updates for Unapproachable East? [Archive] - Wizards Community

updates for Unapproachable East? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sydney Losstarot
04-18-04, 12:36 AM I'm looking for a 3.5 update for UE. Specifically, a Level Adjustment for the Dread Warrior...but the rest would be nice, too. :angel:
FineasBoggs
04-18-04, 03:29 PM UA is already 3.5 compliant...so good luck finding an update. :D

http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
FineasBoggs
04-18-04, 03:33 PM Additionally, lack of an LA for the template indicates it can't be used as a PC. Read the description of it and you'll see it makes a poor choice for any PC.

http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot
04-18-04, 06:35 PM :uh-huh: Why do you assume I want to use it for a PC?
Nyat
04-18-04, 06:40 PM Probably because you asked for a level adjustment, not a CR adjustment.
FineasBoggs
04-18-04, 11:14 PM Why do you assume I want to use it for a PC?

Probably because you asked for a level adjustment, not a CR adjustment.

Two reasons:

One because PC's are the only ones that would use a LA, and two; because their is no CR adjustment for the template, otherwise it would have it listed. It simply isn't a powerful enough template to warrant a CR increase.

Maybe you meant CR instead of LA. It is a common enough mistake. With all the different terms, it's easy to get confused.

http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot
04-18-04, 11:17 PM PC's are the only ones who use level adjustments?

Then I must assume that cohorts and followers don't exist in your games.

And no, I meant LA...I know the difference between LA and CR, thank you.
protonik
04-18-04, 11:27 PM I don't think your attitude will help you get an answer...

Yeah cohorts get an LA etc. but it would be the templates CR adjustment. They aren't PCs.

Jason
Sydney Losstarot
04-18-04, 11:30 PM You can assume I have an "attitude" all you want. ~shrug~

So a cohort or a follower adds their CR (or CR adjustment) to their "level" instead of the LA? :uh-huh: Are you sure about that? I don't think that's right. All of the dragon-cohorts in the Draconomicon had a level adjustment.
Metis
04-18-04, 11:48 PM I believe it was left out because a Dread Warrior doesn't make a very good cohort. A near-mindless creation for you to order around, created by Thayan magics, yes. Cohort, no.

You'll have to figure out the LA yourself, slap the template on a group of PCs and see what they can handle or not handle in terms of CR.
Sydney Losstarot
04-18-04, 11:54 PM I was thinking of filling out my character's Leadership score with some undead minions, if the DM permitted. Dread Warriors seemed like a good option, but they don't have a LA...
FineasBoggs
04-19-04, 12:50 PM Everything else said aside, try reading the book first before asking for a 3.5 update on a book that already is 3.5 compliant.

With a misunderstanding as that it's not too far wrong to infer you didn't know the difference between LA and CR.

Also, I'm curious where in the DMG it states that cohorts or followers have a LA. If you could point me to it I would be appreciative.

http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
FineasBoggs
04-19-04, 01:03 PM The ECL adjustment from a DRAGON cohort is only for the purposes of selecting an appropriate cohort, not for any other purpose. ( i.e. level advancement ) Lack of a LA for a creature indicates none, not a need for an update.

http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot
04-20-04, 04:19 AM Originally posted by FineasBoggs
The ECL adjustment from a DRAGON cohort is only for the purposes of selecting an appropriate cohort, not for any other purpose.

If you think that's what a level adjustment is, perhaps you're the one who should "read the book".

From the Monster Manual:
"Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective CHARACTER level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.
Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character."

Please note: "character". Not "Player Character", but "character". Be it PC or NPC.
Cunning Linguist
04-20-04, 08:15 AM Still, it has no LA, if any, I would rank it as -1, but with the powers, it looks more like something Wizards would put at LA0.

But be warned, it a awful cohort, as the discription says: "Dread Warriors are not always reliable servents" I'd rather go for a Juju Zombie.
protonik
04-20-04, 11:46 AM Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot
If you think that's what a level adjustment is, perhaps you're the one who should "read the book".

This is what I meant originally about being rude.

Jason
FineasBoggs
04-20-04, 03:50 PM I actually was reading from the book the effects of the dragon cohort feat. Though in this reference it reduces the dragon cohorts ECL by three and is used only for selecting an appropriate cohort. It doesn't affect the dragons abilities and its effects on the players campaign.

I would say again read the book. The dread warrior doesn't have a LA because it doesn't need it, not because this 3.5 version needs an update to 3.5.1.

I do see your point though, since the cohort is essentially part of the party and has an ongoing affect on the campaign, it would apply a LA for andvancement purposes, if any. However, for every other instance where the NPC is not part of the party, there is no LA or ECL. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if you argued against this as well.

http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot
04-21-04, 10:55 PM Originally posted by FineasBoggs
However, for every other instance where the NPC is not part of the party, there is no LA or ECL. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if you argued against this as well.

Au contraire!

In that instance, I really don't care if the NPC has an ECL or LA. :angel:

But as I've said, I'm a player...so it's easy for me to say that.
ender
04-23-04, 03:12 AM Original post by Sydney Losstarot:
I was thinking of filling out my character's Leadership score with some undead minions, if the DM permitted. Dread Warriors seemed like a good option, but they don't have a LA...

