Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seans 01-10-07, 12:22 PM	I am reading War of the Spider Queen series at the moment and they’re an excellent read. While reading book 1 I thought about the complexity of the world Salvatore created and how hard it must be for some these authors to create a world of bountiful paradoxes and relationships that based upon “social rise into an evil caste system”. At times I want to praise the Drow (Pharaun and Ryld especially) and the next second I think it might be good to see their society destroyed.[*SBLOCK] I AM ONLY NOW FINISHING BOOK 1 SO NO SPIOILERS PLEASE!!!!![*/SBLOCK] However, it does seem that Pharaun and Ryld are in a sense bonding outside the common dysfunctional relationships in the Drow city. So, these stories really do challenge me, in a sense, because they are like nothing I have read before. I liken them to some of the great novels I have read in my life, but at the same time I find myself sickened by them as well. A great read and highly recommend. What do you fine folks think of the books?
DreamStalker 01-10-07, 12:24 PM	I enjoyed them personally. Also, could you please put up a spoiler warning in the thread title or put the brunt of your book information in an SBLOCK or SPOILER?
Seans 01-10-07, 12:27 PM	I enjoyed them personally. Also, could you please put up a spoiler warning in the thread title or put the brunt of your book information in an SBLOCK or SPOILER? Sorry for my ignorance but how do you do that?
DreamStalker 01-10-07, 12:36 PM	hit the edit button on your first post. To add in SBLOCK code type in [*SBLOCK] before where the spoilers begin and [/*SBLOCK] after the spoilers end minus the asterixes. The asterixes were to keep the code from being used in my example. Everything between those two bits of code will be put put in a drop down button.
Poison_Dusk 01-10-07, 04:20 PM	I loved the sreies. I found myself connected to them, and wanting them to succed. If you like book 1, you will love the rest. Oh, and remove the * from your [/sblock]s
Zanan 01-10-07, 04:39 PM	To get a first impression of drow society at work, well, at least with regard to the ongoings amongst the noble drow, I'd recommend reading Homeland by RAS. And while we are at him, he did not created the drow, that was Gary Gygax. Ed Greenwood took them into his Forgotten Realms setting (The Drow of the Underdark) and worked close with RAS on the Menzoberranzan boxed set. Beware that be default, discussing novel and their quality etc. has to follow strict guidelines. Talk society and people as presented in the novel and you are fine. Talk on novel and author quality and the WizOs will see to this thread.
Seans 01-11-07, 12:08 PM	To get a first impression of drow society at work, well, at least with regard to the ongoings amongst the noble drow, I'd recommend reading Homeland by RAS. And while we are at him, he did not created the drow, that was Gary Gygax. Ed Greenwood took them into his Forgotten Realms setting (The Drow of the Underdark) and worked close with RAS on the Menzoberranzan boxed set. Beware that be default, discussing novel and their quality etc. has to follow strict guidelines. Talk society and people as presented in the novel and you are fine. Talk on novel and author quality and the WizOs will see to this thread. I have read the "Dark Elf Trilogy". I do like their society very much and it reminds me a great deal of a class I did in "Christian History". The similarities of how the thirst for power is the Drow's weakness is the same in Christian history, kinda of freaky. Question, if one was to encounter a band of Drow's while playing would it be easier to negotiate with them and feed off their ego, much like a dragons?
MarkusTay63 01-11-07, 09:59 PM	No, they are, for the most part, immune to human flattery. That would be like a worm telling you that you are quite clever. They respect strength, groveling and fawning will get you killed (actually, everything will get you killed, but at least if you amuse them with a show of strength they may only make you a slave). By the same token, they will be even less inclined to listen to a Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfling (although the last might make a cute pet). A Faerie Elf showing them respect may work. As much as they despise the surface Elves they still consider them worthy adversaries. The ONLY race that would actually stand a decent chance of pulling that off against a Drow are the Illithid. The dark Elves will actually admit that they consider the Mind Flayers equals. In Drow that means they are actually 'nervous' about them ('nervous' being as close to scared as Drow get). The Drow do not even admit that other Drow are their equals most of the time, so this tiny piece of canon speaks volumes.
