril. The 5 creator races were named that because they developed the 5 greatest native-born civilizations ever to arise on Toril. The creator races wielded powerful magic and dominated huge swaths of Faerun, and sired many of the races that would later come to populate the planet. Many of Toril's races did, though, indeed migrate (or interlope) to Toril from other universes through gates or portals or other interplanar magic. Elves and Dwarves and Orcs and Treants are some of the most notable ones. There are even some populations of humans that migrated to Toril from other worlds (such as those of Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara) although there were also native populations of humans, and indeed humans are considered one of the five creator races. And if the Seldarine's Elves were supposed to be the creations that made all the other gods jealous, why wouldn't they have bothered to put elves on Toril- (if we are assuming Toril is the planet where all this occured.) If Corellon battled Gruumsh on Toril, why would elves, the beings he created, have to come from another world? If Toril is Corellon's home world, why would it not be the home world of Elves too? And if all this did occur on Toril, when? Before the 5 original races or after? Corellon did not battle Gruumsh on Toril, he battled Gruumsh on the outer planes in the wilderness area between the borders of Olympus and the Seldarine realm of Arvandor. If this happened before the Seldarine interloped then this location would be on the Great Wheel on the plane of Arborea. If this event occured after the Seldarine interloped into Toril's cosmos, then this would have occured on the plane of Arvandor, between where Tyche's realm (also called Olympus) bordered on the Seldarine's celestial realm. Serpent Kingdoms tells us that these events happened after the rise and fall of 4 of the five creator races, who all reigned over Toril in the five millenia preceding the time of the Dragons. However, the elves migrated to Toril during the time of the Dragons (around -30,000 DR to -24,000 DR) and founded their great civilizations that flourished from about -24,000 DR to the time of the crown wars, and still persist to this day. However, the time of Man is said to have started around -9000 DR, and from then on humankind seems to have come into their own as a creator race, while the elves had been in retreat and had mostly abandonned Faerun for a very long time. |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 04:06 AM | Great thread, and it helped a little. I do have some questions of you since you seem to know quite a bit. My confusion, I suppose, is wrapped around 2 ideas. -The whole.. multi-cosmologies due to multi material planes. and - The First Flowering I don't understand how there can be multiple cosmologies. Is that to say that there are multiple Arvandor(s)? I don't see how there could be, as there is but one Corellon, so there has to be but one Arvandor. But if there ISN'T more than one... how can it exist in another cosmology? If all the D&D worlds (or material planes) used the same system, then I could see it making sense. But if Toril is to use it's own system of how planes are linked, shouldn't that affect how these "shared" planes are always going to be linked? I mean, why would going to a different material plane suddenly change the way that planes are connected? And my second question, regarding the First Flowering, I'll just stick with my examples with Corellon. First off, and this can be used as a general question for all deities, but who would have made Corellon? Where did he suddenly come from, as well as the rest of the Seldarine? Where did Corellon have all his battles with Gruumsh? Which plane? Which world? And it is to my understanding that all the gods worked together (for the first and last time) to form all the worlds together. Yet in the FRCS, and even in your post, you speak of Selune and Shar creating Toril. Why did they create Toril, as opposed to the other gods who "created all the worlds together." What makes Toril so special as to be made from Selune and Shar and not the other gods? Is this implying that Toril was the FIRST material plane, therefore, first world, ever made? And that worlds like Grayhawk came later? And what is Chauntea? |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 04:13 AM | (seems we were writing at the same time) Thanks for that long post. But I don't quite understand .. Plane of the Faerie? How come there is no Plane of The Faerie in Toril's Cosmology? Are you suggesting that differen't material plane's cosmologies hold different planes altogether? Different fire planes, even? And if they hold different planes... are you saying that people playing in Greyhawk are worshipping deities that don't even "live" in their cosmology? and when you say "It is unclear whether the Seldarine interloped over to Toril before or after the events surrounding the fall of Lolth," Isn't the fall of Lolth the whole Crown Wars event- which did happen when they were already on Toril, no? |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 04:28 AM | And I don't even fully understand the idea of planes. Are planes meant to be like planets, or are planes meant to be like... other dimensions overlapping the same place in time?The latter. Not like planets. More like overlapping dimensions that can only be traversed through powerful magic. If spaceships existed, could you use them to travel the planes? Or would you just fly around in space and find other