Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yamo 07-12-03, 08:44 PM	Reading Unapproachable East and something occured to me. FR used to have a big reputation during the TSR days for utterly incompetent villiany. Now we have the Zhents dominating the entire Moonsea region, the Shades poised to strike, the drow retaking parts of the surface, the orc hoards preparing to descend from their mountain lairs and...the Red Wizards opening a magic Wal-Mart chain. Uh. Now according to the official story, the "mighty" Red Wizards have attempted to invade the same three countries (Aglarond, Rasheman and Mulhorand) a grand total of over THIRTY TIMES, never succeeding once! Basically, they're little punks. And now they've essentially given up and become helpful merchants...EVIL helpful merchants. :rolleyes: Shouldn't the FR continuity guys throw the Red Wizards a bone and let them make some real territoial gains? Something that would make a proper villian proud? Let the kill the Simbul and annex Aglarond. Let the drive off the Witches and take Rasheman. Let them lead a successful incursion into their ancestral homeland of Mulhorand. Give these guys a real VICTORY! Something to convince the Realms at large that they're a true world-threatening menace and a respectable opponent for a brave band of heroes. Nobody wants to brawl with the clerk at the local potion shop. Am I right or am I right?
Thrask the Gnoll 07-12-03, 08:49 PM	I think the Red Wizards have already taken a step up. After all, there's nothing more purely evil than a corporate CEO! Just watch, Szass will be wearing a suit and talking on a cellphone by the DR 1373 first fiscal quarter!!
Poiniard 07-12-03, 09:00 PM	The Simbul protects Aglarond, and the Witches guard Rashemen. But I've always wondered what prevents the Red Wizards from sending their armies westward and crushing Thesk. There doesn't even seem to be a line of forts along the border. Come on!
Elereth_Berantor 07-12-03, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by Yamo ...the Red Wizards opening a magic Wal-Mart chain. That made me :rofl: Anyway, this "magic Wal-Mart chain" is actually another one of their world domination plans... Keep reading UA and you'll see the genius behind it. :) The image of Szass Tam in a suit is pretty funny image. :D
Psionycx 07-12-03, 09:31 PM	I'm sure Ken Lay would have made a great Zulkir. Any reasonable attempt at consistency requires that you admit when you've boxed yourself into a corner. Mulhorand is just too powerful for even Thay to take. And their power is waxing as they become an empire again. Aglarond and Rasheman have too much magic to fall easily. The Zhents had the advantage of being the best organized evil power in the northern Moonsea region, especially after Cyric's inept priesthood lost the Keep back to Xvim/Bane. That's why they managed to do so well. The Shades and Drow have invaded areas that were barely inhabited until they showed up. Hence, easy conquests. Only Thay was hedged in by powerful magical nations, hence a new strategy. Those magical Wal-Marts are the best staging points for magical mayhem anyone ever thought of.
Druxus Rhym 07-12-03, 09:58 PM	Yeah, the way I see it the Red Wizards are just unordgainized and in the worst place ever if they were in the Western Heartlands they would DOMINATE!!!
