Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 08-20-07, 01:15 AM	From Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9775): Q. Is there anything happening to Mystra or the Weave? A. The 2E to 3E change was one done on a retconning basis (i.e. "it was always like that") - they've decided that the 3E to 4E change wll be more in line with th 1E to 2E change. An in-game story/explanation will showcase the rule changes. As to what this explanation will be, it will be a catastrophe called the "Spellplague". It was noted that 'Expedition to Undermountain' and what happened to Halaster was a foreshadowing of this event - Halaster was trying to do something about it, but failed - badly. It was also noted that something akin to this "catastrophe" had happened before and had been mentioned in the 1E FR boxed set. Q. Will the Spellplague affect the ability for campaigns to be set earlier in the timeline? A. You have the option to introduce the effects of the Spellplague earlier. Q. The Spellplague or the ToT - which is the worse RSE? A. The Spellplague can be seen as related to the ToT and something of a ripple effect. Not worse or better, just different - but Waterdeep won't be sinking anytime soon. However, some places will get "played with". Q. Will there be a novel series to explain the Spellplague? A. Not really. The Spellplague is a realms-wide event and story elements in relation t it will be featured in many products and the DI. Alright, so first things first.... who has the 1E FR boxed set? Does anyone have any idea what the Spellplague could entail? Also, what do you all HOPE it entails and what changes would you LIKE to see (lore wise) in Faerun? This could include things that are retconned as well as canonical happenings between the current date and 1785 DR (starting date of FR 4E).
Meldread 08-20-07, 01:50 AM	Alright, I am going to state up front I have no clue what the Spellplague will involve aside from the fact its the explanation of why 4E magic works differently. I am really interested in how magic will work in 4E and hope they step away from the spells per day system, and go for something similar to Psionics using a point pool... but I digress... Here is what I would like to see happen: Mystra makes a play for the Shadow Weave in an attempt to preempt Shar from making a play on the magic and spells portfolio (effectively splitting it into two parts - Weave Magic and Shadow Weave Magic, Weave Spells and Shadow Weave Spells). However, what Mystra did not realize was that Shar intended for her to do this all along and her actions were simply to goad her into walking into a trap. Shar 'allows' Mystra to absorb the Shadow Weave into her portfolio list, but unfortunately for her it is unstable with the Weave. Shar basically 'infected' the Shadow Weave with something that makes Mystra become seriously ill. As a result of the illness Mystra begins to lapse into insanity. It is during this period where things 'get played with'. At this point Elminster has recovered from his trip to Hell and whatnot and is just now getting caught up with the most recent happenings. He sets out to 'save' Mystra as magic on Toril goes bonkers. The Simbul and some of the other Chosen team up to perform epic battles, blah, blah... defeat some powerful Sharrans, manage to uncover a way to cure Mystra from her insanity... However, the victory is bittersweet. As Mystra is cured she realizes that the taint of the Shadow Weave will slowly begin to infect her once again. The Shadow Weave and the Weave by this time have merged into one single Weave and the 'taint' is throughout. With the aid of all her Chosen and Azoth (and with instructions from Ao) they work to solve the problem. Sadly, solving the problem will require lots of self-sacrifice. It will require Mystra to absorb the taint of the Shadow Weave into herself and end her life... this in turn will result in the death of her Chosen and Azoth. They decide that the situation is serious enough to take the risk and then proceed. Mystra does her thing, takes her life, Azoth dies as do all of her Chosen except Elminster who for some inexplicable reason survives. Perhaps it is due to his age and connection with the Weave - maybe he retained some 'pure' and untainted portion within himself. In either case Elminster rises to take Azoth's place as Magister leaving behind mortality. The Weave, however, has changed dramatically. With guidance from Ao during the ritual a small fraction of Mystra's consciousness survived. Ao decided that magic on Toril was too important to leave within the hands of the gods who are notoriously unreliable. As a result the Weave, has become a semi-conscious construct outside the domain of the gods, obeying only the orders given to it by Ao. The Weave retains the ability to heal and repair itself, as well as to defend itself against attack. Elminster effectively becomes its guardian - not its master - with the single goal to protect those who would bring harm to it. He also becomes the new ruler of Mystra's former Divine Realm and picks up Azoth's old portfolios as well as 'Guardian of the Weave'. The Spells portion manages to be snatched up by Oghma. Back on Toril during this event thousands upon thousands of powerful Wizards (all who are 15+) have died over the course of the events. A few might have escaped by going to other planes, but the vast majority are dead. Some of the more iconic NPC's are either on demiplanes they've created (and no longer have their focus solely on Faerun) or have been retconned down to be level 20 or lower. The setting as a whole moves away from insanely powerful world shattering characters and toward characters with a more regionally based outlook. This in turn has an effect on limiting any RSE's to a small region such as a city or part of a nation. Also during this time current plots have been brought to their logical conclusions and new ones have been created. In effect the Forgotten Realm's will have its edges smoothed over and a new polish on it - making it as if it were brand new. The setting as a whole has things brought back down to earth, with a focus of higher level characters leaving the Realms to explore the planes. Some of the more iconic NPCs such as Larloch will have left Faerun in favor of a demiplane of his creation whereas others who have little to no iconic status simply die or disappear to places unknown.
rjfras 08-20-07, 02:15 AM	Alright, I am going to state up front I have no clue what the Spellplague will involve aside from the fact its the explanation of why 4E magic works differently. I am really interested in how magic will work in 4E and hope they step away from the spells per day system, and go for something similar to Psionics using a point pool... but I digress... Vancian magic system – there’s an element of that we held on to, but it’s a much smaller fraction of their overall power. A wizard will never completely run out of spells. They can run out of their “mordenkainen’s sword, however”. All characters have at will, per encounter, and per day uses they will have to keep track of. No more mages pulling out crossbows. You will never be penalized for doing what you do best – your clearly defined roles. There will be a big event in the Realms soon, called the Spellplague. Rich says it won't leave a corner of the Realms untouched.
Zanan 08-20-07, 04:46 AM	Sounds great, eh? And it looks as if the wizards are the forerunners when it comes to benefits ... Don't we all like that trickle of information here and there? And it's still about 365 days to go. BTW, what is the Vancian magic system? Sources et al.
Flecha 08-20-07, 07:24 AM	A "Vancian nagic system" is referred to one like D&D's, where spells are memorized as "potential energy" and then are "discharged", and utterly lost from memory. The name comes from Jack Vance, renowned fantasy and science fiction author who "developed" such magic system in his "Dying Earh" series of books, from where were taken as such by Gygax and Arneson for D&D. I have the first edition boxed set of FR, though I never read it... :blush: I'm going to look into it to see what I find. With the pass of time I'm more and more dissapointed with D&D, not to mention the "business policies" of WotC, and I suffer watching my beloved realms re-engineered once and again, making it less consistent and believable. Yeah, I know this new D&D looks promising, but I feel it's just another empty promise, and I'd wish more than before to play the Realms with a different system... :weep:
Alleran 08-20-07, 09:25 AM	I'm a bit unsure about this Spellplague or whatever it is, so I'll reserve judgement. At the outset, though, I'm already somewhat disgruntled with the directions being taken in the Realms, so whatever this is, it had better be good.
ShadezofDis 08-20-07, 10:06 AM	:nonono: I can't imagine them doing anything that will leave the Realms feeling like the Realms and not be incredibly stupid. I really wish I could see this as something other than a bid to sell a bunch of PHBs and DMGs. Further, 3.5 came out just 4 years ago (and by the time 4th hits the stores it'll be roughly 5). That's just. . . :banghead: Back to the Spellplague, I just don't have any confidence in the WoTC team to put together such a massive event without making it utterly stupid. I really hope I'm just being cynical but I just don't think they have the ability to put together something coherent.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-20-07, 02:01 PM	I'm cynical myself...but only because I've been cynical for a while now. These drastic changes have been happening non-stop for so long--so to be honest, I was expecting something like this. I'm with Faraer--the Realms is undergoing too much "plastic surgery".
Occam 08-20-07, 03:19 PM	Alright, I am going to state up front I have no clue what the Spellplague will involve aside from the fact its the explanation of why 4E magic works differently... Here is what I would like to see happen: Mystra makes a play for the Shadow Weave... However, what Mystra did not realize was that Shar intended for her to do this all along and her actions were simply to goad her into walking into a trap... Mystra begins to lapse into insanity... Sadly, solving the problem will require lots of self-sacrifice. It will require Mystra to absorb the taint of the Shadow Weave into herself and end her life... this in turn will result in the death of her Chosen and Azoth... Mystra does her thing, takes her life, Azoth dies as do all of her Chosen except Elminster who for some inexplicable reason survives... Elminster rises to take Azoth's place as Magister leaving behind mortality... Ao decided that magic on Toril was too important to leave within the hands of the gods who are notoriously unreliable. As a result the Weave, has become a semi-conscious construct outside the domain of the gods... Back on Toril during this event thousands upon thousands of powerful Wizards (all who are 15+) have died over the course of the events... The setting as a whole moves away from insanely powerful world shattering characters and toward characters with a more regionally based outlook... Also during this time current plots have been brought to their logical conclusions and new ones have been created. In effect the Forgotten Realm's will have its edges smoothed over and a new polish on it - making it as if it were brand new. Wow, now that sounds cool. I like how it retains the iconic presence of Elminster while effectively taking him out of active circulation, and makes interactions with the Weave less personal (which has always seemed a recipe for chaos). Of course, it'll probably be nothing like this, but it does seem to address certain issues that many have with FR.
Lord Karsus 08-20-07, 03:56 PM	I'm with Faraer--the Realms is undergoing too much "plastic surgery". -That is a very good way to look at it. Let's just hope that Dr. Nick isn't doing that surgery...
Lord Zeb 08-20-07, 04:02 PM	My pet theory is similar to the above... Mystra makes a play for the Shadow Weave, is infected leading to all other Weave users impacted by a Spellplague. The oldest and wisest of them recognize it from something that happened decades before and remove themselves to the Outer Planes. Elminster hides out at Ed's house, Larloch hits Sigil, Szass Tam creates a demi-plane to hide out. The rest are infected and start dying off... Mystra's Chosen band together and sacrifice themselves to cure Mystra. It works partially, but results in yet another Mystra forming - a LN Mystryl for the newest Age. Azuth gives his divine essence to aid the transformation. Post-plague, magic just works differently. Elminster, Larloch and Szass Tam individually research epic spells to attune themselves to the new Weave prior to entering Faerun again. As they step in they are in stasis for 9 months and a day. Afterwards, they are among the few high level wizards left on the continent. Shar is dismayed that her gambit of defeating Mystra didn't work out, but as the Patron of Loss decides to sulk in her cavern and scheme some more. She becomes an Intermediate Deity with the loss of the Shadow Weave. The new Mystryl is very similar to Boccob of Oerth, uncaring of how the magic is used, just ensuring that it is not harmed and follows the law.
Meldread 08-20-07, 04:52 PM	Sometimes plastic surgery isn't always a bad thing, and personally I am of the opinion that the Realm's need it badly. Right now it looks like it has suffered from a horrible train wreck - it has epic characters out of the wazoo - it has suffered RSE after RSE... the Realm's has pushed believability to the limit and is simply becoming absurd. The world needs someone to smooth things out, get rid of the rough edges, and wash away the countless absurdities. It needs a fresh clean face. Frankly, I don't care what they have to do to accomplish it, but the Realm's needs a reboot... badly... and Wizard's needs to learn from the mistakes that caused the current set of problems. (Which is mostly laid at the feet of the novels.) I hope the upcoming Grand History of the Realm's is able to take all retconning that will happen into consideration. With luck it will also give us insight into what we will see when we get the 4E FRCS.
Meldread 08-20-07, 05:08 PM	Zeb- I doubt losing the Shadow Weave will weaken Shar. It isn't part of her portfolio and it has so few users that she doesn't get a serious boost from it. If anything she might lose one divine rank, but that is still more than enough to keep her a Greater Deity. If Shar lost that much power in one swoop she'd be dead simply due to the lack of allies. Personally, I would like to see the Weave become something independent of the gods. It is simply too powerful and too important to be left in their hands. Magic is just too important to the world for a single being to have so much control over it, and if it is a deity like Boccob why not simply give it to Oghma? I have always been in favor of him having the spells portfolio; it just makes sense because he is the keeper of knowledge. I hope whatever happens that they either give us a way to access magic through multiple weaves (like it is currently) or they take it away from the gods entirely. Making the Weave function as a semi-intelligent construct that can repair, heal and defend itself should be sufficient. The whole "you can only use the Weave to access magic" reminds me too much of: One Weave to rule them all, One Weave to find them, One Weave to bring them all and in chains bind them!
MarkusTay63 08-20-07, 06:09 PM	I posted this on another thread, but this is my take on things, based on what little info has been leaked - Again, where did you get this information?Just a hunch, but when you put all the pieces together, it makes sense. First, A quote from CK - Q. Will some of the 'staple NPCs' of the Realms be replaced in the 4E transition? A. Yes, because the Realms is a living world. There will be a changing of the guard but Drizzt and Elminster will still be around. Now, the Spellplague is supposed to explain why magic is different in 4e - that means it must be both devastating and world-changing. It is obviously some sort of 'magical illness', and it has been stated that it has OCCURRED BEFORE. It has also been said that the Spellplague is what Halaster was trying to prevent when he was killed - what was Halaster's #1 attribute that he was known for? He was insane.... :devil: It has been hinted that the Spellplague actually made a 'cameo appearance' in the 1e FRC, but was well hidden. The best thing someone has come up with is this (so far ) - on page 36 of the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms we see the start of the Recent News and Rumours of the Realms. In Ches, the 4th bullet point is about the Mad Witch of the Thunder Peaks, Marchayn of Archendale, who is found mindless and drooling and repeatedly saying "Dove! Dove! Smashed the black star .... Dove!" Someone else insane, who obviously has been caught in some sort of 'magical backlash'. Halaster is very, VERY old, and may very well be the only survivor from the original "Spellplague" - A magical illness that only effects spellcasters, and causes them to lose their minds, probably a little more each time they cast a spell (this was done in the WoT series, when a man touches Saidin). Since he was only recently cured of his illness in EiH, he would be the ONE MAGE that would want to do everything in his power to stop it. So put it all together - an age-old plague that wipes out spellcasters - ALL spellcasters - by driving them nuts with their own magic. The more powerful you are, the more likely you are to succumb to it. Elminster is the ONLY mage we have been promised to see again in 4e, which means either Mystra Protected him, he left for an alternate plane (which is just like him), or he has 'given up' magic altogether, and will only be a "wise old sage" in 4e. We shall see, but bear in mind that they want EVERYONE to restart their campaigns, so they WILL be zeroing everything out. It makes loads of sense, the ten year gap leaves them plenty of time to wrap-up any current plots, and everything will be basck to square one, with mostly low-powered NPCs, so the PCs can be the 'Heroic Archtypes' they were meant to be, and not overshadowed by the backdrop of the setting. This 'could' be a good thing, if done right... but after seeing them drop the ball so many times I don't have high hopes. :(
Paix 08-20-07, 06:16 PM	Our group prefers the tactical play offered by the magic selection per day, as offered by the main spell casting classes, so something like what is described above is not enticing. Further, I have no trouble with the Shadow weave. I found it something worthy of Shar her and endless ploys; a source of power with a price. My impression is that it was more of a victim of people wanting it to be vastly more powerful than traditional wizardry while the mechanics of it obviously tried to introduce a balance, leading to rabid screams of derision from annoyingly vocal 'aficionados'. The connection between the weave and the 'one ring' has me lost; there are many things that are one of a kind and do not evoke that particular item... Why a change is game mechanics needs to have an underlying major event to explain it, is also something I do not understand. To explain discrepancies in novel descriptions? Then perhaps novels should be sold with rules summaries.
Realms Walker 08-20-07, 06:45 PM	I come at this from two angles. 1. The realms is a train wreck at the moment. You cant step out of a Tavern without Tripping over a Chosen of Mystra, Good Dark elf Ranger etc etc or a Elven high this or that. The realms seems to have droves of all of the above bleh! 2. The original realms used to have a frontier feel. You felt like if you traveled to another city or town it was dangerous. If you went into a forest you wouldnt see another soul unless they were put there by your DM of course lol. Now though towns are everywhere and there are PCs and NPC's under every rock. I like the clean slate that this hopefully will setup. I like MASSIVE change when I feel what is being changed has already gone horribly wrong. Kill off Drizzt and the lot of em and let the PC's take the spotlight. What I don't like about all of the above though is quite simple though. I am tired of Buying this handbook or that guide. Wizards originally put out its books at a decent price to attract people to the new D&D as they saw it and when people started to buy them they not only jacked the Price but also put out books full of Garbage! Game lore has suffered greatly and has been determined by Novels of all things! I look forward to the change but my shelves are loaded with books and cant take much more and my wallet is in the same position.. I hope they go a smart route and dont do like they have done in the past.
Dark Wizard 08-21-07, 12:31 AM	Heh, unfortunately this isn't the first time the FR has gone under the knife. It had a lopsided set of implants put in for the ToT, all at a tender young age since the setting was released only a few years before the ToT. Then numerous somewhat smaller jobs done since them. Collagen from someone's ass added as the other sub-setting continents. Many nips and tucks with an occasional sledge hammer to the face in the form of lesser RSEs. The Spellplague might be the dozy, a full body and face lift with major reconstructive surgery in mind, maybe some laser skin repair and a throw in a nice artificial tan for that leathery orange look so popular nowadays. Remember, too much plastic surgery (especially in the hands of a bad surgeon) could mean the Jacko look. That is far closer to the destiny of the Realms now than [insert most current hot celebrity] given the extensive publication history of the Realms and the obsession the management has with making the setting under go 'plastic surgery.'
PharaunMizzrym 08-21-07, 01:23 AM	Heh, unfortunately this isn't the first time the FR has gone under the knife. It had a lopsided set of implants put in for the ToT, all at a tender young age since the setting was released only a few years before the ToT. Then numerous somewhat smaller jobs done since them. Collagen from someone's ass added as the other sub-setting continents. Many nips and tucks with an occasional sledge hammer to the face in the form of lesser RSEs. The Spellplague might be the dozy, a full body and face lift with major reconstructive surgery in mind, maybe some laser skin repair and a throw in a nice artificial tan for that leathery orange look so popular nowadays. Remember, too much plastic surgery (especially in the hands of a bad surgeon) could mean the Jacko look. That is far closer to the destiny of the Realms now than [insert most current hot celebrity] given the extensive publication history of the Realms and the obsession the management has with making the setting under go 'plastic surgery.' So will we be seeing the Forgotten Realms on Doctor 90210 or Nip Tuck? :plotting:
Dark Wizard 08-21-07, 02:14 AM	A crossover 20th anniversary made-for-cable TV movie special.
Meldread 08-21-07, 02:23 AM	Dark Wizard- Too funny, but true. However, I do agree with the basic premise behind the idea - IMO the setting as it currently stands looks more like Jacko than anything else. Something must be done to fix it. There is a possibility that it could be made worse, but really at this point... how much worse could the setting get? The Novels seem to be in a competition to see how much damage they can inflict upon the setting, so something MUST be done to stop them. I just hope WotC learns from the mistakes of the past, and in the future they set all RSE Novels in the past, and keep all current novels small and regionally based. I also hope that they force the authors to step away from the uber character complexes they have and focus more on the REAL character's of the Realm's. I also hope that they release ALL source books for 4E set at the same date. If there is a 5E (...if? more like when...) they can then incorporate all the changes into the setting retroactively. That at least gives those of us who want to ignore certain things the opportunity. Really, that is one of the benefits of getting rid of all the uber characters. It allows those of us who want to make changes to the setting to do so without seriously compromising the integrity of the lore. Currently there are so many uber characters that getting rid of one or making a change sets off a chain reaction that ripples throughout the entire setting. That makes it very easy to "break" things by making them inconsistant. Each uber character has required counters and balances to ensure that they do not dominate the world, so more uber characters were created, that means when you get rid of one it gives another free reign. With lower powered characters the effect is mostly regionally based and we can easily find a way to deal with the problem.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 02:24 AM	I think it's starting to look more like a flesh golem, all pasted together with stitches... or perhaps a Serpentflesh golem, or a Demonfleshgolem... Hmmm... which is ugliest? :confused:
Dark Wizard 08-21-07, 03:24 AM	Actually I think while both of us want to see the Realms do well and be well, we disagree on the extent of the damage or the means to 'fix' things. I wrote a post on the FR 4E thread of the main D&D forums on my thoughts about this: The Spellplague thing is sounding more and more like a major RSE that is worse than the ToT hands down. Sure the gods walked upon Toril during the ToT causing havoc with magic, shifting the balance of power, killing a good number of people, and rearranged the pantheon. It seemed even if it was a marketing ploy and edition transition mechanism it was still aiming to make stories interesting (it failed but it tried). While things change the fundamental aspects of the Realms remained more or less intact. Now we have the Spellplague, from what we know it's only (:rolleyes: ) going to kill spellcasters in the Realms, many of whom are well known and even well liked NPCs and flavor characters. All in order to justify a radical magic system change ('meh') and to address a perceived dislike of the Realms' many wizards ('bah'). That last one really has me worried. Is this really necessary? Trying to fix what some call a problem in an almost punishment, wish-fulfillment sort of way. Let's just magically wipe the characters some people say they don't like out in a horrible plague. It's the sort of thing you wouldn't even wish upon your enemies. Am I off the mark? I really hope I'm wrong about this. Remember the main reason for this perception of invincible wizards in the Realms: RSEs handled by high level wizard NPCs (who were originally never meant to do so anyway) in over hype novel plots (many ordered by the company) that adversely affected the setting in both tone and history. These characters should gradually fade into history or the far background of the setting. Some should die heroically and others due to their own folly, some will wan into humble memory and others will fade into obscurity. Do not blow the setting up to accomplish what a bit of time and a steady subtle guidance will do. More RSEs will cause more problems, guaranteed. You can't heal a man wounded by a gun with another shot, this time to the face. You need to remove the bullet from the old wound, awkward remnants of the old RSEs in this case. Then you need to apply care to the wound and give it time to heal, something which the Realms hasn't had for a long time. Yes, I'm being a bit snarky, but I hope my statements tapped into some logic and wisdom. All I can hope is that the Spellplague will not utterly obliterate the setting and still hope to reconstruct it again. It is ridiculous easy for WotC to do the former but practically impossible for them to accomplish the latter no matter how hard they try. I feel the Realms' popularity is a bit of a gestalt phenomenon. A number of varied factors came together at the right time at the right place to give WotC this popular setting. Trying to fix things by taking the setting apart, dissecting it, and them putting it back together again will likely not yield the same success. This thing has a life of it's own, it will do well naturally, but if you rip it up and slap it back together you get something closer to Frankenstein's monster, a simulacrum of the real thing, resembling it but only a diminished version of the original. --- I think we differ in that I don't think the Realms is utterly lost yet. However, I feel that the Spellplague is a questionable plot development and a precarious spot for the Realms to be in. I feel that if WotC just stops with the RSEs, it will do wonders for the coherency of the Realms. To cull the high level NPCs, they can continue doing what they've been doing. Gradually kill a few select characters. Sent one off every now and then with a strong novel focused on the personal goals, triumphs, failures and interactions rather than a RSE. I think this is far more conductive towards the image of an "ever-changing Realms" than a sudden upheaval that is supposed to magical right all the meta-plot wrongs of the last twenty years. It's like the difference between a smooth ride in a nice car down a well paved road compared to a bumpy ride in a rickety golf cart with your feet hanging out the missing bottom making sudden stops in the middle of a war zone. Then when 4E arrives, for once don't stat out the famous high-level NPCs. If they have to, give a few short hand stats, a few guidelines that make sense and fit in the established system, not require excessive ad hoc rules. Make the NPCs ambiguous, useful, non-static. Then treat then like retired adventurers, too worn to do much active meddling. A lot of the problems with these uber-wizards is just poor framing in novels and what not. Sourcebooks seem a little less biased towards them (particularly the 3e ones). I believe with just a good reinterpretation most of the troublesome NPCs can drop back down to earthly levels (crunch and fluff) rather than glorified and standardized ('goodified') to high heaven and thus seem to soak up the spotlight from the PCs. Then 4E novels should focus on mid-level characters in smaller conflicts or more personal stakes (more sword & sorcery than high fantasy). This is far more sustainable. I feel the Spellplague may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back and that is like morbidly watching a train wreck. Now, the Realms just like a train about to head into a region known for unfinished bridges, trains going the opposite direction, and rockslides.
