Tips for a rogue-ish campaign? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tips for a rogue-ish campaign? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vorpal_Spoon
07-11-05, 03:57 PM I have recently started a campaign in the Western Heartlands. A group of low-level rogue-ish characters of ambiguosly moral alingments doing bad deeds to bad rich people in Hill's Edge. So far, there has been a bit of intrigue with the Zentharim and the Red Wizards.

While not new to DM'ing, I am new to the FR setting and any tips, links, experiences or adventure ideas, would be very welcome. So far, the party seems as if they do not want to join any thieves' guild, nor create one themselves.
Muddman
07-11-05, 05:17 PM The Zhents are a good way to go, more than the Red wizards at least. The Red Wizards are a good adversary for higher level games, that is if they are going to be adversaries.

The Red Wizards usually hire out for rogueish activities to local guilds and such, so maybe they will hire the PCs to act against the Zhents.
Tergiver
07-11-05, 06:19 PM I played in a game where most of the characters had rogue levels (with some notable exceptions). We had a good time, adventured when we had to, paid attention to trade values, and scammed some land after a PC-triggered explosion cleared up some urban real estate.

I think you're definitely looking at a more city-focused adventure. Rogues tend to like the comforts of home, and it's less labor-intensive to stay in town. I'd suggest concentrating on fleshing out the town, and its political elements, and trying to give them enough to work on there. You could also ride them out of town on a rail, and force them to resettle.

The party's actions should have repercussions - the existing guild wanting a cut, or the nobles hiring investigators, or the town system cracking down. You can think "how would I write an adventure if the bad guys were doing these actions?" and start working in PC-looking noble NPCs.

Depending on their motivation, you could also play around with the genre conventions. I've thought that it would be interesting to have a party following around a higher-level party, cleaning up after them and collecting all the loot the higher-level types can't carry or disdain. (Nonmagical armor, weapons, expensive doors, traps...)

Stealth missions are good, although they might require some force - you might get some inspiration from cyberpunk games.
Sakeninja
07-11-05, 10:34 PM Those guys should look at the nightsong guild PrC's in the complete Adventurer. As for ideas. Check out mafia movies or movies where you have a large criminal organization. Their is a movie called Confidence about a group of con men. The movie Sneakers is good for a more espianoge:P theme. In the Western Heartlands they have less to worry baout from the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards than they do the Shadow Thieves. or if they goo too far East, the Night Masks. Send them to Elturel, which is run by priests and paladins of Helm...I have lost a good thief to the depredations of those darn Helmites
Vorpal_Spoon
07-12-05, 09:54 AM One of the reasons that made me decide on Hill's Edge is the "you may end up killing the person who bought you drinks the night before" statement in the FR book. Since the town is very close to Darkhold, meeting with the Zhents should be fairly obvious. Plus there are references to the Red Wizards also having an influence there. There is something I'm not sure what to do with, and its Semmenon's involvement. I would like to include him in the campaign, but he seems to be something of a "wild card".

Speaking of which, I found odd that a town would have temples both of Lliira and Cyric. Add to that the fact that most Zehtharim follow Bane, hmmm... perhaps a Cyricist vs Banenite struggle?

As far as I could tell there doesn't seem to be any thief guilds in that town, and (so far) I'm running the campaign like that. The idea behind it is that the party will try to stomp out any rogues who try to make money in "their town", and that will put them at odds with whatever thief organization decides to infiltrate. Would it be too much of a stretch to have a Shadow Thief vs Nightmasks struggle?
dragonheart
07-12-05, 04:47 PM well in one sense the Zhentarim ARE the theives guild in town :D

as for the Cyric/bane thingie remember that Darkhold is sort of the exception - its the Cyricists holdout spot. and may eventually fully split from the Banite Zhents. Semmemon has already done so and his where abouts are unclear but he seems to have left the Darkhold and moved on to some other location and is keeping a low profile there where ever it is.
Lashan
07-14-05, 02:48 PM I say that good roguish games are made great by good NPCs. I think they set the flavor and really make things great. I mean try to detail everyone a bit. I don't mean stats or give them an interesting story. I mean make sure to play them to the hilt. Also, make some of them stupid. Rogues are about being smart and outfoxing others. Let them do it to others often enough, but don't make each time they do it a major setback for the bad guys.