material planes/ planets like Greyhawk's world?Spaceships do exist. They are called Spelljammers. They let you fly through space to other planets but not to other planes. Whether they let you somehow travel to other material planes like Greyhawk's universe or Krynn's just hasn't been explored or addressed in 3E rules, but the answer is yes if a DM wants it to, and no if a DM prefers not. You might check out the website www.spelljammer.org for their take on a 3E conversion of spelljamming. Then there is this whole "Toril's cosmology thing is different than the core D&D cosmology thing" :embarrass What's the point of this? What's the difference, actually? Just that thing about not being able to travel from inner to outter planes, but needing to go through the material plane first?With the advent of 3E, and the Manual of the Planes, the designers decided that all campaign settings would have their own separate cosmologies. Greyhawk's cosmology is the Great Wheel. Eberron's cosmology has planes that orbit each other like a solar system. Krynn has it's unique setup. When the designers were updating the FR setting to 3E, rather than imitate other cosmologies or duplicate Greyhawk's Great Wheel, the designers decided to create a new cosmology for Toril which was sort of tree-shaped. The new planes they created were more Faerun-o-centric, they did not use names from mytholgies and cultures that did not have a presence on Toril. They were based more on pantheon groupings rather than alignment. The designers also created some special rules such as the channeled Astral Plane and the pocket cosmologies that attach to different continents of Toril. You can read more about the planes of the new FR cosmology in the Players Guide to Faerun which has a very nice chapter that gives a lot of info about the cosmology and its attendant planes. It should be noted that some people were very fond of the old Great Wheel cosmology as detailed in the Manual of the Planes and the Planescape campaign setting books, and many people prefer to use that in their campaigns instead of the new Great Tree. You can read how passionately advocates of both cosmologies express themselves on these forums. As for which one you use, that is entirely up to you. You should use whichever cosmology suits your sensibilities and your campaign best. :) |
| Myssa Rei05-15-05, 05:07 AM | Gray-kun, I can name one particular Planescape scribe who might have a thing or two to say about this topic... Then again, it's better to let sleeping 'loths lie, if you know what I mean. Speaking of the interloper deities, Faiths and Pantheons (as well as mr. Richardson in his thread) posited that the non-native deities (the Seldarine, the Mordinsamman, etc.) had to create seperate 'aspects' of themselves for their peoples to worship. So basically, you have a Corellon in Oearth, and a Corellon in Faerun--both technically the same, but also different from each other. For example, if something happened to the aspect worshipped in Oearth, it won't necessarily affect Corellon in the Realms, and vise versa. Also, by extension, the relationships and animosities formed by the said interlopers don't carry over to the cosmonolohgies they emigrated to. While Labelas Enoreth and Clangeddin may still have some issues in the Realms (Labelas did destroy Clangeddin's avatar during the time of troubles), in other places where they are worshipped, those issues don't exist. Kind of confusing for someone who hasn't played through 2nd Ed or Planescape, huh? |
| Another Gnome05-15-05, 05:23 AM | Kind of confusing for someone who hasn't played through 2nd Ed or Planescape, huh? Far less confusing, I would say. Can't tell there's a contradiction if there's nothing to compare to. :) |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 05:35 AM | I don't understand how there can be multiple cosmologies.Every campaign setting now has it's own unique cosmology. They are considered to be alternate material planes. If you ever saw the Star Trek episode with the Mirror Universe, or if you ever saw the TV show Sliders, or if you are familiar with such alternate history books by Harry Turtledove. Or even alternate universes like in the Chronicles of Narnia, or Alice in Wonderland. Each world has its own gods and its own set of planes. Some of the universes are very similar. Some worlds have parallel versions of the same people and the same gods, but those people might have different jobs or different personal histories because history was different on their world. Is that to say that there are multiple Arvandor(s)?Yes. When the Seldarine interloped over to Toril, they created a new plane as their home (or stole part of a plane from the Giants apparently) and they named it Arvandor after their homeland on the Great Wheel, and they fashioned it to look very similar to the place they had come from. I suppose they could have named it New Arvandor, but they were not apparently very creative on this point and just called it Arvandor. Perhaps because their worshippers still called it Arvandor and they didn't want to confuse anybody. Or perhaps because of the very fact that their worshippers on Toril believed their heaven was called Toril and believed it looked a certain way, the Seldarine were powerless to call it anything else or change the look of it from what it had been. I don't see how there could be, as there is but one Corellon.Ah, but there is not only one Corellon. If a god has worshippers in two different cosmologies, he has to split off a fragment of