Alleran 08-21-07, 04:52 AM	I think Dark Wizard has summed up my perspective on the whole thing almost perfectly. I'll still wait and see, but I tend to agree with what he's written. Mystra makes a play for the Shadow Weave, is infected leading to all other Weave users impacted by a Spellplague. Personally, if Mystra absorbs the Shadow Weave, the only effect I want to see personally is that she drifts to TN from her current NG. Why? Because as much as I really don't mind the fact that she's NG at the moment, absorbing the Shadow Weave would indeed have an adverse effect on her - it's hinted at in Faiths and Pantheons, IIRC. And why TN? Because it'd shut up all the Mystra-haters out there who continually complain that magic shouldn't be controlled by a good goddess, despite the fact that she administers the Weave in a TN fashion anyway. :rolleyes: Not pointing any fingers, and I'm not going to go on about it, since that isn't the point of the thread, but I figured I'd clarify my position on what I want to see happen if that's what this Spellplague is. Elminster hides out at Ed's house, Larloch hits Sigil, Szass Tam creates a demi-plane to hide out. For some reason, the bit about Larloch was highly amusing. I have no idea why. Maybe it's the thought of Larloch taking a vacation and heading off to Sigil's newest and fanciest nightclub to pick up some hot vampire chicks while Toril goes to the dogs. :D
PharaunMizzrym 08-21-07, 06:18 AM	I think Dark Wizard has summed up my perspective on the whole thing almost perfectly. I'll still wait and see, but I tend to agree with what he's written. Personally, if Mystra absorbs the Shadow Weave, the only effect I want to see personally is that she drifts to TN from her current NG. Why? Because as much as I really don't mind the fact that she's NG at the moment, absorbing the Shadow Weave would indeed have an adverse effect on her - it's hinted at in Faiths and Pantheons, IIRC. And why TN? Because it'd shut up all the Mystra-haters out there who continually complain that magic shouldn't be controlled by a good goddess, despite the fact that she administers the Weave in a TN fashion anyway. :rolleyes: Not pointing any fingers, and I'm not going to go on about it, since that isn't the point of the thread, but I figured I'd clarify my position on what I want to see happen if that's what this Spellplague is. For some reason, the bit about Larloch was highly amusing. I have no idea why. Maybe it's the thought of Larloch taking a vacation and heading off to Sigil's newest and fanciest nightclub to pick up some hot vampire chicks while Toril goes to the dogs. :D Larloch deserves a nice vacation from baby sitting Szass Tam. If they destroy Larloch, with enough worship he can be resurrected as a god. Since Im the first to suggest this, I get to be his vampire lord high priest. Dont worry, Ill let you guys borrow the undead army. While Wizards is corrupting FR with the spellplague, why not bring back Moander, god of corruption. That plot hook was in Powers of Faerun, run with that one. I would like to at least get something good from this change.:rant:
Kid SixXx 08-21-07, 06:32 AM	-That is a very good way to look at it. Let's just hope that Dr. Nick isn't doing that surgery... Better Dr. Nick than Quentin Costa, eh? Sounds like most of you folks should be happy with the Spellplague since it looks like it will accomplish what most of you want it to, ie. "darken" the campaign a little and kill the "shiny happy Realms" noise from nay-sayers. I'm not sure that killing that critique required such a deliberate action but it seems like a well thought out direction... at least until I take a peek at Spellplague mechanics.
Aldareth 08-21-07, 07:06 AM	i dont believe that mystra is going to make a move for the shadow weave... i believe that hsar uses the shadow weave as a distraction to spread her latest creation - the spell plague. if i let my imagination race , the plague takes effect and lathander rushes his dawn cataclysm to save the day and as a result we have a new magic system...
PharaunMizzrym 08-21-07, 07:16 AM	Better Dr. Nick than Quentin Costa, eh? Sounds like most of you folks should be happy with the Spellplague since it looks like it will accomplish what most of you want it to, ie. "darken" the campaign a little and kill the "shiny happy Realms" noise from nay-sayers. I'm not sure that killing that critique required such a deliberate action but it seems like a well thought out direction... at least until I take a peek at Spellplague mechanics. Definitely a sound way of looking at the transition. I am surprised that WotC doesnt kill off the high level mages by writing a lot of novels for this purpose.This spellplague leads me to believe that Szass Tam has a good chance of being destroyed in the new book series about Thay.
421 08-21-07, 07:22 AM	I think Dark Wizard has summed up my perspective on the whole thing almost perfectly. I'll still wait and see, but I tend to agree with what he's written. Same here It will require Mystra to absorb the taint of the Shadow Weave into herself and end her life... Again ???? Too funny, but true. However, I do agree with the basic premise behind the idea - IMO the setting as it currently stands looks more like Jacko than anything else. Something must be done to fix it. There is a possibility that it could be made worse, but really at this point... how much worse could the setting get? The Novels seem to be in a competition to see how much damage they can inflict upon the setting, so something MUST be done to stop them. I just hope WotC learns from the mistakes of the past, and in the future they set all RSE Novels in the past, and keep all current novels small and regionally based. I also hope that they force the authors to step away from the uber character complexes they have and focus more on the REAL character's of the Realm's. I do agree on that part. Back on Toril during this event thousands upon thousands of powerful Wizards (all who are 15+) have died over the course of the events. Well, last time I checked, the weave was not just a wizards thing, it also power all those nice supernatural and spell-like abilities. Do you mean to also kill all dragons, beholders, .....
Meldread 08-21-07, 08:02 AM	Well, last time I checked, the weave was not just a wizards thing, it also power all those nice supernatural and spell-like abilities. Do you mean to also kill all dragons, beholders, ..... That wouldn't bother me a single bit. There are -way- to many Dragon's in the Realm's anyway. Has anyone even stopped to wonder what they all eat? Those Dragons have to eat something, and would have to consume tons of food daily just to sustain themselves. Dragons should be rare and special, but in the Realm's they just seem so common - even ordinary. Bleh. I'm not even sure what Beholder's eat... people, I would assume. :P -------------------- I agree that the Spellplague sounds worse than the ToT, but I do not agree that it is a bad idea. I see WotC as having two options: 1. They can either retcon them out of the setting - Great Tree Style. (I.E. "They never existed!" or "They never existed like you THOUGHT they did!") 2. They can come up with some explanation as to why they are no longer as powerful as they once were or as numerous. When faced with those two options I think they wisely favored the second. I think we all agree that the current path the Realm's is heading on is unsustainable. These Uber Characters invite authors to write about RSE's and while they make for great novels, they intrinsically ruin the setting by killing its integrity. Do you think it will be any better if they draw it out over a period of time? I think of this as being similar to pulling off a band-aid. You can either hurry up and get the pain over with or you can draw it out. Since I do not like pain, I favor getting it over with as quickly as possible. Personally, I intend to downplay the effects of the Spellplague. It will be a big thing for arcane casters (and maybe divine magic users) but for the 95% of the Realm's who are under level 5 their life will go on. For those who live near Thay they might celebrate the death of so many Wizards. For those who live in areas where more beneficial arcane users are found such as Cormyr or the Dalelands the majority of people will probably think like this... "Yeah, yeah... I heard something about a plague that killed a bunch of wizards. Pity about that Elminster, I heard he wasn't so bad. At least I heard it got the Red Wizards and the Zhents, too. So anyway, how many apples do you want to buy?"
Wenin 08-21-07, 08:25 AM	MarkusTay63, you have a well thoughtout theory, but I can only hope that you're wrong. =( I wonder and will have to ask if Ed Greenwood will be implimenting this Spellplague business in his home game. Oh MarkusTay63, when I went to your map website it tries to load some error protection software. blah =(
Alleran 08-21-07, 09:27 AM	Has anyone even stopped to wonder what they all eat? Those Dragons have to eat something, and would have to consume tons of food daily just to sustain themselves. They sleep. You were aware of that, right? That Dragons can potentially sleep for many hundreds of years at a time? When faced with those two options I think they wisely favored the second. I think we all agree that the current path the Realm's is heading on is unsustainable. These Uber Characters invite authors to write about RSE's and while they make for great novels, they intrinsically ruin the setting by killing its integrity. The Forgotten Realms tends to reel from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor out bar-hopping at 3AM. So to speak. ;) In any case, I don't necessarily think that an "uber character" creates an imbalance in and of itself. However, I do agree that when said characters are overly used throughout the course of novels to the point where each trilogy is becomes an RSE, there is a problem. I wonder and will have to ask if Ed Greenwood will be implimenting this Spellplague business in his home game. Ed's home game isn't up to the Time of Troubles yet, IIRC.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 09:40 AM	Sometimes plastic surgery isn't always a bad thing, and personally I am of the opinion that the Realm's need it badly. -The problem, however, is that the Realms don't need any "plastic surgery". Right now it looks like it has suffered from a horrible train wreck - it has epic characters out of the wazoo - it has suffered RSE after RSE... the Realm's has pushed believability to the limit and is simply becoming absurd. -So, the answer to all of that is to randomly insert yet another RSE, and randomly kill all of these "epic characters out the wazoo", many of whom are iconic to the Realms, and, in all seriousness, would have some kind of contingency? Heh, unfortunately this isn't the first time the FR has gone under the knife. It had a lopsided set of implants put in for the ToT, all at a tender young age since the setting was released only a few years before the ToT. Then numerous somewhat smaller jobs done since them. Collagen from someone's ass added as the other sub-setting continents. Many nips and tucks with an occasional sledge hammer to the face in the form of lesser RSEs. The Spellplague might be the dozy, a full body and face lift with major reconstructive surgery in mind, maybe some laser skin repair and a throw in a nice artificial tan for that leathery orange look so popular nowadays. Remember, too much plastic surgery (especially in the hands of a bad surgeon) could mean the Jacko look. That is far closer to the destiny of the Realms now than [insert most current hot celebrity] given the extensive publication history of the Realms and the obsession the management has with making the setting under go 'plastic surgery.' -DW, I love your analogies...:) Better Dr. Nick than Quentin Costa, eh? -I don't know. I just looked up that Quentin Coasta character on Wikipedia, and he does seem quite wacky. Dr. Nick is just so lovable, though... Sounds like most of you folks should be happy with the Spellplague since it looks like it will accomplish what most of you want it to, ie. "darken" the campaign a little and kill the "shiny happy Realms" noise from nay-sayers. I'm not sure that killing that critique required such a deliberate action but it seems like a well thought out direction... at least until I take a peek at Spellplague mechanics. -SixXx, have you been maintaining that loft I bought in Eberronspace a few months ago? It looks like I might just be moving in for a little while...
Wenin 08-21-07, 10:21 AM	Ed's home game isn't up to the Time of Troubles yet, IIRC. From what I understand, it isn't that Ed's homegame hasn't gotten to the point of where the ToT occurred, but that he completely ignored its occurrance.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 10:44 AM	From what I understand, it isn't that Ed's homegame hasn't gotten to the point of where the ToT occurred, but that he completely ignored its occurrance. -That is correct. -Gasp! Ed Greenwood is playing a non-canon campaign!! ;)
ShadezofDis 08-21-07, 11:15 AM	Personally, I don't see the Realms as broke. Occasionally I am annoyed at the multitude of high level casters but they really can be dealt with in a logical manner. I'm almost always annoyed at how they handle the gods (please, please, please, just for once, don't write from a gods perspective, they're smarter than the author, they're smarter than Ed, just leave them alone to be the millennium spanning beings they are!). However, with a little creative imagining I can come to terms with these things (well, except for the gods part, leave them alone, they're gods, they shouldn't be plotting by the hour, they're plots should develop over centuries). I just don't think they can pull off this Spellplague thing, I think it's going to be terribly ugly, written for underdeveloped 5 year olds and stink of stupid gods. I truly hope I'm wrong, I really, REALLY do but I can't imagine them getting this right. DW is right, if they were to take a subtler approach and develop things over time then I think things could work out well. We've got Shar ramping up her plots, Shade returned, Thay developing allies through economics, monsterous armies on the sword coast and all sorts of other good things that could wittle down the NPC population, destabilize more nations (which is a little silly to me, the realms isn't a happy shiny place) and push forward a sustainable plot that doesn't require an almost epic level of suspension of disbelief. And, if the choice for the rules change is a retcon or a RSE, I'll take the retcon every time.
Lord Zeb 08-21-07, 11:27 AM	For some reason, the bit about Larloch was highly amusing. I have no idea why. Maybe it's the thought of Larloch taking a vacation and heading off to Sigil's newest and fanciest nightclub to pick up some hot vampire chicks while Toril goes to the dogs. :D :cool: That's the kind of amusing image I had in mind.
Kid SixXx 08-21-07, 12:00 PM	-SixXx, have you been maintaining that loft I bought in Eberronspace a few months ago? It looks like I might just be moving in for a little while... Naturally, but I'd hold off on signing a lease until FRCS 4e is unveiled. Eberron faithful also have a knack for doomsaying on an unknown project until it gets released and turns out to be a fairly worthy addition to the library. The only think I ask of 4e is more playtesting to avoid the horrifically broken mechanics of the PrC's I've seen lately.
The Livewire 08-21-07, 12:11 PM	Well, last time I checked, the weave was not just a wizards thing, it also power all those nice supernatural and spell-like abilities. Do you mean to also kill all dragons, beholders, ..... You've keyed the puzzle... Realms 4.0 will be a purely psionic realm! ;-)
Karsus the Mad 08-21-07, 12:29 PM	You've keyed the puzzle... Realms 4.0 will be a purely psionic realm! ;-) eeeeeeeeeeeeek!:eek: Does anyone have any idea what the Spellplague could entail? I'd like it to make boils on everyone's rump who successfully gets targeted by spells. The boils would burst, and miniature pit fiends would sally forth to devour the victim. It'd make it even easier for wizards to rule the world...as is their innate right.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 12:40 PM	Naturally, but I'd hold off on signing a lease until FRCS 4e is unveiled. Eberron faithful also have a knack for doomsaying on an unknown project until it gets released and turns out to be a fairly worthy addition to the library. -I'm looking to avoid this here "Spellplague". And, Eberronspace is close enough to Realmspace so that I can always poke my head in every now and then, and take a peek at what's going on. I also think that we need some more Interspheric diplomacy between our two Crystal Spheres, anyway. I just don't think they can pull off this Spellplague thing, I think it's going to be terribly ugly, written for underdeveloped 5 year olds and stink of stupid gods. -Nor do I. Makes you wonder what's going to happen to the entire nations of Thay, Evermeet, Halruaa, and so on, what, with all of their Wizards, Sorcerers, and so on.
421 08-21-07, 01:06 PM	You've keyed the puzzle... Realms 4.0 will be a purely psionic realm! ;-) Lol, maybe they will bring back Auppenser. Of course, they will feel duty-bound to create the psi-fire and the chosen of auppenser template. I'm looking to avoid this here "Spellplague". And, Eberronspace is close enough to Realmspace so that I can always poke my head in every now and then, and take a peek at what's going on. I also think that we need some more Interspheric diplomacy between our two Crystal Spheres, anyway. Just use the wonderful Time conduit spell.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 01:13 PM	Just use the wonderful Time conduit spell. -I already leased that loft, so I figure that I might as well use it.
malchor7 08-21-07, 01:28 PM	This could include things that are retconned as well as canonical happenings between the current date and 1785 DR (starting date of FR 4E). Stupid question, perhaps, but where does this date come from?
421 08-21-07, 01:31 PM	-I already leased that loft, so I figure that I might as well use it. I'm so disappointed:( You could have a nice tree dwelling in cormanthor, before the so-called "openning". And you choose a damp loft in a wretched plane. Somehow you fall behind your usual standard. Stupid question, perhaps, but where does this date come from? From Candlekeep: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9775
malchor7 08-21-07, 01:47 PM	From Candlekeep: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9775 That's funny, because the only date I see in that discussion is: Q. Real time ad Reams time. Will the progression be faster, slower or the same? A. Going forward, the current tme progression will still remain true. The Spellplagu will occur in the Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR). 1385 =/= 1785 Was the original post just a typo? Because 400 years is a big difference.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 02:05 PM	I didn't think that they would use the Shar vs Mystra thing in the Spellplague, but now I'm starting to lean a little that way. Halaster did say he was "Shar's Creature" to Mystra in EiH, before Mystra cured him of his madness. I suppose that the Spellplague is a 'virus' that resides inside of the Shadoweave (perhaps implanted there by Talona/Moander/etc), and anyone using the Shadoweave risks 'infection'. Up until now, only a few casters have taken theat path, and no-one cared if Sharites went nuts. But if Mystra tried to 'digest' the Shadoweave, she will inadvertantly infect all normal Weave users! And just maybe, it all has something to do with that piece of the Karse Stone she has.... :devil: Then, as someone else said, Lathander would have to 'rush' his Dawn Cataclysm: They say that the Spellplague is tied to the ToT on some level (a 'trickle-down' effect, I believe), so the gods would HAVE TO be involved then. Perhaps some dark god, like Baal, did something when he died, that would later trigger the effect and bring back his return? Truth be told, I'm actually starting to like this puzzle - maybe 4eFR won't be so bad - at least not lore-wise. As far as the rules go, I'll wait and see if it's worth switching over. Stupid question, perhaps, but where does this date come from?Its 1385 DR, not '17', and it was announced at Gen Con, during one of those Q&A thingies, I believe. MarkusTay63, you have a well thoughtout theory, but I can only hope that you're wrong. =(Sadly, I'm rarely wrong - I'm one of those people who figure out the mystery in the first two minutes of the movie. Let's just say I hope I'm wrong this time... :( Oh MarkusTay63, when I went to your map website it tries to load some error protection software. blah =(Check your anti-spyware software, or block pop-ups. I have NEVER had a single thing try to install when I visited my site, even from other people's computers. I'm not sure if Deviantart has pop-up adds, but I've never seen them. Sorry for any inconvenience that it may have caused you.
Meldread 08-21-07, 02:27 PM	malchor7- That was a typo I didn't catch, sorry! MarkusTay63- I'm in general agreement with you. I'm looking toward 4E FR with a positive outlook rather than negative. Regardless, things have already been set on their course and it can't be stopped. It's useless to think negatively, and really if it does turn out badly... oh well. I think most of us have ended up ignoring most current FR lore and inserting only the bits we like. I doubt the Spellplague will change that one way or another. Of course as posted in another thread, Ed apparently told someone that something was going to happen soon that will make everyone angry and that we should just "get over it." I loved the bluntness of that advice. :P
rjfras 08-21-07, 02:36 PM	Q. Will some of the 'staple NPCs' of the Realms be replaced in the 4E transition? A. Yes, because the Realms is a living world. There will be a changing of the guard but Drizzt and Elminster will still be around. No idea what they will do with Drizzt, but last I read in one of the timelines (Dragon 354), when the Sharran assassins attacked Eliminster's Tower he vanished after the battle before his tower is blasted into ruin and hurled into another plane. It would be easy for them to just say that Elminster doesn't make it back to Faerun/Toril until after the Spellplague is over, so he avoids what happened to the other mages. Or that he comes back towards the end and helps cure/solve the problem.
malchor7 08-21-07, 02:41 PM	malchor7- That was a typo I didn't catch, sorry! Oh good, because a 400 year gap would be too frightening to contemplate. As far as my opinion goes, I'm in a "wait and see" frame of mind. Obviously, none of us can know what they'll do--maybe it'll be good. Maybe bad. I haven't invested years and years of interest in the world just to abandon it because I *suspect* they might do something I won't like--I'd like to at least see whether they mess it up or not. I say, give 'em a chance--become familiar with the facts before passing judgment.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 04:05 PM	We hated the ToT, but we got over it. The fact that they won't be doing the 'Spellplague' in a set of novels gives me high hopes - they at least learned something from their mistakes. The Spellplague is obviously something that has been building up for awhile (the year of the first boxed set was 1356, and they say that the Spellplague IS related to an event in there). It culminates in the year 1385, the Year of Blue Fire. Since that is the ENDING YEAR, not the beginning, one can assume that the Blue Fire is the method of cleansing, possibly done by a returning Elminster. How bad can it be? Most people felt that the Chosen and Uber-NPCs were outshining their characters, so now we are just getting back to basics. When the Greyhawk Wars happened, and they released the From the Ashes boxed set, no-one was more unhappy then me (They KILLED Otiluke and Tenser!) Anyhow, I moved on, and discovered the Realms, so in the end it all turned out Okay. BTW - You guys know that the REAL Khelben Arunson lives in Greyhawk, right? ;) That means he can come back after the Spellplague, sort of.
Bonzai 08-21-07, 05:00 PM	- -Nor do I. Makes you wonder what's going to happen to the entire nations of Thay, Evermeet, Halruaa, and so on, what, with all of their Wizards, Sorcerers, and so on. After thinking about it, I believe thay is going to self destruct before 4.0 comes out. With the civil war, and the upcoming spell plague, I think the Red Wizards will be a thing of the past. Evermeet will continue on, and I have a feeling that elven high magic will be around in 4.0 too. Halruaa is probably going to be hit hard by the plague. From what I gather from Shadow Bred, Shar is up to something major. She still has the Karsus stone too, which may play a role. Also the 3 part adventure that WotC has released kind of explains why Elminister survives and is out of the equasion. He was attacked by Sharrans, and was severly wounded. They might have used the plague on him already. His contingencies kicked in, ported him to some pocket dimension, and he will be sitting there licking his wounds for some time. Probably long enough for this plague to pass.
ClobberinTime 08-21-07, 05:38 PM	I think you guys are right on track with the Shar angle, the new Paul Kemp trilogy contains a RSE, and I have a feeling it ends with the letting loose of this SpellPlague. The last book will probably come out around 1/08. My guess is that it is an attempt by Shar to take over the Weave, i.e. somekind of virus in the weave that messes up weave casters. My second guess is that the plague is ended with the weave and Mystra being seperated from one another, and probably with the Shadow Weave and the Weave being melded together. My third guess is that a consequence of this is no more chosen of Mystra (i.e. they don't all die, but are stripped of their powers). My fourth guess is that Mystra is now just a LN goddess of magic. My fifth guess is that all of this is designed to make the realms completely 4.0 compatible, and to nerf Wizards and pump up Fighters and Rogues.
421 08-21-07, 05:39 PM	BTW - You guys know that the REAL Khelben Arunson lives in Greyhawk, right? Maybe we will be lucky and they will use this RSE to kill off Tsarra Chaadren and bring Khelben "Ravencloak" back :D :D :D
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 06:22 PM	After thinking about it, I believe thay is going to self destruct before 4.0 comes out. With the civil war, and the upcoming spell plague, I think the Red Wizards will be a thing of the past. Evermeet will continue on, and I have a feeling that elven high magic will be around in 4.0 too. Halruaa is probably going to be hit hard by the plague. From what I gather from Shadow Bred, Shar is up to something major. She still has the Karsus stone too, which may play a role. Also the 3 part adventure that WotC has released kind of explains why Elminister survives and is out of the equasion. He was attacked by Sharrans, and was severly wounded. They might have used the plague on him already. His contingencies kicked in, ported him to some pocket dimension, and he will be sitting there licking his wounds for some time. Probably long enough for this plague to pass. First off, equation is spelled with a 't'. :P Want to take bets? I think you are right about Halrua, and I already mentioned the Gall (Karse) Stone. ;) I really think 'High Magic' will be a thing of the past - they are going for a 'dumbing down' of the rules, and all the seperate magic systems are the first things to go. The rules have grown cancerous, and now it's time to 'cut-out' all the icky stuff. :devil: Also, Thay is one of the cooler parts of FR - they don't want to kill-off any coolness. In fact, it appears the entire setting is getting 'darker', so a new and improved Thay seems like more the way they will go (under Szass Tam's 'benevolent' leadership, of course). I also forsee the entire Moonsea becoming something like "The Empire of the Moon" or some other such nonsense. I never really liked Zhents, because I thought they were never handled correctly. Maybe they will get them right too, this time out. There will definately be new kingdoms as well, but I wonder if any of the old ones will be biting the dust? :confused:
kaor 08-21-07, 06:52 PM	Not directly related to the Spellplague, but I have always thought Calimshan, Mulhorand, and Unther should be more of a force in FR. They are like superpowers, yet they get very little play. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always gotten the impression that if any of those countries went to war with Cormyr, Cormyr would lose. Yet you hear little about them. Edit: Well assuming they were close enough to have one somehow. I also wouldn't mind seeing some Mulhorand vs. Thay shenanigans going on. That border has been quiet a long time.
ShadezofDis 08-21-07, 07:40 PM	Also, Thay is one of the cooler parts of FR - they don't want to kill-off any coolness. Except whenever they try to do "cool" it comes across as "dumb". Much like the movies. :D In fact, it appears the entire setting is getting 'darker', so a new and improved Thay seems like more the way they will go (under Szass Tam's 'benevolent' leadership, of course). Because the old Thay wasn't dark enough? Really, when it comes right down to it FR is already a really dark setting. The only reason the setting seems light is because they make the villains act like idiots (until the whole Thayan Enclaves deal, that was a good move, insidious and effective). I also forsee the entire Moonsea becoming something like "The Empire of the Moon" or some other such nonsense. I never really liked Zhents, because I thought they were never handled correctly. Maybe they will get them right too, this time out. I LOVE the Zhents, I just hate the way they've been portrayed since. . . oh. . . since I don't know when.
Meldread 08-21-07, 07:50 PM	Here are my thoughts- * Szass is successful in his Thayan take over just as the Spellplague hits. He and his newly formed loyal inner circle hightail it off of Toril to ride out the plague. Szass is retconned to be roughly level 20ish, one of the highest level wizards of the setting. * Larloch abandons Toril for his own demiplane. His interest shifts away from the single world and expands to the planes and other worlds. * Ioulaum remains pretty much where he is... he might suffer to one extent or another from the spellplague, but since he's embraced Psionics he might have some measure of protection. * Lathander does his thing with the Dawn Cataclysm redux which is surprisingly lackluster. He sheds some of his old portfolios and maybe shifts toward Lawful Good. He picks up some of Amaunator's portfolios. * Some Mulhorandi deities merge with the Faerunian Uber Pantheon. Others die or leave Toril. * Elminster is still around and kicking but his focus would stretch beyond Toril itself and more on the bigger picture. He'll probably be chilling in some demiplane, never to return to Shadowdale. * The Twisted Rune and other uber powerful magic groups get the Plague and die. * The City of Shade is gone. Perhaps destroyed in an epic battle. * Most of Mystra's Chosen have either lost their powers, disappeared or are dead. * The Simbul is either dead or missing in action. Aglarond and Altumbel have merged into a single nation. There is a great deal of civil unrest that has just been put down and order is just now being restored. Aglarond is now a free and independent nation kept in check by the Sons of Hoar and its new King is of Velprin decent. New Aglarond is made up primarily of Humans who are rather racist and anti magic. Lots of propaganda has been spread about the Simbul and it is unlikely, should she ever return, that she would be welcome. The Elves of the Yuirwood have either died in the plague or fled as the Humans invaded with genocide on the mind. There are a few small pockets that remain. * The Zhents have stopped sucking and have pulled themselves together. They have cohesively organized themselves into a formidable empire. They were hurt by the Spellplague but otherwise remained stable. As they recover they are a major threat to the Dalelands. * Cormyr's child-king is about to take the Throne. The War Wizards have all but been decimated. Cormyr's future looks bleak and uncertain, and now more than ever it is in need of heroes. * Sembia has just recovered from all of its problems. They are still licking their wounds, but now they are turning their attentions to Cormyr and the Dalelands. The old ambitions have returned. * Waterdeep is still around and kicking although it took a hard hit with so many wizard's dying. Its economy has taken a beating and it has had some major political upheaval. It seems to be on the road to recovery but "anything can happen." * Halruaa was hit hard by the Spellplague, although they seemed to have weathered the storm. They are vulnerable but are in the process of recovery. A new age has dawned and the direction seems uncertain. Many have given up on looking at the past and the accomplishments of Netheril, and have instead begun to look to the future. If anything their isolation from the rest of the world has increased dramatically. * Mystra is now either LN, TN, dead, or something in between. * Silverymoon might be in bad shape. If nothing else it is now highly vulnerable. * Evereska was hit hard. * Myth Drannor has once again been abandoned as the worst of the plague hit the Elves. They've fled back to Evermeet. Alternatively they've fractured into several groups who are opposing one another. A group of Elves may remain with Myth Drannor but this group would largely be anti-human and bent on rebuilding an Elven Empire on Faerun. * The Drow will be affected to varying degrees, but won't be much better or worse than they are currently. * Dragons, Beholders and other such magical creatures have taken a beating. Many died.
