The Tearfall or the Moonsea? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Tearfall or the Moonsea? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BurningTiger
11-10-07, 06:57 PM In the GHotR, the sidebar titled "-349: Kisonraathiisar's slow demise" mentions a draco-laser (as some have called it) that the dragons tried to use to destroy the King-Killer Star, but instead "scored only a glancing blow on the moon..., leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure."

Some have suggested that this inland sea is the Sea of Falling Stars, and that this event is referring to the Tearfall. This scenario causes problems in that the Dracorage Mythal, that the dragons were trying to stop by destoying the King-Killer Star, wasn't built until 6000 years after the Tearfall.

So instead of being the cause of the Tearfall, what if the inland sea the crashing piece of the moon created was instead the Moonsea?! Is there any lore that might contradict this?

*Note: I realize the Moonsea was also known as the Dragons' Sea but that still supports this scenario since dragons were the cause of it.
David_Eitelbach
11-10-07, 11:07 PM Well, personally I always viewed the Moonsea as a naturally created body of water, especially considering that it is freshwater and was once in an area that was covered by the Great Glacier. I imagined that it was carved by the glacier eons ago.

Is the Lake of Steam a possibility? I'm not extremely well-versed in Realmslore, but I don't think I've ever read about how that body of water was formed?
BurningTiger
11-10-07, 11:39 PM I suppose it's possible. It could have very well been any inland sea.
Just not during the Tearfall.

Really my biggest problem were the things some people thought up to explain the time anomalies that would have to happen for it to create the Sea of Fallen Stars during the Tearfall. (I don't remember what thread this was discussed in and I can't seem to find it again)

I just figured I'd put 2 and 2 together. A piece of the moon crashing to Toril and creating an inland sea. Moon + Sea = Moonsea

And who said that glaciers melting into a crater created by a fallen piece of the moon wasn't natural? :D
Iakhovas
11-10-07, 11:42 PM :cheer:
18DELTA
11-11-07, 01:24 AM But... didnt the Tearfall create the Sea of Falling Stars? Or... was the Moonsea also a result of the Tearfall?
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Strife026
11-11-07, 04:23 AM Read -31000dr in GHotR to find out what caused Tearfall. It also tells you what body of water was created. The sidebar -349 is of a dragon telling how the ancient dragons tried to stop the rage that the elves created. The only problem i have with this excerpt is that there is no other mention of the event in GHotR. I would think a "draco-laser" would merit an exact date that it happened since it also created the tears and an inland sea. (which i think would be the Moonsea) So timeline wise, the "draco-laser" event would happen sometime after the dracorage mythal was build due to the dragons own comments that this event takes place during "the last days of the Reign of Dragons" which was caused by the elven creation of said mythal.
MarkusTay63
11-11-07, 02:06 PM You guys having the same Avatar confused the s__t out of me. :uh-huh:

Funny - not only did I create THAT Avatar, but I also coined "Draco-laser". :P

Anyhow, the problem arises in that the event described in -31,000 DR (THE Tearfall) must be unrelated to the event described in -349 DR - an event that took place at an indeterminate time in the past. As the OP has pointed out, it can't be the same event because The Tearfall occurred BEFORE the Dracorage Mythal was erected, which is referenced during this 'second tearfall'.

Ergo, this 'other event' is most likely the one referenced in the Parwiccan Cycle - a Draconic 'holy book' of sorts that contains what little humans know of dragon History. THAT event also precluded the Seven Turn Winter, which I believe is refernced in one of the other vingettes. I thought it was in the Kobold/Urd one, but it wasn't - anyone else remember where that one might be? It was when the world grew dark (clouds of dust/ash?) and there was no vegetation growth or sunlight for seven years - also the climate was said to have shifted dramatically, which might have been the cause for the Dragons rapid mutation into their modern form (they started out more like the Norse Dragons - the Linnorm).

Interestingly, the Koblold entry does mention the creation of a 'Hidden Lake', and then goes on to say that they settled in the Moonsea area. Since this takes place immediately following the events of the Dracorage Mythal (and the 'Draco-laser'), it may very well be related to the second tearfall and the creation of the Moonsea.

