Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kaeso 06-15-06, 04:18 PM	I have two groups playing campaigns in the Moonsea, and I was reading through Mysteries of the Moonsea at Borders when a thought occured to me- why the hell would my players wanna be here? I was recently reading through one of the DM Guides, and it said that you should have safe places for your PC's. It said you shouldn't overwhelm them w/ totally uncooperative, evil PC's. Doesn't the Moonsea REALLY do this? I was thinking of possibly having a 'sanctuary' somewhere in the Moonsea where good people are living in hiding, and so that way the players would really have something to motivate them to fight for. I know that the people of the Moonsea are still people, and so good characters should fight to defend them even if they are xenophobic and generally cranky, but I really don't think that's enough to motivate my players. Should I make a sanctuary for the players, or should I move the campaign to a different region? Or am I just wrong? Thanks for your feedback.
ikki 06-15-06, 04:46 PM	Its not like the are eating babies and summmoning demons to rape nymphs.. rather a hard edged neutrality: If it doesent give profit, TO ME(!), then it is useless. But yeah, no harpers or goodie good two shoes waiting to hand over free healing potions or give sanctuary. So mess around all you like, just dont mess with the all too powerful groups. And yes, if they go and burn down a zent warehouse or assassinate a leader therein, they have pain coming their way. A bit like someone deciding to hand out poisoned candy to kids in waterdeep... It just takes a group that knows that EVERY evil cannot be challenged, even if it happens in front of them.
BrianCritchley 06-15-06, 05:07 PM	aye and the fact is just cause he's evil doesn't mean he's out to get you.
GothicDan 06-15-06, 10:28 PM	As has been stated above... Evil can just mean greedy, not murder-worthy and actively hostile.
Thelandrach 06-15-06, 11:03 PM	umm... the SRD would seem to disagree with Evil being just greedy... "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. That's a short example of an alignment, and fairly simplistic, but if they're trying to give a one-paragraph description of something, I don't think there's too much room for "just greed" in that paragraph...
BrianCritchley 06-15-06, 11:25 PM	umm... the SRD would seem to disagree with Evil being just greedy... That's a short example of an alignment, and fairly simplistic, but if they're trying to give a one-paragraph description of something, I don't think there's too much room for "just greed" in that paragraph... no and just greed isn't evil it's acting on that greed. a merchant who basicly cheats his customers could be evil even if he never actually KILLED anyone
GothicDan 06-16-06, 12:08 AM	That's a short example of an alignment, and fairly simplistic, but if they're trying to give a one-paragraph description of something, I don't think there's too much room for "just greed" in that paragraph... And the Moonsea (and FR in general) wasn't designed with the alignment system in mind, so 'standard' definitions of "good and evil" are not going to fit it well.
ArnimThayer 06-16-06, 12:50 AM	Actually, Champions of Valor introduces a group known as the Knights of the North (page 92) that are dedicated to the overthrowing the Zhentarim. They have safehouses throughout the Moonsea and are actively recruiting. They come with a nifty bit of history and an attached PRC (Moonsea Skysentinel). Check it out! :)
kaeso 06-16-06, 01:09 AM	ArnimThayer, YOU ARE MY HERO! That is so cool! I'll DEFINITELY check it out. I really only need the good peeps for one group, because they have a paladin and are all generally good. The other group... a drow rogue, a human barbarian, and a human wizard. Generally all true neutral or chaotic neutral. Ya, they don't need this. I think they'll just have to be really really careful :) Oh, I have another question. When books have maps of regions, like the Moonsea, and cities are shown on the map, is it assumed there are tiny villages and towns spread out between them? Or are they all marked down? I wasn't sure. It seemed to me the answer is 'they are all marked down' but I wasn't sure.