Meldread 08-21-07, 08:20 PM	Because the old Thay wasn't dark enough? Really, when it comes right down to it FR is already a really dark setting. The only reason the setting seems light is because they make the villains act like idiots. I agree 100%. Although I do believe the Realm's could be a tad darker, but mostly on the side of grittiness. Most of the problem is how the villains are portrayed. They are almost cartoonish in nature. I can understand a few Wile Coyotes out there, but come on... for the longest time Wile Coyote had more success than the Zhents. I like the idea of the Zhents I just hate how they've been portrayed. It would be nice for them to finally come together into something interesting. The people of the Zhentarim would have an almost Sith like attitude, where the powerful rule the weak and the weak must subjugate themselves to the powerful. The government would be near theocratic in nature, with the overwhelming majority worshiping Bane, but some secretly embracing Shar, with hidden cults of Cyric throughout. It would be the domain of the dark deities. A place where good-aligned deities at best get lip service, and at worst are outright shunned. The government has very little use for freedom, but it is very well organized. Fzoul turns into a man with the mindset of Mussolini (he gets those trains to arrive on time! ...as well as frequent executions...) with the ambitions and charisma of Emperor Palpatine. He speaks charismatically about a new world order, one that seems appealing to many but is in reality little more than a true tyranny based off of hardcore fascist ideals. When someone is in the presence of Fzoul he should be so charismatic that it is difficult to hate him even if you know all the atrocities that he has committed. There is just something about him that should draw people to him - a natural leader - a man that you can't help but feel inspired by... maybe even respect... even if you think he is evil and wrong. However, he should also be the type of man who can order the systematic killing of hundreds of people with indifference and with a great deal of rationality. He should be able to justify his actions not only to himself but also to those around him. The Zhents should be an economic powerhouse exploiting natural resources, with little regard for the common people or the environment. One of the easiest and fastest ways out of poverty would be to join the military powerhouse which 75% of all funds raised go to maintaining. Monstrous races would be welcome, but would not be treated as equal citizens. They'd be allowed to join the army and would be viewed as largely expendable. Etc. Etc.
syl_karagh 08-21-07, 08:24 PM	I think one of the most explicit facts that leads into Spellplague is the Mythallar at Evermeet which in fact is Shadow Weave and Weave composed. But that's just the beginning; Shar uses this knowledge and tries to merge the Weave into the Shadow Weave creating a global magical malfunction provocking Spellplague runs havok. Another way would be that Mystra in an attempt to stop Shar evil plans innadvertenly became mad by absorbing Shadow Weave. P.D.- Sorry for my poor english, my mother language is spanish
kaor 08-21-07, 08:49 PM	Hmmm, just wondered if this spellplague could have anything to do with Moander. Disease is up his alley right?
BadCatMan 08-21-07, 09:00 PM	Shar is undoubtedly involved in it somewhere. 1385 is the Year of the Revelation, and the final year, in her shadow Roll of Years, the Black Chronology, as seen in the Cormyr adventure. Given the obsession with her during 3e, it just has to be. Are we actually sure that the Spellplague is going to kill magic-users? Because that would really suck for everyone's campaigns, worse than killing off the assassins the last time around. It could just make them sick for a while, like they sneeze whenever they cast a spell with verbal components. I wonder if Deneir's search for the Metatext, and Leira's End Of Creation (possibly one and the same?) will also play a part. Perhaps Deneir found the 4th edition rules? I really hope they'd don't kill off any gods, or merge any pantheons. I want more gods, and more pantheons.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 09:25 PM	Some good ideas going around here - I'm sure the designers had it all worked out a year ago and are laughing at us right now. :P The return of the Elves to Cormanther was done obviously when they (WotC) already new about 4e, ergo I think you guys are probably right and Evermeet gets nuked. Nothing happens without a reason, and it always seemed odd to me that the end of that series was SET IN THE FUTURE. What year did that novel end again, hmmm...? :devil: I think Cormanther might be the 'last stronghold' of the Elves, and it WILL survive. Azoun's Grandson will be taking the throne - he will be very close to the age where he can. I have a feeling Shade will be gone as well, but it will play an important part in what goes down. Mystra and her Chosen will be the hardest hit, and I agree that we will either see a new god/goddess of magic, or Mystra's power will be split among several gods and she will be demoted to 'lesser' status. There will be a new kingdom somewhere northeast of Amn (I think a halfling was starting one) With Waterdeep sitting on top of Undermountain and Skullport (and it's Mythal), I think the changes in magic may be CATOSTROPHIC for the city (Remember what happened the last couple of times Mystra lost control?). However, they just came out with a new sourcebook, so it would be strange to totally destroy the city at this point. Probably just a financial/population hit, like others have said. Fzoul shaves his 'Circus Strongman' moustache, and everyone takes him more seriously. Manshoon gives Shredder back his armor, and absorbs the rest of his clones. The Zhents rise in power and become the 'Great threat in the North' - they may even be the ones to bring down Shade (they want THEIR desert back). Halrua - Not sure, this can go either way; they've never really had ANY impact on the Realms one way or the other. They DO have a covert group that uses the Shadoweave, so THAT could play a factor. I think Silverymoon will come out on top. Whatever goes down, I think she will actually get help from Obould. He would jump at the chance to aid a human kingdom at this point, in order to legitimize his realm. I think the 'Syphilis' Empire will come to an end, but I don't know how. I just can't see it lingering any longer. Speaking of Amn - the Maztican region will get some attention, and may even open up as a seperate campaign area for pirate-based adventures. I can see this being developed for the 'Living' Campaigns, just to cash-in on the popularity of the Johnny Depp movies (smooth move, if they pull that off). Larloch, Shoon IIV, and Ambuchar Devayam (Tan Chin) play Cormyr Hold'em in the World Serpent Inn, waiting out the plague. In walks Iouluam and Szass Tam, wearing a VERY faded and tattered Red Robe. Larloch: "Okay... who invited Pinky and the Brain?" Crowd: <loud laughter all around> Mulhorand will finish off Unther - then suffer the effects of the Spellplague worse then most. All Mulan deities either die, or join with the a new, unified Torillian Pantheon (like Hoar and Bast did). Mulhorand will become a very dark and scarey, strange Southern Empire - much like Ed originally envisioned it before the 1e designers pasted 'Egypt' over it. The only thing that stands between the new Thay and world domination will be this semi-new threat from the south. The Hiney-whippers will finally toss the Drow out on their arse, and Dambrath will see a 'renaissance' of sorts. Perhaps they will go to the aid of suffering Halrua, or instead, do them massive damage - who knows? Drow will continue to come to the surface, and Eilistraae will become Seldarine again (and maybe even Vhaerun), bringing the surface Drow back into the fold. This will only be possible do to the incredible loss of Elven life in all kingdoms except for Cormanthor. Possible merger of the Cormanthor Drow with Myth Drannor (mutual protection during the 'apocalypse'). The rise of Goblinkind - just a general observation that in many areas, Orcs, goblins, and Gnolls are working with the local human populations.
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 12:18 AM	Going by the precedent of RSEs I'm going to say the Spellplague will likely end up less than what most people have speculated and some have hoped for (why some of those thoughts came up is a bit beyond me). How many times have people complained about Elminster, Mystra, the Seven Sisters, the Chosen, Drizzt or any number of "problems" with the Realms? Too many to count. There are probably more people vocally complaining about them than those who actively praise them. WotC could have killed off El or anyone at any time they choose. They could have left El to rot in hell, have him go out facing off against a horde of Manshoon clones, any number of ways. The fact is that he remains and will continue to do so in the next edition. Why not knock him out of the Realms once and for all if he's such a troubling character who chases away players from the Realms and comes in ruining games at every opportunity. He is the character who takes the most heat in "Realms suxxor" threads. If WotC really wanted to shake things up, to get rid of the old baggage of past editions, El should be the first to go. The majority of these questionable uber-wizard perceptions will evaporate right there. Drizzt representing the dual-wielding, chaotic good drow ranger fanboy stereotype is probably the next that should go, but he's returning too. So my guess is that the Spellplague will have a lot of hype before the final official material is unleashed. It will kill some people, probably a few well knowns, but far from all of the mages. The rules of magic will change to accommodate the ridiculously bloated spell level system (they call 25 spell levels streamlining?). A few areas will get shaken up, a few areas might get better. Some characters will fade into the background (rather than die out right), some new ones will rise up. Overall it will be a lot of hot air for nothing. Look at how fast the ToT was practically undone. Oh, as for this bubbling up since the old grey box. Unless someone official says otherwise and points to the evidence why, I doubt it. Likely the event was designed to accommodate a reference in the older material or an vague older reference was hijacked to legitimatize the Spellplague. Magic, plagues, dead civilizations and RSEs are not new to the Realms so engineering a tie-in for the Spellplague that just combines a few mundane ideas and common concepts into a supernatural disaster is not too difficult. Sorry if I sound cynical. I would like a refreshed Realms as well (as opposed to a fresh one). However, I don't have high hopes that WotC will deliver given they've relied on yet another RSE to accomplish some meta-game goal.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 12:40 AM	I'm wondering if Obould will tell Gruumsh to get the hell out of his life in the Orc King. That'd actually make me respect the big O a bit. My character who was going to lead an orcish uprising could have kicked Obould's sorry butt. Not because he was tougher, or a higher level or whatever. But because he's smarter. :P Heh, that felt kinda good to say. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 12:42 AM	An ingame explanation of the rules change is always preferable, especially if magic is being a complete overhaul. However I doubt if this 'Spellplague' will have an explanation for how other game mechanics have changed. Magic is probably the only measurable change between mechanics and it's effect within the game world. A fighter is still going to be swingin' his sword and the rogue is still going to be sneakin' about.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 12:45 AM	An ingame explanation of the rules change is always preferable, especially if magic is being a complete overhaul. However I doubt if this 'Spellplague' will have an explanation for how other game mechanics have changed. Magic is probably the only measurable change between mechanics and it's effect within the game world. A fighter is still going to be swingin' his sword and the rogue is still going to be sneakin' about. I actually disagree. I prefer the GT switch to the ToT switch. This does sound like it will be something in between but I really can't even consider getting my hopes up for anything of quality, otherwise, if I think it sucks, I might just go homicidal. :)
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 12:52 AM	That is actually something that might come out from this Spellplague. The 4E seminar mentioned "alternative power sources" so other classes can have limited-use abilities to manage as well. Perhaps the Spellplague is not only a mage killer but also a magic carrier that infects more people with magical abilities, so now your regular fighter can access some minor abilities. Maybe the Spellplague was designed by socialist, spreading the wealth around. Perhaps the Weave will get torn into smaller pieces. On another note, somehow I keep thinking the Spellplague is going to end up sounded like the video from the Ring. A namelass dweomer known only as The Spell is being passed around amongst spellcasters, either through stealing, killing, copying or even sharing. Once you cast it you have seven days to live. And the dark haired soggy girl is actually Leira returned from imprisonment in the Plane of Dread, or maybe Shadow Plane if we want to keep with theme.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 12:54 AM	I actually disagree. I prefer the GT switch to the ToT switch. This does sound like it will be something in between but I really can't even consider getting my hopes up for anything of quality, otherwise, if I think it sucks, I might just go homicidal. :) That's a safe bet, you'll avoid any soul-wrenching disappointment or be pleasantly surprised Personally I've been getting into optimism lately, I hear it all the rage this season.;)
PharaunMizzrym 08-22-07, 04:34 AM	That is actually something that might come out from this Spellplague. The 4E seminar mentioned "alternative power sources" so other classes can have limited-use abilities to manage as well. Perhaps the Spellplague is not only a mage killer but also a magic carrier that infects more people with magical abilities, so now your regular fighter can access some minor abilities. Maybe the Spellplague was designed by socialist, spreading the wealth around. Perhaps the Weave will get torn into smaller pieces. On another note, somehow I keep thinking the Spellplague is going to end up sounded like the video from the Ring. A namelass dweomer known only as The Spell is being passed around amongst spellcasters, either through stealing, killing, copying or even sharing. Once you cast it you have seven days to live. And the dark haired soggy girl is actually Leira returned from imprisonment in the Plane of Dread, or maybe Shadow Plane if we want to keep with theme. Alternative power sources? Does this mean I can create a player character that runs on an electric battery? If so, which classes are better suited to Duracell and which should take Energizer?
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 10:09 AM	Since the 4E thread that had this in it closed I'm going to reply to it here because it might just be something positive in the 4E deal; 4E Factoid: You can look forward to one 4E PHB per year for at least the next three years. That's straight from WotC at the seminar. How that scales with the Monster Manuals (and more importantly: Realms Sourcebooks)....well I dunno yet. Now, this I might be able to get behind. One of the things that has annoyed me most about 3.X has been the "Rifting" of D&D. With every new book that comes out we get a few classes, a dozen PrCs, two dozen feats and a host of new spells and magic items. IMO it is preferable, BY FAR, to have these things under the umbrella of one book (or three, for magic items and setting specific PrCs). If they come out with a PHB a year, that contains AT LEAST 80% new material (hopefully more), and keep 95% of character creation in those books (classes, feats, skills, spells, equipment, ect) then I'll be happy with the PHB deal (so long as the price tag isn't 40+). Same concept for the DMG and for the FRCS (because there are some things that really are FR specific and shouldn't be clogging the generic books). So far this is the best news I've heard, unless I'm incorrect about my assumption and the "PHB a year" deal won't be 80%+ new material per PHB. ;)
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 10:20 AM	That's a safe bet, you'll avoid any soul-wrenching disappointment or be pleasantly surprised Personally I've been getting into optimism lately, I hear it all the rage this season.;) I'm very optimistic when it's something I'm doing. When it's someone else doing it then I get VERY cautious, especially if I actually care about what they will be doing. ;) One of the reasons I am so very cautious is the concept of a mass killing of NPCs. This will change the face of the Realms and I'm sick and tired of the face of the Realms being pushed at*. I love the Realms, I want the Realms to stay the Realms and it's been being battered like a red headed step child. I might start marching around the WotC offices with a plackard that says "No More RSEs!" ;) *But, ultimately not changed, despite the fact they SHOULD have been changed by the dracorage, the shade inspired drought, the ToT, the Elven Crusade, etc etc Some of these might not feature in the books published since the events, but the lack of even a nod towards them is just . . . I'm done with that, starting to get carried away again *g*
msatran 08-22-07, 10:22 AM	Quite frankly, this is going to be a colossal pain in the ass for those of us who are currently running a bunch of games. Then I have to figure out who's been up to what, how old people actually are, and what effect they've had on the gameworld. I run no less than 12 different groups in the Realms, all out, about and doing things. I know most of you don't do things this way, but the same people can't always make it and I don't like to run more than two down. :) The thing is, I would actually RATHER run a game in Cormyr RIGHT now. But apparently Wizards doesn't want players actually involved in an intrigue laden, politically complex environment where one misstep could spell disaster for the royal heir, or for a usurper.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 10:32 AM	The thing is, I would actually RATHER run a game in Cormyr RIGHT now. But apparently Wizards doesn't want players actually involved in an intrigue laden, politically complex environment where one misstep could spell disaster for the royal heir, or for a usurper. Oh, I don't think it's all that hard, I mean, Cormyr hasn't changed that much because of the Devil Dragon. :rolleyes: Don't worry though, they'll finish that plot up before you get a chance to touch it. (though, to be honest, if they update Cormyr for 4E then all you need to do is check the older Cormyr sources against the newer sources, assuming we get information on nobles and civic leaders and what not, then you'll know who's died, what houses have gone under or risen in power and you can devise plots around that)
msatran 08-22-07, 10:40 AM	Well, the problem is, the classic intrigue plot is "Who plots to assume the throne while there is a regency." And I'm a big fan of classics. If there's no regency, then it's less swashbucklery, and I was very interested in running a "Captain Altatriste" style of campaign.
Steelwind 08-22-07, 10:46 AM	The thing is, I would actually RATHER run a game in Cormyr RIGHT now. But apparently Wizards doesn't want players actually involved in an intrigue laden, politically complex environment where one misstep could spell disaster for the royal heir, or for a usurper. Well Cormyr was always a solid rock, then when Azoun died and 3E came out someone cast transmute rock to mud. Theres plenty of other jacked up places in the Realms, I will take a solid Cormyr back in a heartbeat.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 10:58 AM	Well, the problem is, the classic intrigue plot is "Who plots to assume the throne while there is a regency." And I'm a big fan of classics. That's what I'm sayin, when comparing sources you get to see who's there, who's gone, who's risen in power, who's fallen in power, ect. With this information, you can craft a wonderful game set back when lil Azoun is 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 or 12 or 15, ect. Further, you could have one of the plotters win and make Azoun a puppet who the PCs have to expose or dispose or rescue from the influence of Cardinal Richeli. . . er. . . the noble behind the throne. ;)
msatran 08-22-07, 12:41 PM	Cardinal Richelieu. Very funny. :) Still, I was actually kind of hoping that "There is no heir, the heir really isn't a puppet, the heir is long since dead. He's a pit fiend." At level 17 or so, the PC's discover that everything isn't quite right, most of the people on both sides of the conflict are dead, they're all powerful and influential, and slowly, the Obarskyr's grip on power is beginning to erode. Then, over the next two levels, they discover some disturbing facts about solar conjunctions, etc, and then, at the end, they have to fight a Pit Fiend and his minions. Whee! Sadly, I did not come up with this. It comes from an old "Book of Treasure Maps" scenario called "The Prophecy of the Sun King..."
Bonzai 08-22-07, 01:14 PM	I am under the impression that the spell plague will be exactly that, a plague that kills those who cast spells. Hence WotC encouraging everyone to finish their games up, and starting fresh with 4.0. Elminister will survive, because he is probably going to be licking his wounds for a while, and will miss it all together. Though this brings up some interesting questions. 1. Considering what happened to Auppenser when Jhadamath was destroyed, what would a plague like this do to Mystra? 2. I am assuming that persistant magical effects (like Mythals) and items will all survive, as I am assuming that the plague only effects the living casters. Has anyone heard differently? 3. Would the plague, considering that plagues usually only effect the living, affect undead as well? If not, Tam, Larloch, Shoon, Ioulum, etc.. would all be alive and well in 4.0, and adjusting to the new magic system (not the first time the Netheril boys have had to do that either). 4. Is it me, or does the new magic system sound kind of like the old system that Arcanists used? Less reliance on memorized spells, more of a spell point system, and it looks like with the 30 lvl system there will be spell levels over 9th level. So in game terms, it may well be that Mystras ban is lifted, particularly if mystra suffers from a coma, or is otherwise incapacitated. If that is the case, this could be the moment all the Netherese Arcanists have been waiting for, and we could see them pushing for a return to the old ways. The return of the age of Mythallars. Just some random thoughts...
MarkusTay63 08-22-07, 02:05 PM	"Spell Level" is a metagame concept that we, as players, use. Mystra never said "no 10th+ spells" - that would just be ridiculous. What she said is no more ultra-powerful magic, which is what stopped casters from using 10+ spells. The new system will not be more powerful, they are just going to take the existing spells and spreading them out. That means you still get Wish at level 18, because it will be a level 18 spell. I'm not sure about levels 19-25, but I have a feeling thats where they are going to place the Epic/High/10+ spells, since levels 20-30 are already being called the epic levels. Also, expect the level progression to go onto 40 (Immortal?) with the PHB II, and spells will probably go up to that level as well. :rolleyes:
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 03:06 PM	2. I am assuming that persistant magical effects (like Mythals) and items will all survive, as I am assuming that the plague only effects the living casters. Has anyone heard differently? Well if they are changing how spells are working then I imagine that it will affect spells that are already in place, aswell as magic items. They have stated that magic item crafting will no longer be tied to experience points or even feats. So I think we can expect a fallout in that department aswell.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 04:04 PM	Sometimes plastic surgery isn't always a bad thing, and personally I am of the opinion that the Realm's need it badly. Right now it looks like it has suffered from a horrible train wreck - it has epic characters out of the wazoo Just my opinion (obviously), but that doesn't bother me. - it has suffered RSE after RSE... the Realm's has pushed believability to the limit and is simply becoming absurd. Agreed about RSEs. But adding another RSE to the mix isn't going to wipe them all away. I've said it before and I'll say it again--I'm not "angry" and I don't have an axe to grind regarding "the guys" at WotC. But I probably will not be using their version of the Realms anymore. I'll be using the version in my head.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 04:07 PM	I like the clean slate that this hopefully will setup. I like MASSIVE change when I feel what is being changed has already gone horribly wrong. Kill off Drizzt and the lot of em and let the PC's take the spotlight. Who says Drizzt is being killed off? :) Quite the opposite, actually--according to WotC, he'll be sticking around. I also don't think one needs a cataclysmic event to have PCs take the spotlight.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 04:11 PM	Why a change is game mechanics needs to have an underlying major event to explain it, is also something I do not understand. To explain discrepancies in novel descriptions? Then perhaps novels should be sold with rules summaries. I've been thinking about this myself. Novels should still be novels--stories first--even if they also happen to be D&D tie-ins (nevermind that the Realms was a story setting before it was a game setting). Personally, I don't care about rule mechanics much at all with regards to books. I think major events that explain rule changes are attempts at solving a problem that does not and should not exist...at least in my view of things.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 04:25 PM	Sounds like most of you folks should be happy with the Spellplague since it looks like it will accomplish what most of you want it to, ie. "darken" the campaign a little and kill the "shiny happy Realms" noise from nay-sayers. You aren't talking about me, friend. I was never one of those "nay-sayers": I like the Chosen of Mystra, Mystra (not Shar), all the powerful wizards, and the heroic feel of the setting.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 04:48 PM	Agreed about RSEs. But adding another RSE to the mix isn't going to wipe them all away. I don't this Spellplague is an attempt to wipe away any previous events but merely to illustrate the ingame transistion from 3.5 to 4.0 magic.
PharaunMizzrym 08-22-07, 05:56 PM	Quite frankly, this is going to be a colossal pain in the ass for those of us who are currently running a bunch of games. Then I have to figure out who's been up to what, how old people actually are, and what effect they've had on the gameworld. I run no less than 12 different groups in the Realms, all out, about and doing things. I know most of you don't do things this way, but the same people can't always make it and I don't like to run more than two down. :) The thing is, I would actually RATHER run a game in Cormyr RIGHT now. But apparently Wizards doesn't want players actually involved in an intrigue laden, politically complex environment where one misstep could spell disaster for the royal heir, or for a usurper. Have your players enter a room or The Cavern of Time (just made that up), fall into temporal stasis, then have the stasis lifted by the Spellplague. Transition to the new rules while keeping the PCs history unchanged. Think Captain America. :dancin:
BadCatMan 08-22-07, 09:32 PM	Maybe the plague only effects spells? Spell-plague, you see? Magic goes a bit faulty for while, like it was in the ToT, then it gets back to normal, though the spellcasters are relatively unharmed. Well, I can only hope it will be so simple...
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 09:43 PM	Those were my initial thoughts on the matter, no wizards dying by the millions, no gods blowing up etc. just spells themselves going *cough* or *splutter* until they are cured (via some handy research some adventurers stumble across in Undermountain). However the cure involves a change of the way they work - hence the new system. But I have a growing feeling it will be a bit more than that, if only to explain the changes with magic items among other things. It will either be a hiccup as spells changeover or an almighty vomiting as the old system is wrenched from the relams. I'm hoping it will be the former case as that seems the most elegant approach.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 10:20 PM	Double Post! Double Post!
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 10:26 PM	I would be pleased even if the reality came out to be somewhere in the middle of those two, between the subtle, elegant solution and the setting explosion/implosion method.
MarkusTay63 08-22-07, 10:50 PM	I think it will be, that is why the intervening 10 years will be in place. For everything to happen in one year would have been the ToT all over again. I think they learned from that, and are going to give us a nice 10-year history wherein the Spellplague builds up, is combatted, folks die, and then the problem is solved - all without our PCs running around in the middle of it. The BIG suggestion is to just start a new campaign, because the rules are not going to be easily convertible. However, a GOOD DM can work with his players, and re-create each character by capturing the 'essence' of what the character was about. From what I understand from some of the playtesting that has occurred, in several cases people's character's actually became closer to how they envisioned them in the first place. Since the campaign I was running never got far along, and seems to be stuck on permanent 'hold', this is not really a problem for me. It will be easier for me to start from scratch anyway. What I am looking forward to is running some of you folks through the twisted passages of my demented psche, and the new DI should let me do that. Players at my fingertips - its like a dream come true. :schemes:
Aldareth 08-23-07, 02:53 AM	I too think it will be something in the line "spells gone wild" a sort of wild magic but with even more unpredictable effects ( larloch casts a light and is affectet bei silver fire :D ). If major NPCs die than because some other NPCs will take the chance to make their moves. So no mass dieyng wizards at all
Wenin 08-23-07, 10:14 AM	[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Mr_Miscellany 4E Factoid: You can look forward to one 4E PHB per year for at least the next three years. That's straight from WotC at the seminar. How that scales with the Monster Manuals (and more importantly: Realms Sourcebooks)....well I dunno yet.[QUOTE] The more I think about this, the more I love it. If they keep the crunch/rules/PrC stuff within these PHBs, and the Lore/NPC Builds within the campaign specific books..... I can continue to buy the lore books for my 3.5 campaign, without being disappointed about buying 4.0 rule books. It will also allow for the D&DI to allow cheaper prices for unlocking online versions of the lore books that are fully indexed/searchable. As I'm assuming the rule books would be more expensive, since they have to design the online content to interface with the Gaming Table and Character Creator software, while the Lore books are just text being made available.