himself to send to the second cosmology. Think of this as an avatar or a clone. This fragment has to be accepted by Ao in order to take its place as a god in Toril's universe. And from that point on the fragment is a separate entity from it's other self in the other universe. The two fragments can develop very different personalities from one another and even have different families, different wives and different personal histories, and even different divine ranks and different powers or portfolios from each other, even though they have the same name and used to be part of the same god. Gods can even fragment on Toril when a population of their worshippers splits off and becomes isolated and develops different conceptions of that god. For instance Chauntea split off a fragment called the Earthmother with a completely different aspect and personality from Chauntea. Likewise the original god of War of Toril fragmented into Tempus and Targus and Garagos. And there are other examples. And my second question, regarding the First Flowering, I'll just stick with my examples with Corellon. First off, and this can be used as a general question for all deities, but who would have made Corellon?Ah, good question. No one really knows. Did he create the elves or did the elves create him through the power of their belief? As far as Toril is concerned, he came from outside the universe many thousands of years ago. He came when the elves migrated to Toril from the world of Faerie. He split off a fragment of himself and jouneyed into the Great Tree and asked Ao if he could enter into the comsmology so that he could tend to the religious needs of his people. Ao accepted the Seldarine because Ao seems particularly concerned that everybody on Toril have a god to worship that is acceptable to them. Where did he suddenly come from, as well as the rest of the Seldarine?He probably came over from the Great Wheel cosmology or whatever cosmology is linked to the world/plane of Faerie. Where did Corellon have all his battles with Gruumsh? Which plane? Which world?I think I have answered this. According to the novel Evermeet, the battle where Corellon blinded Gruumsh's eye took place on the outerplanes in the wilderness area between the realm of Olympus and the Seldarine kingdom of Arvandor. It probably happened on the Great Wheel, but it is unclear from the literature so far exactly when the Seldarine (and the Orc gods for that matter) actually interloped into Faerun's cosmology. Faerun's cosmology also has a plane named Arvandor, and used to have a divine Realm named Olympus which was what Tyche named her divine realm when she interloped over from the Greek pantheon. Tyche named her realm of Olympus of course after the Greek mountain of the same name. Just like the Seldarine named their Arvandor after the ARvandor they had come from. Apparently Interloper gods are not that creative about naming their home planes. I guess they get very attached to names after living in a a place for a few thousand years. And it is to my understanding that all the gods worked together (for the first and last time) to form all the worlds together.That is a myth that does not hold sway in the Forgotten Realms Cosmology. It may have been true for the Great Wheel or some other universe, but not for Toril. On Toril, Ao created the universe. It was empty save for a shadowy mist. Shar and Selune congealed out of the mists and created the celestial bodies including Toril. Shar and Selune together created the goddess of life that filled all of the universe, although later this goddess would contract or fragment herself to the point that Chauntea was just the goddess of life of Toril.Yet in the FRCS, and even in your post, you speak of Selune and Shar creating Toril. Why did they create Toril, as opposed to the other gods who "created all the worlds together."Separate universe, separate creation myth. It's just the way it happened in Toril's universe.What makes Toril so special as to be made from Selune and Shar and not the other gods?There were no other gods at the time. Ao only created the empty universe. Then he appears to have sat back and watched things unfold. Shar and Selune appeared and were the first two gods, sisters who loved each other deeply and reveled in creation. Shar and Selune created Chauntea. The universe was filled with life, but it was a cold life, bereft of warmth or sunlight. Chauntea begged for warmth and Selune and Shar fought over whether to provide that warmth for her. Shar liked things the way they were, saw her and Selune as equals, and feared the creation of a sun would diminish her, perhaps even kill her, extinguishing her darkness. Shar saw such ideas as a betrayal, and she waged war on her sister and her offspring. This was the War of Light and Darkness, and from this war many other gods were born of the new concepts introduced by the war. War, Hatred, Death, Destruction, Disease and so on. The Sun god and Mystryl the goddess of Magic were also born from this time. Over the eons many new gods have arisen as well as interloper gods that came from other universes and set up shop.Is this implying that Toril was the FIRST material plane, therefore, first world, ever made?No. In fact it may be younger than many other universes. Ao was perhaps a god from another universe that rose to overgod status (divine rank 21 or higher) and decided to create his own universe. Toril has a written history that goes back about 35-40 thousand years or so. How much older it is than that we don't know. It could have been created as early as 40,000 years ago, or it could be billions of years old like our own Earth. But it seems likely that Toril is not the first universe. Eberron for instnace has a written history that goes back 300,000 years, so it may be a lot older than Toril, but we just don't know for sure.And that worlds like Grayhawk came later?Greyhawk probably came before Toril, at least I like to think so. But again, we don't really know for sure. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 06:02 AM | But I don't quite understand .. Plane of the Faerie? How come there is no Plane of The Faerie in Toril's Cosmology?I don't want to confuse matters for you. We may be talking about two different planes here that were both named Faerie. There is a plane of Faerie detailed in the Manual of the Planes. It is something like an outer plane, and Faerun may actually have a plane of Faerie that has not been detailed in the current cosmology. We know the Sylvan creator race, who some people call "Faerie" rose to dominance around -34,000 DR. The fey peoples are still around today, although their great empire of times past seems to have dwindled from what it was at it's Zenith. They seem to have fought a war with the Dragons or the Demons which caused them to retreat to the woodland places and hidden places of Faerun. The gods of the Faerie, the Faerie pantheon may have lived in an outer plane of Faerie. However, this plane of Faerie may have lost most of its links to Faerun a long time ago and if it is connected still to Faerun, the links are tenuous and not well known. Sometimes planes slip beyond the Astral or implode when the belief in them fails. This has happened many times throughout the history of Faerun, and the plane of Faerie may be one of those lost or dead planes, although I like to think it may still yet live. ;) The world of Faerie that the elves came from may possibly have been in the plane of Faerie that I discussed above, however Ed Greenwood called it an alternate material plane in some of his answers over on Candlekeep, in which case the world of Faerie where the elves came from may just be a planet in another universe separate from the universe of Toril. I hope this bit answers more questions than I am creating for you. If it is not clear, I am happy to discuss it further.Are you suggesting that differen't material plane's cosmologies hold different planes altogether? Well, not so much suggesting, as stating it as a fact. Greyhawk's universe has different planes from Krynn has different planes from Eberron has different planes from Toril.Different fire planes, even?Yes. Cosmologies are not required to have elemental planes, or even to divide their elements up according to fire, water, earth and air, but the elemental planes of Greyhawk are not the same elemental planes as Toril's. They each have their own separate fire plane. That is unless a DM decides that they are the same which is certainly a DM's right. And if they hold different planes... are you saying that people playing in Greyhawk are worshipping deities that don't even "live" in their cosmology?No, I don't think so if I get your question. All the gods that the people of Greyhawk worship live within their cosmology. All the gods that the Faerunian's worship live within their cosmology. The Lolth that is worshipped by Greyhawk is a different Lolth than the one worshipped in Faerun. They may be similar, clones even, but they are separate entities.and when you say "It is unclear whether the Seldarine interloped over to Toril before or after the events surrounding the fall of Lolth," Isn't the fall of Lolth the whole Crown Wars event- which did happen when they were already on Toril, no? No the Crown Wars happened from around -12,000 DR to -9,000 DR with the Descent of the Drow event occuring around -10,000 DR. Araushnee/Lolth was thrown out of Arvandor around -30,000 DR according to LEOF, so her fall was not contemporaneous with the fall of the dark elves, although the two events seem to echo one another. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 06:24 AM | Gray-kun, I can name one particular Planescape scribe who might have a thing or two to say about this topic... Then again, it's better to let sleeping 'loths lie, if you know what I mean.Myssa-chan, the esteemed Shemeska is a 'loth that I very much respect. Shemeska is a passionate proponent of the Great Wheel cosmology, whereas I am an equally ardent supporter of the Great Tree. Despite our differing views on the matter, we have had many wonderful and impassioned (yet polite!) dialogs regarding the planes on these forums. I have an abiding interest and admiration for her views even if I don't always share them. Speaking of the interloper deities, Faiths and Pantheons (as well as mr. Richardson in his thread) posited that the non-native deities (the Seldarine, the Mordinsamman, etc.) had to create seperate 'aspects' of themselves for their peoples to worship. So basically, you have a Corellon in Oearth, and a Corellon in Faerun--both technically the same, but also different from each other. For example, if something happened to the aspect worshipped in Oearth, it won't necessarily affect Corellon in the Realms, and vise versa.Precisely! :D Also, by extension, the relationships and animosities formed by the said interlopers don't carry over to the cosmonolohgies they emigrated to. While Labelas Enoreth and Clangeddin may still have some issues in the Realms (Labelas did destroy Clangeddin's avatar during the time