The New Elves are NOT related to the fey foundation. [Archive] - Wizards Community

The New Elves are NOT related to the fey foundation. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Skalliska
09-05-03, 03:38 AM Hello
This post comes after I've had a very strong and heated argument with someone who was of the opinion that elves are connected to the fey and the fairy. This is simply not so. They were specifically speaking of the Forgotten Realms setting but were generalizing to the entire D&D multiverse. In response I am forming this foundation to combat the elven threat and to explain my position on the matter.

A. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting it specifically says that elves came to the realms from off plane and that the fey are native. This makes the fey closer to humans than they ever are to elves. In a very real way in FR the fey are Romans with pointy ears.
B. I am currently working on running an historically based Celtic game set in the year 200 and have done research on the fairy myths. Fey and fairy are terms that refer to earth spirits and spirits of place. The D&D elf is a far cry from such spirits as they not only are unbound to any place in their world but force nature to reshape itself around them. Humans at least can be taught to respect the ways of the land.
C. The Tolkien elf is in part a good approximation of Fey but the D&D elf is a far cry from a Tolkien elf. Unfortunately during the Victorian period many of the fey races where robed of their identities. Originally, for example, kobolds where small naked or shabbily dressed men who did house chores for people with the expectation that some food or offering would be made. They would start their lives with the finest of clothes and since nothing could ever compare they simply wore those until they fell off and any attempt to give them new ones would be considered an insult. Tolkien at least gave the elves back some of their dignity but the D&D Elf has a long way to go before he can enter the gentle court.
D. One of the most outstanding features of the fey in general mythology and especially Celtic and Norse myth is the mind of the fey. The fairy mind is not a human mind. It is alien and while it seems chaotic is not truly so. The fey often see themselves as the enforcers of good manners. They will punish everything from being rude to being slovenly, usually with some form of practical joke but their punishments can be quite debilitating even deadly. Elves show none of this and are most of the time simply humans with pointy ears.
E. Unlike elves who are a separate race living out of human society(Evermeet ect.) the fey are integral parts of society normally in mythology. The example of the kobald that I put up earlier comes to mind. Fairies are known of because they interact with people on a daily basis. They may not and usually are not seen by people directly but still they live amongst people; which is all the more evidence that the D&D elf is by no means fey.
So in short the classic D&D elf in general and the FR elf in particular both show no real aspects of being even remotely related to the fairy. If you need a final example I give you the classic Elven tree house in which an oak or other old-growth tree has been magically modified to suit the purposes of its Elven inhabitants. Such modification is unnatural clearly. Most fey would have a better time with clear-cutters than with changing a tree with what amounts to be genetic engineering. Many animals cut down trees, but none have the audacity to do what Elves often do in changing them. I would like to invite anyone who has any opinion on this to please speak out as I look forward to discussing this further. Also I am thinking of starting a yahoo group or something to work towards furthering the goal of pulling the Elven taint out of the fey’s reputation.
Charles Phipps
09-05-03, 04:19 AM 1. There are native elves to Toril according to Evermeet. The current inhabitants came

2. Fey come from Fairy which ironically is the homeplane of the elves in Toril

At least according to Manual of the Planes and that's odd for Toril

3. I'm a professional fairy scholar in addition to being a fantasy novelist

The interpretation of fairy as nature spirits is one viable one yes but it is only one viable one. The interpretations for their origins have included descent (and being) the Celtic people's gods, the Tuatha De Daanan (a great influence on D&D elves) which were just a race "greater" than humans but not gods themselves, the Christian re-write that they are angels from heaven cast down for not serving God or Lucifer, and a simple "have always been"

In D&D the elves are certainly simply closer to the animistic interpretation of the fey that is prevalent in Russia and admittadly some Pre-Christian European cultures (Greece notably) rather than being part of it

But a great many fairy-legends have absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with what you describe. The Fairy-courts of Ailil and his wife Maeve were mere approximations of human courts but they valued their privacy and human beings who visited the realm of fairy were often punished horribly.

Unable to leave their horse or turn to dust, hundreds of years having past, having their eyes put out.

