Warhorses Vs Mules... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warhorses Vs Mules... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Taran Rinn
10-19-05, 03:13 AM Recently, a friend (PC) tried to purchase a warhorse to use as a pack mule. Our DM said no. We play at our friend's house and he is trying to use this fact to take liberties against the DM's 'final decision'.
Now my friend is trying to pull me into this deadlock by using 'real world' views (a trained warhorse would be stronger than a mule and wouldn't be skittish during battle) to oppose the DM's moral stance that it would simply be ethically wrong that a warhorse should pull or carry large weights for an extended period of time.
I know that my friend is being childish, but because of the current situation and our location, playing elsewhere is not an option.
:confused:
Can anyone provide a turning point for this stale situation (it's a bit blue moulded for me. lol)
Any suggestions would be deeply appreicated...
Thanx, T.
Jak Dusksprinter
10-19-05, 01:04 PM My opinion is that an animal trained for war will be fed and treated differently than an animal used for transporting goods. If a war horse can be used in this fashion then surely a pack animal can be used in combat and not suffer negatively. Why is there a difference between them in the DMG if they can be used like this?
dragonchic1500
10-19-05, 01:51 PM I can't say for sure, being a city girl with little interaction with the equine kind, but I believe horses in general are more high-strung than pack animals (mule, donkey, whatever). This high-strung tendency would be amplified by the intense training a warhorse would receive. Think about it, warhorses are trained for battle as both and ally and a weapon, if it is used just to carry stuff it would be bored out of its mind and probably act out. I don't think anyone who actually knows anything about horses would ever use one in this manner. It would be like using a race horse for the petting zoo pony rides, it just doesn't work.

As far as your friend trying to use his/her position as host to influence the DM, tell them that they are a jerk and should be tarred and feathered for such behavior.
Taran Rinn
10-20-05, 12:24 AM Thanks for the replies. Jak, I'll post a thread elsewhere to find out about the differences for horses...
Dragonchic, the consequences for my friend have been duly noted and will be passed on...
dragonheart
10-20-05, 01:11 AM sadly war horse are now used to pull wagons etc (guess what the budweiser clydsdales were bred to be originally :( ) still a horse trained to be a warhorse would indeed be very likely to act up if used as a beast of burden and not a warmount - remember these critters have an intelligence and war horses are the more intelligent ones amoung the horses. If I were the DM I would let him have the fool thing then make it act up so much it became useless as a pack animal - always charging into attack instead of hanging back etc. By the way mules can be large enough (and fast enough) to use as war horses - its more about the temperment and training (and intelliigence) than about what exact type it is.
the other option is to give the clown sort of what he wants - a big dumb horse - one that was too stupid to train as a war horse and so has become a beast of burden. (the horse trader has the fool thing and keeps trying to palm it off as a warhorse to get more cash but warriors spot the problems and lack of full training and refuse while the PC misses the signs and is dumb enough to shell out full warhorse value for something worth much less (and then it gives him problems both of the above ways to boot) :D
Taran Rinn
10-20-05, 07:08 AM Hey Dragonheart, am sure my DM will throw the PC off the idea of a warhorse for a mule once he sees your post. We were discussing the topic last night and I suggested that he lets the PC take the warhorse, but has to take more tests, since the horse isn't bred to endure what a pack animal has to. :P Thanks for your thoughts.
Wenin
10-20-05, 12:10 PM I have to wonder why a PC would want to spend so much money on a pack animal.......

It isn't a good idea to have a horse smarter than the owner. =)
Jak Dusksprinter
10-20-05, 12:26 PM very succinctly put Wenin, I couldn't agree more.
Why can't this guy just grasp the difference between an animal trained for war and an animal 'trained' to move around with goods on it's back?
You wouldn't use a greyhound to go hunting would you?
Asadeseth
10-21-05, 03:41 AM Incedently Mules are actualy very smart, usaly much smarter than horses. Also once they deside they like some one they can be EXTREAMLY loyal animals.
warlockco
10-21-05, 05:33 PM You wouldn't use a greyhound to go hunting would you?

Depends on what I was hunting. Remember ALL hounds were bred for hunting.
dragonheart
10-21-05, 06:30 PM in fact greyhounds were primarily hunting hounds for most of the breed's life - used to chase fast critters like rabbits (just as they still do at the race track :D ) racing came after there stoppped being much need for hunting hounds bred for open spaces and high speeds.
Ziatyn Phoenixwolf
10-21-05, 10:40 PM There is a template in the Monster Manual II called the War Beast while the template is not the same as a war horse's benifits. The benifits are similar but as with the Tauric template in the same book it can not be used to make the exact creatures that are already stated. While a War Horse can be used for a pack animal, the burden of full barding and a fully armored rider are not that different from a properly distributed pack.

I would say that the effects of the war training would wear off after being used for too long as a pack animal. There is president for War Horses being used as pack horses. Often when nesseccary a second war horse would be used as a pack/remount for a rider that would need to travel a long distance much faster than normal. The second horse while usually both horses are Light War Horses not heavy the horse carried food for the two horses and the rider while the first horse that carried the rider would do this same task when the rider switched horses.

I would think that any ranger, druid, palidin, or mounted warrior in the party would be very inraged at the improper use of a WAR trained animal.
ClobberinTime
10-27-05, 01:13 PM The player is 100% correct, and the post about the clydesdale is correct.

The only difference between a warhorse and a heavy horse is training in combat and the players handbook has rules for this.

Like the previous poster pointed out many many of yesterdays warhorse breeds receive no training as war horses and are used as plow animals and have ben for a long time.

Pick up a modern horse book and see what the Pergeron and lots of Warmbloods are used for.

Most of the horses we see in westerns are light horses, as are most of the ones we ride and see in races.

