Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yamo 09-23-03, 05:12 PM	I'm running through some ideas for FR adventures and plotlines, and I keep on encountering the same problem: The sheer number of powerful good guy NPCs really limits what I can do and how I can do it. Let's say I want an army of orcs to attack Waterdeep and possibly pillage the city. Won't work because there's at least two "epic level" wizards that live there. One of them could probably turn back a "mere" orc hoard, and two definitely could. So I have to escalate the power of the baddies. Maybe instead of an army of orcs, it's an army of dragons or demons. Suddenly, it's not the same story anymore, and the non-superpowered PCs will probably be hopelessly overmatched by any opposition they encounter. Everything seems to inevitably come back to cosmically-powerful NPCs duking it out. In order to threaten a significant portion of the world, I can't use "just" an army of orcs or men. Because of the sheer number of superhero defenders in the canon material, I have to use more and more powerful bad guys, upping the ante until the whole thing just becomes ridiculous. Because of the uberNPCs factor, so many plotlines that would work just fine in a setting like Greyhawk or Dragonlance are just unusable without jacking up the power level of the antagonists to the point where my PCs don't stand a chance. Everything I throw at my PCs either has to be weak and unimportant in a larger sense or out of their league because it would attract the attention of Mystra's Chosen or other godlike beings and then the PCs would have no starring role in fighting it (they might be lackeys or helpers to the "big guns", but that's it, realistically). There's no middle ground. It's like Lord of the Rings except there's no need for the Fellowship because Gandalf is powerful enough by himself to just teleport over to Mordor, tear Sauron a new one and be home before lunch. Very frustrating.
Jagermeister 09-23-03, 05:20 PM	Welcome to the Realms. Toss out the Uber-NPCs, or have them use other folk to achieve their ends...like the Circle of Eight does. I don't like the Uber-NPCs of the Realms, the PCs should be center stage in the spotlight, not Khelben or Elminster... Either that or try playing Greyhawk, which doesn't seem to have this problem. ;)
Kuje31 09-23-03, 05:41 PM	Well why should Khelben even get involved? Maybe he's busy or he's out on the planes or he just doesn't care and leaves it to the adventurers of the city to deal with. As you said he wouldn't get involved with a orc horde, he is a busy person, he has apprentices he has to help teach, he runs the Moonstars, etc. So just have the major NPC's in the back stage or not there at all.....
Cunning Linguist 09-23-03, 06:02 PM	Bah, toss a Uber NPC evil Half fiend giant in into the Orc horde.. let him have some backup with Epic NPC drow wizards, and some Beholder allies, that will show Blackstaff whos the boss.
Reefy 09-23-03, 08:18 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Well why should Khelben even get involved? Maybe he's busy or he's out on the planes or he just doesn't care and leaves it to the adventurers of the city to deal with. As you said he wouldn't get involved with a orc horde, he is a busy person, he has apprentices he has to help teach, he runs the Moonstars, etc. So just have the major NPC's in the back stage or not there at all..... Exactly, use them when you need them. Remember that they can't be everywhere at once and solve every little thing. Also, there are plenty of bad guys with power themselves, Fzoul and Manshoon of the Zhentarim, Szass Tam and the other Red Wizards, the Shades to name but a few. The trick is to make the PCs the stars, there's a bit on that in the FRCS if you have it. Also, there's a sidebar called 'Concerns of the Mighty' on about page 84 (off the top of my head), that may also provide some insight.
Kuje31 09-23-03, 08:29 PM	Originally posted by Reefy Exactly, use them when you need them. Remember that they can't be everywhere at once and solve every little thing. Also, there are plenty of bad guys with power themselves, Fzoul and Manshoon of the Zhentarim, Szass Tam and the other Red Wizards, the Shades to name but a few. The trick is to make the PCs the stars, there's a bit on that in the FRCS if you have it. Also, there's a sidebar called 'Concerns of the Mighty' on about page 84 (off the top of my head), that may also provide some insight. Yup. I don't know why every one has this problem with the NPC's that are established in FR. There are hundreds of established NPC's in FR, but people don't have to use any of them unless they want to. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used established NPC's and I have been DM'in FR for at least 6 years.
Reefy 09-23-03, 08:35 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Yup. I don't know why every one has this problem with the NPC's that are established in FR. There are hundreds of established NPC's in FR, but people don't have to use any of them unless they want to. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used established NPC's and I have been DM'in FR for at least 6 years. Yeah, and they tend to focus on the Chosen just because they're well known. There are far more evil organisations anyway but the Chosen are just more famous I guess. In my current campaign, I have used Qilué Veladorn a couple of times but the players don't actually know it's her, which is a bonus. She's not been there to save them, more as a plot device and she'll be there to reveal more things when the time comes. I mean, what gives players the right to think El will come along to save them, or even help them?
