Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZeroEffect 08-06-06, 03:21 PM	Has anyone built the Simbul using updated rules for 3.5, including all of the recent books? A friend is telling me that there's no way that a Sorcerer could rival a Wizard in D&D, and I'd like to see if I can prove him wrong. I've always felt that the Simbul embodies the ultimate arcane power unleashed! :D
GothicDan 08-06-06, 04:47 PM	I agree that Wizards are inherently stronger, but that's just me.
Karsus the Mad 08-06-06, 05:21 PM	I agree that Wizards are inherently stronger, but that's just me. As well as I. Sorcerers simply lack versatility. They can be potent, if done correctly, in a specific field depending on spells chosen but they'll always lack the options of a wizard. A sorcerer may have more spells per day to cast, but this is easily achieved by a wizard as well utilzing rings of wizardry or pearls of power (or both). Taking magelord makes a wizard yet more potent than a sorc, allowing the wiz to spontaneously cast spells he's mastered (and if he has a high enough Int and has taken Spell Mastery enough, it's more spells than a sorcerer inherently can know). I've always felt that the Simbul embodies the ultimate arcane power unleashed! In novels. In mechanics however she could barely (if at all) be considered on par with...any powerful wizard.
GothicDan 08-06-06, 05:24 PM	(and if he has a high enough Int and has taken Spell Mastery enough, it's more spells than a sorcerer inherently can know). So if he uses all of those Bonus Wizard Feats... ;) He basically becomes a Wiz-Sorcerer.
Yokinobu 08-06-06, 05:48 PM	As well as I. Sorcerers simply lack versatility. Probably why The Simbul actually Wished for one more spell known. Wish there were specific rules for that in the spell text...
yarethon 08-06-06, 06:21 PM	Has anyone built the Simbul using updated rules for 3.5 NO I haven't just because when I think of that I always find it incredibly restrictive, for Simbul. I agree with the others and your friend, that wizards have the upper hand.
BrianCritchley 08-06-06, 08:54 PM	someone like thew symbul I've always figured might be best represented as a gestalt wizard/sourcerer.
Faraer 08-06-06, 09:29 PM	I don't believe the Simbul is a D&D sorcerer at all -- there's no prior indication that she doesn't prepare her spells like any other mage. For some reason I never asked Ed about it, but my hunch is she was co-opted as a poster girl for the new sorcerer class.
dragonheart 08-06-06, 09:34 PM	I generally agree taht a wizard is normally more powerful and certainly more versatile than a sorceror. I do abject to things like giving them more spells with things like rings of spell storing or wizardry and then compring the numbers to a sorceror without - any sorceror with sense is going to want these items as well and get them if at all possible and so is equally likely to have them at any given level and then we are back to them having more spells on average than a similarly equiped wizard. the problem is that the wizard has a much greater variety of spells to chose from in stocking the day's arsenal. AS for the Symbul - I also agree that she should not be stated out as a sorceror. it might be interesting to see her stated out with all her levels in wizard, magelord or archmage and not in wizard and sorceror - it would certainly make her casting level more reasonable and would make her an even greater problem for the red wizards of thay.
Aaron L 08-07-06, 10:06 AM	So if he uses all of those Bonus Wizard Feats... ;) He basically becomes a Wiz-Sorcerer. Wizerer? Wizereress?
Karsus the Mad 08-07-06, 10:10 AM	Wizerer? Wizereress? Actually, I think the most accurate term would be "arcanist".
GothicDan 08-07-06, 10:55 AM	Sorcard.
NightBreeze 08-07-06, 11:11 AM	Yep, Wizards are better. And even if i like the sorcerer class, I view the Sibul as a high level mage with lots of spell mastery. (Novel like: yes she is fury incarnate but in the 2nd edition book about the seven sisters, it's stated that she is far more rational than the common vision of her: she just encourages theese beliefs in order to scare the opponents.)