Seans 01-11-07, 11:22 PM	No, they are, for the most part, immune to human flattery. That would be like a worm telling you that you are quite clever. They respect strength, groveling and fawning will get you killed (actually, everything will get you killed, but at least if you amuse them with a show of strength they may only make you a slave). By the same token, they will be even less inclined to listen to a Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfling (although the last might make a cute pet). A Faerie Elf showing them respect may work. As much as they despise the surface Elves they still consider them worthy adversaries. The ONLY race that would actually stand a decent chance of pulling that off against a Drow are the Illithid. The dark Elves will actually admit that they consider the Mind Flayers equals. In Drow that means they are actually 'nervous' about them ('nervous' being as close to scared as Drow get). The Drow do not even admit that other Drow are their equals most of the time, so this tiny piece of canon speaks volumes. So, if they are faced in combat the best way to prevail is to fight your @#$% off and hope for the best? I am really growing to like the Drow world. Of course there would be some measure of thought in the whole process, but ones strength in skills would be the factor in victory. Could a false display of weakness be an instrutment used to defeat the drow? As an example, one who might be quite strong portrays themself as a bit ignorant and weak, but at the right moment unleashes hell on the Drow, does that work?
Zanan 01-12-07, 04:51 AM	Do note that novels don't paint the overall picture. Most of the Drizzt novels, as well as the WotSQ stuff revolves around the ruling houses, nobles and the like. Those make up 5 to 10% of drow population. This is not to say that the rest of the society works much different, as most Lolthite drow live in such houses or similar structured society. But we have no real clue how other drow cities work, such as magocratic ruled Sshamath, or Kiaransaleen-ruled V'elddrinnsshar.
Bonzai 01-13-07, 12:26 AM	All I am going to say is to read the rest of the series. Pharuan and Ryld were two of my favorite characters (perhaps I should have a spoiler block there). Although I run the risk of violating the rules, i am a bit disapointed as to how one of the characters were treated in the 3rd book. But, as far as drow society is concerned, the logic is spot on. The series, and some of Salvatore's works really brings home, that despite the lothite brain washing, Drow really are elves at heart. And that is the tragedy. Every drow begins life as any elf would. But through the harsh traditions, and ruthless society, the drow are molded into their evil ways. Some rare few have the internal strength to break the mold. However most of them don't have the strength of will to do so.
Zanan 01-13-07, 04:12 AM	The series, and some of Salvatore's works really brings home, that despite the lothite brain washing, Drow really are elves at heart. And that is the tragedy. Every drow begins life as any elf would. But through the harsh traditions, and ruthless society, the drow are molded into their evil ways. Some rare few have the internal strength to break the mold. However most of them don't have the strength of will to do so. So far I have met about two drow who remotely remind me of elves. That would be Drizzt and Liriel. And they are, IMHO, nowhere near the average drow. And, just in case you forgot ;), it's not just Lolthites who wash brains. Then again, it is not even brainwashing. For if it was, there would be an underlying thought that there is something to be washed in the first place. IMHO, drow are brought up in a certain society that follows certain beliefs. This belief does what it think is the best way forward and in this respect, any other society of Faerūn, especially if backed up or driven by a faith does so too. The only thing that sets drow society apart from the majority of other societies is the deeply religious background of the power structure. But as far as we know, life in a magocracy like Sshamath moves much along the same lines as in Menzoberranzan, even without the teachings of Lolth et al. So one might claim that if there is something that "corrupts" the drow, it is their strife for power.
Seans 01-13-07, 09:37 AM	All I am going to say is to read the rest of the series. Pharuan and Ryld were two of my favorite characters (perhaps I should have a spoiler block there). Although I run the risk of violating the rules, i am a bit disapointed as to how one of the characters were treated in the 3rd book. But, as far as drow society is concerned, the logic is spot on. The series, and some of Salvatore's works really brings home, that despite the lothite brain washing, Drow really are elves at heart. And that is the tragedy. Every drow begins life as any elf would. But through the harsh traditions, and ruthless society, the drow are molded into their evil ways. Some rare few have the internal strength to break the mold. However most of them don't have the strength of will to do so. Ryld and Phauran, in a sense, remind me of Drizzt, but as deep as I am into the series my comments are limited. Ryld is my favorite character and if he survives I'll hope they'll write adventures focused on him. Has the Drow society ever been conquered by another race from the land of the sun?