ArnimThayer 06-16-06, 09:55 AM	In general, count the Moonsea area as "all mapped down." The conflict in that area is so strong between the city states that many small towns get crushed by the effort to "conquest" an area, such as poor Teshwave. In 2nd Edition, there was a Moonsea accessory that covered the area pretty much in depth, including maps of areas such as the Citadel of the Ravens. The map inside doesn't show any big unnamed spots that I can see, though there is a place called Elmwoood on the southern shore of the Moonsea, far from the conflicts. I looked into this area about 4 years ago when my players decided they wanted to play in an "Evil" campaign instead of a "Heroic" campaign. I used the Citadel as a base, and made them all members of the Zhentarim answerable to a NPC mage, who had "rescued" them from various tight spots. I set the campaign in the time just prevous to Mansoon moving his base of operations there and the fall of Zhentil Keep. The party consisted of an fanatical Orthodox Banite priest hiding from Cyricists (he begain all combat with the phrase "Do you serve the Lord of All Strife or the Baneson?" before pummeling his foes), a halfling ranger (who had been saved from a Hillsfar demi-human hunting party), a Sembian female swashbuckler mercenary (who had run afoul of Thayan slavers), and a Shade rogue. The last was kind of touchy, but the basic premise was that Shade had sent other more expendable people before Melegaunt, just to be sure it would work. As a criminal, he was given a chance at this or death, with his assignment being to scout the Moonsea area for potnetial allies. He was unfortunately caught by the NPC mage while trying to steal items from the Zhentarim, and was spared only by his whim. The fun of running this campaign wasn't just the diverse characters involved, but the idea that I could pull out all the really evil plots and use them against the characters. They had no one to trust but themselves, and that very warily, since betrayal is a regular feature of advancement in the Zhentarim. The party helped reclaim Teshwave from Hilsfar, fought with various factions within the Zhentarim in defense of their "master", and at one time sold the swashbuckler to the same Thayan envoy that the wizard had rescued her from, only to have to save her again or face his wrath! The NPC wizard, as run by me, fed them just as much disinformation as real information, keeping them on their toes and treating them like favored pets, right until the very end when he tried to overthrow Manshoon. The party did me proud by proving they had learned from the best, and betraying their master in the middle of a huge battle between him and Manshoon. ;)
Dargoth 06-16-06, 10:24 AM	Where also getting a MoM WE which will detail Phlan a city with strong ties to the Church of Tyr
Jiggawha 06-16-06, 10:25 AM	Elventree is usually a refuge for good people in that region, Harpers are very influential there. If you are looking for a larger town then use Thentia (haven for good, retired powerful mages).
kaeso 06-16-06, 01:56 PM	For my group of good characters, I'm running the Age of Worms campaign. In the first adventure the characters are in a town called Diamond Lake, which is very corrupt. The town is built around a lake, but I think I'm just gonna have it on the edge of the Moonsea. Really not a big change, so no worries. In the campaign there are some good people, so I think I'm going to have them be either secretly friendly to the Nights of the North. I might consider having them break off from the Age of Worms campaign for a bit, just so that they can visit one of the good towns you guys've mentioned and get emotionally attached to it, so that they'll really have something to fight for when they discover the intentions of the bad guys in the campaign.
Rauric 06-16-06, 06:10 PM	The Moonsea is a funn cmapign area if you don't worry about alignment much. For experienced gamers I think alignment just gets in the way. It's too black and white and not enough gray. People have alot of gray in them especially adventurer types imo.
GothicDan 06-16-06, 09:18 PM	Actually, alignment has a lot of grey in it. It's the interpretation of many that it's black and white. Innately, it is no such thing; Gary Gygax, who made it, says so himself. Reading the inspiration for its inception (The Elric Saga) shows as much, too. It's only 3E that's tried to make things so black and white, probably because it then seems edgier when the "black" side is highlighted.
BrianCritchley 06-16-06, 09:36 PM	and even then 3E hasn't made it black and white it's just that at the extremes things are pretty black and white, an angel vs a demon is gonna be very much black and white, two people however it may be less so
GothicDan 06-16-06, 09:53 PM	Well the majority of new players certainly are getting the black and white idea from somewhere... And they're reading 3E books. ;)
BrianCritchley 06-16-06, 10:35 PM	Well the majority of new players certainly are getting the black and white idea from somewhere... And they're reading 3E books. ;) well 2E I'm sure had plenty of newbies who had a black and white view of alignment, the internet just allows it to show a bit more ;)
GothicDan 06-16-06, 10:59 PM	It certainly did.. But the internet still existed during 2E, too. I know, because I started playing FR online. :)
BrianCritchley 06-16-06, 11:22 PM	It certainly did.. But the internet still existed during 2E, too. I know, because I started playing FR online. :) true but the jnet's only become a fairly big thing in the last 7 years or so. did TSR even have message boards?