And to refute your example of historical accuracy, you are using Kobold for a common Dwarf, House Spirit (Domanovi), Gnome, Leprechaun, and Brownie legend as well as Kobolds.

Do all six of these races have some obsession with human houses and doing chores for man? If so D&D players will want to know why the bloody heck do they want to make human clothes so badly!

Kobolds have also been associated with Jewish anti-semiticism since everybody and their brother was apparently cursed at Christ's crucifixtion....not to mention mining and sabotage (and Kobold is interchangable with Gremlin in some places!)

D&D is just one specific additional legend about Elves and its interpretation is as valid as any other.

D&D elves are a merger of the Tuatha De Daanan and sidhe (with a dash of Prydain), Tolkien's elves (with a dash of Moorcock's chaos), and a generations of playing them differently than any of the above intended them
Gez
09-05-03, 06:56 AM Elves are as much related to fey as gnomes, goblins, kobolds, hobgoblins, as well as hags and ogres. Oh, and kelpie too.

The way I see faeries, if elves were related to them, they would sleep and dream more than humans. But they don't sleep, they trance, and they don't dream, they relives old memories instead.
Thrudjelmer
09-05-03, 07:42 AM Elves are related to fey... they are distant cousins. Very distant.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-05-03, 12:07 PM One could also point out that were they actually Fey, they would be listed as type (Fey) rather than type (humanoid), but that would be too blunt now wouldn't it.

The elves of D&D, and especially those of FR don't resemble to any degree the Fae of legend, be it the whimsical little people and fairies of the forest, or the hidden and malevolent (unseelie...) beings of the stories of Arthur Machen ['The Great God Pan' and 'The Black Stone' for example].

The elves of D&D are something unique and distinct to themselves, far too often arrogant and socially rigid and unchanging (yet with that CG alignment often *boggle*) to resemble much anything of the Fae of legend. And with respects to FR, just because the name Faerie is tossed around in a book or two, doesn't mean its either the same as the 3e ethereal demiplane of Faerie (actual Fey) or that the elves are in any way Fey creatures. They're an interloper race from another sphere. Humans and Kua-Toa technically have more of a connection to Toril than do the elves, despite the elves ascertations of being one with nature or beings 'of magic' rather than using magic. *rolls eyes*
Plectrum
09-06-03, 11:07 AM its simple elves (sub type humanoid) come from farie
Most fey (Sub type fey) come from farie
farie dragons (sub type dragon) come from farie
some blink dogs (sub type animal) come from farie

not all things from farie have the sub type of fey
FineasBoggs
09-06-03, 11:14 AM http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/archfiends.gif
Tebryn14
09-07-03, 12:23 AM While not all fey currently on Toril were born on the plane of faerie, their lineages came from there. The way I look at it, the only way to get to the Plane of Faerie from toril is to be a fey, or to plane shift to arvandor, probably a bad idea if you aren't an elf or faerie (and I doubt most elves would do that out of respect for their gods), and then plane shift to faerie. The elves migrated to toril from Arvandor.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-07-03, 02:31 AM Why go to Arvandor in order to planeshift to Faerie? (Unless you're using the messed up 3e FR specific cosmology?). Arvandor is simply the first layer of Arborea, so I don't see how it as an outer plane has any special connection to either the demi/pseudo plane of Faerie, or to the Fey who have typically had a connection of sorts to Ysgard more so than any of the outer planes (or Pendemonium if you're looking for the unseelie court).
Charles Phipps
09-07-03, 03:56 AM Post Vecna...

There is no Ysgard or Arborea in this dimension

Twere wiped out by The crazed Lich of Greyhawk
Tebryn14
09-07-03, 11:37 AM Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Why go to Arvandor in order to planeshift to Faerie? (Unless you're using the messed up 3e FR specific cosmology?). Arvandor is simply the first layer of Arborea, so I don't see how it as an outer plane has any special connection to either the demi/pseudo plane of Faerie, or to the Fey who have typically had a connection of sorts to Ysgard more so than any of the outer planes (or Pendemonium if you're looking for the unseelie court).

