Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chris7476 03-06-04, 08:50 PM	I'm currently preparing to run this module. I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on areas or encouters to watch our for. Is there anything that was surprisingly deadly or difficult to run? As I read through it, a few things have crossed my mind: - Lack of treasure. There seems to be a lot of low-level items but as the challenge increases, the items don't seem to scale in power. - Keening spirits. These look especially nasty. These could take out an entire party or close to if people roll poorly on saves or have low Fort saves.
Cunning Linguist 03-06-04, 09:02 PM	The lack of items? Well, they have to good stuff anyways. Put in a nice weapon a special creature, something with a little exstra spice, and noone will be the wiser. Keening Spirit? My players have taken down one of these, with no great problem, but on the other hand, they did have a problem with a vampire, who was about the same CR as the rest of the party.. it's all how you fight a monster..
BobROE 03-06-04, 11:30 PM	It's painfully good at killing characters. I got a TPK on the first encounter. My characters just gave up after a while in disgust, they couldn't bear anymore death.
Dichotomy 03-07-04, 06:07 PM	Chris, I am nearly done with the adventure in my group. Here are some things that I found worth noting: -As a general rule, most of the NPCs were built at a VERY sub-optimal level. If your players are even slightly good at character building, you should probably fix the NPCs. -The composition of the party will almost completely determine how hard the adventure is. I had 2 TPKs, but now the third has just waltzed through Maerimydra and the castle (despite the fact that they have NO cleric). You should try as much as you can to tailor things to your group (which is somewhat annoying, since you buy an adventure to minimize this). -I think when the adventure was written the author didn't know/realize that the spell Wind Walk exists. This spell can pretty easily eliminate all of the trek from Szith Morcane to Maerimydra, which would be quite deadly to the party when they reach the city (having not gained enough levels). You may need to be very creative in getting a Wind Walking party to stop. -Depending upon the playing style your group has, you may have to put more effort into getting real roleplaying situations to happen. If your group wants a dungeon crawl, no problem. But if they want more roleplay and less combat, the latter part of the adventure has a great likelihood of providing little (unless it is tweaked). Once you get into the castle, the adventure can very easily start to look like nothing but "Okay. I killed everything in this room. Next." You can probably see the theme these notes have: be willing to customize. The more you do, the better it will work for your group (although I think you can have an enjoyable experience anyway, but the work would be worth it). The adventure is just too huge to fit every group perfectly.
Hygric 03-07-04, 09:48 PM	Avoid wandering monsters such as six Bodaks. We met some, and half the party died in the first round due to six fort saves or die. That was fun... :rolleyes: It was a very lethal module, too much so in many places. Meat-grinder modules get very boring very quickly and just encourage munchkinism as a Darwinian process. My advice? Don't bother with this module.
chris7476 03-08-04, 01:04 AM	As a general rule, most of the NPCs were built at a VERY sub-optimal level. If your players are even slightly good at character building, you should probably fix the NPCs I noticed that most of the drow have odd weapon choices. Also, many of the NPC's seem to have questionable feat choices (Discipline?!). I think I might vary some of the wizards too. I might make some specialists or give them some PrC's. You should try as much as you can to tailor things to your group Can you give any examples? You may need to be very creative in getting a Wind Walking party to stop. I have heard this mentioned before. Any suggestions? Meat-grinder modules get very boring very quickly and just encourage munchkinism It can't be any worse than the RttToEE. I played through most of it and that was like pulling teeth. CotSQ looks far more inventive to me than the Temple.
Treskin 03-08-04, 03:01 AM	I started the module with 5 level 9 PC's, and they have done decently well. There has been several deaths on their way up to level 13, but usually because I run a good strategy against the players with the excuse that they have been scryed on, or when they would kill a room, then leave for a week. So far I have only TPW'd on the Shadow Dragon in the Wailing Cliff, though the party almost killed it since I was playing it a little soft (didn't cast deeper darkness until it was half HP). I've now decided this encounter is too hard, even after the new party all purchsed Blindfolds of Blindsight to negate half it's abilities. -4 Level Drain breath weapon every 1d4 rounds, DC 26 for -2 Levels, is insane. They lost half their spells, couldnt hit the dragon's 38 AC at all, and then didn't stand a chance of making the save against the next breath. There as the possiblilty they would have wiped on the Fiendish Kraken had a played it more intelligently, but that would have killed their spirits - as it it would have grappled 3 of them and drawn them down 200 feet into the water... bye bye. The module looks like it will be continue to be somewhat deadly, but nowhere near as bad as RtToEE which I'm a PC in right now.
