Tinkering with CotSQ...[Long. Very long.] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tinkering with CotSQ...[Long. Very long.] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArrDee
08-16-04, 04:16 AM As the title says, I'm tinkering with some encounters in City of the Spider Queen, which I'll get to in a second. A little history is in order before I get into what I'm toying with.

About a year ago, my group started to run City of the Spider Queen. None of us was overly familiar with the Realms and we were used to lower level games, with CotSQ being the highest level we'd attempted. And, to top it off, we were 3.25 as 3.5 had come out just two weeks earlier. Long story short, we got TPK'd first session by Chahir due to mistakes by both ourselves; the drow not faerie firing Chahir at the beginning, not equipping for undead busting, and not having a single non-level adjusted member of the party and the DM, who occasionally forgot about spell resistence and that half of the party were Outsiders and immune to domination.

This incident has since become the brunt of many jokes within our group and passed into common lore, which brings us to why I'm tinkering with some of the encounters: it's absolutely impossible to run the first encounter of the game with my group, simply because we all know that Chahir is in there and we're, by and large, not strong enough to avoid metagaming an encounter with Chahir.

So, now we're going to try CotSQ again, and this time we've got a different DM(yours truly). I'm, as stated, looking for a way to drop Chahir, though I'd like to do it without overtly tinkering with the intro to the adventure. I'd also like to throw my group a few doses of nostalgia, given that we've tried running the adventure before.

So, here's what I was planning. Our last game featured a pair of female drow twins: one a Divine Champ of Eilistraee, the other a cleric of her. They were also the last fall to Chahir(the Champ was dominated, the cleric lay dying when it ended). For the sake of plot purposes, Chahir opts to keep Sister Dearest alive to feast upon later. He eventually does feed upon one of them, who rises as a vampire and, given that she has more than five hit die and Chahir's full up with spawn, has free will. Whichever one was feasted upon kills Chahir and the spawn(who were the old party) and then feasts on her sister and frees her after she rises. So now we've ot a pair of ****** undead drow, which are perfect fodder for Kiaransalee.

So here's where more tinkering kicks in: given the balor's CR rating change at near the Undying Temple from 18 to 20, I'm looking for something to sub in for it, for which the two properly advanced drow should cover(each with 15 PC character levels makes each CR 16 and the two of them together make CR 18). Make the encounter mandatory just for flavor.

So that leaves Chahir's crypt vacant. I'm looking for a CR11 thing to fill, which a 15th level cleric would have access to. At the moment, I'm considering either a hezrou(which, tactically, can function much like Chahir) or a young adult shadow dragon(whose services could be bought with the loot from half of a 10th level character party). The reason anyone would bother being in there? To guard the twins "collection", the severed heads of the former party, as well as Chahir and his two original spawn. Yes, that's more chaotic insane than chaotic evil, but it fits.

There'd also be some additions for the perceptive or inquisitve: the plastering on the door is quick and shoddy, "was here..." is scribbled in Undercommon under CHAHIR, etcetera. You get the idea.

So, good ideas to better integrate our group's past experiences into the adventure or am I just asking for trouble?
warlockco
08-16-04, 05:12 AM You mean to tell me the Cleric of Eilistraee was a 15th level Cleric when the party got TPKed? What did she do? Unless she has no charisma (being a drow not likely) or just rolled poorly, that Vampire should have been fleeing from her.
And the Divine Champ of Eilistraee got dominated? when she has a +4 bonus on top of anything else she has to resist that. I hope it was a poor roll.

But yeah a Hezrou, would be a good encounter to start things off with. Also could have the twins show up and harass the party (you have their full stats to use right?), just a hit and run, then vanish.

One thing to keep in mind is that the major tactic of the game, Haste to get more spells off doesn't work with 3.5 rules. So the bad guys will be to be smarter to compensate. Also use the resources of Irae's followers, the module says Irae will only send so many things to fight the party, but nothing says the spellcasters that serve her can't use their spells to do the same thing. So the party can be constantly assaulted by demons or other monsters that can instantly transport themselves there (provided Faerzress doesn't interfer).

