| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| WraithXIII08-30-03, 10:09 PM | "They conducted rituals, bizarre rituals intended to bring about the end of the world, and now it looks like it may actually happen!" Egon Spengler, GHOSTBUSTERS "Death has been shown to by no means be a career-ending proposition for powers of the realms." Faiths and Avatars "From the smoking husk of his remains emerged a newly reinvigorated Bane, his right hand ablaze with green fire." Faiths and Pantheons So with the possibilities opened by the Faiths and Pantheons book and a wonderful set of House Rules, Bhaal shall once again set foot upon Faerun. How is this going to happen? With the help of a very powerful faction known as the Crimson Blades that is set in Waterdeep. The possibility of Bhaal's resurrection was always there, but now with an elite guild of assasins and thieves, it could very well happen for sure! In your opinions, how do you think this will affect the realms? How will this affect the gods themselves? In my game, Ao allows the rise of Bhaal because of Cyric's attempts time and again to unbalance the pantheons in a quest for power. So that formality is covered. Now it's just how the rest of the world reacts to this...let me know. |
| rmilsop08-31-03, 12:46 AM | Did Bane used to be Bhaal's overlord, or more of a partner in crime? Either way, would they fall back into the old routine, or would they have more of a rivalry going now that they've both died and come back? At any rate, yay for bhaal! I never did like cyric. |
| Mr. Wilson08-31-03, 02:10 AM | what portfolio(s) are you giving him? Kelemvor has death and the dead. Cyric has murder, lies, intrigue, deception, and illusion. Mask has Thieves, thievery, and shadows. Are you going to take death and the dead from Kel, or murder from Cyric? It seems to me that if you take murder from Cyric, then Mask and Cyric become redundant. Interesting idea though, and one I've been kicking around. |
| rmilsop08-31-03, 06:46 AM | well, given cyric is bhaal's replacement, and given the explanation detailed by Wraith, I'd assume that Ao is allowing Bhaal to reappear and contect Cyric's control of the Murder portfolio. |
| Gotrex08-31-03, 10:05 AM | Bhaals old assasins portfolio is still unclaimed aint it? |
| Zanan08-31-03, 05:27 PM | Originally posted by Gotrex Bhaals old assasins portfolio is still unclaimed aint it? Unclaimed it is. Assassins do follow Cyric, Shar and other gods as worshippers though. |
| WraithXIII09-01-03, 09:58 AM | Let me see if I can answer all the questions... 1. Bane is Bhaal's superior, who along with Myrkul, orchestrated the whole Tablet of Fate theft. Bhaal didn't have much to do with it, but did get ahold of one of the Tablets breifly. 2. Bhaal cares nothing for intrigue and such, only murder, the art of the kill. This whole exercise is really just to kick Cyric's little heiny from the pantheon. 3. Ao is allowing it because of the threat Cyric presents. Cyric is so concerned with getting evryone else's portfolios that he creates unbalance in both his own and others affairs at times. 4 You should have been there last night when we played, I had half of them so outta their minds! Right now Bhaal is still in human form, weak, but I led the paladin and barbarian right into Bhaal's throne room, which connects to the astral plane. Bhaal and the group's evil monk had a chat, and the thief assassin in the group got possessed by his own sword. I thought it was a good game. |
| Mirtek09-01-03, 10:04 AM | You have a paldin in the same group with an evil monk? :confused: |
| Cherrn09-01-03, 02:48 PM | Originally posted by WraithXIII 3. Ao is allowing it because of the threat Cyric presents. Cyric is so concerned with getting evryone else's portfolios that he creates unbalance in both his own and others affairs at times. There's nothing wrong with creating unbalance in both his own and others affairs . He does exactly what his portfolio says he should do (strife). Strife follow him in his footsteps. If you read "Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad" you will see that Cyric does indeed follow his godly duties. The threat he poses to other gods is something he must do in order to not face the wrath of Ao. |
| n0xious22009-02-03, 07:42 PM | I too am trying to incorperate the return of Bhaal in my campaign. The PC's have been tracking down a high priest of Cyric for their own reasons for quite sometime. Last game session I had Bhaal cultists and a Mask follower confront the party leader offering help to the party. My idea is that the Mask and Bhaal followers want to lead the party into a mass genocide of the Cyricists. In my opinion killing followers of a Diety can weaken him greatly. Then Mask strikes out at Cyric seizing back the Intrigue portfolio and Bhaal returns somehow taking back the Murder portfolio. What do you think? |
| Mirtek09-03-03, 05:37 AM | Don't think Mask will ever again try to go against Cyric. Latest information from F&A said that he tries his best to stay out of Cyric's sight and mind. And about the mass genocide of Cyricist, good luck. First of all you had to kill ten thousand and more at once, the even gain Cyric's attention or you certainly won't make much of a difference in the flow of new worshippers and slain worshippers the church has anyway. Secondly: Good luck to strike at the church of Cyric. Cyric's church is superior to other churches since there basically is no church of Cyric. There are simply thousands of completly independ cults and sects, which operate seperately from each other and often on cell does not know of the existance of the next (and if they know of each other, be certain they are already engaged in a war to wipe the other out). |