Mumm-Ra 03-08-04, 08:38 AM	You should bear in mind that some fights are not supposed to happen. If any PC has any brains at all, they ought to RUN in the shadow dragon encounter, hopefully using magic to just get past the wailing cliff without stopping to fight. If they get attacked, I say a few hits taken on the way is better than a TPK by the dragon. Many npc's are suboptimal indeed, and they do need tweaking. I give the drow improved SR instead of some rubbish feats, and perhaps improved toughness for the undead among them to boost the generally mediocre undead hps. I also assuma all undead are created in a desecrated temple of an evil deity (the undying temple). Combined with improved toughness, this gives undead 1d12+3 hps per hit die! Many of the fighters using two handed weapons are equipped with potions of Shield (+4 ac) which they drink before a major fight (e.g. against the pc's). I also tend to rearrange stats to lower stupidly high cha and int scores that many drow fighters have, and bump str , con, and dex up instead. Basically general optimisation to make them a little tougher. Also, what do ppl do about the balor? Do you replace him with something weaker, or keep him as he is? Bearing in mind the balor became waaaay harder in 3.5, i was considering making him a cornugon.
Mumm-Ra 03-08-04, 08:38 AM	You should bear in mind that some fights are not supposed to happen. If any PC has any brains at all, they ought to RUN in the shadow dragon encounter, hopefully using magic to just get past the wailing cliff without stopping to fight. If they get attacked, I say a few hits taken on the way is better than a TPK by the dragon. Many npc's are suboptimal indeed, and they do need tweaking. I give the drow improved SR instead of some rubbish feats, and perhaps improved toughness for the undead among them to boost the generally mediocre undead hps. I also assuma all undead are created in a desecrated temple of an evil deity (the undying temple). Combined with improved toughness, this gives undead 1d12+3 hps per hit die! Many of the fighters using two handed weapons are equipped with potions of Shield (+4 ac) which they drink before a major fight (e.g. against the pc's). I also tend to rearrange stats to lower stupidly high cha and int scores that many drow fighters have, and bump str , con, and dex up instead. Basically general optimisation to make them a little tougher. Also, what do ppl do about the balor? Do you replace him with something weaker, or keep him as he is? Bearing in mind the balor became waaaay harder in 3.5, i was conidering making him a cornugon.
Cunning Linguist 03-08-04, 08:54 AM	I changed the Balor into a DemonFlesh golem, from Fiends Folio. It looks like a Balor, I told my players that everyone thought it was a balor, but after they took it down, they to found out that, hey, this is no balor!. A funny plot twist I might add.
Zanan 03-08-04, 10:52 AM	You may find a look into my revision (http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php?showtopic=79) helpful. Any suggestion can be posted there as well, so we can make it even bigger and better than it is already. :b:
Dichotomy 03-08-04, 05:21 PM	The easiest way to tailor the adventure more for a specific party is probably altering tactics. I find it simpler than altering the NPCs themselves, but since they need work anyway, you may want to completely revamp them (depending upon how much you plan to alter them anyway. It is hard to give very concrete advice since (from my experience) the adventure has the possibility of being far too easy OR far too lethal. Depending upon which of those is the case with your group, you will need to make very different adjustments. One thing I struggled with was trying to remember that the drow are very resourceful and very smart. If the party starts easily winning every fight, have the baddies run to the next room/encounter area where they know there are more people. It is unrealistic to think that most things will fight a losing battle. Other specifics I found useful: -If the party has a cleric and encounters are too easy, use less undead. Too hard, use more. -Parties that are more primarily melee focused seem to have a real edge in this adventure. The party in my game (that is, the party that finally made it to the end) had only one spellcaster (arcane), but still had far too easy a time. -Virtually every arcane NPC uses haste and is built around having the ability to cast an extra spell each round. If you use 3.5, you need to adjust for this if your party easily mops the spellcasters up. As for dealing with Wind Walk, most of the ideas I came up with are pretty cheesy. Perhaps have areas of anti-magic. Depending upon your party, they may just decide to stop for encounters rather than breeze past. Otherwise you need reasons for them to stop. One thing I did was place things that look like they may be treasure. That generally will get a party to stop. Another thing to remember is that after the party gets through Szith Morcane, it is plausible that the Kiaransaleen will monitor them. Then, at the least, the drow encountered will be prepared for Wind Walkers and dispel such. Hope that helps. BTW, Cunning, I am glad the Demon Flesh Golem worked for you.
