Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aLuK 11-14-03, 09:09 PM	Who is the most powerful dragon on Faerun?
Cunning Linguist 11-14-03, 09:17 PM	Daurgothoth - The Creeping Doom.
aLuK 11-14-03, 09:25 PM	Daurgothoth umm... where i can find his lair and why *the creeping doom*?
Jem Purplefeather 11-14-03, 09:33 PM	He is CR 50! Thats why he's called the Creeping Doom. He's an uber powerful black draco-lich Wizard 20/Archmage 5! Good luck trying to defeat him!
Jem Purplefeather 11-14-03, 09:34 PM	Oops. Double post!
aLuK 11-14-03, 09:41 PM	Thanks CL and JP.
Faraer 11-14-03, 09:53 PM	Y'see, this is partly why the original "Wyrms of the North" articles didn't have stats, to avoid people being able to say 'she's this level', 'he's the most powerful', 'we can beat this one'. 'Who's the mightiest' isn't known to (or considered by) folk of Faerūn, and not to us, since stats change between editions and, apart from the Sword Coast North, we just don't know about most dragons.
Mirtek 11-14-03, 10:13 PM	Originally posted by Jem Purplefeather He is CR 50! Although this CR is clearly wrong and shows nicely how CR breaks down at higher levels. The problem is that while he's technically CR 49 (wyrm + class level), he's no match for a 49th level party, not even for a 40th level party. I would even say an 30th level party could handle him. Mainly because he has been made before the release of the ELH and is thus lacking any epic abilties (which the epic PCs would have). Secondly, the class levels aren't really much of a power boost to him, since he already had good casting abilities before (as a sorcerer for being a dragon). The only thing which really helps him are the archmage abilities Last but not least his DCs are a joke for CR 49 (the only chance for a CR 49 being to fail against his spells would be the magical "natural 1") and he has no chance at all to break the SR common among CR 49 critters.
draegl0th 11-14-03, 10:33 PM	The stats REPRESENT the power and attributes of a creature, not the other way around. Just because the supreme being in FR (your DM) assign encounters of appropriate challenge rating to fight you, it does not make Creeping Doom any less threatening to the rest of the world. ;) Not everyone (save the BBEG maybe) have the privilege of a PC party. Unlike PCs, who face creatures with carefully-assigned CR, a true adventure group might be killed by a horde of beholders during their first expedition. Basically, it's like a spoiled kid, who yells insults while hiding safely behind their mighty parent. :angel:
Kain's avatar 11-14-03, 11:42 PM	Meh, I'd say either the Dire Dragon or Nexus over the Creeping Doom anyday. The Dire Dragon is an age cat. 28+ undead Shadow dragon, and Nexus is an age cat. 14+ Gold dragon with tons of extra levels and extra special powers granted by a god that exceed those of a Chosen.
Israfel666 11-15-03, 01:43 PM	I don't know about the Dire Dragon or Nexus, but the Magic of Faerun enhancement describes Phlogiston, a half-fire elemental great wyrm red dragon Drd20, one of the four keepers of a very special druid's grove. He could wipe the floor with the Creeping Doom... despite the technically lower CR (47 vs. 50), he casts as a 19th-level sorcerer/20th-level druid, which is FAR more effective than a 15th-level sorcerer/25th-level wizard like Daurgototh.
Jem Purplefeather 11-15-03, 04:16 PM	A Half-Fire Elemental/Half-Red Dragon keeping a Special Druid's grove save? Must be a rare one of his kind as Red Dragons don't usually good favors for humans let alone take 20 Druid Levels into their stats. Weird. Who are the other four guardians and who is this "Special" Druid of whom you speak? If I were a Half Fire Elemetal/Half-Red Dragon I'd take the Blackguard Prestige Class or a Wizard Class or even a Cleric Class and worship an evil Dragon God like Tiamat.
Gez 11-15-03, 04:19 PM	The Dire Dragon is the guardian of the Dragon Graveyard. He's a tough cookie. One of my FR characters heard him from (very) afar, dealing with a little group of dragon cultists that tried to approach him. That was quick. Don't know about the Nexus.
Drakken 11-15-03, 06:43 PM	As far as I know there are no official stats of the Dire Dragon, but what I know about him is that he's something nothing can really beat. Nexus is a very powerful gold dragon with huge magical powers. Then of course there is Inferno, a kickass crossbreed dragon. I've also read about a cr 66 prismatic great wyrm, but I only know his cr.