Astanphaeus 07-12-03, 11:29 PM	Originally posted by Yamo Am I right or am I right? No. (well, maybe a little). ;) I've been a fan of Thay ever since the very first supplement came out. Szass Tam was my preferred BBEG back then, even though at the time he was a little known 3rd tier NPC. In the game I ran, he did two things... 1. secured and consolidated his power over Thay. 2. increased Thayan export to get his spies all over the Inner Sea. Once the spies were in place, he went to work. The whole theme of his plan was to increase corruption from within... everywhere. He had all sorts of nasty tricks for that, too. Before anyone noticed that events in locations A, B, C, D, E, and F were all related... it was going to be too late. My thought about this was, wizards are traditionally a subtle breed. Szass Tam is a wizard. He's also a lich. That means he has a lot of time on his hands. He's also brilliant and, as liches go, pretty level-headed. So, he has the intellectual capacity to make these elaborate plots, and the time, power, and patience to cultivate them into fruition. Why not do it? What was with all the overt wars, which were, when you get right down to it, an instant gratification sort of thing? That's a "young man's game". Szass, at 250, should've been over that a long time ago. So that's how I ran him. Now, we look at how the situation has developed in the gameworld since that time. Szass has done two things... 1. secured and consolidated his power over Thay. 2. increased Thayan mercantile power. Hmmmm. Looks awfully familiar to me. I can guess what's next. ;) Yes, Thay has been incompetent... but at least part of that is due to the fact that all the Zulkirs were pulling it in different directions, and there was a pronounced schism in their ranks (researchers on one side and imperialists on the other). That appears to be no longer the case. (didn't they bring some of the coastal free cities under their control anyway?) Thay also didn't have a strong leadership presence. That has also changed. On an OOC level, people seem to dig my old friend Szass. Arguably, he's a 1st tier NPC now, a major villain. His popularity will probably lead to a higher prominance in the material. He's likely a reason why Unapproachable East was developed and released. Frankly, it looks to this old timer like Tam is slowly and quietly doing for the Red Wizards what Drizzt did for the Drow (hey, even his appeal is sneaky and lich-like! ;)) Based on the above, my guess is Thay will soon lose that (hard earned) reputation for incompetence. I'm willing to bet that something huge is going to go down with Thay that will significantly shift the balance of power in the Inner Sea, and our boy Tam will be behind it. All that aside, there are two huge setting inconsistencies about Thay that have always bugged me. 1. Tam's obssession with Rasheman. I wrote this off as a lingering effect of his humanity -- an old hang-up involving his father -- and promptly had him evolve beyond it. The aforementioned game essentially began when Tam stopped and said to himself, "What the hell am I doing?!" 2. The point Poiniard brought up about Thay never conquering Thesk. I don't see a good reason for it. "It's not worth the trouble" doesn't seem adequate to me. My solution was: Thay already controls Thesk covertly, and it's the best kept secret of the Inner Sea (it was the brainchild of the Zulkir of Enchantment, who was Szass' only real significant rival in my campaign). The first inconsistency has been resolved, I think. Who knows what will happen with the second. But don't worry. Thay's day will come. Oh yes. :smirk: MUA... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ha... ha... heh. *ahem*... Sorry. -- A.
ElGrecoETAC 07-13-03, 06:07 AM	Seriously, Thay is probably one of the scariest places on the surface of Faerun to live in (judging by the looks of Thayan Knights, propencity for monstrous armies, slavery, etc.), but to me it seems like Szass Tam was resting for a couple of centuries, and when he awakes his Number 2 henchman gives him a greeting like this: "Welcome back, your unholy evilness. While you were gone, I took the liberty of diverting funds from spell research and monster army raising, and capitalizing on real estate closures throughout a variety of Western Heartlands/Moonsea states. I'm pleased to announce that ThayCorp now has an annual revenue of over 13.4 BILLION gold pieces!!! Furthermore, by shifting away from dominating technically weaker nations with powerful patrons, we have cut down costs by over 34%. Also, our focusing on low-cost, low-durations magical items ensures we can increase our Red Wizard worker capacity by lowering our standards to meet our those of our product line!" "Wait, wait. What the heck, was all that? And did you say 13.4 BILLION gold pieces?!?!?!? :rolleyes:
inci 07-13-03, 06:58 AM	never ever forget the church of kossuth when talking about Thay! should they ever decide to support the red wizards ... anyway, military actions arent always the smartest - as already mentioned, what is more effective than a trading network in whole fearun ? especially when its up for magic items, where you never know what powers they really have.
Derulbaskul 07-13-03, 08:42 AM	Actually, the Red Wizard strategy has been shown to be quite effective in the real world... think of the British takeover of India as an example. What began as a commercial enterprise became the Raj.