runestar 08-07-06, 11:31 AM	Well, the way the simbul hurls spells does seem more in character of a sorc than a wiz. SHe truly went berserk in "elminster in hell". :P I have always envisioned a wiz, with his many years of study and lesser spell slots to be a tad more conservative in spellcasting. Every spell he casts is the deliberate result of experience and deep consideration. Conversely, a sorc, who gets to "inherit" his magic without having to do anything to earn them would tend to be more wanton in unleashing his magics. He doesn't stop to think or plan beforehand, he just acts according to his whims. The simbul doesn't change that much, a (pre-epic) sor14/archmage2/wiz4, with a further 6 lvs of sorc and wiz each(she sure knows how to screw around with her apprentices' class advancement :rolleyes: ). Just be sure to give her the 3 bonus stat points she is missing from her ELH statblock, plus you have a few extra skill points from the now defunct scry skill you can reassign to max out her spellcraft(all the better to use epic spellcasting :P )
Derren S. 08-07-06, 12:32 PM	Wizards are only better then sorcerers under optimal conditions and/or hindsight and by artifically limiting sorcerers out of flavor reasons. (Inherent magic? That means that he can't research new spells).
Aaron L 08-07-06, 12:32 PM	Actually, I think the most accurate term would be "arcanist". Bleearrgh. I hate that awful neologism. Its the worst of D&Disms. (lots of isms. its like im an antiismist) I'm pretty full of obscure, arcane knowledge, can I be an arcanist too? :D Sorcard isnt bad. But personally I'd still address her as The Simbul, Mistress of Wizereressery. (i want to get a degree in neologismigistics) Thats a cool neologism. Its proneologismistigistical.
The Simbul 08-07-06, 05:37 PM	A friend is telling me that there's no way that a Sorcerer could rival a Wizard in D&D, and I'd like to see if I can prove him wrong.The sorcerer class does suffer at the hands of many D&D authors, mainly due to their groupthink infused notion that the sorcerer is too powerful and giving them any game feature (feat, magic item, spell, etc) that enhances their class abilities or diminishes their class weaknesses (in the same way that EVERY other class in the game can use equipment, feats, etc for those very purposes) will somehow cause meteors to fall from the sky and invariably cause the very fabric of D&D to implode on itself. Usually when sorcerers are given something in a sourcebook, it is either edited or revised with some absurd limitation (like Accelerated/Practical Metamagic in RoD) or it comes in the form of that ridiculous bloodline/heritage concept (not every sorcerer in the universe has a Solar/Dragon/Nymph/or other random MM entry as a member of their family tree), or it is simply relgated to the pages of Dragon magazine, or the personal webpages of D&D designers as content that was cut/not-included. I guess we can wait to see Complete Mage to see whether or not this trend will continue, currently we play in a world where 17th level Wizards can quicken 9th level spells with a non-artifact piece of equipment, but somehow giving sorcerers magic items that boost their known spells while worn or thar decrease metamagic casting times are somehow "unbalanced". That said your friend is misguided, and disproving his assumptions does not inherently have to rely on the statistics of the Simbul. In fact the Simbul isn’t really the best example to use in a comparison of the differences between sorcerers and wizards, mainly because; -10 of her 32 class levels are in the wizard class -she possesses many additional abilities and powers that are not derived from her race, template, or class abilities. -her stat block is specifically designed to kill arcane spellcasters and large armies of lower level combatants. I.E. nearly all of her spells involve Reflex or Fortitude saves, she has a large arsenal of large area-effect spells, and virtually any spell that is negated by a saving throw isn’t going to touch her thanks to her supernatural abilities (protection from spells). The typical wizard or sorcerer isnt built around the notion of slaying other arcanists en masse, nor do they often possess supernatural or extraordinary abilities beyond what they gain from class or prestige class levels.Has anyone built the Simbul using updated rules for 3.5, including all of the recent books? Updating the Simbul to 3.5, with carte blanche to use of all of the material that has been published since the FRCS, is really a large project, given scope of material involved. That said, when you compare Laeral Silverhand (the only Chosen created under the 3.5 rules, and the only one whose stat block was free to reference material outside of the core rules, FRCS, and ELH) to the other 3.0 Chosen, it is resoundingly evident that building a character from the ground up using all previously published materials will result in a far better stat block than one where you simply add in a few epic feats at a later date and call it “revised” (such as Elminster, Khelben, the Simbul, and others in the ELH appendix). There are an innumerous number of feats, skills, spells, and