Ill 11-15-03, 08:28 PM	I think that the CotD have 'unsummoned' the Dire Dragon somehow, because officially, he's gone..
Cherrn 11-15-03, 09:18 PM	Originally posted by Jem Purplefeather A Half-Fire Elemental/Half-Red Dragon keeping a Special Druid's grove save? Must be a rare one of his kind as Red Dragons don't usually good favors for humans let alone take 20 Druid Levels into their stats. Weird. Who are the other four guardians and who is this "Special" Druid of whom you speak? If I were a Half Fire Elemetal/Half-Red Dragon I'd take the Blackguard Prestige Class or a Wizard Class or even a Cleric Class and worship an evil Dragon God like Tiamat. If I was a dragon like that I wouldn't worship any god. I would be a god :D Anyways it is true what Israfel said. I clearly remember it either being one of the wyrms of the north or in one my recent FR books. I remember reading about it recently... Now where is it *looks through all his books*
Israfel666 11-16-03, 03:36 AM	Magic of Faerun web enhancement, as I said.
the_heart 11-17-03, 05:33 AM	Originally posted by Drakken Then of course there is Inferno, a kickass crossbreed dragon. I've also read about a cr 66 prismatic great wyrm, but I only know his cr. CR 66 Prismatic dragon is the 'basic' great wyrm prismatic from the ELH. it's a little bit nasty.
the_heart 11-17-03, 05:33 AM	blegh!! >double post<sorry...
Drakken 11-17-03, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by the_heart CR 66 Prismatic dragon is the 'basic' great wyrm prismatic from the ELH. it's a little bit nasty. Hmm, is there a new edition for ELH then because in my book it says CR 47 for a basic prismatic great wyrm?
Sariel Rahab 11-17-03, 10:04 AM	In the Underdark book, Daurgothoth the Creeping Doom is just a NE male great wyrm black dracolich (p. 143). If I remember correctly from the article about him on the FR homepage, he, more or less, has the protection of mystra, at least in that the chosens will not attack him, for the research he does on magic. I belive it stated that he intend to create a race of super dragons; with all of the advantages, and none of the weaknesses. He's trying, and may have succeeded in giving himself more types of breathweapon and use breathweapon for spells, for instance. Mordenkainen's disjunction breath weapon sounds dangerous. If created with the epic level book, and the draconomicon, you can at least make him a tiny bit of a chalenge by level 49. He should have sorcerer levels though and not wizard levels, to even more correctly reflect his CR. But think of his spellcraft (which isn't that high, remarkably) checks for epic spellcasting? Ok, the DC wouldn't be that high, so craft epic spells without saves or SR, like epic magic missiles, and... um... well, epic magic missiles :)
Sariel Rahab 11-17-03, 10:11 AM	D'oh, double post. Oh well, while we are talking about powerfull dragons, why not also list all the known great wyrms? Palarandusk: Male gold great wyrm dragon sorcerer 9 Eldenser: Male great wyrm amethyst dragon Miirym: Female great wyrm silver dragon incorporeal sentinel (lowered CR) Klauth: Male great wyrm red dragon Iymrith: Female ancient blue dragon Sor 7 Claugiyliamatar: Female ancient green dragon Rog4/Drd4 Balagos: Male great wyrm red dragon Malaeragoth: Male very old sapphire dragon Wiz 5 Those are the most powerful from the FR homepage, though not as powerfull as the Dire Dragon, they can still bite (pun not really intended).
