Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 10:56 PM	So, who exactly is THE Realms God of Goodness and Snuggliness in your opinion? Who exactly do you think the novels and supplemental material should focus on as the Source of all that is holding the Horde of Orkiness and evil away to keep 'Civilization as we know itTM' from falling? Share whose your favorite if that's too hard. ;-)
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 11:11 PM	Well considering Mystra is dead and Tyr is about to exit stage right you've only got three choices there. I'de say it's going to be TORM though.:D Imagine Torm standing there with his consort, the Red Knight. I'de imagine now that he's going to be a Greater Deity Tempus will think him worthy of his adopted daughter's love.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 11:12 PM	You can choose 3E and before. *cries over Tyr's grave* DAMMIT! I DON'T WANT NATIVE GODS! TORIL IS EARTH'S DOUBLE! IT'S DOUBBBLLEEEEE!
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 11:13 PM	Tyr was corrupt and needed to die. The bastard killed Helm....
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 11:17 PM	I vote for Torm, naturally. :) The guy's been wrapped up in all sorts of things ever since the Time of Troubles. Starting with killing Bane in one-on-one combat (He avenged his own death. Not a lot of people can say that), to getting involved in the whole Cyrinishad thing alongside Mystra, Oghma, and Mask, which resulted in Cyric getting dropkicked out of the Fugue Plane. And then there's the Penance of Duty, in which his servants work towards three separate goals. The first is the Debt of Persecution, in which they aid in the establishment and defence of other good churches. The second is the Debt of Dereliction, in which they do everything they can to fight the churches of Bane and Cyric, as well as the Zhentarim. The third is the Debt of Destruction, in which they seek out dead and wild magic areas, account for them, and seek to repair them. So Torm's not only actively fighting evil, but he's also helping to protect and nurture other good Faerunian faiths, and working to heal the scars from the Time of Troubles. Torm was definitely one of the most pro-active asskickers for the forces of good out there. And he did all that while still being just a Lesser Power.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 11:33 PM	Tyr was corrupt and needed to die. The bastard killed Helm.... Helm had it coming. There's no room for Lawful Neutrality in Heaven. Tyr said "Dude, don't make me kill you!" Helm went "Grrr, Helm smash." Tyr said "I said...dude....I will kill you." Helm said "Die, one armed Blind man!" Tyr said "So was Zatoichi and the One Armed Swordsman." And thus ended the story of Helm, Mystra killer.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 11:35 PM	I vote for Torm, naturally. :) The guy's been wrapped up in all sorts of things ever since the Time of Troubles. Starting with killing Bane in one-on-one combat (He avenged his own death. Not a lot of people can say that), to getting involved in the whole Cyrinishad thing alongside Mystra, Oghma, and Mask, which resulted in Cyric getting dropkicked out of the Fugue Plane. And then there's the Penance of Duty, in which his servants work towards three separate goals. The first is the Debt of Persecution, in which they aid in the establishment and defence of other good churches. The second is the Debt of Dereliction, in which they do everything they can to fight the churches of Bane and Cyric, as well as the Zhentarim. The third is the Debt of Destruction, in which they seek out dead and wild magic areas, account for them, and seek to repair them. So Torm's not only actively fighting evil, but he's also helping to protect and nurture other good Faerunian faiths, and working to heal the scars from the Time of Troubles. Torm was definitely one of the most pro-active asskickers for the forces of good out there. And he did all that while still being just a Lesser Power. -Yeah!!! (In best Cartman voice)"Kickass"!!!:D DIRTY D:P
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 11:36 PM	So Torm's not only actively fighting evil, but he's also helping to protect and nurture other good Faerunian faiths, and working to heal the scars from the Time of Troubles. Torm was definitely one of the most pro-active asskickers for the forces of good out there. And he did all that while still being just a Lesser Power. Torm is awesome, is true. But it's not like Tyr and Ilmater weren't pulling their weight in exactly the same way. Ultimately, I liked the idea of Tyr as the Champion of "Civilizing" Toril while Ilmater was the guy handling all the pain and healing out there.
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 11:47 PM	Tyr never struck me as all that proactive (Certainly not to the degree that Torm, Man of Action was in the novels, anyway). Not to mention that he severely crippled his own team over his ego. He drove off Siamorphe, killed Helm, and then drove off Ilmater, which shattered the Triad. Yeah, bad writing and all, but there it is. But yeah, I'm hoping he doesn't get killed, either. If it were up to me, he'd give up his position in shame over what he did to his friend Helm and leave Faerun, beginning a Procession of Justice on some other world. It'd be pretty appropriate for the God of Justice to pass judgment and carry out a sentence (in this case, banishment) on himself. And it'd be nice to see him beginning anew on another world (Not as if it'd be a first for him). That'd end Tyr's story on a hopeful note, at least IMO. As for Torm, once Tyr's gone, I expect he'll be able to get Siamorphe and Ilmater back in the House of the Triad (Soon as he ships Tymora home, that is). If he can also get Bahamut on the team, then he, Ilmater, and Bahamut could form a new Triad, like so. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2253904Triad1.jpg Torm on the top rung as a Greater God, and Ilmater and Bahamut on the next level, both Lesser Gods (Equal in power to each other. I never cared for Ilmater and Torm being part of the Triad and being Intermediate and Lesser, respectively. That's a totem pole, not a triad). We'll see what happens, but personally, I'd love to see the Lion, the Martyr, and the Dragon forming a new Triad.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 12:03 AM	I have no doubt in my mind that Helm was the guilty party and the same for Siamoprhe. Seriously, Helm and Siamorphe have always been scharacters associated with elements that don't really jibe with Justice for All. Helm is about Blind Loyalty and Duty Above All Else. He's the exemplar of "Once I start down this path, I will not deter from it." He murdered the original Mystra when he could have stopped her any other ways. You don't blame him for that because he's like the Terminator, he can't stop himself. However, that doesn't mean Tyr was wrong for killing him. On the contrary, it just means that Tyr destroyed a man who wouldn't stop coming because that's Helm's fatal flaw. Frankly, I'm a little ashamed of Ilmater because Sune cares nothing really about Good or Justice like Tyr does. Sune cares about Good in a General and Abstract Way as "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was happy?" Siamorphe I doubt will find Sune's Realm any more inviting than Mount Celestia because, let's face it, the sheer appalling ARROGANCE of that woman will always make her troubled. She's a bigot against the commoners while the others realize that noble blood is just red as anyone elses. In the end, Tyr's leaving pretty much only makes the power of evil stronger in the Realms. When Torm was blindingly charging forth, Tyr was looking after people. He was the guy who gently guided people to justice. What about Pier The Open Lord and the Knights of Samular? So, he abandons his own followers now? The people in the North of Neverwinter Nights? Where's the Justice in that? He was the Norse God who abandoned the Ways of Savagery and destruction to embrace civilization. Now, there's no one to save us from Kesef when the world ends. Thanks Tyr, thanks a lot.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 12:21 AM	On the contrary, it just means that Tyr destroyed a man who wouldn't stop coming because that's Helm's fatal flaw. The problem with that is that it was Tyr who started the fight, not Helm. He challenged Helm to a duel. On top of which, he's well aware of Helm's nature, so he should've known that Helm would've never tried to win Tymora's heart while Tyr was trying to court her. In the end, Tyr's leaving pretty much only makes the power of evil stronger in the Realms. I disagree with that. Tyr's fractured the forces of good with his actions. While Helm wasn't good, his Portfolios placed him squarely as an opponent of most evil gods. He killed Helm, drove Ilmater away, and broke the Triad. Helm's former worshippers would naturally despise Tyr, and the same is probably true of Tymora's worshippers, Ilmater's worshippers, Siamorphe's worshippers, and Triad worshippers. Without Tyr, that damage can be repaired. What about Pier The Open Lord and the Knights of Samular? So, he abandons his own followers now? The people in the North of Neverwinter Nights? That's assuming they didn't abandon him. Many of Helm's worshippers abandoned him for far less, after all. Besides, he wouldn't be abandoning them. He'd be turning them over to the care of Torm.