NoxLupus 08-23-07, 10:58 AM	I'm a bit unsure about this Spellplague or whatever it is, so I'll reserve judgement. At the outset, though, I'm already somewhat disgruntled with the directions being taken in the Realms, so whatever this is, it had better be good. Is it just me or, when you look at the over all timeline of the Realms, has the period from 1372 to 1385 have seen more earth shattering events than any other point in Faerun's history. From Shade's return, to the events of the Erivis Cale trilogy with the Soujourner, to the Return of the Elves and the reclamation of Myth Dranor, to the seeming explosion of epic level individuals around the realms, to The Rage... and now this Spellplague, its a wonder the whole damn thing hasn't just blown up yet. Whatever happened to those periods of time where the world wasn't on the verge of annihilation and adventurer's worst issues were goblin raiders, or even just the "simple" power plays between the existing powers. Now you can't go five steps with out tripping over a world-involving quest, or item, or monster, I mean how is the whole "Rain of Fire" thing going to be resolved between 1375 and 1385. I somehow doubt that a war between Bahamut and Tiamat will "burn itself out" in 10 years. ...Just my thoughts on this and the imminent conversion to 4th ed... :weep: -Nox ----------------- 4th Ed makes me cry...
PharaunMizzrym 08-23-07, 12:00 PM	Is it just me or, when you look at the over all timeline of the Realms, has the period from 1372 to 1385 have seen more earth shattering events than any other point in Faerun's history. From Shade's return, to the events of the Erivis Cale trilogy with the Soujourner, to the Return of the Elves and the reclamation of Myth Dranor, to the seeming explosion of epic level individuals around the realms, to The Rage... and now this Spellplague, its a wonder the whole damn thing hasn't just blown up yet. Whatever happened to those periods of time where the world wasn't on the verge of annihilation and adventurer's worst issues were goblin raiders, or even just the "simple" power plays between the existing powers. Now you can't go five steps with out tripping over a world-involving quest, or item, or monster, I mean how is the whole "Rain of Fire" thing going to be resolved between 1375 and 1385. I somehow doubt that a war between Bahamut and Tiamat will "burn itself out" in 10 years. ...Just my thoughts on this and the imminent conversion to 4th ed... :weep: -Nox ----------------- 4th Ed makes me cry... Szass Tam mentions something about this in Unclean. I believe that they handled the aftermath of The Rage poorly. There should have been a reconstruction period, and other events should have occured as a reaction to The Rage. Example: Orc horde assembles and attacks civilization while cities are still repairing the damage caused by rampaging dragons.:dragon:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 02:09 PM	I don't this Spellplague is an attempt to wipe away any previous events but merely to illustrate the ingame transistion from 3.5 to 4.0 magic. Probably not, but I was responding to someone who suggested that it was (or at least, a beneficial "side-effect"). Changing the setting to illustrate new rules is silly. Rules are supposed to be incidental, and for describing the setting. The setting is not there to describe the rules. At least, that's my point of view--I care more about stories, lore, and theme than rules and rule changes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 02:12 PM	Is it just me or, when you look at the over all timeline of the Realms, has the period from 1372 to 1385 have seen more earth shattering events than any other point in Faerun's history. It's not just you.
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 04:19 PM	What amazes me is that absolutely NOTHING hapened between the fall of the Creator Races and the Elven 'Invasion'. And then the only things of consequene that happened for the NEXT 17,000 years was the Sundering and the Crown wars? Elves were interlopers... why are they controlling 2/3 of FR's history? :confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 04:27 PM	What amazes me is that absolutely NOTHING hapened between the fall of the Creator Races and the Elven 'Invasion'. And then the only things of consequene that happened for the NEXT 17,000 years was the Sundering and the Crown wars? Elves were interlopers... why are they controlling 2/3 of FR's history? :confused: Remember that much of the Realms history has never been detailed...
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 04:40 PM	And probably never will. There is a HUGE problem caused by the Sundering - there would have to be two seperate lines of history. What happened before, and then what happened after the spell was cast and the world was changed in the past. Thats enough to give most Sci-fi authors a migrain. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 08-23-07, 06:31 PM	Regardless of what the changes to the setting actually are (and it's rather obvious that they've been working things up to it, which is good), using in-game events to explain setting changes from 3.x to 4e is IMO a step in the right direction, and a partial redemption from the eight year mess of "it's always been this way" that we had for 3e. Be still my beating heart, but perhaps we'll see a reversal of 3e's FR cosmology issues. Some of the stuff we've seen said about 4e might suggest they're open to metasetting ideas, such as a common cosmology, and using all of the various IP they garnered back recently in that manner. We shall see.
GothicDan 08-23-07, 07:47 PM	I really dislike retconning. The changes from 1E to 2E were rather small, and I don't think the ToT needed to be as major as TSR made it (nor did many of the other events in the trilogy please me), but the change from 2E to 3E was so great in so many areas that if you tried to analyze the setting's continuity in a "it always was this way" manner, the mechanical effects would have made much of history and the various events that took place seem nonsensical. The hint that the Spellplague is in some way tied back into events referenced in 1E is a bit heartening, at least. Lore should always take precedence over rules, and retconning should never happen in my opinion... But when the rule changes are so vast, there's really only two ways to address the issue: write lore-based effects or pretend it never happened. I'd have to vote the former.
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 07:53 PM	I concur, I wouldn't mind seeing all of the WotC worlds incorporated into a 'metasetting'. Some of that stuff from MtG is excellent, and would fit into a planar cosmology perfectly (after all, they are called "Planeswalkers"). I was going to start another thread called FR Wish List (steering away from putting '4.0' in the title), but I guess this thread will work just fine. And now, for my first desired map change - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Abeir_Toril1.jpg I think Chult needs to 'break-off' and go away. When Ed created it, it was a fine idea and a nearby place for his heroes to adventure in the jungle. However, since TSR/WotC has expanded the world, we now have much more appropriate regions for that, like the Sempadan in Zakhara, Malatra in K-T, and the Jungles of Maztica (not to mention the ones that most likely exist in Katashaka). So, as much as I love Ed's vision, the world has gotten too big for silly little Chult... dinosaurs and all! P.S. - sorry about Evermeet, I couldn't resist. :P
Kripayne 08-23-07, 08:28 PM	Changing the setting to illustrate new rules is silly. Rules are supposed to be incidental, and for describing the setting. The setting is not there to describe the rules. At least, that's my point of view--I care more about stories, lore, and theme than rules and rule changes. I agree. I grow very disinterested in a campaign if it doesn't have a good story where I get to do more than just roll dice. New rules, classes and powers are dropped into settings all the time. The only way I see that a change to the setting would be necessary is if they alter magic to such an extent that it is completely unrecognizable from the previous setting. I don't see combat mechanics having any impact on setting at all.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-23-07, 08:57 PM	Rules following the story/lore is mostly the best way to play any Role-playing game, they are merely there to help capture and show the stories we are all trying to tell. However when it comes to spells/magic it tends to be abit different. In this case our stories have been following the rules of the spells. Stuff like Spell Slots/levels shape the way our stories are told. When a character does something be it climbing a wall, throwing a chair, convincing an enemy to back down, the rules help us to demonstrate what is happening. When I want to use magic it is intrinsically tied to the rules, if I want to use magic to turn that frog inside out, fly, make a mountain fly, it is all based on how the rules of magic work. Spell-slots, Caster level, daily uses, preparation, components. When you change magic, you are changing the way the game works, and vice-versa. I'm all for the new system of magic being brought in via campaign events. Just as the the way gravity works or creatures are born is part of the game world so is magic.
Mr_Miscellany 08-23-07, 09:03 PM	Be still my beating heart, but perhaps we'll see a reversal of 3e's FR cosmology issues. Some of the stuff we've seen said about 4e might suggest they're open to metasetting ideas, such as a common cosmology, and using all of the various IP they garnered back recently in that manner. We shall see. I knew this 'wish' would be posted by someone eventually. And it's an idea I hope WotC considers, then discards, with absolute haste. The Realms should be about the Realms, not about anything else. I'd likely not purchase new Realms books if WotC pushed the idea onto new gamers that they had to -in addition to the tons of world-based Realmslore- familiarize themselves with an infinite expanse of other primes and planes that have nothing to do with the Realms. The consumer base should not be divided in this manner, WotC should not repeat TSR's mistakes, nor should Realms products point Realms customers away from the setting. Their are no 'Cosmology Issues' beyond the ones trumped up by fans of the older, outdated cosmology. IMNSHO, of course. :P
GothicDan 08-23-07, 09:42 PM	The Realms should be about the Realms, not about anything else. I'd likely not purchase new Realms books if WotC pushed the idea onto new gamers that they had to -in addition to the tons of world-based Realmslore- familiarize themselves with an infinite expanse of other primes and planes that have nothing to do with the Realms. Unless they're playing a planar game, they don't have to familiarize themselves with the lore at all. And if they are, it's better that there be printed canon for them to read in the first place. The consumer base should not be divided in this manner, WotC should not repeat TSR's mistakes, nor should Realms products point Realms customers away from the setting. Eventually, if one wants to play a planar game, they'll use whatever planar material is most available and enjoyable to them. So far, we have next to nothing on the Tree, so they have no canon choice. On the other hand, those who start out in the Realms who wish to expand to a planar setting are going to buy the planar-based books, but since they started in the Realms, I doubt WotC will lose many FR-based sales to such individuals. And of course, there's the completely personal stance I have, in that part of the Realms to me IS it's interconnected feel with the rest of the cosmology. Even if such events were more common in the past, there's still countless references to gates and portals (such as the ones leading to Earth) still active, and to many archetypal mages who are particularly interested in such magic (Halaster and Larloch included). (Humility is old and outdated!)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-23-07, 10:01 PM	I concur with GothicDan, shutting FR off from the rest of the D&D settings is not what makes FR, FR. One of the things that got me into Forgotten Realms in the first place was reading my first Wizard's Three article and wanting to learn more about Elminster and the Lands he came from. Crossovers like this, aswell as omnipresent elements like Sigil, Asmodeus etc. all build onto the overall mythology of D&D - It stops any one setting from claiming to be the true setting.
Mr_Miscellany 08-23-07, 10:15 PM	Unless they're playing a planar game, they don't have to familiarize themselves with the lore at all. And since they don't have to familiarize themselves with setting lore, then they don't even need to play in the Realms. ;) So far, we have next to nothing on the Tree, so they have no canon choice. While it's true our 'Tree Lore' is generally limited and not nearly as exacting as world based lore, players still have a very exact Canon choice. We have names of planes, rules on Faerûn's interaction with the Astral and teh planes, planar descriptions, known divine Realms, tons of prior (and perfectly useful) lore on prior planar events to build adventures from, etc.... Dungeon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys, remember? DMs have a wide open expanse to do with as they please via the planes as they stand. Even if such events were more common in the past, there's still countless references to gates and portals (such as the ones leading to Earth) still active, and to many archetypal mages who are particularly interested in such magic (Halaster and Larloch included). Too common, if you ask me. But then the interconnectedness hasn't gone away. The Realms are as connected as ever to other realities; these realities still leave an imprint on the Realms today. For what its worth, that element/flavor of the setting hasn't diminished for me. But I can see/respect those who prefer it be more to the forefront. :)
GothicDan 08-23-07, 10:23 PM	Dungeon [CENTER]Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys, remember? DMs have a wide open expanse to do with as they please via the planes as they stand. That's true. Maybe it's just me, but I always got more inspiration and creativity from pre-established lore and such for creating my own things. That's where I think Planescape really shined - it was almost totally open to change and personal creativity, while giving the building blocks. Right now, the Tree doesn't even have enough lore to me to give that same balance. Though I find it difficult to reconcile the point of view that we shouldn't give players alternatives to expanding on non-Tree planar lore, and yet they should make it all up themselves. In the latter case, we get people who may still buy FR books, but who may not feel satisfied with the amount of publication concerning the cosmological aspect of the setting. In the former, we get people who buy both FR and core (cosmology) books. How does WotC lose out, here?
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 01:32 AM	Personally, all I did was connect the FR cosmology to the Great Wheel via the Shadow Plane. The idea that Planescape would suddenly trump the Realms because they exist in the same cosmology just blows me away. Planescape is a wonderful place to explore the planes, the Forgotten Realms is a great place to explore the Forgotten Realms. Further, if someone wants to start their PCs in the Realms and then involve some planar happenings (not move their game to the planes, but have a campaign arch that takes the PCs to the outlands in order to find something they need on Faerun) then it's a whole lot easier to use the pre-established Planescape material than it is to make up you're own planes. I'd think that someone who advocates so many stats in the books would want DMs to be able to save time by having pre-established planar lore, rather than the "the planes exist" stance 3E FR has. Especially when we've got demon lords right in the setting. I mean, sure, it would involve one hand talking to the other (Hey, we're going to kill Orcus guys, here's the general outline of the story so please take that into account) but that's not difficult in the least.
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 01:33 AM	That's true. Maybe it's just me, but I always got more inspiration and creativity from pre-established lore and such for creating my own things. Nope, not just you at all. In fact, I base all my games on existing lore, otherwise. . . well, I can make ANYTHING happen, I need some sort of structure to base such freedom on. That's why I chose Faerun in the first place.
MarkusTay63 08-24-07, 01:35 AM	Too common, if you ask me. But then the interconnectedness hasn't gone away. The Realms are as connected as ever to other realities; these realities still leave an imprint on the Realms today.Just to point out, one of the key things mentioned was that they will be getting back to the "Forgotten" in the Forgotten Realms. While some people may take this several different ways, obviously WotC is not about to 'forget' about the Realms. My conclusion, and it's only MY opinion mind you, is that they are going to be going back to the 2e days when every other world in the cosmos is just a portal's throw away. I'm fairly certain (just IMO again) that they will NOT be ditching the Great Tree - that would be like admitting to a mistake, and they are NOT about to do that. Rather, I think they will give us a little more planar lore to bring the 2e and 3e Cosmology into better alignment. At least this is my hope, because as much as I hate the Tree I wouldn't want to see them just say "What Tree?" - That would be very stupid and ill-thought out, which is something they are fervently trying to avoid with this edition.
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 01:44 AM	At least this is my hope, because as much as I hate the Tree I wouldn't want to see them just say "What Tree?" - That would be very stupid and ill-thought out, which is something they are fervently trying to avoid with this edition. I actually like the Tree. Took A LOT of thought to develop my own ideas about the Tree in order to like it but it's allowed me to give outsiders the proper respect I feel they deserve. I'm of the opinion that during the ToT AO shifted the Realms further away from the Great Wheel, using the Plane of Shadows as a "buffer" due to outsider interference in the Realms (well, also because the gods were acting like stupid children and not doing their jobs, namely the protection of Faerun against outside forces). This didn't stop outsider influence but it lessened it considerably. The reason it lessened it is because, in my version, the Abyss in the Great Tree is an "avatar" of the Abyss (hence the terrible stats for Demon Lords who can grant level 9 spells to worshipers *g*) and the True Abyss is frickin terrible (ie. the level of Abyssness is directly proportional to the Avatar vs Actual God). Otherwise, well, the idea the the embodiment of pure evil and chaos can get smacked around by a couple of high powered mortals (or schooled like little kids by the really powerful folks) makes me gag. :D
MarkusTay63 08-24-07, 01:54 AM	I've come to similar conclusions myself, but the 'distancing' of the Realms is more of a cerebral thing to me. Like I said, I don't want to see the tree go Bye-bye in 4e, because that would be even dumber then it just showing up. I hope they will merge the 2e and 3e concepts together, which isn't very hard to do (given that both you and I have done it, and I'm sure at least ½ the others here have as well). I am truly looking forward to 4e, because if they do what they say then it sounds like us FR people are in for a real treat.
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 11:24 AM	Be still my beating heart, but perhaps we'll see a reversal of 3e's FR cosmology issues. -As a fan of Planescape, I like this. As a fan of eliminating unwarranted and unexplained retcons, I like this. But, how are we going to explain another unexplained retcon to reverse an unexplained retcon? -Sure, you can always use the "The Great Tree was the prevailing theory about the layout of the Planes at the time", but A Player's Guide to the Realms is third-party canon, meaning that the information inside is exact and canon. That explanation, while it works, doesn't really sit well with me. -You can always have some kind of RSE to (literally) shake up the Planes, but we've all had it up to here with RSEs.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 03:23 PM	I wouldn't mind a lore overwrite, just because there's been almost no lore written about the Tree as it is, so there'd be no continuity errors. This is the same reason I prefer the Cormanthyr version of the Elven High Mage - the Evermeet version was different statistically (and reflected different lore capabilities), but there was nothing written based on this original conceptualization. (Woah, I almost wrote conception, there.) Although the references about 40th level Elven spellcasters creating the original Mythal of Myth Drannor are interesting. I wonder which version of the EHM that lore was based on. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 10:33 PM	I wouldn't mind a lore overwrite, just because there's been almost no lore written about the Tree as it is, so there'd be no continuity errors. This is the same reason I prefer the Cormanthyr version of the Elven High Mage - the Evermeet version was different statistically (and reflected different lore capabilities), but there was nothing written based on this original conceptualization. (Woah, I almost wrote conception, there.) -My point, though, is that 3e sourcebooks "tell it as it is". All the 2e sourcebooks left some elbow room, what, with the "in-character perspective" (for the most part). WotC already changed the Wheel to the Tree, without much reason. I'd like to see the Tree changed back into the Wheel, but I fail to see how this can be easily accomplished without some great RSE, or some other somesuch, which we are trying to avoid, here.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 10:56 PM	Unless it's a quiet RSE that only the deities are even really aware of. :)
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 11:06 PM	Unless it's a quiet RSE that only the deities are even really aware of. :) -Which in theory could work...
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 11:20 PM	-As a fan of Planescape, I like this. As a fan of eliminating unwarranted and unexplained retcons, I like this. But, how are we going to explain another unexplained retcon to reverse an unexplained retcon? Doesn't DC comics pretty much do this every 5 years or so
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 11:26 PM	Doesn't DC comics pretty much do this every 5 years or so -Probably. I try to pay as little attention to DC as possible.
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 11:29 PM	-Probably. I try to pay as little attention to DC as possible. We have an agreement. Although the new JSA is pretty good
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:35 PM	I've heard that the Marvel Civil War run is pretty good. The latest I've read was up through the first Deadly Genesis graphic novel. Mmm, Vulcan.
MarkusTay63 08-24-07, 11:39 PM	Isn't that the way every big company operates these days.. Pencilpusher: "Hey look! We changed everything to make it better, and wound up making a bunch of money in the process!" Bean Counter: "I know! Let's change stuff again, for no good reason, just to make another bunch of money!" Chairman of the Board [LE Monstrous Humanoid (Outsider)]: "Good idea... in fact, lets do it every few years...." :devil: Thats how it happens everywhere - it's called "bilking the consumer". :bored:
Mr_Miscellany 08-25-07, 03:33 AM	Unless it's a quiet RSE that only the deities are even really aware of. :) That's actually not a bad idea. Something along the lines of the Dawn Cataclysm but 'bigger' in terms of its effects on divinities and their planar homes. Maybe such ‘shifting’ -however seemingly random it may be- is what over time ‘opens up’ the Realms to other realities that end up seeding it with their influences.
Dark Wizard 08-25-07, 04:13 AM	Been there, already doing it for my Realms. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-25-07, 03:27 PM	Will many people be using the Spellplague in their campaigns or will you be leaving it out?
ShadezofDis 08-25-07, 03:38 PM	Will many people be using the Spellplague in their campaigns or will you be leaving it out? Depends on what it is and what it does. All we have is speculation so there really isn't anything to say one way or another. I will have Halaster in my FR though. I just love him (for some odd reason). Not that he'll ever be part of the games I run because. . . well. . . I don't run those types of games (where the 30-40th level wizards are interacting with folks). But he's a "balancing" force when I create my overall plots.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-25-07, 03:42 PM	Halaster has always seemed like one of the pillars of what made Forgotten Realms...well forgotten Realms. I have a feeling that he has not disappeared so easily (foolish optimism coming through here), I think he may have a pivotal role yet in the up and coming Spellplague.
Meldread 08-25-07, 03:55 PM	Like ShadezofDis said it depends on the details. However, based on what we currently know I likely will... but I will probably go further than WotC and make it even stronger. It gives me the perfect chance to fix some problems I have with the setting while still tying things to cannon. I am hoping that they leave a lot of unknown out there for DMs to interpret as they wish. Did Elminster and the Simbul survive? Mystra has gone silent but the Weave seems to be functioning… but differently… what happened? Rather than just tell us flat out what went down I would prefer if they told us what happened from a normal everyday persons perspective. Let us (the DMs) take those details and fill in the blanks. I think that will make the most people happy as they can have their own version of 'cannon' - I just hope the novels aren't then used to ruin it.
msatran 08-25-07, 04:43 PM	I know there are huge fights with Tree vs. Wheel, but this really is a case where we'll have to see what happens. See my "The Big Picture" post on the 4E Forgotten Realms discussion for why I'm wary of all this.
tallgeese 08-25-07, 04:59 PM	Well, I don't anticipate the RSE being real good, or having the least bit of effect on my game. My group has been playing the Realms out of the old gray box for years now, even though we've moved on to 3e+. It's too hard to keep track of what the current time line is doing anyway. With each novel being treated as canon it changes every two weeks anyway. Are the elves here, on Evermeet, back in Cormathor? Who knows this week. Not to say I haven't liked some of the novels or even some of the new source material (Lost Empires was great as was Serpent Kingdoms) but too much of a good thing I guess... As for the tree v. wheel arguement I can honestly say it's never affected our game in the least, much like the ToT back in the day. Bottom line... if you don't like the new version of the Realms, ignore it and keep having fun w/ the old stuff with stories that revolve around your PC's rather than the stat blocks of NPC's that are apparently mandantory in every new hardcover.
Dark Wizard 08-25-07, 05:50 PM	So right. Anything above the power of the most powerful monster in the MMI should have just been left unstated. The majority of games don't beyond that, if they do the NPCs would be so inextricably tied to the individual campaign that any official stats should be near meaningless. Leave them as mysterious story setting elements. Whether the spellplague makes it into my games depends on the final details. I hope that the designers do skim these forums to get an idea of what some fans want and don't want so they can adjust this Spellplague somewhat accordingly.
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 07:15 PM	The problem is DK, that I think they are done with the planning phase, so we will have NO input.The rules are probably 95% done as well, because I KNOW the playtesting has been going on, so its just a matter of fine tuning at this point, and putting it all together. From what I see with various story-lines, everything is already pretty much set in stone as far as FR lore goes. :( I wonder if we'll still need mats to cast spells. I always wanted to create a scaleable system where the power of the spell was dependent on the rarity of the mats used. Thats why I never really bothered with mats in my games, because I just assume the PC has what he needs - if theres no difference why bother keeping track of them? But if using a Blue Pearl as opposed to a white one changed the outcome, then it would have been worth the bookeeping. Ah well, no use crying about anything until we see what they hand us.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 07:24 PM	I still want to apply Mage rules to FR - they're just so damn freeform. Extra bonus negatives depending on mats/Foci, etc.
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 08:41 PM	Yeah, I'm familiar with those - the one complaint I've always had about the Vancian system was the PCs inability to create effects 'on-the-fly', and adjust spells accordingly. Perhaps the new system will allow a little more manipulation... we can only hope.
Mr_Miscellany 08-25-07, 09:17 PM	The problem is DK, that I think they are done with the planning phase, so we will have NO input.The rules are probably 95% done as well, because I KNOW the playtesting has been going on, so its just a matter of fine tuning at this point, and putting it all together. I disagree. ;) Seriously, there were at least a few instances of, "..oh, that's a good idea!" coming from the mouths of the WotC designers at the FR Seminar. Granted, most related to using D&D Insider for distributing FR content, but that doesn't mean WotC isn't listening to us on other topics. Consider: We now have 30 levels of play. 1-10: Heroic, 11-20: Paragon, 21-30: Epic. This means WotC now has a chance to do some real justice to the high-end, high-powered elements of the FR setting*. And while we know WotC has planned their product releases (including FR) 2-3 years out (as they've always done), this doesn't mean the content of those books is set yet. We do have a chance (via Rich's thread at the top) to talk to WotC. I plan to pester him incessantly for expanded rituals that detail Elven High Magic, rules on Spellwebs, Table Magic, etc... :) *Elements neutered in 3E. The Simbul's spells and Spell Mantle come to mind.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 09:19 PM	But I thought they said that such campaign-specific mechanics wouldn't be detailed? I'm not sure if they really have enough room in the core books to detail all of this sort of stuff.