Jem Purplefeather 11-17-03, 01:54 PM	Don't forget the following: Valamaradace: LG female great wyrm gold dragon ????????; CR ?? Deszeldaryndun: LG male wyrm silver dragon; CR 23 Melordianix: LG female great wyrm song dragon Sorcerer 8; CR 34
Shylo Slick 11-18-03, 01:44 AM	Inferno should or would have been the greatest realms dragon of all time, during the 2e days. Inferno was the first living normal dragon to have surpassed the age category 12 barrier of the 2e days, in fact he had lived for at least well over 2000 years, when the normal max was 1200 yrs at the time. Inferno may well have been the first true Advanced Dragon on Toril before the 3e re-writing of some parts of the FR history. Inferno was also the realms foremost master of Radiant Energy, no mage/sage dead or alive knows more about Radiant Energy than Inferno, he is second to none as the realms leading authority in this field. Inferno also had the largest known dragons horde at the time, it was said his lair contained a couple of million gold pieces alone, and over 30 significant magical items, "what is a significant magical item?". Inferno's lair entrance was located on the north face of the highest peak in the High Forest. the realms foremost dragon hunting experts, the famed Hammerfist Company was last seen heading for Inferno's lair a few years back, they have never been heard from since, "I think they had the misfortune of actually finding him". Inferno never had any official stats, it was left up to individual DM's to decide his powers, which I believe is the best way to handle all mega-powerful npc's in any gaming world, that way every campaign is different, and the PC's have no way of knowing how to truly prepare for such beings ahead of time. A lot of DM's I know have Inferno running around their gaming world, even DM's playing a non-FR world, and most are using homebrewed history and stats posted on this site in the past and the Creature Catalog at Enworld to fully flush him out. I was truly disappointed that the new Draconomonicon and other new dragon type accessories decided not to even mention his existance any more, it seems somebody wants the memory of Inferno wiped from the realms altogether. :sad:
Shylo Slick 11-18-03, 02:33 AM	Here's a off the wall unique template for playing Inferno at any age category The following stats are in addition to his normal dragon stats, if any conflicts arise this chart overides the normal standard. Advanced Dragon. Red/Gold Crossbreed Species. Chaotic Nuetral Alignment, with good tendencies toward other draconics. Bonus +1 to Intelligence for every 4 age categories. Bonus +1 to Wisdom for every 4 age categories. Bonus +1 to all saves for every 4 age categories. Regenerates 1 point damage per age category, per round. Natural Keen Senses. Natural Ambidexterous. Infravision at normal sight range. Ultravision at normal sight range. X-Ray vision at 1 foot per age category. Mage-sight at 5 feet per age category. Immune to all Radiant Energy effects, including divine ones. Cast all Radiant Energy type effects at +1 level for every 4 age categories. Bonus spells of 2 wizard and 2 priest Radiant Energy type spells, for every new spell level achieved, these spells are to be considered innate and he chooses the spell at the time of casting. Full access to the Sun, Fire, Magic, and Healing domains. Bonus class levels as an Elemental Savant (Radiant Energy), Inferno gains one free level in this class for every 2 age categorys gained, any required prerequists are not needed. No Fear Aura "although common sense has led to many powerful opponents fleeing at the mere sight of him". Unaffected by the "Flight of Dragons" rage that effects the chromatic species, although he does easily get agitated during this time. Unique Breath Attack: Inferno's breath attack is a dark crimson beam of pure radiant energy heat, all resistances, protections, and immunities to this powerfull attack are only half as effective, including divine ones "e.t., -2 per die damage reduction would be lowered to -1 per die damage reduction, and immunity would be lowered to half damage automatically" DC bonus of +1 for every 4 age categories gained. The following Breath Attack stats are per age category, damage 4d4+4, area of effect 12 feet lenght, 4 feet width, "e.t., at age category 12 his breath would be 144 feet in lenght, and 48 feet in width, and do 48d4+48 damage, with a +3 bonus to the DC". Maximum Hit Points per Hit Die. Inferno dislikes all undead and shadowy type creatures, especially Draco-Liches, and has a hatred of the draconic diety Tiamat. He seems to genuinly care about, and would like to help all the chromatics species overcome what he percieves is the species shortcomings, especially it's inbreeding and uncontrollable rages, which he believes will be the doom of the species, if these bad traits are not corrected soon. Inferno also has a dry sense of humor, and a sharp wit, and loves playing the "battle of the wits" game with a good opponent. 4 bonus skill points at every age category gained, two points are distributed evenly among the following fields of knowledge (Draconic-Biology/ Chemistry/ Physics) and 2 points are distrubuted to the (Radiant Energy) field of study specifically. Inferno has a natural love for alchemy, and has an almost mad scientist type disregard for his own safety when working in a lab, he will the majority of any class level skill points gained to become a master at alchemy, and to enhance his radiant energy spell prowness and research techniques. Inferno appears to have the upper facial, spine, wings, and tail of a red dragon, and the body of a gold dragon, his scales are a dark fiery crimson that slowly morph to a golden blaze near the edges, and his eyes are a golden blaze that shine like the sun itself. He has the bite, and claws of a gold dragon, and the wings and tail attack of a red dragon. Inferno only gets the Radiant Energy type natural abilities, but he draws these from both the red and gold species, "e.t., he doesn't recieve the reds ability to locate gems because it is not a radiant energy ability". Inferno recieves the natural sorcery spell progression of the gold species. His first epic feat will be the Augmented Alchemy feat if he obtains that high a class level in your campaign, and he will use this feat to produce various potions of draconic dragons breath at double power, "especially his breath attack". DM's not familiar with Radiant Energy just consider any heat are light related effect to be radiant energy, Inferno's spells should be made up of all the fire/ flame/ heat/ light /illumination /sun type spells, including the prismatic types, and reverse forms of any cold/ frost/ chill/ darkness/ and shadowy type spells. Some good choices for any class levels given him would be a Master Alchemist type PrC, Mage of the Arcane Order, Arch Mage, Incancantrix, etc., etc..