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 12:28 AM	The problem with that is that it was Tyr who started the fight, not Helm. He challenged Helm to a duel. On top of which, he's well aware of Helm's nature, so he should've known that Helm would've never tried to win Tymora's heart while Tyr was trying to court her. I assume that Tyr's squarely in the right for doing so then. Because Tyr is the embodiment of Justice while Helm is Lawful Neutral and a guy whose responsible for murdering Mystra/Maztica/etc. I think Tyr's earned well more trust than a guy whose always been a questionable ally of justice. Plus, Tyr bound Cyric. I disagree with that. Tyr's fractured the forces of good with his actions. While Helm wasn't good, his Portfolios placed him squarely as an opponent of most evil gods. He killed Helm, drove Ilmater away, and broke the Triad. Helm's former worshippers would naturally despise Tyr, and the same is probably true of Tymora's worshippers, Ilmater's worshippers, Siamorphe's worshippers, and Triad worshippers. Without Tyr, that damage can be repaired. Ilmater broke the Triad to go to a place of frollicking and mindless Decadence. That's utterly against his nature and I can't think of a place worse for the God of Martyrs. Seriously, Ilmater makes more sense in the :censored: Supreme Throne than he makes sense in Brightwater. As for Tymora, why would she despise Tyr? He slew Helm. A person that probably was fully at fault. Siamoprhe should be slain and her portfolios given to a decent goddess of Tethyr, I vote Red Knight. Tyr is everything that is just and noble in the world. He's Faerun's Draco Paladine or Silver Flame or Heirnonimous (Torm is Saint Cuthbert). The only god equally good is Lathander. He's the Benevolent Father whose looking out for us.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 12:55 AM	I assume that Tyr's squarely in the right for doing so then. Because Tyr is the embodiment of Justice while Helm is Lawful Neutral and a guy whose responsible for murdering Mystra/Maztica/etc. I think Tyr's earned well more trust than a guy whose always been a questionable ally of justice. Do you believe that Helm was trying to steal Tymora right out from under Tyr's nose? As you yourself said, "Helm is about Blind Loyalty and Duty Above All Else". He's not about to betray his duty for any reason. Especially not for a woman with whom he shares nothing in common and whose being is antithetical to his. Helm has always been who he is. Questionable ally of justice? Maybe. But justice has never been his purview. Justice, however, was Tyr's. And rather than giving Helm a just and proper trial over the accusations he levied against Helm, he challenged him and killed him. Is that justice? Ilmater broke the Triad to go to a place of frollicking and mindless Decadence. That's utterly against his nature and I can't think of a place worse for the God of Martyrs. Seriously, Ilmater makes more sense in the :censored: Supreme Throne than he makes sense in Brightwater. I doubt he's happy about moving in there, but if he feels the cause is just, then he's willing to... ahem... martyr himself in both great and small ways. ;) And he apparently feels that Tyr's actions were unjust. He certainly wouldn't go so far as to break the Triad unless he felt otherwise. As for Tymora, why would she despise Tyr? He slew Helm. A person that probably was fully at fault. Her reaction in A Grand History of the Realms seems to indicate otherwise. "The two gods do battle, and Tyr slays Helm before the deities come to their senses. Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad". He's the Benevolent Father whose looking out for us. Helm, Ilmater, Tymora, and Siamorphe would probably disagree with that. A Chaotic Good god, two Lawful Neutral gods, and a Lawful Good god became pretty upset over Tyr's actions. Either they're all in the wrong, or Tyr is. IMO, the latter is true. Seems to me like Tyr's been letting his inner Asgardian out.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 01:33 AM	Do you believe that Helm was trying to steal Tymora right out from under Tyr's nose? As you yourself said, "Helm is about Blind Loyalty and Duty Above All Else". He's not about to betray his duty for any reason. Especially not for a woman with whom he shares nothing in common and whose being is antithetical to his. Helm has always been who he is. Questionable ally of justice? Maybe. But justice has never been his purview. Justice, however, was Tyr's. And rather than giving Helm a just and proper trial over the accusations he levied against Helm, he challenged him and killed him. Is that justice? It depends how Cyric arranged it. It might be something much more than "I was attempting to court her from out from under you." Personally, I think that we might see Helm try and attack Tymora in a blind jealousy or something otherwise Cyric motivated that noble Tyr must defend her from. I doubt he's happy about moving in there, but if he feels the cause is just, then he's willing to... ahem... martyr himself in both great and small ways. And he apparently feels that Tyr's actions were unjust. He certainly wouldn't go so far as to break the Triad unless he felt otherwise. Torm certainly feels that Tyr's actions were just, however. Frankly, Ilmater is a big hippie anyway so it's not unprecedented. "The two gods do battle, and Tyr slays Helm before the deities come to their senses. Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad". Heartbroken, yes. She probably feels it was terrible that Tyr had to kill his best friend. Yet, she still married Tyr. Luck is on Justice's side. Helm, Ilmater, Tymora, and Siamorphe would probably disagree with that. A Chaotic Good god, two Lawful Neutral gods, and a Lawful Good god became pretty upset over Tyr's actions. Either they're all in the wrong, or Tyr is. IMO, the latter is true. Seems to me like Tyr's been letting his inner Asgardian out. Nothing says that Tymora disapproved of Tyr's actions, merely she's heart broken. Certainly, Tyr feels the same way that he was forced to do it. However, Obi Wan was heartbroken when he had to kill Anakin Skywalker (or thought he did). I imagine Helm is too. As for "inner asgardian", Helm is based on Heimdallr. Frankly, either of them could be the one at fault. and Siamorphe didn't disapprove at all! Where are you getting this?
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:44 AM	It depends how Cyric arranged it. It might be something much more than "I was attempting to court her from out from under you." Personally, I think that we might see Helm try and attack Tymora in a blind jealousy or something otherwise Cyric motivated that noble Tyr must defend her from. Except that that's not how things happened. Helm didn't attack Tymora or anything of the sort. What happened is that Tyr came to believe that Helm had stolen Tymora's heart and challenged him to a duel. It was Tyr who was jealous, not Helm. Jealously led him to accuse Helm of stealing Tymora away from him, and jealousy led him to challenge Tyr to a duel. Helm has no reason at all to be jealous, much less attack Tymora in a blind rage. Torm certainly feels that Tyr's actions were just, however. Frankly, Ilmater is a big hippie anyway so it's not unprecedented. No mention was made of Torm, so we have no idea what he believes of the situation. As for Ilmater, has he ever removed himself from the Triad, before? If not, then it is unprecedented. Heartbroken, yes. She probably feels it was terrible that Tyr had to kill his best friend. Yet, she still married Tyr. Or she felt trapped in her marriage with Tyr. As for "inner asgardian", Helm is based on Heimdallr. Frankly, either of them could be the one at fault. For Helm to be at fault, you'd have to disregard what's written in A Grand History of the Realms. and Siamorphe didn't disapprove at all! Where are you getting this? His argument with Siamorphe is what started the whole thing. The disagreement with her was so bad that she went and removed herself from the House of the Triad. The point is that Tyr's come into conflict with several gods (all of whom are friends or allies) in a short span of time. Either they're all in the wrong, or he is. The more likely scenario is that he is.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 01:47 AM	I think you're reading a great deal more into those statements than was what implied. There's a great deal more vague about that section than you're suggesting (now if only my copy wasn't back at home) His argument with Siamorphe is what started the whole thing. The disagreement with her was so bad that she went and removed herself from the House of the Triad. Which is unrelated to Helm and Tyr. Basically, Siamorphe is a horrible bigot against commoners and Tyr wouldn't put up with it. Ergo, she fled to Suneland.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:57 AM	I think you're reading a great deal more into those statements than was what implied. I'm just reading what's there, which doesn't include anything about Helm attacking Tymora. Anyway, here's a complete quote. Siamorphe quarrels with Tyr when the deities take different sides in a clash between Tethyrian and Calimshite forces. She removes herself from the House of the Triad and joins Sune's court in Brightwater. Tyr sends Helm to plead his case with Sune. The goddess of love suggests a marriage between Tyr and Tymora to set the celestial planes in balance again. Helm conveys Sune's suggestion to Tyr, and begins to chaperone a chaste courtship between Tyr and Tymora. Strange and fateful misunderstandings lead to the accusation that Helm has stolen Tymora's heart while conveying the gifts and sentiments of Tyr. A strict interpretation of his own ideals forces Tyr to challenge Helm, and Helm is obliged by his own ideals to meet the challenge. The two gods do battle, and Tyr slays Helm before the deities come to their senses. Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad. Though nothing can be proved, the gods sense the hand of Cyric in Helm's death. - With the Triad broken because of Helm's death, Ilmater chooses to remove his domain from the House of the Triad. He reestablishes his celestial realm in Brightwater at Sune's invitation. Which is unrelated to Helm and Tyr. Basically, Siamorphe is a horrible bigot against commoners and Tyr wouldn't put up with it. Ergo, she fled to Suneland. Their argument was about a clash between Calimshan and Tethyr, so it likely had nothing to do with commoners.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 02:02 AM	Eh, okay it's stupid. But I still standby the Big Guy. ;-)
