Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joneleth 04-07-06, 08:03 AM	The title quite sais it. I've seen a picture of the world before the sundering in a recent thread here. And that again peeked my curiosity. WHY did the elves sunder faerun?
Karsus the Mad 04-07-06, 08:11 AM	To create a Homeland.
Joneleth 04-07-06, 08:29 AM	But they split off huge chunks, entire continents. Did they miscalculate something? Or did they say, oh, if we splice the whole continent in two, we can use this tiny fragment here in the middle as our homeland.? Or had they no idea how everything would be spliced and chose the most suitable piece of land, after the sundering?
Karsus the Mad 04-07-06, 08:37 AM	I believe much of the Sundering was unforeseen.
Joneleth 04-07-06, 09:14 AM	Ok thanks. It makes sense. It fits into the rest of the elves' grand errors.
Karsus the Mad 04-07-06, 09:25 AM	Pretty much. It ranks up their with the dark disaster, the decent, etc.
GothicDan 04-07-06, 12:47 PM	Personally I see the Dark Descent and the Disaster as perfectly acceptable. While it had some consequences which were unforeseen (namely the banishing of non-Evil Drow, which we don't know how many there were at that point anyway), this was an acceptable loss. And we really know nothing about WHY these things happened. Nothing that the Elves did had side effects that they made out of ignorance; there's no actualy mechanical, or lore-based, reason for what happened actually hapenning. It would be equivalent to saying a Wizard is stupid for throwing a fireball at an Orc who appeared to be, in absolutely every way that they could think of, magically or physically or psychologically, a simple orc, and having it rebound on them because some fickle deity just felt like it wold be fun. The Sundering had some unforeseen side-effects, but no more than Karsus casting his Avatar spell did, or the Imaskari being destroyed in the long-run due to their innate inter-planar magic, or the like. If anything, I think the Elves have made far less mistakes than humans, especially considering their mistakes have been spread out over about 20,000 years of history, rather than the human civilizations, which usually only spanned a couple thousand at most. If I was a Sun Elf, I'd tell you quite simply, if accused of making a "mistake" in the Dark Disaster or the Descent, "Sometimes a few innocents must suffer so that the greater whole will not." They're only considered errors in the eyes of those who were negatively affected by them. In the eyes of the Elves, they're successes with a bit of a bad-aftertaste, but successes nonetheless.
Yokinobu 04-07-06, 01:39 PM	Howabout making the mistake of coming to Faerun in the first place? They came to Toril, and now they are mad about being overrun by a superior, native race. Humans were here first, so there.
Gray Richardson 04-07-06, 05:25 PM	Elves have lobbed high magic around for millenia as if such spells were tennis balls--when they are sometimes more akin to tactical nuclear weapons. For instance, one of the grandest errors the elves have ever made was to use high magic to repulse a fleet of invading ships away from their island nation of Tintageer (their original homeland in the world of Faerie.) The spell pushed the ships back, as well as all the water down to the ocean floor for hundreds of miles in all directions. When the sea rushed back in as a colossal tidal wave, less than a hundred elves managed to escape to Faerūn by means of another high magic gate spell before the waves obliterated Tintageer. The Sundering was arguably a worse catastrophe, when, in an effort to create a special island homeland for themselves, they split off a piece of Faerūn along the sword coast, pushing a great portion of the continent across the ocean, leaving a smattering of islands strewn across the trackless sea. Imagine the "big one" splitting off California along the San Andreas fault and propelling it across the Pacific to somewhere near Japan. Similarly, the Descent of the Dark Elves spell propagated to all Dark Elves, no matter their political or religious affiliation. The Dark Disaster was not unlike a nuclear holocaust visited on Miyeritar. The tidal wave that Nikerymath visited on Jhaamdath wiped out the Jhaamdathans and altered the landscape of the Vilhon Reach. The elves are certainly responsible for some major blunders. There are probably some other dark secrets that they are responsible for that have yet to be revealed.
primemover003 04-07-06, 05:32 PM	Stupid daisey eaters..... LOL. The Sundering, Dragon Rages, Giant Tidal Waves, Destrcution of their Homelands... what will those elves do next?