Kain's avatar 11-18-03, 02:52 AM	Originally posted by Shylo Slick Inferno should or would have been the greatest realms dragon of all time, during the 2e days. Inferno was the first living normal dragon to have surpassed the age category 12 barrier of the 2e days, in fact he had lived for at least well over 2000 years, when the normal max was 1200 yrs at the time. Inferno may well have been the first true Advanced Dragon on Toril before the 3e re-writing of some parts of the FR history. Inferno was also the realms foremost master of Radiant Energy, no mage/sage dead or alive knows more about Radiant Energy than Inferno, he is second to none as the realms leading authority in this field. Inferno also had the largest known dragons horde at the time, it was said his lair contained a couple of million gold pieces alone, and over 30 significant magical items, "what is a significant magical item?". Inferno's lair entrance was located on the north face of the highest peak in the High Forest. the realms foremost dragon hunting experts, the famed Hammerfist Company was last seen heading for Inferno's lair a few years back, they have never been heard from since, "I think they had the misfortune of actually finding him". Inferno never had any official stats, it was left up to individual DM's to decide his powers, which I believe is the best way to handle all mega-powerful npc's in any gaming world, that way every campaign is different, and the PC's have no way of knowing how to truly prepare for such beings ahead of time. A lot of DM's I know have Inferno running around their gaming world, even DM's playing a non-FR world, and most are using homebrewed history and stats posted on this site in the past and the Creature Catalog at Enworld to fully flush him out. I was truly disappointed that the new Draconomonicon and other new dragon type accessories decided not to even mention his existance any more, it seems somebody wants the memory of Inferno wiped from the realms altogether. :sad: I don't know what you've been smoking, but you should probably stop. There is only 2 paragraphs ever written about the red dragon who calls himself Inferno, and almost none of what you said above is true. To directly quote the 2e Draconomicon: "A red dragon who calls himself Inferno is known to dwell in a cave high up the northern face of the mountain Angaroth. (This is the highest of the peaks in the midst of the High Forest.) Inferno is a great wyrm, reputed to be almost two millennia old. Rumors -- many of of which were probably generated by Inferno himself -- put the vaule of the dragon's hoard well into the millions of gold pieces. Others rumors claim that Inferno has spent centuries engaged in magical research, and knows more about fire-based magic than any mage in Faerūn. He is purported to have researched a large number of powerful and unique spells, most based on fire or other forms of radiant energy. Several adventuring companies -- including the well known Hammerfists -- have set off for Angaroth, but none have returned." That's it. All that was ever offically written about him. I don't know how you got the idea that he was the first in everything, the best in anything and nearly a god, but it doesn't appear to be true, and he probably doesn't exist anymore in 3e, as he hasn't been mentioned since. Edit: It would appear that he has been replaced by a ancient green wyrm by the name of Elaacrimalicros, who the FRCS says now resides in the tallest of the Star Mount's peaks in the High Forest.
Kossie 11-18-03, 05:43 AM	Has anyone done a 3e write up of Inferno of his actual stats at the height of his power?? I would loooove to see this but can't get my hands on it anywhere?!?!?
Kossie 11-18-03, 05:44 AM	Has anyone done a 3e write up of Inferno of his actual stats at the height of his power?? I would loooove to see this but can't get my hands on it anywhere?!?!?