Masakado 07-13-03, 08:44 AM	Originally posted by Yamo And now they've essentially given up and become helpful merchants...EVIL helpful merchants. :rolleyes: Am I right or am I right? I don't think that you see the devil in the details, Yamo. The enclaves are fronts. They are not genuine expressions of good commerce. Everything from smuggling to intelligence gathering occurs at enclaves. And where does the revenue go from these magical Wal-Marts? Probably back to Thaymount to finance & equip the Spirit Naga lead, Gnoll army that may show up at your doorstep one day. Most likely, through the portal in the basement of your friendly, convenient, local Thay-Mart. (Open 24 hrs. Closed on Lauzoril's birthday.) Funny how that by allowing the Thayans to build an enclave near your city, you could be bankrolling your own invasion, or someone else's. At the very least, you're helping to support the economy of one of the most tyrannical regimes on the face of Toril. It's pure genius.
Rogue Shadows 07-13-03, 09:31 AM	I agree with Astanphaeus. Mr. Tam is presenting a strong bastion for the Thayans to rally behind...because they want him to do all the work before they stab him in the back. His downfall, ultimately, will probably be in the way he thinks, however. Szass Tam, as an immortal creature, thinks in terms of years, decades, centuries. His ultimate downfall with be his inability to think in terms of months, weeks, days, hours. He will likely set up...and already has set up...huge, massive, and grand plans that will take decades to see fruitation. But, destroying even a minor aspect of those plans will set him back by several years. By 'minor' I mean a small outpost or something, not 'knocking over a conviniately places jug of water', of course, although eventually, if Tam lives long enough, even doing that could set him back. We're talking on the order of many mellenia, of course. I'm actually more interested in the drow, right now. As stated, they are begining to reclaim lands on the surface, specificly Cormanthor. But doesn't Lolth's directives dictate that this should only be done after the Underdark has been taken control of? My bet is that the ilythiiri are preparing for an Underdark campaign (again), but also establishing footholds in the surface world for later. Really, it depends on the DM. Do what ye wish. Technicly, if a DM wanted, to, they could just have Tam form an alliance with Rashemen and other nearby nations, while having the drow giving up Lolth, and so forth and so on.
Savras 07-13-03, 09:40 AM	The drow on the surface do not worship Lolth. Mostly they worship Vharaun (sp). Savras
Klyden 07-13-03, 02:22 PM	Pretty common tactic actually...if you can't beat them with force, beat them with money. Economics is truly a game of nations trying to one up each other for power, wealth, and ultimately, victory!.
Thrask the Gnoll 07-13-03, 04:01 PM	Red Wizards = Microsoft Szass Tam = Bill Gates :OMG!
Garnet Hardeon 07-13-03, 05:18 PM	I'm glad Thay is acting with an evil application of economics. What they're doing is making themselves indispensable---and that's a definite liability for whoever's trading with them. I think the defeats with Aglarond and Rashemen have finally taught Thay a lesson: can't have direct control/power over your neighbors? Then just nudge them behind the scenes to doing what you want, and let them think it was THEIR OWN idea. What Thay's actually doing in the with Magical Wal-Mart chains is consolidating positions. They're not setting up shop, they're setting up forts! I would be surprised if before long, Thay basically launched attacks from their enclaves and wrought magical mayhem. Oooh, I'm giddy at the thought. :)
Masakado 07-13-03, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by Garnet Hardeon What Thay's actually doing in the with Magical Wal-Mart chains is consolidating positions. They're not setting up shop, they're setting up forts! And the nations that face invasion are helping to pay for those forts with their continued proprietorship. Delicious irony.