I am using a modified version of the new cosmology.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skalliska 09-05-03, 03:38 AM	Hello This post comes after I've had a very strong and heated argument with someone who was of the opinion that elves are connected to the fey and the fairy. This is simply not so. They were specifically speaking of the Forgotten Realms setting but were generalizing to the entire D&D multiverse. In response I am forming this foundation to combat the elven threat and to explain my position on the matter. A. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting it specifically says that elves came to the realms from off plane and that the fey are native. This makes the fey closer to humans than they ever are to elves. In a very real way in FR the fey are Romans with pointy ears. B. I am currently working on running an historically based Celtic game set in the year 200 and have done research on the fairy myths. Fey and fairy are terms that refer to earth spirits and spirits of place. The D&D elf is a far cry from such spirits as they not only are unbound to any place in their world but force nature to reshape itself around them. Humans at least can be taught to respect the ways of the land. C. The Tolkien elf is in part a good approximation of Fey but the D&D elf is a far cry from a Tolkien elf. Unfortunately during the Victorian period many of the fey races where robed of their identities. Originally, for example, kobolds where small naked or shabbily dressed men who did house chores for people with the expectation that some food or offering would be made. They would start their lives with the finest of clothes and since nothing could ever compare they simply wore those until they fell off and any attempt to give them new ones would be considered an insult. Tolkien at least gave the elves back some of their dignity but the D&D Elf has a long way to go before he can enter the gentle court. D. One of the most outstanding features of the fey in general mythology and especially Celtic and Norse myth is the mind of the fey. The fairy mind is not a human mind. It is alien and while it seems chaotic is not truly so. The fey often see themselves as the enforcers of good manners. They will punish everything from being rude to being slovenly, usually with some form of practical joke but their punishments can be quite debilitating even deadly. Elves show none of this and are most of the time simply humans with pointy ears. E. Unlike elves who are a separate race living out of human society(Evermeet ect.) the fey are integral parts of society normally in mythology. The example of the kobald that I put up earlier comes to mind. Fairies are known of because they interact with people on a daily basis. They may not and usually are not seen by people directly but still they live amongst people; which is all the more evidence that the D&D elf is by no means fey. So in short the classic D&D elf in general and the FR elf in particular both show no real aspects of being even remotely related to the fairy. If you need a final example I give you the classic Elven tree house in which an oak or other old-growth tree has been magically modified to suit the purposes of its Elven inhabitants. Such modification is unnatural clearly. Most fey would have a better time with clear-cutters than with changing a tree with what amounts to be genetic engineering. Many animals cut down trees, but none have the audacity to do what Elves often do in changing them. I would like to invite anyone who has any opinion on this to please speak out as I look forward to discussing this further. Also I am thinking of starting a yahoo group or something to work towards furthering the goal of pulling the Elven taint out of the fey’s reputation.
Charles Phipps 09-05-03, 04:19 AM	1. There are native elves to Toril according to Evermeet. The current inhabitants came 2. Fey come from Fairy which ironically is the homeplane of the elves in Toril At least according to Manual of the Planes and that's odd for Toril 3. I'm a professional fairy scholar in addition to being a fantasy novelist The interpretation of fairy as nature spirits is one viable one yes but it is only one viable one. The interpretations for their origins have included descent (and being) the Celtic people's gods, the Tuatha De Daanan (a great influence on D&D elves) which were just a race "greater" than humans but not gods themselves, the Christian re-write that they are angels from heaven cast down for not serving God or Lucifer, and a simple "have always been" In D&D the elves are certainly simply closer to the animistic interpretation of the fey that is prevalent in Russia and admittadly some Pre-Christian European cultures (Greece notably) rather than being part of it But a great many fairy-legends have absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with what you