The World Serpent [Archive] - Wizards Community

The World Serpent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Minstrel Poet
09-19-03, 03:47 PM What exactly is The World Serpent?
Is it an idea?
An elder god?
What?
Gez
09-19-03, 04:17 PM Originally posted by Minstrel Poet
What exactly is The World Serpent?
Is it an idea?
An elder god?
What?

World Serpent Inn (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010921a)

But I guess it wasn't that you were speaking about.

The World Serpent is the translation for "Ourobouros", whose symbol is a serpent (or dragon) biting its tongue. It's a symbol of holisticism, of life, or infinity, and of creative power. Several mythologies acknowledge a dragon of cosmic size as the creator principle, and...

It could be a very interesting discussion, but since we're in the FR forum, I think I'll have to say that, as far as I know, there is no World Serpent in the FR cosmology.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
09-19-03, 04:23 PM I could have sworn there was *something* like this worshipped by various reptilian peoples, but then again I am not sure.
Gez
09-19-03, 04:50 PM It could be Io, the draconic overdeity (who is supposed to be in fact another name of Ao).
Agent 23
09-19-03, 05:50 PM Perhaps the inquisitive Minstrel Poet means the “Night Serpent,” Dendar? Since she is more relevant to the Forgotten Realms.

You can learn more about this supernatural she-serpent HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/elderevil).

PRAISE TALOS!!!
http://www.q2ware.com/images/MichaelCBreton.com.l78000.456.imgTop.1.S trmlrd_cloud1.gif
http://www.q2ware.com/images/MichaelCBreton.com.l452405.458.imgTop.1. Strmlrd_blink2.gif
A23
Shemeska the Marauder
09-20-03, 04:48 AM At some point one of the creator races (the saurian one) or one of their offspring races referred to the Nether Scrolls as 'the golden scales of the world serpent'. And heavily implied it was of origin of that original saurian race. Apparently the Serpent Kingdoms book for FR due out later this year will have more info on this, and the Nether Scrolls in general (aka dispelling the myth of any sort of elven origin for them, thankfully...)

This may be referring to just a concept or a term, or an aspect of another power now dead or forgotten they worshipped. Or more likely a extraplanar entity not in the FR pantheon, but nonetheless in existance somewhere at one point anyways.

There's also an inn called the World Serpent Inn that connects to Arabel in Cormyr and from there to Sigil. It was first detailed in 1e, and more recently brought back as a web enhancement to the MotP, which frankly I didn't like since the idea the 1e World Serpent Inn was, Sigil became in 2e and did so in a much more detailed, coherant, and viable manner. *shrug*

Then there's, as other folks have mentioned, Dendar the 'Night Serpent' one of the elder evils of FR.
Addi83
10-01-03, 06:39 AM In norse mythology, the World serpent (Miðgarðsormur) was a child of Loki, who lived in the outer sea, it was the nemesis of Thor, and they fought on many occasions.

In Ragnarök (the apocalypse) they have their final showdown, where Thor kills it, but succumbs to its poison and dies afterwards. (Imagine a poison that can kill the God of strength (str 96 or so with his bracers which double a persons strength, cant remember the con, but it´s high.))
Masakado
10-01-03, 09:39 AM Originally posted by Addi83
In norse mythology, the World serpent (Miðgarðsormur) was a child of Loki, who lived in the outer sea, it was the nemesis of Thor, and they fought on many occasions.

:confused:

I hope that Miðgarðsormur means "Midgard Serpent."

I always thought it's proper name was Jormungandr.

:confused:

During Ragnarok, Jormungandr will be slain by Thor, but Thor will drown in the ocean while being poisoned by Jormungandr's venom.
Nasheen
10-01-03, 10:53 AM I always thought it's proper name was Jormungandr.

And you are right, the correct name is Jormungandr.

During Ragnarok, Jormungandr will be slain by Thor, but Thor will drown in the ocean while being poisoned by Jormungandr's venom.