of troubles), in other places where they are worshipped, those issues don't exist.Yes and no. Gruumsh and Corellon seem to hate each other no matter what universe they find themselves in. However, if Gruumsh and Corellon were to hypothetically declare a truce in the Forgotten Realms, perhaps even form a grudging friendship, this truce or friendship would not necessarily hold in other universes where their counterparts might still be warring furiously. Once the fragments split off from each other, they become separate personalities that may grow in very different directions. No doubt in some universes, Araushnee never fell, and may continue to be the beloved consort of Corellon. And in some universeses Araushnee may have succeeded in engineering the death of Corellon, and she may yet reign over the Seldarine, beautiful and terrible as the dawn. Tempestuous as the sea, and stronger than the foundations of Arvandor. ;) Kind of confusing for someone who hasn't played through 2nd Ed or Planescape, huh?Well, I hope not. I have a great faith that people with a questioning mind and an open heart can comprehend and come to their own conclusions. ;) |
| Myssa Rei05-15-05, 08:24 AM | Oh, and another thing... Post-"Die Vecna, DIE!!", the plane of shadows (once a demiplane) now serves as a sort of highway to other cosmonologies. Well, the Deeper Shadow, anyway. The links are random, and fraught with danger (not to mention extremely hard to locate), but if an adventurer *does* find one, he or she can jump cosmonologies. From the Great Wheel (Greyhawk) to the Great Tree (Forgotten Realms), for example. Or from the Planar Orrery (Eberron) to the Dark Mirror (the doppel cosmonology I campaign in). Of course, this doesn't always work two-way. But that's the chance you have to take in exploring realities. :) |
| Razz05-15-05, 09:44 AM | I can see what the problem is here. WotC screwed everything up instead of taking off where TSR left off. Trying to be so cool, they flipped everything around and have confused the crap out of new D&D players that did not have previous relations with 2E products and with Planescape. The answers are all in Planescape. See, before this cosmology crap was created, there was only ONE cosmology. The Great Wheel. WotC should've stayed with that for ALL campaign settings (introducing new planes as demiplanes with immeasurable borders). But they didn't. They tried giving each campaign their own cosmology, thus completely cutting off all other worlds with each other and completely destroying the all logical explanation. The only connection now is through the Plane of Shadow, where you can access alternate Material Planes or even alternate cosmologies. Prime example, the city of Sigil. It's a fact Sigil exists both in the Greyhawk cosmology AND the Forgotten Realms cosmology...but there is no room for it in the Forgotten Realms cosmology anymore. Now the question is, does Sigil exist simultaneously between all cosmologies? Or does it only exist in Greyhawk's cosmology but contains portals leading to other cosmologies? The awesome thing about Planescape was that it connected every campaign setting into one extraplanar setting. Rather than the deities each living on a separate, newly created plane (such as what WotC did with 3E Forgotten Realms), each deity lived on a plane that closely matched their alignment and had what they called a "realm" on that plane. The House of the Triad, for example, is not an entire outer plane in and of itself, but a massive realm within the outer plane of Mount Celestia, on one of its layers (I think it was the 2nd layer). The confusion about the elves history on Toril was easily explained with Planescape in mind. The elves were created on another Material Plane, and migrated to Toril. Obviously, the immigrants brought along their story of their creation and the legend itself adopted Toril as its home also. Another explanation was each Material Plane or world actually worshipped the same deity as other Material Plane creatures, but in a different aspect. Prime example, Paladine and Takhisis are rumored (and I believe it's true) to be the aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. Considered greater deities in Krynn, but in Toril as demigods. So...to avoid confusion, get some Planescape material and use the Great Wheel cosmology for Forgotten Realms. I do. That FR cosmology makes things inconsistent. I simply took the planes in that cosmology and left them as the realms they should've been in their respective Great Wheel outer planes. Others I simply made as demiplanes (such as Cynosure and the Fugue Plane). This doesn't change a thing from what was previously done back in 2E at all. |
| Kuje3105-15-05, 12:42 PM | Others I simply made as demiplanes (such as Cynosure and the Fugue Plane). This doesn't change a thing from what was previously done back in 2E at all. Actually in 2e Cynosure was a demiplane, so said the Guide to the Ethereal. :) And I'm staying out of the arguement if this turns into that arguement again, maybe. :) |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 01:19 PM | Well heck. Thanks a lot for taking the time to post all this. It has cleared up a LOT of confusion. :) This is where I was confused: I was thinking that there was only one universe, and that this one universe was made by Ao. That gods came about, made ALL of the planets in this ONE universe, and spread about their races in these "vessels" to other planets. I also thought that these worlds in this one universe would be the