magic items that have been published since the FRCS/ELH that would certainly have been squeezed into the Simbul’s stat block if they had been available at the time, while others are simply more preferable to the ones she may current possess. If you want to see a stat block for the Simbul along those lines, then you will probably have to wait a quite a while. However, assuming that you are just looking to update her stats in the ELH to the 3.5 rules, then there really is not going to be that much a difference between them. However, there are really two steps you need to take to update her stats; the first being to correct the errors and omissions in her 3.0 statistics, and to then apply the 3.5 changes to them. PART I The Simbul’s stat block in the ELH possessed the following errors, which should be addressed as follows; AC-Her AC is incorrect given her listed DEX score, magic items, and special qualities. It should be 27 (10, +4 DEX, +10 bracers of armor, +3, supernatural abilities [ring of protection +3]). Most likely they intended to give her an additional magic item that would have boosted her AC, either directly or by increasing other stats (like DEX). SQ-Her SQ (special qualities) shorthand listing in the first paragraph should include the word “Immunities” (note that these are separate from her chosen spell immunities), and that special quality should likewise be elaborated on in the paragraphs which recur later in her stat block after skills and feats section. Saves- Her Saving Throw entry should have the following in parenthesis: “(additional +8 against spells and spell-like effects)”. This bonus is derived from her protection from spells supernatural ability. Ability scores- Her ability scores are missing three points. Her original ability score array in AD&D was STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 15, CHA 17. Her ability score adjustments for levels 1-20 were +2 to INT and +3 to CHA, and she recieves an additional +10 to CON for being a Chosen of Mystra. Her epic level ability score adjustments, gained at levels 24, 28, and 32 are missing. I personally suggest that all three be applied to CHA, in the assumption that one would later apply a +3 or +5 inherent bonus to that score via wish spells or tomes (and thus resulting in an even numbered ability score). Skills- Her skill points taken from the FRCS were not copied correctly. Her modifier for Knowledge (Aglarond history) should be +15 not +25. Nowhere in her transition to epic levels would she receive additional skill points, and she already has maxed out those she would normally be entitled to. Also, add Bluff +9 to her list of skill modifiers. Chosen (Spell) Immunities- Umm these are way off. With the exception of magic missile, it appears that her Chosen Immunities were a direct cut & paste from Storm Silverhand’s stat block, and they directly contradict her original spell immunities. Moreover circle of death doesnt affect anyone over 9 HD, you cannot be “immune” to misdirection, you cannot have multiple 1st level spell immunities, and the Simbul is already impervious to charm person and similar effects thanks to her supernatural abilities. Moreover, her original (2E) spell immunities were selected precisely to mesh with her other magical defenses and to allow her to more easily combat Red Wizards. In AD&D, the Simbul was immune to magic missile, blindness/deafness, fireball, ice storm, feeblemind, disintegrate, limited wish, maze, and wish. Obviously some of these selections would clash with her other abilities (namely her wish-granted supernatural abilities), while others are not compatible with the rules for spell immunity in 3E (maze is not subject to SR, and thus cannot be selected in conjunction with spell immunity), or they are simply redundant (being immune to the disintegrate spell is pointless when all Chosen are already immune to all forms of disintegration). Her spell immunities should read as follows; magic missile, blindness/deafness, fireball, ice storm, feeblemind, chain lightning, finger of death, flensing, meteor swarm. finger of death and meteor swarm were kept in place of limited wish and wish, given the relative rarity of those spells being used in combat in 3E and given that her various abilities are granted by wish effects (which would make immunity to those spells a bit silly). Chain Lightning replaces disintegrate given that she is already immune to the latter, and since the former is a farily common combat spell. Flensing is her 8th level spell immunity because it is one of the most favored and often used spells that the Red Wizards created, and it is particularly devastating to her as a sorcerer. Chosen Spell-like Abilities- There is nothing in the text of the ability in the template sidebar, nor in the rules for spell-like abilities as a whole, that somehow indicates that the caster level should be based off the character’s primary spellcasting class level. Immunities- this section should be added. It’s text would be the following; “Immunities: The Simbul is immune to aging, disease, disintegration, and poison. She has no need to sleep, although she must rest normally