Ivy 09-23-03, 09:19 PM	My advice is either: A) Think smaller. Instead of a horde of orcs threatening Waterdeep, how about a gang of orcs harassing merchants on the Long Road? Its a problem that doesn't even cause a blip on Khelben's radar, but the to the merchant whose shipments aren't reaching their destination, it's a big deal. B) If you do go the more "epic" route, such as with an invasion of Waterdeep, even if the powerful NPCs do get involved, its not going to be over in a day. Maybe the call goes out for adventurers to assist the effort by completing small missions such as: secure Berun's Hill, or help defend Goldenfields, or guard the north end of the Zundbridge (to toss out a few landmarks in the vicinity ;)). Maybe the PCs get involved with the Red Sashes or Force Gray. I think with a bit of pondering you can find many ways to incorporate the high-level NPCs without them stealing the show. Or, C) As mentioned above, find ways to write the NPCs out of the story.
Kuje31 09-23-03, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Reefy Yeah, and they tend to focus on the Chosen just because they're well known. There are far more evil organisations anyway but the Chosen are just more famous I guess. In my current campaign, I have used Qilué Veladorn a couple of times but the players don't actually know it's her, which is a bonus. She's not been there to save them, more as a plot device and she'll be there to reveal more things when the time comes. I mean, what gives players the right to think El will come along to save them, or even help them? Again, yup. El is a cranky old censored. He really does not like people coming to his tower and bothering him. Same with Khelben and others. Or use them as plot devices and then they are never heard from again.....
Herr Doktor 09-24-03, 01:49 AM	In my own Incursion campaign I had to decide how to get the uber NPCS out of the way. In the end... I didn't! They are very much involved in fighting off the Incursion. I've decided that the Lich Queen did her homework and so she particularly targeted the regions that are home to the most powerful of NPCs as the areas to send her most proficient and powerful troops, and lots of them! Thus, the Chosen and most of the other powerful NPCs that the Lich Queen was concerned about have been so far entirely overwhelmed with the assassins and horrors she has sent at them. Sure it's not likely she'll be able to actually do much harm to any of them at first, but the idea is to keep them busy while her army conquers the lands they cannot manage to protect and gains a firm hold. The Chosen will still be busy holding back the vast horde on Toril when the PCs finally confront the Lich Queen herself. My only concern now is the aftermath. What will become of those non-planeshifting githyanki stranded on Toril? We'll see... :D
Herr Doktor 09-24-03, 02:16 AM	Originally posted by Yamo I'm running through some ideas for FR adventures and plotlines, and I keep on encountering the same problem: The sheer number of powerful good guy NPCs really limits what I can do and how I can do it. Let's say I want an army of orcs to attack Waterdeep and possibly pillage the city. Won't work because there's at least two "epic level" wizards that live there. One of them could probably turn back a "mere" orc hoard, and two definitely could. So I have to escalate the power of the baddies. Maybe instead of an army of orcs, it's an army of dragons or demons. Suddenly, it's not the same story anymore, and the non-superpowered PCs will probably be hopelessly overmatched by any opposition they encounter. Everything seems to inevitably come back to cosmically-powerful NPCs duking it out. In order to threaten a significant portion of the world, I can't use "just" an army of orcs or men. Because of the sheer number of superhero defenders in the canon material, I have to use more and more powerful bad guys, upping the ante until the whole thing just becomes ridiculous. Because of the uberNPCs factor, so many plotlines that would work just fine in a setting like Greyhawk or Dragonlance are just unusable without jacking up the power level of the antagonists to the point where my PCs don't stand a chance. Everything I throw at my PCs either has to be weak and unimportant in a larger sense or out of their league because it would attract the attention of Mystra's Chosen or other godlike beings and then the PCs would have no starring role in fighting it (they might be lackeys or helpers to the "big guns", but that's it, realistically). There's no middle ground. It's like Lord of the Rings except there's no need for the Fellowship because Gandalf is powerful enough by himself to just teleport over to Mordor, tear Sauron a new one and be home before lunch. Very frustrating. What level PCs are going to take on an entire orc horde themself anyway? Firstly... if a horde of orcs were to be ambitious enough to strike at Waterdeep, a gigantic city of with many capable fighters they'd of course bring along a few allies that'd occupy the more potent NPCS. ------- For example: King Obould Many-Arrows has invaded the Silver Marches, destroying the pact and causing utter chaos across the savage fronteir. Life becomes very hard for non-orcs in the North. Obould's campaign does not end until his death (his troops have trouble digging out the dwarven armies and sacking Silverymoon what with Alustriel and all) but eventually through perseverance and by sheer numbers (2000 very well trained orcs [Brb3 and up] and their allies from the Spine of the World). Upon the death of King Obould his eight sons divy up the lands they know hold and their fathers legacy goes on. Some of his particularly ambitious sons ally with Gerti Orelsdottr and her tribe of Frost Giants. This massive force pours out of the North causing quite a bit of Anxiety in places like Neverwinter and Waterdeep. In preperation these cities arm themselves in anyway possible, calling on allies and mercenary adventurers to boost their standing troops. A terrible battle errupts, and Khelben is occupied with the white dragons and more powerful spellcasters among the frost giant tribe. Who is to dispatch and do battle with the other forces? Those hired adventurers! The PCs (5th level would do well enought) lined up with many others like themselves form the frontlines of Waterdeeps defense. Fighting their way through row after row of savage porcine warriors the PCs make their way to one of Obould's Sons (CR 7 or so) and his standard bearer. With the fall of the one of the orc warlords the hordes morale is worsened and it is obvious the PCs have struck a grave blow against the forces of the orc horde. Actually, this horde could be sent against any level of PC easily enough. Low-level PCs would serve as scouts or messangers between larger forces. Mid-level would involve more fighting. High-level PCs would do battle with the frost giants and some of the powerful white wyrms. ------- All in all I'd say there are countless ways to keep the "uber" powerful NPCs out of the way while the course of events unfold. You don't have to remove them from your campaign or anything of that sort, there are plenty of ways of dealing with them besides elimination.
Zanan 09-24-03, 03:29 AM	Vendui! Just make sure that you keep the whole large place that is Faerun in mind. What looks on that map pretty close together spans an area of some 9 million square miles and thus, NPC as given in the FRCS are not that plentyful as it seems. Of course, you could well end up in a region which has a dozen or so within a few miles radius, just like Waterdeep or Calimport, but that is not a rule. As has been said, NPCs do not need to stick to one place either. The Simbul, said to be Elminster's lover is as often in Agloarond as she is in Shadowdale. The old Red Hat may have 100 other things at his hand, namely the Shades and their Anauroch friends called the Phaerimm (which is actually a nice place to send all the high level chaps to). NPCs are there to offer valuable help in cases of need and it's up to you alone whether they appear in your campaign or not. A Drow group of mine raided the Tower of Ashaba a wee while back, out to assassinate it's owner and his family. And despite the presence of that Bard Chosen (who kept to her farm that night) they accomplished their goal without much problem (for they were cunning enough not to awake the whole tower folk). Elminster wasn't in Shadowdale at the time and it's actually unlikely that he might have noted anything either.
The_Sleeper 09-25-03, 03:49 PM	Or, if u are feeling really ambitious, se one ore more Uber-Evil NPCs and their minions to threaten the city. :smirk: :b:
ElGrecoETAC 09-25-03, 11:50 PM	Consider this. It would take tens of thousands of Orcs and allies to take Waterdeep even if Khelben and Laeral were away. You're talking about an incredibly well defended city with an elite army, crack aerial troops, a wizard and clerical corps, and defenses that have been improved over and over throughout centuries. Now add to this that all these Orcs have to be marshalled together by one powerful, central figure. Let's say for giggles that it's someone simple and available, like Obould Many-Arrows. He now has to march them a few hundred miles southwest (from the traditional great Orcish spawning grounds in the North) to Waterdeep. Obould has to keep all these thousands of Orcs, and their competing warlords, under his iron fist. Like most light armies, he could travel 10-20 miles a day--less if he figures out a way to get siege engines and stuff like that. He doesn't however, have tons of supplies, because Orcs aren't exactly an agricultural society. This will slow down their trip... they need to raid and steal in order to eat. And you know what they say about Orcish patience. This sort of campaign is ENORMOUS in scope. It's simply NOT a "well guys, the Orcs are coming to Waterdeep." Almost a MILLION AND A HALF people answer to this city state, with one-hundred and fifty thousand living within the metropolis itself!!! The amount of Orcs, Goblins, Giants, etc., needed to accomplish what you are asking are much greater than a threat to Waterdeep: they are a threat to the entire North! This is the sort of idea that should keep the PCs occupied for a year of real-time gaming... the build up of the hordes, the initial small actions, the PCs' attempts to warn everyone and do away with the evil leaders, the losing battle to slow down the horde, and finally the climactic battle under the walls of Waterdeep. I think that if you want to do this, you should do a lot of research on the composition of this army, its motives, and its leadership. Give plausible reasons on why the Chosen would not interfere with such a catastrophic event--a competing off-world crisis, perhaps? Most important... what is the PCs' role in all of this. Are they going to be doing "commando" style missions for the Lords' Alliance? Will they be scouts? Generals? Soldiers on the line?