J. Grenemyer 03-09-04, 03:57 AM	Hello Chris7476, I’m currently running the last part of CotSQ. The following list isn’t so much about what encounters I think are most dangerous as it is advice gleaned from my own DMing misadventures from running this module: Encourage someone to run a Cleric. Picking up a Cleric as a Cohort will help too. The treasure seemed about right to me. Just remember that if your party is super-stealthy, they may avoid random encounters that help fill up PC’s treasure-pockets. I’d increase rewards for the encounters they do participate in to compensate. Using a 3.5 Balor as is will upset the balance of encounters within Maerimydra (particularly as Kurgoth is supposed to be more of a challenge). However, if your PC’s seem overconfident or are waltzing through the adventure, keep it. Castle Maerimydra may seem “less threatening” since many of its occupants are no match in a one on one battle vs. a party of PC’s. However, these peons are all trained to swarm the party, at which point they become a whole helluva lot more effective as an attacking group. Thus, don’t give in to the urge to up the NPC’s power! Prepare before you run the Castle by reading and then re-reading the room descriptions and NPC/Monster stats. I was foolish enough to think I didn’t need to do this; boy was I wrong! Write up a Hit Point chart and revised stats for all the Castle NPC’s (including their improved, BaB, AC, saves, etc.. with spells active) ahead of time. Doing this will keep things running smooth once the game starts. Skip revising all the stats to 3.5 if you can, unless you’ve got plenty of time on your hands. I tried it and gave up after a half-days work. Lastly, sub in Maur-Giants and Illithid Body Tamers if you have access to the Underdark sourcebook. These creatures are IMO a much better fit to Kurgoth’s wild army than Fire Giants and all the various humanoids/giants. Including spell scrolls and magic items found in that sourcebook also makes the adventure more believable. Hope this helps! :D
Doran Kess 03-09-04, 10:06 AM	Has anyone tried running this as an evil campaign? With a band of evil Drow (as in the War of the Spider Queen book series)? I thought it could be a lot more fun because there may be more of a chance for the PCs to talk their way through certain parts of the adventure. My friend tried to run it as a normal adventure and it just ended up grinding to a halt. There were 4 player deaths before even getting to the Vampires! I've taken the module from him with the plan of running it for my own group and I'd love to know if anyone has any advice about running it using the Underdark book as a primary sourcebook for characters.
Nimzz 03-10-04, 02:38 PM	i ran it is an evil drow adventure and it worked very well... it helps to add in an adventure on the way there however...my sugestcion would be to have to party have to find out what happened to Loth and have them check up on Siez Morcane i thought that the adventure needed some role playing so i added in i few side adventures...like returning that drow archmage from being a silverwraith back to a drow in return for his help against Irea...(he betrayed them but o well it was fun) also i turned the city part of the adventure much harder...i did alot of twiking to make the city much more interesting...i added alot of side quests and had Irea side a bunch of minions down to deal with the party this turned the city into the most memerable part of the adventure... i had the forbidnace spell require a token to enter and their were only a few tokens out in the city so the party had to deal with many fraction to get enough tokens...like having them ambuse a patrol wich turned out to be an ambush itself also there were quite a few enconters out in the city...Irea had minions confront the party many times in the forms of demons and devils... i left the balor as it was...i thought it added to the scene having the party having to acomplish their mission while hiding from it... for another fraction in the city i added in an NPC lich from the lower dark...(shadow adept 7 wizards 7 archmage 5) who wanted the claw that Irea uses...he was acompanied by with own little force of minions...
Doran Kess 03-10-04, 03:35 PM	Nimzz - What was your party composition? Does anyone think that trying to convince a player to play a Cleric of Lloth would be a good idea? You see, most of my players are reading WotSQ and are thoroughly enjoying it. So, I thought that mirroring that storyline would be a good idea. Having a priestess lead the party would be kewl. I'd start her off with a full complement of spells and lots of great magic items to make up for the fact that she won't be getting any more spells during the adventure. I'd also probably convince the player to take Leadership and then give her a Draegloth and maybe some other beener minions. Do you think thats a good trade-off for not having any spells to cast? There ARE quite a few magic items that she will be able to use off the bodies of dead priestesses and there are quite a few clerics of Kiaransalee running around. Oh, and there is a good side-adventure that can be found in Dungeon # 92 - Spiral of Manzessine. It could be fun to run. :88E:
chris7476 03-10-04, 04:52 PM	You see, most of my players are reading WotSQ and are thoroughly enjoying it. So, I thought that mirroring that storyline would be a good idea. Having a priestess lead the party would be kewl. I'd start her off with a full complement of spells and lots of great magic items to make up for the fact that she won't be getting any more spells during the adventure I haven't read the books but a cleric that's not able to replenish spells is almost useless IMO. CotSQ is pretty deadly and a cleric is almost required. I don't think any host of items can make up for that. Oh, and there is a good side-adventure that can be found in Dungeon # 92 - Spiral of Manzessine. It could be fun to run I read it and really like it. I plan to use it. It's a borderline railroad to get the players to go there but whatever. It's also a decent way to slow down any potential wind walkers too. --------- Also, I would like to hear from anyone about the parties that have run through this module and any effectiveness or difficulties certain classes had.
Nimzz 03-11-04, 07:08 PM	we had alot of players in our party...so here goes... wizard-12 level (the wizard had a follower ranger 7 and an apprentice conjurer 6) ranger/ assassin 6/5 (he functioned as a rouge as well) fighter/barbarian 5/6 cleric of selvertiam/drow judicator 6/6 (he was a fighter cleric) cleric of loth 15 my players started out at higher levels as i skipped the first part of the adventure and made it signifiantly harder... when creating our PCs i gave my players a choice either they could play a cleric of Loth start a +4 the normal level of the party but they could not gain more spells (this was balanced by the larger gold amount)... or the players could be a normal level cleric of selvertiam (as he is Loth's champian i said that we was acepted)...this made for great role playing between the two clerics and the wizard all viaing for power...