Good researching there, BurningTiger. :D
18DELTA
11-11-07, 05:48 PM So was it two events that we are talking about? What was the name of the Dale that was hit by a comet also? I think it was called Mistledale right? Could these events possibly be related?:D
BurningTiger
11-11-07, 06:46 PM :cheer:
Thank you Mr. James :tiphat:

But... didn't the Tearfall create the Sea of Falling Stars? Or... was the Moonsea also a result of the Tearfall?
So was it two events that we are talking about? What was the name of the Dale that was hit by a comet also? I think it was called Mistledale right? Could these events possibly be related?:D
Yes the Tearfall created the Sea of Falling Stars and yes, the point I was making was that the Tearfall and the event described in the sidebar I quoted must be two separate, unrelated events. As Markus and Strife have also stated.

And as for Mistledale (or any dale for that matter); humans didn't settle the area later known as the Dalelands until around -255 after the fall of Jhaamdath. So were talking over 24,000 year difference there. My answer would be no.

Ergo, this 'other event' is most likely the one referenced in the Parwiccan Cycle - a Draconic 'holy book' of sorts that contains what little humans know of dragon History. THAT event also precluded the Seven Turn Winter, which I believe is refernced in one of the other vingettes. I thought it was in the Kobold/Urd one, but it wasn't - anyone else remember where that one might be? It was when the world grew dark (clouds of dust/ash?) and there was no vegetation growth or sunlight for seven years - also the climate was said to have shifted dramatically, which might have been the cause for the Dragons rapid mutation into their modern form (the started out more like the Norse Dragons - the Linnorm).

The sidebar you're looking for is, "-31500: Legacy of the Batrachi." It hardly mentions the Seven Turn Winter and says it was the cause of the Batrachi decline. The entry about the Tearfall (c. -31000) also states, "The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the Batrachi civilazation." I take this to mean that the Seven Turn Winter was caused by the Tearfall event.

Interestingly, the Koblold entry does mention the creation of a 'Hidden Lake', and then goes on to say that they settled in the Moonsea area. Since this takes place immediately following the events of the Dracorage Mythal (and the 'Draco-laser'), it may very well be related to the second tearfall and the creation of the Moonsea.

That is interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.
Hmm... I wonder if that's why the Moonsea was also called the Dragons' Sea?...

Good researching there, BurningTiger.
Thank you :tiphat:
David_Eitelbach
11-12-07, 12:26 AM That is interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.
Hmm... I wonder if that's why the Moonsea was also called the Dragons' Sea?...

I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Moonsea was once called the Dragons' Sea because flights of dragons flying over the lake once used to be a common sight.
Gray Richardson
11-12-07, 03:54 AM You all are overlooking one crucial fact. The "Draco-Laser" information is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator, and should not necessarily be considered as fact. The information is suspect in part or in whole and must be taken with a grain of salt.

Consider that the dragon is relating this information 25,000 years after the fact.

Consider also that he doesn't claim to have witnessed the event, or even to have been alive at the time. He states merely that his ancestors did it. He doesn't even say how he came by the info, so we don't know who told him or how he knows any of this.

Consider further that Eric Boyd (the author of said text) likes to insert conflicting red-herring explanations for ancient, mythological, or cosmic events into his writing to add to the mystery of such things and inspire debate and discussion among the fans.

Anything stated as a fact in the entries of the timeline itself should be considered canonical, however anything stated in the words of a narrator or historical text in the sidebars is considered apocryphal and unreliable. It may be partially true, or it might be completely false. It could be an intentional or inadvertent lie, or propaganda on the part of the narrator. It could be a biased account, or the narrator might believe it to be fact even though the information is wrong. The narrator might have mixed up events from different time periods together, or could be repeating a legend or lie that someone told to him. You can't accept the sidebars as fact. They are merely historical accounts of unverifiable credibility.

Only the timeline entries can be considered gospel. The sidebars give historical flavor. The sidebars present theories, historical perspectives or "facts" that their in-game authors may (or may not) believe to be true, but whether the information is actually true cannot be determined for certain.