| WraithXIII09-03-03, 10:20 PM | Let me clear up one or two misconceptions. 1. Cyric does not hold the portfolio of strife. This powerful and dangerous portfolio belongs to Bane once again. Cyric lost much power when Bane rose from the ashes of Xvim, and made one more enemy in the process. 2. Cyric has no allies. Since he has no allies, he does not have anyone to help him hold onto the portfolios he does have. If I remember correctly, they are murder, lies, intrigue, deception, and illusion. Now what is to say that Bhaal wouldn't make a deal with Shar, Mask, and Bane to name a few. Shar hates Cyric and wants the portfolio of illusion. Mask would once again find himself in between a rock and a hard spot when approached by Bhaal. Bhaal would know who killed him and how and if Mask did not wish to cooperate, well, Bhaal already has an elite gruop of assassins who obey only him. Bane would gladly ally with his former charge just to see the strife it would cause by starting a cleansing, just like Cyric did after Bane's fall. Cyric, although no longer insane, still fancies himself as the most powerful god in Faerun and that fact will be his downfall. Bhaal has no problem with offing tens of thousands of people just for the thrill of it. So now all that really remains for Bhaal to completely 'resurrect' himself is to merge with his essence at the Boaryskyr Bridge. After that, Cyric is relegated to the ranks of lesser dieties! |
| Charles Phipps09-03-03, 11:00 PM | Bane hasn't gotten Strife back yet in canon It helps his Church stay under control :-) |
| Mirtek09-04-03, 05:31 AM | Originally posted by WraithXIII 1. Cyric does not hold the portfolio of strife. This powerful and dangerous portfolio belongs to Bane once again. Cyric lost much power when Bane rose from the ashes of Xvim, and made one more enemy in the process. No, Cyric didn't lose anything when Bane rose from the ashes of Xvim, except the last few ex-Banites who didn't switch to Xvim. Since the vast majority of the ex-Banites in his church was already converted to Xvim, the few people who then converted back to Bane were far to few to matter. Bane does not hold the portfolio of strife, Cyric does. The FRCS saying that Bane has strife was an error, an error which has quickly been corrected with the official FRCS errata. F&P is a little confusing, since it mentions both, Cyric and Bane, as ruling over the strife portfolio. But this is just an error aswell and Sean K. Reynolds already explained it as being caused by the F&P designers working with a pre-errata FRCS. FRCS FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting Errata, page 3 p. 235, Bane’s portfolio: Cut “strife” and capitalize “hatred” p. 235, Cyric’s portfolio: Add “strife” p. 239: Add "strife" to Cyric's portfolio F&P seankreynolds, posted May 11, 2002 10:55 AM I think I figured it out. Here's the sequence.The designer for Bane must have used the pre-errata version (understandable, as the errata didn't come out until after this book was designed). [...] So no, Bane does not have strife as part of his portfolio, Cyric does. Originally posted by WraithXIII Shar hates Cyric and wants the portfolio of illusion. Actually Shar and Cyric are about to ally, or at least to work out a deal, since Shar wants Cyric to switch to the shadow weave for his clergy. Although i don't think Cyric is foolish enough to agree (he's more clever than Bane) Originally posted by WraithXIII Mask would once again find himself in between a rock and a hard spot when approached by Bhaal. Bhaal would know who killed him and how and if Mask did not wish to cooperate, well, Bhaal already has an elite gruop of assassins who obey only him. Just say: Why should Mask fear Bhaal? Pre-ToT Mask was more powerfull than Bhaal and during the ToT Mask slew Bhaal. And Bhaal's assassin agains Mask's many thievesguilds? |
| Cherrn09-04-03, 07:00 AM | Damn Mirtek said all things I would said. Good one Mirtek ;) |
| TheDarkestOfAngels09-04-03, 09:08 PM | Originally posted by Mirtek No, Cyric didn't lose anything when Bane rose from the ashes of Xvim, except the last few ex-Banites who didn't switch to Xvim. Since the vast majority of the ex-Banites in his church was already converted to Xvim, the few people who then converted back to Bane were far to few to matter. Bane does not hold the portfolio of strife, Cyric does. The FRCS saying that Bane has strife was an error, an error which has quickly been corrected with the official FRCS errata. F&P is a little confusing, since it mentions both, Cyric and Bane, as ruling over the strife portfolio. But this is just an error aswell and Sean K. Reynolds already explained it as being caused by the F&P designers working with a pre-errata FRCS. FRCS F&P Actually Shar and Cyric are about to ally, or at least to work out a deal, since Shar wants Cyric to switch to the shadow weave for his clergy. Although i don't think Cyric is foolish enough to agree (he's more clever than Bane) Just say: Why should Mask fear Bhaal? Pre-ToT Mask was more powerfull than Bhaal and during the ToT Mask slew Bhaal. And Bhaal's assassin agains Mask's many thievesguilds? yes, cyric is a very powerful diety, but assassins do tend to be more powerful than your atypical thief guild memeber. (they'd suffer fewer memebers, but more powerful individual members, kinda like the protoss vs. the zerg in starcraft. Ahh, fond memories.) As far as the gods themselves go, I think Cyric would be concerned that Bhaal would take some portfolios upon his return. (Probably with some help, though, or through careful planning.) Though I agree than Cyric would be more powerful and would waste Bhaal again, but things are different since they aren't walking Farun. You never know.... stranger things have happened before. |
| Charles Phipps09-04-03, 09:39 PM | I think Bhaal should return in a bizzare manner.... I use this plotline a lot in my games, ironically for Cyric. A great new cult has sprung up in the Realms called the "Order of Universal Harmony" which everywhere in the land is preaching peace, harmony, sexual fufillment, and the fact there is only one god who is good and pure that shall rid the world of all evil.... protect your lifestock....etc.... Strangely its actually catching on in vast amounts as people move onward in pilgrimages to the New God whose opponents often die mysteriously, occasionally killed by their own families, and everyone who suspects something is blaming someone else (its Conan the Barbarian's plot basically) In truth it is the CHOSEN OF BHAAL who has been restored to his full power and has gathered the Evil members of Kelemvor's clergy together as a heresy unbeknowst to the God to prepare for Cyric's death and Bhaal's elevation Basically Bhaal returned in the whole Bhaalspawn thing as the deaths from every bhaalspawn that murdered someone gathered energy and every bhaalspawn killed by another had that energy transferred Now the Demigod of Assasination is slowly working to steal Death and Murder back along with Illusions, Treachery, Intrigue, and more.... Supporting him in this is Shar and Bane who are tired of Cyric's grandstanding but Bhaal intends to destroy Bane as well for killing his assasins In the end Mask and Bhaal will form a new faction against both! |