Good warhorses make good heavy work horses because of their enormous strength and endurance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taran Rinn 10-19-05, 03:13 AM	Recently, a friend (PC) tried to purchase a warhorse to use as a pack mule. Our DM said no. We play at our friend's house and he is trying to use this fact to take liberties against the DM's 'final decision'. Now my friend is trying to pull me into this deadlock by using 'real world' views (a trained warhorse would be stronger than a mule and wouldn't be skittish during battle) to oppose the DM's moral stance that it would simply be ethically wrong that a warhorse should pull or carry large weights for an extended period of time. I know that my friend is being childish, but because of the current situation and our location, playing elsewhere is not an option. :confused: Can anyone provide a turning point for this stale situation (it's a bit blue moulded for me. lol) Any suggestions would be deeply appreicated... Thanx, T.
Jak Dusksprinter 10-19-05, 01:04 PM	My opinion is that an animal trained for war will be fed and treated differently than an animal used for transporting goods. If a war horse can be used in this fashion then surely a pack animal can be used in combat and not suffer negatively. Why is there a difference between them in the DMG if they can be used like this?
dragonchic1500 10-19-05, 01:51 PM	I can't say for sure, being a city girl with little interaction with the equine kind, but I believe horses in general are more high-strung than pack animals (mule, donkey, whatever). This high-strung tendency would be amplified by the intense training a warhorse would receive. Think about it, warhorses are trained for battle as both and ally and a weapon, if it is used just to carry stuff it would be bored out of its mind and probably act out. I don't think anyone who actually knows anything about horses would ever use one in this manner. It would be like using a race horse for the petting zoo pony rides, it just doesn't work. As far as your friend trying to use his/her position as host to influence the DM, tell them that they are a jerk and should be tarred and feathered for such behavior.
Taran Rinn 10-20-05, 12:24 AM	Thanks for the replies. Jak, I'll post a thread elsewhere to find out about the differences for horses... Dragonchic, the consequences for my friend have been duly noted and will be passed on...
dragonheart 10-20-05, 01:11 AM	sadly war horse are now used to pull wagons etc (guess what the budweiser clydsdales were bred to be originally :( ) still a horse trained to be a warhorse would indeed be very likely to act up if used as a beast of burden and not a warmount - remember these critters have an intelligence and war horses are the more intelligent ones amoung the horses. If I were the DM I would let him have the fool thing then make it act up so much it became useless as a pack animal - always charging into attack instead of hanging back etc. By the way mules can be large enough (and fast enough) to use as war horses - its more about the temperment and training (and intelliigence) than about what exact type it is. the other option is to give the clown sort of what he wants - a big dumb horse - one that was too stupid to train as a war horse and so has become a beast of burden. (the horse trader has the fool thing and keeps trying to palm it off as a warhorse to get more cash but warriors spot the problems and lack of full training and refuse while the PC misses the signs and is dumb enough to shell out full warhorse value for something worth much less (and then it gives him problems both of the above ways to boot) :D
Taran Rinn 10-20-05, 07:08 AM	Hey Dragonheart, am sure my DM will throw the PC off the idea of a warhorse for a mule once he sees your post. We were discussing the topic last night and I suggested that he lets the PC take the warhorse, but has to take more tests, since the horse isn't bred to endure what a pack animal has to. :P Thanks for your thoughts.
Wenin 10-20-05, 12:10 PM	I have to wonder why a PC would want to spend so much money on a pack animal....... It isn't a good idea to have a horse smarter than the owner. =)
Jak Dusksprinter 10-20-05, 12:26 PM	very succinctly put Wenin, I couldn't agree more. Why can't this guy just grasp the difference between an animal trained for war and an animal 'trained' to move around with goods on it's back? You wouldn't use a greyhound to go hunting would you?
Asadeseth 10-21-05, 03:41 AM	Incedently Mules are actualy very smart, usaly much smarter than horses. Also once they deside they like some one they can be EXTREAMLY loyal animals.
warlockco 10-21-05, 05:33 PM	You wouldn't use a greyhound to go hunting would you? Depends on what I was hunting. Remember ALL hounds were bred for hunting.
dragonheart 10-21-05, 06:30 PM	in fact greyhounds were primarily hunting hounds for most of the breed's life - used to chase fast critters like rabbits (just as they still do at the race track :D ) racing came after there stoppped being much need for hunting hounds bred for open spaces and high speeds.
Ziatyn Phoenixwolf 10-21-05, 10:40 PM	There is a template in the Monster Manual II called the War Beast while the template is not the same as a war horse's benifits. The benifits are similar but as with the Tauric template in the same book it can not be used to make the exact creatures that are already stated. While a War Horse can be used for a pack animal, the burden of full barding and a fully armored rider are not that different from a properly distributed pack. I would say that the effects of the war training would wear off after being used for too long as a pack animal. There is president for War Horses being used as pack horses. Often when nesseccary a second war horse would be used as a pack/remount for a rider that would need to travel a long distance much faster than normal. The second horse while usually both horses are Light War Horses not heavy the horse carried food for the two horses and the rider while the first horse that carried the rider would do this same task when the rider switched horses. I would think that any ranger, druid, palidin, or mounted warrior in the party would be very inraged at the improper use of a WAR trained animal.
ClobberinTime 10-27-05, 01:13 PM	The player is 100% correct, and the post about the clydesdale is correct. The only difference between a warhorse and a heavy horse is training in combat and the players handbook has rules for this. Like the previous poster pointed out many many of yesterdays warhorse breeds receive no training as war horses and are used as plow animals and have ben for a long time. Pick up a modern horse book and see what the Pergeron and lots of Warmbloods are used for. Most of the horses we see in westerns are light horses, as are most of the ones we ride and see in races. Good warhorses make good heavy work horses because of their enormous strength and endurance.