to regain arcane spells.” Supernatural abilities- The text stating that she has used wishes to allow herself know additional sorcerer spells was conspicuously removed in the ELH version; yet her sorcerer spells known still exceed what she would normally be allowed with her class levels and feats. That line of text should be reinstated. Sorcerer spells known- she has an additional 8th and 9th level spell known, yet does not have the spell knowledge epic feat. Either replace Delay Spell or Maximize Spell with Spell Knowledge, or reinstate the original text in her FRCS stat block indicating the use of wishes to add to her sorcerer repertoire. Alternatively, simply remove those spells and grant her a magic item that duplicates mindblank (such as a greenstone amulet). Equipment- The total value of the Simbul’s gear is roughly equal to what a 32nd level NPC would have, despite the fact that her actual level (thanks to her template) would be well past 36th. Add items to her equipment list that would directly enhance her spellcasting abilities, namely a Headband of Intellect, Cloak of Charisma, and Robe of the Archmagi. For the sake of character, one can rename these items with special personality-driven titles, with their game stat following in parenthesis. Epic Spells Known/Per Day- The Simbul has the Epic Spellcasting feat, but has no listing of epic spells known or epic spells per day. Of the ones listed in the ELH she would likely research, Rain of Fire, Mass Frog, and others seem to fit her personality archetype. In addition, she would also have a few epic spells of her own devising. In addition, when updating her stats to 3.5, her skill ranks in knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft should be maxed out to give her her due in epic spell slots per day, and to allow her to research and caster higher levels spells. In addition, the titles of various special qualities are incorrectly named when compared to the Chosen of Mystra template on p247 of the FRCS. Namely; “Chosen Spell-like abilities” should be called “Bonus Spells (sp)”, “Chosen Immunities” should be called “Spell Immunity (su)”, etc. PART II As for adapting her to 3.5, in addition to the changes above you would also do the following; Skills- Remove the entries of Knowledge (Aglarond history), knowledge (Rashemen history), and scry from her list of skills. Reinvest the reclaimed 40 skill points into Knowledge (arcana) Knowledge (history), knowledge (the Planes), knowledge (Thay local), and Spellcraft. Optimally, you would want to max out Knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft first given her possession of the Epic Spellcasting feat. These skills were not maxed out in the FRCS because there was no reason to have a knowledge or spellcraft modifier above +29, since in the 3.0 pre-epic rules no check with those skills would have had a DC in excess of 30. Also be sure to apply synergy bonuses appropriately. Archmage high arcana- change spell power +2 to spell power +1 Sorcerer spells- Lower the saving throw DC of evocation and transmutation spells by 4. Lower the saving throw DC of all other sorcerer spells by 3. increase caster level by 1 (spell power). Adjust spells known based on changes in spell levels during the transition. Likewise, remove known spells whose effects are redundant for her character level or in light of her other abilities (i.e. alter self is pointless when you can shapchange as a supernatural ability) Wizard spells- lower the saving throw DC of evocation and transmutation spells by 3. lower the saving throw DC of all other wizard spells by 2. increase caster level by 1 (spell power). Obviously, if you have made the noted changes to her ability scores in part I, this will invariably impact her skill modifiers, spell save DCs, spells per day, and other aspects of the stat block. Make sure when revising the stat block that you take all of those alterations into account.
The Simbul 08-07-06, 05:44 PM	P.S. a WizO aught to move this thread to "Faerunian People and Places"
The Simbul 08-08-06, 06:03 PM	As well as I. Sorcerers simply lack versatility. They can be potent, if done correctly, in a specific field depending on spells chosen but they'll always lack the options of a wizard.The "options" factor of a wizard invariably assumes that you have the time and luxury to evaluate and make use of your options. If the Simbul ambushes a Red Wizard, the results are devastating. If a Red Wizard ambushes the Simbul, the results are substancially less spectacular. You cannot catch a sorcerer off guard in the same way that you catch a wizard, and ambushes when you least expect it are precisely how wizard-wars are fought in the East.A sorcerer may have more spells per day to cast, but this is easily achieved by a wizard as well utilzing rings of wizardry or pearls of power (or both).Rings of Wizardry are more beneficial in the hands of a sorcerer, and are twice as beneficial to the Simbul than they are to any single classed mage, since they double all of your arcane spells per day for all class levels. Combine that with the fact that -she does possess the Forge Ring feat -the prerequisite spell