| Dargoth09-04-03, 10:50 PM | As for Bhaal Im using the Bhaalspawn idea (but im not using the events in the BG series) A Half fiend Human Bhaalspawn Monk has taken control of one of the 3 Monks of the Long death monostarys (the one in Scardale) and they now worship him as Death incarnate. The Bhaalspawn is able to grant spells to any Divine spell caster who worships him or Bhaal in 10 mile radius As for Cyric he lost a heap of Worshipers when Bane returned Xvim was only a Lesser power when he died Now according to page 6 of F&P A lesser power has between a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers Now Bane is a greater power and according to LOD Bane has 135,000 worshipers this means that Cyric lost anywhere between 30,000+ worshipers when Bane returned. Best case scenario Cyric looses 30,000 worshipers to Bane. 30,000 is 10% of 280,000 (250,000 Cyricists + 30,000 defectors) Cyric lost at LEAST 10% of his worshipers when Bane returned and it was likely alot more Xvim was probably a lower end Lesser power (he had only just become a Lesser power in 1368) so he probably only had a few thousand worshipers when he died which means up to 120,000 worshipers may have defected from cyrics church when Bane returned |
| Charles Phipps09-04-03, 11:18 PM | I think its much more likely that those 100,000 odd worshippers are instead the collected sum of the worshippers of Mulmaster when that place became the state religion of Zhentil Keep Its far more likely that Helm and other gods lost their worshippers. Cyrics worshippers are Chaotic Evil....at most he lost some neutral evil people to Bane (I know you don't have to have the one step alignment rule) But seriously Cyric and Bane's church had long since parted ways in my mind Probably since Ssass Tam worships Bane, Thay was another place that converted en masse...meaning Kossurath was probably the god that got hit the hardest |
| WraithXIII09-04-03, 11:27 PM | All of my information comes from the Faiths and Pantheons Campaign Accesory 1. Bane's Portfolios; Strife, hatred, tyranny, fear. Page 14 Bane's Effective Levels; Fighter-15/Blackguard-10/Cleric-10 Wizard-10/Rogue-20 = 65 Page 16 Bane is a greater Diety, with a divine rank of 17 2. Cyric's Portfolios; Murder, lies, intrigue, deception, shadow Page 20 Cyric's Effective Levels; Fighter-3/Rogue-20/Assassin-10/ Illusionist-20 = 53 Page 21 Cyric is also a greater diety with a divine rank of 17 Going by the pure numbers, Cyric is a grease spot on The Supreme Throne. I was wrong about Shar hating Cyric, she actually has hatred for Mask, because of his power over the shadows, sorry! That was pre ToT Mask, the Mask that we all know and love isn't near as powerful as he was before. He lost power when Godsbane was broken, when he read the Cyrinishad, and until recently, was chased by Kezef unceasingly. Mask hates Cyric for stealing part of his portfolioand endlessly schemes to regain what he considers rightfully his. He also has a tenuous relationship with Bane. Power for a god is obtained by worshippers, so the fact that Bhaal is travel to and fro via the Astral Plane to re-establish his base is very important. Once he drinks of the poisoned waters of the Boaryskyr Bridge, he will regain much of his power and no longer have need for a human vessel. Once his assassins have been aprised of their god's return, you can expect that many Cyricist's and maybe some others will fall to many blades guided by Bhaal's orders. Top it of with overt attacks from the Banites, led by thieves who follow Mask, and you have a legitimate threat. I know how you feel, we all have our favorite gods. I think Cyric has become a joke in the realms though, a king who acts like a petulant child when things don't go his way. True, Cyric has many followers. But those followers are used to striking from the shadows...what happens when some of their allies strike them from within, betraying the Prince of Lies, and elevating their true master to his rightful place in the pantheon again. |
| Mirtek09-05-03, 03:39 AM | Originally posted by WraithXIII All of my information comes from the Faiths and Pantheons Campaign Accesory 1. Bane's Portfolios; Strife, hatred, tyranny, fear. Page 14 Bane's Effective Levels; Fighter-15/Blackguard-10/Cleric-10 Wizard-10/Rogue-20 = 65 Page 16 Bane is a greater Diety, with a divine rank of 17 2. Cyric's Portfolios; Murder, lies, intrigue, deception, shadow Page 20 Cyric's Effective Levels; Fighter-3/Rogue-20/Assassin-10/ Illusionist-20 = 53 Page 21 Cyric is also a greater diety with a divine rank of 17 I know what F&P says, but supplements often make errors. That's why basically each of them has an errata (and the F&P errata is already overdue (the strife thing isn't the only error). Also page 20 doesn't say "shadow" as one of Cyric's portfolios, i guess you mean "illusion" BTW: 1. Cyric's portfolios; Murder, lies, intrigue, strife, deception, illusion 2. Bane's Portfolios; Hatred, tyranny, fear. F&P, page 223 Originally posted by WraithXIII Going by the pure numbers, Cyric is a grease spot on The Supreme Throne. Going by their stats Cyric would defeat Bane, thx to his "Surpreme Initiative" Originally posted by WraithXIII Once his assassins have been aprised of their god's return, you can expect that many Cyricist's and maybe some others will fall to many blades guided by Bhaal's orders. Bhaal may have some good assassiny, but so does Cyric. And since basically all assassins are new since after-ToT, most of them are loyal to Cyric. Originally posted by WraithXIII Top it of with overt attacks from the Banites, led by thieves who follow Mask, and you have a legitimate threat. And where to strike? The CoC is as dangerous as she is because there's no real church. There are no real centers of power. There's no order, no structure. No point to strike at. You can destroy a few cells, but Cyric's church is the cancer of faerun, growing everywhere in the shadows, in the sewers, in the remote wilderness. Destroying a cell will