Karsus the Mad 04-07-06, 09:31 PM	And we really know nothing about WHY these things happened. Nothing that the Elves did had side effects that they made out of ignorance; there's no actualy mechanical, or lore-based, reason for what happened actually hapenning. The Dark Disaster was a purposeful use of High Magic to wipe out an entire nation of elves that resulted in creation of the High Moore. The tidal wave that took out Jhaamdath was a purposeful use of High Magic to wipe out an entire race of humans (when it was only the emperor and the military responsible) that resulted in the creation of the Vilhon Reach. The Sundering was a purposeful act to create a homeland (bad side effects, but they weren't intended) that resulted in a temporary sundering of the Weave, creation of dead magic zones, shredding the face of the planet appart, wreaked havoc for pretty much everyone. The Descent was a purposeful act to severe the Illythiri elves from the grace of Corellon (it accidentally affected ALL dark elves, not just the Illythiri). Deep Netheril was wiped out by High Magic (prolly for good reason, however many innocent civilians died). They're only considered errors in the eyes of those who were negatively affected by them. In the eyes of the Elves, they're successes with a bit of a bad-aftertaste, but successes nonetheless. Actually, it's the elves themselves that call them their worst mistakes and are ashamed of them, if I'm not mistaken myself.
MaskedOne 04-07-06, 10:24 PM	If I was a Sun Elf, I'd tell you quite simply, if accused of making a "mistake" in the Dark Disaster or the Descent, "Sometimes a few innocents must suffer so that the greater whole will not." Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the Dark Disaster the case where the Vyshaan decided that Miyeritar didn't feel like surrendering its sovereignty and therefore was not fit to exist? If I'm not wrong, then I'd agree perfectly it wasn't a mistake. It was deliberate mass murder with limited to non-existent justification. There are two entirely different appropriate responses. The former you might forgive of someone while said being is breathing. The latter is handled with lethal force and Corellon can determine anything else.
Zanan 04-08-06, 04:29 AM	The Dark Disaster was a a deliberate act, though maybe, just maybe, the magic used got out of hand much like they did with the Sundering and the Descent. Doesn't make it any more justifyable, but anyway ... BTW, I have no problem if people lay into the all-too-good pointy-ears from time to time :evillaugh ... for errors in political judgement and acts such as those described in a history stretching a few thousands years should be there. Else it would all loose some credibility.
Derren S. 04-08-06, 05:00 AM	Makes me wonders why humans got punished for one mistake (Karsus) while elves abused magic much more often in a destructiv manor. Even more why elves were initially allowed to keep their magic. I mean that the weave failed also was only a unintended side effect much like what happened at the Sundering. It might be spread over 20.000 years, but considering the long lifespan of elves that are not many generations. Seems to me that whole Toril would be better off without elves. (Makes me also wonder why elves are generally considered to be good)
Alediran 04-09-06, 12:47 PM	Makes me wonders why humans got punished for one mistake (Karsus) while elves abused magic much more often in a destructiv manor. Even more why elves were initially allowed to keep their magic. I mean that the weave failed also was only a unintended side effect much like what happened at the Sundering. It might be spread over 20.000 years, but considering the long lifespan of elves that are not many generations. Seems to me that whole Toril would be better off without elves. (Makes me also wonder why elves are generally considered to be good) Simple: Karsus "killed" Mystril Elves never would do that on purpose. Magic is part of theme. And Usually Chaotic Good means 50% of elves who are Chaotic Good, not 99%
Iakhovas 04-09-06, 03:02 PM	Karsus merely wanted Mystryl's power and had no desire to kill her. In fact it was Mystryl that sacrificed herself to restore the weave that Karsus knew not how to control. Simple: Karsus "killed" Mystril
Iakhovas 04-09-06, 03:07 PM	Balanced against the entirety of known Faerūnian history, the elves definately get the award for most destructive race on Toril. Karsus' folly is insignificant when weighed against the Scouring of Tintageer, The Sundering, the Dark Disaster, the Fall of Jhaamdath, etc... Makes me wonders why humans got punished for one mistake (Karsus) while elves abused magic much more often in a destructiv manor. Even more why elves were initially allowed to keep their magic. I mean that the weave failed also was only a unintended side effect much like what happened at the Sundering. It might be spread over 20.000 years, but considering the long lifespan of elves that are not many generations. Seems to me that whole Toril would be better off without elves.
buzzard 04-09-06, 03:32 PM	Simple: Karsus "killed" Mystril Elves never would do that on purpose. Magic is part of theme. And Usually Chaotic Good means 50% of elves who are Chaotic Good, not 99% "The Sundering" greatly damaged the Weave, Karsus never did that...