Zanan 09-26-03, 04:50 AM	Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC Consider this. It would take tens of thousands of Orcs and allies to take Waterdeep even if Khelben and Laeral were away. Ah well, maybe not. Spin the tale of CotSQ a bit further and let Irae have her Great Revenance spell develope along the lines of that Epic Horrible Army of the Dead thing. They may sneak into the city via the various entrances to Undermountain or Skullport and come up during the night. The Epic lass visits some dark alley and cast that spells, slaying hundreds (if not more) people instantly and turns them into ravaging undead within a few minutes. A split second latter she uses a Word of Recall and is off to her abode again, preparing for another nightly visit to Waterdeep in a couple of weeks time. Of course, she may try this out in some god-forsaken place before targetting larger places ... LINK (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20021018a)
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-26-03, 06:02 AM	Sneaky trick #1. Did you ever notice that the super uber folks are just about all in the Heartlands? So who defends Heliogabalus, Leuthilspar, Ankhappur or Shussel from the orc horde? Well, that would be your PC's. ST#2 Where was say, Khelben in the year of wild magic? Oh yea, down defending Everseka.....so who is there to save Waterdeep from the orc horde? And what was Elminster doing durning that time...ect. There is plenty of middle ground. It's easy enuff to have hidden stuff going on, the Chosen can't see everything. One thing about being well know is you can hide from them. Say bulid a room with 2 foot thick lead walls or such. The easy way is to just ignore the super powers. Pc's are eating lunch...guy runs by 'Yikes orc horde comming'...Pc's jump up and look....smart mouth pc says 'oh why bother..the super guys will take care of it'.....orcs attack...smash through the gates and start to pillage city....smart mouth pc looks at you and says 'where is Khelben and the rest? Why are they not stopping the horde?'...You answer'You don't know..oh a dozen orcs bust down the tavern door' BT
ElGrecoETAC 09-26-03, 08:28 AM	Originally posted by Zanan Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC Consider this. It would take tens of thousands of Orcs and allies to take Waterdeep even if Khelben and Laeral were away. Ah well, maybe not. Spin the tale of CotSQ a bit further and let Irae have her Great Revenance spell develope along the lines of that Epic Horrible Army of the Dead thing. They may sneak into the city via the various entrances to Undermountain or Skullport and come up during the night. The Epic lass visits some dark alley and cast that spells, slaying hundreds (if not more) people instantly and turns them into ravaging undead within a few minutes. A split second latter she uses a Word of Recall and is off to her abode again, preparing for another nightly visit to Waterdeep in a couple of weeks time. Of course, she may try this out in some god-forsaken place before targetting larger places ... LINK (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20021018a) That's a great idea. :) I was just addressing one of the original poster's own ideas, of not using Epic stuff... just a bunch of Orcs as he said. But you just inspired me (since I haven't checked out CotSQ) to go ahead and look up the module and adopt the cast into one of those "Army of Darkness"-eque adventures I have been meaning to throw my friends against. :cool:
devinmdp 09-26-03, 03:37 PM	It would also seem to me that on some level the NPCs of FR have to be aware of the fact that people get more powerful by adventuring. There's just no way around this, as much as we like to keep the concept of levels under the sheets. So, it would behoove uber good NPCs to try to work in lower-level persons to help solve problems in order to breed the next-generation of uber-good guys. Otherwise, when El and the other eventually pass away, who will look after things. So, while El could probably wave his hand and WOOSH away the orcs, maybe he would rather the PCs handle it and prove their mettle and gain power. Devin
Kuje31 09-26-03, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by devinmdp It would also seem to me that on some level the NPCs of FR have to be aware of the fact that people get more powerful by adventuring. There's just no way around this, as much as we like to keep the concept of levels under the sheets. So, it would behoove uber good NPCs to try to work in lower-level persons to help solve problems in order to breed the next-generation of uber-good guys. Otherwise, when El and the other eventually pass away, who will look after things. So, while El could probably wave his hand and WOOSH away the orcs, maybe he would rather the PCs handle it and prove their mettle and gain power. Devin Excatly, there have been hints and passages scattered over 20 years of realmslore that basically also says what you just said. :) El knows sooner or later he will die and some one will rise up and fill the "position" he holds as a balance against good and evil.
ENHenry 09-26-03, 04:00 PM	Think Men in Black - Elminster is Tommy Lee Jones, and the PC's are Will Smith. He's not training partners - he's training replacements. :)