at best cause the next rival cell to celebrate the destruction of their enemies, in the first case the founding of three new cells by the survivors which were away during the attack and now found their own sects. Originally posted by WraithXIII I think Cyric has become a joke in the realms though, a king who acts like a petulant child when things don't go his way. He's no more a fool than Bane and Bhaal. Everytime the evil gods appear in novles they appear like idiots who lose in the end. See the Moonshae novels (a defeat for Bhaal bigger and more painfully than any Cyric has ever suffered) See Pools of Darkness (you think Cyric acts like a child? Read the epiloge and see how much of a big spoiled child Bane is) Originally posted by WraithXIII what happens when some of their allies strike them from within, betraying the Prince of Lies, and elevating their true master to his rightful place in the pantheon again. Allies betraying them? Strikes from withing? You are aware that you are describing the complelty normal day to day life in Cyirc's church? Duskblade said it the best in some other thread (glad i made a copy of his post): Originally posted by Duskblade First of all, it's been 15 years since Cyric's ascension so most of those early joiners (banites, bhaalyn, myrkulytes and a few opportunist maskarrans who flocked to Cyric the moment he became a deity, the leirans who joined after Cyric killed Leira) are already dead due to the many purges and Cyric's insanity, the defections when Kelemvor ascended and later a few weaklings who groveled back to Bane when he returned, yet nontheless the faith has always been one of the largest and most wide-spread of religions on Toril. In recent times Cyric regained his sanity he stopped overtly giving conflicting orders to the various sects, also the most powerful sects have grown considerably due to taking over many smaller sects and trying to worm their way into influential political positions throughout Faerun such as in Amn, Calimshan, Innarlith. If one of the sects in Amn manages to overcome the other or unite the two then the only thing to would stand in their way of ruling Amn is the Shadow Thieves. Calimshan is a very competetive nation not unlike a cyricist sect so it's no wonder they thrive there. Innarlith is ruled by Cyricists (mostly behind the scenes) already. Besides the greater sects their are uncountable sects of only a few or a few dozen worshippers plotting to gain power and cause havoc, unlike most faiths, the cyricist faith is truly everywhere in Faerun. You say that the cyricist faith will crumble within a decade, yet you are wrong, the faith is only now beginning to implement strife against their enemys, against all the nations and powergroups. The most powerful sects are interwoven with governments and organizations and the smaller ones undetectable until they strike. The cyricist faith doesn't have large armies true, what would they do with them? They don't want to besiege city's or conquer by force, this only gets the people more determined to fight. Cyricists use deception, intrigue, lies, murder and strife to get what they want, by the time the general population knows that the leadership has changed it's already too late to effectively fight it. You believe that the banites are secure in their strongholds, I say they're trapped and surrounded with plenty of ennemies who know where to find them. The banite faith has been around for nigh on 1500 years, give or take a century, in in all that time who much of the world did they conquer? Almost nothing! The Cyricist faith exists for a mere 15 years and it's followers are everywhere within Faerun and likely outside of the continent as well. Assassinate the top hierarchy of the banite church and Bane himself will have to interfere and appoint people or his church will crumble, kill the leading cyricist of every cell and a new leader will step up before the old one's corpse is disposed off, at worst a few other cyricists will die or a few small cults fall apart but the faith will hardly be harmed. Plenty of people think the Cyric and his minions are insane fools, let them think so, and the cyricist faith has already won a victory. |
| )v(ethos09-05-03, 04:08 PM | POSSIBLE SPOILER ABOUT BG SERIES, GAMES AND BOOKS, BELOW Arent we missing something here. I havent read the books, but i think Bhaals essence got spread over the universe so that he, like the old mystra, is not resurrectable, even by Ao. I think someone said this at a time, which woulod mean that what your talking about cant be happening. But im not sure anyway... |
| Charles Phipps09-06-03, 02:24 AM | Out of curiousity but we're using the Bhaalspawn template for one of the characters. The character has suffered from uncontrollable homicidal lust and bizzare passions from the inception even if he struggles to put them in a socially acceptable profession... I.e Adventuring Basically though the character has become the Chosen of another deity and I was curious what this would mean when and if the character actually did ascend. (The Gods are ironically Mystra and Hoar) How should one play the progression as well.... Is there a ghost of a chance really that the character could survive or is it really less a matter of "I ascend and take on cyric" than "I ascend and can take on whatever porfolio I can con the gods into giving me?" also in the most embarrassing campaign confession... In the books it said if a Bhaalspawn caused 2000 deaths that he'd ascend. Well what should I do with the fact the character has in fact done so and more? I mean when your adventurer...stuff happens |
| Dargoth09-06-03, 03:53 AM | The deaths should only count if the character declares that hes killing them for the purpose of Becoming the new Lord of Murder |
| kedi09-06-03, 04:01 AM | Originally posted by )v(ethos POSSIBLE SPOILER ABOUT BG SERIES, GAMES AND BOOKS, BELOW Arent we missing something here. I havent read the books, but i think Bhaals essence got spread over the universe so that he, like the old mystra, is not resurrectable, even by Ao. I think someone said this at a time, which woulod mean that what your talking about cant be happening. But im not sure anyway... :rofl: midnight suck the essence of old mystra, she has the essence, any deatth god or ao can reincarnate her |