I can be wrong, but i think that Thor wolud drwon on Jormungandr`s poison, not in the ocean.
Masakado
10-01-03, 11:05 AM Originally posted by Nasheen

I can be wrong, but i think that Thor wolud drwon on Jormungandr`s poison, not in the ocean.

I think this was the scenario.

It's been a long time since I picked up my copy of Bullfinch's Mythology. :D
^Graff
10-01-03, 11:15 AM In 2E planescape, the World Serpent lives in Hades and chews on the roots of Yggdrassil the World Tree. If you check the "100 adventure ideas" section of the 3e DMG, you'll see an adventure idea that says "Beneath the roots of the World Tree lies the Master Clock of Time." I never understood what that meant until I found a reference to it in a Planescape Supplement. Yggdrassil is a giant tree that stretches between the planes, just like the rivers Oceanus and Styx. The tree passes through every single plane and layer, including the astral and elemental planes.

The top of the tree rests on the upper (good aligned) outer planes, and the tree's roots rest on the lower planes. Most of the tree's roots are in Hades, where the world serpent lives.

When the World Serpent finally chews through the last root, the tree will fall over, tearing down most of the planes when it does. Ragnarok will then begin.

You have to remember that the Norse gods exist in 2e Planescape. That was why they were included in Deities and Demigods.
Shemeska the Marauder
10-01-03, 12:18 PM One thing to note here, Yggdrasil doesn't touch every layer of every outer plane. It touches those planes within which a deity of the Norse pantheon resides within a domain.

Like other planar pathways such as Oceanus, the Styx, and Mount Olympus it goes to a specific number of planes but not all of them.

Yggdrasil isn't Sigil in other words. :)

And even to those planes the World Ash reaches, it doesn't touch every single layer therein. For a single example, Yggdrasil reaches its branches into Elysium, but it doesn't reach into the 3rd layer, Belerian. That layer is largely sealed, and those portals that lead into the layer only go in and never out. While easy to enter by powerful spells, they fail on attempting to exit the layer and only transit by Oceanus allows a blood to exit the layer. The reason is singular and very very dark.
Addi83
10-01-03, 12:22 PM You´re right about the names of course, I just didn´t see the need to go into that much trivia. Jormungandur recides in the outer sea, as I said, encircling Miðgarð (the mortal realm).

Also, I think the creature gnawing at the roots of Askur Yggdrasill is not the worlds serpent. But then, I could be wrong, I read a book on this in high school, but I don´t remember all the details. Also, these descriptions often come from old icelandic poems which can be interpreted in a number of ways.

I´m not sure I´m remembering all the details correctly, but heres a nice story of an encounter between Thor and Jormungandur:

Once, Thor took on the guise of a young teen, and went to a giant who was a fisherman by the outer sea. He asked the giant if he could fish with him, which the giant thought was funny, but agreed. Then Thor rows the giants small bout extremely fast, and extremele far, ignoring the giants warnings that it´s dangerous. When Thor had gone out far enough he used a big anchor as a hook, and the head of a whale as bait. It wasn´t long before something took the bait and pulled the boat down, but Thor pushed against the ocean floor with his legs and started reeling it in, when it comes out of the water, revealing it to be Jormungandur. This scares the giant out of his wits, so he distracts Thor just as he is about to overcome the beast. So Jormungandur gets away. Thor was so mad that he killed the giant (giantslaying was his main hobby, after all) and than plowed to shore on foot.

Funny thing is, the Norse gods once made a mistake, they had Thor kill a builder who had been contracted to rebuild the walls of Asgard, after it was revealed that the builder was in fact a giant in disguise, and that Loki had promised him payment beyond what the Æsir (norse Gods) were willing to pay (namely, the sun, the moon, and Freya, the most beautiful goddess). Anyway killing someone, even a giant in disguise, after promising safety is a big sin in the norse mythology. So that was the Æsirs fall from grace, because even the gods aren´t immune to the universal laws of honor and fate. After the Gods were shown no to be totally honorable, it was clear that their reign would come to an end. Odin talks to an Oracle (Völva) who tells him about all this (even the details of Ragnarök) soon after the murder of the Giant builder. And most of the Gods exploits, including Odins trading of his eye for wisdom, were aimed at circumventing their own fate, which is impossible, even for the Gods.