Bonzai 01-13-07, 12:21 PM	Aside from Salvator's characters, Liriel, and the WotSQ characters, what other books have focused on Drow as characters, instead of as random villians? If there are, I will check it out. From those books, Drow are portrayed as victims of their own society. Fear drives them to be like they are. It begins with the fear of Loth. A Drow's soul belongs to Loth. More than likley that means an afterlife of pain and torment, unless you can some how get in her good graces. The only way to be free of her is to reject her completley, but most fear her too much to do that. Since Loth is a vindictive and blood thirsty Goddess, to apease her you must be willing to knife a fellow drow in the back. Now you are afriad of your own people. You could try and leave, but the whole outside world hates you, and you would be on your own. Few drow have the courage to do that. So they band together, even though that means that could be betrayed at any minute. They are caught in Loth's web, and only a few are strong enough to break loose. Drow have a lot in comon with elves. Including a great appreciation of beauty. Just listen to them talk about Menzobornzan and Narbondel. They take pride in it's beauty. Those that make it to the surface, and can get past their initial fear, and problems with the sun, usually exibit an appreciation of Nature as well. All the Elven traits start to surface, leading me to believe that they were always there, only repressed. To me that makes them a tragic race.
Seans 01-15-07, 08:34 AM	Aside from Salvator's characters, Liriel, and the WotSQ characters, what other books have focused on Drow as characters, instead of as random villians? If there are, I will check it out. From those books, Drow are portrayed as victims of their own society. Fear drives them to be like they are. It begins with the fear of Loth. A Drow's soul belongs to Loth. More than likley that means an afterlife of pain and torment, unless you can some how get in her good graces. The only way to be free of her is to reject her completley, but most fear her too much to do that. Since Loth is a vindictive and blood thirsty Goddess, to apease her you must be willing to knife a fellow drow in the back. Now you are afriad of your own people. You could try and leave, but the whole outside world hates you, and you would be on your own. Few drow have the courage to do that. So they band together, even though that means that could be betrayed at any minute. They are caught in Loth's web, and only a few are strong enough to break loose. Drow have a lot in comon with elves. Including a great appreciation of beauty. Just listen to them talk about Menzobornzan and Narbondel. They take pride in it's beauty. Those that make it to the surface, and can get past their initial fear, and problems with the sun, usually exibit an appreciation of Nature as well. All the Elven traits start to surface, leading me to believe that they were always there, only repressed. To me that makes them a tragic race. They are a tragic race. I was thinking how to describe them to my workout partner who just read the "Dark Elf Trilogy" and them being a tragic race is an excellent discription. How would you react if they happened upon a "redemptive" life and reemerged on the surface?
Zireael 01-15-07, 08:46 AM	I personally think that there are 2 great pairs in WotSQ: Pharaun&Aliisza (showing more demonic part of the drow) and Ryld&Halisstra (showing more elven part of them). After all, the drow are just dark elves, with demonic goddess over them. But I don't think they're tragic. To be tragic, they'd have to be aware of that, to seek lost things... and they don't. They're just another happy race as elves or anything. But it's good they're presented not only as villains, but also as deep, focused characters.
Seans 01-15-07, 10:44 AM	I have read various statements about the Dark Elfs going to the Underdark, but is their material out there that gives the full history of their move into the underdark and acceptance of Loth?
Zanan 01-15-07, 12:58 PM	Try Cormanthyr* (free download at the main site), Demihuman Deities, Underdark, and Lost Empires of Faerūn* ... skip Races of Faerūn. *Must haves!
