Tripping Over Random Epic Level Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tripping Over Random Epic Level Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scyld
07-24-05, 03:45 AM It seems like every time I run a Forgotten Realms campaign, my players end up more or less tripping over whatever epic level character happens to call that particular forest, cave, tavern, or inn 'home.'

Seriously, is there any place on the surface of Faerun you can have huge, 'epic' adventures (not epic in the sense of high level, but epic in the sense of what's at stake - 'ressurection of a malevolent god if the party loses' style epic, or 'the Bloodwar spills out across the Prime if the party fails' style epic, as opposed to MOREBIGGEREXPLOSIONS and individual fights that last for hours on end) without tripping over 20+ level NPCs who can and probably would solve the entire crisis without even trying hard?
Dielzen
07-24-05, 04:11 AM I think the question you really need to ask yourself is.....
Why are you, as the DM, allowing them to be in the same place?

At any given time in the realms, there's MANY "end of the world" threats going on at once, as is befitting a world in which the gods of evil must strive to hold onto their worpshippers just as much as the good ones.

Elminster isn't in his tower every minute of the day, nor is Khelben in waterdeep every day, etc. In fact, if you read some of the novels, Elminster's never home when you need him, or not even on the same plane half the time.
Muddman
07-24-05, 10:41 AM There was a great series of dragon articles revolving around an invasion by the Githyanki.

I'm currently planning a campaign based on it and one of the major points is that the first thing they do is kidnap (or kill if thats your style of realms) the big NPCs of the world.

I highly recomend it :)
Babo
07-24-05, 11:22 AM There are several ways to handle the problem. It's a variant of Deus Ex Machina, your goal is to increase PC involvement and keep them from relying on NPCs for help, right?
The first part of the problem might be that the PCs are taking on epic adventurer when their own power level isn't quite sufficient, leading them to seek outside help instead of solving the problem themselves. If you increase their level or lower the level of the threat, they might seek outside help less.
The second part of the problem might be that other epic characters aren't busy enough. Since there are in fact many plots being directed by many evils at a time, epic NPCs should always be involved with one or another of them. This keeps them from solving the whole problem immediately. Once the PCs uncover the enormity of the situation, they might obtain outside assistance. However when they do so be sure that the lesser villains whose plot is abandoned make great progress now that nothing is checking them.
Here's my idea. The PCs uncover a plot to conquer Faerun and thwart it in its early stages, perhaps with NPC aid. Everything about the plot is legitimate and on the surface, once it is uncovered. No one is secretly manipulating the characters at this point. Then, rumors lead the characters to another horrible consipracy to destroy the world, and maybe they solve this one with the aid of outside NPCs. What a great job they are doing. But the PCs, since they are so good at finding plots and directing NPC attention to them, become the targets of a Church of Cyric plot. They uncovered evidence of dozens of fantastical schemes to destroy the world, all planted by the Church of Cyric (or something). The PCs do what they have been doing so well, gathering all the NPCs together to handle the 'threat'. Attention is drawn off from myriad mundane evil schemes. It comes out that the threat was false, damaging their credibility. More threats pour in, all false SAVE ONE, none of the NPCs really trusts the PCs anymore, and the abundance of red herrings ensures that the situation will persist. NOW is the time to bring out your big threat.
Allow the characters to summon as much epic NPC aid as they can. Then attack their ability to do so before bringing your ultimate threat to the table. It'll be effective in ensuring the solution to the problem is of PC creation, and it'll frighten your players. What more do you want?
Auburn
07-24-05, 01:30 PM If you've already established that the famous NPCs are regularly going to be there to help then any epic threat worth the name is going to take the famous NPCs out as part of its preparations for the main attack. Have the famous NPCs disappear or die mysteriously in the months or weeks leading up to the start of the epic threat. Now your players know they're facing something big and bad and they're the only ones left to handle it.
ClobberinTime
07-25-05, 11:07 AM From my understanding of it, In the famous Ed campaign much of the knights of Myth Drannors work was to convince the powers that be to help. i.e. it can be an epic adventure in itself to convince Elminster to get up off his duff and close that gate to the abyss.

