Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 09-06-06, 10:09 PM	Can someone tell me why Tieflings get a -2 to Cha? Aasimars (ECL1) have a +4 total Ability score modifier (+2 Wis +2 Cha) Tieflings (ECL1) Have a +2 total Ability score modifier (+2 DEX +2 Int -2 Cha) Aasimars (ECL1) Get a 3rd level spell once perday (Daylight) Tieflings (ECL1) Get a 2nd level spell Both Aasimars and Tieflings get a +2 to 2 skills and Resistence to 3 types of energy Tieflings are worse off on spells and ability score bonus and yet they end up with the same Level Adjustment as Aasimars
Dark Wizard 09-06-06, 11:19 PM	I couldn't say. Though Tieflings do have the cooler descendants of evil background, leads to more roleplaying options, often harder more interesting choices. You get interesting scenarios like this: Balor: I am your grandfather! Good Tiefling: Nooo!!! OR Balor: My dark blood flows through your weak mortal veins! Bad Tiefling: Yes, one step closer to utter evilness. Mwahahaha! Versus - Solar: I am the progenitor of your lineage. Good Aasimar: That's interesting. OR Solar: Stand and be judged my tainted scion. Bad Aasimar: ~I magic missile the light!~
Alac Luin 09-06-06, 11:59 PM	It sort of a balance thing. In the tradition of D&D +2 DEX +2 Int is worth more then +2 Wis +2 Cha. Charisma is mostly seen as a dump stat for many, unless you play a sorc or somethig similar. +2 dex = +1 to AC for every combat encounter for charicters of any class and relx saves +2 int = more skill points every level, helps a wizard, number of languages. Vs +2 Wis = wil save, used in only a fraction of encounters (compair to ref saves), nice for clerics, has use for monk. +2 Cha = only benifits sorc and bard signicantly and only hampers others when you roll the role playing (many DMs don't do this that often)
Dargoth 09-07-06, 01:33 AM	It sort of a balance thing. In the tradition of D&D +2 DEX +2 Int is worth more then +2 Wis +2 Cha. Charisma is mostly seen as a dump stat for many, unless you play a sorc or somethig similar. +2 dex = +1 to AC for every combat encounter for charicters of any class and relx saves +2 int = more skill points every level, helps a wizard, number of languages. Vs +2 Wis = wil save, used in only a fraction of encounters (compair to ref saves), nice for clerics, has use for monk. +2 Cha = only benifits sorc and bard signicantly and only hampers others when you roll the role playing (many DMs don't do this that often) The bonus are aimed at the planetouched favoured class (Paladin & Rogue) A +2 Wis/Cha is just as useful to Aasimar Paladin as a +2 Int/Dex is to a Teifling Rogue. Charisma is not a dump stat for a Paladin as it powers Turning, LAy on hands and Divine health Im thinking of house ruling Tieflings and dropping the Int bonus and making them +2 Dex +2 Cha and changing the Favoured class to Warlock
Alac Luin 09-07-06, 02:29 AM	My main point earlier (though looking back I really messed it up) was that some stats are higher in importance (across the board all classes). the tieflings +2 DEX +2 Int is worth more (across the board) then the +2 Wis +2 Cha. A penalty in cha for the tiefling "evened the field" The changes you are suggesting feel logical to me. I don't know the warlock class, except by vague rumors and believe it would actually fit. Just wondering, does anyone have the 2ed stat adjustments for tieflings? as in are they the same as now. 2ed had a different stance on cha, and in my opinion a cha bonus would almost be appropriate for them in 2ed, theme wise.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-07-06, 02:42 AM	Just wondering, does anyone have the 2ed stat adjustments for tieflings? as in are they the same as now. 2ed had a different stance on cha, and in my opinion a cha bonus would almost be appropriate for them in 2ed, theme wise. Tieflings: +1 int, +1 cha, -1 str, -1 wis. Darkness 1/day. 60 ft infravision. 1/2 damage from cold, +2 saves against fire/electricity/poison. * There was also the massive table of variable tieflin traits in the Planewalker's Handbook which allowed for some massive differences between tieflings due to their wide range of potential bloodlines, and the fickle nature in which that blood might manifest itself generations down the line. Aasimar: +1 Str, +1 Wis, -2 Con, 60ft infravision, +1 to surprise checks, 1/2 damage from normal heat and cold, +2 saves against fear/charm/emotion/domination, 10% magic resistance for non-wizards.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-07-06, 02:45 AM	Admittedly, I've never as a player chosen Aasimar or Tiefling as a PC race based on the stats, I'll choose them purely for the appearance and the RP potential, regardless of how good or bad the stat adjustments might be. I'll also allow my players to potentially alter the traits and entirely customize the appearance of the PC based on the contributions of specific fiends or celestials lurking in their blood.
Dargoth 09-07-06, 03:01 AM	Warlocks basicly come across as being who throw "Evil energy" around and there write up in Complete Arcane ties the class fairly heavily to those who have ancestors who had dealing with evil outsiders
Dargoth 09-07-06, 03:04 AM	Warlocks basicly come across as being who throw "Evil energy" around and there write up in Complete Arcane ties the class fairly heavily to those who have ancestors who had dealing with evil outsiders One the ideas Im kicking around for a villian is a Half (Hellfire Wyrm) Dragon Human Warlock
Besshalar 09-07-06, 04:47 AM	If I remember correctly the ingame explanation for the -2 charisma was their "unnerving" aura which made people shun them. It seems it was thought that their fiendish heritage could be sensed by those around them.
BrianCritchley 09-07-06, 05:01 AM	as has been noted, +2dex and +2 int are substantially better then cha and wis, heck dex and int are proab ly for all but fighters, the most IMPORTANT attributes of the game (fighters get more from str then a high int)
Dargoth 09-07-06, 05:19 AM	If I remember correctly the ingame explanation for the -2 charisma was their "unnerving" aura which made people shun them. It seems it was thought that their fiendish heritage could be sensed by those around them. The problem with that arguement is that Half Fiends have a +2 bonus to Charisma and they have a far more unnerving fiend features then Tieflings
Alac Luin 09-07-06, 11:32 AM	Judgeing from the 2ed stats Shemmy was kind enough to provide, they didn't keep to them. And the ingame explination is nice, but really substandard considering what CHA is in 3.X. That "unnerving aura" can also be a valid explination to explain a +2 CHA bonus, half the CHA based skill checks should be boosted by such an unnerving aura. So, it really looks it was pure and simple mechanical reasons.
GothicDan 09-07-06, 02:27 PM	And the terrible ambiguity of Charisma rears its ugly head again. ;)
Dark Wizard 09-07-06, 03:12 PM	Drow get a +2 to Charisma, and no one likes drow, maybe except spiders, eww.
GothicDan 09-07-06, 04:22 PM	It's because they're still graceful and beautiful and confident? Oh, wait, so are all of the other Elves... (Hating Charisma.)
Dark Wizard 09-07-06, 04:52 PM	I'm not against the stat itself or even what it tries to represent, but the designers don't seem to be on the same page when it comes to what Charisma is.
GothicDan 09-07-06, 06:00 PM	So, it's kind of hard to figure out what it represents when we're getting a bunch of different 'canon' interpretations of it, eh? That works wonderfully for lore and history and viewpoint stories. But not so much for a game system.
Dargoth 09-07-06, 07:12 PM	What I was originally thinking of doing was dumping -2 to Cha and replacing it with a -4 penalty to skill checks that use Charisma (like Diplomacy)