MarkusTay63 01-15-07, 02:16 PM	I have read various statements about the Dark Elfs going to the Underdark, but is their material out there that gives the full history of their move into the underdark and acceptance of Loth?Evermeet, it's not just a novel, it's also a sourcebook (credit for that line goes to Lord Karsus). The Illythiri were just as other Elves once. It was the tradition of Aelves of Fäerie to participate in battle-oriented games; that BTW from a VERY old canon source. The Elves had many other pursuits as well, but the Illythiiri excelled at gladitorial-style games. Over tens of thousands of years this natural Elven Competitiveness became a driving force amongst the Dark Elves, so much so that the other Elves were put-off by their ferocity. Even amongst Illythiiri mages and priests, the desire to 'beat the competition' overode their natural Elven tendencies toward cooperation. All Elves have these feelings to some extent (pride), but to the Illythiiri it had become a way of life. Killing a rival in the arena rather then showing mercy, stealing another's magical notes, even vying for a God's favors all became part of their culture. It was into this mix that the Evil of Lolth (and to a lesser extent Vaehrun and Ghaunader) was thrown; after that it was just a simple thing to tip them over the edge into the downward spiral of Evil. When Corellon put their fate into the hands of Lolth, he denied them the use of high magics reserved for worshippers of the Seldarine, so they had to seek such magics elsewhere. Theirs IS a tragic fate, but one that was brought down upon themselves as surely as the hand of Corellon; had they not already been ripe for evil they would have never succumbed to Lolths manipulations. But they were not the first Alfar to be cast out of Fäerie...... ;)
Zanan 01-15-07, 03:21 PM	MarkusTay63 ... I think I remember that elven history on Faerūn did not exactly look like as you present it here. Corellon named Araushnee patron deity of the dark elves back then (as they were of her kin), before (and for a while thereafter) she was the Weaver of Destiny for all elves. Her banishment and the Descent of the Dark Elves (not yet drow) are not linked, even though her taking over of the dark elves' religion eventually lead to the other elven races pact against the Ilythiiri. The eventual Descent of (all) the Dark Elves turned the latter into drow, who are still synonymously called dark elves today. As for competition for power et al, the sun elves didn't lack behind either and while the dark elven Ilythiiri were warlike, the sun elves were ruthless. But just wait till Gothic Dan shows up and enriches this discussion. ;)
Bonzai 01-16-07, 06:41 PM	That part always kinda confused me about the drow. The Sun elves started the crown war. The Sun elves mated with demons. The Sun elves purpetrated the dark disaster. Yet the drow get attacked, and then get a little fixated on revenge and retaliation, and then all the elves are like, "Whoa there, thats a little much". It seems to me that the Sun elves are responsible for far more evil than the drow ever dreamed of. Tack on the sundering, the destruction of Jhadamth, the murder of the Coranol of Myth Dranor's heir.... What have the drow done to come close?
MarkusTay63 01-17-07, 02:23 AM	The Dark Elves were not 'Drow' until the decent (although I have seen at least one source that refers to them thus). The Dark Elves were already on an unsavory path before Lolth became re-involved with them, but perhaps no more so then the Gold Elves. The difference is, before being reduced to the status of Ta'nari she held the portfolio that included patronship of the Dark Elves. She never held any malice toward that group, but hated the other three (Gold, Silver, and Green) simply because Corellon was THEIR patron. The precedent set in Evermeet is that an Elf, ANY ELF, that seeks power beyond or outside of that which can be accomplished with Elven Magic WILL both attract and treat with beings that are contrary to their nature. Therefore, the only reason why the Gold Elves didn't turn to Lolth themselves is because SHE didn't want to deal with THEM. They dealt with Dragons, Ghaunader, Vhauren, etc... but the Dark Elves were able to go over all of their heads and go to the 'source'. As had been said, there have been numerous cataclysmic mistakes by Gold Elves, but they weren't cursed because Corellon was partial to them. I suppose that probably makes him something of a bigot. Two things bother me; that at least two gods were specifically said to be 'less powerful' then the Demon lord Lolth (something that should be mechanically impossible), and that Corellon NEVER gave away the stewardship of the dark Elves to any other Seldarine. The first seems to fall under the all-to-prevalent 'creative license' of authors, but the second appears to ba a MAJOR oversight on the part of Corellon. By not giving the portfolio away to someone else (or taking it himself) he left the door WIDE OPEN for the return of Lolth as a god. If I were a dark Elf, I would have felt slighted by the Seldarine myself. Perhaps this 'disappointment' in the divine help them down their dark path? The only other thing that bothers me about the novel (which I am still working on) is the TOTAL inappopriate SPELLJAMMER battle. I'm not saying that stuff doesn't exist, but I felt it was kind of out-of-place in a story of high-fantasy. A good deal of the book is about the Elven Myths, and outer-space is a little too Sci-fi for the theme. Still an excellent book however, and I stand by my statement: Lolth may not have HAD control of ALL the dark Elves at the time they were cursed, but by allowing the Illythiiri to be cursed indiscrimanatly he drove them ALL from the arms of the seldarine (including those dark Elves who had fled to other worlds prior to the destruction of Tintageer). There were Elves who never even heard of Faerun who became cursed, so I think Corellon botched that pretty bad. Drow are no less Elven, they just never had the same choices as their surface cousins (or, perhaps, had TOO MANY choices). Liriel Baenre has a far nobler spirit then Kymil Nimesin could ever hope to have, and achieved hers despite her upbringing. To me, that makes her that much more the hero.