TheGatesofFire 06-16-06, 11:31 PM	Is it just me or can my 23rd level Fighter kill the entire Red Plumes army in a matter or minutes lol...I think listing them as war1 instead of ftr1 was rather dissappointing to me due to the fact I hate the Zhentarim and Bane. But anyway how could a War1 or Warriors for say, ever hope to fight or repel an attack from Ftr1 or Fighters even that the Zhents have. It seems the Red Plumes as they say are just bullies and not real time soldiers.
BrianCritchley 06-16-06, 11:34 PM	Is it just me or can my 23rd level Fighter kill the entire Red Plumes army in a matter or minutes lol...I think listing them as war1 instead of ftr1 was rather dissappointing to me due to the fact I hate the Zhentarim and Bane. But anyway how could a War1 or Warriors for say, ever hope to fight or repel an attack from Ftr1 or Fighters even that the Zhents have. It seems the Red Plumes as they say are just bullies and not real time soldiers. armies tend to be made up of low level warriors. Fighters are the exceptional ones.
Dargoth 06-17-06, 07:57 PM	Going off the old FR Adventures source book there are a number of Good and Neutral NPCs in these cities Hillsfar Good Glinda Scatterstar NG leader of the Mage Guild of Hillsfar Diane Halistinar NG Former cleric of Sune Barand Hithin CG leader of the Church of Lliira in Hillsfar Neutral Mordak Brekkiar CN Maathiirs apprentice Thurlock the Anagoue LN Mercenary Diviner Dounalis Guff CN Leader of the Church of Tempus in Hillsfar Mulmaster Good Naneetha Danchul CG Leader of the Church of Tymora in Mulmaster Neutral Thiondred Calambar LN one of Mulmasters Battlemasters Gulgath CN Plane walker Wizard Ghallas Khenstar CN Leader of the Church of Tempus in Mulmaster Dondabbar Kesker CN Leader of the Church of Waukeen in Mulmaster Ghondomeir Hazathal LN LEader of the Church of Azuth in Mulmaster Zhentil Keep (These are Pre Cyric butchering the place) Good Neutral Shanalar CN Grifin Riding Wizard who opposses the Zhentarim (Sounds like Knight of the North or Harper to me) Shonra Shalassalar Leader of the Zhentil Keep Thieves guild Baergus CN Merchant Ringult Hornhelm CN Merchant Ulgrym CN Zhentilar Officer (Melvaunt wasnt covered in FRA)
gss_000 06-18-06, 04:16 PM	Is it just me or can my 23rd level Fighter kill the entire Red Plumes army in a matter or minutes lol...I think listing them as war1 instead of ftr1 was rather dissappointing to me due to the fact I hate the Zhentarim and Bane. But anyway how could a War1 or Warriors for say, ever hope to fight or repel an attack from Ftr1 or Fighters even that the Zhents have. It seems the Red Plumes as they say are just bullies and not real time soldiers. I haven't read MoM yet, so I don't know the stats have changed, but in the FRCS there was something like 5000 Red Plumes to Zhentil Keep's 2000. It's about even if you pull in all the toops from the Citadel of the Raven, but that leaves both cities undefended. Does that work with the new material? If it does, then I wouldn't want to lay seige to a city with even odds that left two of my most important holds open for anyone else to come into. (Magic, arcane or divine, makes this analysis all wonky and it's hard on the limited info I have to really work how effective it would be.)
kaeso 06-18-06, 05:32 PM	I think I'll probably run it as the present-day Moonsea after all the events w/ Bane and Cyric, since that's the timeperiod that MoM book is written under. I'll still find ways to work some of those good and neutral characters into the game, though. Maybe some will be in hiding and the players will happen to run into them... thanks for the help Dargoth!