| Zanan09-06-03, 05:01 AM | Just a few remarks ... The Zhentarim split more or less in half once the news broke that Bane was back. Thus, the number of Cyric's worshippers on that part also dwindled. Yet, despite having said that, the Zhentarim split does not mean that each and every person involved switched allegiance as well, for one does not change his religious beliefs from one day to the next or by 100%. This does also mean that it is not for sure that all pre-rise-Bane Thentarim were devoted Cyricists down to the core. Bhaal's return ... well, the problem here is the fact that the Wizards made a "mistake" in allowing the BG & BG II games get out of hand. The result is that you have the core rulings of F&A and F&P on the one hand, the equally official BG series on the other. As the Wizards have to concede that anything with the logo FR (and as such BG) is official, we do in fact have two versions of the Realms history now to deal with. Taking the BG series as official means that Bhaal was indeed clever enough to transfer some of his essence into mortals (as well as in that River at Boarskyr Bridge (I think?). Thus, there's much more reason to belief that he has a good chance to be resurrected and reinstated as ... say the god of murder ... than any other dead god around (including Orcus :smirk: ). Mask, on the other hand, is about to link up with Bane again (even though the latter is somewhat suspicious) and is furthermore looking towards Vhaeraun to gain new power. On the same note, he may gain the support of Lolth (once she's back) to kill that thorn in her side. Speaking of her ... assassins is one of her portfolios as well and as she symbolizes power-hunger, I wouldn't be surprised if she looks over any Bhaalspawn's shoulder just to seize the opportunity once it arises. :D |
| WraithXIII09-06-03, 09:17 AM | Originally posted by Mirtek I know what F&P says, but supplements often make errors. That's why basically each of them has an errata (and the F&P errata is already overdue (the strife thing isn't the only error). Also page 20 doesn't say "shadow" as one of Cyric's portfolios, i guess you mean "illusion" BTW: 1. Cyric's portfolios; Murder, lies, intrigue, strife, deception, illusion 2. Bane's Portfolios; Hatred, tyranny, fear. F&P, page 223 Not every has the Errata, it is not widespread like the FR manuals, it is not dogmatic law. Going by their stats Cyric would defeat Bane, thx to his "Surpreme Initiative" Let's give you the supreme initiative thing, that only gives Cyric first action every round. Bane does approx. 40 points of damage an attack, Cyric only 34. Top that off with Bane's 1000+ HP to Cyric's 660+. Simple math. Check out Bane's saves compared to Cyric's, Bane has him topped by 20-30 points. Bhaal may have some good assassiny, but so does Cyric. And since basically all assassins are new since after-ToT, most of them are loyal to Cyric. And where to strike? The CoC is as dangerous as she is because there's no real church. There are no real centers of power. There's no order, no structure. No point to strike at. You can destroy a few cells, but Cyric's church is the cancer of faerun, growing everywhere in the shadows, in the sewers, in the remote wilderness. Destroying a cell will at best cause the next rival cell to celebrate the destruction of their enemies, in the first case the founding of three new cells by the survivors which were away during the attack and now found their own sects. Wrong. Cyric has temples and a church base. There is no pontiff to unite all the Cyricists under one banner. This is Cyric's legacy to his followers, first he orders them to kill each other in his insanity, now he tries to stop it. But it won't. Mortals are so very fickle that way. In the words of a famous person, a house divided against itself cannot stand He's no more a fool than Bane and Bhaal. Everytime the evil gods appear in novles they appear like idiots who lose in the end. See the Moonshae novels (a defeat for Bhaal bigger and more painfully than any Cyric has ever suffered) See Pools of Darkness (you think Cyric acts like a child? Read the epiloge and see how much of a big spoiled child Bane is) We are talking the here and now. Bane has learned many lessons and does not take chances out of reckless arrogance. And Bhaal-Resurrect? Neither will he. Allies betraying them? Strikes from withing? You are aware that you are describing the complelty normal day to day life in Cyirc's church? Duskblade said it the best in some other thread (glad i made a copy of his post): Like I said, united we stand, divided we fall. What happens when one whole temples inhabitants disappear in one day at the hands of a Rogue-20/Assassin20? |
| Cherrn09-06-03, 09:28 AM | Then when a thing like that happens a Fighter-3/Rogue-20/Assassin-10/Illusionist-20 could prolly intervene and take out the trash :P |
| )v(ethos09-06-03, 01:24 PM | Quote: midnight suck the essence of old mystra, she has the essence, any deatth god or ao can reincarnate her No, the old Mystra is gone forever. Its said so in the Avatar Trilogy, even Ao cant get her back. I cant remember who said so. But it was either Elminster or Ao himself. So no. And Personality and god-essence is not the same. And as i recall Bhaal's essence got shattereed so that he is also not ressurectable. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-06-03, 06:56 PM | Bhaal's essence was *not* scattered, is was culled together and is now stored--I believe--in the Upper Planes. At least according to the *game* it was--I don't remember how it was done in the ToB novel. Anyway, nothing is impossible in the Realms, so I wouldn't call a resurrection of Bhaal impossible, even if the essence was scattered. |
