Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Son of Shar 11-24-05, 03:46 PM	Fantasy deities being what they are (I offer Zeus as an example), it's not inconceivable that certain deities had dalliances whilst mortal as a result of Ao's decree during the Time of Troubles. What I'm wondering is what the offspring of those... umm... encounters (wonder what the CR is?) would be like. See, it's not quite clear to me (as I haven't read the relevant novels) exactly what happened to the gods during that time. Sure, they were made mortal - but how mortal? Just exactly the same as any other epic-level PC with 40+ levels? Or something more akin to an avatar? The battle between Torm and Bane had Torm absorbing the souls of his faithful to give him extra power, something a Paladin 20/Fighter 20 wouldn't be able to do. As such, whilst a child produced by a union between such a hamstrung deity and a mortal wouldn't have the power of someone with Divine Rank 0, would they have any special powers at all? Have any of the novels covered the "fruits" of the Time of Troubles?
Snarkbone 11-24-05, 04:04 PM	my first post on these boards was about children of gods in general (not just during ToT) and concensus is that Ao has to aprove a child being DvR0 or higher, so you have to decide (or your GM has to do it) if Ao gives his blessing to this "extra curricular" activity of said gods. if he doesn't then the child should be a normal being, with perhaps greater affinity for things the divine parent stands for, but unlikely to have greater power. (he might learn faster though, so over time he might become stronger than his peers of same age or greater). Also very few deities were documented in novels, so a lot are completley open to imagination.
The Son of Shar 11-24-05, 04:43 PM	Interesting. I assumed Ao wouldn't get involved, since DR 0 characters don't have to have a portfolio or worshippers. Thinking along the lines of my username, I was guessing such a child might effectively inherit a Chosen or equivalent template, so in Shar's case a brat might get all the positive aspects of the Shade template without ECL adjustment, and a child of Lolth would get all the Drow special abilities without light blindness and the +2 ECL, that sort of thing.
Darth_Azalin 11-24-05, 05:23 PM	Zeus had a quite a few kids that were in fact just mortals Hercules Perseus Castor and Polydeuces Clytemnestra Helen of Troy Minos, Rhadamanthys and Sarpedo Dionysus Also you have to include the Muses and the Charites and that is when Zeus was the Supreme Being in all of his glory...
Darth_Azalin 11-24-05, 05:25 PM	Also there are a few Drow gods that are children of Lloth and well they don't fair all that well with Mom..
Zevox 11-24-05, 05:26 PM	During the ToT, the Gods were basically confined to Avatars: however, they couldn't just create those avatars, they had to take over the body of a mortal to take physical form (though some, like Mask, chose to take avatars other than the bodies of living or formerly-living creatures... won't say more on that matter if you've not read the novels). They were still much more powerful than most mortals, and unless I miss my guess still had some of thier divine abilities to a limited extent. As for children of Gods from the ToT, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few. Perhaps Sune or Sharess decided they weren't too high-and-mighty to accept a mortal's favors whilst stuck in mortal forms, or maybe Lathander or Shaundakul found themselves feeling a bit lonely. However, I can't think of any cannon ones offhand. On what they'd be like, I think Snarkbone's post covers the "will-they-be-deities?" question. As far as whether they'd have special abilities, I'd say Mystra's daughters provide with a nice precedant for this. Though they weren't the product of the ToT, the situation was much the same, with Mystra inhabiting a mortal woman's body at the time. All of them are standard Humans (and a Drow). Mystra subsequently chose to make them Chosen, but they weren't born such, nor with any unique abilities (unless that was great potential with magic). So I'd say mortal children of such a ToT God/mortal coupling would be normal mortals, though with a good chance that thier divine parent ay take some special interest in them, and perhaps with greater potential with those things thier divine parent embodies (a chidl of Tyr, for isntance, coudl have incredible potential as a Paladin; or a child of Oghma may be a natural-born loremaster; or a child of Tempus could be possessed of incredible potential as a fighter or barbarian, ect.). Zevox
Snarkbone 11-24-05, 08:10 PM	As far as whether they'd have special abilities, I'd say Mystra's daughters provide with a nice precedant for this. Though they weren't the product of the ToT, the situation was much the same, with Mystra inhabiting a mortal woman's body at the time. All of them are standard Humans (and a Drow). I'd like to point out that that is not in anyway similar to ToT situation, when it comes to Mystra's children, Ao explicitly ordered Mystra to make them the way they are to reduce her personal power since creating chosen of certain power takes equal amount of power from the deity, she was getting too powerful. Ao apparently doesn't like domination of one side, he wants good and evil in balance, and as much as Mystra tries to be neutral (on Ao's orders again) she still leans to good and tries to favor good mages.