equivalent of like ... Earth and Mars (if we pretend mars has life and stuff) so therefore Toril could be like a planet or so away from the Greyhawk world. I never thought of the possibilities of multi-universes. So this leaves me with the question of how would the shadow planes be able to connect material planes to one another, and therefore, how would the shadow plane be able to connect different universes to one another? Was Ao created? What is Chauntea? Just another name for Toril? Or something deeper? I also never knew about this God division. About deities sending replicates of themselves to different universes therefore being in different universes at different times. That sures clears up a lot of my questions. Regarding Selune and Shar. They would be specific to Toril's universe then? Here is a quote from a website that has the history of elves. (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/history.htm) "From the primordial turmoil at the center of the universe sprang the gods full-fledged, full-formed. Each claimed jurisdiction over certain effects, all being equally endowed with the power and force of the cosmos. They cooperated for the first (and the last) time to create the worlds. But some gods used their powers more wisely than their brethren. An early alliance formed among these wiser gods. They knew how to manipulate their power. This gathering of gods, who called themselves the Seldarine (or the Brothers and Sisters of the Wood), imparted their very essence into creating certain aspects of the worlds. ... The gods of the new races tried too hastily to reproduce a feat that had taken the wiser gods eons. But neither group's constructs would not come to life until the historic meeting between Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh, leader of the Anti-Seldarine. " Can we assume then that in some of the universes that the worlds within them were made by all the gods together? Toril of course not existing yet. And there is still the matter of this moon that cried when it thought Corellon had fallen to Gruumsh. The tears were said to have fallen onto his face, and then he lashed out and took out Gruumsh's eye. But you are saying that this whole battle would have occured between two outter planes and not on some material plane. How? Do all the planes share the same moon then? Am I just picturing this whole layout wrong or something? Are the planes literally overlapping one another, so that the material planes landscape is the same as their other planes? If you look to the sky, is the moon going to be in the same position for all the planes? Or are the planes tucked away in different locations within the universe? |
| Alac Luin05-15-05, 07:25 PM | [QUOTE=Nirvana24Isn't the fall of Lolth the whole Crown Wars event- which did happen when they were already on Toril, no?[/QUOTE] I'll just hit this one since no one else seems to. The fall of Lolth happened long before the crown wars started. It was in part due to the fact that many Drow turnede to worship the fallen Lolth during the crown wars that led to their "descent" |
| Myssa Rei05-15-05, 07:41 PM | For more clarity on the issue of the planes, it would be best if you picked up both the Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook. Both, if a little oversimplified, explain the planes of the Great Wheel cosmonology (the so-called 'core' D&D). For more a more in-depth narrative of the history of the planes, and the races they hold, then it would be best if you started searching for Planescape material. By the way, once upon a time, each campaign setting could be thought of as individual solar systems, held inside a 'crystal sphere'. Faerun, for example, was located in a planet called Abeir-Toril, with Selune as its moon, while Greyhawk was located in Oearth, etc. This is where the concept of spelljamming came in as a way to travel in between settings, using the phlogiston that existed in between the spheres to travel. Of course, WotC changed all that with 3rd Edition. :) Ao, while an overdeity, is hinted to be serving someone else, a 'luminous entity' (which is always inferred to be you, the DM), and as such, might be thought of as 'created'. For all intents and purporses though, in Toril at least, he is the overbeing, the prime mover, the 'board of directors' of the massive corporation that is the Faerunian pantheon. Chauntea, Shar, and Selune, of course, are Toril-specific, and as such don't have aspects in other cosmonologies. Other deities however, like Tyr, the Seldarine, the Dark Seldarine, the Dragon deities, have other aspects, though these facts are not known by the common folk of the Realms heartland. As for the moon crying out when Corellon had fallen... That refers to Sehanine Moonbow, the elven goddess of the Moon, whose tears, it is said, mingled with Corellon's blood (read Sehanine's entry in the Faiths and Pantheons supplement), and finally gave rise to the elves. While it isn't quite specified which universe this event occured, it can be inferred that it must have been the Great Wheel, or the plane of Faerie. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 07:47 PM | how would the shadow planes be able to connect material planes to one another, and therefore, how would the shadow plane be able to connect different universes to one another?There are several ways to travel between universes. The plane of Shadow is one way. The plane of Shadow is said to join Alternate Prime Material Planes together. How does it join them? No one is really sure, but some have speculated that the shadows in the shadow plane are shadows of all possibilities. Others believe that Shadow is the void in which all prime material planes float. Your guess is as good as mine. To travel the plane of shadow to another world you first have to enter the plane, there you will see a shadow version of the landscape you came from. Movement is a lot quicker in the shadow realm, you can travel very far, very fast there. To go to another universe you have to travel beyond the shadows of the world you came from to a place of deep shadow, the interstitial darkness that separates the shadow realms of various prime worlds. You travel through deep shadow until you see the shadow landscape of your destination world. From there you can exit the plane of Shadow and find yourself in Greyhawk or whatever your target world was. You may need a map or a special compass or navigation equipment. The details about transiting through shadow have not been thoroughly fleshed out in 3E rules, so the DM will have to work out the particulars. Other ways to travel between universes: the Infinite Staircase. Portals to the city of Sigil which has portals in turn to everywhere. A direct portal to another world (Faerun has many portals to Greyhawk, Krynn, Earth, Ravenloft and many other worlds.) Possibly spelljamer ships (if the DM allows it). The Far Realms exist outside of cosmologies, so you might be able to traverse them to reach another universe. I am sure there are other methods that I am forgetting but those are the main ones off the top of my head. :) |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 07:56 PM | Was Ao created?Hmmm... good question. His origin is a mystery and has never been detailed in realms literature. There is some evidence that he reports to a higher authority. A luminous being or beings. Ao is an overgod, which is an entity with a divine rank of 21 or greater. Sort of an epic level god. Overgods do not need worshippers, they are more powerful than any god and they seem to have access to salient overdivine abilities, one of which appears to be something like "create universe." Overgods are nigh unfathomable, and Ao is no different. We don't know where he came from, but it could be he was once an ordinary god (below divine rank 21) in some other universe before he transcended to overgod status. Not only did he create Toril's universe, but he has laws that the gods must follow, he is the ultimate authority on who can become a god, and he acts as a stern office manager to ensure that the universe runs smoothly. Other than that he operates behind the scenes and (almost) never appears to mortals. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:08 PM | What is Chauntea? Just another name for Toril? Or something deeper?She is the goddess of Life of the Faerunian Pantheon. Originally she was the embodiment of all life within Realmspace, but she has since contracted or fragmented off aspects of herself so that Chauntea specifically is the life goddess of the Faerunian Pantheon. The Earthmother of the Moonshaes is a fragment/aspect of her. Jannath was the netherese name for her, although it is unclear if Jannath was a separate fragment of her or just another name she used. It may be that Chauntea left fragments of herself on the other planets of Realmspace so that you might find an aspect of Chauntea on Glyth, or H'Catha or Coliar (these are other planets in Toril's solar system and can be seen as stars in Toril's night sky.) But this is just shear speculation on my part. Although an intriguing possibility... Glyth for instance is an illithid world, so Chauntea's aspect on that world may look like a mindflayer or an elder brain perhaps or some sort of alien plant. She might be the goddess of Glyth's vegetation, agriculture or wild beasts. Or maybe Ilsensine long ago devoured that aspect of her. In fact it wouldn't surprise me at all if the beholder goddess of the Great Mother either ate or merged with that aspect of Chauntea found on H'catha the beholder planet. But then again it might be fun if the aspect of Chauntea on H'catha has survived in some fashion. |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 08:09 PM | Hmm.. things seems much clearer. Thanks everyone. There is just the matter of that last question of mine in my previous post. The one about planes having the same landscape and just being overlaps of eachother, or are they seperate things that are tucked away elsewhere in the universe? |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:10 PM | Regarding Selune and Shar. They would be specific to Toril's universe then?Yep. They are unique to the FR cosmology. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:11 PM | Can we assume then that in some of the universes that the worlds within them were made by all the gods together? Toril of course not existing yet.Sure! :) |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:18 PM | And there is still the matter of this moon that cried when it thought Corellon had fallen to Gruumsh. The tears were said to have fallen onto his face, and then he lashed out and took out Gruumsh's eye. But you are saying that this whole battle would have occured between two outter planes and not on some material plane. How? Do all the planes share the same moon then? The moon in this instance was Sehanine Moonbow, the elven goddess of the Moon who was searching for Corellon. She is one of Corellon's consorts. She is the personification of the moon in elven mythology. I forget the details