for crafting a Ring of Wizardy is in her repertoire of known spells -there is precedent in the item creation rules for slotless (market price x2) magic items -and that there is precedent in the FR lore for the Simbul to know of and made use of such methods of ring-weaving (historical notes in Secrets of the Magister, scene descriptions in Silverfall, Ed Greenwoods replies on Candlekeep, etc) and you exponentially increase her already overwhelming spells per day output.Taking magelord makes a wizard yet more potent than a sorc, allowing the wiz to spontaneously cast spells he's mastered (and if he has a high enough Int and has taken Spell Mastery enough, it's more spells than a sorcerer inherently can know).Quite honestly the Magelord is a prestige class that is just begging to be nerfed, and you cannot compare the stat blocks of pre-published NPCs to those of NPCs who might potentially exist and might potentially have or make use of game elements that have been published after the stat blocks of said NPCs. But yes, the Mage Lord is ridiculous. In mechanics however she could barely (if at all) be considered on par with...any powerful wizard.Most "powerful wizards" in Faerun dont have hitpoints that exceed those of a standard 30th level NPC fighter, saving throws (against spells) that exceed those of a standard 30th level NPC Monk, or shapeshifting abilities that exceed those of a standard 30th level NPC Druid. Moreover, none of those noteworthy traits come from active spells or magic items, but natural, extraordinary, and supernatural special qualities..which is to drive the point that they cannot be dispelled. Moreover the spells per day capacity of most powerful wizards in Faerun are not sustainable enough to outlast such a high-HP, high-saves character in a battle of "lets cast save for half damage spells until one of us dies or rolls a 1" epic battles. By contrast, the Simbul does have the spell capacity output to endure a cast at half damage or cast til we roll a 1 battle.
The Simbul 08-08-06, 06:10 PM	I don't believe the Simbul is a D&D sorcerer at all -- there's no prior indication that she doesn't prepare her spells like any other mage. For some reason I never asked Ed about it, but my hunch is she was co-opted as a poster girl for the new sorcerer class. With the information on her in The Seven Sisters, you could easily find quotes or statements that could lead you in either direction. However, the main point is that she is a sorcerer and a wizard, thus her current stats do not overwhelmingly conflict with past statements about her. The only real sticking point in making her primarily a sorcerer is in the realm of high level spells that she should readily know and have access to, especially when it comes to many of the rare spells where she is one of the few mages who knows them (Alamanther's Return, Laeral's Crowning Touch, Simbul's Skeletal Deliquescense, Elminster's Evasion, as well as many many other spells that have not been converted). But in that regard they managed to at least patch it up by allowing her to wish for additional known spells and to use wishes to interchange them.
yarethon 08-08-06, 06:59 PM	If the Simbul ambushes a Red Wizard, the results are devastating. If a Red Wizard ambushes the Simbul, the results are substancially less spectacular. You cannot catch a sorcerer off guard in the same way that you catch a wizard, and ambushes when you least expect it are precisely how wizard-wars are fought in the East. I agree with that.. sorcerers after rest .. are always ready to combat Rings of Wizardry are more beneficial in the hands of a sorcerer I really fail to see that... A wizard with a ring of wizardry and a sorcerer with the same ring of wizardry, both on the same levels... THe wizard has an advantage... of course I am supposing both had the time to prepare themselves to whatever challenge they may face...
lightcwu 08-08-06, 07:17 PM	There is absoulutly NO reason to go through twenty lvls of Sorc. If you can find a Prestige class that continues your spell progression Lore Master, any of the guild Wizard classes, hell go into anything just DON'T STAY IN SORC. The only reason to take more then one lvl in sorcerer is because you can't Prestige out of it yet.
The Simbul 08-08-06, 08:15 PM	There is absoulutly NO reason to go through twenty lvls of Sorc. If you can find a Prestige class that continues your spell progression Lore Master, any of the guild Wizard classes, hell go into anything just DON'T STAY IN SORC. The only reason to take more then one lvl in sorcerer is because you can't Prestige out of it yet.No prestige class thus far published, be it the Loremaster, Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, or any other for that matter are a perfect fit for the Simbul. Unless we get an official "Mystic Theurge treatment" of the sorcerer/wizard multiclass combination, and unless that PrC is generic enough in name and fluff to fit any character background in any campaign setting, then I do not think that simply adding a prestige class simply because it will giver her Lore, Skill Focus, or Tymora's Smile as a class feature is a viable reason to do so.