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 09:29 PM	But with two years of R&D behind them, and several novels series 'pushing' us in a certain direction, most of the major stuff must have been figured out already. Now of course, that doesn't mean that they can't make changes - nothings been sent off to the printer yet (except, perhaps, the GHotR). That means we can give them 'inspiration' on some of the details, and maybe help along some decisions regarding the rules. I think they have been quietly listening to us for the past two years, and THAT is what the new lore and rules will be based on. Of course, thats a scarey thought, considering some of the wild ideas people around here have. Also, I've heard some intersting tidbits regarding the Spellplague, and it appears I may have been WAY off base there. :embarrass Either way, next month we get a 'sneak-peak' at whats in store.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 09:33 PM	Markus, what kind of 'tidbits' have you heard? Honestly, 4E might get me back into actively purchasing WotC's books again. I like a lot of the changes. See, I was never on my way to being a grognard, I just genuinely always knew what I wanted. ;)
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 09:49 PM	Sorry, that last response was aimed at Miscellany, but your post 'sneakeded' under the wire. ;) What I'm getting now is that I'm dead wrong (oh well), and that the plague doesn't effect the casters, but rather the spells themselves (think 'living spells' from Eberron and MM3). That doesn't mean it won't effect the caster when the spell turns on him. Once again, it is just rumours - but rumours that are directly related to lore in Undermountain, which I stupidly kept insisting wasn't FR canon. So, so much for my 'going nuts' theory. Anyhow, it got me thinking - suppose the way a Clone spell works is that when you die, your soul travels to the new body and and you're as good as new (you will still only have the physical memories from the time the clone was created). Now I know that would screw-up the whole Manshoon thing, but if it does work that way then wouldn't it be a whoot if 3000 Halaster's 'woke-up' tomorrow? His soul was "shattered", after all. Man, could I have fun with THAT. :devil:
GothicDan 08-25-07, 10:04 PM	That would rock. :) I never thought the Spellplague was as huge and devastating as you made it out to be. ;)
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 11:14 PM	I was thinking "they have to change the magic system, so kill all existing casters", but sometimes the simplest answer is the best one (didn't Sherlock Holmes say that?). The magic has to change because the spells are going nuts. The only way to stop that from happening is to cast them differently. Very neat... very effective - Kudos to WotC. :)
DarkSongKnight 08-25-07, 11:42 PM	I was thinking "they have to change the magic system, so kill all existing casters", but sometimes the simplest answer is the best one (didn't Sherlock Holmes say that?). The magic has to change because the spells are going nuts. The only way to stop that from happening is to cast them differently. Very neat... very effective - Kudos to WotC. :) Phew. And here I was thinking that half of the Realm's NPCs were doomed. But that still seems to mean something big is going to happen with Mystra and the Weave. I can see Mystra and Selune doing something about the Shadow Weave. With Lathender's new plan coming into view, this might shine some light (haha, literally) onto Shar, weakening or even destroying her. This could allow Selune to finally be rid of Shar, and give Mystra the chance to absorb the Shadow Weave herself. Then again, Shar always has some sort of plot going. She may survive and grow stronger... Perhaps she has planned for Mystra to take the Shadow Weave all along, knowing that when she absorbed it, it would destroy or drastically alter her. With the goddess of Magic "gone" and out of the picture, Shar could more actively combat Selune. Also, without Mystra, her "Chosen" might become mortal, or even become part of the Weave themselves... Perhaps they'll serve as "anchors" for the Weave or such, binding it (for good) to Faerun.
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 11:50 PM	You know what would be WAY cool? If it effects both regular AND Shadow Weave Casters, and in the end Mystra and Shar have to put aside their differences to save magic. They merge, and fix magic, and we wind up with a darker, more mysterious goddess of Magic (as it should be). I know that will never happen, because Shar is nuts and would enjoy seeing everything go bye-bye. Of course, that doesn't mean that Mystra won't FORCE her to co-operate, by absorbing her - and that could go VERY wrong. :schemes:
Mr_Miscellany 08-26-07, 12:50 AM	But I thought they said that such campaign-specific mechanics wouldn't be detailed? Please totally take this as me speaking with no sarcasm or attitude: I'm not sure where folks are getting this stuff. The only thing I'm certain of is that during the two back to back seminars I attended on Saturday at GenCon, there was no mention in either the D&D or the Secrets of the Realms Seminars that 4E Realms products would be devoid of any campaign-specific game mechanics. Rich Baker could have said as much in response to my inquiry about whether 4E Rules could better model high-powered magic setting elements of the Realms, but he did not. I really hope we get setting specific mechanics; the better to thrill my players with fantastically deadly magical battles 'n such. :)
tallgeese 08-26-07, 01:17 AM	I get what a lot of you are saying...there are some really good magic systems out there other than the per day variety. Some of the UA options are pretty good for instance. However, let's keep in mind that your mage classes are pretty tough dudes already once they survive a few levels. One of the things that keep them in check is that they can't "cast on the fly". It was this, and the lack of infinate casing ability that led to the downfall fo the mages in the old DL stories. I always thought it was a neat concept. Part of the balancing effect of playing a wizard is the strategy that a player takes in selecting his spells for the day. What does that player want his mage to be good at, and do often, what is his focus and fall back plans. The sorcer was a nice addition, but agian it was limited. This time in the numer of spells available to the caster. It was this need to plan that kept the power of the mage in check. Moving away from that limiting factor could vastly tilt the game even further in favor of mages. (Of course we're discounting the probible high mortality rate of low level mages in a real world scenario- but that's rarely a deterant for someone who really wants to nuke things with a fireball from low Toril orbit) By the time you stack up some of the prestige classes dedicated to the spellcaster types you can almost do and end run around this limitation already. To purposfully go in that direction could drastically alter power levels in the game. Just some thoughts on how radically altering the casting system could have resouding effects on the system as a whole.
Derren S. 08-26-07, 08:18 AM	I have a different theory what the Spellplague will be especially when you consider that all classes in 4e will get /encounter and /day abilities. The Spellplage does not infect magic, but infects persons with magic. So when it hits many joe commoner will start to be able to cast some spells or get spell like abilities. Of course they will have no idea how to controll them and it will be total chaos while those who find a way to controll it will go on a power trip. Imagine when in every cities there are a dozend or so people with (a bit lesser) Spellfire. And with all those magic the weave will probably take damage.
Andyr 08-26-07, 10:57 AM	A Player's Guide to the Realms is third-party canon, meaning that the information inside is exact and canon. What do you mean by this? Is this some new announced supplement, and who is the third party?
msatran 08-26-07, 02:22 PM	Actually, I am very concerned that we're going to get all our information in Grand History of the Realms, and that we won't like it, no matter how prepared we are.
ShadezofDis 08-26-07, 02:48 PM	What do you mean by this? Is this some new announced supplement, and who is the third party? I'm not sure what he means by third party, as my Players Guide to Faerun has the WotC logo on it, but the Players Guide to Faerun is a '04 release.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-26-07, 03:45 PM	What I'm getting now is that I'm dead wrong (oh well), NOOOOO!!:eek: *weeps quietly in a corner as he realises he's been following a false prophet.* and that the plague doesn't effect the casters, but rather the spells themselves (think 'living spells' from Eberron and MM3). That doesn't mean it won't effect the caster when the spell turns on him. As I expected (and hoped) this event will be abit more subtle than some people had thought.
msatran 08-26-07, 08:09 PM	I knew it. He was a heretic all along! Place him in the hands of the Spanish Inquisition, and put him in... THE COMFY CHAIR!
MarkusTay63 08-26-07, 08:13 PM	Ohhhhh.... :eek: I like 'comfy' almost as much as I like 'cozy'. ;) Sorry guys... I guess its time for my crucifiction now... :rolleyes: Seriously though, I'm glad it doesn't sound nearly as bad as I had feared. Still gonna be a few deaths, I would imagine...
Lord Karsus 08-27-07, 08:59 AM	NOOOOO!!:eek: *weeps quietly in a corner as he realises he's been following a false prophet.* -Come with me, child. I am no false prophet...
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 11:51 AM	Don't do it!!! He likes to get his 'hands' dirty... :rolleyes: And besides, I think his shattered soul may be partly responsible for the horrors we are about to endure. That Karsus... still mucking stuff up a couple millenia later. ;) You know, folks have been talking about events surrounding the little Azoun taking the throne in 4e, but I just realized something - The triplets of Queen Zaranda will be coming of age as well (they will be 15 when the new FRCS is released). Three royals all coming of age at the same time in a region called the Lands of Intrigue - tell me that won't be tons of fun. :D All I can say is that if WotC has any sense at all, they will have Schend write ALL of the new material. :dancin:
msatran 08-27-07, 01:54 PM	That's...a political disaster waiting to happen. Tethyr + Cormyr=Colossal Empire.
ShadezofDis 08-27-07, 01:59 PM	That's...a political disaster waiting to happen. Tethyr + Cormyr=Colossal Empire. Ummmm. . . what makes you think that'd happen? There is a chance that the Tethyr royalty might marry into the Royal Cormyrian family but I find it HIGHLY unlikely. Highly. However, the Lands of Intrigue should be hoppin, good call Markus :D
msatran 08-27-07, 02:03 PM	If I were the Tethyrians, between the Neutral Evil Calimshan to the south, and the Sothelissan Empire to the North? I would consider marrying one of those girls off JUST for the military benefits.
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 02:24 PM	Problem is, Tethyrian princesses have a bad habit of dying when enroute anywhere. Then again, so do Cormyrian ones. :(
ShadezofDis 08-27-07, 02:35 PM	Further, Cormyr isn't really in that great a position to support anyone and it'd be better for the Tethyr monarchy to build support within the country than to marry off the kids to outside nobility. Perhaps marrying one into a powerful Waterdeep noble house or a powerful Calishite noble house would be benificial but I just don't see Cormyr being a good choice. That's just me though. :)
Lord Karsus 08-27-07, 02:56 PM	Don't do it!!! He likes to get his 'hands' dirty... :rolleyes: And besides, I think his shattered soul may be partly responsible for the horrors we are about to endure. That Karsus... still mucking stuff up a couple millenia later. ;) -Don't listen to him... -Mark, come with me for a minute...:incog:
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 04:16 PM	Oh know... it's... THE KARSESTONE!!! :eek: Arrrrrggghhhhhhh.... :ghosted:
Lord Karsus 08-27-07, 04:18 PM	:: Casts Resurrection, altering the casting slightly, such that MT can never say anything about about LK, or the Mets, again ::
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 04:30 PM	<What? Why don't I have a mouth...> <Hey! My head looks like a squishy turnip!> :coolcthul
msatran 08-27-07, 04:58 PM	You know...mind flayer smilies are just wrong in and of themselves.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-27-07, 05:20 PM	-Come with me, child. I am no false prophet... Don't do it!!! He likes to get his 'hands' dirty... :rolleyes: -Don't listen to him... -Mark, come with me for a minute...:incog: <What? Why don't I have a mouth...> <Hey! My head looks like a squishy turnip!> :coolcthul *Watching the events unfold* I realise that prophet or not I have little choice in the matter... ....I am your humble servant Lord Karsus :bow:
Steelwind 08-28-07, 09:33 AM	*Watching the events unfold* I realise that prophet or not I have little choice in the matter... ....I am your humble servant Lord Karsus :bow: How many acolytes does this make for you now LK, Im starting to lose track. Frankly the chanting is starting to keep me up at night.
Andyr 08-28-07, 01:30 PM	I'm not sure what he means by third party, as my Players Guide to Faerun has the WotC logo on it, but the Players Guide to Faerun is a '04 release. Yes--but he said Player's Guide to the Realms, not Faerun, so I was wondering whether this was some new product with a similar title. I assume he missed the post, as he's posted a few times in the thread since. :) LK?
ShadezofDis 08-28-07, 02:28 PM	Yes--but he said Player's Guide to the Realms, not Faerun, so I was wondering whether this was some new product with a similar title. Oh damn, missed that. According to google the only "Player's Guide to the Realms" was one of the booklets in the 2E boxed set and I imagine that's not what he's talking about. :D
Lord Karsus 08-28-07, 04:41 PM	*Watching the events unfold* I realise that prophet or not I have little choice in the matter... ....I am your humble servant Lord Karsus :bow: -Excellent. Rise, Lord Eli, newest Hand of Karsus...:emp: How many acolytes does this make for you now LK, Im starting to lose track. Frankly the chanting is starting to keep me up at night. -Between the Cults, the Hands, those so-called "Karsites"...Quite a few, let's just say. ;)
Andyr 08-28-07, 07:49 PM	... uh, LK, any response? :)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-28-07, 09:44 PM	-Excellent. Rise, Lord Eli, newest Hand of Karsus...:emp: Why do I get the feeling I've lost part of my soul?:confused:
MarkusTay63 08-28-07, 09:49 PM	Huh! I figured it out - I just cast a permanant Magic Mouth on my lower face. :P
godbeepit 08-28-07, 10:29 PM	Why do I get the feeling I've lost part of my soul?:confused: You didn't lose a part of your soul, its just finally been completed. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-28-07, 11:19 PM	... uh, LK, any response? :) -You are correct- I did miss the post. Firstly, it is Player's Guide to Faerûn. Sorry for any confusion there. Now, as to what I was saying about "third-party"...Second edition products, for the most part, were "written by" natives of the Realms. Thus, they can be incorrect, by their own nature. Third edition products are written in the third-party perception. The information contained within them is fact, pure and simple, unless a newer product or errata changes it. Get what I mean? Why do I get the feeling I've lost part of my soul?:confused: You didn't lose a part of your soul, its just finally been completed. ;) -Exactly. ;)
Ulicus 08-29-07, 09:54 AM	When it comes to the Spellplague my guess is that, rather than involving the death of all Mystra's Chosen as a few have suggested, it will instead involve the removal of their "special Chosen" status - and probably the death of Midnight too. The Spellplague, whatever it is, has come to Faerun. Midnight needs to call upon all the power of Mystra that her predecessor seeded throughout her Chosen, and so - with their permission - she reclaims it and takes the fight to whatever it is she needs to take the fight to. Perhaps Shar. Perhaps something else. There is a massive battle and Midnight sacrifices herself to restore something resembling normality to the Realms - but with the 4th Ed changes obviously. If Shar is her opponent in this, then she dies too - and then, perhaps, a new deity, a "daughter" that combines both of them arises from their ashes, becomes Mystra 3.0 ("Myshar", "Sharmystra", "Sharstra"?), the new True Neutral goddess of Magic and she chooses not to dilute her power amongst mortalkind again and becomes all secretive and protective of magical secrets, making it harder for mages to reach the levels of power they previously could. As for the other gods? Well, Cyric gets an even bigger secret crush on the new Mystra than he did on the last one, Helm pops his cloggs* and his portfolio goes to Torm (who also gets "Valor/bravery") and Lathander becomes Amaunator just because. :D
MarkusTay63 08-29-07, 10:23 AM	The Spellplague: When you sneeze, Magic Missiles come out your nose. :D
msatran 08-29-07, 01:27 PM	Heh. It could be a linguistic curse. No one can SPELL anything. L-Minnn-sturr.? Ayeeeeeeeeeee? Eye theenk my toez r sumwear neer mie neez! No one can cast spells, because language has become babble. Illumians will emerge (Sob, kill them all), and they'll do all sorts of cheesy things to the planet that will then become canon. No, wait, that's too much like corporate technical writing.
Andyr 08-30-07, 02:16 PM	-You are correct- I did miss the post. Firstly, it is Player's Guide to Faerûn. Sorry for any confusion there. Now, as to what I was saying about "third-party"...Second edition products, for the most part, were "written by" natives of the Realms. Thus, they can be incorrect, by their own nature. Third edition products are written in the third-party perception. The information contained within them is fact, pure and simple, unless a newer product or errata changes it. Get what I mean? Oh, right. I see. In the UK, what you refer to here as "third party" we refer to as "third person". So when you said "third party" I assumed you meant a book published by someone who wasn't WotC (which is what "third party" means in our context), as opposed to a book not written in the perspective of a resident of the Realms. Confusion dispelled!
GothicDan 08-30-07, 02:29 PM	Your confusion was merited. It's called third person in the US, too. LK is just crazy.
Lord Karsus 08-30-07, 03:48 PM	-My/Our soul was sundered into thirds, and I/We am/are forced to use the 'I/We' pronoun. Cut me some slack...
MarkusTay63 08-30-07, 06:47 PM	Ergo everything YOU do is always in the 3rd person. :P :rimshot: :D
Eli_the_Tanner 08-30-07, 07:05 PM	Confusion is the price we pay for an un-unified Karsus.
Lord Karsus 08-30-07, 07:10 PM	Confusion is the price we pay for an un-unified Karsus. -Therefore, everybody should swear fealty to me/us, and work to have this aspect, KtM and our lost third unified into one omnipotent being. As said luminous being, we will usher in a utopian age.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-30-07, 07:44 PM	-Therefore, everybody should swear fealty to me/us, and work to have this aspect, KtM and our lost third unified into one omnipotent being. As said luminous being, we will usher in a utopian age. I have already begun creating a small but growing cult to this end.....granted we merely sculpt soap effigies of Lord Karsus, but it's a start.
MarkusTay63 08-30-07, 10:46 PM	-...we will usher in a utopian age.I've seen the Netherese concept of Utopia... No thanks. :P
Karsus the Mad 08-31-07, 07:36 AM	I've seen the Netherese concept of Utopia... No thanks. :P Ours will have free burritos.
ShadezofDis 08-31-07, 09:28 AM	Ours will have free burritos. It's things like this that make me proud to be a Hand of Karsus. :) Free burritos is a platform I can get behind.
Fabius Maximus 08-31-07, 09:55 AM	Has someone identified this mysterious hint at the Spellplague from 1ed yet?
ShadezofDis 08-31-07, 10:43 AM	Has someone identified this mysterious hint at the Spellplague from 1ed yet? Not definitely, but the current "best guess" is around here somewhere, just look through this thread and some of the 4E ones.
captaincarot 09-01-07, 04:27 AM	it's quite interesting to note that if this spell plague has happened before, it didn't completely change the magic system last time it happened. or am i the only person to see that glaring inconsistency. perhaps it didn't change the way magic worked last time because they weren't looking to sell yet another set of books that people already have. just for the sake of milking the cow of it's cash yet again. while pandering to the ego's of those 5 year olds who cannot deal with the fact that they are not the most powerful being in the universe. The realms is a high magic high powered setting but once they have done away with all of the iconic charachters it will not be the realms any more. one does not enrich an environment by taking away it's essential flavour.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-01-07, 11:35 AM	There is a good point within your post. The spellplague, if it has happened before, did not change the way magic works in a major way. Perhaps it was merely a localised event - explaining why only Halaster seems to remember it. <<Spoilers, sort of>> This may mean it has been heightened to a greater degree, possibly through the shadow weave, collapse of the dracorage mythal; an interesting idea would be that as Halaster's attempt to thwart perhaps another minor Spellplague failed, his failiure and subsequent death could have been the catalyst for spreading the Spellplague. The manner in which he dies may be notable - perhaps he even becomes the spellplague. More specualtion and theories though.
ShadezofDis 09-01-07, 11:44 AM	it's quite interesting to note that if this spell plague has happened before, it didn't completely change the magic system last time it happened. or am i the only person to see that glaring inconsistency. It happened before the 1E boxed set, in the past, the magic system could have changed. one does not enrich an environment by taking away it's essential flavour. We'll just have to see what's what. Since we're pretty ignorant at this time.
BadCatMan 09-01-07, 11:45 AM	Or if it did happen in a major way that changed how magic worked, then it occurred in ancient history, before things were statted, ie. in the time of Imaskar (the Netheril set statted out that period of history), which fits with Hilather/Halaster.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-01-07, 12:01 PM	It happened before the 1E boxed set, in the past, the magic system could have changed. Good point, the rules need not apply in this case. We'll just have to see what's what. Since we're pretty ignorant at this time. I think this can be taken as granted for now, perhaps the thread should include this as a clause to avoid any potential confusion about previews. Or if it did happen in a major way that changed how magic worked, then it occurred in ancient history, before things were statted, ie. in the time of Imaskar (the Netheril set statted out that period of history), which fits with Hilather/Halaster. As above, but also that I'm sure if it did change magic in a major way, then it would have been emphasised in the lore. The fact it is nothing more than a footnote from 1E and never elaborated since - leans toward a localised/minor event.
MarkusTay63 09-01-07, 12:06 PM	I'm with BCM here - the Spellplague happened LONG ago, hence Halaster's involvement. We have been promised more history about Imaskar in the GHotR, so perhaps it was for this very reason that they covered more of the ancient past. Don't forget we already have a massive 'plague' in Imaskar's history that wiped out many of their people. And if the magic system IS different from then, who would have known? Perhaps the ancient Jamdaathans (now all gone) and the early Calishites under the control of the Dgen? If thats the case, then Elven High Magic must have been different from normal magic to not have been affected. Just a thought.... That, of course, is based on the fact that Elven Magic used to be different, as opposed to the way it's handled now (as epic). Perhaps this will explain why the Elves switched over from their older form of 'pure' High Magic, to the new, more human way of casting? Would be interesting to see them tie-up ALL the lose ends.
ShadezofDis 09-01-07, 12:26 PM	Would be interesting to see them tie-up ALL the lose ends. UNPOSSIBLE! hehe :)
MarkusTay63 09-01-07, 12:27 PM	As above, but also that I'm sure if it did change magic in a major way, then it would have been emphasised in the lore. The fact it is nothing more than a footnote from 1E and never elaborated since - leans toward a localised/minor event.However, as I stated above, the plague in Imaskar's (canon) history wiped out many Imaskari, AND lead to their eventual kidnapping of people from other world(s). This gave us the Untherites and Mulhorandi, which in turn gave us Thay... If THAT was the plague, I would say it had MAJOR repercussions down through time. :devil: I think you're looking at it all wrong (no offense) - I think the 1e footnote pertains of the 'building-up' of the current Spellplague (the first instance?), and the older original plague was thousands of years ago. Somehow, somewhere, someone tampered with something AGAIN and released the Spellplague all over AGAIN. The incident discussed earlier, the shattering of the Black Star, could have been the release mechanism, and like any other plague it would start spreading slowly, and not become apparent until it was too late. The problem I have with THAT being the 1e incident is that Dove is said to have smashed the Black Star, and if this is a reference to Dove Falconhand I find it hard to believe a Chosen of Mystra would screw up like that. Unless is was part of Mystra's plan all along.... EDIT: I found this in another thread with a link to RAS's site - don't read if you don't want to be depressed and/or rip all your hair out - The prologue and epilogue of The Orc King are set 100 years into the future of the Realms. Drizzt mentions that the Spellplague has decimated the Sword Coast, but that Mithril Hall survived the worst of it, even though there was chaos and upheaval all around it. It also mentions the Empire of Netheril. It doesn't mention Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, the Lord's Alliance, the Silver Marches, or anything else "civilized" beyond Mithril Hall and the Empire of Netheril. Mithril Hall was specifically mentioned as surviving, but not the Silver Marches, which I think is probably telling. Beyond that Rich Baker mentioned that his next set of novels is going to be based in the Moonsea region, and then mentioned his protagonist being from a very small town in that particular region, which seems to fit the "Points of Light." strategy. Also, there was the very carefully worded comment when people thought that since the Spellplague takes place 10 years in the future that the setting would be starting 4th edition there, and the comment was . . . "no one has said the FRCS is set in 1385," which seems to back up the large jump forward in time. If any of that is true, then we are in for even more major changes then even I at first predicted!!! RAS setting the tone for the future Realms... :nonono:
Bonzai 09-01-07, 03:54 PM	Oooohhh... I like the idea of the spell plague being "The Plague" that almost wiped out the Imaskari. The plague took out all but a few of them, probably the ones where were in other planes or pocket demensions for extended periods are the ones that survived. Considering how proficient they were in that sort of thing, there was enough of them left to barely keep their civilization going. Halaster would have known all about that. Hence his desperation to prevent it from happening again (it's not like leaving undermountain for an extended period was a viable choice for him).
Meldread 09-01-07, 04:12 PM	Ditto. I believe it is related to the Imaskari Plague, and if so it just proves how deadly it is going to be - it nearly brought Imaskar to its knees. In fact, I would argue that it is directly responsible for their destruction - immediately after the plague is when they reached out to get all those slaves. ...and let's not forget that Imaskar was easily Netheril's equal if not its greater in terms of magical knowledge and ability.
Fabius Maximus 09-01-07, 06:14 PM	Oooohhh... I like the idea of the spell plague being "The Plague" that almost wiped out the Imaskari. Me too. Now we have a perfectly valid reason that the Imaskari artificers were really Artificers. :schemes:
Farinal 09-01-07, 08:42 PM	A serie about this Spellplague would be cool. Like Avatar Trilogy.
GothicDan 09-02-07, 06:29 PM	Only not at all like the Avatar trilogy. WotC already said there would be no novels about the events. *Explodes at Markus's post.*
MarkusTay63 09-02-07, 08:50 PM	Fear not, sir Dan, although I found that on RAS's site, it was actually a quote from someone at Enworld. That means that no one official has said anything of the kind. If it is a phony, though, it was written rather well for bulls__t. :(
Meldread 09-02-07, 09:05 PM	Of course, rumors eluded to 4E for a long time with no real evidence or official word... until it was upon us. Really, after going through the whole 4E thing and being constantly told that there will be no 4E, then having it suddenly sprung on us... it suddenly gives all sorts of wild rumors credibility.
GothicDan 09-02-07, 10:48 PM	Meldread, that was actually one of the things I was thinking when they announced 4E, and I wasn't even one of the 4E 'conspirators' ranting on about it.
Dark Wizard 09-03-07, 12:05 AM	Come to think of it, didn't some errant (unestablished and trollish seeming) forum poster pop into these boards a few years ago to confidently reveal the news the Realms' imminent demise. He stated the prediction (based on supposed inside sources) that setting was scheduled for destruction in an apocalypse-type setting-wide meta-arc because WotC planned to drop the setting entirely. If the times given were traced forward, the arrival of FR 4E corresponds roughly to what that poster said. I recall his predictions were similar to the speculation put out on the Spellplague and the 4E transition. The 4E rumors including a massive shake-up of the political dynamic, many and far-reaching major character deaths, a change in the way the setting functioned (magic system change, amongst others), shifts in novel policy, and how WotC handles settings and D&D in general. Makes one wonder.
BadCatMan 09-03-07, 12:16 AM	Yeah, but that always happens. :D
Meldread 09-03-07, 01:14 AM	Heh, that's par for the course for the Realm's. The setting has turned into one giant DC Comic gone bad. Like I said in my previous posts, WotC has already decided to do what they are going to do. We as players cannot change it, so we only have a few options. 1. We can decide if we like the 4E Rules. If we do, we can use the new rules. If not, then we can use 3.5e, 2nd, or some non-D&D ruleset. 2. We can decide if we like the "new" Forgotten Realm's. If we do we can play in the setting. If we don't we can play in the "old" setting, or simply ignore the parts that we do not like. Alternatively we can make our own setting or find another. Those are our only options. There is no point in getting angry, because getting angry or upset isn't going to change anything - no matter what happens. My one and only hope is that WotC moves away from using uber characters in their novels and instead focuses on lower level more localized events. There seems to be a sentiment that the only novels that will sell are those who majorly screw up the Realm's, and novels that contain either Elminster or Drizzt. Low leveling adventurer novels, only please WotC! If you want to do high powered world shattering events - have them done far in the past to fill in holes in historical lore. If you must have absolutely high powered characters take them off of Toril and put them in the Planes where they belong and where they make more sense without upsetting the fabric of the world. Low level stories can be very good. Check out this story (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=763260) about a Commoner PC posted by a DM on the forums.
HassanSabbah 09-03-07, 02:09 AM	A serie about this Spellplague would be cool. Like Avatar Trilogy. I believe they won't do that, they said somewhare something along those lines. The problem with such a serie would be the same that afflicted the Avatar Trilogy: It is an epic event, on the scale of Fall of Netheril, but the novels didn't live up to the promise of the plot. IMO, neither the 'feeling' nor the writing ('literary value') of the series were up to par. I am of the opinion that it's hard to put out something both epic and good. BAris
Eli_the_Tanner 09-03-07, 02:24 AM	However, as I stated above, the plague in Imaskar's (canon) history wiped out many Imaskari, AND lead to their eventual kidnapping of people from other world(s). This gave us the Untherites and Mulhorandi, which in turn gave us Thay... If THAT was the plague, I would say it had MAJOR repercussions down through time. :devil: Hmm....that is a good theory on the original Spellplague, also supports your earliar one about the plague wiping people out. However I'll have to contend that although major for the Imaskari, this was not a global plague. So, relatively speaking, I think there will be a difference between this plague and the last - if only in scale. I think you're looking at it all wrong (no offense) - I think the 1e footnote pertains of the 'building-up' of the current Spellplague (the first instance?), and the older original plague was thousands of years ago. Somehow, somewhere, someone tampered with something AGAIN and released the Spellplague all over AGAIN. The incident discussed earlier, the shattering of the Black Star, could have been the release mechanism, and like any other plague it would start spreading slowly, and not become apparent until it was too late. none taken, In fact I agree with everything you've just said. I think this 'footnote' is definatly referring to a smaller instance of the Spellplague, be it a Catalyst or a merely an adventure hook. The problem I have with THAT being the 1e incident is that Dove is said to have smashed the Black Star, and if this is a reference to Dove Falconhand I find it hard to believe a Chosen of Mystra would screw up like that. I find it quite fitting, actually. Unless is was part of Mystra's plan all along.... She's not known as The Lady of Mysteries for her chaste nature, so she must get it somehow...;) EDIT: I found this in another thread with a link to RAS's site - don't read if you don't want to be depressed and/or rip all your hair out - The prologue and epilogue of The Orc King are set 100 years into the future of the Realms. Drizzt mentions that the Spellplague has decimated the Sword Coast, but that Mithril Hall survived the worst of it, even though there was chaos and upheaval all around it. It also mentions the Empire of Netheril. It doesn't mention Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, the Lord's Alliance, the Silver Marches, or anything else "civilized" beyond Mithril Hall and the Empire of Netheril. Mithril Hall was specifically mentioned as surviving, but not the Silver Marches, which I think is probably telling. Beyond that Rich Baker mentioned that his next set of novels is going to be based in the Moonsea region, and then mentioned his protagonist being from a very small town in that particular region, which seems to fit the "Points of Light." strategy. Also, there was the very carefully worded comment when people thought that since the Spellplague takes place 10 years in the future that the setting would be starting 4th edition there, and the comment was . . . "no one has said the FRCS is set in 1385," which seems to back up the large jump forward in time. If any of that is true, then we are in for even more major changes then even I at first predicted!!! Sounds like Scaremongering to me.
MarkusTay63 09-03-07, 12:27 PM	A couple things - Imaskar was THE big human magical empire at the time, so it would NOT have been as wide spread as it would THIS time out, where magic is better known and there are far more users world-wide. Also, someone pointed out in another thread that the "mad witch" could have simply wanted Dove to know that SHE smashed the Black Star - a moment of clarity, perhaps? Sounds like Scaremongering to me.Up to a point... but several reliable sources did hint at Gencon that MAJOR spoilers were to be revealed about 4e FR in the upcoming The Orc King, which does seem to lend 'some' credence to that statement.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-03-07, 03:24 PM	A couple things - Imaskar was THE big human magical empire at the time, so it would NOT have been as wide spread as it would THIS time out, where magic is better known and there are far more users world-wide. I don't think we actually disagree here, I think we both believe that the coming Spellplague will be far bigger than the last instance. Also, someone pointed out in another thread that the "mad witch" could have simply wanted Dove to know that SHE smashed the Black Star - a moment of clarity, perhaps? I'd like to think that either the chosen are fallible or that Mystra had planned for the plague to be released, whether Dove was aware of this plan or not. Up to a point... but several reliable sources did hint at Gencon that MAJOR spoilers were to be revealed about 4e FR in the upcoming The Orc King, which does seem to lend 'some' credence to that statement. I've not read the prologue/epilogue of the Orc King so I can't comment on it's 'credence' really. As this tidbit mentions of nothing beyond Mithral Hall and only a vague reference to the Empire of Netheril, I think to draw conclusions about the fate of the rest of the realms from it would be a step too far. 100 years is a long time away, placing Drizzt that far in the future as a narrator ensures RAS does not step on too many toes, but also (possibly more importantly for Salvatore) ensures Drizzt's continued survival in the Realms. I think suggesting to people that the next setting is set 100 years in the future, evrywhere has been ravaged by the Spellplague and no civilised nations exist beyond a Dwarven stronghold and a long-dead empire, is coming fairly close to scaremongering.
godbeepit 09-03-07, 10:37 PM	But Eli, as a Hand of Karsus shouldn't you advocate scaremongering? The more unclear the world is, the easier it will be to hide the unification of Karsus. Hell, for all you know Karsus is behind the Spellplague and is using it to A) Bring himself together and B) Get 25th level spells!! I mean, 25 is even bigger than 12!!! Think of Heavy Magic but 13 whole spell levels higher!
Dark Wizard 09-03-07, 11:01 PM	Yes, when in doubt blame or credit Karsus. Primary Human reactant for one of the greatest RSEs in Realms history. :D
Eli_the_Tanner 09-03-07, 11:11 PM	But Eli, as a Hand of Karsus shouldn't you advocate scaremongering? The more unclear the world is, the easier it will be to hide the unification of Karsus. Nay! Lull thy enemies into a false sense of security and ones enemies will undo themselves. Besides we wouldn't want fear unduly directed at anyone besides Karsus himself.:plotting: Anyway, I deal more with the handicrafts side of The Hand of Karsus duties....y'know small soap carvings, festive baskets and the like. Hell, for all you know Karsus is behind the Spellplague and is using it to A) Bring himself together and I am not at liberty to confirm or deny the involvement of Karsus in the coming Spellplague. B) Get 25th level spells!! I mean, 25 is even bigger than 12!!! Think of Heavy Magic but 13 whole spell levels higher! Any magic that diminishes the crowning acheievment of Karsus' work is a stain on the sleeve of any hands of Karsus. However I'm not entirely against the new system of magic, as long as they omit level 12 spells and skip straight from level 11 to level 13 - this should ensure that the great archmages title as the only person to ever successfully cast a Level 12 spell remains.
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 12:13 AM	:: Checks for classified information :: -Carry on...:incog:
godbeepit 09-04-07, 09:20 PM	Anyway, I deal more with the handicrafts side of The Hand of Karsus duties....y'know small soap carvings, festive baskets and the like. Soap carvings? Man, I'm jealous. I want to make soap carvings. Any magic that diminishes the crowning acheievment of Karsus' work is a stain on the sleeve of any hands of Karsus. However I'm not entirely against the new system of magic, as long as they omit level 12 spells and skip straight from level 11 to level 13 - this should ensure that the great archmages title as the only person to ever successfully cast a Level 12 spell remains. Oh, I didn't mean it in that way. I meant that Karsus would be attempting to gain access to these 25th level spells for the personal benefit. As amazing as heavy magic is, think of the power he would wield with an additional thirteen spell levels. :: Checks for classified information :: -Carry on...:incog: Well, seeing as how I'm not dead or my soul devoured yet I must be wrong. Oh well.:rolleyes:
ShadezofDis 09-05-07, 12:09 AM	But Eli, as a Hand of Karsus shouldn't you advocate scaremongering? The more unclear the world is, the easier it will be to hide the unification of Karsus. Young one, now that Mystra 1.0 is out of the picture and Mystra 2.0 doesn't look into the life and times of Mystryl there isn't much actively working against the unification of Karsus. Further, even should they work against the unification it would be of no moment to the Hands.
godbeepit 09-05-07, 08:35 PM	Hmm, that's true. Is anybody besides Ioulaum and Larloch even old enough to know who Karsus is? I mean, perhaps Elminster but I didn't think he was that old. Plus, all written history of the account couldn't be accurately written unless from a deity's standpoint simply because the incident killed everyone who could've known what Karsus did. I mean, I suppose an elf or two saw the flying citadels drop out of the sky, but could they have possibly said that Karsus was at fault? Did Karsus even tell anyone what he was doing? So, perhaps even Ioulaum and Larloch do not even know Karsus was at fault? Perhaps, they thought the inevitable falling of their famed cities was due to the rising phaerimm threat? Thinking even farther, would divination spells even be of any help? The Weave was practically split asunder, it could be construed that any connection to the past through the Weave could also have been severed.
ShadezofDis 09-06-07, 12:01 AM	Anything is really possible. :) Elminster might know due to his interaction with beings who would know. Ioulaum and Larloch both might know because they were there. There may be other surviving Netherese who may or may not know. There may be other divine agents who are aware of the story. There may be all sorts of stuff. But we don't actually know, AFAIK. ;D
Lexia_Durothil 09-06-07, 12:44 PM	Also during this time current plots have been brought to their logical conclusions and new ones have been created. In effect the Forgotten Realm's will have its edges smoothed over and a new polish on it - making it as if it were brand new. That's the systematic destruction of pretty much the entire Realms. If they do that, they need to stop calling it the Forgotten Realms - maybe start calling it the Other Realms or something. Really, if you're going to rip everything off the face of the planet, why not just create another new campaign setting entirely? It's what that would effectively do.
MarkusTay63 09-06-07, 03:09 PM	At least one designer has officially said that they would be concentrating on the "Forgotten" part in FR 4e. :(
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 06:18 PM	At least one designer has officially said that they would be concentrating on the "Forgotten" part in FR 4e. :( -In what context? Having the status quo blasted away, and replaced by something totally new is, in effect, making what we know "forgotten". ;)
MarkusTay63 09-06-07, 06:29 PM	I read it over at the 'Keep, but it was something along the lines of "We are bringing back the 'Forgotten' in the Forgotten Realms". That could mean any number of things, including a 4e concentration on all of the portals that were spread all over Toril. Who knows? In a couple weeks we will have the first of our answers...
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 12:30 PM	Well, it seems my question is answered - It appears Toril 'may' be re-joining another world called 'Abeir'; a world which Toril had much greater connectivity to in the past. BTW, it looks as if a great many of my ORIGINAL predictions are coming true - the mages are all going to go mad. You may now cast down the false prophet Karsus and begin to worship me anew. :D
Andyr 09-08-07, 01:10 PM	Well, it seems my question is answered - Toril will be re-joining another world called 'Abeir'; a world it hhad much greater connectivity to in the past. I thought something like this might happen after the Orc King prologue--where is your source that says the world is 'Abeir', and that connectivity was greater in the past? Or is this speculation? If you're right, perhaps Abeir could be linked to the Fey--a parallel world they inhabit, perhaps where the Seelie and Unseelie Courts are in the Realms, since there seem to be a lot of them in Faerun and it is a high-magic setting.
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 01:19 PM	I forget exactly where, but I think it was soemthing said by Ed Greenwood, concerning why the Abeir in Abeir-Toril was all but 'forgotten'. Also, there is some dimensional interconnectivity going on in Darkvision - something about "the barriers breaking down". Also - there is a rather esoteric reference to the LeShay.... :thinks: I should finish it tonight.
Tyberian 09-08-07, 02:03 PM	I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on what will be the availability of magic in Faerun after the spell plague? I don't believe they could lower the power level of magic and still call it Forgotten Realms. However, if they greatly reduced the number of wizards, sorcerors, and the like in the gene pool, it would leave marauding humanoids to run wild and armies would regain importance. Needless to say both of those are staples of fantasy. Thoughts or suggestions, anyone?
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 02:18 PM	When I first started figuring what might be, I hit on the premise that the 'old way' of casting spells would drive mages insane. Ergo, they would have to find a 'new way' of casting to mitigate the effects of the Spell Plague. Hence, we have our 4e magic system. Everyone starts from scratch - even guys like Halaster and Szass Tam. You switch, or DIE. It would also explain why the few surviving 'heavy-hitters' are not as active in the future, like Elminster.
MarkHall 09-08-07, 02:49 PM	Reminds me of Earthdawn, Markus. Astral Space (where they draw their magical energy from) became polluted, so they developed filters, called spell matricies, to allow them to keep a layer between them and astral space. Now, you can cast without that, but you're more likely to be corrupted by astral space.
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 03:13 PM	Similar, perhaps, but more like the opposite in FR's case. We have always (AFAIK) cast through a filter (the Weave), so maybe the new way is really the older, more primitive way? The way that was first researched by the Ssarukh, Batrachi, and Aeree when they penned the Nether Scrolls? ;)
Fabius Maximus 09-08-07, 06:20 PM	So, spellcasting will be more like the Netherese Arcanist's way, you mean? As long as there won't pop up a whole generation of Spellfire users, I'll be conten.
ShadezofDis 09-08-07, 06:41 PM	Well, it seems my question is answered - Toril will be re-joining another world called 'Abeir'; a world ithhad much greater connectivity to in the past. BTW, it looks as if a great many of my ORIGINAL predictions are coming true - the mages are all going to go mad. You may now cast down the false prophet Karsus and begin to worship me anew. :D Dude, when making statements like this it is very important to include you're source. Just link the url and that'd be great. :)
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 07:23 PM	I was all over the Internet this morning (and boy, are my legs tired ;) ), and I searcherd high and low for the reference (for you). Would you believe, I found the pertinent info right back here in another thread - - New ones have arisen (Netheril, the aboleths, and a "discordant and disastrous joining of two worlds") - page 10. I wonder about the last one of this, but it seems to coincide with Ed Greenwood's comments in the final issue of Dragon (along the lines of "most scholars drop the name Abeir from Abeir-Toril, for reasons which will soon become apparant"). The question is, which two worlds?It was someone else's musing concerning something cryptic Ed has recently stated. Satisfied? :D Dragon magazine is still canon, last I heard. ;) Hmmmm... Abeir-ron? :eek: @Fabius Maximus - No, no... it will be like it was THOUSANDS of years BEFORE Netheril... or even Imaskar (although I have a funny feeling the early Imaskari had similar problems with that 'plague' of theirs)
GothicDan 09-08-07, 07:45 PM	Abeir-Toril... Gasp!
Eli_the_Tanner 09-08-07, 10:00 PM	It appears Toril 'may' be re-joining another world called 'Abeir'; a world which Toril had much greater connectivity to in the past. I can confirm this aswell, I've recently aquired the last issue of Dragon as many others have I'm sure, here is what it said on pg 28, Unsolved Mysteries of D&D: What is Abeir (of Abeir-Toril)? We know what Toril is but Abeir? Jeff Grubb (called by Ed "the original and superb Realms designer") coined the name Abeir-Toril for the planet of the Realms, because Ed postulated that most inhabitants of the continent he'd (largely) detailed had only a hazy idea that other landmasses existed (beyond small islands, that is), and so only had a name for their continent (Faerun, which meant "home" in one of the old languages of the Realms). "Over the years," adds Ed, "most designers and gamers have shortened Abeir-Toril to just Toril, for reasons that will soon become apparent..." You may now cast down the false prophet Karsus and begin to worship me anew. :D I'm too far gone now Markus, I doubt I could turn back even if I wanted to.
Straploknight 09-08-07, 10:13 PM	Lol, everybody knows that Abeir Toril is the planet where in Faerun exsists right? There is no Abeir seperate from a Toril, its one and the same.
Dark Wizard 09-08-07, 11:03 PM	Hearing this speculation of the "world" Abeir merging with Toril hasn't annoyed me nearly as much as I thought it should have. I can comfortably treat this as a new setting. Toril as we know it is dead. The Faerun as we grew to know and love has passed. The Forgotten Realms as we knew them are gone. The Forgotten Realms of 4E will virtually be a new setting. Other franchises have done this before and survived (though some have not so tread carefully Wizards). The old Realms could be the equivalent of the golden age and the upcoming product entity could be something of a silver age of sorts. I just hope there is a clear division and this isn't executed in a half-ass, half-Baked effort.
GothicDan 09-08-07, 11:07 PM	Agreed. I sincerely despise half-attempts at anything (which I feel WotC did a lot, but I hope they won't do again). I'll never have a reason to buy the rules books (since as I said, I've never encountered people interested in gaming in the Realms - most are into Shadowrun or WoD at this point, anyway), but I'd certainly buy the books for the setting if they were fun.
MarkusTay63 09-08-07, 11:15 PM	@Dan - Hey, now that FR is becoming WoD, you can get some players. :P @Dark Wizard - I couldn't agree with you more. I would suggest that we wait and see what is done with Insider when the first isuue comes out next month. If they screw THAT up, then I just know this thing will be a giant fiasco. The big problem is that they are not just making changes to the setting, they are changing it's FLAVOR. This is untried territory in FR - even after all the RSE's and ToT we still had the same old Realms. I'm too far gone now Markus, I doubt I could turn back even if I wanted to.There is always hope, young one. Even Anakin found his inner light.... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/darthvader.gif = :angelhide Lol, everybody knows that Abeir Toril is the planet where in Faerun exsists right? There is no Abeir seperate from a Toril, its one and the same.That's what WE thought too......
The Ubbergeek 09-08-07, 11:19 PM	Hearing this speculation of the "world" Abeir merging with Toril hasn't annoyed me nearly as much as I thought it should have. I can comfortably treat this as a new setting. Toril as we know it is dead. The Faerun as we grew to know and love has passed. The Forgotten Realms as we knew them are gone. The Forgotten Realms of 4E will virtually be a new setting. Other franchises have done this before and survived (though some have not so tread carefully Wizards). The old Realms could be the equivalent of the golden age and the upcoming product entity could be something of a silver age of sorts. I just hope there is a clear division and this isn't executed in a half-ass, half-Baked effort. At the end... The realms will still always be the realms. A pseudo follower of Lathander, rotten to the core and decadantly evil, will NEVER keep his powers - like in Eberron. There is no great army of evil dragons let by Tiamat, and there won't be - that is (was) dragonlance. Aber-Toril won't go to waste, Chauntea's life drained by mages - like Dark Sun. And so on. The grognards may have disliked that War - it was still Greyhawk. The base tropes, the primordials of the setting still where there. And so it will be in this case. A different age maybe, but still... it's Faerun.
GothicDan 09-08-07, 11:22 PM	Ubbergeek, you were talking about ideals. I think that's more of what we are talking about here - the IDEALS of Faerun that we liked, not necessarily the soulless constituents.
Mr_Miscellany 09-09-07, 01:48 AM	The big problem is that they are not just making changes to the setting, they are changing it's FLAVOR...... Markus, I think you're starting to mistake your speculation for facts. "Chill, turbo." ..as Miss Miscellany likes to say. Let things play out before you cry foul. Otherwise you're in the role of Peter*, but all grown up. ;) *Peter and the Wolf
captaincarot 09-09-07, 03:26 AM	well if toril is going to be conjoining with some other realm called abeir, then what's the betting that this other forgotten realm has a disturbingly convoluted history since their last conjoinment which makes at appear just like eberon. then we can have warforged and shifters flooding into the realms. coupled with all the technology of eberon, this would really improve the realms from it's rather backward state of affairs that it currently exists in. make it much more up to date after all it's 20 years old.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 09:19 AM	Markus, I think you're starting to mistake your speculation for facts. "Chill, turbo." ..as Miss Miscellany likes to say. Let things play out before you cry foul. Otherwise you're in the role of Peter*, but all grown up. -I don't see how MT just said anything false. What is said is right on- "they are changing it's FLAVOR......" -Compare the confirmed facts we have with the current Realms, and you'll see a vast difference. The setting seems to be sailing into uncharted waters.
kissaki 09-09-07, 11:29 AM	Hello, guys! I'm new here. Very nice discussion! I've just read 'The Orc King' sample chapter (http://p197.ezboard.com/brasalvatoreforums). Currently, I'm rather busy scraping up the scattered pieces of my brain while violently searching for some semblance of sanity with the use of the search engine! Its what lead me to this thread... :weep: I hope you guys will find it relevant to your conversations.
Mr_Miscellany 09-09-07, 01:00 PM	-Compare the confirmed facts we have with the current Realms, and you'll see a vast difference. ..penchant for overstatement: intact. :P The setting seems to be sailing into uncharted waters. ...which is what the Realms does, and always has throughout its history. Since you stated the waters are uncharted, it follows you can't possibly know if there will be more of the same or different, thus my point stands. Let's ride it out. Full speed into the storm, I say. Just don't claim the ships are all sunk until you've actually made the voyage.
SgtAnjay 09-09-07, 01:00 PM	Welcome aboard, Kissaki! Now where were we.....:lightbulb oh yeah Abandon ship! Abandon ship! :P
The Ubbergeek 09-09-07, 01:11 PM	Ubbergeek, you were talking about ideals. I think that's more of what we are talking about here - the IDEALS of Faerun that we liked, not necessarily the soulless constituents. It's also what I means about. Look at Dragonlance, by example. The ages are quite different, it still have bits and also soul, details and the flesh, etc. Shadowrun survived the Comet troubles, Dragonlance this new war, Greyhawk that big War, etc.... At the core, it's the same world(s). They are not static. Not eevn Eberron who is reluctant to move dates.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-09-07, 01:25 PM	Does anyone else think that Abeir and Eber(ron) sound eeirly close to each other. Eber-Toril?? Perhaps WotC is trying to make Eberron the Forgotten part of the realms they've been hinting at. It starts to make more sense when you join in the other points about Warforged and Changelings becoming core and Drizzt's reflections on "a disatarous joining of two worlds". This would all make an intersting 'What if?' Fan-fic but if this happens I think we can safetly say Forgotten Realms has been severly compromised. There is always hope, young one. Even Anakin found his inner light.... http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/emprs_palpatine/smilies/wave3/darthvader.gif = :angelhide I'm afraid not until our epic duel for redemption before the feet of Lord Karsus himself - where, if defeated, I will emerge a crusty, shadow of my former self. .......... :emp:......... :devil::duel::angel:
Andyr 09-09-07, 01:36 PM	Hello, guys! I'm new here. Very nice discussion! I've just read 'The Orc King' sample chapter (http://p197.ezboard.com/brasalvatoreforums). Currently, I'm rather busy scraping up the scattered pieces of my brain while violently searching for some semblance of sanity with the use of the search engine! Its what lead me to this thread... :weep: I hope you guys will find it relevant to your conversations. Welcome to the boards. :) I've tried to collate the info from that sample chapter into this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=920211
captaincarot 09-09-07, 01:36 PM	how come people keep saying things i said before in different places it's been happening all day and it's freaking me out.
Andyr 09-09-07, 01:40 PM	I think it is probably a case of not much 4E information being available, and a lot of people being interested in it. If you mean stuff off these message boards, then I don't know.
captaincarot 09-09-07, 01:46 PM	I think it is probably a case of not much 4E information being available, and a lot of people being interested in it. If you mean stuff off these message boards, then I don't know. i do mean things on here and it's making me question my sanity, because they keep saying it like i haven't said it before, which makes me wonder if i've really said it or just dreamed saying it. then i have to go searching for waht i've said to make sure i'm not hallucinating.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-09-07, 01:54 PM	With little information and alot of opinions, invariably people will be drawaing similar conclusions. Take stock in the fact that others are thinking along the same lines as you.