GothicDan 04-09-06, 07:36 PM	Buzzard, I'm sure you have it the other way around. The very reason why Mystra sacrificed herself was because Karsus's spell was damaging the Weave on a world-wide scale, because he didn't know how to maintain it and control it.
JaiaDrottsingr 04-09-06, 08:02 PM	So, correct me if I'm wrong, Karsus caused the Time of Troubles? Drow are STILL cooler than elves! YES! P.S. Press ALT, then F, and finally C.
Derren S. 04-09-06, 08:29 PM	The ToT is something complelty different and has nothing to do with karsus, elves, high magic or the weave.
Gray Richardson 04-09-06, 09:48 PM	Well, to be truthful, the Time of Troubles was precipitated by human gods who happened to be ascended humans themselves. Although they had been gods for centuries at that point, so I am not sure if it is fair to ascribe the fault for the Time of Troubles to humans in general. And it was apparently more of a straw that broke the camel's back type of situation. Ao would seem to have been unhappy with the way most of the gods had been behaving for some time. And he was probably still upset about some of the goings on in the Dawn Cataclysm, among other things. The death of Mystryl was caused by a human trying to ascend to godhood. A flabergasting display of hubris by a single individual. While Karsus was a human, I am not sure that humanity in general bears guilt for his crime. Maybe you could say he was the product of a vain and power-hungry culture that played too carelessly with powers they did not fully understand, but the death of Mystryl was not an orchestrated, considered thing on the part of humans in general. Elven high magic requires many elves to work in concert, and in each of the catastrophes above appears to have been the calculated and joint effort of various elven elders. The fact that the elves make such grave mistakes over and over again through history is suggestive to me of an interesting flaw in the elven character.
GothicDan 04-09-06, 10:07 PM	Once more: what defines a 'mistake' is entirely subjective to who's being hurt. The vast majority of industrial/technology advances have resulted in the devastation and injury of countless of species on Earth, but most humans wouldn ot say what we've done is a mistake.
MaskedOne 04-09-06, 10:41 PM	*shrug* At this rate, Elven High Mages are going to reach the top of my list of potential threats to Toril. :)
Lord Karsus 04-10-06, 12:11 AM	Once more: what defines a 'mistake' is entirely subjective to who's being hurt. -Exactly. A Sun Elf noble, sitting at his villa in Leuthilspar, sipping Elverquisst, is not going to classify the steps taken to create Evermeet 'a mistake'. The vast majority of industrial/technology advances have resulted in the devastation and injury of countless of species on Earth, but most humans wouldn ot say what we've done is a mistake. -Correct. History has labeled the Industrial Revolution of the mid-to-late 1800's a very beneficial thing. It "modernized" the world. But, it had grave consequences for the environment, and human society in general.
Joneleth 04-10-06, 08:28 AM	I think Karsus spell was less of an error than the elves' sundering of Faerun, because although Karsus shouldn't have used that spell, I don't think there was any way to foresee the consequences of his act. In the case of the elves, I think if they put some more work/thinking to it, they would have been able to either better refine the spell or realise that the way they had been developping it so far would have catastrophic consequences. In case of the dark disaster, I'm not sure. That's more of a political thing to me. Although it was a horrible thing, it was still a weapon used to slay their enemies. I think they were aware of the consequences then, but used the spell anyway, because they felt it was necessary. It was a very bad thing to do, but not a mistake.
Lord Karsus 04-10-06, 08:33 AM	In case of the dark disaster, I'm not sure. That's more of a political thing to me. Although it was a horrible thing, it was still a weapon used to slay their enemies. I think they were aware of the consequences then, but used the spell anyway, because they felt it was necessary. It was a very bad thing to do, but not a mistake. -It's almost akin to the use of Atomic weaponry on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945.
Joneleth 04-10-06, 08:50 AM	-It's almost akin to the use of Atomic weaponry on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. The exact same analogy sprang to my mind when I was typing my previous post. Terrible, yet intentional. The elves should get the "usually evil" next to their alignment. :D
Lord Karsus 04-10-06, 08:56 AM	The exact same analogy sprang to my mind when I was typing my previous post. Terrible, yet intentional. The elves should get the "usually evil" next to their alignment. :D -Some already do- Drow, Daemonfey and Fey'ri.