I could easily be wrong (and correct me if I am), but I don't think that dread warriors would count as cohorts. If you're a cleric, then you're just commanding them (in which case you can command as many hit dice of dread warrior as your cleric level).

If, as is more likely, you are a necromancer, then you should be able to create DWs to your heart's content, so long as you have enough dead skilled warriors, rusted blades, and XP.

This is the impression that I get, anyway, since the spell description states that Szass Tam has been using this spell to create an army of DWs. Especially because it doesn't take anything like reputation, charisma, or leadership abilities to command mindless servile creatures.
Sydney Losstarot
04-23-04, 03:15 AM Originally posted by ender
Especially because it doesn't take anything like reputation, charisma, or leadership abilities to command mindless servile creatures.

Search the WotC site for "Undead Leadership". :angel:
ender
04-23-04, 03:27 AM Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot
Search the WotC site for "Undead Leadership". :angel:

Done. I found nothing. Not really surprising, as the WotC search engine seems to be programmed with WackyCode or something.

Could you provide a more specific link?
Sydney Losstarot
04-23-04, 03:34 AM Ugh...you're right, it must be. I can't find it either. Good thing I saved it when I had the chance...

Undead Leadership is basically the same as regular leadership, except that you attract undead servitors.
Sydney Losstarot
04-23-04, 03:39 AM The article is called "Dead Life", and it was written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel.

Unfortunately, I've yet to come up with a link.
ender
04-23-04, 03:48 AM Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot
The article is called "Dead Life", and it was written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel.

That's all I needed. Pretty sad when it doesn't even show up on the Wizard's search engine, but is item #1 when I use Google. (For those who are interested, by the way, you can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)

However, it looks like this feat is for undead creatures--not undead cohorts, that is to say, but for undead leaders. One of the prerequisites is undead type. While this works for our dear little Tam, not all necromancers are liches, and living spellcasters can still create dread warriors.

So it still seems to me like you would be able to have your DW servants without bringing leadership into the picture. Do you disagree? If so, why?
Sydney Losstarot
04-23-04, 03:52 AM The notion of Undead Leadership is appealing, but I don't feel it's necessary to have a seperate feat.

If my character IS undead, I should be able to recruit undead followers with the Leadership feat I already have. My DM feels the same way.

I'm not interested in lowly zombies or skeletons...I can make all I need with animate dead and the like.