Purple Dragon Knight 08-08-06, 09:13 PM	Bah! redesign her completely I say! Give her three levels of cleric, with the PGtoF Mystra domains that are uber powerful (dhtbifom...); Give her three levels of wizard; Give her about 10 levels of Mystic Theurge; Give her 3 levels of Rogue; Give her 10 levels of Arcane Trickster; and finally Give her 10 levels of Dweomerkeeper. Feats: give everything that's related to Spell Mastery and/or that reduces the need for arcane preparation... Total: Divine caster level: 13 Arcane caster level: 33 Total Character Level: 39 Add the Chosen Template ECL boost (+4 or +5, if I recall...) Total Effective Character Level: 43 or 44, thereabouts... as it should be. Then, compare against Elminster, and if El is lower than that, boost him liberally, until he is about 6 or 7 higher than that. Sorry, but those Epic Handbook El and Simbul entries felt like raw mutton on a dried bun to me: these two characters are the most powerful gooddies in magic-rich Faerun, and should get a major spa treatment (read: should get boosted until they have might to spare even when faced by dudes such as Klauth or Larloch, and they shouldn't even sweat if a bus full of sarruk towing a camping RV full of phaerimm happens to roll by... ;) ) PS: I LOOOOOOOOOVED the way El's power was featured/displayed in El's Daughter, and was even frightened for a second that he might tip to the dark side there... :P
runestar 08-09-06, 06:02 AM	Yeah, you could do that, but that would clash with the novel version of the simbul. Going by her stats, she is just a very high lv spellcaster, and has exhibited no special class features beyond her tendency to spam attack spells like some tricked out diablo2 sorc build, so there is really no precedent to give her access to all those prcs. I think plain sorc lvs are good enough. Only chance would be that I might swap out some of her existing feats for autoquicken and possibly multispell, but seeing as to how she gets her sor21 spellcasting capability at lv25 earliest(she was a sor14/archmage2/wiz4 prior to becoming an epic character, and assuming she did not alternate her sorc and wiz lvs), she can just squeeze them in. :) Also, it is worth noting that simbul's synostodweomer is now a 7th lv spell, not the 9th lv spell as mentioned in her FRCS/ELH statblock. :P There is absoulutly NO reason to go through twenty lvls of Sorc. If you can find a Prestige class that continues your spell progression Lore Master, any of the guild Wizard classes, hell go into anything just DON'T STAY IN SORC. The only reason to take more then one lvl in sorcerer is because you can't Prestige out of it yet. No reason optimisation wise, I suppose, but flavour wise, there is absolutely NO reason for her to enter a prc instead of continuing her sorc progression. ;)
Karsus the Mad 08-09-06, 07:13 PM	The "options" factor of a wizard invariably assumes that you have the time and luxury to evaluate and make use of your options. A wizard at least has such options. If the Simbul ambushes a Red Wizard, the results are devastating. If a Red Wizard ambushes the Simbul, the results are substancially less spectacular. You cannot catch a sorcerer off guard in the same way that you catch a wizard, and ambushes when you least expect it are precisely how wizard-wars are fought in the East. I fail to see how condemning my IF of a generic comparison of two base classes and the currently available options open to them and your own IF of a specific, mechanical, and clearly limited NPC ambushing a non-existant NPC provides any point you desired to make. Rings of Wizardry are more beneficial in the hands of a sorcerer, and are twice as beneficial to the Simbul than they are to any single classed mage, since they double all of your arcane spells per day for all class levels. Again, this is something I fail to see. How does the ability to cast the same limited number of spells more often compare to the ability to cast yet more different spells to fit any situation? If a fireball fails the first few times, how is it better to be able to cast it yet more times? Do explain. More of the same spells has the same effect as those spells. A wizard has the option of preparing different spells, a sorcerer does not. I do not see this as being an advantage for an extremely limited spellcaster. Quite honestly the Magelord is a prestige class that is just begging to be nerfed, and you cannot compare the stat blocks of pre-published NPCs to those of NPCs who might potentially exist and might potentially have or make use of game elements that have been published after the stat blocks of said NPCs. Regardless of it's need to be nerfed, it is a viable option for wizards. I care not whether it makes sorcerers yet more inferior. I stated a fact, nothing more. I can and have compared them. Go back up to the IF statement. Do not use your own IF to condemn someone elses IF. But yes, the Mage Lord is ridiculous. We do at least agree with that;) Most "powerful wizards" in Faerun dont have hitpoints that exceed those of a standard 30th level NPC fighter, saving throws (against spells) that exceed those of a standard 30th level NPC Monk, or shapeshifting abilities that exceed those of a standard 30th level NPC Druid. Moreover, none of those noteworthy traits come from active spells or magic items, but natural, extraordinary, and supernatural special qualities..which is to drive the point that they cannot be dispelled. Moreover the spells per day capacity of most powerful wizards in Faerun are not sustainable enough to outlast such a high-HP, high-saves character in a battle of "lets cast save for half damage spells until one of us dies or rolls a 1" epic battles. By contrast, the Simbul does have the spell capacity output to endure a cast at half damage or cast til we roll a 1 battle. I never said Most powerful now did I? ;) I said any powerful wizard. Her HP means litterally nothing, since a wizard of an equal level could cast a simple epic spell that deals a maximized damage beyond anything she can hope to even survive, and vice versa. HP, saves, etc are meaningless at the levels she should be participating. That of course is just my opinion.