Derren S. 04-10-06, 09:50 AM	But how many Drow, Daemonfey and Fey'ri were part of all the above mentioned catastrophes? Most elves in teh realms (at least the ruling ones in Evermeet) are exactly has power hungry and self centered as human kings and certainly not good but at best neutral.
Alediran 04-10-06, 10:02 AM	But how many Drow, Daemonfey and Fey'ri were part of all the above mentioned catastrophes? Most elves in teh realms (at least the ruling ones in Evermeet) are exactly has power hungry and self centered as human kings and certainly not good but at best neutral. But how many elves are like that? Thats what you have to take into consideration. Let's say there are about 200 with evil alignment, does that means the rest of elves have to have an "evil" alignment? Just because the evil ones apear more frecuently (you wouldn't read a book where all characters are good) isn't an indication of the whole race. BTW, the Queen isn't power-hungry. And she is the most powerfull elf in all Toril.
Karsus the Mad 04-10-06, 12:07 PM	Once more: what defines a 'mistake' is entirely subjective to who's being hurt. The vast majority of industrial/technology advances have resulted in the devastation and injury of countless of species on Earth, but most humans wouldn ot say what we've done is a mistake. Vice versa. Whether an act is considered a mistake by one group, or purposeful by another doesn't change the devastation caused by the act. If you mean mistake as in: "An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness." Then I heartily agree, the elves often make mistakes when it comes to the application of High Magic. -It's almost akin to the use of Atomic weaponry on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. Yup, except the elves continue to use their atomic weaponry on people even after knowing full well the possible consequences.
Derren S. 04-10-06, 12:12 PM	Yes, but have the majority of the elves who are good objected when their leaders did all these things?
Zanan 04-10-06, 12:52 PM	As usual, one should be wary with comments about the "most powerful" character around, be that elf or dwarf or human. As for the "deeds" of the elves ... we always walk on a rope when we try to explain a nations history while pointing at general alignments in the MM or PHB. History does not work like this. The Vyshantaar Empire's leaders were most likely supremists (sp?) of the highest order, not least after being mislead by some archfiend. (How that was possible beckons explanation, but anyway.) Other spellcasting like the flooding of Jhaa... - you know what I mean - was in response to the humans advances and politics, and possibly went a bit too far. Obviously, you'll always need to see the whole thing from the elven viewpoint as well. If you read the novels about Evermeet back then and now (Last Mythal series), you'll find various elves behaving much different than you would think they'll do, spinning webs of intrigue behind the Queen's back. That is how it should be. Power corrupts and those who lack it may (as in: may) want to gain more. Especially if they feel that it is rightfully theirs to be won. Anyways, I like the recent elven novels and sourcebooks, as they present the elves as being "normal" mortals, not some kind of highly philosophical nature-loving good-doers cloned from LotR or the like. Likewise, I have no problems giving the hobgoblins (like in Eberron) or orcs a chance to produce some decent history, not black & white tainted stuff straight out of the adventure books.
Alediran 04-10-06, 12:58 PM	Yes, but have the majority of the elves who are good objected when their leaders did all these things? Have the majority of US people objected agains war on Irak, even if they feel it's wrong? It's the same principle to elves, commoners could be individualy against that, but how are they going to fight them, when the leaders have all the power?