But yeah, a DW cohort wouldn't be the best idea. Some DW followers might be useful, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sydney Losstarot 04-18-04, 12:36 AM	I'm looking for a 3.5 update for UE. Specifically, a Level Adjustment for the Dread Warrior...but the rest would be nice, too. :angel:
FineasBoggs 04-18-04, 03:29 PM	UA is already 3.5 compliant...so good luck finding an update. :D http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
FineasBoggs 04-18-04, 03:33 PM	Additionally, lack of an LA for the template indicates it can't be used as a PC. Read the description of it and you'll see it makes a poor choice for any PC. http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot 04-18-04, 06:35 PM	:uh-huh: Why do you assume I want to use it for a PC?
Nyat 04-18-04, 06:40 PM	Probably because you asked for a level adjustment, not a CR adjustment.
FineasBoggs 04-18-04, 11:14 PM	Why do you assume I want to use it for a PC? Probably because you asked for a level adjustment, not a CR adjustment. Two reasons: One because PC's are the only ones that would use a LA, and two; because their is no CR adjustment for the template, otherwise it would have it listed. It simply isn't a powerful enough template to warrant a CR increase. Maybe you meant CR instead of LA. It is a common enough mistake. With all the different terms, it's easy to get confused. http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot 04-18-04, 11:17 PM	PC's are the only ones who use level adjustments? Then I must assume that cohorts and followers don't exist in your games. And no, I meant LA...I know the difference between LA and CR, thank you.
protonik 04-18-04, 11:27 PM	I don't think your attitude will help you get an answer... Yeah cohorts get an LA etc. but it would be the templates CR adjustment. They aren't PCs. Jason
Sydney Losstarot 04-18-04, 11:30 PM	You can assume I have an "attitude" all you want. ~shrug~ So a cohort or a follower adds their CR (or CR adjustment) to their "level" instead of the LA? :uh-huh: Are you sure about that? I don't think that's right. All of the dragon-cohorts in the Draconomicon had a level adjustment.
Metis 04-18-04, 11:48 PM	I believe it was left out because a Dread Warrior doesn't make a very good cohort. A near-mindless creation for you to order around, created by Thayan magics, yes. Cohort, no. You'll have to figure out the LA yourself, slap the template on a group of PCs and see what they can handle or not handle in terms of CR.
Sydney Losstarot 04-18-04, 11:54 PM	I was thinking of filling out my character's Leadership score with some undead minions, if the DM permitted. Dread Warriors seemed like a good option, but they don't have a LA...
FineasBoggs 04-19-04, 12:50 PM	Everything else said aside, try reading the book first before asking for a 3.5 update on a book that already is 3.5 compliant. With a misunderstanding as that it's not too far wrong to infer you didn't know the difference between LA and CR. Also, I'm curious where in the DMG it states that cohorts or followers have a LA. If you could point me to it I would be appreciative. http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
FineasBoggs 04-19-04, 01:03 PM	The ECL adjustment from a DRAGON cohort is only for the purposes of selecting an appropriate cohort, not for any other purpose. ( i.e. level advancement ) Lack of a LA for a creature indicates none, not a need for an update. http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot 04-20-04, 04:19 AM	Originally posted by FineasBoggs The ECL adjustment from a DRAGON cohort is only for the purposes of selecting an appropriate cohort, not for any other purpose. If you think that's what a level adjustment is, perhaps you're the one who should "read the book". From the Monster Manual: "Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective CHARACTER level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character." Please note: "character". Not "Player Character", but "character". Be it PC or NPC.
Cunning Linguist 04-20-04, 08:15 AM	Still, it has no LA, if any, I would rank it as -1, but with the powers, it looks more like something Wizards would put at LA0. But be warned, it a awful cohort, as the discription says: "Dread Warriors are not always reliable servents" I'd rather go for a Juju Zombie.
protonik 04-20-04, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot If you think that's what a level adjustment is, perhaps you're the one who should "read the book". This is what I meant originally about being rude. Jason
FineasBoggs 04-20-04, 03:50 PM	I actually was reading from the book the effects of the dragon cohort feat. Though in this reference it reduces the dragon cohorts ECL by three and is used only for selecting an appropriate cohort. It doesn't affect the dragons abilities and its effects on the players campaign. I would say again read the book. The dread warrior doesn't have a LA because it doesn't need it, not because this 3.5 version needs an update to 3.5.1. I do see your point though, since the cohort is essentially part of the party and has an ongoing affect on the campaign, it would apply a LA for andvancement purposes, if any. However, for every other instance where the NPC is not part of the party, there is no LA or ECL. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if you argued against this as well. http://webpages.charter.net/acamphuysen/manshoon_mage_sigil.gif
Sydney Losstarot 04-21-04, 10:55 PM	Originally posted by FineasBoggs However, for every other instance where the NPC is not part of the party, there is no LA or ECL. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if you argued against this as well. Au contraire! In that instance, I really don't care if the NPC has an ECL or LA. :angel: But as I've said, I'm a player...so it's easy for me to say that.
ender 04-23-04, 03:12 AM	Original post by Sydney Losstarot: I was thinking of filling out my character's Leadership score with some undead minions, if the DM permitted. Dread Warriors seemed like a good option, but they don't have a LA... I could easily be wrong (and correct me if I am), but I don't think that dread warriors would count as cohorts. If you're a cleric, then you're just commanding them (in which case you can command as many hit dice of dread warrior as your cleric level). If, as is more likely, you are a necromancer, then you should be able to create DWs to your heart's content, so long as you have enough dead skilled warriors, rusted blades, and XP. This is the impression that I get, anyway, since the spell description states that Szass Tam has been using this spell to create an army of DWs. Especially because it doesn't take anything like reputation, charisma, or leadership abilities to command mindless servile creatures.
Sydney Losstarot 04-23-04, 03:15 AM	Originally posted by ender Especially because it doesn't take anything like reputation, charisma, or leadership abilities to command mindless servile creatures. Search the WotC site for "Undead Leadership". :angel:
ender 04-23-04, 03:27 AM	Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot Search the WotC site for "Undead Leadership". :angel: Done. I found nothing. Not really surprising, as the WotC search engine seems to be programmed with WackyCode or something. Could you provide a more specific link?
Sydney Losstarot 04-23-04, 03:34 AM	Ugh...you're right, it must be. I can't find it either. Good thing I saved it when I had the chance... Undead Leadership is basically the same as regular leadership, except that you attract undead servitors.
Sydney Losstarot 04-23-04, 03:39 AM	The article is called "Dead Life", and it was written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel. Unfortunately, I've yet to come up with a link.
ender 04-23-04, 03:48 AM	Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot The article is called "Dead Life", and it was written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel. That's all I needed. Pretty sad when it doesn't even show up on the Wizard's search engine, but is item #1 when I use Google. (For those who are interested, by the way, you can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) However, it looks like this feat is for undead creatures--not undead cohorts, that is to say, but for undead leaders. One of the prerequisites is undead type. While this works for our dear little Tam, not all necromancers are liches, and living spellcasters can still create dread warriors. So it still seems to me like you would be able to have your DW servants without bringing leadership into the picture. Do you disagree? If so, why?
Sydney Losstarot 04-23-04, 03:52 AM	The notion of Undead Leadership is appealing, but I don't feel it's necessary to have a seperate feat. If my character IS undead, I should be able to recruit undead followers with the Leadership feat I already have. My DM feels the same way. I'm not interested in lowly zombies or skeletons...I can make all I need with animate dead and the like. But yeah, a DW cohort wouldn't be the best idea. Some DW followers might be useful, though.