Shylo Slick 11-19-03, 01:43 PM	Quote: "A red dragon who calls himself Inferno is known to dwell in a cave high up the northern face of the mountain Angaroth. (This is the highest of the peaks in the midst of the High Forest.) Inferno is a great wyrm, reputed to be almost two millennia old. Rumors -- many of of which were probably generated by Inferno himself -- put the vaule of the dragon's hoard well into the millions of gold pieces. Others rumors claim that Inferno has spent centuries engaged in magical research, and knows more about fire-based magic than any mage in Faerūn. He is purported to have researched a large number of powerful and unique spells, most based on fire or other forms of radiant energy. Several adventuring companies -- including the well known Hammerfists -- have set off for Angaroth, but none have returned." ======================================== ====== Reply: 1. A red dragon who calls himself Inferno is known to dwell in a cave high up the northern face of the mountain Angaroth. (This is the highest of the peaks in the midst of the High Forest.) Inferno is a great wyrm, "I believe the above line of text dispels all doubt about his official existence, age category, and location of his lair. "et., if you believe the original Draconomonican was an official product" 2. Inferno is a great wyrm, reputed to be almost two millennia old. "In the 2e days dragons normal maximum life expectancy was just over 1200 years, this made Inferno the oldest living known dragon at reputedly nearly 2000 years old, of course you have to believe that the Draconomonicon authors and TSR were not playing an april fools joke on the buyers of their product, and forgot to tell them so, of course they used the word REPUTED which means he actually might not be nearly 2000 years old, he might actually have been a billion years old for all we know" 3. Rumors -- many of of which were probably generated by Inferno himself -- put the vaule of the dragon's hoard well into the millions of gold pieces. (" Rumors = unproven but not neccessarily untrue") many but not all, were probalbly, but not neccessarily, started by Inferno, put the value of his horde well into the millions, ("well into the millions = two or more or even several millions if you think about the (well into) part of the sentence") if Inferno doesn't really exist then how come he 's being credited with spreading rumors about his horde. 4. Others rumors claim that Inferno has spent centuries engaged in magical research, and knows more about fire-based magic than any mage in Faerūn. He is purported to have researched a large number of powerful and unique spells, most based on fire or other forms of radiant energy. "Seems the author wanted us to think that Inferno could possibly be the realms reigning Master of Radiant Energy or he could be the highest classed fire type specialist wizard on the planet, or a Master Sage of Radient Energy studies, and possible all three apply to Inferno" 5. Several adventuring companies -- including the well known Hammerfists -- have set off for Angaroth, but none have returned. "Seems Inferno commands enough power to defeat even the realms famed dragon hunting experts and several other adventuring parties without a problem, at least nobody has ever lived to tell about surviving a hostile encounter with him, funny how the realms greatest dragon hunting experts believed in Inferno existence, as did several other adventuring parties before they went missing permanetly" ======================================== ====== Conclusion: Inferno exist, he's older than dirt, he has one hell of a bank account, and he's a world class pyromaniac. Kain's Avatar = closed minded person who can't phantom the idea of a legend really existing in a gaming world, seems kind of strange to me that a fellow RPG player can't even imagin the existence of such a beast, or is it that you don't want him to officially or even un-officially exist in somebody's campaign world, maybe it is you who needs to quit bogarting that thing and pass it on down the line. It seems those two little itty-bitty paragraphs have helped create a mega dragon super star in the realms named Inferno, while whole articules have been written about other dragons like the Creepin Doom have barely elevated interest in them. "INFERNO RULES! MAWH HA HA HA HA HA"
Kuje31 11-19-03, 02:22 PM	Draconomicon is a official product, since some of the other FR material make reference to it. I recall a passage in the Lands of Intrigue box set as one of them.
Gez 11-19-03, 06:27 PM	Originally posted by Sariel Rahab He's trying, and may have succeeded in giving himself more types of breathweapon and use breathweapon for spells, for instance. Mordenkainen's disjunction breath weapon sounds dangerous. If you look at Sword & Sorcery Studio's Creature Collection 2, you can look at the Slarecian Dragons inside. The slarecians are a dead race of powerful magicians and psionicists, that were so powerful the gods and their sires the titans allied to obliterate their civilization, out of fear. A number of slarecian mages tried to turn themselves into dragons, and those that succeeded became the Slarecian Dragons. They do have a disjunction breath weapon...