Purple Dragon Knight 08-09-06, 11:01 PM	Yeah, you could do that, but that would clash with the novel version of the simbul. Going by her stats, she is just a very high lv spellcaster, and has exhibited no special class features beyond her tendency to spam attack spells like some tricked out diablo2 sorc build, so there is really no precedent to give her access to all those prcs. I think plain sorc lvs are good enough. Only chance would be that I might swap out some of her existing feats for autoquicken and possibly multispell, but seeing as to how she gets her sor21 spellcasting capability at lv25 earliest(she was a sor14/archmage2/wiz4 prior to becoming an epic character, and assuming she did not alternate her sorc and wiz lvs), she can just squeeze them in. :) Also, it is worth noting that simbul's synostodweomer is now a 7th lv spell, not the 9th lv spell as mentioned in her FRCS/ELH statblock. :P No reason optimisation wise, I suppose, but flavour wise, there is absolutely NO reason for her to enter a prc instead of continuing her sorc progression. ;)Also, a reason why I gave a few divine spellcaster levels to her is that she would gain access to Anyspell (which is a spell on one of Mystra's domain). That spell could 'account' for some of the sorcerous behaviour she's displayed in novels... And by the way: nothing stops a regular wizard to foam at the mouth and be 'fierce' while casting... ;)
Ardashir 08-10-06, 07:47 PM	No offense, but does the Simbul (or any of the other Chosen) even _need_ to be fully statted out? I always saw them better used as plot elements or patrons (and if they're shapeshifted or in disguise you won't even know it's them). They're just too darned powerful for most adventuring purposes, but great for roleplaying. And as far as the Simbul goes, I always had the idea that the only things you would say around here were "Yes, ma'am." ;)
Krash 08-10-06, 08:16 PM	Ardashir, you da man! :clap: -- George Krashos
Old Sage 08-10-06, 09:34 PM	No offense, but does the Simbul (or any of the other Chosen) even _need_ to be fully statted out? I always saw them better used as plot elements or patrons (and if they're shapeshifted or in disguise you won't even know it's them). They're just too darned powerful for most adventuring purposes, but great for roleplaying.Agreed. Mystra's Chosen should not have received stats. It's far enough the Divine Champions of other Realms deities receiving stats in 3e -- but not the Chosen of Mystra. As I said before... both here and at Candlekeep, Mystra's Chosen ARE different in both form and function from the Chosen of other deities, and their stats, or lack of them, should reflect that difference.
Faraer 08-10-06, 10:01 PM	The rot started, of course, back in Dragon #110 when all those letters led to the first write-up of Elminster.
Ardashir 08-11-06, 11:47 AM	Well, I will admit -- I am One of those guys who likes seeing in-game stats for certain characters: "So that's what s/he's really like!" -- but NPCs, all NPcs but especially such big-name ones as Elminster and the Simbul, should be capable of whatever they need to be to keep the game or plot moving. Personally, I'd keep the big names far, far away on most occasions. They've got their own lives and problems, after all, and even the villains have better things to do than splatter the poor PCs.