Some things they did even hastened their end, like when Heimdallur (the sentinel of the Gods) traded his hearing for wisdom (both got it from Ýmir, who possessed a well of wisdom, no kidding, an actual well). So when the giants along with Jormungandur, Loki, the Fenris Wolf, Surtur and a few other big names come marching over the Bridge to Asgard (Bifröst) whom Heimdall was supposed to be guarding, he didn´t see them, as he was turned the other way, and didn´t have any hearing. His original hearing, btw. could have heard anything, as you would expect from a sentinel of Asgard. Certainly he would have heard a marching army of evil.

Anyway, sorry about the rant
JellyFishBrains
10-01-03, 03:20 PM how do ypu guys know so much stuff
Mr. FIXIT
10-01-03, 03:24 PM I believe that the dragon/worm gnawing at the roots of yggdrasil is Nidhug (it's name in danish). And that this is an evil different from the Jormungandr.
But then again I could be wrong... Can anyone confirm?
Masakado
10-01-03, 03:34 PM Originally posted by Mr. FIXIT
I believe that the dragon/worm gnawing at the roots of yggdrasil is Nidhug (it's name in danish). And that this is an evil different from the Jormungandr.
But then again I could be wrong... Can anyone confirm?

You are indeed correct, sir.

The dragon's name is Niddhogr, but it's also known as "The One Who Strikes With Hatred," or something to that effect.

It has an army of snakes with it, & together they gnaw at the roots of the World Tree.

If memory serves me, there is an eagle that lives in the branches of Yggdrasil which creates the wind. The World Tree is kept from falling because the eagle insults the dragon. The messages to the dragon are relayed by a squirrel named Ratatosk, who is clever enough to hurl the insults from a safe distance.

The insults infuriate the dragon so much that he has to reply, & the roots of the World Tree grow back when Niddhogr's attention is distracted.

Wow. I can't believe I still remember that High School stuff.
Mr. FIXIT
10-01-03, 03:49 PM Memory serves us well sometimes (though it seems to serve me less frequently). I am glad I got Nidhug right (or Niddhogr if thats the more "correct" use of the name. The names of the Gods and creatures in the Norse Mythology have changed a bit in modern Danish).
But there is not a Jormungandr/midgaardsorm in the Realms is there? Is this not what this thread is about? :confused:
Masakado
10-01-03, 04:03 PM Originally posted by Mr. FIXIT
But there is not a Jormungandr/midgaardsorm in the Realms is there? Is this not what this thread is about? :confused:

This thread was an inquiry into what the World Serpent was.

It was properly identified as an inn, but then the discussion began to focus on the origin of the name of the inn, which led to the discussion of Jormungandr.

*whew*

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a FR version of Jormungandr tucked away somwhere, as there are a lot of parallels between the Fenris Wolf, of Norse legend, and the FR Kezef, the Chaos Hound.

Plenty of little bits are taken from here & there & tossed into good high fantasy.
Garen Thal
10-01-03, 04:36 PM According to Powers & Pantheons, the World Serpent was the "embodiment of life, wisdom, magic, and patience," worshipped by the sauroid creator race in long-ago Toril. As the creator race fragmented, so too did the aspects of the World Serpent they worshipped, some becoming gods in their own right, others being aspects of deities foreign to the World Serpent masquerading as (or subsuming) those aspects as the centuries past.

One such aspect of the World Serpent was Merrshaulk, patron of the yuan-ti. Merrshaulk was supplanted by Sseth, a yuan-ti who proclaimed himself the reincarnation of Merrshaulk, who as himself since been absorbed by Set (see Faiths and Pantheons and Races of Faerûn). Set is decidedly not an aspect of the World Serpent.