Also, when you have a lot of detailed people, they can die off easily. You can also add in elements of betrayal and trust. Every rogue needs a fence. You can trust Fat Mojo to rip you off, but not tell anyone. Everil is nice and gives a better cut of the percentages, but will he drop your name when pushed?

I guess it gets down to choices. If you have a stable group of NPCs, then the party can make various decisions about who they want as an ally. Who they want as a fence. Who to manipulate to fight who. I think it's great when someone betrays the party and allies shift. If you detail enough of the populace then you can add in more options.
NeoCount
07-14-05, 08:01 PM Forgotten realms is almost like the planer land scape of Sigil, in that it has a thousand ways to travel from one side of the contenant to the other with but a mere step or word, what better way for a group of rogue characters to get in as much trouble possible anywhere around the globe?!! Think of it, robbing a baron along the sword coast, only to open a closet and find oneself in the upper platue of Thay? with said baron hot on their heels!. I have always been a fan of the cloak and dagger style of rogue play where, nations are all vieing for Information, and are willing to pay top prices for information on their neighbors........
Vorpal_Spoon
07-21-05, 07:00 PM Thanx for all the suggestions. It seems I found a rather interesting way to keep them busy while I look up sources. So far, I'm using several NPC's as taskmasters with plot hooks, but the PC's can pick only one task at any time. The other two NPC's will hire some 'other adventurers' to perform the tasks. The fun part is that all these "other adventures" are NPC's that that the PC's have casually met in shops, festhalls, and other places in town. So that, everytime they take a break in between adventures, they hear what happenned to 'Fighter Joe and his group' that took the job they turned down.

In future adventures, the story could develop into the taskmasters NPC's actually belonging to powerful organizations that are either competing or working together. That way, if PC's do a job for X group they may get a negative reaction from group Y. Heck, they may even have to go against the adventuring NPC's that they hear so much about (and who may have bought them drinks the night before). :eek:

So far, the groups involved are the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, Iron Throne, some powerful noble families, a merchant guild and a few others that the PC's havent discovered yet.