Also don't forget that the chosen of mystra pretty much have their hands tied by the will of Mystra. I.e. they can't just do whatever they want. Figure out an angle whereby Mystra will keep them from getting involved. Also remember these characters have become pretty hardened over the last thousand years to human suffering and don't just pop in to save every threatened land.
Faraer
07-25-05, 01:08 PM A few quick points:
-- if you see lots of epic level characters in caves and taverns, you have different sources than I do
-- look again at the scale of the map: there's at least 1,000 square miles for every 20th+-level character
-- a lot of them are reclusive or surrounded by organizations that make them inaccessible: descriptions of Elminster's tower, for instance, specifically recommend that if PCs try to find him he not be in
-- don't forget the neutral and evil characters, far more common than good
-- see FA1 Halls of the High King for an example of 'resurrection of a malevolent god'
-- in very broad terms: duties and responsibilities, prior agreements and pacts, limited channels of information, vulnerability to rivals, diverse goals, and so on severely limit the number of people who are going to be involved in any given situation; even so, the Realms is a living world of active factions, and it's quite reasonable if there's a Threat To All (which is not often) that All are somehow aware of, some of them will be involved, groups such as priesthoods and secret societies no less than mighty individuals. Most such Threats will occur via convoluted secret plotting and years of preparation, not a sudden apocalypse out of nowhere.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scyld 07-24-05, 03:45 AM	It seems like every time I run a Forgotten Realms campaign, my players end up more or less tripping over whatever epic level character happens to call that particular forest, cave, tavern, or inn 'home.' Seriously, is there any place on the surface of Faerun you can have huge, 'epic' adventures (not epic in the sense of high level, but epic in the sense of what's at stake - 'ressurection of a malevolent god if the party loses' style epic, or 'the Bloodwar spills out across the Prime if the party fails' style epic, as opposed to MOREBIGGEREXPLOSIONS and individual fights that last for hours on end) without tripping over 20+ level NPCs who can and probably would solve the entire crisis without even trying hard?
Dielzen 07-24-05, 04:11 AM	I think the question you really need to ask yourself is..... Why are you, as the DM, allowing them to be in the same place? At any given time in the realms, there's MANY "end of the world" threats going on at once, as is befitting a world in which the gods of evil must strive to hold onto their worpshippers just as much as the good ones. Elminster isn't in his tower every minute of the day, nor is Khelben in waterdeep every day, etc. In fact, if you read some of the novels, Elminster's never home when you need him, or not even on the same plane half the time.
Muddman 07-24-05, 10:41 AM	There was a great series of dragon articles revolving around an invasion by the Githyanki. I'm currently planning a campaign based on it and one of the major points is that the first thing they do is kidnap (or kill if thats your style of realms) the big NPCs of the world. I highly recomend it :)
Babo 07-24-05, 11:22 AM	There are several ways to handle the problem. It's a variant of Deus Ex Machina, your goal is to increase PC involvement and keep them from relying on NPCs for help, right? The first part of the problem might be that the PCs are taking on epic adventurer when their own power level isn't quite sufficient, leading them to seek outside help instead of solving the problem themselves. If you increase their level or lower the level of the threat, they might seek outside help less. The second part of the problem might be that other epic characters aren't busy enough. Since there are in fact many plots being directed by many evils at a time, epic NPCs should always be involved with one or another of them. This keeps them from solving the whole problem immediately. Once the PCs uncover the enormity of the situation, they might obtain outside assistance. However when they do so be sure that the lesser villains whose plot is abandoned make great progress now that nothing is checking them. Here's my idea. The PCs uncover a plot to conquer Faerun and thwart it in its early stages, perhaps with NPC aid. Everything about the plot is legitimate and on the surface, once it is uncovered. No one is secretly manipulating the characters at this point. Then, rumors lead the characters to another horrible consipracy to destroy the world, and maybe they solve this one with the aid of outside NPCs. What a great job they are doing. But the PCs, since they are so good at finding plots and directing NPC attention to them, become the targets of a Church of Cyric plot. They uncovered evidence of dozens of fantastical schemes to destroy the world, all planted by the Church of Cyric (or something). The PCs do what they have been doing so well, gathering all the NPCs together to handle the 'threat'. Attention is drawn off from myriad mundane evil schemes. It comes out that the threat was false, damaging their credibility. More threats pour in, all false SAVE ONE, none of the NPCs really trusts the PCs anymore, and the abundance of red herrings ensures that the situation will persist. NOW is the time to bring out your big threat. Allow the characters to summon as much epic NPC aid as they can. Then attack their ability to do so before bringing your ultimate threat to the table. It'll be effective in ensuring the solution to the problem is of PC creation, and it'll frighten your players. What more do you want?
Auburn 07-24-05, 01:30 PM	If you've already established that the famous NPCs are regularly going to be there to help then any epic threat worth the name is going to take the famous NPCs out as part of its preparations for the main attack. Have the famous NPCs disappear or die mysteriously in the months or weeks leading up to the start of the epic threat. Now your players know they're facing something big and bad and they're the only ones left to handle it.
ClobberinTime 07-25-05, 11:07 AM	From my understanding of it, In the famous Ed campaign much of the knights of Myth Drannors work was to convince the powers that be to help. i.e. it can be an epic adventure in itself to convince Elminster to get up off his duff and close that gate to the abyss. Also don't forget that the chosen of mystra pretty much have their hands tied by the will of Mystra. I.e. they can't just do whatever they want. Figure out an angle whereby Mystra will keep them from getting involved. Also remember these characters have become pretty hardened over the last thousand years to human suffering and don't just pop in to save every threatened land.
Faraer 07-25-05, 01:08 PM	A few quick points: -- if you see lots of epic level characters in caves and taverns, you have different sources than I do -- look again at the scale of the map: there's at least 1,000 square miles for every 20th+-level character -- a lot of them are reclusive or surrounded by organizations that make them inaccessible: descriptions of Elminster's tower, for instance, specifically recommend that if PCs try to find him he not be in -- don't forget the neutral and evil characters, far more common than good -- see FA1 Halls of the High King for an example of 'resurrection of a malevolent god' -- in very broad terms: duties and responsibilities, prior agreements and pacts, limited channels of information, vulnerability to rivals, diverse goals, and so on severely limit the number of people who are going to be involved in any given situation; even so, the Realms is a living world of active factions, and it's quite reasonable if there's a Threat To All (which is not often) that All are somehow aware of, some of them will be involved, groups such as priesthoods and secret societies no less than mighty individuals. Most such Threats will occur via convoluted secret plotting and years of preparation, not a sudden apocalypse out of nowhere.