Trevelyn RedScale 11-19-03, 09:04 PM	Those od you familiar with ancient realms lore will remember this guy. You wanna try to pin down the most powerful dragon need look no farther than ASMODEUS. Was he not the dragon whos wings were ripped off(the dragon who did that could also stake quite a claim to the baddest title). Anyway a dragon who after being defeated could amass the power he has is at least deserving of discussion
Kain's avatar 11-19-03, 10:34 PM	I believe the above line of text dispels all doubt about his official existence, age category, and location of his lair. "et., if you believe the original Draconomonican was an official product No, it doesn't, as in 3e he doesn't appear to exist, and appears to have been replaced. Considering WotC doesn't even seem to acknowledge the 2e draconomicon anymore, this means it is likely they either replaced him or decided to get rid of him altogether. Either that, or the green dragon that took his place killed him, or he left for some reason, but it seems likely he would be mentioned at least if that were the case. In the 2e days dragons normal maximum life expectancy was just over 1200 years, this made Inferno the oldest living known dragon at reputedly nearly 2000 years old, of course you have to believe that the Draconomonicon authors and TSR were not playing an april fools joke on the buyers of their product, and forgot to tell them so, of course they used the word REPUTED which means he actually might not be nearly 2000 years old, he might actually have been a billion years old for all we know Ummm, no. That's all wrong. Did you even read the book you got this dragon from? It says the rules for dragon aging in it, and it's no where near 1200 years. Has no age limit, but generally speaking around 4400 years or so dragons are too old to even move around much. Not only that, but the same book has a Gold dragon (King Lareth) that is 2000 years old too, so he wouldn't be the first or oldest. Not only that, but the Dire Dragon is over 4,000 years old, and Palarandusk is over 5,000 years old, so he isn't the first or oldest. (" Rumors = unproven but not neccessarily untrue") many but not all, were probalbly, but not neccessarily, started by Inferno, put the value of his horde well into the millions, ("well into the millions = two or more or even several millions if you think about the (well into) part of the sentence") if Inferno doesn't really exist then how come he 's being credited with spreading rumors about his horde. Many dragons nowadays have several million gold in their hoards, that's nothing special. The last sentence is the same argument as him not existing at all anymore, i.e. how many rumors of his hoard have you heard in 3e? None. Seems the author wanted us to think that Inferno could possibly be the realms reigning Master of Radiant Energy or he could be the highest classed fire type specialist wizard on the planet, or a Master Sage of Radient Energy studies, and possible all three apply to Inferno No, it would seem the author wanted to make it seem like he knew a lot about fire magic, being a red dragon and all. All the dragons in wyrms of the north have several "powerful and unique" spells, that's nothing special. It says he knew a lot about fire magic and spells with other forms of radiant (read: heat) energy magic, which is typical for a red dragon who likes magic. It says he "may" know more about fire magic than any other mage in Faerūn, nothing about "master of all radiant energy" just fire magic, and even then, it's a maybe. Seems Inferno commands enough power to defeat even the realms famed dragon hunting experts and several other adventuring parties without a problem, at least nobody has ever lived to tell about surviving a hostile encounter with him, funny how the realms greatest dragon hunting experts believed in Inferno existence, as did several other adventuring parties before they went missing permanetly Again, this is assuming he still exists in 3e. The hammerfists weren't some uber "dragon hunting experts" the were mid level adventurers that were famous. Again, he doesn't appear to exist anymore. Conclusion: Inferno exist, he's older than dirt, he has one hell of a bank account, and he's a world class pyromaniac. Real conclusion: Inferno doesn't appear to exist in 3e anymore, and if he did, he is either dead somehow or gone so that no trace of him remains, and all his lair and possesions haven't been found. He only exists if you want him too in your campaign, so if anything anyone makes up is counted as "most powerful dragon on toril" then I'll make an age cat 50 Prismatic dragon with 100 class levels, yeah, that's the most powerful. :rolleyes: Kain's Avatar = closed minded person who can't phantom the idea of a legend really existing in a gaming world, seems kind of strange to me that a fellow RPG player can't even imagin the existence of such a beast, or is it that you don't want him to officially or even un-officially exist in somebody's campaign world, maybe it is you who needs to quit bogarting that thing and pass it on down the line. You = close minded person that can't allow anyone to have an offical campaigne without your uber god-like ninja dragon of doom in it, and ignores all evidence that seems to prove that he no longer exists or is alive. I have no problem with him existing in your game, but that doesn't mean he's offically uber insane god-like chosen of ninjaland best dragon ever as you imply. One more thing it's "fathom." ;) It seems those two little itty-bitty paragraphs have helped create a mega dragon super star in the realms named Inferno, while whole articules have been written about other dragons like the Creepin Doom have barely elevated interest in them There are like a whole 3 people on this board with your Inferno disease, but there are 300 who think the Creeping Doom is the most powerful dragon they've ever heard of, and another 300 more that think some other dragon is. Need a step ladder to get down off that horse? Anyway, back on topic.... It seems to me that there is a trend of not using ELH-style advanced age cat. dragons in the FR setting, as all the really old dragons I've seen offically written up have no age cat. beyond Great Wyrm, so maybe the dragon with the most class levels or special powers is gonna be the most poweful offically? I would imagine that puts the Creeping Doom at the top, unless stats come out for the Dire Dragon and he has a ton of class levels. Although, Raulothim looks pretty tough and is very diverse. Palarandusk, who is super-ancient and has the highest spellcasting levels of any dragon I can think of, and would be the canidate for the most epic feats and powers related to spellcasting, would also be up there.