Other aspects of the World Serpent, if these gods still existed in the Realms, would be Semuanya (lizardfolk) and Shekinester (nagas), as both the races they serve as patrons to are descended from the unnamed creator race. Across the sea in Maztica, Qotal the Feathered Dragon would absolutely be an aspect of the World Serpent, even if he does not admit or even recognize that fact; the World Serpent is a universal concept, and would certainly apply to continents other than Faerûn that contain the appropriate deities.
Masakado
10-01-03, 04:42 PM Originally posted by Garen Thal
Other aspects of the World Serpent, if these gods still existed in the Realms, would be Semuanya (lizardfolk) and Shekinester (nagas), as both the races they serve as patrons to are descended from the unnamed creator race. Across the sea in Maztica, Qotal the Feathered Dragon would absolutely be an aspect of the World Serpent, even if he does not admit or even recognize that fact; the World Serpent is a universal concept, and would certainly apply to continents other than Faerûn that contain the appropriate deities.

Which means that we'll have to wait until the proposed scalyfolk sourcebook to get some clarification. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder
10-01-03, 05:14 PM Originally posted by Masakado
You are indeed correct, sir.

The dragon's name is Niddhogr, but it's also known as "The One Who Strikes With Hatred," or something to that effect.

It has an army of snakes with it, & together they gnaw at the roots of the World Tree.

If memory serves me, there is an eagle that lives in the branches of Yggdrasil which creates the wind. The World Tree is kept from falling because the eagle insults the dragon. The messages to the dragon are relayed by a squirrel named Ratatosk, who is clever enough to hurl the insults from a safe distance.

And looking back at the Planescape Box set, Planes of Conflict, the base of Yggdrasil in Hades does indeed have a dragonic entity named Nidhogg (slightly different spelling there, but I think we can assume its the same creature).

And whats more, the race of intelligent, squirrel-like beings who inhabit the branches of Yggdrasil are called none other than Ratatosk. *chuckle* They were cute little critters too. And good with butter and brown sugar. *fiendish grin* So I'm told.
Addi83
10-01-03, 07:34 PM Actually, the original name is Níðhöggur(or maybe Níðhöggr), danish has changed a lot, and so has icelandic, but it is still a lot closer to the original nordic language than any other. What you saw probably came from a danish source. The name means "one who strikes with hate". "Níð" is the same word we use for bullying and other cases where a strong (or just a very clever or popular) person uses his superiority to abuse others. Could also be used to describe some types of racism. "Höggur" means someone who strikes or hits, but the word is old and not used at all anymore.

I had to study this in school(I probably would even if I didn´t), but how do you guys know so much about it?
Amaranthine
11-13-03, 04:17 PM While easy to enter by powerful spells, they fail on attempting to exit the layer and only transit by Oceanus allows a blood to exit the layer. The reason is singular and very very dark.Is that in Manual of the Planes or a 2nd edition product?
I can't remember it in either event.

Can you shed light on the reason?
Shemeska the Marauder
11-13-03, 06:08 PM The MotP mentions rumors about that layer, ie. it is barely populated, there's occosional evil being found there, there may be something very powerful/very evil imprisoned there on the plane. The specifics are left dark for 3e however.

The 2e Planescape 'Planes of Conflict' box set was a bit more helpful in detailing the specifics, namely that the guardinals, in one of their crusades into the lower planes had stumbled across a beast that they called The Mother of Serpents.

Imagine the perfect hydra. A being to put Tiamat herself, the Queen of Chromatic Dragons to shame. The single orginal hydra to which all others are simply flawed, broken, shadows of itself. Terrible in aspect and awesome in power, and utterly evil.

They felt the beast was too much to allow loose on the planes, for fear the fiends would use it as a tool of conquest or set it loose upon a prime. And they attacked it, and they paid for their folly in their own blood. They were slaughtered.

Realizing that they couldn't kill the thing, they lured it back to Elysium and trapped it within the layer of Belarian and sealed the layer against divinations and transport magics. They left the only way out of the layer as physical transit along Oceanus, whose waters pained and repulsed the creature. And thus they kept it safe and isolated from the planes, forgotten except to themselves who have since kept watch over it from the fortress of Rubicon situated on an island in Oceanus, watching over Belarian.