Seems a like a videogame, but everyone seems to be enjoying it. :cool:
Lashan
07-22-05, 10:52 AM That sounds like fun. . I think the groups should be competing, which will lead to all sorts of craziness and potential back-stabbing.
Babo
07-23-05, 06:08 PM I find it helpful to give the characters control or influence over some kind of home turf. While their early adventures might focus on gaining control of it, later on they can try to improve it or fend off attempts to steal or destroy it. Good players will create this situation for you, or you can have their primary bankroller invest heavily in something, such as a caravan. Protecting a caravan or business from extortion attempts in the heavily contested Western Heartlands could be quite a challenge and will expose the players to the secret societies you've meticulously detailed.
Once they get into the secret society scene, the real fun can begin. Set up access levels of each society and create NPCs for each level. Give them agendas. Create some spies. Create agendas for the organizations, then for the individuals and note how these can contrast or contradict each other. Note how friendships, romances, or other private alliances can influence these. The PCs probably present a threat to someone. If that someone knows about it, have them deal with the PCs in an appropriate manner. Others will find the PCs strengthening their position, and these can offer support or valuable information. Perhaps a society will have a purge to try to shake off spies in its ranks. I love secret society purges. Just don't target the PCs!
Since it is a rogue-heavy game, focus heavily on rumors. Include completely true, slightly off, way off, and deliberately false ones. Let the PCs use their ranks in Gather Info, and see that there are consequences of failing to keep up with the word on the street.
Bring market forces to bear on the campaign world. Rogues often act at the behest of merchants who are trying to raise or lower the price of certain goods. The political climate of almost every realm is influenced by the prevailing economic factors. It's a lot of fun to have laws enacted or more strictly enforced when a group of morally questionable rogues starts doing too well.
However, don't get too carried away with either secret-mongering or putting PC interests in danger. If the PCs never really get to the bottom of things, the players will feel manipulated and start to see their actions as pointless. A little mystery gets them involved and makes the world more realistic, but too much will hurt your game. The danger of threatening the PCs all the time is that their freedom is affected by your choice of doing so. Forcing their hands by always threatening them with some kind of destruction doesn't really allow them to do what they want.
ElGrecoETAC
07-23-05, 06:10 PM Read some "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" stories by Fritz Leiber. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vorpal_Spoon 07-11-05, 03:57 PM	I have recently started a campaign in the Western Heartlands. A group of low-level rogue-ish characters of ambiguosly moral alingments doing bad deeds to bad rich people in Hill's Edge. So far, there has been a bit of intrigue with the Zentharim and the Red Wizards. While not new to DM'ing, I am new to the FR setting and any tips, links, experiences or adventure ideas, would be very welcome. So far, the party seems as if they do not want to join any thieves' guild, nor create one themselves.
Muddman 07-11-05, 05:17 PM	The Zhents are a good way to go, more than the Red wizards at least. The Red Wizards are a good adversary for higher level games, that is if they are going to be adversaries. The Red Wizards usually hire out for rogueish activities to local guilds and such, so maybe they will hire the PCs to act against the Zhents.
Tergiver 07-11-05, 06:19 PM	I played in a game where most of the characters had rogue levels (with some notable exceptions). We had a good time, adventured when we had to, paid attention to trade values, and scammed some land after a PC-triggered explosion cleared up some urban real estate. I think you're definitely looking at a more city-focused adventure. Rogues tend to like the comforts of home, and it's less labor-intensive to stay in town. I'd suggest concentrating on fleshing out the town, and its political elements, and trying to give them enough to work on there. You could also ride them out of town on a rail, and force them to resettle. The party's actions should have repercussions - the existing guild wanting a cut, or the nobles hiring investigators, or the town system cracking down. You can think "how would I write an adventure if the bad guys were doing these actions?" and start working in PC-looking noble NPCs. Depending on their motivation, you could also play around with the genre conventions. I've thought that it would be interesting to have a party following around a higher-level party, cleaning up after them and collecting all the loot the higher-level types can't carry or disdain. (Nonmagical armor, weapons, expensive doors, traps...) Stealth missions are good, although they might require some force - you might get some inspiration from cyberpunk games.
Sakeninja 07-11-05, 10:34 PM	Those guys should look at the nightsong guild PrC's in the complete Adventurer. As for ideas. Check out mafia movies or movies where you have a large criminal organization. Their is a movie called Confidence about a group of con men. The movie Sneakers is good for a more espianoge:P theme. In the Western Heartlands they have less to worry baout from the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards than they do the Shadow Thieves. or if they goo too far East, the Night Masks. Send them to Elturel, which is run by priests and paladins of Helm...I have lost a good thief to the depredations of those darn Helmites
Vorpal_Spoon 07-12-05, 09:54 AM	One of the reasons that made me decide on Hill's Edge is the "you may end up killing the person who bought you drinks the night before" statement in the FR book. Since the town is very close to Darkhold, meeting with the Zhents should be fairly obvious. Plus there are references to the Red Wizards also having an influence there. There is something I'm not sure what to do with, and its Semmenon's involvement. I would like to include him in the campaign, but he seems to be something of a "wild card". Speaking of which, I found odd that a town would have temples both of Lliira and Cyric. Add to that the fact that most Zehtharim follow Bane, hmmm... perhaps a Cyricist vs Banenite struggle? As far as I could tell there doesn't seem to be any thief guilds in that town, and (so far) I'm running the campaign like that. The idea behind it is that the party will try to stomp out any rogues who try to make money in "their town", and that will put them at odds with whatever thief organization decides to infiltrate. Would it be too much of a stretch to have a Shadow Thief vs Nightmasks struggle?