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 02:07 AM	Eh, okay it's stupid. But I still standby the Big Guy. ;-) :) Understandable. I don't care for his portrayal in this particular plotline, but I like him too (Well, except for being a pretty obvious Outlander. But that's not a personal knock against him). Which is why I'm hoping the guy leaves Faerun on his OWN terms, rather then meeting the same fate that Helm, Mystra, and several others have met. Poor bastard got shat on with this plotline, so it'd be nice to end his story on a highnote, beginning anew with a Procession of Justice on another world.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 02:15 AM	I'm now worried they're going to ruin Torm by making him Tyr-redux. There's a Tyr shaped hole in Toril and it can't be filled by Bahamut or any other deity. Same for Mystra.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 02:26 AM	I'm now worried they're going to ruin Torm by making him Tyr-redux. Believe me, I've been sweating bullets for a good long while, now, thinking the same thing. God, I hope I don't end up regretting opening my big mouth! ;) I've already imagined well over a dozen different scenarios in which Torm becoming the new God of Justice could be the most horrible thing to have ever happened to him (For instance, what if Torm not only inherited Tyr's Portfolio, but also his marriage to Tymora? :ahem: ). There's a Tyr shaped hole in Toril and it can't be filled by Bahamut or any other deity. Same for Mystra. I'm gonna miss Mystra more then anything else. As I've said before, Mystra is to the Realms what Superman is to DC Comics, or Spider-Man is to Marvel Comics. In short, she IS the Realms. It just isn't the same Realms without her. :(
Drew1369r 01-23-08, 06:12 AM	Torm and Bahamut will take the place of good in the realms. Mystra is dead, Illmater is to busy easing the suffering of the world do to the plague and lathander is an idiot.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-23-08, 09:42 AM	<snip> and lathander is an idiot. :rofl: I don't need to say anything on this thread, GK is covering ALL the bases. I'll just get a corner in the room and enjoy...:whatsthis
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 10:17 AM	So, who exactly is THE Realms God of Goodness and Snuggliness in your opinion? Who exactly do you think the novels and supplemental material should focus on as the Source of all that is holding the Horde of Orkiness and evil away to keep 'Civilization as we know itTM' from falling? I don't think any one god should be focused on like that. I've complained about how WotC seems fixated on Shar, so I'm not going to turn around and say they should fixate on a different deity (even one I might like more).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 10:20 AM	It'd be pretty appropriate for the God of Justice to pass judgment and carry out a sentence (in this case, banishment) on himself. Indeed. If Oedipus did it, so can he.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 10:25 AM	As for Tymora, why would she despise Tyr? He slew Helm. Well yeah, that's why. I don't see why Tymora would have appreciated the situation--two normally decent guys trying to kill each other over her (nor do I think this story makes sense anyway, but that's a whole different topic). If two friendly guys fought each other to the death over me for no good reason, I wouldn't exactly be proud of and happy with the "winner", whether or not he started it. No, I'd be pretty appalled at the whole thing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:23 AM	It depends how Cyric arranged it. Well remember, it doesn't state for a fact that Cyric was involved, only that he was suspected of being involved.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:24 AM	Torm certainly feels that Tyr's actions were just, however. Or he just didn't want to leave the plane he was comfortable in.
Kenzuki 01-23-08, 11:36 AM	I think Lathander should be reborn as a new Amaunator anyway so....;)
Yakman 01-23-08, 12:17 PM	There's no clear choice. Torm is sort of the god of justice and crusading. His triumph over Bane is the clear example here. Lathander is a little more ruthless--remember, he almost overthrew the Multi-Verse in order to remove evil from the world, and would do it again. But for real, true "Good", I'd have to pick Ilmater. He's the god of the downtrodden, the poor, the sick, the meek. He'll get kicked around, get beaten up, and not strike back. Until he decides to say "no." At which point, even Ao wouldn't be able to save a transgressor from his wrath.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:11 PM	But for real, true "Good", I'd have to pick Ilmater. He's the god of the downtrodden, the poor, the sick, the meek. He'll get kicked around, get beaten up, and not strike back. Until he decides to say "no." At which point, even Ao wouldn't be able to save a transgressor from his wrath. The important thing to remember here, is this. Ilmater's a Monk! Once he gets going, he's like Bruce Lee/Chuck Norris/Quai Chang Cain on crack! Hell, I can almost hear the theme song to Kung Fu in the background as I write this post. *clicks Submit Reply as visions of Ilmater roundhouse kicking half the Realms dances before his eyes*
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 01:15 PM	-One vote for Lathander.
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 01:17 PM	I picture This Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO9mMS_VJNU) playing, myself. I'm showing my age again. :embarrass -One vote for Lathander.I just don't trust "Mr. Sunshine"... not at all. He's always smiling... creeps me out.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 01:38 PM	Personally, I'm surprised by the animosity towards Lathander. I always felt that he was the nicest, most easy going, lovable guy around.....except when you're evil in which he's utterly going to burn you to ashes.
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 01:41 PM	-Yeah, that's how I see him. Apparently, there is a lot of evil, masquerading as good, in our midst...
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 01:45 PM	-Yeah, that's how I see him. Apparently, there is a lot of evil, masquerading as good, in our midst... Amaunator is the God that I use for "The Kingpriest of the Realms" and the Risen Sun heresy is the biggest 'Good as Evil' in the Realms in my games. Basically; they're arrogant, misogynistic, greedy, controlling, and every other ism you can find. Lathander is doing his best to break it but they're getting power from somewhere (Cyric in my games who thinks the bit of power he's losing is worth it) Edit: I love Bahamut, I do. I have priests of him. However, if Bahamut is going to Tyr's replacement, for "Big Old Guy in the Clouds" I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to accept even an old friend.
buzzard 01-23-08, 02:02 PM	Tyr/Torm for the victory :(
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:48 PM	Personally, I'm surprised by the animosity towards Lathander. I always felt that he was the nicest, most easy going, lovable guy around.....Thats how Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors described him... :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 02:58 PM	no offense but the universe DOES need a thorough cleansing. I vote for Mulhorandi first. ;-)
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:59 PM	How about we kill them ALL, and have NO gods in 4e FR? :eek: Wait... didn't Dragonlance already do that... :P
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 03:11 PM	Yep, it failed. All but Paladin and Takhasis came back.
Suin Bahhar 01-23-08, 04:05 PM	How about a new interloper or ascended greater god striking a deal with Ao to help restructure Justice and bolster the gods of good. Or the comeback of Auppenser, the rise of Moradin worship under nondwarfs, or the conquest of Horus-Re. Lathander is already hugely popular under the people of Fearun. If he teams up more with Ilmater he could learn some sense from him. The both are able to push the advancement of Fearuns society in the right direction.
Yakman 01-23-08, 04:30 PM	Lathander is already hugely popular under the people of Fearun. If he teams up more with Ilmater he could learn some sense from him. The both are able to push the advancement of Fearuns society in the right direction. Ilmater and Lathander are only natural allies in the face of adversity. In good times, they have little in common--Lathander is a god of youth, beauty, perfection, whereas Ilmater is a patron of the ugly, the old, the sick, and the weak. When Lathander's people come to power, they try to bend the world into their own image. When Ilmater's people come to power, they tend to stop being Ilmater's people... power is too corrupting.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 04:45 PM	both are able to push the advancement of Fearuns society in the right direction. Lathander's Neutral Good, while Ilmater's Lawful Good, so ultimately they have different views of what the 'right direction' is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 06:57 PM	Personally, I'm surprised by the animosity towards Lathander. I always felt that he was the nicest, most easy going, lovable guy around.....except when you're evil in which he's utterly going to burn you to ashes. I agree with that assessment...but that doesn't mean I think he should be focused on in the manner that the first post in this thread suggests.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 06:58 PM	-One vote for Lathander. You're promoting a god other than yourself?:confused:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-23-08, 07:52 PM	You're promoting a god other than yourself?:confused: :gah: Rino got you there LK.:P Does this mean tha I should be Ody Saraph of Lathander ?!?!?