At once, their act of entrapping the beast is both a racial triumph for the Guardinals, and a shame of theirs festering away on the layer of Belarian slowly corrupting its surroundings as the beast wanders and rages in the millennia since its capture.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Minstrel Poet 09-19-03, 03:47 PM	What exactly is The World Serpent? Is it an idea? An elder god? What?
Gez 09-19-03, 04:17 PM	Originally posted by Minstrel Poet What exactly is The World Serpent? Is it an idea? An elder god? What? World Serpent Inn (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010921a) But I guess it wasn't that you were speaking about. The World Serpent is the translation for "Ourobouros", whose symbol is a serpent (or dragon) biting its tongue. It's a symbol of holisticism, of life, or infinity, and of creative power. Several mythologies acknowledge a dragon of cosmic size as the creator principle, and... It could be a very interesting discussion, but since we're in the FR forum, I think I'll have to say that, as far as I know, there is no World Serpent in the FR cosmology.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-03, 04:23 PM	I could have sworn there was something like this worshipped by various reptilian peoples, but then again I am not sure.
Gez 09-19-03, 04:50 PM	It could be Io, the draconic overdeity (who is supposed to be in fact another name of Ao).
Agent 23 09-19-03, 05:50 PM	Perhaps the inquisitive Minstrel Poet means the “Night Serpent,” Dendar? Since she is more relevant to the Forgotten Realms. You can learn more about this supernatural she-serpent HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/elderevil). PRAISE TALOS!!! http://www.q2ware.com/images/MichaelCBreton.com.l78000.456.imgTop.1.S trmlrd_cloud1.gif http://www.q2ware.com/images/MichaelCBreton.com.l452405.458.imgTop.1. Strmlrd_blink2.gif A23
Shemeska the Marauder 09-20-03, 04:48 AM	At some point one of the creator races (the saurian one) or one of their offspring races referred to the Nether Scrolls as 'the golden scales of the world serpent'. And heavily implied it was of origin of that original saurian race. Apparently the Serpent Kingdoms book for FR due out later this year will have more info on this, and the Nether Scrolls in general (aka dispelling the myth of any sort of elven origin for them, thankfully...) This may be referring to just a concept or a term, or an aspect of another power now dead or forgotten they worshipped. Or more likely a extraplanar entity not in the FR pantheon, but nonetheless in existance somewhere at one point anyways. There's also an inn called the World Serpent Inn that connects to Arabel in Cormyr and from there to Sigil. It was first detailed in 1e, and more recently brought back as a web enhancement to the MotP, which frankly I didn't like since the idea the 1e World Serpent Inn was, Sigil became in 2e and did so in a much more detailed, coherant, and viable manner. shrug Then there's, as other folks have mentioned, Dendar the 'Night Serpent' one of the elder evils of FR.
Addi83 10-01-03, 06:39 AM	In norse mythology, the World serpent (Miðgarðsormur) was a child of Loki, who lived in the outer sea, it was the nemesis of Thor, and they fought on many occasions. In Ragnarök (the apocalypse) they have their final showdown, where Thor kills it, but succumbs to its poison and dies afterwards. (Imagine a poison that can kill the God of strength (str 96 or so with his bracers which double a persons strength, cant remember the con, but it´s high.))
Masakado 10-01-03, 09:39 AM	Originally posted by Addi83 In norse mythology, the World serpent (Miðgarðsormur) was a child of Loki, who lived in the outer sea, it was the nemesis of Thor, and they fought on many occasions. :confused: I hope that Miðgarðsormur means "Midgard Serpent." I always thought it's proper name was Jormungandr. :confused: During Ragnarok, Jormungandr will be slain by Thor, but Thor will drown in the ocean while being poisoned by Jormungandr's venom.
Nasheen 10-01-03, 10:53 AM	I always thought it's proper name was Jormungandr. And you are right, the correct name is Jormungandr. During Ragnarok, Jormungandr will be slain by Thor, but Thor will drown in the ocean while being poisoned by Jormungandr's venom. I can be wrong, but i think that Thor wolud drwon on Jormungandr`s poison, not in the ocean.
Masakado 10-01-03, 11:05 AM	Originally posted by Nasheen I can be wrong, but i think that Thor wolud drwon on Jormungandr`s poison, not in the ocean. I think this was the scenario. It's been a long time since I picked up my copy of Bullfinch's Mythology. :D
