Tweaking the Iconics on a ? pointbuy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tweaking the Iconics on a ? pointbuy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chronomage
05-30-04, 03:54 AM It's been said before the Iconics are rather weak for their CRs, what with multiclassing in non cooperative professions, and their un-min-maxed ability scores, feats, skills, and the like. My question, and this thread, are not for those who feel the Iconics (Elminster, the Seven Sisters, Szass Tam, Drizz't, Halaster, and all the others) are fine as are and shouldn't be changed. For those that feel they are fine, buzz off.

In my campaign the PCs are playing at a 32 point buy. The minor nameless NPCs are bought at a 28, the lieutenants at a 30, and the named lieutenants and bosses at a 32.
Your opinion: What should be the Point buy of the Iconic characters, or range if you feel some should have higher stats than others? I was thinking a 36-38 might be suitable, and it might be pointed out these points are used to more aptly design the ability scores with ROLEPLAYING concerns in mind. This same point buy will be used to create the truly powerful opponents I myself will create as well, my Irenicus's, for those that have played BG2. Post your suggestions, as well as what NPC you feel needs to be tweaked the most.
Sarta
05-30-04, 04:53 AM I'd not sweat the point buy and just stat them as makes sense. It's pretty inconceivable that in the course of gaming your players will even notice the results of npc statbuys.

My philosophy is if they won't notice it, I can disregard it, and save myself some time and trouble.

Sarta
Chronomage
05-30-04, 05:30 AM I appreciate the thought, and to an extent agree. But for my own personal making of, I usually prefer point buys, as they keep me honest. Feel free also, in the thread, to discuss variant classes for the Iconics, such as Drizz't being a Dervish from the CW (BTW, that was 1 of only 3 PrCs I found useful from the book, a reason I didn't buy it).

Still, Sarta, what ability score array (no point buy) would you give to two favorites, Elminster, and Drizz't? I'd like to hear thoughs on this, just to see. Also, try making Elminster's abilities at first and than at X level, after he's completed with his Template bonuses, his discretionary points from levels spent, and whatever inherent bonuses he picked up on the way. Try to confine yourself to Elminster as he was at the beginning of 3rd edition, before any of the business in the novels occured, know what I mean? :)
The Simbul
05-30-04, 05:47 AM Although I use alternate (and statistically more viable) versions of virtually every Iconic NPC that has been "converted" to 3rd edition and is needed for use in my campaigns, I do not re-configure their base ability scores through point-buy. I use their original un-altered base ability scores for 2nd edition, and allow them to take full advantage of ability increases at every four levels and full access to magic items and spells which further augment their principle ability scores.

If that seems unfair, it is worth noting that many of the methods of raising your ability scores, primarily through wishes and a few magic items, were to some degree available in 2nd edition, yet many of these characters did not take advantage of such methods. Furthermore, while many of the Chosen of Mystra are actually missing ability score adjustments for their total Hit Dice in 3rd edition (see below), some other NPC's whose base ability scores were no less fanciful were able to take full advantage of these methods in 3rd edition.

AFAIC the Iconic NPC's, like Elminster, Drizzt, Szass Tam, and Larloch, they are one in a million of mortal beings who walk the face of Toril, and since they were "rolled" with especially high scores, they managed to rise above the ranks of the average NPC character.

In the case of the Seven Sisters (none of which appear to have any ability score below 13, and virtually all of whom have multiple 17's and 18's) I attribute that to the fact that since they are the offspring of a Goddess, and were specifically molded by Mystra, they are entitled to the minor benefit of being a Divine Rank 0 being, which would be superior ability scores.

In terms of the Chosen of Mystra (those who have been given "official" stats), their original and un-augmented ability scores from 2nd edition are:

Elminster: STR 13, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 17.

Alustriel: STR 11, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 18, WIS 17, CHA 17.

Khelben: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 16, CHA 15.

Storm: STR 18, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 15, WIS 15, CHA 15.