Zanan 01-17-07, 04:19 AM	That part always kinda confused me about the drow. The Sun elves started the crown war. The Sun elves mated with demons. The Sun elves purpetrated the dark disaster. Yet the drow get attacked, and then get a little fixated on revenge and retaliation, and then all the elves are like, "Whoa there, thats a little much". It seems to me that the Sun elves are responsible for far more evil than the drow ever dreamed of. Tack on the sundering, the destruction of Jhadamth, the murder of the Coranol of Myth Dranor's heir.... What have the drow done to come close? Well, they slaughtered their fair amount of elves? Mostly in direct retaliation for the Descent. Obviously, the Ilythiiri were using tactics and strategies during their wars (Crown Wars et al) that were "against" the elven ethos, dogmas and the like - e.g. dragons, fire, dark magic, evil deities. In any case, the drow's hatred of their surface kin has got a solid basis, while IMHO the modern day's elven hatred for the drow usually comes from these retaliation strikes the drow have performed ever since the Descent. Not that the elven ancestor's laid the seeds ... MarkusTay63 ... you should (occasionally) write an "IMHO" amongst your comments, as people might accept all your opinions as canon lore. Especially info from Evermeet is somewhat tainted by its novelesque freedom and Lost Empires of Faerūn (based primarily on Cormanthyr) sets most of the history related stuff into a correct context. that at least two gods were specifically said to be 'less powerful' then the Demon lord Lolth (something that should be mechanically impossible), and that Corellon NEVER gave away the stewardship of the dark Elves to any other Seldarine. As for Lolth ... she was a Lesser Deity when Corellon banished her. He turned her into a tanar'ri ... apparently for the better part of a day or two ... but she did not only reclaim divinity (see FC I for some semi-related information on how to achieve this) soon enough, but also conquered a whole layer of the Abyss and rose to the status of intermediate power/deity within 25,000 years - within Realmspace that is. Note that Core Lore goes more or less out of the window here - or is at least only of peripheral importance. Recently, she changed her FR Cosmology realm and removed it from the Abyss to create her own plane. Common opinion is that she assumed the status of a greater deity as well. Demihuman Deities has the info on her patronage of the dark elves ... As Araushnee, Lolth was once a lesser power of the Seldarine and the consort of Corellon Larethian. She was the patron of artisans, the goddess of elven destiny, and -l ater, by Corellon's decree - the keeper of those elves who shared her darkly beautiful features. The Weaver of Destiny bore Corellon twin godlings - Vhaeraun and Eilistraee - before she turned against her lover and betrayed him. Do note that Arausnhee / Lolth always had the looks of the modern day drow.