| Mirtek09-06-03, 10:56 PM | Originally posted by WraithXIII Not every has the Errata, it is not widespread like the FR manuals, it is not dogmatic law. No, but the FRCS has and it clearly says that Cyric has strife and not Bane. Also F&P doesn't agree with itself, since it says that Bane has strife on one page and then that Cyric has strife on annother page. And Sean already clarified about the F&P issue. Originally posted by WraithXIII Let's give you the supreme initiative thing, that only gives Cyric first action every round. Bane does approx. 40 points of damage an attack, Cyric only 34. Top that off with Bane's 1000+ HP to Cyric's 660+. Simple math. Check out Bane's saves compared to Cyric's, Bane has him topped by 20-30 points. The saves don't really matter, since both of them will save against everything the other can throw at them. And Banes higher melee damage is also not important, since none of them will ever be able to defeat the other in melee. Because none can kill the other with melee in a single round and both can heal themselves as often as they desire an unlimited number of times. Destroy them in a single round, or don't destroy them at all. Originally posted by WraithXIII Wrong. Cyric has temples and a church base. Of course he has temples, but his church has no general base, no general structure and no general hierarchy. What one of his churches does, doesn't matter at all for the others. Originally posted by WraithXIII We are talking the here and now. Bane has learned many lessons and does not take chances out of reckless arrogance. And Bhaal-Resurrect? Neither will he.[quote] And you think Cyric learned nothing? He has more Int than Bane! [QUOTE]Originally posted by WraithXIII Like I said, united we stand, divided we fall. What happens when one whole temples inhabitants disappear in one day at the hands of a Rogue-20/Assassin20? And where will this epic level char come from? And if Bhaal has epic worshippers, Cyric will have them as well. And don't forget that Cyric already knows about any murder 17 tendays before it happes. |
| Charles Phipps09-07-03, 04:09 AM | For story purposes lets look at this way.... 1. Cyric in Forgotten Realms canon is going nowhere Cyric is the God of Murder, Strife, Illusion, and Intrigue. He's a right ******* and he's done more than his share to earn that title. He murdered Leira, he massacred the followers of all three of his religions, he impersonated other gods to mess with their faithful, and his Chosen Malik despite being seemingly incompetent has cut a bloody swath across Faerun's heroes including killing a 20th level paladin of Torm. Yes he's had some titanic screw ups like losing his mind to the Cyrinishad (but the fact that its ever found it can make GODS serve him is dangerous enough), losing the Underworld, and of course losing Tyranny to Xvim But the fact remains Cyric is basically the most insane god of blatant evil for its own sake there is. 2. Cyric in his campaign is incompetent We don't know much about Bhaal at all really. Maybe Bhaal had alot more going for him than we thought he did. The fact remains there are a number of fun adventure hooks that might actually be involved here.... Here's some ideas to HELP with the character death of Bhaal's nemesis Cyric * The campaign to ressurect Bhaal is actually from within Cyric's church itself Cyric's own faithful have started to hate him that they have banded together to create a new god for their master out of the remains of the Old God. Maybe CYRIC is the god who wants this because he thinks he can enslave the new Bhaal to win. * Other deities are helping new born Bhaal Maybe in a shocking alliance Talona and Loviathar are actually allied rather than hating each other as both believe they have become persona non grata in the new order of fear and pain. Shar, Bane, Mask, and possibly even completely off the wall choices like Talos, Hoar, and Gargauth/Gargos are putting their money on the destroyer Maybe the ritual is being done by Velsharoon with a titanic alliance of all the Evil Gods in Faerun (And Cyric's clergy are involved but he doesn't know) * Bhaal has some titanic advantage The adventurers might be questing for something to defeat Cyric for the disguised church of Bhaal....in this case in fact discover all of Bhaal's ancient weaponry that are powerful artifacts. Maybe Bhaal is going to do something like Bane did to him.... Suddenly Bane and/or Cyric discovers there's a massive plot to get the true name of every single one of their followers. * Cyric makes some titanic mistake...again Perhaps the way the Cyrinishad works is because Bhaal's essence is trapped in it or something else....maybe Cyric has it stored elsewhere like in a crown, sword...errr Well you know and Cyric simply is overwhlemed like Xvim and is consumed for Bhaal's ressurection * Maybe Bhaal finds that stupid last word and kills Cyric :-) |
| Scede09-08-03, 07:09 AM | Originally posted by Mr. Wilson what portfolio(s) are you giving him? Kelemvor has death and the dead. Cyric has murder, lies, intrigue, deception, and illusion. Mask has Thieves, thievery, and shadows. Are you going to take death and the dead from Kel, or murder from Cyric? It seems to me that if you take murder from Cyric, then Mask and Cyric become redundant. If you took murder from Cyric you basically have Leira plus intrigue. Then our favorite buddy Mask could shank his butt and be the true god to thieves and illusionists everywhere. Also, from what I've read on, I think the "Ask Richard Baker" thread he mentioned that the BG games were non-canon. |
| )v(ethos09-08-03, 12:01 PM | @Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Can you tell me more of what happened to Bhaal in the game? Werent there numerous possible endings? I need more info:) |
| Kvol09-09-03, 12:34 PM | Originally posted by Mirtek Although i don't think Cyric is foolish enough to agree (he's more clever than Bane) Do you think? Personally, I think the fact is that he was recently mortal, and still makes the sort of mistakes and errors of judgement that mortals do. Reading an artifact such as the Cyrinishad, knowing full well its power, for example, is either an act of utter madness or consumate arrogance, or more likely a combination of the two. I know in Faiths and Pantheons his intelligence is listed as 40 to Banes 30, but I think this reflects the size of his faith, which is of course, directly proportional to his deific power, and hence stats. At the height of his power, Bane was relatively more intelligent than Cyric, according to Faiths and Avatars (INT 23 as opposed to 17), which I think reflects better his inherent intellect, and also the fact that he has greater experience of the position and nature of godhood, than for instance, a comparatively young deity like the Prince of Lies. Having just realised this is supposed to be a thread about Bhaal, I will leave it at that. |