Dargoth 06-18-06, 06:23 PM	Id say the Zhents would definately have the advantage over Hillsfar on the BAttlefield. While both sides have similar numbers of Foot sloggers The Red Plumes dont have a Cleric or Wizard in every squad of warriors unlike the Zhents (See Eds spellfire novels) A dying Zhent has a higher chance of being successfully healed than a soldier from Hillsfar. Nor do the Red Plumes have access to an Arcane spell caster who can hit large numbers of troops with a single spell ie Sleep/Stinking Cloud/Fireball For these reasons if there was an even battle between the Zhentarim and the Red Plumes of Hillsfar Id put my money on the Zhents
BrianCritchley 06-18-06, 08:35 PM	Glinda Scatterstar NG leader of the Mage Guild of Hillsfar sadlyreplaced by a CE dopplerganger :weep:
D_Drader 06-19-06, 02:06 AM	I think that using a city as a base of operations in the Moonsea is an excellent idea, however, I wouldn't use any of the Big Four from MotM for that purpose. The city I would choose is Phlan, for a number of reasons. As has been mentioned earlier, the church of Tyr is pretty dominant here, which means that the people are interested in justice. The council of Ten is an elected body, which means that there's less of a chance that they're going to be corrupt, or allow blatant evil to exist right under their noses. What's more is that even though it's been decades since Pool of Radiance/Ruins of Adventure, the city is far from fully reclaimed. As of the 2E book on the Moonsea, there were only four thousand people living there in a city that was once the same size as Zhentil Keep, and Mulmaster. Even Zhentil Keep, which is itself rebuilding to its former glory, is still four times bigger. What this means is that there are still plenty of ruins within the city to explore at low levels and in between adventures in other parts of the Moonsea. It's the perfect location for a home base because the party will find resources, adventure, and some measure of protection should they anger the powers that be in one of the larger cities. Also, to verify the previous post, though it's running behind schedule due to circumstances beyond my control, the web enhancement will detail Phlan. You'll get a writeup on the city, which will be framed within a larger adventure that will include a sarrukh, the sorcerer's island, and an adventure hook that could serve as the basis for an entire campaign. Design work on this is underway right now, and will hopefully be handed off to the web team in about a week.
dunehunter 06-19-06, 08:05 AM	I think that most of the basic Zhent are more Lawful than Evil...but there probably are some small forgotten places that are not under Zhent control. Not to mention the area around Hillsfar
kaeso 06-19-06, 02:31 PM	Well I know that in the Age of Worms the players go from Diamond Lake (a small town based on mining, run by corruption, and somewhere on the edge of the eastern Moonsea-haven't picked an exact city to replace it with yet), and then the campaign heads South into a swamp-in this case, the Flooded Forest. Then, the campaign heads to "Free City," which I'm thinking will be Hillsfar (since in the campaign I know the adventure in the Free City is based around gladiatorial fights, which Hillsfar has). I think somewhere along the way I'm going to throw in a side adventure that will lead them to Phlan, get them attached, and give them something to really fight for. So far this is awesome, thanks guys! *spoilers* In the Age of Worms Campaign, there is a group called the Ebon Triad. They are trying to merge 3 gods from the core game: Hextor, Erythnul, and Vecna. Also, these cultists are "dangerous, deluded fools"- basically, their efforts are a load of crap. In a Faerun conversion, Mr. Boyd suggests that the gods be replaced by Bane, Bhall, and Myrkul- the Dead Three-, and that rather than the Ebon Triad being totally off base, they're actually "key players in a centuries-old divine plot initiated during the Age of Netheril by Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything." The combined power of the 3 gods is supposed to give Jergal the power to overcome Ao himself, and become the supreme overgod. My problem is that Bane is back, isn't he? Didn't he resurrect from the body of his son? So... how do I work this out? This, combined w/ the fact that it takes place in the Moonsea, and that Bane's followers are in power- would they be less than thrilled to find their god combined w/ two dead gods? Or, could it be a kind of combined Zhentarim-Ebon Triad effort? The Zhentarim might like to see an aspect of Bane as overgod, and the Ebon Triad is trying to get the Age of Worms (an age of decay) going. Would this work? I'm really not sure. This, combined w/ the fact that the conversions to Faerun confuse me a little (if I use the conversions, then the entire pre-history of the campaign changes, which makes my head hurt). I'm considering just going along w/ normal campaign history, switching in one more dead god to replace Bane, and having the Ebon Triad really be just "deluded fools." At the same time, I'm worried that if I do this I'm missing out on a really good chance to add more interesting events and fluff to the campaign. What do you guys recommend?