Khaelieth 01-23-08, 07:54 PM	Don't like any of them, but Marduk/Bahamut's kinda cool, as he's Untherite.
Suin Bahhar 01-23-08, 08:06 PM	A risen Lathander that merged with a High Sun aspect could change from NG to LG. He could add highsun in addition to dawn and dusk to have a more fixed serie of portfolio becoming more LN in the proces. If they change Mulhorand strongly Lathander could also have absorbed Horus-Re in a diety clash, getting a more strict (Maat influenced) view.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 08:17 PM	A risen Lathander that merged with a High Sun aspect could change from NG to LG. He could add highsun in addition to dawn and dusk to have a more fixed serie of portfolio becoming more LN in the proces. If they change Mulhorand strongly Lathander could also have absorbed Horus-Re in a diety clash, getting a more strict (Maat influenced) view. Err... what? Anyway, if he changes alignment, then Chauntea is the only NG Greater God left. It's better to have a proactive Greater God for every version of good (Lawful = Torm, Neutral = Lathander, and Chaotic = Selune), rather then Neutral Good getting shortchanged in favor of... whatever alignment Lathander ends up landing on once all of that happens. :ahem: Just my opinion, of course.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 08:43 PM	(Lawful = Torm, Neutral = Lathander, and Chaotic = Selune)... And Sune.;)
Kenzuki 01-23-08, 09:10 PM	Does Sune actually do anything useful against the forces of evil though? Well, other than insult their sense of fashion that is? "Honestly Bane, that armor is like sooooo 1372."
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 09:15 PM	Yeah, yeah. :P Is Sune actively working to kick evil's ass, though? That never seemed to be the case, to me. Anyway, the point I was making is that I'd like to have a LG Greater God who's actively opposing evil, looking to destroy it wherever it's found. A NG Greater God actively opposing evil, looking to destroy it wherever it's found. And a CG Greater God actively opposing evil, looking to destroy it wherever it's found. Rather then have "one greater good", have three greater goods, with three different takes on the what they consider to be good. That, IMO, would be great. I don't think any one god should be focused on like that. I've complained about how WotC seems fixated on Shar, so I'm not going to turn around and say they should fixate on a different deity (even one I might like more). That's pretty much what I mean. :)
Kenzuki 01-23-08, 09:19 PM	"Not the face, anywhere but the face!" - Brave Sir Robin, the Sunite Paladin before getting beat up by the Blackguard of Bane.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:05 AM	You're promoting a god other than yourself?:confused: -I wasn't involved in the voting. It's "Torm vs. Mystra vs. Tyr vs. Lathander vs. Ilmater", not "Torm vs. Mystra vs. Tyr vs. Lathander vs. Ilmater vs. Karsus". If I was, though, you'd know I'd be running away with the victory.
Meldread 01-24-08, 12:36 AM	Lathander and Ilmater win in the goodness department. I actually would have preferred things had Ilmater and Torm joined under Lathander to form a new Triad. Lathander can easily swing toward LG, and all three compliment each other rather well. Tyr was just... blah. I never liked him much. He was a one portfolio wonder with no real personality. Mystra couldn't be "good" because of the constraints put on her, so she doesn't count either. Mystra wanted to be good without any real way to actually... you know... be good.
GreenKnight 01-24-08, 12:41 AM	Whoops. Wrong thread.
Charles Phipps 01-24-08, 01:03 AM	Lathander's entire personality is the opposite of Lawful Good. He's a Laid Back God by nature and pretty much an Apollo analogue. It's why the Risen Sun is so :censored: up. It's like all of his followers that couldn't stand the idea their god wasn't "crush, kill destroy evil and dominate the masses" got together.
Meldread 01-24-08, 02:11 AM	Yes, Lathander is a bit laid back and overly chipper, but the fact remains he is still pretty much a big 'smite evil' deity. After all, that's what the whole Dawn Cataclysm was about. He was trying to instill himself as head of the Faerunian Pantheon, and pwn the evil deities. It flopped because of Shar. That is why I think Torm compliments him. Lathander is more of an idea guy, while Torm is a do-er. Lathander says, "Hey Torm, we need to wipe out evil." And Torm says, "Light the way, and I'll begin the Holy Crusade." And Ilmater says, "I'll weep and suffer with those who are hurt in the difficult times ahead." Let's face it. Torm is a follower, not a leader. Lathander is a leader, not a follower. Ilmater just cries. :P
MarkusTay63 01-24-08, 02:54 AM	All but Paladin and Takhasis came back.Ahhhhh.... thats why FR has them now (Bahamut & Tiamet). :D They got kicked out of the last place they used to hang at. :P I can'yt wait to see the trio of super-modules that come out dealing with all of this - My Twitching Helm Leaving so Sune? To Spare Tyr... :P :dancin:
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 07:31 AM	Lathander's entire personality is the opposite of Lawful Good. He's a Laid Back God by nature and pretty much an Apollo analogue. It's why the Risen Sun is so :censored: up. It's like all of his followers that couldn't stand the idea their god wasn't "crush, kill destroy evil and dominate the masses" got together. Don't you find it funny that Lathander is considered a "young" deity and that he appeared shortly after Amaunator died off? Also why does he have the Dawn portfolio but not the Sun one? Couldn't he have just claimed it? No....because he has a path to complete. The Rebirth of the Sunlord is near.... Then someone else will have to claim Dusk.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 08:42 AM	-Lathander will be reborn as the Lord of Highsun over my dead body! Down with the Risen Sun Heresy!
18DELTA 01-24-08, 11:41 AM	-I see him being reborn as Lathander the Burning Hate!!! Down with the Sun Gods because they are not fun Gods!!!;) :P :D 18DELTA:D
MaskedOne 01-24-08, 12:31 PM	-Lathander will be reborn as the Lord of Highsun over my dead body! Down with the Risen Sun Heresy! Ehmm, that criteria is already met Momentary One. I will be somewhat less than amused if you invite Lathander or Amaunator to arrange How the Mighty are Fallen part 2. I have plans regarding the sun god. Pick a fight with him after I cripple Shar and execute Cyric.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 12:34 PM	Yeah, yeah. :P Is Sune actively working to kick evil's ass, though? That never seemed to be the case, to me. Well, aren't there paladins of Sune? I generally assume that any good deity (especially one of the Greater Powers) actively fights evil. Just because Sune hasn't been showcased in print as much as some other deities doesn't mean she doesn't DO anything. And of course, I don't think novels always do justice to the gods anyway--see the Church of Selune in Road of the Patriach, complete with rapist-priests and indulgences.:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 12:35 PM	-I wasn't involved in the voting. It's "Torm vs. Mystra vs. Tyr vs. Lathander vs. Ilmater", not "Torm vs. Mystra vs. Tyr vs. Lathander vs. Ilmater vs. Karsus". If I was, though, you'd know I'd be running away with the victory. You can be a dark horse candidate.:)
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:41 PM	You can be a dark horse candidate.:) -In that case, then, I vote for myself. :)
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 05:10 PM	Well, aren't there paladins of Sune? I generally assume that any good deity (especially one of the Greater Powers) actively fights evil. Just because Sune hasn't been showcased in print as much as some other deities doesn't mean she doesn't DO anything. And of course, I don't think novels always do justice to the gods anyway--see the Church of Selune in Road of the Patriach, complete with rapist-priests and indulgences.:rolleyes: I don't think that's unreal. I'm sure every church has some corrupt people in it and you've said yourself that Faerun has a radically different moral view than we do when it comes to sex and stuff. Besides, they didn't rape the women they gave them stuff in turn. So at the worst it's whoring out. Though Artemis DID say that Selune was a good god and that she'd have no part with what's his name. His real dad. I thought the whole book was believable and showcased Artemis' disdain for the divine really well. I especially like that part where he said "Better to serve Lady Lolth, she's honest about her evil" or something like that.;) Considering the high priest wanted a paper on Ibrandul I kinda wonder if Shar didn't have a hand in it. Oh yeah and I'de like to add that if I were evil I'de have a hard time taking a Sunite paladin seriously. They're lovers not fighters.