| kedi09-09-03, 12:40 PM | Originally posted by Kvol Do you think? Personally, I think the fact is that he was recently mortal, and still makes the sort of mistakes and errors of judgement that mortals do. Reading an artifact such as the Cyrinishad, knowing full well its power, for example, is either an act of utter madness or consumate arrogance, or more likely a combination of the two. I know in Faiths and Pantheons his intelligence is listed as 40 to Banes 30, but I think this reflects the size of his faith, which is of course, directly proportional to his deific power, and hence stats. At the height of his power, Bane was relatively more intelligent than Cyric, according to Faiths and Avatars (INT 23 as opposed to 17), which I think reflects better his inherent intellect, and also the fact that he has greater experience of the position and nature of godhood, than for instance, a comparatively young deity like the Prince of Lies. Having just realised this is supposed to be a thread about Bhaal, I will leave it at that. hes but clever, just like halaster |
| Kvol09-09-03, 01:23 PM | I would be interested in seeing the return of Bhaal, but if I am not sure if it is possible in practical terms. Bhaal didn`t really have many friends amongst the other Faerunian gods in the old scheme of things prior to the Time of Troubles. He was, by and large, a solitary figure, which perhaps was something of a requisite given his dominion over assassins and their art. Bane was an ally, and Bhaals superior, but the concept of friendship amongst evil gods is dubious. It was, more likely, an arrangement of convenience. Personally, I doubt Bane would go out of his way to champion the second coming of Bhaal. He has enough to be getting on with reshaping his church and reclaiming those aspects of his portfolio lost to Cyric, without undertaking a major task like resurecting Bhaal. He might advocate such an act as a means to diminish Cyrics power and sphere of influence, but given what we know about Bane, a more direct approach would likely be taken. Also, more so than any other god, Bane covets power. And is loath to share it. If, in his war against Cyric, he could take murder or any aspect of Bhaals portfolio for his own, I have no doubt whatever that he would do so. Why share and disemenate power that he could claim for his own? To devolve power is not in keeping with the nature of Bane. Given that virtually the entirety of Bhaals clergy was wiped out in Cyrics purge, or converted to the worship of the Dark Sun voluntarily, I don`t believe there are any mortals of sufficient power or influence left alive who could set in motion a plot as monumental as the resurection of a god. Maybe Hobarth could have, barely, accomplished such a feat, but he is now dead and buried in the Moonshaes. And any mortal trying to bring back Bhaal would certainly invite the wrath of Cyric and his followers as a direct challenge to the gods power and portfolio. And that is not a threat I would care to face, in all honesty. This is all of course, quite subjective. If you want Bhaal back, your imagination can concieve plenty of ways to make it happen, no doubt. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-09-03, 03:42 PM | Originally posted by )v(ethos @Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Can you tell me more of what happened to Bhaal in the game? Werent there numerous possible endings? I need more info:) What do you need to know? :) There were only three possible endings, and they weren't really too distinct from each other--at least not when it comes to the fate of Bhaal. In the game, Bhaal stays dead the whole time: 1) The character decides to stay mortal, and Bhaal's essence is locked away somewhere in the upper planes 2) A good/neutral character (depending on how you answered the questions of the Solar) accepts Bhaal's essence, and rises to become a benevolent immortal being--the game doesn't say specifically that he/she becomes a god but that is the common interpretation 3) An evil character (again based on the answers you pick for the Solar's questions) accepts Bhaal's essence rises to become an evil and feared immortal being very much like his/her father Either way Bhaal never actually came back. He had planned to, but his plans were thwarted by his "trusted" High Priestess who was preparing to keep all of his power for herself (and become a god, or something like it). |
| )v(ethos09-10-03, 07:49 AM | Ok, thx. What ending is there for the books? Or let me say it this way, what is the official story/ending for Bhaal's essence? Im trying to figure out if he can be ressurected or if only his essence can be. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-10-03, 05:42 PM | Originally posted by )v(ethos Ok, thx. You're welcome. :) What ending is there for the books? Or let me say it this way, what is the official story/ending for Bhaal's essence? Im trying to figure out if he can be ressurected or if only his essence can be. Either one is a possiblity--whatever you want to do, you can find a way to do it. Nothing is impossible in the Realms. As for the official, novel ending: Abdel chooses to stay mortal, but I don't recall exactly what is done with the essence, and I misplaced my ToB book so I can't check, sorry. :( For that answer, you could perhaps ask your question in the novels forum. But as I said, you could bring Bhaal back in full if you wanted to--nothing is impossible. You'd just need a plausible way to do it. |
| Drewzer09-10-03, 10:47 PM | anybody who played Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal knows that a new god can rise to power so it's actually wizard's choice but i would think a new bhaal or an anti-bhaal is a better choice than regular old bhaal personally i like nice guy's so i will take a good god mabye mercy to my knowlege that is a portfoilo nobody has the son of bhaal god of mercy yea i like the sound of that :angel: |