GothicDan 04-10-06, 01:13 PM	Joneleth: I think Karsus spell was less of an error than the elves' sundering of Faerun, because although Karsus shouldn't have used that spell, I don't think there was any way to foresee the consequences of his act. In the case of the elves, I think if they put some more work/thinking to it, they would have been able to either better refine the spell or realise that the way they had been developping it so far would have catastrophic consequences. Why do you feel this? Why do you think that Karsus could not figure out possible mistakes while the Elves could? I think, in both cases, there was a certain knowledge as to possible consequences, if not with exact probability or certainty. When we first tested nuclear bombs, we had an "idea" that the Earth's entire atmosphere would catch on fire, and there was no real way of knowing for sure without actually testing it. I think it was the same for both Karsus and the Elves, though obviously Karsus would have known that the potential for damage to the Weave itself and his own society was at greater risk. Derren: But how many Drow, Daemonfey and Fey'ri were part of all the above mentioned catastrophes? It's not the weapon you use but how you use it that defines alignment, remember. Most elves in teh realms (at least the ruling ones in Evermeet) are exactly has power hungry and self centered as human kings and certainly not good but at best neutral. Incorrect. Check the Elves of Evermeet supplement to read about the various Houses and such and their tendencies and alignments. Yes, but have the majority of the elves who are good objected when their leaders did all these things? Well, we saw the Sun Elves ostrasize and banish the Fey'ri, and the vast majority of then find the Eldreth Veluuthra distasteful and immoral. And why would they object to something that benefits the People overall? The Sundering, I'll give, may have been a mistake. The Descent and the Dark Disaster, though, were neither Evil actions nor mistakes. Also note that even if one was to consider the Dark Disaster evil, that it was caused by the High Magi of Aryvandaar. According to Elaine Cunningham (who wrote the Evermeet novel and aided in writing the supplement), only the elite/ruling class of Aryvandaar, the Vyshaanti specifically, were evil. It wouldn't take any more than the High Magi of Vyshaan casting the Dark Disaster to create it; the Good (but ignorant) commoners, and even the other nobles, would had to have known absolutely nothing about it, so they couldn't have protested it. Karsus the Mad: Vice versa. Whether an act is considered a mistake by one group, or purposeful by another doesn't change the devastation caused by the act. If you mean mistake as in: Quote: "An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness." Then I heartily agree, the elves often make mistakes when it comes to the application of High Magic. I would say primarily in the Sundering, if one uses this definition. However, I doubt that the Elves would undo their act, if they could, because it's Evermeet that has, in the past, acted as their safe haven. While they did not know totally of the consequences of their actions, they would probably see it currently as a necessary evil. Yup, except the elves continue to use their atomic weaponry on people even after knowing full well the possible consequences. Yes, they do. How is that a mistake? Quantum theory suggests a possibility for disaster in nearly every military or scientific experiment that we do, but it's an acceptable possibility, so we continue to do experiments and employ the results of them. Zanan: If you read the novels about Evermeet back then and now (Last Mythal series), you'll find various elves behaving much different than you would think they'll do, spinning webs of intrigue behind the Queen's back. That is how it should be. Power corrupts and those who lack it may (as in: may) want to gain more. Especially if they feel that it is rightfully theirs to be won. Normally, I'd agree with you. But we aren't talking about Humans here. Yet, even then, we have cases of Elves opposing Elven rulers (Eltagrim and Starym). But, specifically, Queen Amlaruil is the Chosen of the Seldarine. That, I think, is the key difference. The Tel'Quessir are supremely religious, and specifically the Sun Elves are; their religiousness is one of the few things that extends past their own personal ambition. Many members of the Eldreth Veluuthra sincerely feel that they're still being loyal to the Seldarine despite their actions, as did Kymil and the rest. I wouldn't say the same about the Vyshaanti. But anyway, the point is that she's the Chosen of the Seldarine, which is an undisputed sign from the gods themselves that she is fit to rule and that her views are those which will best guide the People in the future. Being as the Ar'Tel'Quessir are so deeply religious (their numbers make up the most Clerics too, remember), the Elven Houses SHOULDN'T be sneeking behind Amlaruil's back and plotting and weaving webs of intrigue. In the case of Eltagrim and the like, there was always that possibility of doubt, despite him being suitable to wield the Ruler's Blade. Being Chosen of the Seldarine would leave no such possibility in the eyes of the Tel'Quessir. The fact that Evermeet states that all Elves, Sun or otherwise, accept and love Amlaruil as Queen and ruler, makes perfect sense in the Elven culture and mindset. Not the human one, but the Elven one. Anyways, I like the recent