Also depending on the powerlevel of the party by the time they get to where the Balor is, might want to keep the Balor. Personally I would use a Marilith with a level of Blackguard. Mariliths are so much more effective for hurting a party than a Balor when it comes to using their spell-like abilities.
Blade Barrier and Project Image at will are nasty.
Another one to use is a Glabrezu with 5 levels of Blackguard, Unholy Blight and Chaos Hammer at will.

Yes, I will maul my players, but they get nice rewards to compensate for their pain and suffering.
The Players in my campaigns are the Heroes, even if they are evil (as one game is), but things aren't going to be easy for them.

If you want to bounce back and forth in PMs, send me a PM.
I'm in the process of converting CotSQ over to 3.5 myself but still a long ways to go, since right now I'm converting Under Illefarn to 3.5 from 1E. And making the part that I'm using completely different since the party is an evil group of Drow from Menzoberrazan. They will be a 4th faction in the mix in the Dwarfhold. Orcs, Dwarves, Drow, and an Undead faction :angel:
ClobberinTime
08-16-04, 10:14 AM Watch out for the Herzous blasphemy ability, that will hurt...
warlockco
08-16-04, 10:43 AM Yep that it does, but as nasty as that can be, I actually fear a slightly lower level spell a bit more, Unholy Blight, since that actually does damage, while Blasphemy really only works if you have more caster level then your targets have HD.

A good tactic for a Hezrou to do is Blasphemy to weaken the party then follow up with Chaos Hammers and Unholy Blights.
ArrDee
08-16-04, 04:25 PM No, the twins were originally of standard starting level for CotSQ: I was planning on advancing them, given that I wasn't aware that undead couldn't gain additional HD. Alternately, by the time they'd be a threat, the Book of the Dead will be out and will provide me with more than enough cheese to make them a viable challenge later in the game(using the Draconomicon as a precedent of spikes in lethality).

And the Divine Champ, who had been character, missed her domination save by one. It was quite the pisser. But hey, you live and you learn. The lesson? Faerie fire is your friend.

I know about Haste's effects changing. I was considering either using something like DM's Haste in its place with a Battletide-like effect with regards to spellcasting or simply using Battletide instead entirely. Either way, they will most certainly have to be played smarter to compensate, as Battletide isn't quite the replacement for Haste's old extra spellcasting. But, given that I've been accused more than once of being an evil DM and having frightened several fellow DMs with my ability to make relatively mundane fights hellish for PCs, methinks I can do that.

And the hezrou is probably a better opening for several reasons, if only for logic's sake. I was grinding my teeth as to how, exactly, to get a shadow dragon into a sealed crypt without it reeking of DM deus ex machina. And it does do much of what Chahir would do, given that it can assume a gaseous form and its spell-like abilities are nasty.
warlockco
08-17-04, 12:54 AM One's level advancement does not freeze when you become undead. You still advance in levels as normal.
A Drow Vampire is a +10 ECL being though, or +3 CR.
And you know what is really evil since it has a +10 ECL as soon as the Drow Vampire gains its 11th HD it qualifies for Epic Feats, since you can start acquiring Epic Feats as soon as your ECL hits 21. :smirk: :angel:
Mumm-Ra
08-19-04, 06:43 AM No, the twins were originally of standard starting level for CotSQ: I was planning on advancing them, given that I wasn't aware that undead couldn't gain additional HD.

whatever gave you that idea? Undead can advance like any other character.
ArrDee
08-19-04, 10:00 AM Originally posted by Mumm-Ra
whatever gave you that idea? Undead can advance like any other character.