GreenKnight 01-24-08, 05:17 PM	I generally assume that any good deity (especially one of the Greater Powers) actively fights evil. I don't think that's necessarily the case, at least when it comes to Sune and Chauntea. Mostly because of their Portfolios and their spheres of influence. They're not really the "combat evil wherever it's found" type. They're good, sure, but they're more about promoting good then they are about combating evil.
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 05:23 PM	I just remember how a certain Sunite Cleric named Adon acted hehe... Sune's followers always struck me as dandies and pretty boys/girls to me. I mean they don't even accept you into the clergy unless you're absolutely beautiful and don't they kick you out if you get marred somehow? Sounds kinda shallow to me Sune dear.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 05:39 PM	I don't think that's unreal. I'm sure every church has some corrupt people in it and you've said yourself that Faerun has a radically different moral view than we do when it comes to sex and stuff. Besides, they didn't rape the women they gave them stuff in turn. So at the worst it's whoring out. Though Artemis DID say that Selune was a good god and that she'd have no part with what's his name. His real dad. I thought the whole book was believable and showcased Artemis' disdain for the divine really well. I especially like that part where he said "Better to serve Lady Lolth, she's honest about her evil" or something like that.;) Considering the high priest wanted a paper on Ibrandul I kinda wonder if Shar didn't have a hand in it. Oh yeah and I'de like to add that if I were evil I'de have a hard time taking a Sunite paladin seriously. They're lovers not fighters. -It's not believable in the Realms. In the actual world, it makes plenty of sense. The sale of indulgencies, clergymen gratifying their sexual urges with the more vulnerable members of their following. In the Realms? No. Asides for the fact that indulgences is something that is not something that happens in the Realms, the priest in question was obviously evil, and what was an obviously evil priest doing leading the flock of the benevolent Selūne, in a fairly large district? A backwater, nowhere town, I could understand. But, a large city, such as Memnon? No.
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 05:44 PM	-It's not believable in the Realms. In the actual world, it makes plenty of sense. The sale of indulgencies, clergymen gratifying their sexual urges with the more vulnerable members of their following. In the Realms? No. Asides for the fact that indulgences is something that is not something that happens in the Realms, the priest in question was obviously evil, and what was an obviously evil priest doing leading the flock of the benevolent Selūne, in a fairly large district? A backwater, nowhere town, I could understand. But, a large city, such as Memnon? No. Well apparantly it happened. Disagree with it all you want. I find it believable. Unless Selune is actively insuring that none of her flock is corrupt or anything. I'm sure Sharran and Sunite priestesses engage in some form of divine prostitution too.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 05:50 PM	Well apparantly it happened. Disagree with it all you want. -I disagree with 90% of the crap* that Salvatore pulls. Unless Selune is actively insuring that none of her flock is corrupt or anything. -Why would she be granting spells to an evil individual, who is using his position as a high priest to benefit himself? That besmirtches her name, and the name of her entire church. And, if she isn't granting said individual spells, why does she allow him to lead her church in Memnon? And, if she has problems with him leading her church, why hasn't she instructed an actual follower to remove him, by whatever means necessary? -Simply put, it was a quasipolitical statement that, when looked at in context, doesn't fit. *And by crap, I mean the 'controversial' things that don't exactly mesh with established Realmslore that is caused when he writes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 06:09 PM	I don't think that's unreal. I'm sure every church has some corrupt people in it and you've said yourself that Faerun has a radically different moral view than we do when it comes to sex and stuff. Besides, they didn't rape the women they gave them stuff in turn. Uh, many of those girls were really young--children, even. And they didn't "give them stuff" in return, either (you mean the rotten, maggot covered food?). The priests were all about deceit. Even Ed Greenwood said that sex with children is considered unacceptable in the Realms. Believe what you want about the point RAS was trying to make, but don't bend over backward to defend characters who were supposed to be malignant.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 06:12 PM	I thought the whole book was believable and showcased Artemis' disdain for the divine really well. I especially like that part where he said "Better to serve Lady Lolth, she's honest about her evil" or something like that.;) I don't agree, because the point was essentially being made with a strawman--the Church of Selune isn't supposed to be evil, period.
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 06:44 PM	I thought the girls were around 13-14 which isn't really a child in the context of that world. Hell, my grandmother was married at 14. I'm not saying it was right. It was personally disgusting and degrading which is what I think he was shooting for. I'm just saying you can't say "Well that would never happen! Selune is perfect and blah blah" Because she's not perfect and I never saw those priests cast spells. And like I said what if Shar was behind it?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 07:45 PM	I'm not saying it was right. It was personally disgusting and degrading which is what I think he was shooting for. I'm just saying you can't say "Well that would never happen! Selune is perfect and blah blah" Because she's not perfect and I never saw those priests cast spells. And like I said what if Shar was behind it? If I recall correctly, the gods do know the hearts of their followers, though. Also, what surprised me was that the issue of a CG goddess such as Selune having such evil priests was barely even brought up in the book, if at all. So to me, it was as if the novel was unaware of how religion in the Realms really works. If you liked the way RAS wrote the book, that's perfectly fine. But the Memnon plot strained my sense of disbelief, and came off as way too real-worldish.
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 08:03 PM	From what Artemis actually told the priests it sounded like to me that Selune wouldn't be too pleased. Didn't he say something to the effect of "Selune is a goodly god, so I've heard, and thus will have nothing to do with the likes of you. I call you a fraud, and there is nowhere left for you to hide." I'm more lax with something like this, as it was a good story to me.
Charles Phipps 01-24-08, 08:05 PM	I don't agree, because the point was essentially being made with a strawman--the Church of Selune isn't supposed to be evil, period. My assumption was that they were heretics. I love the Heretic Feat, really, because it finally frees us from the usual constraints. Of course, I favor a Clergy that is 90% not spellcasters anyway. I just considered the monastery a place of hypocrisy and evil.... Like most of Memnon.
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 08:31 PM	My assumption was that they were heretics. I love the Heretic Feat, really, because it finally frees us from the usual constraints. Of course, I favor a Clergy that is 90% not spellcasters anyway. I just considered the monastery a place of hypocrisy and evil.... Like most of Memnon. That's what my take was too. The whole thing about Ibrandul also made me suspect something. Because Shar killed Ibrandul and took his power for her own.
Meldread 01-25-08, 01:14 AM	My assumption was that they were heretics. I love the Heretic Feat, really, because it finally frees us from the usual constraints. Of course, I favor a Clergy that is 90% not spellcasters anyway. I just considered the monastery a place of hypocrisy and evil.... Like most of Memnon. I am also a huge fan of the Heretic Feat. I love it. I also favor clergy that is mostly non-spellcaster! :P
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 01:18 AM	Besides, really, the problem was the little girl didn't respect the POEM he was going to write because of it! But yes, subtle isn't in R.A. Salvatore's vocabulary is it?