In this particular case, we can't be certain that the 7 hills are really a laser. Even if they are, we cannot assume it was truly responsible for the creation of Selune's tears. Or there may have been 2 tearfall incidents. Or it's possible the hills had something to do with a dragon-led effort to combat the draco-rage mythal, but may not have actually had anything to do with the tears. Or it could be some bogus legend his parents or draconic priests told him. No way to know for sure.
:dragon:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BurningTiger 11-10-07, 06:57 PM	In the GHotR, the sidebar titled "-349: Kisonraathiisar's slow demise" mentions a draco-laser (as some have called it) that the dragons tried to use to destroy the King-Killer Star, but instead "scored only a glancing blow on the moon..., leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure." Some have suggested that this inland sea is the Sea of Falling Stars, and that this event is referring to the Tearfall. This scenario causes problems in that the Dracorage Mythal, that the dragons were trying to stop by destoying the King-Killer Star, wasn't built until 6000 years after the Tearfall. So instead of being the cause of the Tearfall, what if the inland sea the crashing piece of the moon created was instead the Moonsea?! Is there any lore that might contradict this? *Note: I realize the Moonsea was also known as the Dragons' Sea but that still supports this scenario since dragons were the cause of it.
David_Eitelbach 11-10-07, 11:07 PM	Well, personally I always viewed the Moonsea as a naturally created body of water, especially considering that it is freshwater and was once in an area that was covered by the Great Glacier. I imagined that it was carved by the glacier eons ago. Is the Lake of Steam a possibility? I'm not extremely well-versed in Realmslore, but I don't think I've ever read about how that body of water was formed?
BurningTiger 11-10-07, 11:39 PM	I suppose it's possible. It could have very well been any inland sea. Just not during the Tearfall. Really my biggest problem were the things some people thought up to explain the time anomalies that would have to happen for it to create the Sea of Fallen Stars during the Tearfall. (I don't remember what thread this was discussed in and I can't seem to find it again) I just figured I'd put 2 and 2 together. A piece of the moon crashing to Toril and creating an inland sea. Moon + Sea = Moonsea And who said that glaciers melting into a crater created by a fallen piece of the moon wasn't natural? :D
Iakhovas 11-10-07, 11:42 PM	:cheer:
18DELTA 11-11-07, 01:24 AM	But... didnt the Tearfall create the Sea of Falling Stars? Or... was the Moonsea also a result of the Tearfall? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Strife026 11-11-07, 04:23 AM	Read -31000dr in GHotR to find out what caused Tearfall. It also tells you what body of water was created. The sidebar -349 is of a dragon telling how the ancient dragons tried to stop the rage that the elves created. The only problem i have with this excerpt is that there is no other mention of the event in GHotR. I would think a "draco-laser" would merit an exact date that it happened since it also created the tears and an inland sea. (which i think would be the Moonsea) So timeline wise, the "draco-laser" event would happen sometime after the dracorage mythal was build due to the dragons own comments that this event takes place during "the last days of the Reign of Dragons" which was caused by the elven creation of said mythal.
MarkusTay63 11-11-07, 02:06 PM	You guys having the same Avatar confused the s__t out of me. :uh-huh: Funny - not only did I create THAT Avatar, but I also coined "Draco-laser". :P Anyhow, the problem arises in that the event described in -31,000 DR (THE Tearfall) must be unrelated to the event described in -349 DR - an event that took place at an indeterminate time in the past. As the OP has pointed out, it can't be the same event because The Tearfall occurred BEFORE the Dracorage Mythal was erected, which is referenced during this 'second tearfall'. Ergo, this 'other event' is most likely the one referenced in the Parwiccan Cycle - a Draconic 'holy book' of sorts that contains what little humans know of dragon History. THAT event also precluded the Seven Turn Winter, which I believe is refernced in one of the other vingettes. I thought it was in the Kobold/Urd one, but it wasn't - anyone else remember where that one might be? It was when the world grew dark (clouds of dust/ash?) and there was no vegetation growth or sunlight for seven years - also the climate was said to have shifted dramatically, which might have been the cause for the Dragons rapid mutation into their modern form (they started out more like the Norse Dragons - the Linnorm). Interestingly, the Koblold entry does mention the creation of a 'Hidden Lake', and then goes on to say that they settled in the Moonsea area. Since this takes place immediately following the events of the Dracorage Mythal (and the 'Draco-laser'), it may very well be related to the second tearfall and the creation of the Moonsea. Good researching there, BurningTiger. :D
18DELTA 11-11-07, 05:48 PM	So was it two events that we are talking about? What was the name of the Dale that was hit by a comet also? I think it was called Mistledale right? Could these events possibly be related?:D