^Graff 10-01-03, 11:15 AM	In 2E planescape, the World Serpent lives in Hades and chews on the roots of Yggdrassil the World Tree. If you check the "100 adventure ideas" section of the 3e DMG, you'll see an adventure idea that says "Beneath the roots of the World Tree lies the Master Clock of Time." I never understood what that meant until I found a reference to it in a Planescape Supplement. Yggdrassil is a giant tree that stretches between the planes, just like the rivers Oceanus and Styx. The tree passes through every single plane and layer, including the astral and elemental planes. The top of the tree rests on the upper (good aligned) outer planes, and the tree's roots rest on the lower planes. Most of the tree's roots are in Hades, where the world serpent lives. When the World Serpent finally chews through the last root, the tree will fall over, tearing down most of the planes when it does. Ragnarok will then begin. You have to remember that the Norse gods exist in 2e Planescape. That was why they were included in Deities and Demigods.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-01-03, 12:18 PM	One thing to note here, Yggdrasil doesn't touch every layer of every outer plane. It touches those planes within which a deity of the Norse pantheon resides within a domain. Like other planar pathways such as Oceanus, the Styx, and Mount Olympus it goes to a specific number of planes but not all of them. Yggdrasil isn't Sigil in other words. :) And even to those planes the World Ash reaches, it doesn't touch every single layer therein. For a single example, Yggdrasil reaches its branches into Elysium, but it doesn't reach into the 3rd layer, Belerian. That layer is largely sealed, and those portals that lead into the layer only go in and never out. While easy to enter by powerful spells, they fail on attempting to exit the layer and only transit by Oceanus allows a blood to exit the layer. The reason is singular and very very dark.
Addi83 10-01-03, 12:22 PM	You´re right about the names of course, I just didn´t see the need to go into that much trivia. Jormungandur recides in the outer sea, as I said, encircling Miðgarð (the mortal realm). Also, I think the creature gnawing at the roots of Askur Yggdrasill is not the worlds serpent. But then, I could be wrong, I read a book on this in high school, but I don´t remember all the details. Also, these descriptions often come from old icelandic poems which can be interpreted in a number of ways. I´m not sure I´m remembering all the details correctly, but heres a nice story of an encounter between Thor and Jormungandur: Once, Thor took on the guise of a young teen, and went to a giant who was a fisherman by the outer sea. He asked the giant if he could fish with him, which the giant thought was funny, but agreed. Then Thor rows the giants small bout extremely fast, and extremele far, ignoring the giants warnings that it´s dangerous. When Thor had gone out far enough he used a big anchor as a hook, and the head of a whale as bait. It wasn´t long before something took the bait and pulled the boat down, but Thor pushed against the ocean floor with his legs and started reeling it in, when it comes out of the water, revealing it to be Jormungandur. This scares the giant out of his wits, so he distracts Thor just as he is about to overcome the beast. So Jormungandur gets away. Thor was so mad that he killed the giant (giantslaying was his main hobby, after all) and than plowed to shore on foot. Funny thing is, the Norse gods once made a mistake, they had Thor kill a builder who had been contracted to rebuild the walls of Asgard, after it was revealed that the builder was in fact a giant in disguise, and that Loki had promised him payment beyond what the Æsir (norse Gods) were willing to pay (namely, the sun, the moon, and Freya, the most beautiful goddess). Anyway killing someone, even a giant in disguise, after promising safety is a big sin in the norse mythology. So that was the Æsirs fall from grace, because even the gods aren´t immune to the universal laws of honor and fate. After the Gods were shown no to be totally honorable, it was clear that their reign would come to an end. Odin talks to an Oracle (Völva) who tells him about all this (even the details of Ragnarök) soon after the murder of the Giant builder. And most of the Gods exploits, including Odins trading of his eye for wisdom, were aimed at circumventing their own fate, which is impossible, even for the Gods. Some things they did even hastened their end, like when Heimdallur (the sentinel of the Gods) traded his hearing for wisdom (both got it from Ýmir, who possessed a well of wisdom, no kidding, an actual well). So when the giants along with Jormungandur, Loki, the Fenris Wolf, Surtur and a few other big names come marching over the Bridge to Asgard (Bifröst) whom Heimdall was supposed to be guarding, he didn´t see them, as he was turned the other way, and didn´t have any hearing. His original hearing, btw. could have heard anything, as you would expect from a sentinel of Asgard. Certainly he would have heard a marching army of evil. Anyway, sorry about the rant
JellyFishBrains 10-01-03, 03:20 PM	how do ypu guys know so much stuff
Mr. FIXIT 10-01-03, 03:24 PM	I believe that the dragon/worm gnawing at the roots of yggdrasil is Nidhug (it's name in danish). And that this is an evil different from the Jormungandr. But then again I could be wrong... Can anyone confirm?
Masakado 10-01-03, 03:34 PM	Originally posted by Mr. FIXIT I believe that the dragon/worm gnawing at the roots of yggdrasil is Nidhug (it's name in danish). And that this is an evil different from the Jormungandr. But then again I could be wrong... Can anyone confirm? You are indeed correct, sir. The dragon's name is Niddhogr, but it's also known as "The One Who Strikes With Hatred," or something to that effect. It has an army of snakes with it, & together they gnaw at the roots of the World Tree. If memory serves me, there is an eagle that lives in the branches of Yggdrasil which creates the wind. The World Tree is kept from falling because the eagle insults the dragon. The messages to the dragon are relayed by a squirrel named Ratatosk, who is clever enough to hurl the insults from a safe distance. The insults infuriate the dragon so much that he has to reply, & the roots of the World Tree grow back when Niddhogr's attention is distracted. Wow. I can't believe I still remember that High School stuff.
Mr. FIXIT 10-01-03, 03:49 PM	Memory serves us well sometimes (though it seems to serve me less frequently). I am glad I got Nidhug right (or Niddhogr if thats the more "correct" use of the name. The names of the Gods and creatures in the Norse Mythology have changed a bit in modern Danish). But there is not a Jormungandr/midgaardsorm in the Realms is there? Is this not what this thread is about? :confused:
Masakado 10-01-03, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Mr. FIXIT But there is not a Jormungandr/midgaardsorm in the Realms is there? Is this not what this thread is about? :confused: This thread was an inquiry into what the World Serpent was. It was properly identified as an inn, but then the discussion began to focus on the origin of the name of the inn, which led to the discussion of Jormungandr. whew I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a FR version of Jormungandr tucked away somwhere, as there are a lot of parallels between the Fenris Wolf, of Norse legend, and the FR Kezef, the Chaos Hound. Plenty of little bits are taken from here & there & tossed into good high fantasy.
Garen Thal 10-01-03, 04:36 PM	According to Powers & Pantheons, the World Serpent was the "embodiment of life, wisdom, magic, and patience," worshipped by the sauroid creator race in long-ago Toril. As the creator race fragmented, so too did the aspects of the World Serpent they worshipped, some becoming gods in their own right, others being aspects of deities foreign to the World Serpent masquerading as (or subsuming) those aspects as the centuries past. One such aspect of the World Serpent was Merrshaulk, patron of the yuan-ti. Merrshaulk was supplanted by Sseth, a yuan-ti who proclaimed himself the reincarnation of Merrshaulk, who as himself since been absorbed by Set (see Faiths and Pantheons and Races of Faerûn). Set is decidedly not an aspect of the World Serpent. Other aspects of the World Serpent, if these gods still existed in the Realms, would be Semuanya (lizardfolk) and Shekinester (nagas), as both the races they serve as patrons to are descended from the unnamed creator race. Across the sea in Maztica, Qotal the Feathered Dragon would absolutely be an aspect of the World Serpent, even if he does not admit or even recognize that fact; the World Serpent is a universal concept, and would certainly apply to continents other than Faerûn that contain the appropriate deities.