The way Warlack phrased his question; I had been under the impression undead could advance as normal characters and the phrasiology of his statement caught me off guard, hence why I said what I said.
warlockco
08-19-04, 02:04 PM Ah, sorry about that, just was trying to figure out where 5 levels of cleric came from was all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArrDee 08-16-04, 04:16 AM	As the title says, I'm tinkering with some encounters in City of the Spider Queen, which I'll get to in a second. A little history is in order before I get into what I'm toying with. About a year ago, my group started to run City of the Spider Queen. None of us was overly familiar with the Realms and we were used to lower level games, with CotSQ being the highest level we'd attempted. And, to top it off, we were 3.25 as 3.5 had come out just two weeks earlier. Long story short, we got TPK'd first session by Chahir due to mistakes by both ourselves; the drow not faerie firing Chahir at the beginning, not equipping for undead busting, and not having a single non-level adjusted member of the party and the DM, who occasionally forgot about spell resistence and that half of the party were Outsiders and immune to domination. This incident has since become the brunt of many jokes within our group and passed into common lore, which brings us to why I'm tinkering with some of the encounters: it's absolutely impossible to run the first encounter of the game with my group, simply because we all know that Chahir is in there and we're, by and large, not strong enough to avoid metagaming an encounter with Chahir. So, now we're going to try CotSQ again, and this time we've got a different DM(yours truly). I'm, as stated, looking for a way to drop Chahir, though I'd like to do it without overtly tinkering with the intro to the adventure. I'd also like to throw my group a few doses of nostalgia, given that we've tried running the adventure before. So, here's what I was planning. Our last game featured a pair of female drow twins: one a Divine Champ of Eilistraee, the other a cleric of her. They were also the last fall to Chahir(the Champ was dominated, the cleric lay dying when it ended). For the sake of plot purposes, Chahir opts to keep Sister Dearest alive to feast upon later. He eventually does feed upon one of them, who rises as a vampire and, given that she has more than five hit die and Chahir's full up with spawn, has free will. Whichever one was feasted upon kills Chahir and the spawn(who were the old party) and then feasts on her sister and frees her after she rises. So now we've ot a pair of ****** undead drow, which are perfect fodder for Kiaransalee. So here's where more tinkering kicks in: given the balor's CR rating change at near the Undying Temple from 18 to 20, I'm looking for something to sub in for it, for which the two properly advanced drow should cover(each with 15 PC character levels makes each CR 16 and the two of them together make CR 18). Make the encounter mandatory just for flavor. So that leaves Chahir's crypt vacant. I'm looking for a CR11 thing to fill, which a 15th level cleric would have access to. At the moment, I'm considering either a hezrou(which, tactically, can function much like Chahir) or a young adult shadow dragon(whose services could be bought with the loot from half of a 10th level character party). The reason anyone would bother being in there? To guard the twins "collection", the severed heads of the former party, as well as Chahir and his two original spawn. Yes, that's more chaotic insane than chaotic evil, but it fits. There'd also be some additions for the perceptive or inquisitve: the plastering on the door is quick and shoddy, "was here..." is scribbled in Undercommon under CHAHIR, etcetera. You get the idea. So, good ideas to better integrate our group's past experiences into the adventure or am I just asking for trouble?
warlockco 08-16-04, 05:12 AM	You mean to tell me the Cleric of Eilistraee was a 15th level Cleric when the party got TPKed? What did she do? Unless she has no charisma (being a drow not likely) or just rolled poorly, that Vampire should have been fleeing from her. And the Divine Champ of Eilistraee got dominated? when she has a +4 bonus on top of anything else she has to resist that. I hope it was a poor roll. But yeah a Hezrou, would be a good encounter to start things off with. Also could have the twins show up and harass the party (you have their full stats to use right?), just a hit and run, then vanish. One thing to keep in mind is that the major tactic of the game, Haste to get more spells off doesn't work with 3.5 rules. So