Kenzuki 01-25-08, 10:19 PM	I've found evidence that this whole Selune thing could infact have happened. 1. The Feat: Heretic of the Faith from Power of Faerun. 2. The Cult of Shared Suffering. It's a group of Ilmater followers who have a radical view of suffering that I would see skirting on the evil side of the spectram.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:51 AM	-That still doesn't fix the secular, political side of all of the problem. So, Selūne didn't "message" anybody to end his nonsense, and stop smearing her own name, and the name of her church...Why? Many a decade passed since Entreri's flashbacks and when he actually returned to Memnon.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:49 AM	The clergy was only Selunite in name, or maybe they were once Selunite but were corrupted from their former ways by clerics of Ibrandul (or Shar). Also, there might be true clerics of Selune within the organization, but the higher-up's are obviously heretics and most of the true believers are probably too weak to detect or stop it. As for Selune, I think Entreti's little entrance might have been her "divine intervention.";)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 10:25 AM	The clergy was only Selunite in name, or maybe they were once Selunite but were corrupted from their former ways by clerics of Ibrandul (or Shar). Also, there might be true clerics of Selune within the organization, but the higher-up's are obviously heretics and most of the true believers are probably too weak to detect or stop it. -That doesn't explain secular, political side of the problems, and why Selūne did not do anything about heretics and/or fakes smearing her name and the name of her church in Memnon. During the Medieval/Renaissance age, when you have schisms, heretics, the whole nine yards, there was mobilization of whomever. Inquisitors, soldiers to "show" them the true path, whatever. Selūne seemingly allowed this to go on for decades. It just doesn't reconsile very good with the Realms, and it's bad lore, pure and simple.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 10:27 AM	-That doesn't explain secular, political side of the problems, and why Selūne did not do anything about heretics and/or fakes smearing her name and the name of her church in Memnon. During the Medieval/Renaissance age, when you have schisms, heretics, the whole nine yards, there was mobilization of whomever. Inquisitors, soldiers to "show" them the true path, whatever. Selūne seemingly allowed this to go on for decades. It just doesn't reconsile very good with the Realms, and it's bad lore, pure and simple. Well, in defense of RAS and Road of the Patriarch (which I enjoyed greatly), I think you are only looking at the good and not the chaotic in Selune's alignment;)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 10:35 AM	Well, in defense of RAS and Road of the Patriarch (which I enjoyed greatly), I think you are only looking at the good and not the chaotic in Selune's alignment;) -Selling fake indulgences and whoring little girls certainly is chaotic, but the Clergy is generally 'chaotic' and 'good'.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 11:51 AM	-Selling fake indulgences and whoring little girls certainly is chaotic, but the Clergy is generally 'chaotic' and 'good'. That was not what I was refering to oh great and venerable Lord Karsus:rolleyes: I am saying that a chaotic deity may not maintain a standing inquisition due to their free doctrine and their will to let their followers choose their own paths (though they do deal with heresy in more subtle ways, who is not to say the hand of Selune was not behind Entreti?);)
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 02:43 PM	That was not what I was refering to oh great and venerable Lord Karsus:rolleyes: I am saying that a chaotic deity may not maintain a standing inquisition due to their free doctrine and their will to let their followers choose their own paths (though they do deal with heresy in more subtle ways, who is not to say the hand of Selune was not behind Entreti?);) I'm sure it was on her list of stuff to take care of. You know, after stopping the latest 93 of Shar's latest plots to destroy the world. :D
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:04 PM	I am saying that a chaotic deity may not maintain a standing inquisition due to their free doctrine and their will to let their followers choose their own paths (though they do deal with heresy in more subtle ways, who is not to say the hand of Selune was not behind Entreti?);) -I didn't mean a literal 'Inquisition'. I was just using that as an example. -That Entreri could have been Selūne's way of dealing with the fallen priest is an interesting way at looking at things, but why allow it to go on some fourty-odd years? I'm sure it was on her list of stuff to take care of. You know, after stopping the latest 93 of Shar's latest plots to destroy the world. :D -Nope. This was before 1372 DR. Shar didn't plot back then! :P
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 06:16 PM	-That Entreri could have been Selūne's way of dealing with the fallen priest is an interesting way at looking at things, but why allow it to go on some fourty-odd years? It really depends on how you view the gods and how active they may be. Selune might well have sent signs, portents, or even had them excommunicated from the Church but the fact is that it's Calisham. No one is going to stop you if you set up a Lawful Good Church of Bane. The only option is a Selunite burning the place to the ground. Which she might have hesitated to do.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:21 PM	-I didn't mean a literal 'Inquisition'. I was just using that as an example. -That Entreri could have been Selūne's way of dealing with the fallen priest is an interesting way at looking at things, but why allow it to go on some fourty-odd years? Jus think about it, why did Entreti let the church live and truely follow the doctrines of Selune instead of just burning it to the ground;) . The ways of chaotic deities are not meant to be understood by mortal men (or insane archmages that think themselves god:D ).
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:30 PM	The only option is a Selunite burning the place to the ground. -How so? When a plant is dying, you just prune off the branches that are dead, not rip the entire thing out of the soil. It appears that there were only a few bad eggs leading the Memnonese branch of the church. Removing said bad eggs would presumably solve the problem. Jus think about it, why did Entreti let the church live and truely follow the doctrines of Selune instead of just burning it to the ground;) . -Because he has nothing specific against the Church of Selūne, or the innocent priests who have done no wrong, or have not wronged him? He just had a problem with the high priest, who may or may not have been his actual father. I know if I had a problem with a particular person, I'd make sure it stayed between me and him/her, and not between us and his/her coworkers, family, and so on. The ways of chaotic deities are not meant to be understood by mortal men (or insane archmages that think themselves god:D ). -Good thing I don't fit in either of those categories. I was a deity. They even interviewed KtM for Powers and Pantheons. :)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:39 PM	-Because he has nothing specific against the Church of Selūne, or the innocent priests who have done no wrong, or have not wronged him? He just had a problem with the high priest, who may or may not have been his actual father. I know if I had a problem with a particular person, I'd make sure it stayed between me and him/her, and not between us and his/her coworkers, family, and so on. 1. Entreti is evil 2. Entreti likes making rather dangerous points 3. Entreti DESPISES clerics Point made?;)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:47 PM	1. Entreti is evil -Evil isn't stupid, however. By 'burning down the house', he's made needless enemies in the Church of Selūne. 2. Entreti likes making rather dangerous points -That he does. However, he stands more of a change axing that one particular guy, instead of every single priest/priestess/acolyte/layman/laywoman in the complex. 3. Entreti DESPISES clerics -See points 1 and 2. :P
Khaelieth 01-26-08, 06:51 PM	And there's no money in it for him! He's a sell-sword, not some lawful stupid crusader!
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 06:53 PM	And there's no money in it for him! He's a sell-sword, not some lawful stupid crusader! When it comes to Artemis Entreri, sure, that's true. But who knows WHAT this 'Entreti' character is capable of. :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:56 PM	-Evil isn't stupid, however. By 'burning down the house', he's made needless enemies in the Church of Selūne. You only prove my point, since Selune compels him, he would not do such a thing. If she didn't, well...nobody like heretics (except for my lovable self of course).:P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:57 PM	-Evil isn't stupid, Cyric says Au Contraire.;)
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 06:58 PM	-How so? When a plant is dying, you just prune off the branches that are dead, not rip the entire thing out of the soil. It appears that there were only a few bad eggs leading the Memnonese branch of the church. Removing said bad eggs would presumably solve the problem. Maybe, it depends on who holds the power here. Does Selune's clergy even have an organized heirarchy or is it more like Protestant Christianity where you can pretty much open your own church and declare yourself the head of it with no certification? The problems of Chaotic Good. Of course, my opinions on the gods are varied from canon. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=981911&page=4
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:00 PM	You only prove my point, since Selune compels him, he would not do such a thing. -Yes, I agree that that is an interesting theory on things. I don't necessarily think there's very much substance behind it, but it works. I could see Hoar doing something like that- having the love child of a peasant he abused long ago come back to be his bane. Poetic justice. Cyric says Au Contraire.;) -Well, he's not stupid. He's just insane. :)
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 07:03 PM	-Well, he's not stupid. He's just insane. :) Cyric's got a little from Column A, a little from Column B, I'd say. :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:03 PM	-Yes, I agree that that is an interesting theory on things. I don't necessarily think there's very much substance behind it, but it works. I could see Hoar doing something like that- having the love child of a peasant he abused long ago come back to be his bane. Poetic justice. CN is just one step beneath CG, and Selune is just a chaotic old bat that needs some way to pass time.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:05 PM	Maybe, it depends on who holds the power here. Does Selune's clergy even have an organized heirarchy or is it more like Protestant Christianity where you can pretty much open your own church and declare yourself the head of it with no certification? The problems of Chaotic Good. -Faiths and Avatars specifically says in Selūne's entry that, regarding her different churches, "all cooperate". That's not a definite ruling into how centralized or decentralized her overall church is, as one can read into it either way, I think. But, if there is interaction between her various chuches, why hasn't, in fourtysomething years, another priest said something? -I've come to realize that I don't like this particular plot not because it is 100% inplausible, but because it requires too much of a suspension of belief, based on what I (and we) know of the Realms.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:06 PM	Cyric's got a little from Column A, a little from Column B, I'd say. :P -Hey, in the end, he outsmarted both deities and mortals, procuring the Tablets of Fate, slaying deities, and all that stuff.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:09 PM	-Hey, in the end, he outsmarted both deities and mortals, procuring the Tablets of Fate, slaying deities, and all that stuff. Either that or Tymora must have been extremely fond of him when he was a wee lil' babe.