Rogue Shadows 07-13-03, 07:59 PM	The kind that the Thayans love. If they're smart, they will do nothing other then subtly manipulate events. You don't need to be King to rule a nation. The Thayans don't even technicly need lords on thier sides. A few "Well informed" town criers, a general or two, maybe a lord somewhere, and they can pull entire nations into thier fold without having to re-draw any maps. If they're smart, they'll manipulate events to drive thier enemies to war against one another. You know: Aglarond against Mulhorand, Mulhorand against Murghom, Murghom against the tribes of the Endless Wastes, the tribes against Rashemen, Rashemen against Narfell, Narfell agaisnt the Great Dale, the Great Dale against Thesk, and Thesk against Aglarond. They would be in the exact middle of that war-circle, a dangerous but VERY lucritive possition. Once that's done, they can pick up the peices, displaying themselves as "saviors" by going in and helping out the war-torn nations after the war, helping repair and everything...and leaving all those nations deeply in debt to the Thayans. After that, the entire northeastern portion of the inner sea is thiers for the taking. But they'd have to be patient and subtle. A few well-placed assassinations should do it, but only after at least a decade of slowly manipulating events to thier favor.
Poiniard 07-13-03, 08:44 PM	I also think the Red Wizards were dealt a severe blow by the return of Bane, something no one could have foreseen. The Red Wizards had been making inroads into the Moonsea since the 1350's, in particular the diplomatic union between Thay and Mulmaster. Presumably, that alliance was to be a major jumping-off point for Thayan activities against the other Moonsea cities. The return of Bane upset the whole balance of power in Mulmaster, and probably ruined twenty years of careful planning.
Baron Phylos 07-14-03, 02:31 AM	Originally posted by Thrask the Gnoll Red Wizards = Microsoft Szass Tam = Bill Gates :OMG! *shudders* Blue Scrolls of Death...
zombie_man2k4 07-14-03, 04:20 AM	You know that the RW have something major planned for when they finally have a Thayan enclave in every city. Until then, they're kinda like the underpants gnomes from South Park Step 1 Open a magic item shop in every city on the face of Aber-toril. Step 2 Step 3 World Domination!!!!!!
Savras 07-14-03, 04:36 AM	Originally posted by Rogue Shadows If they're smart, they'll manipulate events to drive thier enemies to war against one another. You know: Aglarond against Mulhorand, Mulhorand against Murghom, Murghom against the tribes of the Endless Wastes, the tribes against Rashemen, Rashemen against Narfell, Narfell agaisnt the Great Dale, the Great Dale against Thesk, and Thesk against Aglarond. One problem- Aglarong, Mulhorand and Rasheman have no enclaves, and refuse to allow any. Agalrond and Mulhorand have no border and are quite far from each other. Murghom is a satelite state of Mulhorand, and with the letter becoming an empire again they will soon be a county in the Mulhorandi Empire. Narfel is not united, the Great Dale has enough trouble and will not start a war on anyone, and Thest would attack Aglarond only if they want to die. Won't work, sorry. Savras
Masakado 07-14-03, 09:24 AM	Originally posted by Poiniard I also think the Red Wizards were dealt a severe blow by the return of Bane, something no one could have foreseen. The Red Wizards had been making inroads into the Moonsea since the 1350's, in particular the diplomatic union between Thay and Mulmaster. Presumably, that alliance was to be a major jumping-off point for Thayan activities against the other Moonsea cities. The return of Bane upset the whole balance of power in Mulmaster, and probably ruined twenty years of careful planning. I agree, the politics are rather ticklish these days. The rise of orthodox Bane worship in Zhentil Keep has heralded the end of the "kinder, gentler" Zhentarim (read subtle) and Fzoul has remade the Black Network into a more miltaristic organization. With himself as Lord Tyrant, naturally. Fzoul is well aware of the threat that the Red Wizards can pose to his authority & relations between the Moonsea region & Thay, most likely, will cool off dramatically as time goes by. I'd love to see some literary treatment of the current events concering the marriage between the First Princess of Thay & the High Blade. They rival Semmemon & Ashemmi as the Realm's premier star-crossed lovers. If there is any love in their marriage to begin with.
theorcrist 07-14-03, 10:08 AM	perhaps the worst of all evils is the one that remains unseen until it is too late. the organization can seep into beuracracies of faerun and be runing the entire continent with out resistance except for a few socially aware adventurers who are looked upon as outcasts any way. Must i refer to our current politics as possibility of this happening? lolol Think on that one friend...
tauster 07-14-03, 10:36 AM	i agree with theorcrist: is there a better start and safer way to "world domination" than having a base of operations in almost every important city across faerun? add to this the fact that a magocracy like the thayvian should have the resources to link their enclaves with a decent net of gates - and you have the all the prerequisites for a devastating blitzkrieg...