BurningTiger 11-11-07, 06:46 PM	:cheer: Thank you Mr. James :tiphat: But... didn't the Tearfall create the Sea of Falling Stars? Or... was the Moonsea also a result of the Tearfall? So was it two events that we are talking about? What was the name of the Dale that was hit by a comet also? I think it was called Mistledale right? Could these events possibly be related?:D Yes the Tearfall created the Sea of Falling Stars and yes, the point I was making was that the Tearfall and the event described in the sidebar I quoted must be two separate, unrelated events. As Markus and Strife have also stated. And as for Mistledale (or any dale for that matter); humans didn't settle the area later known as the Dalelands until around -255 after the fall of Jhaamdath. So were talking over 24,000 year difference there. My answer would be no. Ergo, this 'other event' is most likely the one referenced in the Parwiccan Cycle - a Draconic 'holy book' of sorts that contains what little humans know of dragon History. THAT event also precluded the Seven Turn Winter, which I believe is refernced in one of the other vingettes. I thought it was in the Kobold/Urd one, but it wasn't - anyone else remember where that one might be? It was when the world grew dark (clouds of dust/ash?) and there was no vegetation growth or sunlight for seven years - also the climate was said to have shifted dramatically, which might have been the cause for the Dragons rapid mutation into their modern form (the started out more like the Norse Dragons - the Linnorm). The sidebar you're looking for is, "-31500: Legacy of the Batrachi." It hardly mentions the Seven Turn Winter and says it was the cause of the Batrachi decline. The entry about the Tearfall (c. -31000) also states, "The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the Batrachi civilazation." I take this to mean that the Seven Turn Winter was caused by the Tearfall event. Interestingly, the Koblold entry does mention the creation of a 'Hidden Lake', and then goes on to say that they settled in the Moonsea area. Since this takes place immediately following the events of the Dracorage Mythal (and the 'Draco-laser'), it may very well be related to the second tearfall and the creation of the Moonsea. That is interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Hmm... I wonder if that's why the Moonsea was also called the Dragons' Sea?... Good researching there, BurningTiger. Thank you :tiphat:
David_Eitelbach 11-12-07, 12:26 AM	That is interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Hmm... I wonder if that's why the Moonsea was also called the Dragons' Sea?... I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Moonsea was once called the Dragons' Sea because flights of dragons flying over the lake once used to be a common sight.
Gray Richardson 11-12-07, 03:54 AM	You all are overlooking one crucial fact. The "Draco-Laser" information is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator, and should not necessarily be considered as fact. The information is suspect in part or in whole and must be taken with a grain of salt. Consider that the dragon is relating this information 25,000 years after the fact. Consider also that he doesn't claim to have witnessed the event, or even to have been alive at the time. He states merely that his ancestors did it. He doesn't even say how he came by the info, so we don't know who told him or how he knows any of this. Consider further that Eric Boyd (the author of said text) likes to insert conflicting red-herring explanations for ancient, mythological, or cosmic events into his writing to add to the mystery of such things and inspire debate and discussion among the fans. Anything stated as a fact in the entries of the timeline itself should be considered canonical, however anything stated in the words of a narrator or historical text in the sidebars is considered apocryphal and unreliable. It may be partially true, or it might be completely false. It could be an intentional or inadvertent lie, or propaganda on the part of the narrator. It could be a biased account, or the narrator might believe it to be fact even though the information is wrong. The narrator might have mixed up events from different time periods together, or could be repeating a legend or lie that someone told to him. You can't accept the sidebars as fact. They are merely historical accounts of unverifiable credibility. Only the timeline entries can be considered gospel. The sidebars give historical flavor. The sidebars present theories, historical perspectives or "facts" that their in-game authors may (or may not) believe to be true, but whether the information is actually true cannot be determined for certain. In this particular case, we can't be certain that the 7 hills are really a laser. Even if they are, we cannot assume it was truly responsible for the creation of Selune's tears. Or there may have been 2 tearfall incidents. Or it's possible the hills had something to do with a dragon-led effort to combat the draco-rage mythal, but may not have actually had anything to do with the tears. Or it could be some bogus legend his parents or draconic priests told him. No way to know for sure. :dragon: