Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dutch206 05-18-06, 04:29 PM	This is a quote from page one of the City of Splendors Web Enhancement PDF: "You (the DM) need the D&D core rulebooks—the P l a y e r ’ s H a n d b o o k , the Dungeon Master’s Guide, and the M o n s t e r Manual—as well as City of Splendors: Waterdeep (CoS:W)—to utilize the material in this web enhancement. Environs of Waterdeep also draws on material from Champions of Ruin (CoR), Champions of Valor (CoV), Draconomicon (Drac), Epic Level Handbook (ELH), Fiend Folio (FF), FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting (FRCS), Lost Empires of Faerūn (LEoF), Monster Manual II (MM2), Monsters of Faerūn (MoF), Player’s Guide to Faerūn (PGtF), Power of Faerūn (PoF), Serpent Kingdoms (SK), The Fright at Tristor (TFaT), and Underdark (Und). Other parenthetical notes refer to the map key in this web enhancement or in City of Splendors: Waterdeep. The information presented here utilizes the D&D v.3.5 rules." If I count correctly, That's the three core rulebooks, City of Splendors, and FOURTEEN additional rulebooks! What am I, a millionaire?
BobROE 05-18-06, 06:38 PM	This is a quote from page one of the City of Splendors Web Enhancement PDF: "You (the DM) need the D&D core rulebooks—the P l a y e r ’ s H a n d b o o k , the Dungeon Master’s Guide, and the M o n s t e r Manual—as well as City of Splendors: Waterdeep (CoS:W)—to utilize the material in this web enhancement. Environs of Waterdeep also draws on material from Champions of Ruin (CoR), Champions of Valor (CoV), Draconomicon (Drac), Epic Level Handbook (ELH), Fiend Folio (FF), FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting (FRCS), Lost Empires of Faerūn (LEoF), Monster Manual II (MM2), Monsters of Faerūn (MoF), Player’s Guide to Faerūn (PGtF), Power of Faerūn (PoF), Serpent Kingdoms (SK), The Fright at Tristor (TFaT), and Underdark (Und). Other parenthetical notes refer to the map key in this web enhancement or in City of Splendors: Waterdeep. The information presented here utilizes the D&D v.3.5 rules." If I count correctly, That's the three core rulebooks, City of Splendors, and FOURTEEN additional rulebooks! What am I, a millionaire? "Need" might be two strong a word, probably should read "if you want to get full use out of this you'll need... ". It just means that those books are refered to, having them or not shouldn't really affect your use of the product.
Lord Karsus 05-18-06, 07:09 PM	-You are correct, when you say, "if you want to get full use out of this..." You don't need all of those supplements, but there is material from them within that Web Enhancement, and to fully understand what those things are, you'll need those supplements.
Old Sage 05-18-06, 08:43 PM	-You are correct, when you say, "if you want to get full use out of this..." You don't need all of those supplements, but there is material from them within that Web Enhancement, and to fully understand what those things are, you'll need those supplements.Indeed. However a lot of gaming groups get around that by having members of the group purchase individual books for use with the game -- making it easier on the DM's coin purse.
GothicDan 05-18-06, 08:48 PM	Man, you would have hated 2E....
Old Sage 05-18-06, 08:54 PM	Most certainly... though WotC made that situation a little easier by offering certain 2e FR resources for free legal downloads.
GothicDan 05-18-06, 09:25 PM	This is true! I just wish they would offer more. :)
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-06, 10:24 PM	I have been on both sides of this coin. My first group would each bring a few books. Part of what made it attractive was the more people the more possibilities. I have absolutly nothing against WoTC, but in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's it truly was a Collector's thing. There were also maybe 10% as many(probably closer to 5%) rule books. I don't have a problem with spending the $ for a book I truly want. I would pay an arm and a leg for a wraped copy of "The Will & the Way". My Moorecock signed Dieties and DemiGods is one of my most treasured posessions. I also greatly appreciate any free content located on this site and several others. These boards and publications have proved invaluble. I think of these Boards as part of the 3 groups I run. Any question I have can be answered by both players and the "Elders" as well. Just remember WoTC, the more free stuff, thye more people willing to try. The more the merrier... :pile:
Karsus the Mad 05-18-06, 11:24 PM	This is a quote from page one of the City of Splendors Web Enhancement PDF: ............. If I count correctly, That's the three core rulebooks, City of Splendors, and FOURTEEN additional rulebooks! What am I, a millionaire? It's even more funny when a sourcebook requires other sourcebooks to be used fully.
Lord Karsus 05-18-06, 11:34 PM	It's even more funny when a sourcebook requires other sourcebooks to be used fully. -At least they are keeping everything in 3e, and not telling you to refer to 2e sourcebooks...
TXCBoy36 05-19-06, 12:53 AM	Man, you would have hated 2E.... You have to be kidding me. What are you, a Grammar specialist. That was uncalled for. You could have easily not responded, rather than being rude about it. People like you really annoy me to no end. This is a free forum and we have the right to use our grammar any way we see fit, as long as we follow the guide lines set by WoTC. Do me a favor, go find a cause and annoy them with your pet peaves. VERY ANNOYED!! :mad:
Old Sage 05-19-06, 01:27 AM	What was rude about it? GD was merely referring to the fact that the vast amount of 2e resources needed to play in the 1e/2e Realms would've likely given the OP a headache when compared to the smaller amount of 3e FR resources now available.
BrianCritchley 05-19-06, 02:36 AM	the thing is while it may seem out of hand it's really fine and dandy. the thing is that why SHOULDN'T WOTC build on whats come before? should they really waste have a book statting out something for the zillionth time? the thing is that this kinda thing does two things.. 1: it builds on stuff before so that those who bought the book are happy ("well whadda know my money was well spent!") 2: it enchorages us to buy the other sourcebooks. which is, bluntly put, good marketing on WOTC's point. I mean WOTC does want us to buy as many of their books as we can. and GD'sd right to state that compared to 2E the newer 3.5 SBs don't have huge requirements. still the fact is that Forgotten realms isn't just a sourcebook, it's world building, to do it properly one must build on whats come before.
Karsus the Mad 05-19-06, 03:24 AM	-At least they are keeping everything in 3e, and not telling you to refer to 2e sourcebooks... True. I meant mechanics tho':) 2: it enchorages us to buy the other sourcebooks. which is, bluntly put, good marketing on WOTC's point. I simply don't buy the book that requires a dozen additional books, unless of course I already have those :D My biggest problem, and it's not really a problem, is when the mechanics of a book require the mechanics of another sourcebook (such as feat prerequisites) I don't have. It'd be nice to be able to use the Spell Mantle feat without having to buy Unaproachable East just to see what Craft Contingent Spell is in order to understand how Spell Mantle works, mechanically speaking.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-19-06, 07:36 AM	the thing is while it may seem out of hand it's really fine and dandy. the thing is that why SHOULDN'T WOTC build on whats come before? should they really waste have a book statting out something for the zillionth time? the thing is that this kinda thing does two things.. 1: it builds on stuff before so that those who bought the book are happy ("well whadda know my money was well spent!") 2: it enchorages us to buy the other sourcebooks. which is, bluntly put, good marketing on WOTC's point. I mean WOTC does want us to buy as many of their books as we can. and GD'sd right to state that compared to 2E the newer 3.5 SBs don't have huge requirements. still the fact is that Forgotten realms isn't just a sourcebook, it's world building, to do it properly one must build on whats come before. Amen. One of the worst design decisions in 3e was to essentially write books in a vacuum, forcing designers to restrict themselves whenever possible, even to the point of ludicracy, to the 'core' books. Thus you have things like the Planar Handbook which didn't reference modrons when talking about locations in Mechanus the Modrons created, because they weren't 'core' since they were in the MotP but heavens no they weren't in the MM so gosh you just couldn't talk about them. :rolleyes: You have books prior to recently that rather than simply referencing linked or associated books, either omit or ignore relevant material, or wholly duplicate chunks of it. I'm -much- happier by the willingness on WotCs part to just have books reference one another on matters of lore rather than ignoring or duplicating such things.
Lord Karsus 05-19-06, 09:25 AM	VERY ANNOYED!! :mad: -Right...I don't know what Dan said, but it was certainly no cause for any outrage. Now, play nice, or I will have to start smiting people...
Karsus the Mad 05-19-06, 09:38 AM	-Right...I don't know what Dan said, but it was certainly no cause for any outrage. Now, play nice, or I will have to start smiting people... Thinking about getting back into old habbits, eh? Remember the therapy sessions we had to go through because of your smiting.
BrennonGoldeye 05-19-06, 10:27 AM	Karsus, if you don't stop responding to yourself people will never understand what it means to be a vestige...or maybe they will.... :confused:
dutch206 05-19-06, 10:39 AM	It'd be nice to be able to use the Spell Mantle feat without having to buy Unaproachable East just to see what Craft Contingent Spell is in order to understand how Spell Mantle works, mechanically speaking. This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. How annoying is that? You get into a really interesting part of the rules and get stopped by "Please see Unapproacable East". If I plan on running a campaign out of Waterdeep, why make me buy a book detailing a location thousands of miles away for a few feats, some spells, and a monster or two?
Old Sage 05-19-06, 11:09 AM	-Right...I don't know what Dan said, but it was certainly no cause for any outrage. Now, play nice, or I will have to start smiting people...All he said was in his original reply... here:- http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9192008&postcount=5
Karsus the Mad 05-19-06, 11:39 AM	Karsus, if you don't stop responding to yourself people will never understand what it means to be a vestige...or maybe they will.... :confused: That's the joy of having "stark raving mad" as part of the background in our writeup. I can talk to ourself and have really interesting conversations. But the best thing is that I can say "I can talk to ourself" or "We can talk to myself" and it's perfectly ok. :D It's just a great bonus of the job:) This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. How annoying is that? You get into a really interesting part of the rules and get stopped by "Please see Unapproacable East". If I plan on running a campaign out of Waterdeep, why make me buy a book detailing a location thousands of miles away for a few feats, some spells, and a monster or two? It is indeed annoying. I haven't bought a sourcebook since LEoF (I do now have UE and SK, but those were gifts I got recently), so I've no clue how wide spread such a thing is. I hope it's rare at least.
BrennonGoldeye 05-19-06, 12:21 PM	That's the joy of having "stark raving mad" as part of the background in our writeup. I can talk to ourself and have really interesting conversations. But the best thing is that I can say "I can talk to ourself" or "We can talk to myself" and it's perfectly ok. :D It's just a great bonus of the job:) These thing are true but I have enough problems listening to all the other voices in my head with "Thou" taking up three slots..... :P
Lord Karsus 05-19-06, 12:34 PM	Thinking about getting back into old habbits, eh? Remember the therapy sessions we had to go through because of your smiting. -Yeah, I know. I need to compose myself. I don't want all of that therapy to be for nothing. All he said was in his original reply... here:- http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9192008&postcount=5 -Ermmm...I meant it in a different way, but hey, I didn't know you could make a link to a single, individual post. Thanks for that, Sage. But, obviously, I read Dan's post.
Old Sparky 05-19-06, 02:14 PM	Personally, considering what the original poster was referring to, I have no problems with WotC saying you need and referring to every 3.x FR product available if they wanted to and was actually relevant to the WE, [/i]to use this web enhancement.[/i] The thing of it is, the web enhancement is a free resource for WotC's customers. They're assuming you bought some FR books... why criticize them for giving free material to those who paid for stuff just because the free material offered doesn't benefit everyone who didn't buy stuff? Sure, its nice when they give out free things usable by everyone... but I don't at all have a problem with them giving out free material that builds on existing sourcebooks and requires those sourcebooks to get the most out of it.
DreamStalker 05-19-06, 02:35 PM	Notice also that it said you only need the core books FRCS and Waterdeep for the Waterdeep WE. Makes sense to me! The others are just to know what everything mentioned is. You can perfectly enjoy the WE just fine without those books. Come across anything that is not from the needed books just replace it with something else. I would rather the books link together and reference each other. Contingent spells are printed in two books that I know of. I do not need them reprinted again in a third book just to enjoy a small blurb and new feat. I like building off. Makes those of us who do spend the money feel like we are actually getting our money's worth. Just how Power of Faerun did not reprint the Business, Guild, or Battle rules from the multitude of books those are from. Instead they printed new material and expanded upon those systems.
Wyre 05-19-06, 03:39 PM	What you need to play D&D, any edition.... 1 D.M.G., 1 P.H.B., 1M.M., at least 1 set of dice, a few friends, and alot of imagination. The rest is just dressing. You can create your own N.P.C's., towns, classes, feats, etc. Just get the basics and ignore all the other crap they put out. It's not needed to play the game.
GothicDan 05-20-06, 01:27 AM	I fear that Tex may have mistaken my signature for a post directed at the OP, specifically. As to me being a grammar specialist? I am somewhat of a professional editor, so I think I'll leave it at that. But note that my SIGNATURE is to the boards in general. As you said, it's a free, public forum, so I have every right to write what I want... Though I reiterate that it was my SIGNATURE you read, NOT a reply to the post. I'm really too amused by this to be angry. I'll just laugh.
Zanan 05-20-06, 04:50 AM	GD, that last sentence of yours was not exactly needed, was it? Anyway, can't remember any FR adventure which had such a list as given above in its requirements. Maybe some campaign, but not even the Planescaping For Duty & Deity required that amount. Anyway, as has been said, most info used from these books are only NPC / equipment abilities (feats, PrC, classes / enhancements), monsters, and the like. Nothing which makes a book or WE impossible to work. More often than not, at least the monsters get some sort of substitution table, in case people do not have access to all books. So far, I had no trouble running one of these despite not having all sourcebooks. Then again, some of the more exotic books need no inclusion unless it is in dire need. (e.g., something about Anauroch could well feature notes from Sandstorm, yet a book about Cormanthor need not)
dutch206 05-20-06, 09:35 AM	On the other hand, you have books like the "Spell Compendium" which, IMHO, was worth its weight in gold. It gathered spells from all those various nooks and crannies of the game universe and put them in one spot. Now, in order to run a spell caster all you need is the PHB and the Spell Compendium. No more "Which book was that in again?" That's the kind of thing I'd like to see more of.
WizO_Shadow 05-20-06, 10:46 AM	I'm going to say this once and only once. Do not make negative personalized offensive posts and get back onto the topic of the thread. WizO_Shadow
GothicDan 05-20-06, 02:29 PM	GD, that last sentence of yours was not exactly needed, was it? It said nothing negative about any of the posters. I was really too amused to be angry - I was laughing. Hence, I was saying that my post was made in incredulity and amusement, and not anger, to debunk any thoughts that my words were made venemous. Now, get off my back, Spider Girl. ;)
BrianCritchley 05-20-06, 06:54 PM	anyway getting back on topic here, the thing is that WOTC will occasionally referance past bits of material.as someone who likes new stuff I rather like that. yes I know it annoys some people who don't buy ALL the WOTC D&D books, but as a player who buys pretty much all of it (only stuff I don't buy is the ebberon campaign setting stuff,campaign specific stuff should be reprinted if referanced elsewhere. it's fair to tell me to referance a FR book for a feat but proably silly to tell me to referance the ebberon campaign setting ;) it's nice to have the pages freed up for non-reprinted stuff. it may annoy those who don't buy all the stuff yes. but assuming everything else is equal whose opinion is WOTC more likely to care about, the guy who buys all their stuff, or the guy who cherry picks? simple busniess sense would imply they'd favor the one who gives em more money.
Lenora 05-26-06, 10:24 PM	It's simple economics: supply and demand. WE as a whole demand these sourcebooks, WotC is more than happy to supply. Individually it is up to each of us to weigh the cost/benifit. For me I read these sourcebooks, I am able to gain a fuller understanding of the world in which i set my campaign, this in turn makes my campaign more interactive. If WotC also produce additional info for my players to use so they are more than Fighter #4, Wizard #7 etc then all the better. I like my players to be able to use feats and spells etc that suit their character. If your like me that see's the release of sourcebooks as an opportunity to advance your game then you'd not worry about what info is presented in other books but enjoy the info that is presented. In short, enjoy the sourcebooks for what you can get out of them.
fw190a8 05-31-06, 09:38 AM	My biggest problem, and it's not really a problem, is when the mechanics of a book require the mechanics of another sourcebook (such as feat prerequisites) I don't have. It'd be nice to be able to use the Spell Mantle feat without having to buy Unaproachable East just to see what Craft Contingent Spell is in order to understand how Spell Mantle works, mechanically speaking. In this kind of situation, which I believe to be quite rare, what is the opinion about the possibility of WotC releasing a web enhancement / web page / download containing just the required bits? In Karsus's example, there would be a WE containing a description of Craft Contingent so that anyone would be able to use the Spell Mantle feat without owning Unapproachable East. It means that people who don't already have the 'required' book needn't buy it to gain a few stats The element wouldn't be contained in both books, so those who bought both wouldn't have duplicate stats It might not affect sales of the books - the only potential sales lost are people who specifically bought the Unapproachable East just for that one detail about Spell Mantle Not every feat, monster or spell from the book is put up for free download, just the tiny amount that are required by other books I'll reiterate that this would only be for things in one sourcebook that require things in another, not for things that suggest other things to enhance enjoyment.
TomCosta 05-31-06, 11:05 AM	Getting back to the original message.... I believe the policy is to try and limit the use of other books in printed, paid-for materials, but not necessarily to do so in web enhancements. If anything, as a free product, the web enhancement is nothing but gravy and allows designers to spread their wings a bit more freely. That said, almost all (or perhaps all) of the other non-required books mentioned are because the CoS WE references a specific magic item or monster in one of those sources or perhaps a spell or prestige class, all of which are easily worked around with a similar item, monster, spell, or whatever. Consequently, I think you'll find more references to non-core products in WE, at least references without having a replacement table (as is often included in hardcover books for monsters).
BrianCritchley 05-31-06, 11:26 PM	actually most new products have stuff from previous WOTC books in em. as I said this is fair. it enablews a much richer universe and they useally provide options for players witout said book.