Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-22-07, 09:22 PM	Okay, we've had everyone complain under the sun about the various deities. So, who exactly would YOU personally have no trouble getting the headsman's ax amongst the Realm Divinities? Racial, Faerun, and so on are perfectly fine. Explain why if you can.
Alediran 10-23-07, 08:29 AM	Nobody, I want more gods, sometimes I can't find one who matches the needs I have.
Fabius Maximus 10-23-07, 08:44 AM	Siamorphe. There is no justification for her to exist. Gwaeron. He's just one of Mielikki's lackeys. So why is he a god? Shiallia. Why is she a seperate goddess? She's almost exclusivley restricted to the North, and could be just an aspect of Mielikki or Silvanus. The same could be said of Eldath, Lurue, and maybe even Nobanion. Garagos. Why wasn't he absorbed by Tempus?
Alediran 10-23-07, 08:51 AM	Siamorphe. There is no justification for her to exist. Nobility is a powerful force in the Realms, they are some of THE power players. Gwaeron. He's just one of Mielikki's lackeys. So why is he a god? IIRC he is a demi-god Shiallia. Why is she a seperate goddess? She's almost exclusivley restricted to the North, and could be just an aspect of Mielikki or Silvanus. The same could be said of Eldath, Lurue, and maybe even Nobanion. Because they are worshiped in different areas by different people and races. Nobanion for example is a favorite of the Wemic (the lion-people of the Shaar). Garagos. Why wasn't he absorbed by Tempus? Because Tempus doesn't want to assume Garagos portfolios.
Zanan 10-23-07, 10:02 AM	I like to compare the Realms panthei to that of the Romans and their hayday. You could have deities and divine beings everywhere and in everything needed. Even only by you and no-one else within a thousand miles. Where's the problem? The only concern might be the workload of the designers to keep all these beings "alive and kicking", whether needed or not. Obviously, you can - as Fabius Maximus apparently suggested - count the number of player character who have ever used Siomorphe or the like ever since she made it to the Realms on one hand. And rightly so, why should WotC have to keep such "useless" (RPG-in-game-wise) deity? I think that culling the pantheons is simply a way to keep the workload of the designers, authors and DMs (or so they might think) at a reasonable level. I for one would have kept these deities ... on the backburner and with a low key support*. No need to revert to 30 god pantheons and start a tabula rasa - cleansing just for the sake of the above. *You see, they have all been neatly described in the F&A series, partly updated in F&P and other stuff. If WotC don't want to keep their own busy with them, hand the work to some freelance folk (like us) who would gladly do it for free and then post them at the website as a PDF download or web-enhancement.
Another Gnome 10-23-07, 10:10 AM	Only a handful of deities are actually getting killed off, a lot of them are merely demoted to a "divine in name only" status -- much as would've been the case in the ancient Rome. There might have been a god of mustard, but his influence in the pantheon would've been dismissible at best.
BadCatMan 10-23-07, 10:38 AM	He just couldn't cut it. I'm loathe to remove any deity from the setting. Somewhere, it's something that some players like, and that's good enough reason to stay. Even Cyric, damn his black heart. Preferably, I'd like more deities. But some deities do appear to have been created with little justification or fore-thought. They just don't bring enough to the table. They're in need of serious revision Finder Wyvernspur is just too narrow and esoteric, trying to force a single aspect of nature into an art form and failing, and is too similar to various other deities. It would be better if the old Rot portfolio had gone to Talona, Chauntea or Silvanus, and the art aspects divided up amongst Oghma, Milil and Deneir. Failing that, he needs to be expanded into a full-blown god of change, transmutation and evolution. Lurue. Talking animals. Why? And so many nature deities, with more or less the same environments and goals. Why are they all temperate forest? If we had to have so many, why not deserts, plains, mountains, tundra, subterranean, jungles, and so on?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-23-07, 10:58 AM	I'm not fond of Siamorphe, but that doesn't mean I actively want her to die.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 12:00 PM	For me, Siamorphe could easilly be put aside for Helm or Torm. For me, I easilly think the Racial Pantheons could go. Maybe keep a few distinct members. Also, the Monster Gods. I'm all for many aspects to gods but Hanelli can be Sune.
Alediran 10-23-07, 12:19 PM	For me, Siamorphe could easilly be put aside for Helm or Torm. For me, I easilly think the Racial Pantheons could go. Maybe keep a few distinct members. Also, the Monster Gods. I'm all for many aspects to gods but Hanelli can be Sune. No, the racial pantheons are too important (the monster gods are part of this). And Hanalli Selanil is different from Sune, just chech the Elven Netbook thread.
ClobberinTime 10-23-07, 12:28 PM	I would do away with, and this is just off the top of my head: Siamphore Red Knight Gwaeron Helm Milil Deneir Fynder Nobanion The whole Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons Hoar Kelemvor (Bring back Myrkul or Jergal) Llira Loviatar Savras Velsharoon Sharess Shialla Uthgar Valkur
ClobberinTime 10-23-07, 12:29 PM	Oh yeah forgot some: Hoar Gargauth Garagos
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 12:31 PM	No, the racial pantheons are too important (the monster gods are part of this). And Hanalli Selanil is different from Sune, just chech the Elven Netbook thread. Honestly, in my campaign, Talos and Demon Worship can replace 9/10ths of all Evil Gods with nothing lost. What's lost really when Gruumsh is replaced by Talos? Especially if Gruumsh is just a "face" of Talos?
ClobberinTime 10-23-07, 12:46 PM	I'm glad you mentioned Talos, he is the most under used god in the business. I like him a million times better than Cyric, who hopefully now that he is trapped will become alot more like Tharizdun.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 01:09 PM	I think that having the God of Illusions, Lies, and Intrigue be Tharizdun is a bit off. Cyric, I still think, needs to evolve into a Loki figure. The Ragnarok Loki rather than the merry Trickster. But I've said as much. But yeah, Talos gets seriously nerfed for a Greater God of Destruction in a setting where Trolls and Ogres have their own God in Vaprak.
Rauric 10-23-07, 01:14 PM	I don't want many of the gods mentioned above to die, I just want them all placed in Demigod status and have them work as representitives for the Greater gods. In the new 4E FR the main rule book will probably have just the greater gods detailed. I think all of the other deities will still be around but they someone like Garagos will be even more "under the thumb" of a greater god like Tempus than he was before. I like Finder because of the novels but when I look at him and what he can do I say "C'mon we don't really need him as a full fledged god". Finder and many other gods will be made Divine agents or will become a "face" for a greater god who is not normally worshipped in a specific region. Off topic I am pretty sure Mask becomes a greater god soon, I think they will place Cyric under him as a punsihment for murdering Mystra. I think that is a pretty fitting end to the most hated god in fandom. ;) I used a cleric of Talos as a big bad of my old FR game. He was a manipulitive guy who had Griffons nest under his sway. He had the people give up Uthgardt and follow Talos and since they actually gained more power with the clerics leadership they were all for it. The cleric was also able to get two other Uthgartdt tribes to fall to Talos' will before the pcs slowed his religious campaign. Talos should be used more if possible.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 01:23 PM	Off topic I am pretty sure Mask becomes a greater god soon, I think they will place Cyric under him as a punsihment for murdering Mystra. I think that is a pretty fitting end to the most hated god in fandom. I think they've set Cyric up as a bigger threat than Shar, disturbingly. Unfortunately, his portfolios really don't match what he is. They should just make him the God of Murder, Rapine, Madness, and Slaughter. That would accurately reflect Cyric more the way they treat him. Mask could be Illusions, Lies, and Intrigue.
Rauric 10-23-07, 01:30 PM	I believe Kemp is going to have Mask "steal" illusion or intrigue (or both) away from Cyric at the end of his current series. This way Mask becomes a greter god and can fend off Shar easier. Shar may have Cyric kill Mystra during this time, maybe that is how Mask will usurp Cyric's stuff. Hell , maybe Mask tricks everyone into thinking it was Shar who had Cyric kill Mystra but the whole time it was Mask manipulating everyone!:D I can dream can't I?
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 01:43 PM	If that were true, I'd be very happy. But is it likely? Who knows.
Vasyek 10-23-07, 02:21 PM	Strangely, I wouldn't particularly mind seeing entire races get sent to the chopping block. Assuming anything short of that, however, I don't think I'd really be keen on any reduction in the amount of racial pantheons/gods. Let alone monster pantheons, which I actually care about in some cases. I'd suggest they drop Malar before they got rid of Karontor, for instance. Not that Malar's useless or that I hate him, but between the two it's the obscure fomorian god of Hatred, Deformity, and Beasts that I find more compelling. Or Bane before Memnor, though admittedly I do dislike Bane to begin with, and Talona before Sseth. But even in Bane's case, I don't really think he needs to die, at least not 'just because'. I simply think he'd make a clumsy stand-in for the role Memnor occupied. ...I suppose I am kind of tempted to let Memnor kill Bane and take his stuff after all. A god of Pride, Mental Prowess, and Control seems an altogether more insidious candidate for Lord of Tyranny. If there is a deity that I think is completely and unforgivably useless, it'd be Red Knight. Now I'm not against the idea of a goddess of tactical warfare and strategy at all, I kind of like it even. But she's too unambitious and idealistic for me to take seriously in that capacity. I'd also like Garagos to die, not because he's useless though. Rather, it doesn't seem like he's ever going to get back up into a position to challenge the valor-centric view of warfare that Tempus holds, and I think that view of warfare can and will be drowned out by craven treachery (which the Reaver admittedly has nothing to do with), ruthless ambition, and wanton bloodletting often enough that these things should have comparable divine representation. Though I suppose it could be argued rather effectively that between Cyric, Bane, and Talos, they already do. Similarly I think that the gods of fury being subsumed as darker aspects of the elemental gods could be an interesting move (though Malar would make more sense as a dark aspect of Silvanus, I suppose), even including Talos himself as a sort of gestalt entity/consciousness that surfaces from the worst characteristics of all four. But I also think they're interesting enough to remain their own gods, and I'm not particularly fond of the notion of the more benevolent nature deities getting the same treatment to balance that out. The lycanthrope deities in general don't need to be around while Nobanion, Malar, and Selune are, though I'd say Eshebala and Squerrik are distinct enough from the Beastlord in both personality and methodology to merit consideration as exceptions to that. I'm not even sure if they officially exist in the Realms to begin with, though. The troglodytes could probably get by just fine worshiping demon lords like Sess'innek and Turgalas, who are more interesting than Laogzed anyway. What's lost really when Gruumsh is replaced by Talos? Especially if Gruumsh is just a "face" of Talos? Maybe not much of anything, particularly in the latter case. But I think the differences between them, both in terms of goals and history, are interesting enough to keep them separate. I think Talos would lose something by becoming the all-purpose deity of chaotic evil monsters. Or the races themselves would lose something. I tend to view the monstrous deities as viewing their faithful as more worthy of perpetuation and divine favor than even those rare members of other races who are degenerate enough to consider worshiping them, and thus bearing some measure of honest concern for the welfare of their associative species. There are exceptions of course, like the Great Mother and Merrshaulk/Sseth (more Merrshaulk than Sseth though), and monstrous figures of worship who are demon lords, though they can certainly be emotionally invested in the prosperity of their hideous little fan clubs as well. But Talos? I prefer to think of him as a god who basically doesn't care about anyone to even the minimal extent that monstrous deities do. Humans, elves, bugbears, trolls, whatever... they're all just fuel for the spectacle of destruction, their differences meaningful only in respect to their tendency to yield variance in the sights, sounds, and smells that accompany their preferably lurid demise. He doesn't care about the advancement or even the survival of any of them. Sure, he's vain enough to enjoy seeing others cringe and fawn over him, but he also strikes me as the sort to grow bored of that very quickly or even disregard it altogether as a reason not to massacre people on occasion. Hence the fatalism that's so common among his faithful. I don't really see any race as a whole being insane enough to wish such an unreliable and abusive patron upon themselves (even considering the drow and Lolth), and I don't see Talos caring enough to change.