dragonheart 07-12-05, 04:47 PM	well in one sense the Zhentarim ARE the theives guild in town :D as for the Cyric/bane thingie remember that Darkhold is sort of the exception - its the Cyricists holdout spot. and may eventually fully split from the Banite Zhents. Semmemon has already done so and his where abouts are unclear but he seems to have left the Darkhold and moved on to some other location and is keeping a low profile there where ever it is.
Lashan 07-14-05, 02:48 PM	I say that good roguish games are made great by good NPCs. I think they set the flavor and really make things great. I mean try to detail everyone a bit. I don't mean stats or give them an interesting story. I mean make sure to play them to the hilt. Also, make some of them stupid. Rogues are about being smart and outfoxing others. Let them do it to others often enough, but don't make each time they do it a major setback for the bad guys. Also, when you have a lot of detailed people, they can die off easily. You can also add in elements of betrayal and trust. Every rogue needs a fence. You can trust Fat Mojo to rip you off, but not tell anyone. Everil is nice and gives a better cut of the percentages, but will he drop your name when pushed? I guess it gets down to choices. If you have a stable group of NPCs, then the party can make various decisions about who they want as an ally. Who they want as a fence. Who to manipulate to fight who. I think it's great when someone betrays the party and allies shift. If you detail enough of the populace then you can add in more options.
NeoCount 07-14-05, 08:01 PM	Forgotten realms is almost like the planer land scape of Sigil, in that it has a thousand ways to travel from one side of the contenant to the other with but a mere step or word, what better way for a group of rogue characters to get in as much trouble possible anywhere around the globe?!! Think of it, robbing a baron along the sword coast, only to open a closet and find oneself in the upper platue of Thay? with said baron hot on their heels!. I have always been a fan of the cloak and dagger style of rogue play where, nations are all vieing for Information, and are willing to pay top prices for information on their neighbors........
Vorpal_Spoon 07-21-05, 07:00 PM	Thanx for all the suggestions. It seems I found a rather interesting way to keep them busy while I look up sources. So far, I'm using several NPC's as taskmasters with plot hooks, but the PC's can pick only one task at any time. The other two NPC's will hire some 'other adventurers' to perform the tasks. The fun part is that all these "other adventures" are NPC's that that the PC's have casually met in shops, festhalls, and other places in town. So that, everytime they take a break in between adventures, they hear what happenned to 'Fighter Joe and his group' that took the job they turned down. In future adventures, the story could develop into the taskmasters NPC's actually belonging to powerful organizations that are either competing or working together. That way, if PC's do a job for X group they may get a negative reaction from group Y. Heck, they may even have to go against the adventuring NPC's that they hear so much about (and who may have bought them drinks the night before). :eek: So far, the groups involved are the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, Iron Throne, some powerful noble families, a merchant guild and a few others that the PC's havent discovered yet. Seems a like a videogame, but everyone seems to be enjoying it. :cool:
Lashan 07-22-05, 10:52 AM	That sounds like fun. . I think the groups should be competing, which will lead to all sorts of craziness and potential back-stabbing.
Babo 07-23-05, 06:08 PM	I find it helpful to give the characters control or influence over some kind of home turf. While their early adventures might focus on gaining control of it, later on they can try to improve it or fend off attempts to steal or destroy it. Good players will create this situation for you, or you can have their primary bankroller invest heavily in something, such as a caravan. Protecting a caravan or business from extortion attempts in the heavily contested Western Heartlands could be quite a challenge and will expose the players to the secret societies you've meticulously detailed. Once they get into the secret society scene, the real fun can begin. Set up access levels of each society and create NPCs for each level. Give them agendas. Create some spies. Create agendas for the organizations, then for the individuals and note how these can contrast or contradict each other. Note how friendships, romances, or other private alliances can influence these. The PCs probably present a threat to someone. If that someone knows about it, have them deal with the PCs in an appropriate manner. Others will find the PCs strengthening their position, and these can offer support or valuable information. Perhaps a society will have a purge to try to shake off spies in its ranks. I love secret society purges. Just don't target the PCs! Since it is a rogue-heavy game, focus heavily on rumors. Include completely true, slightly off, way off, and deliberately false ones. Let the PCs use their ranks in Gather Info, and see that there are consequences of failing to keep up with the word on the street. Bring market forces to bear on the campaign world. Rogues often act at the behest of merchants who are trying to raise or lower the price of certain goods. The political climate of almost every realm is influenced by the prevailing economic factors. It's a lot of fun to have laws enacted or more strictly enforced when a group of morally questionable rogues starts doing too well. However, don't get too carried away with either secret-mongering or putting PC interests in danger. If the PCs never really get to the bottom of things, the players will feel manipulated and start to see their actions as pointless. A little mystery gets them involved and makes the world more realistic, but too much will hurt your game. The danger of threatening the PCs all the time is that their freedom is affected by your choice of doing so. Forcing their hands by always threatening them with some kind of destruction doesn't really allow them to do what they want.
ElGrecoETAC 07-23-05, 06:10 PM	Read some "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" stories by Fritz Leiber. :)