elven novels and sourcebooks, as they present the elves as being "normal" mortals, not some kind of highly philosophical nature-loving good-doers cloned from LotR or the like. Likewise, I have no problems giving the hobgoblins (like in Eberron) or orcs a chance to produce some decent history, not black & white tainted stuff straight out of the adventure books. I dunno. While I like some shades of gray and white, I think that part of what makes fantasy fantasy is assigning a certain 'illogical' innateness to things - to magic, cultures, races, items, psychologies, etc. The demihumans are not supposed to be as multi-dimensional and "normal" as humans, because they're not humans. They're innately magical and in the case of most have divine blood (or magic, at least) running in them from the start. I feel this way about ALL of the non-human races, not just the Elves. :)
MaskedOne 04-10-06, 01:59 PM	Correct me if my understanding of Toril's or Earth's history is innaccurate (it could be) but I have a minor problem with using the analogy of US atomics and Elven High Magic. The US used atomics against two cities of a nation that had already [b]started[/i] a war with us. The use of atomics was to compel a surrender and avoid an invasion that would have cost more lives on both sides. It had the side benefit of providing intimidation value against a potential future enemy. We also made some (limited but still present) attempt to warn the populations of the cities we were going to wipe out that taking an extended vacation elsewhere would be a very good idea. We also helped rebuild the country that we put so much effort into shredding and it is now a relatively healthy, stable, independent country. vs. The Elves wipe out nations. In one case, the target's only crime was not to feel like surrendering its sovereignty (that may be mispelled). Jhaamdath may have been considered an agressor unlike Miyeritar (whose death can be chalked up to Vyshaan corruption) but was utter annihilation really necessary. Elves don't use offensive High Magic to force their enemies to stand down or to compel negotiations, they just turn the opposing nation into a graveyard and leave it that way. Admittedly there are US citizens who might approve of that type of policy but it isn't one we've gone out of our way to use recently and it takes a bit more effort to justify.
Derren S. 04-10-06, 02:10 PM	Please, leave the real world out of this. You can't compare those two things.
MaskedOne 04-10-06, 03:23 PM	I did not bring up that analogy and I am more than content to let it die. However, the analogy was brought in and is in use. I do not believe there are enough similarities for it to be in use hence my earlier post and I will not operate under a standard where the actions of the US may be used to draw real world analogs to the actions of the Elven people when the actions used have neither circumstance, methodologies, motivation nor end goal tied in any but the most superficial means. Either the comparison goes away completely or it gets defended. I prefer the former but either works.
Derren S. 04-10-06, 04:47 PM	Not to mention that alignment doesn't work in real life (and even if it would, I doubt that the USA qualifies as good, but as neutral like everyone else in the world).
GothicDan 04-10-06, 07:13 PM	I was referring to the effects of a Nuke and that of High Magic, nothing about the politics, history, or culture behind their use. The Elves wipe out nations. In one case, the target's only crime was not to feel like surrendering its sovereignty (that may be mispelled). After x-hundred years of peaceful negotiation, mind you. And this was only after the Ilythiiri launched raids (seemingly at random) against neighboring Elven kingdoms who were naught but trade partners with Aryvandaar. And, as I said before, it was performed by the High Magi of House Vyshaanti, which were the primary corrupt members of the kingdom. If it was an Evil act, it can be laid at the feet of a single ruling House corrupted by Malkazid, not the other Elves of Aryvandaar, who probably knew nothing about the Dark Disaster as it was cast, since it was performed by a very secretive, corrupt, tyrannical, paranoid House. Jhaamdath may have been considered an agressor unlike Miyeritar (whose death can be chalked up to Vyshaan corruption) but was utter annihilation really necessary. I can't say for sure, here, as I don't know much about Jhaamdath. I'd like to know more about the history and interaction between Jhaamdath and the Elves involved. Elves don't use offensive High Magic to force their enemies to stand down or to compel negotiations, they just turn the opposing nation into a graveyard and leave it that way. What do you mean by "Elves?" If we generalize the actions of certain individuals to an entire race, you can say the same for Humans. The destruction left in the wake of the Narfell and Raumathar wars still plagues the East, as do numerous still-bound fiends; Shade's actions caused great upheaval and catastrophe across the North and the Western Heartlands; Imaskar's god barrier ultimately resulted in the destruction of many innocents. Does this mean that humans do the same, too? I think not. What House Vyshaan did to Miyeritar can hardly be generalized to all Elves. And as far as Jhaamdath goes, as I said, my knowledge concerning that incident (and the history leading up to it) is too splotchy. But I can tell you for sure that it wasn't done as a consensus of all of the Elves of Faerun.