MarkusTay63 09-09-07, 02:13 PM	Does anyone else think that Abeir and Eber(ron) sound eeirly close to each other. Eber-Toril?? Hey!!! Foul! I already said just as much in another thread. Perhaps both were known as Abeirron-Toril, and both names bacame corrupted down through the millenia? That is a wild guess by the way, so don't put much stock in it... Let's ride it out. Full speed into the storm, I say. Just don't claim the ships are all sunk until you've actually made the voyage.So I guess that makes us rats fleeing a sinking ship... :rolleyes: I don't jump to conclusions, I make educated guesses based on facts. When I pasted the quote that the Orc King's prologue and epilogue were going to be set a century from now two weeks ago, people thought I was rumour-mongering and just plain wrong. Guess what? :smirk: I read everything that is being said (there are at least a dozen blogs by designers and authors), and sift through it. 90% is garbage... but when you hear a similar thing said by several people then you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. When both Drow of the Underdark and Undermountain were released as 'core' products, I espoused the notion that perhaps 4e was on its way and FR was going to be merged with the 'core' rules - that was two months ago Guess what? :smirk: Believe me, I don't want to be right this time... but I usually am. Drizzt says the following in the spoiler - “Gone!” Drizzt shouted. “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. I have watched once safe trails revert to wilderness, and have walked a dozen-dozen communities that you will never know. They are gone now, lost to the Spellplague or worse! Where are the benevolent gods? Where is the refuge from the tumult of a world gone mad? Where are the candles to chase away the darkness?” Doesn't that sound VERY MUCH like the 'points of Light' cr@p we were handed at Gencon? I'm not saying the new direction the setting is taking is a bad thing, and perhaps in the long run it will be even more fun to play in... But it doesn't sound like the Realms we know. Before, your characters worked with the Harpers to stop the Zhentarrim from sabotaging a Thayan Enclave in Westgate, because there was a Harper agent in the Enclave relaying information concerning The vampire Manshoon, who detects the plot and contacts his Rundeen allies, but the Moonstars prevent the Rundeen agents from reaching... You get the idea. The Realms was about plots within plots, wheels within wheels, and there was always someone bigger and badder pulling the strings after you took out the guy you 'thought' was in control. It had a grand, epic feel to it... that even the little things the PCs did mattered in the greater scheme of things. Now, it seems that epic feel is gone. According to Drizzt, EVERYTHING our PCs have ever done didn't matter AT ALL. We wasted our time - everyone's dead anyway; WE SAVED NOTHING! It is that feeling of futality in Drizzt's speach that I feel is the greatest threat the realms has ever faced. Now, the 'epic' adventure your PCs can hope for is helping a farmer get a wagonload of Orcish Turnips up to Silverymoon before the winter snows set in. You'll still get plenty of adventure, since you will be traveling through a countryside riddled with unsavory beasties... Gee... non-stop combat with a set of dumbed-down rules - that sounds like loads of fun to me. :bored: The sense of 'true' accomplishment is gone. We've gone from "making the Realms a better place" to "I hope we survive". If that isn't a change in flavor, then I don't know what is... :(
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 04:26 PM	Doesn't that sound VERY MUCH like the 'points of Light' cr@p we were handed at Gencon? -What is this 'Points of Light' thing that seems to keep on popping up lately? From what I've gathered, it seems to be some kind of new...direction, where evil is everywhere, and good only exists in small bastions. What's going on? Does anyone else think that Abeir and Eber(ron) sound eeirly close to each other. Eber-Toril?? -While I don't think that Eberron and the Forgotten Realms are going to merging anytime soon (never at all, actually), I do recall Ed mentioning that more information will be revealed about the 'Abeir' in 'Abeir-Toril' in the future. NDAs prevented him from saying anything more at the time. I'm afraid not until our epic duel for redemption before the feet of Lord Karsus himself - where, if defeated, I will emerge a crusty, shadow of my former self. -No need for epic duels, don't worry. ..penchant for overstatement: intact. :P -Skirt the issue all you want, but MT's statement remains true. ...which is what the Realms does, and always has throughout its history. Since you stated the waters are uncharted, it follows you can't possibly know if there will be more of the same or different, thus my point stands. Let's ride it out. Full speed into the storm, I say. Just don't claim the ships are all sunk until you've actually made the voyage. -My grandfather, an immigrant from the Ukraine, came to the United States, and worked as a construction worker. He worked as one of the many foreman in the construction of Towers 1 and 2 of the World Trade Center. Shortly after September 11th, my father remarked to me that, while he was working on the project, my grandfather would tell my father and my aunts that, because of the unorthodox structural design of the towers, they'd never last long if "push came to shove", literally. Lo and behold... -Something does not need to be currently on fire to know that it is going to imminently light up. One does not need to sail on the boat with holes on it's bottom to know that it is going to sink.
Dark Wizard 09-09-07, 05:19 PM	-What is this 'Points of Light' thing that seems to keep on popping up lately? From what I've gathered, it seems to be some kind of new...direction, where evil is everywhere, and good only exists in small bastions. What's going on? Everyone is referring to this Design and Development post by Rich Baker: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070829a&authentic=true The Dungeons & Dragons game assumes many things about its setting: The world is populated by a variety of intelligent races, strange monsters lurk on other planes, ancient empires have left ruins across the face of the world, and so on. But one of the new key conceits about the D&D world is simply this: Civilized folk live in small, isolated points of light scattered across a big, dark, dangerous world. Most of the world is monster-haunted wilderness. The centers of civilization are few and far between, and the world isn’t carved up between nation-states that jealously enforce their borders. A few difficult and dangerous roads tenuously link neighboring cities together, but if you stray from them you quickly find yourself immersed in goblin-infested forests, haunted barrowfields, desolate hills and marshes, and monster-hunted badlands. Anything could be waiting down that old overgrown dwarf-built road: a den of ogre marauders, a forgotten tower where a lamia awaits careless travelers, a troll’s cave, a lonely human village under the sway of a demonic cult, or a black wood where shadows and ghosts thirst for the blood of the living. Given the perilous nature of the world around the small islands of civilization, many adventures revolve around venturing into the wild lands. For example: * Roads are often closed by bandits, marauders such as goblins or gnolls, or hungry monsters such as griffons or dragons. The simple mission of driving off whomever or whatever is preying on unfortunate travelers is how many young heroes begin their careers. * Since towns and villages do not stay in close contact, it’s easy for all sorts of evils to befall a settlement without anyone noticing for a long time. A village might be terrorized by a pack of werewolves or enslaved by an evil wizard, and no one else would know until adventurers stumbled into the situation. * Many small settlements and strongholds are founded, flourish for a time, and then fall into darkness. The wild lands are filled with forgotten towers, abandoned towns, haunted castles, and ruined temples. Even people living only a few miles away from such places might know them only by rumor and legend. The common folk of the world look upon the wild lands with dread. Few people are widely traveled—even the most ambitious merchant is careful to stick to better-known roads. The lands between towns or homesteads are wide and empty. It might be safe enough within a day’s ride of a city or an hour’s walk of a village, but go beyond that and you are taking your life into your hands. People are scared of what might be waiting in the old forest or beyond the barren hills at the far end of the valley, because whatever is out there is most likely hungry and hostile. Striking off into untraveled lands is something only heroes and adventurers do. Another implication of this basic conceit of the world is that there is very little in the way of authority to deal with raiders and marauders, outbreaks of demon worship, rampaging monsters, deadly hauntings, or similar local problems. Settlements afflicted by troubles can only hope for a band of heroes to arrive and set things right. If there is a kingdom beyond the town’s walls, it’s still largely covered by unexplored forest and desolate hills where evil folk gather. The king’s soldiers might do a passable job of keeping the lands within a few miles of his castle free of monsters and bandits, but most of the realm’s outlying towns and villages are on their own. In such a world, adventurers are aberrant. Commoners view them as brave at best, and insane at worst. But such a world is rife with the possibility for adventure, and no true hero will ever lack for a villain to vanquish or a quest to pursue. However, Rich also said this on his message blog: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13619017&postcount=6 One quick point of clarification I'd like to make... Don't assume that we're going to apply the 'Points of Light' conceit to existing campaign worlds. I think Realms and Eberron would prosper if they got just a little more points-of-lightish, but we're not going to overthrow worlds with that much breadth and history.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 06:54 PM	-Ah, so I was in the ballpark. Thanks for clearing that up, DW. -So, basically the new generic D&D setting is going to be a generic world filled with evil, where good exists in small, cloistered settlements, not daring to leave. Well, while the concept, to me, seems very childish, it is in its infancy. It has potential to grow and get better. And, it's not going to directly be imported into the Realms, so... -I don't like Richard Baker very much. It's not that I wouldn't, you know, help the guy if he needed help, but I don't like the direction the Realms, and D&D in general has been going during his time as "Head D&D Guy".
Eli_the_Tanner 09-09-07, 08:08 PM	I think the last quote from Rich Baker that Dark Wizard provided certainly helps to reassure us somewhat about the effect such 'initiatives' will have on the Realms.
The Ubbergeek 09-09-07, 08:31 PM	Never forget that the points of light was not enunciated for the classic settings - and Eberron, but the generic mini-world used in base, default new edition (and perhaps a future new setting). And then, you know that FR haters complain that good guys are ominpresent and rule out.. exagerated and wrong, but it have a kernel of demi-truth; FR 3,X shown an evil who gainned some more strenght.
GothicDan 09-09-07, 10:02 PM	No. It just took the evil plots out of the hands of the DM and put them into play. It was always assumed it would be the DM moving all of the evil chess pieces around, in previous editions. I preferred this - it gave FR a different feel than DL. Both of which were good, mind you, but different. It was strewn with 'rumors and hints,' which Ed loves oh so much, for YOU to do with as you wished.
MarkusTay63 09-09-07, 11:00 PM	I really don't think that the 'Abeir' refers to Eberron, even though I pointed that phoenetic similarity out first. That was just a 'random musing' on my part (do to the addition of Warforged and changelings in 'core'). More likely, I feel the 'Abeir' will have to do with a return of the long lost Fey Creator race (or their progeny) - just a hunch, nothing more. That 'merging-worlds' thing has me as confused as anyone else, truth be told. One thing I would like to point out - the prologue of the Orc King has obviously put the lie to Rich Baker's second quoted statement above. Not changing much? Yeah... riiiight.......:rolleyes:
Dark Wizard 09-09-07, 11:03 PM	It depends on one's definition of "just a little more" is exactly. I await the good things that could come from this, a return of parts of the Realms closer to their origins. Mulhorand as a mysterious land in the hands of deadly cults and dark gods ala Stygia, but not exactly. Thay as a mysterious, malicious eastern power. Sembia as an unknown. I wouldn't mind a change of the Moonshaes to increase connectivity with the Realms, figure they've sat off the busy Sword Coast for years but rarely do we hear a word about them. And the other continents should get their overhaul. Maybe Abeir has continents that aren't direct translations of Earth nations and continents. The other continents can serve as independent settings examples in their respective non-Western fantasy sourcebooks. Everyone wins. Think about it, FR now could have many continents connected to Faerun that are completely blank slates for WotC to develop. Imagine Faerun but something the size closer to Pangaea. The Realms might never "run out of space" again.
Mr_Miscellany 09-09-07, 11:13 PM	No. It just took the evil plots out of the hands of the DM and put them into play. ????? Hardly. It ended up giving the bad guys teeth again, after TSRs bungling/mishandling of evil in FR. It was always assumed it would be the DM moving all of the evil chess pieces around, in previous editions. 3E FR assumes this just the same as previous editions. If anything, 3E FR does more than any other edition to push the idea that evil is very active and very influential in the Realms (ergo, the DM needs to be pushing evil forward for the PCs to confront and put a stop to).
Eli_the_Tanner 09-09-07, 11:28 PM	More likely, I feel the 'Abeir' will have to do with a return of the long lost Fey Creator race (or their progeny) - just a hunch, nothing more. There was a mention of LeShay somewhere, I can't for the life of me remember who posted it though. So I guess that makes this point rather redundant now.:( I must remember Citation! Citation! Citation! That 'merging-worlds' thing has me as confused as anyone else, truth be told. I was wondering about the 'disasterous' part of this merging. Does that mean the attempt failed disasterously or that it's success resulted in a disaster, it doesn't neccesarily mean that two worlds have merged - just that it was a disaster. I beginning to wonder if this slow trickiling of information isn't more harmful to our sanity than if we were suddenly overwhelmed with a new edition. I know the designers wanted us to give us time to get used to the idea of a new edition but it seems to be turning more people off the idea than on. Perhaps this should be a short, sharp, shock which people can then come to terms with once done.
Mr_Miscellany 09-09-07, 11:35 PM	MT, there is nothing in your expanded explanation of your thinking that gives good reason to believe any of the claims you make. For example: The notion that anything a PC has done has been nullified by what might come is patently ridiculous. Unless, like many here, you're a slave to canon and think if WotC prints something that contradicts your campaign it must mean your campaign has to be revised to match. Otherwise, you've nothing to worry about. :sigh: Now, FWIW, like you (perhaps) I’m worried at the sound of things. Eric Boyd’s words at GenCon about the spellplague being rooted in prior lore aren’t doing as much as they once did for me to calm these fears. Ed’s advice to accept it and move on seem less sagely. I don’t want another ToT-like event (that is, a true RSE; not the pidly stuff people point at and whine about today). But, I’m not going to jump to conclusions either, because we don’t know when the 4E FRCS timeline will start. Until then, or until more actual facts come out, the claims of ‘flavor change’ and whatnot are so much self-important bellyaching.
BadCatMan 09-09-07, 11:35 PM	I don't think they're going to mess with Eberron, WotC's darling new child that they haven't, well, abused yet, to carry the analogy to it's unfortunate end. If we wanted to be silly, we could suggest that the Abeil, the bee-people of MM2, are going to be invading and taking back their world.
Dark Wizard 09-09-07, 11:44 PM	They could be the next Githyanki or the new Ethergaunts. Death or slavery to the Primers.
Grimslade2001 09-09-07, 11:47 PM	The prologue from The Orc King reminded me of the flavor of the 1E grey box. More of an impression really. What would really be changing from now? Luskan obviously. ;) Sembia? It's already in a world of hurt. Thay? Mulhorand? Civil war or war between the two was likely. Not too suprising really would have happened without a RSE. Plus, Drizzt is prone to histrionics and a little hyperbole. The flavor of FR should be intact. Lots of cities and Kingdoms with monster problems. Cult of the Dragon is still causing trouble no doubt. The Zhents will be taking advantage of the chaos from the spellplague. Harpers will be opposing enemies of the balance. Who knows maybe they'll revert the reclaimation of Myth Drannor? Looking at a current map of the Realms, there is a lot of wilderness compared to civilization. Lots of 'dark' places sprinkled with the 'light' of cities and roads. Tons of villains and evil organizations. Isn't every adventure published for FR about a Dale in trouble, cut off from the rest of the world?:rolleyes: A ton of intrigue exists amongst the city states and kingdoms, just as there will be in 4E. The 'social combat' rules will give intrigue campaigns a boost. The flavor is there and it will be good.
MarkusTay63 09-09-07, 11:50 PM	You know, I never thought of it that way - Drizzt is a bit of a whiner. And besides, those Five-thousand people would have been dead a century later either way. :P I was wondering about the 'disasterous' part of this merging. Does that mean the attempt failed disasterously or that it's success resulted in a disaster, it doesn't neccesarily mean that two worlds have merged - just that it was a disaster. It looked like this - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/Crisis1.jpg It may have been me, once again, talking about the LeShay in the 'Eladrin' thread. I've just seen a few possibly connected Fey-related things mentioned recently, in novels and on forums, so it got me thinking along these lines. Nothing concrete, I assure you.
Mr_Miscellany 09-09-07, 11:58 PM	because of the unorthodox structural design of the towers, they'd never last long if "push came to shove", literally. Lo and behold... ...the towers came down due to the temperature from the jet-fuel fire melting various structural members in those sections that were struck. But, if you're smart enough to divine the precise future from all the little we've seen, then don't let me stop you from believing. Oh, and I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you, if you have a moment. It's really there, believe me. That should me enough for you, right? :P
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 12:06 AM	Oh, and I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you, if you have a moment. It's really there, believe me. That should me enough for you, right?So you've heard about the earthquake too, huh? You really shouldn't be calling it 'Oceanfront' for another four years, though.... :rolleyes: I will agree the tower argument was a wee bit weird, but you should try to be less condescending when you post.
Dark Wizard 09-10-07, 12:23 AM	Hindsight vs. Foresight.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-10-07, 12:27 AM	Another thing we are assuming is that the "merging of two worlds" is Toril and another world. It equally could be the merging of Greyhawk and Eberron or not even planetry 'worlds' but rather worlds in the much wider context. For instance the meging of the Shadow world and Real world or a planar merging of worlds (roll on planescape). On a more Drizztian level this could just mean a merging of orcish and human worlds - a disatarous meeting of 'cultural' worlds. Too many possibilities to count really, these sound-bites and tidbits can work on so many levels that they can easily be blown to proportions too large or too small. I say we speculate the death out of all these sneak-peeks so that when the truth does emerge it'll seem alot less 'Realms-shattering' than it could have been. :)
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:35 AM	On a more Drizztian level this could just mean a merging of orcish and human worlds - a disatarous meeting of 'cultural' worlds. -An interesting thought, that.
Mr_Miscellany 09-10-07, 02:56 AM	--Oh, and I've got a certain appendage that you can suck. I don't know if Mrs. Misc would like that, though, and, it would be pretty awkward for me... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Soooooo many openings here....must resist all urges to make the kill! Phew, that was close. If you can't play ***-for-tat, may a WizO yank you from the game! ;) :::::::::::::::::::: Check my sig. Best, most lucid thinking on the subject of 4E FR that I've seen in a long while (next to Eli's most thoughtful post just above).
GothicDan 09-10-07, 10:10 AM	Boys do it better. Uh... Hi, guys. How you doin'?
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 12:04 PM	Eeeeeeeeeewwwww :yuck: Play nice guys... but not THAT nice. :rolleyes: BACK ON TOPIC: The merging of two worlds could refer to a cultural thing, but then I think it was worded EXACTLY that way as a red herring. Perhaps, as some have said, Wizards is purposely leading us astray? That, of course, would require a great deal of cleverness on their part, though. :bored: The 'Doomsday Scenario' presented to us in that spoiler is very frightening... maybe TOO frightening. Have they finally learned from the past? Do they now realize people will hate ANY change, so they are now making it seem worse then it is so that we will accept the REAL changes happily? That would be brilliant (dis-information is one of the most important tools in espionage, even corporate), but I just don't see a toy company having that sort of savy. But there is always hope, "like candles in the darkness..." ;)
ShadezofDis 09-10-07, 12:45 PM	For example: The notion that anything a PC has done has been nullified by what might come is patently ridiculous. Unless, like many here, you're a slave to canon and think if WotC prints something that contradicts your campaign it must mean your campaign has to be revised to match. Otherwise, you've nothing to worry about. Except for the whole "future lore will be null and void for my game and I just don't have the time to figure out what's happening in the greater world if I have to omit various plots that WotC has created." Which is what my problem is and why I've had to hyper focus on both areas that WotC hasn't really touched (which is why my game is based in Turmish) and I've had to keep the campaign relatively low leveled and focused on the area the PCs are in. Sure I would like to have the PCs travel about the world, but with the various BHE (big huge events, may not be "Realms shattering" but they're certainly "Realms changing") I don't really know how things have played out and I don't have the time to develop these things on my own. It might take me a day to come up with the stats, it takes me weeks to come up with the story (in order to make sure I've dotted my Is and crossed my Ts, if that makes sense). Now, FWIW, like you (perhaps) I’m worried at the sound of things. Eric Boyd’s words at GenCon about the spellplague being rooted in prior lore aren’t doing as much as they once did for me to calm these fears. Ed’s advice to accept it and move on seem less sagely. I'm going to try and stay on the fence until an official book is published, I'll take a look at that book and see if it will fit in with my Realms or if it will be useful for my Realms, if not then I'll be very disappointed but it won't be the end of the world, just the end of easy to pick out and run with plots. (which goes back to the whole "it takes more time to develop the story than to develop the stats") I don’t want another ToT-like event (that is, a true RSE; not the pidly stuff people point at and whine about today). They would be pidly if there was some sort of resolution for it. I see no real effect from the drought the Shades caused, I see no real effect from the whole Shades return, I see no real effect from the Draco Rage, I see no real effect from the meteor thing, ect ect ect. Heck, I barely see any effect from the Sythillian Empire and then the bug wars after that. I could be missing the books with that lore in it, but those events really should have a bigger impact in the Realms than "Oh, by the way, the face of Amn changed. No, no, no, your merchandise will still get from Waterdeep to Calimshan, not a problem, for some reason it's still pretty damned easy to do." But, I’m not going to jump to conclusions either, because we don’t know when the 4E FRCS timeline will start. Until then, or until more actual facts come out, the claims of ‘flavor change’ and whatnot are so much self-important bellyaching. I agree with the general idea here, it's just the condescending attitude that turns my stomach.
ShadezofDis 09-10-07, 12:46 PM	Oh, and I do think you're going to give yourself an aneurysm Markus. ;)
DarkSongKnight 09-10-07, 12:59 PM	But there is always hope, "like candles in the darkness..." ;) "A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow." So saith Eilistraee, a great example of a candle in darkness (though that candle is flickering now). But it seems that the Realms Above are going to get darker... My bet is that the Spellplague (and Crescent blade) has a less than savory effect on Qilue, along with all the other Chosen of Mystra. Mystra might die, again! *gasp* Shocker! Attaching oneself to a deity to getting to be a bigger pain with each RSE.
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 01:17 PM	Oh, and I do think you're going to give yourself an aneurysm Markus. ;)Nahhh... I really have nothing better to do with my time these days. :rolleyes: That last post made me think of something funny - the Gondsmen should whip up a 'digital' board to mount under Temple of... for Mystra's churches. It must be a pain in the rump to have to change a big stone sign every few years. :D
David E 09-10-07, 01:22 PM	It seems like a good time to remind everyone that the the prologue of The Orc King is set a hundred years in the future, whereas the new FRCS is going to be set, IIRC, only ten or fifteen years in the future. So all of these "flavor changes" (which honestly I think it is way too soon to be worrying about) aren't going to happen for another ten editions of the Realms.
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 01:28 PM	And look at the bright side, we know to avoid Luskan now.... ;)
Reneshat 09-11-07, 02:28 AM	It seems like a good time to remind everyone that the the prologue of The Orc King is set a hundred years in the future, whereas the new FRCS is going to be set, IIRC, only ten or fifteen years in the future. So all of these "flavor changes" (which honestly I think it is way too soon to be worrying about) aren't going to happen for another ten editions of the Realms. We don't actually know how far ahead the new FRCS is going to be. They won't give a time, they just say that time will elapse. Everyone thought it was going to be 10 to 15 years because of when the Spellplague occurs, and when the Grand History of the Realms hardback book ends.
Green Elven Vampire 09-11-07, 04:10 AM	1785??? Is that typo from the first post? The realms in 4ED will be placed in 1785? Isn't it now just 1375?
Reneshat 09-11-07, 04:41 AM	1785??? Is that typo from the first post? The realms in 4ED will be placed in 1785? Isn't it now just 1375? Yes that's a typo. The Spellplague occurs in 1385.
BadCatMan 09-11-07, 09:06 AM	Answering the Entropy question in the Deities forum reminded me of another great threat to magic - the Karanoks of Luthcheq and their cult of Entropy. They persecute mages and magical beings, and they seek to destroy all arcane magic in the world. They worship a sphere of annihilation that's strongly suspected to be a trick of Shar's. And their witchweed makes arcane spellcasters sick. And people thought they were mad... No mention of that in the Ol' Grey Box though, but the hakeashar / nishruu magic-eater beneath "Soornar" (should be Cimbar) is mentioned.
ShadezofDis 09-11-07, 09:44 AM	Answering the Entropy question in the Deities forum reminded me of another great threat to magic - the Karanoks of Luthcheq and their cult of Entropy. They persecute mages and magical beings, and they seek to destroy all arcane magic in the world. They worship a sphere of annihilation that's strongly suspected to be a trick of Shar's. And their witchweed makes arcane spellcasters sick. And people thought they were mad... No mention of that in the Ol' Grey Box though, but the hakeashar / nishruu magic-eater beneath "Soornar" (should be Cimbar) is mentioned. Well, they could mean anything by "Smash the darkstar" or whatever the exact syntax is, could refer to the sphere or it could refer to something inside the sphere (good way to hide something if you're a god/goddess).
Andyr 09-11-07, 11:20 AM	More likely, I feel the 'Abeir' will have to do with a return of the long lost Fey Creator race (or their progeny) - just a hunch, nothing more. That 'merging-worlds' thing has me as confused as anyone else, truth be told. This is my current pet theory too--some sort of merging of Faerun with a parallel realm of Fey, or similar--though I don't have any evidence to support it. Am keenly awaiting my GHotR!
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 01:08 PM	Well, they could mean anything by "Smash the darkstar" or whatever the exact syntax is, could refer to the sphere or it could refer to something inside the sphere (good way to hide something if you're a god/goddess). In the novel Darkvision, Darkness plays a major role (Obviously). <spoiler alert> The main threat appears to be a creature from the Far Realms, although it is not actually stated, but from what I gather there are Incredibly powerful beings (godlike was the description) from whence it came, and the Imaskari liked to trap such creatures 'just for fun'. Anyhow, we have a weakening of dimensional boundaries occurring after long centuries, and 'things' are getting loose. A Star Elf plays an important role, and I doubt thats a coincidence (they too have a demi-plane that is 'breaking down). Also, there is some lore concerning the Le'Shay, but it is very subtle and well-hidden. So here's what we got - 1) old empires returning 2) dimensional barriers weakening 3) darkness 4) Halaster's people are involved ;) 5) Not sure about this one, but I was told the author, Bruce Cordell, is one of the lead design people for 4e. I could be way off base with this one, but there are a bit too many coincidences there. Then again, perhaps these are just more red Herrings.... :rolleyes: If not, perhaps we should be picking over the entire Wizards series for clues...
SCMrks 09-11-07, 01:57 PM	Drizz't did mention that the aboleths invaded. Aren't they powerful aberrations from the far realms?
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 02:05 PM	Yes, and there was an Illithid in Darkvision... :devil: We could finally find out what the Mindflayers came back in time for. ;) Let's see... could the Spellplague have anything to do with insanity... :plotting:
Andyr 09-11-07, 03:15 PM	Drizz't did mention that the aboleths invaded. Aren't they powerful aberrations from the far realms? A lot of them live in the Realms below various cities (e.g. Waterdeep) or in the Underdark, but I don't know offhand whether Faerunian aboleth are meant to be natives or immigrants from another plane.
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 03:35 PM	I think, and this is just another wild guess, that they will be giving aberrations the 'Eberron' treatment - make them a united threat from an alternate plane. Hmmmmm...... Abeirrations? :smirk:
Suin Bahhar 09-11-07, 06:16 PM	Aboleths were around before there were dieties according Lords of Madness. How they entered the crystal sphere of Abeir-Toril is unknown. It could be Spelljamming, planar travel through the astral or portal magic. Ghaunadar may have called them (being an Elder Evil gets respect from aboleths, no worship, just respect) when he was in saner conditions.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-11-07, 07:20 PM	Hmmmmm...... Abeirrations? :smirk: Haha, I'm not sure if this was your intention or not but that's a good point about our previous discussions. "Look for patterns and you will find them." I'm sure if we look for Abeir-related language we're are bound to find it cropping up all over the place ....In Any CollAbeiration of words and phrases their is always notAbeirly a chance that you can Abeireviate a sentance into something remarkAbeirle.
Lord Karsus 09-12-07, 11:36 AM	If not, perhaps we should be picking over the entire Wizards series for clues... Blackstaff: Return of the City of Hope; Death of Khelben.. Bloodwalk: Eh, nothing very special... Darkvision: As discussed above... Frostfell: The magical tree at Winterkeep blooms once more...