| Kuje3109-10-03, 11:25 PM | Originally posted by Scede Also, from what I've read on, I think the "Ask Richard Baker" thread he mentioned that the BG games were non-canon. Actually what he said is they are canon if you want them to be, or they are not if you don't want them to be. Since each version of FR is different from DM to DM and so you chose what is canon in your FR or your DM decides. But as far as I am concerned, officially they are canon, since there are three novels based on the games, three Dragon articles on the games, and a sourcebook that ties in with the games. Also according to the WOTC timeline for FR on the WOTC web page, the BG novel is listed as canon also. Which is no different then the Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor game. There is a novel for that game, a module for that game, and Dragon article(s) for that game. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-10-03, 11:44 PM | Kuje, if you have your ToB novel on hand, can you tell us what happens to Bhaal's essence at the end in that book? |
| Kuje3109-11-03, 12:10 AM | Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Kuje, if you have your ToB novel on hand, can you tell us what happens to Bhaal's essence at the end in that book? His essence is scattered throughout the world (actually since this took place in the Abyss and a celestial being is the one who said it would scatter the essence, I would say Bhaal's essance was scattered throughout the Multiverse instead of the "world") and Abdel is returned to Faerun as a mortal. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-11-03, 12:36 AM | Thank you, Kuje. :) There's your answer, ethos. |
| Kuje3109-11-03, 12:58 AM | Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Thank you, Kuje. :) There's your answer, ethos. Not a problem. :) |
| Mirtek09-11-03, 06:02 AM | Originally posted by Kuje31 (actually since this took place in the Abyss [...] I really hoped they would correct at least this most blatant error in the novel. |
| Kuje3109-11-03, 12:31 PM | Originally posted by Mirtek I really hoped they would correct at least this most blatant error in the novel. Your right, it should have taken place in Gehenna.... Since Bhaal didn't have a domain in the Abyss. :( Didn't catch that when I read the novels. |
| )v(ethos09-13-03, 04:36 AM | So, scattered throughout the world actually means "dessipated thoughout the world", or how am i to understand this? Is Bhaal's personality forever dead? |
| Kuje3109-13-03, 12:36 PM | Originally posted by )v(ethos So, scattered throughout the world actually means "dessipated thoughout the world", or how am i to understand this? Is Bhaal's personality forever dead? According to the novel, that is what it means, he is forever dead and his essance is scattered throughout the world. But again instead of saying the world (which I guess the author meant Toril?) I would instead say it was scattered throughout the Multiverse. But if you want him brought back, I suppose there are ways he could be returned. Have followers trying to find a way to bring his essance back together, etc...... |
| Thorik_Brightaxe09-13-03, 06:19 PM | What where Bhaal's stats anyways.... |
| Kuje3109-13-03, 06:27 PM | Originally posted by Thorik_Brightaxe What where Bhaal's stats anyways.... Gods didn't have stats in 2e. Only thier avatars did..... |
| WraithXIII09-13-03, 08:44 PM | I was thinking about the game this weekend. I have the PC's distracted with killing Bhaal-Resurrect's puppet soldiers, and I was thinking. Everyone expects Bhaal to be a man. Well, if you really want to have some fun with it, why can't the mortal form be a woman? No one would expect it and it might make for an interesting twist! |
| TheDarkestOfAngels09-13-03, 08:48 PM | I haven't read the avatar trilogy or whatever book detailed the time of troubles (which involved Bhaal, Cyric, and Kelmavor.... I think). Never once did I hear him being a woman. There's also the Baulder's Gate: The Throne of Bhaal, which depicted him as male. He wasn't human, but he was some kinda male freak. |
| Cherrn09-13-03, 11:09 PM | Do remember though that gods does not have a gender, it is only the way they choose to show themselves. Corellon shows himself both as male and female. So if you are gonna bring Bhaal back then you could easily do it with Bhaal showing himself/herself as a female instead of a male. He was a mortal once though, and he was a male back then, so it would be unlikely that he would appear as a female. About as unlikely that Bhaal returns without dying 4 secs into trying to reclaim his portfolio. But hey, it's your campaign :rolleyes: |
| Herr Doktor09-13-03, 11:17 PM | I'd say if you really wanted to have Bhaal back you'd just need to think up some new murder-themed portfolios for him. He could obtain lesser status at first, by taking more specific portfolios than murder (such as patricide and such). I'd go the route of saying that the Bhaalspawn from BG were in fact evil and became a powerful evil immortal being. All he needs is followers and worshippers. He'd be a sort of Xvim at first, but he could certainly grow in power. He'd need allies, and aspire to reclaim his father's portfolios. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-14-03, 03:10 PM | Bhaal was the old god of Death, not just murder. Either way, if he did come back, he probably couldn't have the status he once did, because both the Death and Murder portfolios now belong to Greater Gods. However, in spite of the essence being scattered, it's still possible for him (and his personality, if you wish) to come back. You just have to decide how you want to do it. Again, nothing is *impossible*. Also, gods can take any form they wish, but to my knowledge Bhaal always appeared as a male, his prefered form. His two avatars didn't look human, but that doesn't mean he couldn't appear as a human male. |
| Kvol09-15-03, 10:06 PM | Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Bhaal was the old god of Death No, that was Myrkul. Jergal is really the main man here... but his litany is perhaps unwelcome amongst the living... a fact which diminishes his power none the less. Ultimatley, we all visit him..... |
| Ryltar Swordsong09-15-03, 10:11 PM | Bhaal was the god of Death, Myrkul was the god of the Dead. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-15-03, 10:44 PM | For some reason, it is commonly believed that Myrkul was the god of Death, when he really was only the god of the Dead (among other things). Even the F&P book makes this error. A check in Faiths and Avatars confirms Bhaal's *rightful* status as the god of Death (before he died, anyway). |
| WraithXIII01-24-04, 02:30 PM | Doesn't matter now, that campaign is long dead. Thanks to those who contributed! Kudos. |