BrianCritchley 11-24-05, 08:22 PM	it is exactly the situation as Mystra was inhabbiting a mortal body etc, one can surmise as such that this is indeed the case. anywho the 7 sisters where indeed special. they all have levels of sourcerer, one can surmise a godchild would have some innate magical ability. the seven sisters are also physically VERY striking. they are all (including quile' which suggests it's the influence of Mystra) pretty tall, 6 feet.
Gray Richardson 11-24-05, 08:30 PM	I would think the children of good gods would be either mortal or aasimar. Likewise the children of bad gods would have either normal mortal children or possibly tieflings. If the kid were the child of Gruumbar, Istishia, Kossuth or Akadi, well then you might possibly get a genasi. The god-kings of Mulhorand and Unther have been spawining aasimar for thousands of years, so this kinda thing has certainly been going on since long before the ToT.
ZolDarklock 11-24-05, 09:38 PM	Xvim "the godson" stats should be used as a guide for any half god child, I not sure who Xvim's mother was but she was not a divine being, she was just a sorceress from a lower plane...
BrianCritchley 11-24-05, 10:01 PM	a demon is a bit differnt from a mortal human.
Zevox 11-25-05, 09:16 AM	Xvim "the godson" stats should be used as a guide for any half god child, I not sure who Xvim's mother was but she was not a divine being, she was just a sorceress from a lower plane... Xvim's mother was a demon, not a normal mortal by any means. Further, Bane wasn't inhabbiting a mortal's body when she conceived him. The circumstances are a bit different. I'd like to point out that that is not in anyway similar to ToT situation, when it comes to Mystra's children, Ao explicitly ordered Mystra to make them the way they are to reduce her personal power since creating chosen of certain power takes equal amount of power from the deity, she was getting too powerful. Ao apparently doesn't like domination of one side, he wants good and evil in balance, and as much as Mystra tries to be neutral (on Ao's orders again) she still leans to good and tries to favor good mages. True, but what I meant is that the way thier conception and birth worked was essentially the same: Mystra inhabbited the body of a mortal and reproduced with another mortal. She wasn't stuck in that form the way the Gods were in the ToT, but she was in the same essential state, albeit with more of her power availalble to her. The circumstances behind these acts may be different, but circumstances which would affect the type and abilities of the resulting child are essentially the same. Zevox
Dargoth 11-25-05, 06:41 PM	Chosen would be to powerful, I child of a God/Goddess would probably at most have one of the Half Outsider Templates depending on the alignment of their divine parent. The most well known example of a god sleeping around during the Time of Troubles is of course Bhaal and his Bhaalspawn from BG games
Borris 11-26-05, 02:26 AM	Dragon Magazine #288 apparently has a Bhaalspawn template. I haven't seen it, but I'm guessing it would make a great starting point to determine the stats of the child of a mortal and a god in avatar form.
The Son of Shar 11-26-05, 05:11 AM	I thought about the Bhaalspawn, but I thought Bhaal fathered his progeny before the ToT, having gained an inkling he might snuff it? That's what the Prophecy of Alaundo segment at the start of Baldur's Gate 2 would imply anyway.
KenderBryant 11-26-05, 02:47 PM	The Bhaalspawn aren't just video game stuff, with a mention in Silicon Sorcery (in the Fear issue of Dragon). According to LEoF (Lost Empires of Faerun) pg 42 they are 100% legit. I originally thought that they were a "what if" situation for the video games, but now they are completely official.
Kuje31 11-26-05, 03:59 PM	The Bhaalspawn aren't just video game stuff, with a mention in Silicon Sorcery (in the Fear issue of Dragon). According to LEoF (Lost Empires of Faerun) pg 42 they are 100% legit. I originally thought that they were a "what if" situation for the video games, but now they are completely official. And they were in 2e since there's novels and other articles in Dragon for them. :)
Gallameed 11-26-05, 04:12 PM	Dragon Magazine #288 apparently has a Bhaalspawn template. I haven't seen it, but I'm guessing it would make a great starting point to determine the stats of the child of a mortal and a god in avatar form. Yup, p.100. It has advantages and penalties depending on Hit Dice. Is 3.0 though. :)
BrianCritchley 11-26-05, 04:57 PM	I wish they'd post it updated to 3.5 as a web article here. let's face it, bhaal and the bhaalspawn are pretty popular.