That_GD_Drow 09-15-07, 09:16 AM	Hi all, newbie here and guess I'm starting off in a fun spot for all. Like kissaki, I only just got here after looking into the 4E, seeing FR info about a new RSE and Googling it; and seem to have stepped into the deep end of the pool. And instead of just dipping in I've got to cannonball onto you all with my NSHO. I'll admit you've all got some great ideas and valid points; but I also think you're missing the simplest of things and it's ramifications on the rest. If you don't like the concepts presented or the changes to gameplay or whatever, don't use them. It's your realm at the end of the day and there's always been plenty of wiggle room to play with. Don't let it all get to you and drive you so crazy it hurts. The only time you'd really have to worry about the canon materials and their resounding effects is if you're involved in RPGA play or the Living Realms games. In which case I apologize in advance for annoying you by stating the above and wish you the best in gameplay and will just slink back off into lurking before you tar and feather me. My opinions on the change: Just changing for change's sake isn't worth it, but the Realms has always been a changing world. Just look to the original supplements' maps for uncharted "Here be monsters" type continents and a "New Lands" area which later became Zakhara. A little more information and goodies can't hurt the gameplay and, as said, if I don't like it I won't use it. This just seems to be an attempt to return the Forgotten Realms of uncharted lands that the PCs can tame instead of the Pretty-Well-Charted-And-Supplemented Realms where the PCs are always in someone else's territory. Anything that makes most groups get out of "another adventure with (insert major NPC here)" as many of the campaigns I sat in on with other groups or heard of seemed to be (thanks to the need to stay canon and use the source materials) and make the PCs become the movers and shakers of their realms is a good thing. On the other hand, the new edition being released so soon after a previous edition is just wrong in so many ways (And why so soon after a previous minor edition change. Skills and Powers, anyone?) Eh. Que sera, sera. I figure my group's (I'm just a PC) campaign world will simply continue on with no alterations to it beyond what we want. After 10 years, we're still running 2E (now during late 1370) and are only just filtering in the 3E goodies we like. No change to d20 is in the works at all, so I doubt a 4E change will be coming to my table soon, either. I may get the books for info, however. Just to see what's up in the game (damn this addiction!). And as to what in Tartarus the Spellplague may be... I figure it as not so much a physical manifestation of negative magic effects as a Realms wide war. Most see the Plague as in Pox and/or Death of the First Born (the Chosen). I think more along the lines of Frogs and Locusts. We've the Epic good NPCs on deck for protecting the world with returned Epic evil NPC ready to flick fingers and scepters to take it over. There's nothing like newly returned 10th level magicks and what-not getting tossed about like fists in the Bowels of the Earth to wreck a relatively placid realm and merit a godly stepping in to split up the kids and take their toys away if they can't play right. Sounds like fun stuff.
That_GD_Drow 09-15-07, 09:17 AM	And, wow... I apologize for that well winded response. I'll shut up for a while now.
Lord Karsus 09-16-07, 05:50 PM	If you don't like the concepts presented or the changes to gameplay or whatever, don't use them. It's your realm at the end of the day and there's always been plenty of wiggle room to play with. Don't let it all get to you and drive you so crazy it hurts. -That's all fine, and I'm sure that the majority of those who DM in the Realms do just that. However, a lot of us (myself included) don't DM in the Realms, and the reason we "hang out" here is because we enjoy the "story"- the core storyline.
Dark Wizard 09-16-07, 05:58 PM	If you don't like the concepts presented or the changes to gameplay or whatever, don't use them. It's your realm at the end of the day and there's always been plenty of wiggle room to play with. Don't let it all get to you and drive you so crazy it hurts. The same exact thing can be asked of those who don't like some of the NPCs, some of the gods, some of the events, etc. However, it's not exactly an equal request, what the old Realms asked was easier than what the new Realms asks. The scattered offending components of the old Realms are easier to change than the colossal shift of the new Realms against the established factors.
MarkusTay63 09-16-07, 06:17 PM	both I and Dark Wizard make major and dramatic changes to our Realms, but at the end of the day it has effected no one but ourselves (and players, if we can find any). We come here to enjoy what the REAL Realms are doing, and from that we build our versions. I wouldn't expect people to except all of my Realms-Shaking changes, because they are mine and are only good for things I am attempting. What WotC did, or the few people making these decisions, was to hit a big ol' reset button and start everything from scratch. Even I wouldn't do that, because the things that have gone before is what makes the realms the Realms. It may still look similar to our old Realms, but at the end of the day it's a completely different campaign.
GothicDan 09-16-07, 06:18 PM	Watch out. You'll soon have people here deriding you for being nostalgic. Imagine, someone wishing that something was like what they liked in the past. How terrible!
MarkusTay63 09-16-07, 06:29 PM	Well... I still miss Greyhawk... but I've moved on. And I can again... As you get older Dan, you'll find out you miss more and more, until there is little left but regrets, heartache, and 'what ifs'... A game setting isn't even a pis$ in the wind compared to everything life is going to hit you with. That's why I've learned to accept this, and take the whle thing with a grain of salt. At least time grants you the blessing of 'numbness' after too many dissapointments. ;)
GothicDan 09-16-07, 06:40 PM	I've already learned that: Planescape. It was wonderful while it lasted. It's gone now, but I can still enjoy it. Seeing the Realms being tortured in front of your face is different. Just let it die in peace...
MarkusTay63 09-16-07, 06:46 PM	Like Greyhawk, it will thrash and squirm a bit toward the end... A rather undignified way to go, really... :(
Dark Wizard 09-16-07, 06:57 PM	Heck even Planescape had Faction War.
Faraer 09-16-07, 07:19 PM	I've already learned that: Planescape. It was wonderful while it lasted. It's gone now, but I can still enjoy it. Seeing the Realms being tortured in front of your face is different. Just let it die in peace...Your language belies your claim. The imaginary world isn't the product line. To join in Mark in proffering Elder Wisdom, you will suffer needlessly and artificially if you misplace yourself in perishable unliving things. The extrasomatic knowledge of books is exactly a way out of that trap.
GothicDan 09-17-07, 06:41 AM	Consider me schooled! *Wanders off for Livy.*
Gorbold 10-02-07, 01:49 AM	It's hard to believe a new edition being released so soon after 3.5 (or 3.0 even) could be warranted. But I'm really hoping the reasoning for it is that the new system was such a great improvement that they decided they had to release it and share it with the players as soon as they could. (Yeah, as if.) As far as the plot changes with the realms-shattering events, certain things just don't seem to make much sense. I don't really like what happened with the gods. The whole thing with the Spellplague just sounds like something that's happened like twice already. DMs have the power to make the Realms the way they want it for their campaign purposes. And I think that's how Greenwood would want it. Whatever you need to do to make your Realms experience enjoyable, do it. I think I could actually write around it and use the RSE that occurs in the future to enhance my current campaign, which is occuring in 3.5's present. But I'm not obligated to. If you have a bunch of FR fans in your group that get **** about following canon, you could simply tell them it's "loosely based on the Realms" as a disclaimer, which would allow you plenty of room for deviation.
Fabius Maximus 10-02-07, 08:25 AM	I have another theory about the 'plague. Since Mystra is suposed to be the Weave, what happens if she's suddenly killed? The Weave will cease to exist, to be sure. But I cannot imagine Mystra won't try something to save at least a bit of her power. If Halaster can send a part of his essence to several mages across Faerûn, Mystra can do something similar for sure. She is tied to all Weave-users. If she sends a tiny part of her being to every arcanist that taps into her. Not much, but enough to drive them crazy. Divine essence might do that to you. The Chosen are most likely unaffected by that because they already have part of Mystra in them. But these fragments of Mystra also ensure that these arcanists retain their spellcasting ability. Those who overcome their madness will have to discover new techniques of spellcasting, tapping their power within instead of filtering raw magic through the Weave. (This would tie in nicely with the new at will abilities for casters of which we heard rumors.) The rest of Mystra's essence flows into the world which becomes shapable through force of will for a time (skies of blue fire, anyone?). Through that, the emergence of new arcane spellcasters is ensured.
captaincarot 10-03-07, 12:44 PM	Well... I still miss Greyhawk... but I've moved on. And I can again... As you get older Dan, you'll find out you miss more and more, until there is little left but regrets, heartache, and 'what ifs'... ooo boohoooo! A game setting isn't even a pis$ in the wind compared to everything life is going to hit you with. now this is certainly the case but he doeshave one distinct advantage on us he doesn't have anything to do with the greatest cause of a mans problems. woman. That's why I've learned to accept this, and take the whle thing with a grain of salt. At least time grants you the blessing of 'numbness' after too many dissapointments. ;) but alcohol is quicker :pint:
msatran 10-03-07, 01:13 PM	Uh, Captain Carrot? I'll thank you to keep your gender biased comments to yourself. Don't think that there aren't dozens of women on earth who think that macho, arrogant, flexing guys like us are the problem.
Markustay 10-03-07, 02:07 PM	I would have to agree though, after 18 years of cr@ppy marriage, I find myself 'liberated'. Being alone and having to answer to no one has a lot to be said for it. :D I would highly reccomend it to everyone - become a recluse and only socialize with people over the Internet. You can better manage your time, and the conversations are certainly more intelligent. For the most part... :cool: Sooooo.... how 'bout that Spellplague.... :rolleyes: Still don't get the name - it's not like a disease, and mental illnesses can't be referred to as a 'plague'. Also, I noticed the designers referring to ALL of the catastrophic events of pre-4e as being "The Spellplague", including deific deaths and geography changing. If the Spellplague is the name given to all events surrounding the fallen Weave, then I think it's a rather poor choice. Not that it matters to me - the Spellplague isn't happening anywhere I play in. ;)
GothicDan 10-03-07, 02:45 PM	I find females to be crazy. It's one of the reasons why I like being not very straight. ;) I'm sure some lesbians feel the same way.
Markustay 10-03-07, 04:56 PM	And I like to feel Lesbians, so it comes around full circle. ;) I like to hang around with women far better then men (I find men boring on a face-to-face social level), but I prefer to live with men (I never had problems with any male roomates I've had). So I can't live with women, and I can't bear hangin' around men, so thats why I've resigned myself to this solitary state. Thank god for the digital age and the Internet, otherwise I might not be enjoying myself nearly as much. Bringing this around full circle and back on topic (sort of), I'm looking forward to the 4e rules DI, where I can play with a group of friends and not have to worry about cleaning house or providing snacks. All the fun without the problems. :P
GothicDan 10-03-07, 04:58 PM	I totally find roleplaying online to be as fun as RPing in real life. But for different reasons. Real life has the WOOHA SOCIALIZATION! factor (and, while geeky, I love hanging out with other geeks), while the internetwebwebosphereonets really lets me exercise my writing abilities.
Fabius Maximus 10-03-07, 08:12 PM	Women are crazy. But men are too. Just in another way. ;) Markus, what's with the nick-change?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 08:26 PM	In my experience, men aren't crazy, just irritating.;) But not all the time!
Lord Karsus 10-04-07, 01:02 PM	-Look at that the Spellplague is doing to us!
Shadovar-Fitted 05-01-08, 10:49 AM	I guess I should add to this. I'm new, etcetera, whatever. I'm not too happy with Wizards. I'm relatively new to the whole Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying thing (I started playing around 3E), but even I know Wizards has turned D&D into a total catastrof-ck (I was just getting used to 3.5E before they started counting down to 4E). Personally, I don't think the game should follow the novels. I always thought the novels were a sort of side-hobby (you know, kind of like "what if" situations explained in detail..."what if there was a drow that wasn't evil", "what if the Shadovar made a come back", etc.) With Salvatore's introduction of the oh-so-popular Drizzt (am I the only one who can't stand Drizzt?), and the subsequent introduction of many other epic-like characters, the Realms is looking more and more like a child's game getting out of hand. Look at all these Chosen of Mystra running around! And Harpers! And Zhents! YAY! So while I'm apprehehnsive about this "Spellplague" business, I'm hoping that Wizards will miraculously do it "right" and smooth everything out. Make the Realms raw like it used to be. Personally, I don't know why they couldn't just reprise 2E. From my friend's telling of it, that was the best Edition of the game. :D ...and I have no intention of spending over $100 on some handbooks just to have them come out with 4.5 in two years (I'm going to find some nice young man to buy them for me if I'm forced to play 4E.) While my wallet isn't dented from the money I spend on the shelves of roleplaying reading material, it becomes a annoying when you've got several different version of the same trio of books. This has to be the most idiotic marketing ploy Wizards has tossed to date. "Hey! We've got new handbooks for you to buy! And guess what, we're scrapping everything you knew and loved about the Realms!! YAY!" So I'm keeping my fingers crossed and totally abandoning my plan to become published with Wizards this year.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-01-08, 01:30 PM	(am I the only one who can't stand Drizzt?) Definitely not.:) So while I'm apprehehnsive about this "Spellplague" business, I'm hoping that Wizards will miraculously do it "right" and smooth everything out. Make the Realms raw like it used to be. The Realms will never be "like it used to be." These are very drastic changes going on, here.
MarkusTay63 05-01-08, 03:39 PM	"Like it used to be" in flavor, I think they mean. I can see that - over the years, the novels and sourcebooks DID do a lot of what they say, and then 3rd edition maps took out all of the empty spaces (the wilderness... you know... where the 'monsters' hangout?). Now they are trying to erase a lot of those little towns, and bring back the monster-filled spaces. I can see that reacaptuirng the 'mystique' the Realms at first had, but as far as being the same - is Ed designing each and every NPC? It wasn't the god-like uber-characters from the novels that first caught my attention, "firing lightening bolts out their arse"... it was the stories. When you read about all of those NPCs in the 1e and 2e books, you WANT to know more. You read about the farmer who lost his son in the last war, or about the mageling trying to escape his former master's wrath. It wasn't the 30th level characters that drew me in - it was guys (and gals) between 5th and 12th level that really got my imagination going. thats what FR used to be - a million million stories, all wrapping around and interacting with one another. The designers/authors lost sight of that, I feel, when the whole thing became focused on 'Johnny Shade' and his 'Artifact of Doom'. I don't want to know about the leaders in an army retaking 'Myth Whatever' - I want to know about how the little guy on the front lines is dealing with it. Read the final book of the Empires series - Crusade. Sure, Azoun and Alusair was in it, but a lot of the story centered around a single archer drafted into the army, and how events unfolded around him. Thats the Realms I fell in love with - Not Mr. Draco-dude raising an army of "sharks with frickin' lazers on their heads". I want to read about the 'little guy' again, and I think thats what they are attempting to do. Unfortunely, they felt the need to re-invent the setting to do so. :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-01-08, 08:50 PM	It wasn't the god-like uber-characters from the novels that first caught my attention, "firing lightening bolts out their arse"... it was the stories. When you read about all of those NPCs in the 1e and 2e books, you WANT to know more. You read about the farmer who lost his son in the last war, or about the mageling trying to escape his former master's wrath. It wasn't the 30th level characters that drew me in - it was guys (and gals) between 5th and 12th level that really got my imagination going. thats what FR used to be - a million million stories, all wrapping around and interacting with one another. Well said. I do give for the designers credit for stating the intent to focus on smaller-scale stories--something some of us have been asking for for years. However, it still doesn't matter too much for me, because those stories will take place in a world that I don't know...a world that is called the Forgotten Realms, but isn't (for me).
Lord Karsus 05-05-08, 09:55 PM	-Where do people find these? Seriously? It wouldn't even be in the limited history WotC provides each section...:confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 12:56 PM	-Where do people find these? Seriously? Don't know. Nor do I necessarily encourage it, as I believe one should leave the dead alone.;)
MarkusTay63 05-06-08, 12:58 PM	I like to poke dead things with a stick. :P
Daron Haldor 06-04-08, 02:43 AM	is Ed designing each and every NPC? Clearly he isn't when certain 'precious' NPCs and places remain relatively untouched by the changes. Its this sort of protectionism that keeps me from ever joining a campaign where the DM plays a character, or has past characters in it.
creyzi4zb12 06-04-08, 06:06 AM	Meh, I think spellplague happening is cool. The designers made it to...maybe tone down the issue about "too much munchkins on the realms" I mean comeon...Last time I read about munchkin battles was when Pwent killed his share of tons of orcs...Or when the Simbul blasted hundreds of demons to bits on hell...bah, too imba....no realism... One orc kills 2 archmages in the spellplague due to spell-failures from the wizard master..now that's a bit more realistic.
Lord Karsus 06-04-08, 12:28 PM	Clearly he isn't when certain 'precious' NPCs and places remain relatively untouched by the changes. Its this sort of protectionism that keeps me from ever joining a campaign where the DM plays a character, or has past characters in it. -Why would the DM be playing a character? That's in extremely bad form, and should only be done unless there aren't enough PCs in the group, and even still, is still in bad form. That said, how do you link this with your above statement, which I don't seem to understand either (He isn't, because people/places that he likes are unchanged?).
MerrikCale 06-07-08, 12:01 AM	-Why would the DM be playing a character? That's in extremely bad form, and should only be done unless there aren't enough PCs in the group, and even still, is still in bad form. I agree. The much better solution to me, is have 2 people switch off after a particulat adventure as DM and one of the players.
Lord Karsus 06-27-08, 10:47 PM	I agree. The much better solution to me, is have 2 people switch off after a particulat adventure as DM and one of the players. -Not everyone can do that. Some people aren't that good at DMing, or don't like DMing, or whatever the case.
Mr_Miscellany 06-28-08, 02:47 AM	-and should only be done unless there aren't enough PCs in the group, and even still, is still in bad form. Strictly speaking, when there are not enough players sometimes it's all you can do. Keeping play going is hardly bad form. ;)
Rauric 06-28-08, 08:16 AM	Some Dms can handle the DMPC (not many thought I have found) and if I had to use one I would just make his int and wis low so he was just some clueless muscle to help fill the void of a potential missing player. Actually a healer is fine because even though he could have a decent wis he could still be clueless. I am not the biggest fan of DMpcs though because they have become "the Star" in some campaigns. One DM had his Half-Shade/Were-panther lvl 13 (in a 13th level game) basically dominate the game. PCs were dwarfed in every way. Sad pathetic DM :mad: . If Sigma is reading this he will agree, he was in that campagin.
Lord Karsus 06-28-08, 11:08 AM	Strictly speaking, when there are not enough players sometimes it's all you can do. -There are only three PCs in my own campaign, right now, and I don't feel the need to "stoop" to playing in my own campaign. I am not the biggest fan of DMpcs though because they have become "the Star" in some campaigns. -Exactly. I can guarantee that in most cases, the DMPC "magically" seems to always have enough Hit Points, have the right Saving Throws, enough skill points for the situation, knows the right spells (if applicable), and seems to always have a hunch that is right, concerning the storyline...Even if they aren't the "star", so to speak.
Mr_Miscellany 06-28-08, 02:01 PM	-There are only three PCs in my own campaign, right now, and I don't feel the need to "stoop" to playing in my own campaign. "Stoop" implies a lot, though, doesn't it? When we first started our Third Edition Dungeons and Dragons FR game at the turn of the century, I had me as DM and only one other player. So I created a NPC 'buddy' for that player's character to get things going. The buddy was a Cormyrian noble, a rogue and something of a comic fop. I was able to use him as a means of introducing Cormyr to my one player, who didn't know about the Realms at all. That DM NPC (Rorick Huntsilver) also let me put the player into tricky social situations (read: Roleplaying encounters). Then a 2nd player joined, but we still needed that NPC so combat ecounters wouldn't require so much jurry-rigging. Remember, Third Edition D&D encounters assumed four players at the gaming table and we were still learning the rules of the game, which meant I was a novice at pairing down encounters and using the CR/EL system. Then a 3rd player joined and by consensus the players asked for a new DM NPC. And so Rorick Huntsilver became a true NPC and friend of the PCs, while (Roaring) Thorin Battlehammer -a cleric- joined the group. Just like Rorick, I was able to use Thorin to inform the players about the wider Realms and all that lay beyond Cormyr. I was also able too let go of the reigns, so to speak, and let the players run Thorin during combat encounters. It was interesting to see them use Thorin as less of a healer and more of an attacker. Especially when orcs were involved. Thorin killed lots of orcs. ;) Once we netted a 4th player Thorin didn't go away. He stayed around until the campaign arc I'd written to get the players out of Cormyr and up near Daggerdale and Zhentil Keep was completed. In closing, I'm not saying it's always a good idea for DMs to run PCs. There are plenty of ways it can go bad, as countless threads on these and other forums have shown. But neither is it automatically a bad idea. When an experienced Realms DM is working with one or two players and that Realms DM knows how to use the DM-run PC in ways to keep the attention on the players and inform them about the Realms, then it's all good, because it's fun.
MerrikCale 06-28-08, 04:06 PM	-There are only three PCs in my own campaign, right now, and I don't feel the need to "stoop" to playing in my own campaign. what are the characters?
Lord Karsus 06-28-08, 05:28 PM	what are the characters? -A Half-Orc Rogue, a Spirit-Folk Samurai, and a Half-Elf Bard. There used to be a Halfling Rogue, but not anymore. That player left for school-related purposes.
Sigma34561 06-28-08, 07:12 PM	I am not the biggest fan of DMpcs though because they have become "the Star" in some campaigns. One DM had his Half-Shade/Were-panther lvl 13 (in a 13th level game) basically dominate the game. PCs were dwarfed in every way. Sad pathetic DM :mad: . If Sigma is reading this he will agree, he was in that campagin. No Lie... "You enter a room that looks like a library. There is a desk with a quill and a stack of parchment in the center of the room, and there are walls are covered in bookshelves. You see my character cast Detect Magic and start plucking books of the shelves." And it was Shade/Were-Panther/Wizard/Rogue. The were-panther came from a cursed potion from the Brotherhood. When he applied the template he used the skill points from his increased HD to max out the Change Shape skill and got the Improved Change Shape feat. This was 3.0 Same campaign... "During the night, **rolls** while your psion is on watch, boulders begin to rain down on camp. Two of them hit you for **rolls** 63 damage." "Ummm, I'm dead." **Battle with hill giants ensues. They are killed, and the group begins to look for treasure in their sacks.** "We find a suit of +4 Full plate, a necklace of fireballs type VI, two crystal balls, a +3 Flaming Composite +5 Longbow, a +2 shadow suit of half-plate, and 25,000 in gold and gems." "Wait, they snuck up on me carrying all that crap? Shouldn't I have gotten a listen check?" "No, they were sneaking."
MerrikCale 06-28-08, 10:32 PM	-A Half-Orc Rogue, a Spirit-Folk Samurai, and a Half-Elf Bard. There used to be a Halfling Rogue, but not anymore. That player left for school-related purposes. interesting. I always liked spirit folk. What levels? This is your homebrew campaign correct?
Lord Karsus 06-29-08, 12:08 AM	interesting. I always liked spirit folk. What levels? -Everyone is Level 8. This is your homebrew campaign correct? -Right.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 06-30-08, 03:03 PM	Well, LK, I like the DM's PC in our game.;)
Lord Karsus 06-30-08, 03:07 PM	Well, LK, I like the DM's PC in our game.;) -Shh!
MerrikCale 07-01-08, 12:20 PM	Well, LK, I like the DM's PC in our game.;) huh?
GreenKnight 07-01-08, 12:21 PM	Only thing missing from this conversation is an in-game baby. ;)
Lord Karsus 07-01-08, 12:42 PM	-Those characters are all Level 9 now. They all went up a level last night.
MerrikCale 07-01-08, 04:19 PM	-Those characters are all Level 9 now. They all went up a level last night. that doesn't answer my last question?
Lord Karsus 07-01-08, 04:23 PM	that doesn't answer my last question? -Refresh me. What is the question?
MerrikCale 07-01-08, 04:24 PM	-Refresh me. What is the question? what did Rhee mean bout your DM's PC? That was the gist of my articulate "huh"?
Lord Karsus 07-01-08, 04:33 PM	-I am going to plead the 5th.
MerrikCale 07-01-08, 06:02 PM	damn
Lord Karsus 07-01-08, 06:57 PM	-Yup...
MerrikCale 07-02-08, 10:03 AM	hmmmmm
Lord Karsus 07-03-08, 10:28 PM	-Now what?
MerrikCale 07-03-08, 10:29 PM	just trying figure you two and your cryptic this posts....hmmmmmmmmmmmm
kissaki 09-03-08, 09:16 PM	I have returned... My apologies for resurrecting a very old thread. Just recently, I was able to read thru the FRCG. Now that everything has come to pass, I would like to post a question that I have long neglected to post since exactly one year ago when I read this thread up to, and most importantly, the series posts following post 307. I laughed so hard reading FRCG Chapter 7: Threats... after suddenly being greeted by the index page.... :confused: Is that all?! My god, what have they done to the Realms... There is absolutely nothing there... Its just a piece of land sprinkled with a lot of monsters. I could make something like this in an instant.. **Facepalm** Back to post 307... What happened to the Grayhawk & Planescape and setting back then? what that made them die? Is this how the Realms will end? Assassinated and left to die!?!
Lord Karsus 09-03-08, 10:08 PM	What happened to the Grayhawk & Planescape and setting back then? what that made them die? Is this how the Realms will end? Assassinated and left to die!?! -Planescape and Greyhawk were drastically changed, had silly things happen in them, and other things, such that fans stopped caring/liking them, and the settings "died". With Planescape, it was the Faction War, and with Greyhawk, I believe there was some sort of world war. I never followed, or liked, Greyhawk, so I don't know the specifics. -As to the notion that the Forgotten Realms is dead or not. Well, that's for you to decide. If you don't like it, and the new books, then for you, it's dead.
creyzi4zb12 09-05-08, 09:15 AM	Aaahh. I didn't know that Greyhawk and PLanescape also uses the 4e rules.
Lord Karsus 09-05-08, 11:37 AM	Aaahh. I didn't know that Greyhawk and PLanescape also uses the 4e rules. -You can use whatever rules you want to, for whatever game you want to. Greyhawk and Planescape aren't actively supported right now, but if you're a fan of the setting, and want to use your 2e setting books in a 4e rules campaign, no one is going to try to stop you.