kaeso 06-20-06, 11:58 PM	ok, so I have been thinking. I still can't decide if I want to run my campaign in the Moonsea. If I don't run it in the Moonsea, it will be run in the Western Heartlands near Waterdeep. Here's my thinking so far: *note: I am a newer DM, which a group of 6 new players, so we have some leniency on things like switching regions that this 1st adventure is currently taking place in. pro-Moonsea: -I've already told them they were here, so the realism is maintained by keeping it here -the Moonsea has a new regional book, which makes the region more interesting for me and makes it easier for me to give more flavor to the campaign -the players would probably be introduced to the Night of the North, who are good and would make them members- I think being part of an underground organization would add a fun twist to the campaign -there are some places in the Moonsea where good people have control, and seeing those places would hopefully give the players more confidence in their efforts con-Moonsea: - most of the people in the Moonsea are very reclusive and distrustful of outsiders - one of my players roleplays a character who is a smartass, and being in a region of people who don't take **** from anyone is NOT good for his character- every time he tries to be a smartass, he's liable to get his ass kicked, or killed. I don't want to discourage his roleplaying. - adapting my campaign for the moonsea takes a little bit of work - the Moonsea book isn't amazing. It's useful for a campaign in the Moonsea, but it isn't amazing. - there is no book detailing all of Hillsfar, though there is for Waterdeep - I need to show the players that there is good in the Moonsea, giving them motivation. However, if I were to take my players to say, Phlan, I would have to take them outside of the normal campaign to get them there, possibly with a side adventure. It wouldn't be a base, becuase the campaign moves a bit, and also we are a group of high school students who will be seniors this year- since this is our last year together, we might not even get to 6th level or so when it would be convenient in the campaign setup to leave for a side adventure since we don't really play much (hopefully 5 or 6 times this summer, and probably 5 times in the school year (though i wish it was a lot more). pro-Waterdeep-ish area: - people are frontier-ish, like on the Moonsea, but they are also friendly rather than reclusive. This allows good roleplaying for my roleplayers (right now 3 of 6 are roleplayers, 1 is a loner/hack-n-slasher, another is a diehard hack-n-slasher, the other is apathetic). - when the players do go to Waterdeep, there's a regional book on it! 3 cheers for flavor! - people are more open to good-aligned gods, which is good since we have a paladin... and a cleric... and overall 4 or 5 of the PC's are good-aligned - it would be much easier for the characters to explain why they are there. Right now i'm trying to help and motivate my players to make backgrounds- hard when they can't figure out why the hell they would be in the Moonsea (they are from all kinds of places- Waterdeep, Silverymoon, the Great Rift...) con-Waterdeep-ish area: -the players won't be going to Waterdeep for quite a while -I would have to come back and say 'op, we're in the Western Heartlands, not the Moonsea. sorry! -no nifty organizations to join that are secretive and an integral part of the campaign I know I'm probably putting WAY too much thought into this, but... I just can't decide. So, what do you guys think? If you were in my position, which location would you choose? Thanks for your help-I need it :)
gss_000 06-21-06, 12:26 AM	con-Moonsea: - one of my players roleplays a character who is a smartass, and being in a region of people who don't take **** from anyone is NOT good for his character- every time he tries to be a smartass, he's liable to get his ass kicked, or killed. I don't want to discourage his roleplaying. I don't think this is a problem, really, or at least it is not specific to just the Moonsea. In any region if you have a bad attitude sooner or later it will get you into trouble. You can either describe the region to the players so they know at the beginning that these inds of actions are not a good idea, or you can let them find out the hard way. Although, I'd make it somewhat light at first so that you allow him to get the hint and the chance to change his actions. If he doesn't cahnge then you are justified to take harsher measures.
BrianCritchley 06-21-06, 02:08 AM	there is no regional sourcebook over the area (of waterdeep) actually there is. it's called Waterdeep: City of Splenders, and is in some respects one of WTOC's best regional books.
kaeso 06-21-06, 03:02 AM	sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant that there is no regional book about the areas around Waterdeep. Or am I mistaken? I was under the impression it was on only the city itself... do the descriptions in the book extend all the way to Daggerford? *opens the City of Splendors 2nd web enhancement I was dl'ing while posting* *edit* OOH so apparently the area IS in there! w00t w00t! awesome. I'll fix my post.