Green Elven Vampire 11-19-03, 10:45 PM	Inferno is really nothing special in the shadow of Klauth!!!!! But there's another bad a$$ white dragon off the coast of the sea of moving ice I believe that lives on a glacial island and destroys anything and anyone in its path. I forget the dragons name.... something like "old white death" or the like. But first choice goes to Klauth, or that wicked Green dragon in the high forest... forget that name too. :(
Kain's avatar 11-19-03, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by Green Elven Vampire Inferno is really nothing special in the shadow of Klauth!!!!! But there's another bad a$$ white dragon off the coast of the sea of moving ice I believe that lives on a glacial island and destroys anything and anyone in its path. I forget the dragons name.... something like "old white death" or the like. But first choice goes to Klauth, or that wicked Green dragon in the high forest... forget that name too. :( Arauthator would be "Old White Death" he's in Wyrms of the North on this site. The green dragon you're thinking of is probably Elaacrimalicros.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-19-03, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by Trevelyn RedScale Those od you familiar with ancient realms lore will remember this guy. You wanna try to pin down the most powerful dragon need look no farther than ASMODEUS. Was he not the dragon whos wings were ripped off(the dragon who did that could also stake quite a claim to the baddest title). Anyway a dragon who after being defeated could amass the power he has is at least deserving of discussion *mutters random assorted uncomplimentary things about the 2e Guide to Hell* .... And I wouldn't call an Archfiend a Dragon in that sense, regardless of what his true form may or may not be. In any case he's powerful and mysterious, but leave it at that.
Kain's avatar 11-19-03, 11:00 PM	Reading Palarandusk's article in Wyrms of the North in more detail, I'd say he gets the "Most Ancient" award by far. It says he hunted wyverns along the sword coast before Netheril was founded! That makes him at least 5,600 years old or so. :eek:
Shylo Slick 11-20-03, 03:46 AM	All the ages of dragons mentioned are from newer 3e products, in the 2e days the oldest dragons are King Lareth, and Inferno each about 2000 years old, and you had a special great wyrm blue in the old empires region that was barely 4000 yrs old, but he only got that old because he was the last worshipper of his diety, and had divine help extending his life until he could find other dragons to worship his minor draconic god of magic, and even then he was a decrepid shriveled up barely alive pitiful looking thing that could only sustain itself by constantly consuming Ion stones for nurishment, this dragon was also a 18th level wizard and a 10th level high priest in 2e. How many living non-diety dragons in 2e do remember having 28 class levels, if you compared this dragon to the average great wyrm of the 2e era his personal power would far outshine even King Lareth. If you take this blue and converted him to 3e based on how much more powerful he was than King Lareth he would probalbly stomp dragons like Klauth with ease. Oh and I believe this dragon also during the ToT got some of Tiamat's essence, and was able with the help of Set to go undetected by Tiamat when she went on her consuming all the dragons that got her essence rampage. I believe Set wanted this dragon as a trump card encase his shaky alliance with Tiamat went sour. They are many unique and very powerful 2e dragons that the 3e writers ignored in all the new dragon based accessories, that doesn't mean they stopped existing, if every thing that is not written in an official 3e product doesn't exist anymore, then 80% of the realms just vanished. P.S. any writer can come in and make a new npc that's badder than anything else was in the past, comparing Klauth to Nexus would be like comparing a new 100th level epic wizard I created to a 2e Elminister, it seems they are not converting a lot of the old 2e lengendary npc creatures based on how much more powerful they where to everything else at the time. Apples vs. Oranges / anybody remember when Shimmergloom was credited with being the greatest shadow dragon of all time in the realms before RAS destroyed him in a pitiful fight in a novel, they didn't even have the decency to add Shimmergloom's tribe of DERRO'S he had or his SHADE allies in any of the fights.