describe. The Fairy-courts of Ailil and his wife Maeve were mere approximations of human courts but they valued their privacy and human beings who visited the realm of fairy were often punished horribly. Unable to leave their horse or turn to dust, hundreds of years having past, having their eyes put out. And to refute your example of historical accuracy, you are using Kobold for a common Dwarf, House Spirit (Domanovi), Gnome, Leprechaun, and Brownie legend as well as Kobolds. Do all six of these races have some obsession with human houses and doing chores for man? If so D&D players will want to know why the bloody heck do they want to make human clothes so badly! Kobolds have also been associated with Jewish anti-semiticism since everybody and their brother was apparently cursed at Christ's crucifixtion....not to mention mining and sabotage (and Kobold is interchangable with Gremlin in some places!) D&D is just one specific additional legend about Elves and its interpretation is as valid as any other. D&D elves are a merger of the Tuatha De Daanan and sidhe (with a dash of Prydain), Tolkien's elves (with a dash of Moorcock's chaos), and a generations of playing them differently than any of the above intended them
Gez 09-05-03, 06:56 AM	Elves are as much related to fey as gnomes, goblins, kobolds, hobgoblins, as well as hags and ogres. Oh, and kelpie too. The way I see faeries, if elves were related to them, they would sleep and dream more than humans. But they don't sleep, they trance, and they don't dream, they relives old memories instead.
Thrudjelmer 09-05-03, 07:42 AM	Elves are related to fey... they are distant cousins. Very distant.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-05-03, 12:07 PM	One could also point out that were they actually Fey, they would be listed as type (Fey) rather than type (humanoid), but that would be too blunt now wouldn't it. The elves of D&D, and especially those of FR don't resemble to any degree the Fae of legend, be it the whimsical little people and fairies of the forest, or the hidden and malevolent (unseelie...) beings of the stories of Arthur Machen ['The Great God Pan' and 'The Black Stone' for example]. The elves of D&D are something unique and distinct to themselves, far too often arrogant and socially rigid and unchanging (yet with that CG alignment often boggle) to resemble much anything of the Fae of legend. And with respects to FR, just because the name Faerie is tossed around in a book or two, doesn't mean its either the same as the 3e ethereal demiplane of Faerie (actual Fey) or that the elves are in any way Fey creatures. They're an interloper race from another sphere. Humans and Kua-Toa technically have more of a connection to Toril than do the elves, despite the elves ascertations of being one with nature or beings 'of magic' rather than using magic. rolls eyes
Plectrum 09-06-03, 11:07 AM	its simple elves (sub type humanoid) come from farie Most fey (Sub type fey) come from farie farie dragons (sub type dragon) come from farie some blink dogs (sub type animal) come from farie not all things from farie have the sub type of fey
FineasBoggs 09-06-03, 11:14 AM	http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/archfiends.gif
Tebryn14 09-07-03, 12:23 AM	While not all fey currently on Toril were born on the plane of faerie, their lineages came from there. The way I look at it, the only way to get to the Plane of Faerie from toril is to be a fey, or to plane shift to arvandor, probably a bad idea if you aren't an elf or faerie (and I doubt most elves would do that out of respect for their gods), and then plane shift to faerie. The elves migrated to toril from Arvandor.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-07-03, 02:31 AM	Why go to Arvandor in order to planeshift to Faerie? (Unless you're using the messed up 3e FR specific cosmology?). Arvandor is simply the first layer of Arborea, so I don't see how it as an outer plane has any special connection to either the demi/pseudo plane of Faerie, or to the Fey who have typically had a connection of sorts to Ysgard more so than any of the outer planes (or Pendemonium if you're looking for the unseelie court).
Charles Phipps 09-07-03, 03:56 AM	Post Vecna... There is no Ysgard or Arborea in this dimension Twere wiped out by The crazed Lich of Greyhawk
Tebryn14 09-07-03, 11:37 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Why go to Arvandor in order to planeshift to Faerie? (Unless you're using the messed up 3e FR specific cosmology?). Arvandor is simply the first layer of Arborea, so I don't see how it as an outer plane has any special connection to either the demi/pseudo plane of Faerie, or to the Fey who have typically had a connection of sorts to Ysgard more so than any of the outer planes (or Pendemonium if you're looking for the unseelie court). I am using a modified version of the new cosmology.