The Simbul: STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 15, CHA 17.
Chronomage
05-30-04, 08:34 AM Jesus, that's some powerful stats, The Simbul, thanks. I'd probably lower some of them though, cause, Kee-RICED!\

Elminster, for examp, might be:

Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 14, Intelligence 18, Wis 17, Charisma 16

As far as Charisma goes, there's a lot of people that don't like Elminster's crusty attitude, and other's that warm up just fine. Considering 10-11 average, I think that might be fair. JR, that these are only the stats as I might do them in my campaign, before leveling. After levels, say Eminster was 32nd character level, he might have:

Str 13, Dexterity 16, Constitution 14 (24 from Chosen), Intelligence 24/28 (36), Wisdom 18/20, Charisma 16

the # after the / is with inherent bonus, and the ()'s indicate enhancement. I feel as an epic character, Ganda....El, should have a higher enhancement bonus to his Int than 6.
The Simbul
05-30-04, 09:01 AM El should have a higher enhancement bonus to his Int than 6. Well he does have the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat, and a virtually limitless amount of wealth at his disposal, of course if you wanted to be precise and fair, he would either have the average ammassed wealth of a 39th level character or a 45th level character (if give the Chosen Of Mystra template the suggested +10 LA) since character wealth is a function of a your total ECL rather than HD.

Also I would recomment giving him a +5 Inherent bonus to INT, if noting else for the fact that the Core Rules "Iconic" Wizard (Mialee) has a +5 Inherent Bonus to her INT score at the mere level of 18.
Chronomage
05-30-04, 10:29 AM Originally posted by The Simbul
Well he does have the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat, and a virtually limitless amount of wealth at his disposal, of course if you wanted to be precise and fair, he would either have the average ammassed wealth of a 39th level character or a 45th level character (if give the Chosen Of Mystra template the suggested +10 LA) since character wealth is a function of a your total ECL rather than HD.

Also I would recomment giving him a +5 Inherent bonus to INT, if noting else for the fact that the Core Rules "Iconic" Wizard (Mialee) has a +5 Inherent Bonus to her INT score at the mere level of 18.

IF I was purely min maxing El, I'd agree. However, I find it hard to believe how easy it is to afford such bonuses, and prefer to think of a +5 as being something only the fewest of luckiest few recieve. For El, I imagine a +4 inherent to Int, and a +3 and +2 to two other stats. And for my post, I also think I might adjust his dexterity naturally at start to 16, so all his points might go to Int. Actually, screw it. I'll give Ed the Following Stats

Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 17, 16

After leveling and Inherent:

Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14 (24), Int 26/30 (38-40), Wis 17/20, Cha 16/18