from Evermeet, but she knew something was up with Corellon, I think she may have discovered Araushnee's plot or at least knew something was fishy, possibly having to do with a defect in Corellon's sword. I think she found Corellon at the last minute and was able to turn the tide in his battle with Gruumsh. |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 08:20 PM | Are "The Far Realms" meant to be like outter space? And what exactly is the Ethereal Plane? Is physically travelling to other universes impossible then? or when we are saying universes, are we really meaning galaxies, where all these worlds and their planes are infact apart of one big universe? And who made Sigil? How do you get to it? And do planes, other than the material plane, have an outter space? Are you able to leave them physically? |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:36 PM | Am I just picturing this whole layout wrong or something? Are the planes literally overlapping one another, so that the material planes landscape is the same as their other planes? If you look to the sky, is the moon going to be in the same position for all the planes? Or are the planes tucked away in different locations within the universe?The planes do not relate to each other spatio-temporally. They are separted metaphysically by the Astral Plane. Some planes are coexistent (overlap) others are coterminous (touch each other at certain border points) and some do not touch each other at all and must be accessed by traversing a transitive plane (such as the Astral). The layout in Toril's cosmology is usually represented by a diagram that looks something like a tree. But that is just a way for humans to visualize how the planes relate to each other in terms that we can comprehend. The hyperdimensional geometry of the planes is perhaps not completely fathomable by mortals. But it's all fantasy physics anyway. The "science" of it is governed by literary concerns that make for good gaming and good storytelling. ;) The moon in every plane will be different. They all have their own particular set up. Some planes don't even have moons and some don't have suns. The Barrens of Doom & Despair for instance just has a perpetually glowing red sky obscured by dark clouds. |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:43 PM | Are "The Far Realms" meant to be like outter space?No they are utterly alien. They defy all physical laws. Think H.P. Lovecraft and Cthulhu. Certain aberrations are thought to come from there. The Far Realms exist outside the universe, beyond the borders of the cosmology. They are not exactly a plane like the other planes within the cosmology. The recent book Lords of Madness is an excellent tome which adresses the Far Realms. :coolcthul |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 08:49 PM | And what exactly is the Ethereal Plane?It is the plane of incorporeality. It is the plane of ghosts. It is the spirit realm. It is a plane of mists and fog. It overlaps the material plane, but it is out of phase with the material world. Monsters live there. Check out the DM's guide for more information about the Ethereal Plane. :ghosted: |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 09:01 PM | Is physically travelling to other universes impossible then?Yes. You cannot get to another universe without the aid of some kind of magic.or when we are saying universes, are we really meaning galaxies, where all these worlds and their planes are infact apart of one big universe?Nope, not galaxies. 2E spelljamming worked something like that. But in 3E they are all separate universes.And who made Sigil? No one knows. Maybe the Lady of Pain, maybe the Imaskari, but it's really an enduring mystery. How do you get to it?You cannot travel to Sigil except by the use of a portal. Sigil has portals to every plane in every universe. You can read more about Sigil in the recently published Planar Handbook or at the www.planewalker.com websiteAnd do planes, other than the material plane, have an outter space? Not usually. Only the outerspace of the prime material plane was ever explored in the Spelljammer campaign setting. I suppose it is possible for some planes to have something like an outer space.Are you able to leave them physically?Yes, if they are coterminous. Sometimes you need the assistance of magic to travel between the planes but sometimes if a plane is coterminous with another you can just walk between them. For instance the plane of the Blood Rift frequently becomes coterminous with many of the fiendish planes. When that happens you can walk or swim between them. There are other features like the River of Blood which lets you sail between the fiendish planes, and there is a celestial tree which connects the celestial planes that you can literally climb to reach the next plane. |
| Nirvana2405-15-05, 09:10 PM | Well thanks a lot, Gray. You have cleared up pretty much all of my questions. At least all of the ones I can think of! I'll check out all the books you all recommened now that I have a good general understanding of this whole thing. Again, thank you. I'll be bookmarking this thread for frequent use. :pint: |
| Gray Richardson05-15-05, 10:52 PM | Anytime! If you ever have any more questions, feel free to ask! :D |
| Gray Richardson12-03-05, 05:55 AM | :bump: |
| Nirvana2408-03-06, 03:52 AM | Ah, what a good thread. I still use this for reference whenever I'm confused. Thanks again, Gray! :clap: :bow: :tiphat: :pint: :thumbsup: :cheer: :w00t: :dancin: :ayyyy!: :chicken:? :D |