HVulpes 08-11-06, 03:29 PM	You could try Sean K. Reynolds' homerules from his Opinion on the first three chapters of the PH. (Under RPGs and subheading Opinions and Reviews). His rules include letting Sorcerers have Diplomacy, Intimdate and Use Magic Item as class skills, switching a single spell each sorcerer level, Sorcerer gaining a bonus Metamagic Feat every five levels starting at first (He let Wizards replace their bonus feat each five levels with only Item creation Feats and other non-Metamagic feats. He feals that Sorcerers with their innate magic would be more skilled in twisting spells for more effect and Wizards with their studies of magic would be skilled in creating magic items), and Sorcerer do not have their times increased when using metamagic feats. He felt that the sorcerer was hosed in creation and wrote these rules to make it more enjoy about. It might make a more interesting Simbul or your own Sorcerer/ess character. Just a suggestion.
yarethon 08-11-06, 04:17 PM	I also agree was that what i meant to say n my first post in this thread, but my limited by my english ( and patience at the time). :)
Yokinobu 08-11-06, 04:44 PM	I don't often agree with Mr. Reynolds opinions, but in this case those are pretty good ideas. In campaigns that I run, all sorcerors basically get the eschew materials feat for free. I look at wizards needing material components as the substitute for not being able to use magic innately, and sorcerors shouldn't require such things when there magic comes "natural". Doesn't really make the sorceror much better, but since we were on sorceror changes I figured I'd throw in a houseruling. I think other people have used the same rule. One website used the idea that all sorcerors naturally could eschew ALL non-costly components, including somantic and verbal, which would make their spells more like spell-like abilities, or psionics(because they still required concentration). Being able to cast spells while wearing armor made them alot better, but like psions, I don't think they got any armor proficiencies in that house-rule.
ArnimThayer 08-11-06, 04:51 PM	In the original Grey Box set (or was it FR7 Hall of Heroes?), they had an adjustment table for NPCs. You roled percentle dice for a result and either added or subtracted levels from the stat block based on the idea that legends and ballads had either over-estimated or under-estimated the abilities of any given NPC. I too think most NPCs should be only loosely fleshed out or stated if they are to be used in Elminster/Simbul fashion. Gandalf certainly loses his appeal once stated :D .
GothicDan 08-11-06, 10:47 PM	I just combine the Sorcerer and Wizard classes into one and then let you customize the single arcane caster class's abilities based on their training and magical societies and traditions. :)
runestar 08-12-06, 12:40 AM	I too think most NPCs should be only loosely fleshed out or stated if they are to be used in Elminster/Simbul fashion. Gandalf certainly loses his appeal once stated . Especially when he is pegged as a 5th lv wizard if you stat him according to the abilities he displayed in the story... ;)
Ardashir 08-12-06, 01:25 PM	You could try Sean K. Reynolds' homerules from his Opinion on the first three chapters of the PH. (Under RPGs and subheading Opinions and Reviews). His rules include letting Sorcerers have Diplomacy, Intimdate and Use Magic Item as class skills, switching a single spell each sorcerer level, Sorcerer gaining a bonus Metamagic Feat every five levels starting at first (He let Wizards replace their bonus feat each five levels with only Item creation Feats and other non-Metamagic feats. He feals that Sorcerers with their innate magic would be more skilled in twisting spells for more effect and Wizards with their studies of magic would be skilled in creating magic items), and Sorcerer do not have their times increased when using metamagic feats. He felt that the sorcerer was hosed in creation and wrote these rules to make it more enjoy about. It might make a more interesting Simbul or your own Sorcerer/ess character. Just a suggestion. Those sound like some good idea, Hvulpes. Thanks for posting.
Ardashir 08-14-06, 12:00 PM	BTW, can someone please post a link to Mister Reyonolds' article about sorcerers? It would be a BIG help right now -- thanks.
HVulpes 08-14-06, 12:14 PM	Trying to avoid the issue with no-links in thread it's his name Sean K Reynolds (all one word) dot com. Once in you go under RPG heading and then the subheading Opinions and Reviews, then the articule is an opinion of the first three chapters of the Player's Handbook. I hope that helps without violating rules. I think it is only no direct linkes in threads, not indirect links.
Ardashir 08-14-06, 06:30 PM	Trying to avoid the issue with no-links in thread it's his name Sean K Reynolds (all one word) dot com. Once in you go under RPG heading and then the subheading Opinions and Reviews, then the articule is an opinion of the first three chapters of the Player's Handbook. I hope that helps without violating rules. I think it is only no direct linkes in threads, not indirect links. Thanks.