ClobberinTime 10-23-07, 02:25 PM	Well we all agree on one thing, Cyric has gotten way too much play in the modern realms. In all honesty I like the original pantheon from the Old Grey Box much better than the current line up. The idea of CE being the forces of nature embodied in the deities of Fury, i.e. Talos and his servants Auril and Malar was a nice change of pace. Also there the lesser gods were explicitly subservient to the higher powers. My idea with the Tharizdun-Cyric connection was that Cyric really finally goes crazy, is a total cast out of the Pantheon, and plots to destroy the multiverse from his new prison. Reduce him to the portfolios of Madness, Illusion and some other one that I can't think of now.
johnkretzer 10-23-07, 04:15 PM	I and my players have used all of the deities...so I can't really think of any being useless. Also the real reason Tempus didn't absorbed Garagos was propably because he wanted someone around that could challenge him in a fight.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 05:14 PM	My take on Talos is actually that he's the least evil god of the evil pantheon in the same way that Mask is. They're the two "sane" gods in that they're both reasonably loyal to their followers and their portfolios first. Yes, Talos might destroy the world or plot to do it on any given day of the week but that's because he's destruction not because he's a malevolent being out to corrupt everything. In the Old Great Wheel. Talos was CHAOTIC evil while Cyric was chaotic EVIL. Mask being NEUTRAL evil and Shar being neutral EVIL. If you catch my drift. As I explained to my players, Talos is the God of Heavy Metal. But yeah, in my 4E apocalypse (you can read it here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=942530) ) But yeah, I think it'll be a much more interesting Realms as I start moving the various deities to a more removed and godlike role as the various races create "faces". Thus Corellon will be Lathander and Selune be Selhaine and so on) But you do raise a good argument.
ClobberinTime 10-23-07, 05:51 PM	Yeah I have often thought that Talos needed to be revamped as CN.
Rauric 10-23-07, 06:06 PM	My take on Talos is actually that he's the least evil god of the evil pantheon in the same way that Mask is. They're the two "sane" gods in that they're both reasonably loyal to their followers and their portfolios first. Yes, Talos might destroy the world or plot to do it on any given day of the week but that's because he's destruction not because he's a malevolent being out to corrupt everything. In the Old Great Wheel. Talos was CHAOTIC evil while Cyric was chaotic EVIL. Mask being NEUTRAL evil and Shar being neutral EVIL. If you catch my drift. As I explained to my players, Talos is the God of Heavy Metal. But yeah, in my 4E apocalypse (you can read it here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=942530) ) But yeah, I think it'll be a much more interesting Realms as I start moving the various deities to a more removed and godlike role as the various races create "faces". Thus Corellon will be Lathander and Selune be Selhaine and so on) But you do raise a good argument. I concur. Mask is an evil god that I can see non-evil people worshipping. He is not about taking over the world or the planes, his goals are something a mortal can get behnd.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 06:28 PM	Gods that can be axed in my opinion This is my list based on the gods that have good STORY potential and those that don't. Non-Faerun deities pantheons Every Orc God but Gruumsh Every nonhuman deity god except Tiamat and Bahamut Kara Tur pantheon Maztica pantheon Zhakara Pantheon Mulhorandi pantheon (totally replace it with Set like Ed Greenwood envisioned) Faerun Deities that can get the Ax Milil (replace with Finder) Gwaeron Windstrom (we have Miekkli) Shialla (we have Miekkli) Nobanion (I'd make him an avatar of Tyr) Lurue (I'd make her an avatar of Miekkli or Mystra) Velsharoon (see below) Sleeping Frost Giant guy Deities who shouldn't be dead but are Myrkul (who can replace Velsharoon) Bhaal (who can replace Garagos and take some of Cyric's portfolio) Moander (I just lovingly loathe him)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-23-07, 06:48 PM	Every god has story potential...
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 07:00 PM	Yes, not necessarilly good story potential. There's a finite number of stories that can be told about the Realms and you should stick with the ones whom fill an iconic role in the setting and deserve most to be explored.
SgtAnjay 10-23-07, 07:03 PM	Every god has story potential...But not every FR writer, DM, or player can weave a good story with a character who has potential. Human nature being what it is, they're much more likely to blame the fictional character than themselves.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 07:13 PM	But not every FR writer, DM, or player can weave a good story with a character who has potential. Human nature being what it is, they're much more likely to blame the fictional character than themselves. Yes, I could write the greatest Gwaeron Windstorm set of novels ever created where we discover he's Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris/Christ all rolled into one and has sex with every goddess including Lolth in uncomfortable areas. Is that what's good for the Realms though?
SgtAnjay 10-23-07, 07:35 PM	Yes, I could write the greatest Gwaeron Windstorm set of novels ever created where we discover he's Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris/Christ all rolled into one and has sex with every goddess including Lolth in uncomfortable areas. Is that what's good for the Realms though? That sounds like a pretty horrible set of novels. Do you think a character has to be Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris/Christ or have copious sex to have story potential? Regardless, characters unique to the Realms which show its depth and breadth are good for the Realms. And never doubt there are many folks who like the deities of Faerun as they are. But this thread isn't really about that, so I'll stop derailing now.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 07:42 PM	That sounds like a pretty horrible set of novels. Do you think a character has to be Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris/Christ or have copious sex to have story potential? You're being sarcastic right? No one could have seriously not picked up I was making a joke, unless they're being sarcastic. Please tell me this. Regardless, characters unique to the Realms which show its depth and breadth are good for the Realms. And never doubt there are many folks who like the deities of Faerun as they are. But this thread isn't really about that, so I'll stop derailing now. Yes, and there's as many folk WHO DON'T like them as they are. Now it's our turn.
Rauric 10-23-07, 07:56 PM	Huzzah! Again, I don't want to see them axed as much as turn into divine agents. I think having some core gods with the greater title is plenty. I like the concept of Hoar but hate his name and just think he should be placed under ... hmmm who should Hoar be placed under?
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 08:04 PM	Kelemvor would be a good choice for Hoar's boss god.
BadCatMan 10-23-07, 08:56 PM	I like the concept of Hoar but hate his name and just think he should be placed under ... hmmm who should Hoar be placed under? I call him by his Untheric name Assuran. Anyway, he's just too badass (read sulky loner) to work for anybody. I don't see what some people have against racial and continental pantheons. Why should orcs and dwarves be expected to worship human gods? Why should Kara-Turans be expected to worship foreign Faerunian gods? Surely their own cultures and tastes should take precedent? Organic growth and rich culture is what makes FR such a good setting. The longer this thread goes, all gods will appear eventually. So I'll say Ilmater, Lathander, Tyr and Tempus, just because.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-23-07, 08:57 PM	Gwaeron. He's just one of Mielikki's lackeys. So why is he a god? Shiallia. Why is she a seperate goddess? She's almost exclusivley restricted to the North, and could be just an aspect of Mielikki or Silvanus. The same could be said of Eldath, Lurue, and maybe even Nobanion. They are regional, but do have portfolios that are more specific than those of Silvanus or Mielikki. Shiallia has a fertility portfolio, and Gwaeron has tracking, true that most their portfolios are covered, but I see no reason for these demideities to disappear all together. If I'm not mistaken, Lurue and Nobanion are some of Ed Greenwood's original deities for the realms. I think I read once about them in a post by Gray Richardson in a thread on Nobanion. Lurue may have even been a magic deityof some sort before TSR had Mystra be the magic deity... but I can't remember what the post said exactly, and I should go find it. Besides, I don't think either Silvanus or Mielikki cover the portfolio of peace in any way nor should, so why group Eldath with the others you listed as one that should be an aspect of one of them? She has portfolios that should be separate from the portfolios of Silvanus and Mielikki. I don't think all the lesser and demideities should be absorbed by other powers, especially when many cover portfolios that should stand out as separate from what other deities stand for. Also, I am probably one of the few on these boards that does not hate Finder Wyvernspur, that however, is an arguement for another day.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 09:09 PM	I love Finder. I just think he should be the God of Bards or get a decent Portfolio. Why I advocate killing Milil.
Rauric 10-23-07, 09:10 PM	I like Finder due to the novels. I think he should be made a divine agent of Tymora or Oghma though.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 09:11 PM	I don't see what some people have against racial and continental pantheons. Why should orcs and dwarves be expected to worship human gods? Why should Kara-Turans be expected to worship foreign Faerunian gods? Surely their own cultures and tastes should take precedent? Organic growth and rich culture is what makes FR such a good setting. I think it boils down to the fact that the Kara-Tur gods are foreign gods for the people of Kara-Tur. Chauntaea IS Toril, Lathander IS the Sun, Selune IS the Moon, and Shar IS the Darkness. Whatever gods that the Kara-Tur worship, they should have originally worshipped the Gods of Toril. Likewise, Talos IS destruction. Never in my life have I considered him a human god since he's older than the human race and will continue well on after its dust. Drive the Foreign Gods into the Astral with the Ring of Battlehammer and Mace!
Storm_Silverhand 10-23-07, 09:13 PM	Heya, Yes, not necessarilly good story potential. IN YOUR OPINION! There's a finite number of stories that can be told about the Realms and you should stick with the ones whom fill an iconic role in the setting and deserve most to be explored. I disagree with you. This whole thing is subjective - just because you don't see a need for Siamorphe, for example, doesn't mean that someone else might not love her. For example, someone who has a character who is a Paladin of Siamorphe, one who struggles to balance her duty to ensure succession by having a child, with her duty to her oath to uphold the common good and fight evil. There are complex stories to be found in all the gods of Faerun, and for this reason I wouldn't cut any of them from the pantheon... Removing any deity from the canon pantheon means that a DM is more limited in what she can do with them, while having a full pantheon full of gods means that a DM who wants to remove one (or more) of them in their own campaign can, without impacting on another DM who happens to like that deity, and feels she has many stories to tell. I suppose that answers the OP as well, I don't feel there are any useless deities in the Forgotten Realms pantheons.
Dark Wizard 10-23-07, 09:18 PM	In my opinion, that sounds more on the mark than many of the hinted changes. :D I could get behind the concept of change if that change involved making the blander gods more interesting without completely compromising their basic character. Most don't need to be killed either, the divine agent thing could work for most of the ones repeated put up for the ax by various posts so far.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 09:34 PM	I disagree with you. This whole thing is subjective - just because you don't see a need for Siamorphe, for example, doesn't mean that someone else might not love her. For example, someone who has a character who is a Paladin of Siamorphe, one who struggles to balance her duty to ensure succession by having a child, with her duty to her oath to uphold the common good and fight evil. Beautiful, now why is that story a story about Siamorphe and not Tyr or Torm? Now, explain to me why 2-3 pages about Siamorphe's clergy is better than 2-3 pages about Torm's clergy and rituals. Because, for every page we give these gods in Powers and Pantheons or Legends and Lore is a page taken from another god.
Rauric 10-23-07, 09:37 PM	Basically removing some of the lesser or demigods won't effect the Realms all that much. It will effect a few DMs or FR junkies that love everything that is found in a sourcebook even if it is redundant. Killing a Helm or Mystra on the other hand is a pretty big deal though IMO. The god of nobility should be a lackey of who? We should figure out which Greater god is going to "take in" certain other gods after the planar fallout.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 10:16 PM	Well she lives on Brightwater now...
Brewhammer 10-23-07, 10:28 PM	Faataz, the Halfling God of Pies. 'The Pie Eater.' He's had a jimmy-kickin' comin' for awhile now.
BadCatMan 10-23-07, 10:57 PM	I think it boils down to the fact that the Kara-Tur gods are foreign gods for the people of Kara-Tur. Chauntaea IS Toril, Lathander IS the Sun, Selune IS the Moon, and Shar IS the Darkness. Whatever gods that the Kara-Tur worship, they should have originally worshipped the Gods of Toril. The Realms probably used to be that way, but was it grew and expanded, as other settings were attached, and history filled out, it's simply no longer feasible. It doesn't work anymore, and looks silly in the current world. Other races and cultures have different deities, that's simply the way it is. (And I like it that way). Chauntea IS Toril TO the Faerunians. And Maztica is Toril to the Mazticans. And Jannath WAS Toril to the Netherese. All these cultures will inevitable see the world with different perspectives, and necessarily need different deities to represent it. It's more likely IMO that Chauntea merely represents the continent of Faerunian, and Maztica Maztica. Indeed, anywhere a faith takes hold will the see the land beneath its feet as that of their goddess. And beyond this, Chauntea, Maztica and Jannath and all the others are perhaps merely aspects of a greater and more remote Gaia-like entity, one that is literally a force of nature, beyond the understanding of mere mortals who worship idealized representations of her. And so on, for all the other deities. It makes for a much more organic and naturalistic world, rather than the usual artificial fantasy set-up.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 11:21 PM	It's more likely IMO that Chauntea merely represents the continent of Faerunian, and Maztica Maztica. Indeed, anywhere a faith takes hold will the see the land beneath its feet as that of their goddess. And beyond this, Chauntea, Maztica and Jannath and all the others are perhaps merely aspects of a greater and more remote Gaia-like entity, one that is literally a force of nature, beyond the understanding of mere mortals who worship idealized representations of her. I much prefer the other races are just imported souls like the Mulhorandi than throw out the very mythology of the Realms to accomadate a bunch of settings that feel arbitrarilly tacked on because no effort is made for them to be actually part of Toril. The novels reflect this too. Mystra is THE Goddess of magic. All other gods of the Earth exist at the sufferance of Chauntea. If it reduces other gods importance, GOOD.
Vasyek 10-23-07, 11:40 PM	My take on Talos is actually that he's the least evil god of the evil pantheon in the same way that Mask is. They're the two "sane" gods in that they're both reasonably loyal to their followers and their portfolios first. I don't know about being particularly sane in comparison to anyone, but I do agree that Talos isn't as evil as the likes of Cyric, Bane, or Shar. Probably not as evil as Loviatar or Talona either. But reasonably loyal to his followers? Not seeing it. It's worked into the foundations of his dogma that his followers shouldn't count on surviving for any particular length of time because there's no telling when he'll get around to killing them. That's nice and honest of him I suppose, but it's not what I'd call being loyal to your followers. And for his followers tendencies toward fatalism nearly to the point of self-destructiveness, I tend to think he lives up to his warning often enough for them to honestly have little to no idea of much longer it'll be before they're next. In a way, I think that's what makes him CHAOTIC evil, as you put it. But yeah, I think it'll be a much more interesting Realms as I start moving the various deities to a more removed and godlike role as the various races create "faces". Thus Corellon will be Lathander and Selune be Selhaine and so on) Well, I do think there is some truth to the notion that it creates opportunities for developing the deities who remain in interesting ways that might otherwise be untenable given overlap with other gods who might well act and think in the same way. But I still particularly don't like it, for whatever that's worth. Deities can, at least in theory, be developed in any number of ways without stepping on the toes of each other, and once you're committed to kicking entire pantheons to the curb, you're going to end up with stuff like Corellon being Lathander, to use your example. I'm sure it works for some people, but it's just crass to me; Lathander might have some similarities to Corellon, particularly their general celebration of art and life, but he has that whole dangerous impetuosity of youth aspect to his character that seems almost opposite to the isolation and traditionalism we often see with the elves. Furthermore, I'm not sure that all orc gods besides Gruumsh are dead weight. Sure, Shargaas could be replaced with Mask (awkwardly) or Cyric (less awkwardly theme-wise but more awkward with ensuing conflicts between him and Talos or Gruumsh, forget who you're using there at this point; not that that sort of awkwardness is necessarily a bad thing), Yurtrus could be replaced with Talona (though that's another case where I'd rather the reverse occur if one of them had to go), and Baghtru's just a loser in the first place. But Luthic in particular seems pretty damned important to the race, and Ilneval/his followers are a good way of exploring the more calculating side of the orcish race. Then there's removing all non-human gods besides Bahamaut and Tiamat, but I've already gone into that in my first post I guess.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 11:51 PM	Lathander might have some similarities to Corellon, particularly their general celebration of art and life, but he has that whole dangerous impetuosity of youth aspect to his character that seems almost opposite to the isolation and traditionalism we often see with the elves. One funny point, Corellon has the same problem by himself. He's a ridiculously upbeat, optimistic, and liberal god. That's what makes the Elves who worship him so stuffilly so ironic.
Vasyek 10-24-07, 12:01 AM	Maybe so, but there's still the matter of degree. I don't see Corellon starting a Dawn Cataclysm any time soon.
Karsus the Mad 10-24-07, 12:04 AM	"Useless" is rather subjective. To me, as a player, they're all rather useless as I've never played any type of divine character, nor any that were particularly devoted to a religion. The only exceptions having been Mystra, Azuth, Ogma, and Gond. As a DM, I like lots of deities, as it provides vast avenues for campaign options. Basically, Storm summed it up nicely for me as well. Removing any deity from the canon pantheon means that a DM is more limited in what she can do with them, while having a full pantheon full of gods means that a DM who wants to remove one (or more) of them in their own campaign can, without impacting on another DM who happens to like that deity, and feels she has many stories to tell.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 12:22 AM	To me, it also hurts realism to some extent. Let me explain, for every deity in the Realms, that means X-amount of followers must be following it. That means that there's X number of followers lost from the rest of the pantheon. That means that with a huge pantheon, there's almost no chance of a large and powerful Church of Tyr or Bane really. If there's 800 LE gods in the Realms, what's Bane's point?
Vasyek 10-24-07, 12:41 AM	If there's 800 LE gods in the Realms, what's Bane's point? Depends, how many of them are gods of Tyranny, how many of them have any strength of presence worth mentioning in the civilized/mainstream areas of the world, and what are their histories/relationships with others within and outside of their respective pantheons? And the most important question, I think, is Bane's character/story potential so much greater than theirs that it merits wiping them all out to let him take center stage?
johnkretzer 10-24-07, 01:12 AM	To me, it also hurts realism to some extent. Let me explain, for every deity in the Realms, that means X-amount of followers must be following it. That means that there's X number of followers lost from the rest of the pantheon. That means that with a huge pantheon, there's almost no chance of a large and powerful Church of Tyr or Bane really. If there's 800 LE gods in the Realms, what's Bane's point? Personaly I thought it was pretty dumb to have a gods strength based on the number of followers....but maybe that is just me. Um there aren't 800 LE gods in the Realms. Second the other LE gods in the Realms fill a very different niche then Bane. And Third gods I believe also gain power from indirect worship...I.E. Talos is a greater god not because he has lots of followers but because pray to him to stay away...these people don't follow him. So look at this way Everytime someone attend a party at one Lliira's churchs she gains power from this because they are propably saying a pray to her...so while she might not have the worshippers she gets power(or god food...mmm I like that term) from this. Or even a act that fits in a gods portfolio might give them some god food. So everytime someone dances it give Lliira some power... Also since X has never been given we can assume that you need a maybe about a 100 worshippers for demigodhood since Shiallia is really only worshiupped in the High Forest and shares that area with other more prominant gods. So the number of followers a god needs might be very low so you can have your massive churches to Tyr and Bane. Also does anybody know the total population of the Realms?
Storm_Silverhand 10-24-07, 01:12 AM	Heya, Beautiful, now why is that story a story about Siamorphe and not Tyr or Torm? This Paladin comes from Tethyr, and serves the crown. She is also the daughter of a noble family, and believes they're noble due to divine right. As she is the only child of these nobles, she has a duty to continue the line. She is also a paladin, and this means she's obliged to serve the realm of Tethyr by riding out to battle evil, and perform other acts of nobility. The two roles that she needs to fulfill are almost mutually exclusive - she can't raise a child while riding out to battle evil. There's a subtle tension at work that your two substitutes just don't fulfill. Tyr is the god of justice, he wouldn't care about succession and a paladin of Tyr might feel more obligated by her duty to justice than to succession. The same noble as a Tyrran may just leave her family in the lurch because she feels her duty to justice and her call to serve Tyr outweighs any family obligation. Torm might be a better substitute, since he's the god of duty... but he'd still be a poor substitute. Why? Because Siamorphe already exists, she's part of the flavor of Tethyr. If you took Siamorphe out of the picture, Tethyr as a nation would loose something. I have a feeling I'm wasting my (figurative) breath here. Let me put it more succinctly... You don't find her interesting, but it just so happens that I do. It's totally subjective. Your interests don't get to dictate to me what I have and don't have in my campaigns, which is why cutting any deity from the already existing pantheon(s) is a bad idea. Now, explain to me why 2-3 pages about Siamorphe's clergy is better than 2-3 pages about Torm's clergy and rituals. Because, for every page we give these gods in Powers and Pantheons or Legends and Lore is a page taken from another god. That's a ridiculous argument. In 3e, Siamorph got a single page write up (no stats). Torm got a three and a half page write up (a page longer than Tymora, who is both more important and more powerful than Torm (Tymora is DvR 14, Torm is DvR 8)), but one and a bit of those pages were stats (half a page alone was just dedicated to the stats of his gold dragon mount). You want to make room for more information about the gods? Cut the stats out completely. We don't need stats for gods.
johnkretzer 10-24-07, 01:14 AM	Basically removing some of the lesser or demigods won't effect the Realms all that much. It will effect a few DMs or FR junkies that love everything that is found in a sourcebook even if it is redundant. Killing a Helm or Mystra on the other hand is a pretty big deal though IMO. The god of nobility should be a lackey of who? We should figure out which Greater god is going to "take in" certain other gods after the planar fallout. I again disagree or rather say you should preface that comment with everybody you know...As I can say that everybody I know like the rich pantheon of the Realms as is. And be just as truthful.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 01:17 AM	I have a feeling I'm wasting my (figurative) breath here. Let me put it more succinctly... You don't find her interesting, but it just so happens that I do. It's totally subjective. Your interests don't get to dictate to me what I have and don't have in my campaigns, which is why cutting any deity from the already existing pantheon(s) is a bad idea. Actually, you'll probably get :mad: for the fact that Siamorphe is an Intermediate goddess in my campaign and one of the most important ones for representing the ups and downs of Lawful Nobility. She picked up all of Helm's old portfolio and is a rival of Torm. I even have her having assumed most of Red Knight's aspects.
johnkretzer 10-24-07, 01:38 AM	Heya, This Paladin comes from Tethyr, and serves the crown. She is also the daughter of a noble family, and believes they're noble due to divine right. As she is the only child of these nobles, she has a duty to continue the line. She is also a paladin, and this means she's obliged to serve the realm of Tethyr by riding out to battle evil, and perform other acts of nobility. The two roles that she needs to fulfill are almost mutually exclusive - she can't raise a child while riding out to battle evil. There's a subtle tension that work that your two substitutes just don't fulfill. Tyr is the god of justice, he wouldn't care about succession and a paladin of Tyr might feel more obligated by her duty to justice than to succession. The same noble as a Tyrran may just leave her family in the lurch because she feels her duty to justice and her call to serve Tyr outweighs any family obligation. Torm might be a better substitute, since he's the god of duty... but he'd still be a poor substitute. Why? Because Siamorphe already exists, she's part of the flavor of Tethyr. If you took Siamorphe out of the picture, Tethyr as a nation would loose something. I have a feeling I'm wasting my (figurative) breath here. Let me put it more succinctly... You don't find her interesting, but it just so happens that I do. It's totally subjective. Your interests don't get to dictate to me what I have and don't have in my campaigns, which is why cutting any deity from the already existing pantheon(s) is a bad idea. That's a ridiculous argument. In 3e, Siamorph got a single page write up (no stats). Torm got a three and a half page write up (a page longer than Tymora, who is both more important and more powerful than Torm (Tymora is DvR 14, Torm is DvR 8)), but one of and a bit of those pages were stats (half a page alone was just dedicated to the stats of his gold dragon mount). You want to make room for more information about the gods? Cut the stats out completely. We don't need stats for gods. It is not a waste of breath(you are typing it after all :D ) but it is a very good point. If a DM wants to limit his/her options then the DM has every right to do so. But why must we pay the price? Also personaly I have always been more attracted to the gods that don't have a large write ups because it allowed my creativity to fill in the blanks...though the gods who do recieve huge write ups asre just as interesting... I'll also point out even with this mass reduction of deities you won't see a 2-3 page write up of any god in 4th(well till they eventualy do write the 4th edition gods book though they have no plans for). Instead all we are getting is maybe 3 paragraphs on the survivng deities(propably none on the gods that are servants.) Here is a link where it was discussed by R. Baker(it is post 877) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=702942&page=30 Though I am glad to hear that the gods won't have stats...until they decide to put out a module that kills them by 30th level characters:rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 02:09 AM	It is not a waste of breath(you are typing it after all ) but it is a very good point. If a DM wants to limit his/her options then the DM has every right to do so. But why must we pay the price? I'm for very detailed and long reaching faiths. The other faiths get in the way of making Kara-Tur versions of Tyr and so on, which would be very interesting to me. That's why in my edition, no matter what 4E says, the Faerun gods will reclaim their ancient rulership of the Kara-Tur people by slaughtering those who stole their populous. ;-) But yes, I think that anyone who assumes DMs are losing anything with less gods are making too much of them. Does the Realms lose anything if you don't have Evangelions and Godzilla stomping through?
johnkretzer 10-24-07, 02:13 AM	I'm for very detailed and long reaching faiths. The other faiths get in the way of making Kara-Tur versions of Tyr and so on, which would be very interesting to me. That's why in my edition, no matter what 4E says, the Faerun gods will reclaim their ancient rulership of the Kara-Tur people by slaughtering those who stole their populous. ;-) Me too. Though I usualy just ignore kara-tur existence...for the most part. Though I like making my own stuff up...or letting my players do it. That way I can take a three paragraph entery and expend it too a full religion.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 02:17 AM	But yes, I actually agree that the Realms doesn't NEED a massive reduction in gods. I was fully glad to have them all assembled in the FR handbook and hugely annoyed to have so many new ones added with just little blocks in F&A. Like Orcus is listed as (I), Undeath, Undead, Monsters. And I'm like Wait, what?! TELL ME MORE! *sigh* Mainly, I was annoyed at having so many pieces but no way to fit them together. Ed Greenwood's world was meant to have the Faerun Pantheon, why dilute that? HOWEVER, suddenly fixing it after so many years of being different is a bit off.
johnkretzer 10-24-07, 02:25 AM	But yes, I actually agree that the Realms doesn't NEED a massive reduction in gods. I was fully glad to have them all assembled in the FR handbook and hugely annoyed to have so many new ones added with just little blocks in F&A. Like Orcus is listed as (I), Undeath, Undead, Monsters. And I'm like Wait, what?! TELL ME MORE! *sigh* I think they did that because those deities were going to highlighted in another soucebook which never materailized...though Orcus did appear I believe in either(or both) Book of Vile Darkness and/or Fiendish Codex vol1. Though we might use the gods very differently I think they are for the most part equaly important to the kind of game we run.
Storm_Silverhand 10-24-07, 02:27 AM	Heya, Actually, you'll probably get :mad: for the fact that Siamorphe is an Intermediate goddess in my campaign and one of the most important ones for representing the ups and downs of Lawful Nobility. She picked up all of Helm's old portfolio and is a rival of Torm. I even have her having assumed most of Red Knight's aspects. Sheesh. I'm sorry for making an assumption based on what you were saying. :rolleyes: You also prove my point... What if Siamorphe does get cut in 4e? (Not likely, I know, since they already made a big song and dance about her moving to Brightwater.) How would you feel? How would it impact your game? Would you change the story to keep her incorporated in your Realms? Lastly, out of sheer curiosity, I have to ask - will you have her move to Brightwater in your campaign?
Storm_Silverhand 10-24-07, 02:32 AM	Heya, But yes, I think that anyone who assumes DMs are losing anything with less gods are making too much of them. Does the Realms lose anything if you don't have Evangelions and Godzilla stomping through? Evangelions and Godzilla don't exist in current Realms lore. So no, it doesn't loose anything.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 02:59 AM	No, I was just going along with your example. You also prove my point... What if Siamorphe does get cut in 4e? (Not likely, I know, since they already made a big song and dance about her moving to Brightwater.) How would you feel? How would it impact your game? Would you change the story to keep her incorporated in your Realms? Probably, the same way as I feel about the fact that I was running a Paladin of Mystra in our campaign along with a Cleric of Helm. Suffice to say, the 4E changes are KINDA relevant to their lives. In the end, we decided by player vote to go ahead with bringing our campaign in line with the setting. Which is why I've been posting so much about our games on these boards.
Fire_Wraith 10-24-07, 06:33 AM	It is not a waste of breath(you are typing it after all :D ) but it is a very good point. If a DM wants to limit his/her options then the DM has every right to do so. But why must we pay the price? I think that sums up a large part of the argument against the 4th Edition changes to the Realms right there.
Zanan 10-24-07, 07:07 AM	Well ... it is quite shocking to note the call for simplicity on here. The less gods the better. All neat and simply, just don't think too much or are made to think too much about it. You see, one really needs his or her time to think about all the spells one needs to choose, or feats and combat tactics! Heck, why don't we skip all gods and just have a divine and arcane weave. You wonder what these Egyptians thought when the Christian missionaries happened by telling them that their God is the best for all puposes in life, no need for the rest. Obviously, some smooth-tongued talking will get you to believe such talk, especially in the dire straits they all were in during that time (400 CE). And then, half a month later when you want to make your way to the temple of Isis for some revels and all, you find a notice to that temple's door (if there was any left) saying: Sorry folks! You don't need that any more! Go home and pray to you-know-who instead!" As in: each and every deity has a concept imbedded in society AND they are not just there to be picked by players and their characters.
Fabius Maximus 10-24-07, 07:58 AM	Simplicity doesn't mean that the gods must be killed off. Several demigods or even lesser powers can be reduced to angels, like the ones in The Book of Exalted Deeds. You can worship them, but they serve a greater god or goddess. Organization is the key to simplicity. We already have several hierarchies in the divine realm: The gods of destruction, the Triad (more or less), and so on. Not to mention the racial pantheons. But the rest is an unorganized sprawl that branched out further and further over time. There is nothing to say about some gods "living alone". But it would be resonable for most of them to organize themselves. Or get organized by force (we're literally speaking about Powers here).
Rauric 10-24-07, 08:42 AM	Heya, Sheesh. I'm sorry for making an assumption based on what you were saying. :rolleyes: You also prove my point... What if Siamorphe does get cut in 4e? (Not likely, I know, since they already made a big song and dance about her moving to Brightwater.) How would you feel? How would it impact your game? Would you change the story to keep her incorporated in your Realms? Lastly, out of sheer curiosity, I have to ask - will you have her move to Brightwater in your campaign? Shaundakul and Helm played a part in my campaign since I had two players with clerics of both faiths. One player who is a Cleric of Helm is no longer able to play in my game so I can use whatever is in the 4E FR book. If they killed off Shaundakul I would just keep him alive. Most of the small gods are easy to do that with. They don't make much of an impact so you can do what you want with them. So whatever they do in the new FR really would not effect my game much or interfere with my ability to DM a game. I don't think they are killing off these "little" gods though. Even the "useless" ones. They are just going to focus on the greater ones. When I say focus I mean use a few pages to give their general info and that is it. I am fine with that because I think the gods are getting to be too much like NPCs themselves. Maybe with the smaller god section will allow them to do a detailed write up of Cormyr. ;)
Fire_Wraith 10-24-07, 11:06 AM	Maybe with the smaller god section will allow them to do a detailed write up of Cormyr. ;) A detailed write up of the sanitized version of Cormyr, sans all of the characters and personalities that made it interesting? No more Alusair, Caladnei, Filfaeril, Myrmeen Lhal, or any number of others... Meh. :rolleyes: I'm sure someone will come along and say that Cormyr is still Cormyr no matter what NPCs are in charge of it, and to an extent, they're right - but I find it increasingly hard to stay interested when there seems to be no hesitation to simply toss aside the characters that I have come to identify the setting with, for seemingly no good reason other than they've become inconvenient. I don't mind change, or progress. I was a little sad to see Azoun IV die, but I understood it. It was a noble sacrifice, and it made sense. He wasn't going to live forever, and at some point the new generation needs to take over. The transition was well-written, and handled with sufficient pathos... that, I have no problem with. It's the Sylune/Halaster treatment we're seeing that really irks me. Sorry for going off topic. :embarrass
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 11:30 AM	As in: each and every deity has a concept imbedded in society AND they are not just there to be picked by players and their characters. Except, that's not how Realms gods work. If Milil dies, we have Oghma.
HVulpes 10-24-07, 11:43 AM	Well, there is a question of balance in the new 4th. Many gods will be reduced in power and that can be okay. Even if they end up more like saints and angels. Yet there should be some reward for choosing these lesser gods. Rich Baker said in his Candlekeep thread in answer to one of my question that they were thinking of making Initate feats for the powers reduced to this state. (He also said they were just starting the mechanics of Realms 4th, after working on the story elements). I am waiting to see what happens, since if I want to add more to the system after getting the 4th books (PH, DMG, MM, FRCG). Like a prestage class or a special blessing/feat for my favourite deity. This way you can continue to ignore the "Useless" gods since they won't be as well developed in the game, yet expand the "Useless" Gods you love. HVulpes
ClobberinTime 10-24-07, 12:44 PM	The one thing I always thought was a mistake was not having the gods be more regional, i.e. Shaundakul is the god of Rangers in regions X,Y,Z and Mielliki in P,D,Q. Also my guess is that the RAW in 4ed will be that unless specifically noted as dead that deity X should now be considered a proxy, demi-deity etc... of anypower that you like them to be.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 01:23 PM	Yes, not necessarilly good story potential. There's a finite number of stories that can be told about the Realms... I disagree. ...and you should stick with the ones whom fill an iconic role in the setting and deserve most to be explored. Again, I disagree, especially with your use of the word "deserve".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 01:25 PM	Yes, I could write the greatest Gwaeron Windstorm set of novels ever created where we discover he's Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris/Christ all rolled into one and has sex with every goddess including Lolth in uncomfortable areas. Is that what's good for the Realms though? That would just prove that you are a bad writer (or at least, a bad Realms writer)--it would NOT prove that there's anything wrong with Gwaeron Windstorm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 01:29 PM	I love Finder. I just think he should be the God of Bards or get a decent Portfolio. Why I advocate killing Milil. By your own standards, it likely should be the reverse. Milil is more important and more widely worshipped in the setting than Finder is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 01:31 PM	Beautiful, now why is that story a story about Siamorphe and not Tyr or Torm? Now, explain to me why 2-3 pages about Siamorphe's clergy is better than 2-3 pages about Torm's clergy and rituals. Because, for every page we give these gods in Powers and Pantheons or Legends and Lore is a page taken from another god. Why don't YOU explain why FINDER is more deserving of lore pages than Milil? Geez, you are such a hypocrite!
Sol_Odlanier 10-24-07, 02:02 PM	Geez, you are such a hypocrite! :gah: Ouch!!!:D
Karsus the Mad 10-24-07, 03:51 PM	Ummm...those four posts could have been done in a single post. That way people won't have to waste the additional 0.3 seconds scrolling past them :bigeyes: Why don't YOU explain why FINDER is more deserving of lore pages than Milil? I suppose the meaning of "deserve" would depend on which one is more profitable (ie: which one has the most fans) :weep:
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 03:55 PM	By your own standards, it likely should be the reverse. Milil is more important and more widely worshipped in the setting than Finder is. No, my standards is Milil isn't extraneous because of OGHMA. Finder at least has some novels behind him.
KismetRose 10-24-07, 03:56 PM	I can't speak for anyone else, but I have come to see Azuth as rather superfluous. If Mystra IS the Weave, then what do we need Azuth for? I've read his information and it's never really convinced me. Helm and Torm sometimes seem a little too close for comfort, but I'm still not sure about that. Not sure if either should die. Gwaeron Windstrom's a demigod on his own, but it seems like he'd make a better servant of Mielikki. I wouldn't be surprised if it were announced that Sune has been accepting worship and granting spells as Sharess for some time, having subsumed her. But why upset the locals if you don't have to? Shiallia would make a better servant than an independent goddess. Ulutiu might as well fade away already. Kiaransalee doesn't seem to have a strong place in the drow pantheon like Vhaeraun does. I'd prefer to see a goddess in place with more of a congregation and more chances to hang in there against Lolth. I think they could make an excellent module about the death of Gorm Gulthyn; his death would leave big things for PCs to do.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 03:58 PM	That would just prove that you are a bad writer (or at least, a bad Realms writer)--it would NOT prove that there's anything wrong with Gwaeron Windstorm. Edit: My point is that the most awesome fanboy book in the world could be written by anyone (I'm a professional writer-even if not a very good one. I'd never write something like that) on ANYTHING. However, we have established characters that could use more development. Finder should have been given a Portfolio or storyline that wouldn't make him extraneous. Instead, the Milil/Oghma/Finder thing has given us TWO unnecessary gods all sharing the same portfolio. At least one can be eliminated.
Vasyek 10-24-07, 05:57 PM	My point is that the most awesome fanboy book in the world could be written by anyone I think there's a disconnect here between what was meant by a good story built around a character. Your point would address the sense in which a good story built around a character meant making that character seem more engaging or important, at least if that was the sole or primary concern behind writing the story. It would not address the sense in which a good story built around a character meant establishing ways in which that character could be viable and distinct while acknowledging, preserving, and hopefully providing new (if not disruptive) outlets for the established roles and dynamics of existing characters, relationships, and so forth. To go with your Finder (since I neither know nor care to know much of anything about Gwaeron) example, the second sense of good story telling would likely begin with considering the ways in which he is distinct from either Oghma or Milil and working from there. The big one would be his association with the cycle of life, which makes him something of an intermediary between Lathander and Kelemvor, and then there's the transformation of art, which not only can be held as distinct from poetry/song/eloquence but potentially lead to interesting conflicts between him and Milil. There's also the Saurials, I suppose, but that seems like the least valuable route to follow.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 06:20 PM	Ummm...those four posts could have been done in a single post. That way people won't have to waste the additional 0.3 seconds scrolling past them :bigeyes: I comment on the posts as I see 'em. I don't think 0.3 seconds is a huge amount of time.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 06:23 PM	No, my standards is Milil isn't extraneous because of OGHMA. Finder at least has some novels behind him. So what? That just means TSR had novels written about him. It doesn't mean Milil is less important to the setting than Finder--far from it. Milil could have tons of books written about him, too. I could argue (using your logic) that Finder is unnecessary because of Milil, or...Oghma.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 06:25 PM	I can't speak for anyone else, but I have come to see Azuth as rather superfluous. If Mystra IS the Weave, then what do we need Azuth for? I've read his information and it's never really convinced me. Azuth is the god of wizards. Gwaeron Windstrom's a demigod on his own, but it seems like he'd make a better servant of Mielikki. He already is a servant of Mielikki.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 06:27 PM	Edit: My point is that the most awesome fanboy book in the world could be written by anyone (I'm a professional writer-even if not a very good one. I'd never write something like that) on ANYTHING. However, we have established characters that could use more development. ...Yet you're also arguing that we should get rid of the gods that are underdeveloped. And, all the gods in question ARE established characters! You are indeed hard to figure out.
Karsus the Mad 10-24-07, 07:00 PM	I comment on the posts as I see 'em. I don't think 0.3 seconds is a huge amount of time. Uhhh...k....as the previous four posts (sound familiar?) teach me.... 0.3 seconds is 3 hundred thousand micro seconds. That's three thousand pico seconds...we're not even scratching the surface of time dilation due to you being in a different location. 0.3 seconds is a HUGE amount of time when multiplied by the number of people (over 1 million) that populate these boards. Please stop wasting my 0.3 seconds with your incessant outbursts. And since you obviously missed the HUMOR I intended with my post, I'll reiterate for you, specifically, I was JOKING around. To paraphrase you, "Sheesh, you're such a humor-killer!" Please stop whining and YELLING (as per standard internet protocol, everytime you capitalize a word, you're YELLING) whenever someone doesn't agree with you. I'm KtM, I'm an inigma!:P Everything I say is for the sake of provoking a humorous reponse:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 07:10 PM	To paraphrase you, "Sheesh, you're such a humor-killer!" That was me?:P Please stop whining and YELLING (as per standard internet protocol, everytime you capitalize a word, you're YELLING) whenever someone doesn't agree with you. You're doing the same thing.:P
hawkinsthedm 10-24-07, 07:45 PM	I personally, do not mind that Helm is dead. I do mind that they have provided no real back story in a manner that makes any sense as to why Tyr killed him.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 07:55 PM	...Yet you're also arguing that we should get rid of the gods that are underdeveloped. And, all the gods in question ARE established characters! You are indeed hard to figure out. If they're going to get rid of the gods, they should get rid of the ones who aren't iconic. I personally would have kept the Faerun Pantheon listed in the Campaign Sourcebook and ditched the rest. That wouldn't have been problematic for me at all. Yes, that means keeping Windstorm and Milil.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 07:57 PM	If they're going to get rid of the gods, they should get rid of the ones who aren't iconic. Define "iconic".
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 08:14 PM	Define "iconic". Gods, I think the Realms should never get rid of: Mystra, Bane, Cyric, Helm, Tyr, Tempus, Talos, Umberlee, Tymora, Beshaba, Mask, Shar, Selune, Lathander, Chauntaea, Azuth, Kelemvor, Sune, Waukeen, Gond, Deneir, Finder, Oghma, Torm, Ilmatar, Lolth, Moradin, C. Silverbeard, Gruumsh, Orcus (the latter five have all been unfortunately retconned into permanently important parts of the story), The Seldarine, Silvanus, Miekkli, Talona, Loviatar, Gargauth, Elistraea, Vhaerun, Kiranshlee, Ghaunadaur, Ubauto, Bahamut (who should have always been part of the Realms), Tiamat, Sseth, Set I'm 50-50 on the Elemental Gods since they could well be huge outsiders without much change. But yes, these are the gods that you need for it to be still "normal" in the Realms. Any of these gods go missing and you have a serious problem (and it hurt me to lose some of the gods that were extraneous) Frankly, we're missing some Gods that I think never should have died (you'll note a few above there). Myrkul, Xvim, and Moander never should have died. Bhaal was much better dead than alive thanks to Baldur's gate.
Karsus the Mad 10-24-07, 08:17 PM	Originally Posted by Karsus the Mad View Post To paraphrase you, "Sheesh, you're such a humor-killer!" That was me? Geez, you are such a hypocrite! It's a loose paraphrase, but it lubes the tube, for my humor, my dear;) [QUOTE]Please stop whining and YELLING (as per standard internet protocol, everytime you capitalize a word, you're YELLING) whenever someone doesn't agree with you. You're doing the same thing. No I'm not (you're so cute!) ;) It's simply iimpossible for me to yell whenever someone disagrees with me. Noone has disagreed with me so far, thus it's a primary impossibility for me to yell at someone else who disagrees with me since such person does not exist insofar as the present.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 08:56 PM	It's a loose paraphrase, but it lubes the tube, for my humor, my dear;) So I see. *grins* No I'm not (you're so cute!) ;) It's simply iimpossible for me to yell whenever someone disagrees with me. Noone has disagreed with me so far, thus it's a primary impossibility for me to yell at someone else who disagrees with me since such person does not exist insofar as the present. HA!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 08:57 PM	Gods, I think the Realms should never get rid of: Mystra, Bane, Cyric, Helm, Tyr, Tempus, Talos, Umberlee, Tymora, Beshaba, Mask, Shar, Selune, Lathander, Chauntaea, Azuth, Kelemvor, Sune, Waukeen, Gond, Deneir, Finder, Oghma, Torm, Ilmatar, Lolth, Moradin, C. Silverbeard, Gruumsh, Orcus (the latter five have all been unfortunately retconned into permanently important parts of the story), The Seldarine, Silvanus, Miekkli, Talona, Loviatar, Gargauth, Elistraea, Vhaerun, Kiranshlee, Ghaunadaur, Ubauto, Bahamut (who should have always been part of the Realms), Tiamat, Sseth, Set Understood, but what makes those gods "iconic"?
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 09:15 PM	Understood, but what makes those gods "iconic"? A number of factors. Their place in the novels, their role as gods for all the classes, their role as gods for most sections of a Pantheon that the common people would worship, and how interwoven into the Forgotten Realms they are as divinities. Sticking with the example of Windstorm, if he was removed, who would suffer for his worship and what stories would have to be changed? That's the biggest question one needs to ask.
GothicDan 10-24-07, 10:32 PM	The key here is this: It's MORE realistic to have a completely huge mass of sprawling, little-interrelated deities throughout an entire continent that predates mass communication, any truly universal languages (Common is more of a trade tongue), and which has seen almost no cultural unification. Prior to the Roman Empire branching out, how many deities do YOU think were worshiped across all of Europe? Now, remember, it's always harder for DMs to make up things entirely when it comes to lore, than it is for them to ignore it - especially if these deities are as 'minor' and 'non-iconic' as SOME are implying.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 10:37 PM	It's MORE realistic to have a completely huge mass of sprawling, little-interrelated deities throughout an entire continent that predates mass communication, any truly universal languages (Common is more of a trade tongue), and which has seen almost no cultural unification. Culture has nothing to do with gods in fantasy. Prior to the Roman Empire branching out, how many deities do YOU think were worshiped across all of Europe? There's been several Roman Empires in Faerun by this point, actually. Furthermore, that example is irrelevant since aside from (roughly) Shar, Jergal, Chauntea, Amauthor/Lathander, Selune, Talos, Moanders, and Mystra....all deities are interlopers. Besides, Saturn and Zeus were "revealed" to have been the same God in the Roman Empire. Just as they "revealed" that to be the case for countless other deities absorbed into the pantheon. In FR, either the gods are different faces of the same Gods or I assume most gods are just killed off. In a setting where worship determines strength, I assume that deities order the conversions/destruction of the followers of every god they can.
johnkretzer 10-24-07, 11:32 PM	Culture has nothing to do with gods in fantasy. Culture has everything thing to do with relgion and the gods in fantasy and the real world. There's been several Roman Empires in Faerun by this point, actually. Really? Name a empire that dominated in the Realms that dominated such a large area of the world for as long as the Roman Empire did. Furthermore, that example is irrelevant since aside from (roughly) Shar, Jergal, Chauntea, Amauthor/Lathander, Selune, Talos, Moanders, and Mystra....all deities are interlopers. Actualy they are very few gods that are interlopers. I can think of Tyr, Silvanus, Miekkli, Loviatar. Are all interloper deities. Coming from the Norse and Finnish pantheons. Silvanus was worshipped in I think Gaul(Gaelic) France(Though he might have been worshipped some where else. Yet they all make your 'Iconic' FR deity list. Besides, Saturn and Zeus were "revealed" to have been the same God in the Roman Empire. Just as they "revealed" that to be the case for countless other deities absorbed into the pantheon. When was this revealed? I am pretty sure it didn't happen in either culture's mythology. Also the Romans stole alot from the Greeks. In FR, either the gods are different faces of the same Gods or I assume most gods are just killed off. In a setting where worship determines strength, I assume that deities order the conversions/destruction of the followers of every god they can. As I pointed out deities don't just get their strength from the number of worshipers. Or Talos should be a demigod at best. Also why assume any such thing?
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 11:40 PM	Really? Name a empire that dominated in the Realms that dominated such a large area of the world for as long as the Roman Empire did. Shoon, Netheril, Imaskari, Elves... Yet they all make your 'Iconic' FR deity list. Yeah? Clearly, Ed thought they were important enough to include in the REAL pantheon. When was this revealed? I am pretty sure it didn't happen in either culture's mythology. Also the Romans stole alot from the Greeks. Uhhhh, Jupiter and so on were Roman Gods BEFORE they met the Greeks. They tried to do the same thing with Egypt's gods (actually, so did the Greeks and its why Alexander the Great claimed to be the son of Zeus-Amon) As I pointed out deities don't just get their strength from the number of worshipers. Or Talos should be a demigod at best. ??? Again, our different portrayals are colliding. Talos is one of the most vastly worshipped gods in my Realms, albeit mostly by warlike barbarian tribes and humanoids. Plus, lots of people throw him prayers so he doesn't burn down their homes. But yeah, the worshippers=power thing is the after-effect of the TOT.
johnkretzer 10-25-07, 12:37 AM	Shoon, Netheril, Imaskari, Elves... None of those came even clost covering Roman territory...or lasted as long. Or in most cases cared about the people who lived in their areas( NBotably the Nertheril or the Elves.) Yeah? Clearly, Ed thought they were important enough to include in the REAL pantheon. As well as a bunch of other deities that fail to be on your iconic list...though I think it is funny that Finder and Cyric made the list...who Ed didn't have in his orginal pantheon. Uhhhh, Jupiter and so on were Roman Gods BEFORE they met the Greeks. They tried to do the same thing with Egypt's gods (actually, so did the Greeks and its why Alexander the Great claimed to be the son of Zeus-Amon) The Christains did similar thing except they usualy turned the conquered peoples gods into demons or devils...shrug. They is a difference though that gods do exist and can get along also they actualy have a say in things. Again, our different portrayals are colliding. Talos is one of the most vastly worshipped gods in my Realms, albeit mostly by warlike barbarian tribes and humanoids. Plus, lots of people throw him prayers so he doesn't burn down their homes. But yeah, the worshippers=power thing is the after-effect of the TOT. I am going with his portrayal from the book. It says he has only a handful of followers, but people pray to him to stay away. This seems to indicate to me that gods get power from people praying to them not just followers. Remember Ed Greenwood's orginal idea for the Realms was for the most part a truely Panthestic world. Very few people follow one god. There are exception to this(Like Zhentil Keep for the most part is a state control religion...though even there other temples to other gods do exist just Bane is considered above them.) The only people who should be considered followers are the those who serve a god directly(I.E. Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Blackguards, and maybe a few very devoted followers who aren't in any divine classes). The whole idea of patron deities was what we got from the ToT. While you might have enjoyed because it 'added' PCs fighting the gods (though before this NPCs were already fighting avatars of the gods... The end of the first Moonshaes trilogy examplfied this which was still 1st edition, but there was other examples of this though out lore). The main problem with ToT was there was nothing to support the fact the gods weren't performing their duties in the lore till Ao said they weren't before hand in the first book.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 01:33 AM	None of those came even clost covering Roman territory...or lasted as long. Or in most cases cared about the people who lived in their areas( NBotably the Nertheril or the Elves.) The Netheril civilization lasted from -3654 to -339. That's 3315 years of existence. The Roman Republic lasted from 509 B.C. to 44 B.C. (Julius Caesar's appointment of dictator). Less than 500 years. The Roman Empire lasted from 27 B.C. to 476. In other words, also less than 500 years. In other words, Rome didn't last a third of the length of the Netherese Empire. I imagine the other countries have similiar dwarfing lengths. As well as a bunch of other deities that fail to be on your iconic list...though I think it is funny that Finder and Cyric made the list...who Ed didn't have in his orginal pantheon. I might prefer the Greybox Gods but I've made ample use of the changes since then. Also, Baldur's Gate negates Bhaal ever staying alive. Awesome game. Plus, I hate Cyric as he's portrayed even if he's well loved in our games. The Christains did similar thing except they usualy turned the conquered peoples gods into demons or devils...shrug. They is a difference though that gods do exist and can get along also they actualy have a say in things. In a literal sense, one should always assume that "Masks" are actually the god having always been that. I am going with his portrayal from the book. It says he has only a handful of followers, but people pray to him to stay away. This seems to indicate to me that gods get power from people praying to them not just followers. I stand corrected, I could have sworn Talos had worshippers. The main problem with ToT was there was nothing to support the fact the gods weren't performing their duties in the lore till Ao said they weren't before hand in the first book. Except, that's an invalid defense. The pre-ToT gods didn't HAVE duties. Bhaal just showed up; tortured your family, killed your children, violated your wife, and then tossed you to his monsters before moving on. What they were worshipped and had portfolios for was almost independent of of what they did. There were notable exceptions but they just indulged themselves.
johnkretzer 10-25-07, 02:23 AM	Except, that's an invalid defense. The pre-ToT gods didn't HAVE duties. Bhaal just showed up; tortured your family, killed your children, violated your wife, and then tossed you to his monsters before moving on. What they were worshipped and had portfolios for was almost independent of of what they did. There were notable exceptions but they just indulged themselves. UM can you point to any souce pre-ToT where this happened... the gods just indulged themselves? Also as I said the Nerthril empire stayed pretty much in their floaty cities and ignored those who lived on the ground...they really did little to shape any culture of the Realms. The Roman Empire on the actualy had long lasting effects on Western Civilzation.
KismetRose 10-25-07, 04:16 AM	Azuth is the god of wizards. Meh. I don't see why wizards would bother with Azuth when they've got the Weave itself to worship. Mystra and Azuth share many of the same domains, too, so it's not like we'd be losing much if Azuth went away. But I fully admit that these are only my feelings about it and nobody else has to agree with me. :)
Alediran 10-25-07, 08:48 AM	Meh. I don't see why wizards would bother with Azuth when they've got the Weave itself to worship. Mystra and Azuth share many of the same domains, too, so it's not like we'd be losing much if Azuth went away. But I fully admit that these are only my feelings about it and nobody else has to agree with me. :) Mystra is preferred by Sorcerers because of her somewhat chaotic nature. Azuth is favored by the more orderly and lawful wizards.
Storm_Silverhand 10-25-07, 09:10 AM	Heya, Meh. I don't see why wizards would bother with Azuth when they've got the Weave itself to worship. Mystra and Azuth share many of the same domains, too, so it's not like we'd be losing much if Azuth went away. But I fully admit that these are only my feelings about it and nobody else has to agree with me. :) This is the reason why the Pantheon shouldn't be drastically cut back. Taking gods away, takes away options for DMs. Leaving them be means an individual DM can remove the gods he doesn't like without impacting on someone else's game.
GothicDan 10-25-07, 09:16 AM	Netheril? Are you kidding me? They've barely had any cultural cohesion whatsoever. Its 'rulers' (the crazy Arcanists) didn't even support their religion, Low Netheril was almost an entire culture whatsoever, there was no 'civil religion,' as in the Roman Empire... Netheril was more like a bunch of floating city states than any proper empire. As to Calimshan? I don't recall their empire being all that expansive. Culture has nothing to do with gods in fantasy. Oh, really? Culture has everything to do with everything in a fantasy setting that tries to aim for verisimilitude. There's been several Roman Empires in Faerun by this point, actually. You either know little about Faerun or the Roman Empire, and I'm not willing to insult you on trying to infer which. Furthermore, that example is irrelevant since aside from (roughly) Shar, Jergal, Chauntea, Amauthor/Lathander, Selune, Talos, Moanders, and Mystra....all deities are interlopers. References, please. Besides, Saturn and Zeus were "revealed" to have been the same God in the Roman Empire. Just as they "revealed" that to be the case for countless other deities absorbed into the pantheon. Okay, I know which culture it is you know little about, now.
Alediran 10-25-07, 09:46 AM	Ow, somebody got Dan's treat...
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 10:19 AM	Oh, really? Culture has everything to do with everything in a fantasy setting that tries to aim for verisimilitude. Gods are literal beings indistinct from culture. Okay, I know which culture it is you know little about, now. Wow, you're arguing with one of the most basic facts of Roman religion. Great way to show off your credentials.
Alediran 10-25-07, 10:24 AM	Gods are literal beings indistinct from culture. Gods are part of culture. The gods of a culture that reveres death are going to be different from a culture that reveres nature. Wow, you're arguing with one of the most basic facts of Roman religion. Great way to show off your credentials. Roma existed after Greek, and it's mythological founders (Romulo and Remo) where Greek. The Roman pantheon copied lost of gods from the Greeks, for example: Jupiter = Zeus Febo = Apollo Mercury = Hermes Venus = Aphrodite Uranus = Cronus Neptune = Poseidon The names of the planets from our solar system where taken from the Roman gods they took from the Greek gods.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 10:39 AM	A number of factors. Their place in the novels, their role as gods for all the classes, their role as gods for most sections of a Pantheon that the common people would worship, and how interwoven into the Forgotten Realms they are as divinities. What's funny is that some of the gods you've mentioned as "iconic" have bit the dust already. So WotC doesn't agree with you. What's "iconic" is different for everyone, and in my opinion a non-factor.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 10:46 AM	This coming from a girl who says that killing them is a mistake? Now whose being hypocritical. :-p Gods are part of culture. The gods of a culture that reveres death are going to be different from a culture that reveres nature. No, because they're not going to worship gods they made up. Only gods that already exist. Roma existed after Greek, and it's mythological founders (Romulo and Remo) where Greek. The Roman pantheon copied lost of gods from the Greeks, for example: The Roman civilization, previously Etruscan, was entirely distinct from Greek with its own religion before it contacted/conquered the Greeks.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 10:47 AM	This coming from a girl who says that killing them is a mistake? Now whose being hypocritical. :-p I never said I agreed with what WotC is doing. Which gods people worship, even in a fantasy setting, has plenty to do with culture.
Alediran 10-25-07, 10:56 AM	You should play Mage: Ascension to understand the concept of Belief gives power to ideas.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 11:40 AM	Which gods people worship, even in a fantasy setting, has plenty to do with culture. You worship what gods exist. You should play Mage: Ascension to understand the concept of Belief gives power to ideas. I preferred Demon: The Fallen. I loathed the idea humanity created their gods.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 11:45 AM	Charles, you haven't disproven what I said.
Alediran 10-25-07, 11:50 AM	I preferred Demon: The Fallen. I loathed the idea humanity created their gods. You may loath it, but it's the truth. Before humanity there where no gods because that idea didn't existed.
hawkinsthedm 10-25-07, 12:24 PM	Culture has nothing to do with gods in fantasy. If you read the thread on why people love the Realms, you will find that many of them simply state "because if feels (felt) real!" Part of the reason it feels real, is because of the pantheons being tied into a messy knot that they did not want to see unraveled. I think that in trying to find ways to simplify the Realms for new players, they should first find out what makes the Realms so real to the fans that it already has. If they keep what makes it real for current fans and get rid of some of the things that do not contribute to making it real, then I think they stand a higher chance of keeping the majority of fans with the Transition (I like to tag on "from the Nine Hells" or "from the Abyss" here ;)). Anywho, I am putting my faith in Ed. I got a promise from him over at Candlekeep that though it will not be the same place, it will still be a place we "grognards" will enjoy. To HawkinstheDM, re grognards: if I can do anything at all about it (and I can), the answer to this is emphatically: YES. 'Twon't be the same, but it WILL be worth "living" and adventuring in. Promise.
Alediran 10-25-07, 12:27 PM	Ed as always is with us.
hawkinsthedm 10-25-07, 12:32 PM	You may loath it, but it's the truth. Before humanity there where no gods because that idea didn't existed. You are coming very close to making this a discussion about real live religion(s). I suggest you do not, since it will likely cause issues not related to this thread. I personally am a very religious man. And I have my own beliefs on if God or gods came before man. So if you want to talk about world religions (and what you believe or don't believe about them) please go find a forum for that. Yes, the Realms pantheons are based loosely on real-world pantheons and religions. However, there are people who actually believe in real world pantheons and religions, so please do not bash their beliefs by stating that their God or gods did not exist before humanity. PS I tried to make this a religion neutral post so I was not promoting any one real-life religion over another.
Alediran 10-25-07, 12:47 PM	You are coming very close to making this a discussion about real live religion(s). I suggest you do not, since it will likely cause issues not related to this thread. I personally am a very religious man. And I have my own beliefs on if God or gods came before man. So if you want to talk about world religions (and what you believe or don't believe about them) please go find a forum for that. Yes, the Realms pantheons are based loosely on real-world pantheons and religions. However, there are people who actually believe in real world pantheons and religions, so please do not bash their beliefs by stating that their God or gods did not exist before humanity. PS I tried to make this a religion neutral post so I was not promoting any one real-life religion over another. My last post was based on WoD, not on RL.
hawkinsthedm 10-25-07, 01:02 PM	My last post was based on WoD, not on RL. Okay, sorry, I missed that in skimming the thread.
SgtAnjay 10-25-07, 02:53 PM	Besides, Saturn and Zeus were "revealed" to have been the same God in the Roman Empire. Well, since the others have commented around this rather than head-on.....for one, Saturn was considered equivalent to Chronos, not Zeus. Jupiter was equivalent to Zeus. Your credentials seem pretty lacking. As far as being revealed to be the same god, they essentially became the same god because the Romans adopted the Greek myths, beliefs, and personalities and applied them to the names of their own deities. Jupiter was indeed indistinguishable from Zeus after the absorbtion of Greek beliefs. This is different from what later happens, wherein it was decreed that different gods were equivalent (in order to promote religious tolerance), but no true absorbtion ever happened. Gods are literal beings indistinct from culture.Since "indistinct" means "not distinct from" I'll assume this was a typo and you meant "distinct". Regardless, the lore itself contradicts you. The Faerunian pantheon is the result of smaller, regional pantheons colliding and combining their spheres of influence. There was the Netherese Pantheon, the Jhaamdathan Pantheon, and others I cant recall off the top of my head. As the cultures interacted, then so did their gods. In the midst of this deific maelstrom interloper deities have also set up shop. In addition.....a warlike culture will give much worship to Tempus. An artistic culture will have lots of worshippers of certain other deities such as Oghma, Milil, Sune, Lliira. Agrarian cultures will be strong in worshippers of Chauntea and Lathander. Cosmopolitan and commercial cultures will have great support for Waukeen. And so on, and so forth. Culture matters. Also...I have no idea what you mean regarding the deities power being tied to amount of worship limiting how many deities are realistic. This society, whether or not someone picks a patron deity, is still pantheistic. You may want to go to a certain deity's afterlife, but in this life, the gods each have their effect. A farmer can wake up, giving prayers to Lathander for the dawn. Go out to his fields and give praise to Chantea, while giving placating respect to Talos so he'll not smite him this day. He may ask for help for his livestock from Shiallia, depending on where he's from, or give up offerings to Auril if her grip is near. Gather up his goods and say a psalm of Shaundakul for speed to the market. At the market, he gives offerings to Waukeen for a good price on his goods. Going home is another psalm of Shaundakul. As night descends and its time for rest and a prayer to Selune. And all along the way supplications to Tymora for good luck for himself and those he likes and tribute to Beshaba keep bad luck away or wish bad luck on those he doesn't like. That's a general list for one farmer, in one day; how many gods could receive worship taking in the population of Faerun? How many gods could receive worship accounting for the whole population across a week, a month, a year? A large pantheon is completely realistic. This is, of course, borne out by actual reality, since real pantheons were easily the size of the Faerunian and much, much larger. Also, you can't simultaneously say "reality doesn't apply because its fantasy" and "a large pantheon isn't realistic". Either reality doesn't apply and it doesn't have to be realistic, or it does have to be realistic, in which case using reality applies.