the bad guys will be to be smarter to compensate. Also use the resources of Irae's followers, the module says Irae will only send so many things to fight the party, but nothing says the spellcasters that serve her can't use their spells to do the same thing. So the party can be constantly assaulted by demons or other monsters that can instantly transport themselves there (provided Faerzress doesn't interfer). Also depending on the powerlevel of the party by the time they get to where the Balor is, might want to keep the Balor. Personally I would use a Marilith with a level of Blackguard. Mariliths are so much more effective for hurting a party than a Balor when it comes to using their spell-like abilities. Blade Barrier and Project Image at will are nasty. Another one to use is a Glabrezu with 5 levels of Blackguard, Unholy Blight and Chaos Hammer at will. Yes, I will maul my players, but they get nice rewards to compensate for their pain and suffering. The Players in my campaigns are the Heroes, even if they are evil (as one game is), but things aren't going to be easy for them. If you want to bounce back and forth in PMs, send me a PM. I'm in the process of converting CotSQ over to 3.5 myself but still a long ways to go, since right now I'm converting Under Illefarn to 3.5 from 1E. And making the part that I'm using completely different since the party is an evil group of Drow from Menzoberrazan. They will be a 4th faction in the mix in the Dwarfhold. Orcs, Dwarves, Drow, and an Undead faction :angel:
ClobberinTime 08-16-04, 10:14 AM	Watch out for the Herzous blasphemy ability, that will hurt...
warlockco 08-16-04, 10:43 AM	Yep that it does, but as nasty as that can be, I actually fear a slightly lower level spell a bit more, Unholy Blight, since that actually does damage, while Blasphemy really only works if you have more caster level then your targets have HD. A good tactic for a Hezrou to do is Blasphemy to weaken the party then follow up with Chaos Hammers and Unholy Blights.
ArrDee 08-16-04, 04:25 PM	No, the twins were originally of standard starting level for CotSQ: I was planning on advancing them, given that I wasn't aware that undead couldn't gain additional HD. Alternately, by the time they'd be a threat, the Book of the Dead will be out and will provide me with more than enough cheese to make them a viable challenge later in the game(using the Draconomicon as a precedent of spikes in lethality). And the Divine Champ, who had been character, missed her domination save by one. It was quite the pisser. But hey, you live and you learn. The lesson? Faerie fire is your friend. I know about Haste's effects changing. I was considering either using something like DM's Haste in its place with a Battletide-like effect with regards to spellcasting or simply using Battletide instead entirely. Either way, they will most certainly have to be played smarter to compensate, as Battletide isn't quite the replacement for Haste's old extra spellcasting. But, given that I've been accused more than once of being an evil DM and having frightened several fellow DMs with my ability to make relatively mundane fights hellish for PCs, methinks I can do that. And the hezrou is probably a better opening for several reasons, if only for logic's sake. I was grinding my teeth as to how, exactly, to get a shadow dragon into a sealed crypt without it reeking of DM deus ex machina. And it does do much of what Chahir would do, given that it can assume a gaseous form and its spell-like abilities are nasty.
warlockco 08-17-04, 12:54 AM	One's level advancement does not freeze when you become undead. You still advance in levels as normal. A Drow Vampire is a +10 ECL being though, or +3 CR. And you know what is really evil since it has a +10 ECL as soon as the Drow Vampire gains its 11th HD it qualifies for Epic Feats, since you can start acquiring Epic Feats as soon as your ECL hits 21. :smirk: :angel:
Mumm-Ra 08-19-04, 06:43 AM	No, the twins were originally of standard starting level for CotSQ: I was planning on advancing them, given that I wasn't aware that undead couldn't gain additional HD. whatever gave you that idea? Undead can advance like any other character.
ArrDee 08-19-04, 10:00 AM	Originally posted by Mumm-Ra whatever gave you that idea? Undead can advance like any other character. The way Warlack phrased his question; I had been under the impression undead could advance as normal characters and the phrasiology of his statement caught me off guard, hence why I said what I said.
warlockco 08-19-04, 02:04 PM	Ah, sorry about that, just was trying to figure out where 5 levels of cleric came from was all.