That should make him one heck of a badass straight out. Hrmm, wonder how many points I spent...63. HOLY GODDESS! If I do this, I think I would adjust his CR by at least +1, maybe 2, due to the fact most CRs are based around the 25 point buy. Sound fair?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chronomage 05-30-04, 03:54 AM	It's been said before the Iconics are rather weak for their CRs, what with multiclassing in non cooperative professions, and their un-min-maxed ability scores, feats, skills, and the like. My question, and this thread, are not for those who feel the Iconics (Elminster, the Seven Sisters, Szass Tam, Drizz't, Halaster, and all the others) are fine as are and shouldn't be changed. For those that feel they are fine, buzz off. In my campaign the PCs are playing at a 32 point buy. The minor nameless NPCs are bought at a 28, the lieutenants at a 30, and the named lieutenants and bosses at a 32. Your opinion: What should be the Point buy of the Iconic characters, or range if you feel some should have higher stats than others? I was thinking a 36-38 might be suitable, and it might be pointed out these points are used to more aptly design the ability scores with ROLEPLAYING concerns in mind. This same point buy will be used to create the truly powerful opponents I myself will create as well, my Irenicus's, for those that have played BG2. Post your suggestions, as well as what NPC you feel needs to be tweaked the most.
Sarta 05-30-04, 04:53 AM	I'd not sweat the point buy and just stat them as makes sense. It's pretty inconceivable that in the course of gaming your players will even notice the results of npc statbuys. My philosophy is if they won't notice it, I can disregard it, and save myself some time and trouble. Sarta
Chronomage 05-30-04, 05:30 AM	I appreciate the thought, and to an extent agree. But for my own personal making of, I usually prefer point buys, as they keep me honest. Feel free also, in the thread, to discuss variant classes for the Iconics, such as Drizz't being a Dervish from the CW (BTW, that was 1 of only 3 PrCs I found useful from the book, a reason I didn't buy it). Still, Sarta, what ability score array (no point buy) would you give to two favorites, Elminster, and Drizz't? I'd like to hear thoughs on this, just to see. Also, try making Elminster's abilities at first and than at X level, after he's completed with his Template bonuses, his discretionary points from levels spent, and whatever inherent bonuses he picked up on the way. Try to confine yourself to Elminster as he was at the beginning of 3rd edition, before any of the business in the novels occured, know what I mean? :)
The Simbul 05-30-04, 05:47 AM	Although I use alternate (and statistically more viable) versions of virtually every Iconic NPC that has been "converted" to 3rd edition and is needed for use in my campaigns, I do not re-configure their base ability scores through point-buy. I use their original un-altered base ability scores for 2nd edition, and allow them to take full advantage of ability increases at every four levels and full access to magic items and spells which further augment their principle ability scores. If that seems unfair, it is worth noting that many of the methods of raising your ability scores, primarily through wishes and a few magic items, were to some degree available in 2nd edition, yet many of these characters did not take advantage of such methods. Furthermore, while many of the Chosen of Mystra are actually missing ability score adjustments for their total Hit Dice in 3rd edition (see below), some other NPC's whose base ability scores were no less fanciful were able to take full advantage of these methods in 3rd edition. AFAIC the Iconic NPC's, like Elminster, Drizzt, Szass Tam, and Larloch, they are one in a million of mortal beings who walk the face of Toril, and since they were "rolled" with especially high scores, they managed to rise above the ranks of the average NPC character. In the case of the Seven Sisters (none of which appear to have any ability score below 13, and virtually all of whom have multiple 17's and 18's) I attribute that to the fact that since they are the offspring of a Goddess, and were specifically molded by Mystra, they are entitled to the minor benefit of being a Divine Rank 0 being, which would be superior ability scores. In terms of the Chosen of Mystra (those who have been given "official" stats), their original and un-augmented ability scores from 2nd edition are: Elminster: STR 13, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 17. Alustriel: STR 11, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 18, WIS 17, CHA 17. Khelben: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 16, CHA 15. Storm: STR 18, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 15, WIS 15, CHA 15. The Simbul: STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 15, CHA 17.
Chronomage 05-30-04, 08:34 AM	Jesus, that's some powerful stats, The Simbul, thanks. I'd probably lower some of them though, cause, Kee-RICED!\ Elminster, for examp, might be: Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 14, Intelligence 18, Wis 17, Charisma 16 As far as Charisma goes, there's a lot of people that don't like Elminster's crusty attitude, and other's that warm up just fine. Considering 10-11 average, I think that might be fair. JR, that these are only the stats as I might do them in my campaign, before leveling. After levels, say Eminster was 32nd character level, he might have: Str 13, Dexterity 16, Constitution 14 (24 from Chosen), Intelligence 24/28 (36), Wisdom 18/20, Charisma 16 the # after the / is with inherent bonus, and the ()'s indicate enhancement. I feel as an epic character, Ganda....El, should have a higher enhancement bonus to his Int than 6.
The Simbul 05-30-04, 09:01 AM	El should have a higher enhancement bonus to his Int than 6. Well he does have the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat, and a virtually limitless amount of wealth at his disposal, of course if you wanted to be precise and fair, he would either have the average ammassed wealth of a 39th level character or a 45th level character (if give the Chosen Of Mystra template the suggested +10 LA) since character wealth is a function of a your total ECL rather than HD. Also I would recomment giving him a +5 Inherent bonus to INT, if noting else for the fact that the Core Rules "Iconic" Wizard (Mialee) has a +5 Inherent Bonus to her INT score at the mere level of 18.
Chronomage 05-30-04, 10:29 AM	Originally posted by The Simbul Well he does have the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat, and a virtually limitless amount of wealth at his disposal, of course if you wanted to be precise and fair, he would either have the average ammassed wealth of a 39th level character or a 45th level character (if give the Chosen Of Mystra template the suggested +10 LA) since character wealth is a function of a your total ECL rather than HD. Also I would recomment giving him a +5 Inherent bonus to INT, if noting else for the fact that the Core Rules "Iconic" Wizard (Mialee) has a +5 Inherent Bonus to her INT score at the mere level of 18. IF I was purely min maxing El, I'd agree. However, I find it hard to believe how easy it is to afford such bonuses, and prefer to think of a +5 as being something only the fewest of luckiest few recieve. For El, I imagine a +4 inherent to Int, and a +3 and +2 to two other stats. And for my post, I also think I might adjust his dexterity naturally at start to 16, so all his points might go to Int. Actually, screw it. I'll give Ed the Following Stats Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 17, 16 After leveling and Inherent: Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14 (24), Int 26/30 (38-40), Wis 17/20, Cha 16/18 That should make him one heck of a badass straight out. Hrmm, wonder how many points I spent...63. HOLY GODDESS! If I do this, I think I would adjust his CR by at least +1, maybe 2, due to the fact most CRs are based around the 25 point buy. Sound fair?