Dargoth 11-26-05, 06:41 PM	The Bhaalspawn aren't just video game stuff, with a mention in Silicon Sorcery (in the Fear issue of Dragon). According to LEoF (Lost Empires of Faerun) pg 42 they are 100% legit. I originally thought that they were a "what if" situation for the video games, but now they are completely official. The Bhaalspawn are (as of LEOF), but the BG story line isnt
Kuje31 11-26-05, 06:54 PM	The Bhaalspawn are (as of LEOF), but the BG story line isnt Dargoth, You're wrong again since the 2e novels are canon. You keep repeating this and you've never shown any evidence to prove your theory that the bhaalspawn novels aren't canon and the authors of the novels have said the novels are canon, as is the 2e Dragon articles, as is the WOTC timeline. As is Ed's 2e sourcebook and he's even said he believes that the novels are canon. So please stop repeating this because you are giving wrong information.
Ulfr 11-26-05, 07:00 PM	Dargoth, You're wrong again since the 2e novels are canon. You keep repeating this and you've never shown any evidence to prove your theory that the bhaalspawn novels aren't canon and the authors of the novels have said the novels are canon, as is the 2e Dragon articles, as is the WOTC timeline. So please stop repeating this because you are giving wrong information. Is that inclusive of the pantaloons? Why would anyone need to be a god-child with the pantaloons? JE-BUS. I've been outta the loop with Dragon, it's good to know the bhaal-spawn stuff is cannon.
Kuje31 11-26-05, 07:10 PM	Is that inclusive of the pantaloons? Why would anyone need to be a god-child with the pantaloons? JE-BUS. I've been outta the loop with Dragon, it's good to know the bhaal-spawn stuff is cannon. You lost me on the pantaloons.... what?
The Son of Shar 11-27-05, 08:32 AM	You lost me on the pantaloons.... what? IIRC, there was a mysterious item in the first Baldur's Gate game - a pair of silver pantaloons with an interesting description but no apparent powers. They, unlike most unimportant items in your inventory, stayed with your character if you imported it into BG2. There was then a pair of gold pantaloons somewhere in that game. If you imported both of these into Throne of Bhaal and found the next pair of pantaloons, they magically combined into a powerful piece of magical clothing.
Kuje31 11-27-05, 11:35 AM	IIRC, there was a mysterious item in the first Baldur's Gate game - a pair of silver pantaloons with an interesting description but no apparent powers. They, unlike most unimportant items in your inventory, stayed with your character if you imported it into BG2. There was then a pair of gold pantaloons somewhere in that game. If you imported both of these into Throne of Bhaal and found the next pair of pantaloons, they magically combined into a powerful piece of magical clothing. Oh, Well dunno if they are in the canon world but why not. :)
Ioulaum 11-27-05, 12:03 PM	Zeus had a quite a few kids that were in fact just mortals Hercules Perseus Castor and Polydeuces Clytemnestra Helen of Troy Minos, Rhadamanthys and Sarpedo Dionysus Also you have to include the Muses and the Charites and that is when Zeus was the Supreme Being in all of his glory... Just to nitpick Dionysus is a minor god of wine and drunkness and orgies. And a intresting little fact. Hercules is decended form Perseus.
dragonheart 11-27-05, 06:38 PM	a couple of things to keep track of in this discussion - the time of troubles was too short for any of the female gods to have gone through a full pregnancy (except Waukeen and in her adventure module (for god and glory) she is not pregnant so she is ruled out)so by the time the time of troubles end so any chalid they might have concieved would be a child of a full god. Second 0 why would a goddess want to have a child in her weakened condition? Of course none of this applies to the male gods and they (especially the warroir ones) may well have fathered several children on unsuspecting (or for that matter knowing and superproud followers) women. to be strictly conon these would be DvR0 but that is a very powerful set of extras and I (at least) would rule the children to be half-outsiders of the appropriate type. children fathered on unsuspecting women especially - any child fathered on a knowing and willing follower is likely to be somewhat more powerful as its a planned child of the god and probably imbued with a bit of something extra ala the chosen.
ZolDarklock 12-02-05, 01:44 AM	The Old Empires accessory is full of God-kings..mortal gods that walked the realms daily, and they had children that had children to carry on their line...that would be a good book to consult since it had the stats for very many mortal-gods listed two full pantheons, and they had their manifestation and incarnation stats and a basic set of rules on how to wrute one up and what powers it would have in case you needed to expand on the pantheons and add new children that took there places, in Mulhorand and Unther many of the citizens from there haver the bloodline of gods that is why the place had so many people with high natural ability scores...