Savras 07-14-03, 10:46 AM	Real, large Thayan Enclaves are few- 23. "Other large cities may have a single shop staffed by a habdful of thayan wizards or are visited at least monthly by traveling wizards with goods to sell." LoD, pg 65 (the sidebar). So not all what you seem to think, eh? Anyway, the only blitzkrig that will involve Red Wizrds would be attack of one on another; they are about as united as Chesseta; Szass Tam has *not* consolidated his power completely, so I really don't think Thay will rise soon. Savras
Rogue Shadows 07-14-03, 11:07 AM	One problem- Aglarond, Mulhorand and Rasheman have no enclaves, and refuse to allow any. Agalrond and Mulhorand have no border and are quite far from each other. Murghom is a satelite state of Mulhorand, and with the letter becoming an empire again they will soon be a county in the Mulhorandi Empire. Narfel is not united, the Great Dale has enough trouble and will not start a war on anyone, and Thesk would attack Aglarond only if they want to die. Won't work, sorry. Savras Oh, you'd be surprised. 1) Rashemen is in fact a large issue in this. Fortunately enclaves are not needed, just bribes, words, and assassinations. The deal is the same for Aglarond and Mulhorand 2) Agalrond and Mulhorand don't share a land border, true, but they border each other across the Alamber Sea. This war would focus on piracy, not legions. Also the distance it's actually all that great between the Aglorandi and Mulhorandi coasts, only about 240 miles at the closes points. Aglarond would launch it's fleet from Escalant, Laothkund, and Delthuntle, and Mulhorand would launch it's fleet from Sultim and possible all the way from Skuld. The major, deciding battle of the war would be at the Alaor. 3) Somehow I doubt that Murghom will come quietly back to Mulhorand - that's never happened in history, real or fantasy. There will be a war, Thayan influenced or not. 4) The Nar appear to be capable of uniting agaisnt a common enemy, if once a year all differances are set aside for the great trademeet. So, for example, if the tribes of the Endless Wastes were to attack the Nar, they would unite. 5) What troubles? I see no troubles in the Great Dale. Then again, it does seem like Club Med for druids, so you're probably right in that it won't attack anyone. That would be the X factor that the Thayans would probably deal with themselves after the wars had ended. 6) Thesk I can see as a nation that would attack Algarond...given the right insentive. If they are a "merchant empire", similar to Amn, then they have a price, one which the Thayans would gladly pay if they thought the gain was great enough - and if the gain was having every one of thier neighbors weakened, then they would gladly pay. Also, because they are rich...Kara-Turan goods must make them very rich, in fact...thier war with Algarond would focus more on acts of terrorism and espionage then actual battles. Thesk would more focus on securing and fortifying it's borders and cities as far as soldiers went, then send in assassins...for all we know, from Kata-Tur...to assassinate some people and make it seem like it was...I dunno, the Mulhorandi. In fact, assuming that Aglorand were to go to war with Mulhorand, then framing the Mulhorandi for the assassinations would be the perfect cover. You don't need an army to fight a war, remember. Also realise that the Thayans wouldn't just walk right up to leaders of differant nations and say "Go fight this guy, and defend agaisnt this guy". No. They would spend decades stirring up conflicts, performing assassinations, bribing people, and whispering the right words into the right ears. So, it wouldn't suddenly be an all-out war. It would be a slow process. One nation would declare war against another, and that would fight on, then another would fight the first, and so fourth. Also, there is nothing wrong with reversing that 'wheel of war'. In other words...Aglarond against Thesk, Thesk against the Great Dale, the aforementioned Dale against the Nar, the Nar against Rashemen, Rashemen against the tribes of the Endless Wastes, said tribes against Murghom, Murghom against Mulhorand, and Mulhorand agaisnt Algarond. Or, in fact, anything, so long as all those nations are at war with at least one of the other nations.
Masakado 07-14-03, 11:19 AM	Originally posted by Savras Real, large Thayan Enclaves are few- 23. "Other large cities may have a single shop staffed by a habdful of thayan wizards or are visited at least monthly by traveling wizards with goods to sell." LoD, pg 65 (the sidebar). So not all what you seem to think, eh? Not really. Toss the term "safehouse" in dictionary.com one day. ;)
Rawel 03-26-04, 04:15 PM	Hello, i've got a question i'm quite surprised at the fact that from what i can gather up to date none of the good aligned nations have set up economic sanctions against Thay? I mean wouldn't they be the least bothered that they are supporting slavers and possible enemies? Secondly wouldn't at least some of the mages that made money by item creation start lobbying against the expansion? I would also think that given that they are expanding into places with Zentharim influence the zhent's might have the sense to try and frame them for a few murders or assasinations or some such. Just my 2 copper pieces.:)
Arkenian 03-27-04, 01:30 AM	This, Rawel, is the true genius of the whole Enclave business. The Thayans are offering magic items dirt cheap (10% off to pretty much anyone, with a pretty broad selection), in no small part because they can essentially afford to work apprentice wizards to death. But everyone wants magic items, and most of the "Good" realms nations are, in actual fact, merchant oligarchies. The thayans VERY carefully don't practice slavery (at least, not in any way that gets them CAUGHT) in nations that disapprove of it. They're going in to a propaganda war. People have been spreading tales about "Evil red wizards" for years . . . but now, to your average sort, the "Evil red wizards" aren't really all that bad. And in a lot of places they're also providing things like basic magic services to the city council etc. etc. etc. Plus illiicit trade. AND . . . they're part of one of the more important industries for determining intelligence, they're conveniently rubbing shoulders with the wealthy/important people of cities on regular occassions (great for picking up scrying keys) And they're making cash hand over fist. In one campaign I'm playing in right now, my PC is Khazark of an RW trading caravan . . . And the profit numbers are very, very nice. The key thing about the RWs marketing themselves as merchants is that it doesn't make sense . . . until you sit down and think about the governmental structure of most of western faerun. And the nature of the dominant Chondathan race. The Thayans are basically indicating to the Chondathans that they're people that can be "dealt" with. Whereas before, an RW was trusted about as far as he could be thrown out of a bar.
Shima 03-27-04, 03:24 AM	The reason to conquer other lands is for power and wealth. Money is not only wealth but also power, and their current tactics bring them alot money. What keeps the lands of Thay together is that this system is working so well for them right now. They are making alot of money that way, and it would be pretty stupid for them to screw up their relations all over the world by making attacks. That would be bad for buisness. Dont forget that this is a big world to conquer and you need alot money to do it.
dragonheart 03-29-04, 05:18 PM	Having thay as teh magical microsoft of faerun is great - the only problem seems to be that szass has a much longer view than the rest of the zulkirs who are always squabbling for power - if microsoft were run that way Linux would be the main operating system today. Still its a wo nderful new version of evildom that will be great to play against. and are the Dales the Linux community howling in the wilderness about freedom and equal opportunity??
primemover003 03-29-04, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by Druxus Rhym Yeah, the way I see it the Red Wizards are just unordgainized and in the worst place ever if they were in the Western Heartlands they would DOMINATE!!! Actually with an Enclave in Hill's Edge, Secomber, and Irieabor they are already well on their way to dominating the WH. My new Campaign is based exactly on this concept! 3 Thayan Enclaves, a Darkhold under Cyricist rule, a turf war between the Shadow Thieves and the Night Mask's... and Lord Dhelt of Elturel has been killed! The most powerful military force for good in the West is now leaderless... Even the Harpers are staggered at the loss of the High Rider. My timeline is more advanced (1377) but my PC's are in for a rough ride!