BrianCritchley 04-10-06, 07:37 PM	But anyway, the point is that she's the Chosen of the Seldarine, which is an undisputed sign from the gods themselves that she is fit to rule and that her views are those which will best guide the People in the future. Being as the Ar'Tel'Quessir are so deeply religious (their numbers make up the most Clerics too, remember), the Elven Houses SHOULDN'T be sneeking behind Amlaruil's back and plotting and weaving webs of intrigue just because elves in general are deeply religous doesn't mean they ALL are. in my experiance it seems to be those who are most powerful, who are the least religous. furthermore, the moonblade drawing ceramony IIRC had 1 or so blades too many, and likewise Amerial wasn't the one who was granted the throne but her late husband. these things combine to give Amerial just eneugh... "questionable legitimacy" so that the powerful noble lords of evermeet might wish to restrict her power. likewise the line of sucession is somewhat in doubt with her only remaining child having apparently gone north to eistablish another settlement. personally I suspect the REAL political wrangling isn't so much to do with Ammeurial as making sure a precident, in their favor, is set for her predecessor. elves being long lived DO tend to think far ahead
Krash 04-10-06, 07:39 PM	Jhaamdath may have been considered an agressor unlike Miyeritar (whose death can be chalked up to Vyshaan corruption) but was utter annihilation really necessary. Considering that when the elves of the Chondalwood "dropped the big one" on Jhaamdath they'd been reduced to a few scattered clans and families, with few or no elves (other than the High Mages) past early adult age, I'd say that justified what they did. In spades. The Jhaamdathi were practicing genocide. They lost. -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 04-10-06, 08:45 PM	I would say primarily in the Sundering, if one uses this definition. However, I doubt that the Elves would undo their act, if they could, because it's Evermeet that has, in the past, acted as their safe haven. While they did not know totally of the consequences of their actions, they would probably see it currently as a necessary evil. I doubt it as well. I used that definition of mistake purely as a litteral definition, as much of high magic use has been through carelessness, as many elves do admit. This is not "evil" or "wrong". It's merely a mortal mistake, that anyone can make. The intent is usually (save for the case of Jhaamdath and the dark disaster) good intended, but like many people, elves get "carried away" so to speak. The only problem I have is that all of the rest of the races of Toril were punished for a single, yet similar mistake (Karsus attempting to gain godhood in order to defeat the phaerimm and save his homeland) while the elves have abused magic for their own purposes time and again and are rewarded via being able to keep 10th level magic while it's stripped away from everyone else (including the races that had absolutely nothing to do with KA). That's why, personally, I have nothing against the retcon that all races were banned in -339 DR because neither humans or elves are "innocent" of abusing magic, as both races have abused magic time and again in various ways. The history with Jhaamdath is sketchy. Jhaamdath was relatively neutral, with focuses towards the self and balance with all things, rather than imperialism, from what little is available (mainly from LEoF). It was only after a metamind was installed as emperor via a military coup that things changed. They clear cut forests and slaughtered the elves native to the region in order to build a navy for a future invasion of...some place (I simply can't remember off hand). It was this slaughter and desecration that the elves of the chondalwood reacted with the high magic ritual that flooded Jhaamdath in a tidal wave. It was prolly justified, but still overdoing it as not all Jhaamdathan's were at fault. As I said earlier, it was a very small minority: the emperor and the military. I seriously doubt the average Jhaamdathan citizen was of the same ilk, especially given generations of "neutrality and balance" lessons from the dominant religion. The same as I seriously doubt the average aryvandaar was as paranoid and ruthless as their Vyshaan coronals. And the same applies to Netheril. Not every citizen was as power hungry and arrogant as the typical archwizard.
MaskedOne 04-10-06, 09:46 PM	Krash: My thanks for the history lesson. I was not certain of the history there and did leave a very weak disclaimer to that effect. Without the resources to oppose Jhaamdath using something other than High Magic, annihilation was justified to a degree. "In spades" would depend on knowledge of how much time they had to react and what they knew how to do quickly. Since I know neither, I will not grant that much credit. EDIT: Disclaimer might be to strong a term. I put a handful of words stating that my knowledge of history could be innacurate in either case. GothicDan: I freely admit that use of generalizations was an error. I make them when I'm irritable or rushed, sometimes they're excusable, sometimes not. That particular one should never have stayed on the post but I wrote it right before walking out the door and didn't think to re-read the post when I got home. I did however place the blame for the Dark Disaster on the Vyshaan. You quoted the line in which I did so.