GothicDan 01-26-08, 07:14 PM	No fixation on any gods, please. They all deserve some of the spotlight. Now, I have a cocktail party to host.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:19 PM	Now, I have a cocktail party to host. -Yay, Dan is back, albeit for like ten seconds. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:44 PM	Jus think about it, why did Entreti let the church live and truely follow the doctrines of Selune instead of just burning it to the ground;) . Actually, didn't the Church wind up being burned to the ground? Of course, my memory could be faulty... I also would like to remind everyone that this is supposed to be a major temple to Selune. And yet, how it's presented in the book hardly reflects that (remember the stuff I mentioned in the other thread, like how all the priests were male, and they believe in the separation of the mind and body when concerning spiritual matters?).
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:48 PM	-Like I said, this particular plot isn't 100% inplausible, but in this case, with the specifics we have, it requires too much of a suspension of belief for my tastes.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:49 PM	If it was actually a major temple to Selune, then Entreri woudn't have been able to trash it so easily. Also, it may once have been, but once it got exposed to Ibrandul (Shar)'s heresy, it fell into corruption and lost power.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 08:53 PM	Please people, like Entreri couldn't trash a major temple? ;-)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:00 PM	Please people, like Entreri couldn't trash a major temple? ;-) -Depends. Every bartender in the Realms is a (Wizard 20 / Fighter 5 / Ranger 5), so...:D
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:02 PM	-Depends. Every bartender in the Realms is a (Wizard 20 / Fighter 5 / Ranger 5), so...:D Ahh, the temple of Dionysis must be pretty well protected then.
Kenzuki 01-26-08, 09:07 PM	This is my theory. I don't profess to be a Realmslore master or anything (my specialty is the Warcraft Universe) so I could be wrong. I just finished reading Road of the Patriarch and here is what I got to support why I think this could have happened. 1. The Feat: Heretic of the Faith. This feat from Powers of Faerun allows a cleric to grossly violate the deity's code of conduct and still get spells and advance in levels. It also allows you to be TWO steps away from the deity's alignment instead of one. So Selune is Chaotic Good and she can have clerics of these alignments. Chaotic Good Chaotic Neutral Neutral Good Now if you took TWO steps away couldn't you get some sort of evil alignment out of that? 2. My second point is the listing of TWO heretic sects that are already around that are pretty damn close to evil if they aren't already. Cult of Shared Suffering: These followers of Ilmater take the Suffering portfolio of their deity to the extream. They are noted for self-flagelation, kidnappings, inciting riots,and passing the suffering around to nonbelievers. Dark Moon Heresy: These heretics teach that Selune and Shar are one and the same. Now why doesn't Ilmater or Selune stamp out these heretics who are ruining their good names? One last point to make here, as was mentioned Entreri COULD have been the weapon by which Selune punished these clerics. His mother DID appear to be a true Selune worshipper so it seemed. As for the time it took, what is time to a god? I thought you all believed that gods should interfer LESS with the world directly? To me this scenario could happen. Now I may be wrong but that's just how I look at it myself. Peace.:D Edit: Oh yes, he did let some clerics go and told them they could repair them Temple providing they cleaned up their act. He said he would be back to check up on them and if they didn't he would throw the guy he was talking to off the cliff.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:17 PM	-Like I said, this particular plot isn't 100% inplausible, but in this case, with the specifics we have, it requires too much of a suspension of belief for my tastes. Yeah, that's pretty much my own opinion about the whole thing. The plot makes sense only with mental gymnastics that I don't care to perform.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:19 PM	If it was actually a major temple to Selune, then Entreri woudn't have been able to trash it so easily. I recall it did get trashed. As to that being unbelievable...well, that would be just one more unbelievable part of an unbelievable whole.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:19 PM	The plot makes sense only with mental gymnastics that I don't care to perform. -Heh, look at Kenzuki's post above for an example of said mental gymnastics. :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:21 PM	-Heh, look at Kenzuki's post above for an example of said mental gymnastics. :P It's final, Kenzuki takes the Gold by default.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:25 PM	-He put so much effort into it, I think he only deserves it.
Kenzuki 01-26-08, 09:31 PM	Awe, now you're just making fun of me. I had it all worked out in my head too.:weep:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:32 PM	Awe, now you're just making fun of me. I had it all worked out in my head too.:weep: Ha ha! :heehee
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:55 PM	Awe, now you're just making fun of me. I had it all worked out in my head too.:weep: -Not really. You do deserve the proverbial medal for working all of that out. The counter point to all of that, though, is that something should not take 'mental gymnastics' to be plausible. That doesn't discount what you said, though.
Kenzuki 01-26-08, 10:01 PM	I know guys I'm just joshing ya. Like I said that's just how it makes sense in my limited mind. I did like reading how Entreri went back to his home town and took out the trash though. I hope Salvator writes more about both Entreri and Jarlaxle. Maybe he can finally write that novel about Jarlaxle and Zaknafien he's hinted at.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 09:47 AM	I know guys I'm just joshing ya. Like I said that's just how it makes sense in my limited mind. I did like reading how Entreri went back to his home town and took out the trash though. I hope Salvator writes more about both Entreri and Jarlaxle. Maybe he can finally write that novel about Jarlaxle and Zaknafien he's hinted at. I loved that book too, and yeah, Entreri and Jarlaxle are far more interesting and complex characters than a certain overemotional drow ranger who I will not mention here and now and I hope Bob does more with them. Who knows. Maybe the next book in the Transitions series is about one of them or maybe both.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 03:55 PM	I loved that book too, and yeah, Entreri and Jarlaxle are far more interesting and complex characters than a certain overemotional drow ranger who I will not mention here and now and I hope Bob does more with them. Who knows. Maybe the next book in the Transitions series is about one of them or maybe both. I thought that series was all about Drizzt?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-27-08, 07:29 PM	I thought that series was all about Drizzt? I think it IS about Drizzt.
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 10:56 PM	I think it IS about Drizzt. Isn't everything about Drizzt?
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:43 PM	-No, it's about your momma... :shifty: :P
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 11:51 PM	:shifty: *looks over shoulder* Artemis is a girl's name. *runs*
XHereticX 01-28-08, 09:08 AM	I thought that series was all about Drizzt? I don't think so, I think that it is a transition phase for the RAS saga to 4E. Consitering that at the end of the Orc King it seemed like a conclusion to a story rather than one that leads to the next novel. Even if it is all about Drizzt, I'm predicting that Jarlaxle and Entreri will show up more than once.
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 09:42 AM	:shifty: *looks over shoulder* Artemis is a girl's name. *runs* My name is Leslie, some would argue that that is a girl's name too.
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 10:11 AM	I don't think so, I think that it is a transition phase for the RAS saga to 4E. Consitering that at the end of the Orc King it seemed like a conclusion to a story rather than one that leads to the next novel. Even if it is all about Drizzt, I'm predicting that Jarlaxle and Entreri will show up more than once. -If that's the case, then who do you think gets novels II and III? Entreri in one novel, and Jarlaxle in the other? Entreri and Jarlaxle in one, and Cadderly & Co. in the other?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-28-08, 10:27 AM	My name is Leslie, some would argue that that is a girl's name too. Back home it is! :P One of my players back home is called is a guy called Ariel and has a (really REALLY HOT) twin sister named Coral, so when Im in the mood to **** him off I just sing the "little mermaid" theme song :D
XHereticX 01-28-08, 10:31 AM	-If that's the case, then who do you think gets novels II and III? Entreri in one novel, and Jarlaxle in the other? Entreri and Jarlaxle in one, and Cadderly & Co. in the other? I'd go with the latter.
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 10:35 AM	Back home it is! :P One of my players back home is called is a guy called Ariel and has a (really REALLY HOT) twin sister named Coral, so when Im in the mood to **** him off I just sing the "little mermaid" theme song :D -Ariel is a guy's name. It' means 'Lion of G-d'. I'd go with the latter. -You think he'd "resurrect" Cadderly & Co., after ignoring them for so long?