MarkusTay63 01-17-07, 06:21 PM	MarkusTay63 ... you should (occasionally) write an "IMHO" amongst your comments, as people might accept all your opinions as canon lore. Especially info from Evermeet is somewhat tainted by its novelesque freedom and Lost Empires of Faerūn (based primarily on Cormanthyr) sets most of the history related stuff into a correct context. You are quite correct, most of what I write is from a "as I see it" point of view. Everything I write is based on stuff I read (and I read EVERYTHING, including ancient pre-AD&D TSR lore), but is is filtered through MY perceptions, so take it with a grain of salt. ;) As for Lolth ... she was a Lesser Deity when Corellon banished her. He turned her into a tanar'ri ... apparently for the better part of a day or two ... but she did not only reclaim divinity (see FC I for some semi-related information on how to achieve this) soon enough, but also conquered a whole layer of the Abyss and rose to the status of intermediate power/deity within 25,000 years - within Realmspace that is. Note that Core Lore goes more or less out of the window here - or is at least only of peripheral importance. Recently, she changed her FR Cosmology realm and removed it from the Abyss to create her own plane. Common opinion is that she assumed the status of a greater deity as well. Demihuman Deities has the info on her patronage of the dark elves ... Do note that Arausnhee / Lolth always had the looks of the modern day drow.I know she was patroness of the Dark Elves, that was my point. After she was cast out of Arvandor Corellon NEVER re-assigned the Dark Elves to anyone. If I were them I would have taken that as a slight, or at least felt that Corellon meant for us to continue venerating her as our 'patron' IMHO. I also am aware that there were Dark Elves since the beginning (along with Elves of nearly every other color) and that Araushnee looked liked them. This indicates to me that she must have originally been one of them, else why would she look different then the other Seldarine? This is supported by the fact that the novel goes as far as to say that she hated Corellon because he "gave her everything she had", and even mentions the fact that he gave her some of his 'power'. Canon shmanon, the novel says that she was a DEMON LORD (DvR 0) when Ghaunader tried to take her power, and he LOST TO HER even though he was a god! It also unfortunately never got into WHY Kiaransalee obeys her, even though SHE TOO was a godess when Lolth was not. According to the book, Lolth was a mere Demon for more then two days (millenia in fact). I realize that Elaine did an outstanding job of trying to blend together all of the disparate lore and conflicting dates, and for that I commend her. In fact, I even forgive her for the Spelljamming, now that I am past that part. She managed to find a plausable reason as to 'why' Evermeet has them, which I assume she felt was neccesary since they are mentioned in several canon sources. I would have personally ignored them completely, but I have to give her credit for taking so many different peoples concepts and fusing them into a viable whole. Definately a 'must-read' for any FR fan, and I don't even like surface Elves. :P
Zanan 01-17-07, 06:50 PM	Don't make too much of her being a "Demon Lord" while Ghaunadaur being a deity back then. In AD&D, things were treated quite differently with regard to powers of Abyssal Lords and deities. Furthermore, the use of "titles" and game terms is being mixed up, especially in novels. She is still referred to as the Demon Queen or the like, but has been a deity for ages now. Lolth wouldn't be the first case that a Abyssal Lord has killed/rebuked a deity while not being a deity herself (if that's the case), prime example would be, of course, Orcus.
MarkusTay63 01-18-07, 11:22 AM	I believe Asmodeus tossed a bunch of Gods out of 'his' plane as well. I think WotC (like TSR in the past) has to "tip-toe" lightly in this area. I'm fairly certain demons and devils have divine power of their own (many can grant spells) but to say this would bring the 'Wrath of God' down on their butts (Bible belters, moral majority. republicans, etc). So we are stuck with 'broken rules', which is better then having our homes raided and our books burned I suppose. :rolleyes: As a rule of thumb, I would say a 16CR outsider would be DvR 0, with a +1 Dvr for every two levels of CR after that. This would mean a 28CR Demon Lord would have powers equivalent to a lesser god, and of course this would only count when on their own home plane. They would need to establish a 'religion' for themselves on another plane for this to kick-in. Its not perfect, but its the best I got.
Stigger 01-19-07, 08:54 PM	Think I tend to come down with Markus on the drow vs. gold elves thing. Seemed like the gold elves could obliterate vast tracks of land, wipe out entire kingdoms of their kin, amongst other atrocities, and get very little more than a slap on the wrist, if that... the drow/illythiri summon a bunch of little spidery fire elementals and kill a few elves, and the next thing you know, they're banished from the surface and PNG'd from all things elven. Hell, I'd go evil too if 'dad' were treating me like that. Takes the ugly stepchild thing to an extreme.