The Son of Shar 12-02-05, 03:51 AM	a couple of things to keep track of in this discussion - the time of troubles was too short for any of the female gods to have gone through a full pregnancy (except Waukeen and in her adventure module (for god and glory) she is not pregnant so she is ruled out)so by the time the time of troubles end so any chalid they might have concieved would be a child of a full god. Second 0 why would a goddess want to have a child in her weakened condition? Well, this is why I wanted to know exactly what abilities the deities had when trapped in mortal form. Avatars are still effectively gods (they have divine ranks) so that doesn't seem right, so I figured they were trapped in mortal bodies but still possessing their high number of class levels. Given the powers available to a high level wizard/sorceror/cleric, I would assume a goddess could magically advance her pregnancy. As for why they might choose to have a child whilst weakened - it would be the perfect time to create a powerful future agent on Faerun without the other deities being able to know about it via scrying...
Zandilar 12-02-05, 07:53 PM	Heya, You're wrong again since the 2e novels are canon. You keep repeating this and you've never shown any evidence to prove your theory that the bhaalspawn novels aren't canon and the authors of the novels have said the novels are canon, as is the 2e Dragon articles, as is the WOTC timeline. As is Ed's 2e sourcebook and he's even said he believes that the novels are canon. So please stop repeating this because you are giving wrong information. Kuje, my understanding of the matter goes like this... The BG and BG2 novels were published with 2nd Edition, LoEF with 3rd Edition... At the end of the BG novels ALL of the Bhaalspawn are dead, and Abdul gave up the last of Bhaal's essence to essentially become mortal again. As you can see, LoEF directly contradicts the ending of the novels what with the Bhaalspawn all being dead and all, so how can the novels be canon? And to address the OP's question: I know of only one deity who took a lover during the Time of Troubles that was subsequentally named in a sourcebook, and that was Lliira. According to Faiths and Pantheons, Her lover was Selgaunt's High Revelmistress Chalanna Asjros (who was later killed by Loviatarans much to Lliira's grief). Sharess most likely would have had a lot of sex, but not nesecarily with the same person each time and probably had enough power to prevent any consequences (since She was partying hard at the time, probably both prior to and after Sune rescued Her from Shar). Logically, not all of the deities would be interested in taking mortal lovers (and all would have enough power to avoid a pregnancy occuring if that was their will)... The LN Mystra, for example, was more concerned with survival and getting herself the heck back to Her plane. Other gods were busily finding and slaying/fighting (and possibly seducing) other gods, Tymora fought Beshaba, for example, Shar fought Selune, and killed Ibrandul (Lathander and Chauntea quite possibly got together, since they were already lovers :D).
Kuje31 12-02-05, 08:55 PM	Heya, Kuje, my understanding of the matter goes like this... The BG and BG2 novels were published with 2nd Edition, LoEF with 3rd Edition... At the end of the BG novels ALL of the Bhaalspawn are dead, and Abdul gave up the last of Bhaal's essence to essentially become mortal again. As you can see, LoEF directly contradicts the ending of the novels what with the Bhaalspawn all being dead and all, so how can the novels be canon? Um? The same way other novels and material that is canon have been contradicted in some form or another? Show me absolute proof that the novels are not canon when Ed has said he assumes they are, his sourcebook for that game is, the Dragon articles are, the authors have said the novels are, and the Bhaalspawn have now been mentioned in 3.5e and WOTC still lists them as canon novels on thier web page timeline. So, I repeat, show me proof that the novels are not canon otherwise my evidence shows that they are even if WOTC has changed the ending of the novels. Spreaking of them changing the ending, so what? It still doesn't make the novels not canon. TSR/WOTC has changed a lot of things in various novels and sourcebooks but those novels and sourcebooks are still canon in some form or another. For instance, the Earthmother in the Moonshae's. She never returned as a seperate and different deity because she was always a part of Chauntea according to late 2e and 3/3.5e material, but it doesn't mean the events in the Moonshae trilogies never happened or those novels are not canon.
LucyWanabe 12-02-05, 09:24 PM	Eh, I always figured the child of a god or a powerful celestial/infernal creature would be either Aasmiar, Tiefling, or Genasi (or perhaps, one of the half templates--half celestial, half fiendish, or half elemental).