XHereticX 01-28-08, 10:38 AM	- -You think he'd "resurrect" Cadderly & Co., after ignoring them for so long? Hmm, I actually haven't read the Cleric Quintet series before, so I woudn't know. I don't think they will be the main characters in a novel they are featured in, but they certainly will make appearances. Maybe this could be RAS's way of introducing a new character to his saga.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-28-08, 10:41 AM	-Ariel is a guy's name. It' means 'Lion of G-d'. -You think he'd "resurrect" Cadderly & Co., after ignoring them for so long? True, true but that does not take away my fun of singing "the little mermaid" theme song :D
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 10:43 AM	The Little Mermaid is my favorite Disney movie....:)
XHereticX 01-28-08, 10:46 AM	I hate Disney, period.
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 10:48 AM	Hmm, I actually haven't read the Cleric Quintet series before, so I woudn't know. I don't think they will be the main characters in a novel they are featured in, but they certainly will make appearances. Maybe this could be RAS's way of introducing a new character to his saga. -That's pretty much what's become of them. They've become characters that don't have their own novels, and simply make appearances in other novels (Cadderly in Servant of the Shard, Ivan and Pikel in The Hunter's Blade Trilogy, etc.) The Little Mermaid is my favorite Disney movie....:) -Alladin and/or Hercules, FTW!
XHereticX 01-28-08, 10:49 AM	Though I did like Disneyworld.:D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-28-08, 10:56 AM	LIon King! baby!
Khaelieth 01-28-08, 12:50 PM	Sword In The Stone ftw!
XHereticX 01-28-08, 03:51 PM	Wait, I did like the Disney adaption of The Black Cauldron.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 07:54 PM	Isn't everything about Drizzt? Heh, yeah...:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 07:57 PM	Wait, I did like the Disney adaption of The Black Cauldron.:) Me too.:D I found the Cadderly novels to be pretty annoying.
Kenzuki 01-29-08, 08:00 PM	My favorites are. Little Mermaid (I got teased alot growing up for liking this.) Alladin Sword & the Stone Lion King Beauty & the Beast Black Cauldron Hercules Heck, Disney used to make good stuff. Now it's all CGI stuff. I wish they would make one like they used to. Great actors, great songs, etc.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 08:53 PM	-I wouldn't mind Disney making that mythical Forgotten Realms movie...
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 08:57 PM	For me, I'm one of the few guys who doesn't want a Live Action Forgotten Realms. For me, I want a bunch of animated features like Marvel keeps putting out. It's a pity they'd probably be based on Drizzt and not Kyriani plus the other comics characters! ;-)
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 09:10 PM	For me, I'm one of the few guys who doesn't want a Live Action Forgotten Realms. For me, I want a bunch of animated features like Marvel keeps putting out. -We stand side-by-side in agreement. It's a pity they'd probably be based on Drizzt and not Kyriani plus the other comics characters! ;-) -Probably. I'd want the first movie to be somehow Drizzt-related, as at least that will make it a decent seller. And, as Marvel has demonstrated, if it sells well, make more. At this point, I'd like to see things diverge to other characters, or even better yet, original storylines and original characters.
MarkusTay63 01-30-08, 11:49 AM	And then we'd all argue over weather the animated features should be canon or not. :P Hercules rocked! That was by far the BESTEST Disney Movie EVA! :dancin: James Woods doing the Voice-over for Hades? Brilliant! Despite the fact that Disney got the mythology completely wrong, that movie was very enjoyable. :D Disneyland sucked - Universal Studioes FTW!!! And this is the REAL Ariel - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Parielpic.jpg http://www.thundarr.com/images/7.jpg She was the VERY FIRST cartoon-hotty. :love:
Lord Karsus 01-30-08, 12:06 PM	Disneyland sucked - Universal Studioes FTW!!! -It's true, it's true.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 01:37 PM	And then we'd all argue over weather the animated features should be canon or not. :P Hercules rocked! That was by far the BESTEST Disney Movie EVA! :dancin: James Woods doing the Voice-over for Hades? Brilliant! Despite the fact that Disney got the mythology completely wrong, that movie was very enjoyable. :D Disneyland sucked - Universal Studioes FTW!!! And this is the REAL Ariel - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Parielpic.jpg http://www.thundarr.com/images/7.jpg She was the VERY FIRST cartoon-hotty. :love: And Bobcat was it in too! So was Danny DeVito. Hell, Hercules just rocked period!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 03:35 PM	I love Disneyworld AND Universal Studios.:)
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:08 AM	-I wouldn't mind Disney making that mythical Forgotten Realms movie... :eek: :eek: :eek: Please...no... Though Peter Jackson is welcome to try any time he wants:D
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 08:21 AM	Yes, the guy who made the Frighteners. :-) (reminds me of a skit from a movie. "George Lucas is interested." "The guy who did Howard the Duck." "errr...yes. And Star Wars." )
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:24 AM	Hahaha, bringing back their shrouded past are you not???:P
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 01:48 PM	:eek: :eek: :eek: Please...no... -Given the success of the more 'fantastical' Disney movies (Alladin, Hercules, Mulan, Pocahantas), coupled with the talent that Disney employs, I'd go for it.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 01:57 PM	-Given the success of the more 'fantastical' Disney movies (Alladin, Hercules, Mulan, Pocahantas), coupled with the talent that Disney employs, I'd go for it. But I don't want the Realms to be turned into a bubbly, sparkly, little kids movie. My Realms always come with a heaping of murder, topped with betrayal and sodomy, and sprinkled with madness. That is baked under extreme brutality and sexuality. It's a recipe for success;)
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:15 PM	My Realms always come with a heaping of murder, topped with betrayal and sodomy, and sprinkled with madness. That is baked under extreme brutality and sexuality. It's a recipe for success;) -That's what most Disney movies are. Think about it. Alladin: The movie centers around thieft, deceit, slavery, and making deals with extraplanar powers. Hercules: Meg is Hades' hoe. Wow. Mulan: How many people got killed? Geeze. Pocahontas: They were going to scalp John friggin' Smith. At least one Indian warrior was killed. Plenty of people being shot.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:17 PM	Yet they still seem to make it feel like glitter paint...hmm, perhaps I have misjudged the true purpose of Disney, he, he, he...:devil:
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:39 PM	Yet they still seem to make it feel like glitter paint...hmm, perhaps I have misjudged the true purpose of Disney, he, he, he...:devil: -Well, you know what they say about Disney movies, right? "Look at what's in the background." -And, hell, when you think about it, many nursery rhymes and fables are incredibly violent, and/or disturbing. "Ring Around the Rosey"? Plague. "Rock-A-Bye-Baby"? The baby is falling out of a friggin' tree. Snow White? She's sleeping with seven dwarves...
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:42 PM	-Well, you know what they say about Disney movies, right? "Look at what's in the background." -And, hell, when you think about it, many nursery rhymes and fables are incredibly violent, and/or disturbing. "Ring Around the Rosey"? Plague. "Rock-A-Bye-Baby"? The baby is falling out of a friggin' tree. Snow White? She's sleeping with seven dwarves... Really, kids's shows and movies are just a lighter way to show the same principles.:) I just personally dislike the execution of it.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:50 PM	Really, kids's shows and movies are just a lighter way to show the same principles.:) I just personally dislike the execution of it. -Teach 'em young, so that you don't spring it on them later. -Much like Ilmatari dogma.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 03:48 PM	-Teach 'em young, so that you don't spring it on them later. . Finally we are in concordance.:)
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:48 AM	Finally we are in concordance.:) -I think I heard a choir singing in the background.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:17 PM	-I think I heard a choir singing in the background. Nah, it's just my neighbor eating my cat.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:26 PM	Nah, it's just my neighbor eating my cat. -My sister's friend actually had her cat eaten by her crazy grandmother, straight from S. Korea. I've only heard the story second-hand, from my sister, but that's one hell of a story.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:30 PM	-My sister's friend actually had her cat eaten by her crazy grandmother, straight from S. Korea. I've only heard the story second-hand, from my sister, but that's one hell of a story. A similar thing happened to my friend's cat in China.