Masakado 10-01-03, 04:42 PM	Originally posted by Garen Thal Other aspects of the World Serpent, if these gods still existed in the Realms, would be Semuanya (lizardfolk) and Shekinester (nagas), as both the races they serve as patrons to are descended from the unnamed creator race. Across the sea in Maztica, Qotal the Feathered Dragon would absolutely be an aspect of the World Serpent, even if he does not admit or even recognize that fact; the World Serpent is a universal concept, and would certainly apply to continents other than Faerûn that contain the appropriate deities. Which means that we'll have to wait until the proposed scalyfolk sourcebook to get some clarification. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 10-01-03, 05:14 PM	Originally posted by Masakado You are indeed correct, sir. The dragon's name is Niddhogr, but it's also known as "The One Who Strikes With Hatred," or something to that effect. It has an army of snakes with it, & together they gnaw at the roots of the World Tree. If memory serves me, there is an eagle that lives in the branches of Yggdrasil which creates the wind. The World Tree is kept from falling because the eagle insults the dragon. The messages to the dragon are relayed by a squirrel named Ratatosk, who is clever enough to hurl the insults from a safe distance. And looking back at the Planescape Box set, Planes of Conflict, the base of Yggdrasil in Hades does indeed have a dragonic entity named Nidhogg (slightly different spelling there, but I think we can assume its the same creature). And whats more, the race of intelligent, squirrel-like beings who inhabit the branches of Yggdrasil are called none other than Ratatosk. chuckle They were cute little critters too. And good with butter and brown sugar. fiendish grin So I'm told.
Addi83 10-01-03, 07:34 PM	Actually, the original name is Níðhöggur(or maybe Níðhöggr), danish has changed a lot, and so has icelandic, but it is still a lot closer to the original nordic language than any other. What you saw probably came from a danish source. The name means "one who strikes with hate". "Níð" is the same word we use for bullying and other cases where a strong (or just a very clever or popular) person uses his superiority to abuse others. Could also be used to describe some types of racism. "Höggur" means someone who strikes or hits, but the word is old and not used at all anymore. I had to study this in school(I probably would even if I didn´t), but how do you guys know so much about it?
Amaranthine 11-13-03, 04:17 PM	While easy to enter by powerful spells, they fail on attempting to exit the layer and only transit by Oceanus allows a blood to exit the layer. The reason is singular and very very dark.Is that in Manual of the Planes or a 2nd edition product? I can't remember it in either event. Can you shed light on the reason?
Shemeska the Marauder 11-13-03, 06:08 PM	The MotP mentions rumors about that layer, ie. it is barely populated, there's occosional evil being found there, there may be something very powerful/very evil imprisoned there on the plane. The specifics are left dark for 3e however. The 2e Planescape 'Planes of Conflict' box set was a bit more helpful in detailing the specifics, namely that the guardinals, in one of their crusades into the lower planes had stumbled across a beast that they called The Mother of Serpents. Imagine the perfect hydra. A being to put Tiamat herself, the Queen of Chromatic Dragons to shame. The single orginal hydra to which all others are simply flawed, broken, shadows of itself. Terrible in aspect and awesome in power, and utterly evil. They felt the beast was too much to allow loose on the planes, for fear the fiends would use it as a tool of conquest or set it loose upon a prime. And they attacked it, and they paid for their folly in their own blood. They were slaughtered. Realizing that they couldn't kill the thing, they lured it back to Elysium and trapped it within the layer of Belarian and sealed the layer against divinations and transport magics. They left the only way out of the layer as physical transit along Oceanus, whose waters pained and repulsed the creature. And thus they kept it safe and isolated from the planes, forgotten except to themselves who have since kept watch over it from the fortress of Rubicon situated on an island in Oceanus, watching over Belarian. At once, their act of entrapping the beast is both a racial triumph for the Guardinals, and a shame of theirs festering away on the layer of Belarian slowly corrupting its surroundings as the beast wanders and rages in the millennia since its capture.