KismetRose 10-25-07, 04:35 PM	This is the reason why the Pantheon shouldn't be drastically cut back. Taking gods away, takes away options for DMs. Leaving them be means an individual DM can remove the gods he doesn't like without impacting on someone else's game. You're right. I was answering this thread more with what's been in my head for a while but after further thought, there's no harm in providing information for all the gods as they are and then letting DMs decide what to do with them. It wouldn't be horrible if they suggested plots involving the gods, but to axe them willy nilly doesn't help anything. I remember when Vampire the Masquerade went to third edition and there were big metaplot changes. Suddenly, people were told that all the Tremere Antitribu were dead, in a pretty cheesy plot. And what happened if you had a Tremere Antitribu character that you loved and put a lot of time into? It became harder for folks to find games in which they could play their favorites. Since I didn't have such a character and didn't give half a damn what the "canon" said, I wasn't touched too much by it. But now that I think on it, the changes with the gods means changes with player characters, some of which people have been playing for years. And I'd rather not squash people's enjoyment that way. If gods fall in my game, it'll likely be foreshadowed and the PCs will get to see how things are affected. They might even be able to try to help in some cases. And I won't take gods out from under them; I have a cleric and a paladin in my main campaign, and I'm not going to off their gods just to clear some names off the roster. There'll be logical and powerful reasons for dangers to the gods, too. The gods will act and react as befits their characters and I'll give them all the due consideration that major NPCs deserve. I can't rely on the printed books to do these things for me, though; I'm coming to see that.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 10-25-07, 04:40 PM	I'd like to see a story on Sheravash, the Drow Slayer. Or something, and even though he is a minor player i dont want to see him go, i meen what else am i gona play so i can kill drow in the mezbo box set.
elondir 10-25-07, 04:49 PM	As long as Tyr, Bane, Loviatar, and Sharess are still in, I'm good to go.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 06:20 PM	Well, since the others have commented around this rather than head-on.....for one, Saturn was considered equivalent to Chronos, not Zeus. I made a typo. Given I don't think that Roman/Greek religion is really relevant to this conversation except as an example, I'll not bother responding to anything else regarding the issue. A large pantheon is completely realistic. A large pantheon is quite realistic. Beyond the Faerun pantheon, I think there shouldn't be any else on the planet though. The pantheons outside of them are Not-Realms pantheons. Even Kara-Tur should have a Forgotten Realms flavor, just a Asian-themed Forgotten Realms flavor.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 06:28 PM	Charles, you haven't disproven what I said. Did you make a point that had to be refuted? Cultures can't make gods. You could worship the Spaghetti monster in Faerun but no matter how feverent or how much you believe, he's not going to appear. Cyric is your god whether you like it or not because he's an actual deity and you are subject to his power. In a pantheistic setting, your culture is IRRELEVANT in the same way your vote and democratic leanings is irrelevant to the King. You can venerate as many gods as you want but there's still only X gods. So culture means nothing because there's a finite, set, number of gods to choose from. The people of Lavendertown could throw out all the priests and become atheists tomorrow in Faerun. In fact, I have several cities in Faerun that did so. They were all horribly destroyed. Why? Because with no divine protection, Talos slaughtered them on a whim. That's why culture means nothing to the gods. Edit:I keep getting the weirdest feeling we're talking about different things. You may loath it, but it's the truth. Before humanity there where no gods because that idea didn't existed. Yes, instead godlike Angels and Demons ruled over creation in the WoD. Edit 2: But yes, my take on the gods in the Realms is that I like them interventionalist and human. I think of them as a very important part of the flavor of the Realm and that a lot of plots will need to have their reactions taken into account because they're going to meddle in just about everything. I've had some of my views re-examined by this thread and I've decided to withdraw my account for having all Non-Human Gods removed from my campaign. Instead, all of the Non-Human racial pantheons will remain in my games (thanks to you Rino and johnkretzer). I'll just dictate that the Racial pantheons are on the decline compared to the Faerun pantheon. That way my players won't think it strange when they see my usual Umberlee worshiping Kuo-To and Bane worshiping Hobgoblins. So yes, I concede the argument.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 06:49 PM	Did you make a point that had to be refuted? *ahem* I was just saying I didn't think your argument held any water.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 07:09 PM	*ahem* I was just saying I didn't think your argument held any water. I'm just saying, how is Lathander affected if his worshipers are all Demon sexing CE types? Other than being bitterly disappointed?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:15 PM	I'm just saying, how is Lathander affected if his worshipers are all Demon sexing CE types? They aren't. And Lathander certainly would never grant priest spells to such people, either, going by the rules. So I would say he does care about the morals of his followers.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 07:17 PM	They aren't. And Lathander certainly would never grant priest spells to such people, either, going by the rules. So I would say he does care about the morals of his followers. I'm sure he does. :confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:36 PM	I'm sure he does. :confused: You're confused? That makes two of us then. You had a faulty premise, and I explained why that would never be the case.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 07:59 PM	You're confused? That makes two of us then. You had a faulty premise, and I explained why that would never be the case. But you haven't rebutted anything. All you said is "Culture is too important" How? Lathander will still be a NG god no matter what his worshipers are like.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 08:16 PM	But you haven't rebutted anything. All you said is "Culture is too important" No, that's not what I said.;)
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 08:42 PM	No, that's not what I said.;) Which gods people worship, even in a fantasy setting, has plenty to do with culture. Which, really is unimportant. People worship that gods that exist. Good or bad, people still worship Talos. Oh well, you've raised good points and I've conceded the important ones anyway. Nevermind.
GothicDan 10-25-07, 10:13 PM	The Roman civilization, previously Etruscan, was entirely distinct from Greek with its own religion before it contacted/conquered the Greeks. Reply With Quote Incorrect. Etruscan religion was almost entirely influenced by the Greeks (Tinia -> Zeus, among other things - and the art is largely direct copying, such as a red clay urn of Heracles defeating the Cyclopes), and the Latins were a separate culture which later integrated with the Etruscans. There's definite evidence in an Etruscan dynasty in early pre-Republican Latin culture, due to the architectural designs of early Roman buildings, and there are some holdovers from Etruscan culture, primarily reminiscent in religion, but your statement is a gross, incorrect oversight. I'll let my 15 page paper I wrote last year discussing Roman and Etruscan cultural and religious interactions (focusing on the Veii vs. Rome war) speak of my credentials, as well as my personal experience in translating fun things like Livius Andronicus, Plutarch, and Livy. And then there's the original piece of 5th C. BCE Etruscan art, a nice mirror, in which I wrote an 8 page Ancient Art paper after seeing it in person, explaining why I felt it depicted Fufluns, the Etrurian (who were from Asia Minor, by the way, based on numerous Etrurian scripts scattered across the Cyclades) version of Dionysus. I know a bit about Roman religion - and Etruscan vs. Roman is my specialty.
boards 10-25-07, 10:50 PM	I'll let my 15 page paper I wrote last year discussing Roman and Etruscan cultural and religious interactions (focusing on the Veii vs. Rome war) speak of my credentials, as well as my personal experience in translating fun things like Livius Andronicus, Plutarch, and Livy. Do you have this on the net anywhere? Sounds like it would be an interesting read.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 02:26 AM	All you said is "Culture is too important" How? mmm....Let me see if I can explain it better...because I don't think we disagree per se but I think we are looking at from very different p.o.v.s So let me explain it this way a culture would reflect the deity that they worship. Culture would be a reflection of what gods are worshipped where. For instance Umberlee would not as many if any worshippers in a landlock city. Sure she still exists but that really doesn't matter to them. They have no interest. This true for a vast magority of the gods. Also they are different cultural values that would make that god less important. For instance a barbarian culture(meaning a more primitive culture) wouldn't have much use for for a god of knowledge or a god of invention. Also the Faerun Pantheon isn't finite as you have said some gods are made to cover the advance of the culture(such as the Red Knight...or even the gods of art as culture advance to the point people have time to pursue such activities) While you might disagree that culture defines the gods it does help shape them and have it's effect on them.
Alediran 10-26-07, 09:26 AM	And to add to john, many FR gods have being subtly changed by the believes of their followers. Tyr changed from what he was in the Norse pantheon to what he is in the Faerūnian pantheon because of belief.
hawkinsthedm 10-26-07, 11:50 AM	I just hope that in introducing some new gods (which I think Rich mentioned in the Ask the FR Authors/Designers thread) that they do no try to introduce gods from the pantheons of RW religions. Since the new Ravenloft book is going to feature a civil war (or some sort of RL war) vet, it makes me leery that they will be trying to stick RW gods into the Realms.
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 01:04 PM	And to add to john, many FR gods have being subtly changed by the believes of their followers. Tyr changed from what he was in the Norse pantheon to what he is in the Faerūnian pantheon because of belief. Tyr was always a LG god in D&D.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 01:47 PM	Tyr was always a LG god in D&D. True, but within LG (or any alignment) they are a large amount of varience.
SgtAnjay 10-26-07, 05:38 PM	Beyond the Faerun pantheon, I think there shouldn't be any else on the planet though. The pantheons outside of them are Not-Realms pantheons. Even Kara-Tur should have a Forgotten Realms flavor, just a Asian-themed Forgotten Realms flavor. The Faerunian Pantheon is not an ancient construct dating back to the beginning of time, even if some of the deities in it are that old. The Faerunian Pantheon is several smaller regional pantheons that combined. So if the regional pantheons that eventually formed the Faerunian Pantheon existed, why wouldn't other regional pantheons exist?
Zanan 10-26-07, 05:56 PM	Incorrect. Etruscan religion was almost entirely influenced by the Greeks (Tinia -> Zeus, among other things - and the art is largely direct copying, such as a red clay urn of Heracles defeating the Cyclopes), and the Latins were a separate culture which later integrated with the Etruscans. There's definite evidence in an Etruscan dynasty in early pre-Republican Latin culture, due to the architectural designs of early Roman buildings, and there are some holdovers from Etruscan culture, primarily reminiscent in religion, but your statement is a gross, incorrect oversight. I'll let my 15 page paper I wrote last year discussing Roman and Etruscan cultural and religious interactions (focusing on the Veii vs. Rome war) speak of my credentials, as well as my personal experience in translating fun things like Livius Andronicus, Plutarch, and Livy. And then there's the original piece of 5th C. BCE Etruscan art, a nice mirror, in which I wrote an 8 page Ancient Art paper after seeing it in person, explaining why I felt it depicted Fufluns, the Etrurian (who were from Asia Minor, by the way, based on numerous Etrurian scripts scattered across the Cyclades) version of Dionysus. I know a bit about Roman religion - and Etruscan vs. Roman is my specialty. Well. The Romans did indeed incorporate many a people's religion and mythology ... some may say copied. Sometimes a straight 100% act, sometimes only concepts or just the mythology behind a certain figure associated with an "originally" Roman deity. Obviously, it is hard to tell when it comes to these very early days of the Romans and the Etruscans, given the scant evidence there is and the sources we have. To say that the Roman's religion was taken directly from the Etruscans is a bit too heavy though, so I concur with GD here. (Any chance that I can have a look at that 8 / 15 pagers too? Just writing a book on the Roman deities of Britannia, you know, and any new insight is helpful.)
GothicDan 10-26-07, 08:00 PM	I'd actually have uploaded the papers just to show you guys, if my hard drive hadn't crashed... :/ But as a hint: Plutarch absolutely rocks on this subject.