Mirtek 11-20-03, 08:21 AM	Originally posted by Shylo Slick Conclusion: Inferno exist, he's older than dirt, he has one hell of a bank account, and he's a world class pyromaniac. Kain's Avatar = closed minded person who can't phantom the idea of a legend really existing in a gaming world, seems kind of strange to me that a fellow RPG player can't even imagin the existence of such a beast, or is it that you don't want him to officially or even un-officially exist in somebody's campaign world, maybe it is you who needs to quit bogarting that thing and pass it on down the line. It seems those two little itty-bitty paragraphs have helped create a mega dragon super star in the realms named Inferno, while whole articules have been written about other dragons like the Creepin Doom have barely elevated interest in them. According to those two little itty-bitty paragraphs he's a nasty powerfull dragon. Where do you get the information he was the first to exceed 1,200 years (which was quite possible in 2e for all dragons, who just needed more and more difficult saves each year(or was it century) the grew older than 1,200 years to fend off their death) Originally posted by Trevelyn RedScale Those od you familiar with ancient realms lore will remember this guy. You wanna try to pin down the most powerful dragon need look no farther than ASMODEUS. Was he not the dragon whos wings were ripped off(the dragon who did that could also stake quite a claim to the baddest title). Anyway a dragon who after being defeated could amass the power he has is at least deserving of discussion No, he was a serpent (which could arguably be classified as some sort of dragon) who didn't had wings. Only his part has wings and he carried Asmo during their time as partners.
Shylo Slick 11-20-03, 12:45 PM	Quote: "According to those two little itty-bitty paragraphs he's a nasty powerfull dragon. Where do you get the information he was the first to exceed 1,200 years (which was quite possible in 2e for all dragons, who just needed more and more difficult saves each year(or was it century) the grew older than 1,200 years to fend off their death)" Once a dragon reached his 1200th year (age category 12) his life span was decided by the roll of a dice, that became more and more difficult with the passing years, unless the dragon rolled endless 20's on the d20 (default automatic success) on his dice roll he never would have seen his second milleneum of existance. The blue that licved to be 4000+ years in the Old Empires region was a unique circumstance with a little divine help or he never ever would have lived to be that old, not too many people realize that there was a 2e dragon with 28 class levels running around the realms back then, I wonder how his power would convert over to 3e. I wonder if anybody would convert Klauth to 2e based on the 2e normal rule standard for dragons and then compare him to dragons like Lareth, Inferno, Nexus, or the Blue from above. Remember in the 2e days dragons like Nexus could destroy a dozen Great Wyrms at the same time, their power was unique and unmatched by any normal wyrms in existance, these dragons where in a class of their own.
Faraer 11-20-03, 12:58 PM	FOR1 Draconomicon was written by the late Nigel Findley, a respected freelancer who nevertheless had little knowledge of the Realms and made little effort to tie his book into the setting except in the most cursory ways. It's one of the handful of Realms books I ignore, along with Netheril: Empire of Magic, FR14 The Great Glacier, and FA2 Nightmare Keep. So I think this fetishization of 'Inferno' (who doesn't even match Realms draconic nomenclature) is ridiculous. Technically, 'Inferno' probably exists in the official Realms, but it would be daft for the design team to bother with him when there are so many existing dragons created by people who understand the Realms (such as Ed Greenwood) and others yet unrevealed. I think some of you should reread my post on the first page of this thread. The 'who's the greatest' question is deliberately designed to be indeterminate.
Drakken 11-20-03, 01:50 PM	Just look at the prismatic and force dragons stats. Those things are the most powerful I've seen with official stats, could eat beings like Larloch for breakfast. Just imagine a unique prismatic great wyrm.
Kuje31 11-20-03, 01:55 PM	Originally posted by Faraer FOR1 Draconomicon was written by the late Nigel Findley, a respected freelancer who nevertheless had little knowledge of the Realms and made little effort to tie his book into the setting except in the most cursory ways. It's one of the handful of Realms books I ignore, along with Netheril: Empire of Magic, FR14 The Great Glacier, and FA2 Nightmare Keep. You might ignore it, but TSR did not. It was part of official FR material, because some of the later sourcebooks made reference to it. Again Land's of Intrigue has a spot where it says "See the Draconimicon for info."
Kain's avatar 11-20-03, 09:28 PM	All the ages of dragons mentioned are from newer 3e products Actually, ALL of them are from 2e products, the Wyrms of the North ones are from Ed Greenwood himself in Dragon Magazine in the 2e days, and as I recall, the idea of the Dire Dragon existed before the 2e Draconomicon was ever written.