| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Skiriki07-25-05, 06:59 PM | I just recently bought the latest City of Splendors - Waterdeep sourcebook, and while I had some free time in 'con I was attending to (I acted as one of the organizers of the gaming section), I was reading it. Flip, flip, flip. There was a quiet nagging feeling in the back of my head. Something's... weird. Really weird. I can't quite place it. Weird. Something's squicking me. Flip, flip, flip. On Monday, I started reading it anew, and then it hit me: Female NPC descriptions in guilds etc. That's the problem. Why? Let's take a look at them. A really GOOD look at them. A REALLY GOOD look at ALL of them: 1. Laeral: Laeral is a slim, lithe woman of unsurpassing beauty and impish twinkling eyes... 2. Mhair Szeltune: Mhair is a petite, lithe woman with long, glossy, black hair and deep, royal blue eyes. 3. Thyriellantha Snome: No physical description. 4. Asper: Asper is a lithe, petite beauty, soft-spoken yet merry... 5. Carolyas Idogyr: No physical description beyond hair-color (red) and wild, flashing green eyes that burn with power. 6. Maliantor: No physical description beyond hair-color (brown), sea-green eyes and an impish smile. 7. Xorla Djannas: No physical description. 8. High Seeker Jhoadil Zulthind: is a plump, green-eyed, copper-haired woman, with the characteristic parchment-colored skin of her ancestors. 9. Ghentilara: Sumrise Lord Ghentilara is the aging high priestess of the Spires of the Morning. Ghentilara still has the smooth, olive-hued complexion of a youn girl from her native Chondath, but her long braided hair has turned snow-white over the years. 10. Mhaere Dryndilstann: No physical description. 11. Corinna Lathankin: Corinna has a beautiful, waiflike figure and soft face that belie her intense energy and loud, commanding voice. 12. Yondala Shamat: Yondala is a daunting figure: a tall, sturdly built woman in her late thirties with dark, swarthy features. She has pale blue eyes and midnight black hair that she braids and coils around sharp iron needles. "Icy stare" mentioned later on. 13. Naneatha Suaril: No physical description given; a mention for her impeccable fashion sense and preference for bejewelled gowns. 14. Lamris Kholl: Lamris is a strikingly beautiful woman from Llorkh with a vivacious and unpredictable nature. 15. Brianne Byndraeth: No physical description given; status as a widow mentioned, and new engagement noted. 16. Larissa Neathal: No actual physical description given; her ability to use cosmetics and other means to change her looks is noted. Also, she is described thusly: Larissa is a courtesan, playing a giggling, empty-headed sex-kitten with all the visiting envoys and diplomats she has time for, and gathering all the information for the Lords that she can that way. 17. Nymara "Kitten" Scheiron: This tousle-haired, fierce woman has a savage temper and a lush, strong firue that belies her years. Although she can appear as a stunning, beautiful lady of high station, she is more often found heavily perfumed and made-up, posing as a Dock Warden tavern dancer. 18. Syllia Adarbrent: No physical description given beyond "flaming red hair". 19. Galinda Raventree Amcarthra: No physical description given. 20. Alathene Moonstar: Lady Alathene, ..., is old and beautiful... [arclich] 21. Feluna Moonstar: is the young, almost ethereally beautiful sister of Lord Rober. Also: Feluna first manifested her lycanthropic abilities during the Time of Troubles after being kidnapped and left bound and gagged in the sewers for several days. The Moonmaiden answered her pleas for aid by transforming her into a cat. 22. Wylynd Moonstar: No physical description given beyond "dark-eyed". 23. Cassandra Thann: No physical description given. 24. Olanhar Wands: is a tall, regal woman with long raven tresses... 25. Myrna Cassalanter: has a sharp-angled face -- made possible by vigorous self-starvation and delineated by too much cosmetics -- and a pale, perfect complexion, enchanged with judicious doses of belladonna. 26. Avaereene: is a beautiful, cruel and skilled mage and slaver... 27. Alauneth "Black Viper" Orrane: has short, hacked-off black hair, a fiery temper, and a deep, husky voice guiven to nigh-constant swearing. Her beautiful face is marred only by a ragged scar that runs down the left side of her chin and ends on her shoulder. 28. Thear Chessar: is a short, bearded dwarf... 29. Jasmal: No physical description given. 30. Kromnlor Sernar: No physical description given. 31. Coril of Baldur's Gate: She seems to be a handsome, clean-shaven young man, with close-cropped, straight brown hair and eyes of sparkling lime green hue, but in truth, she is a woman. 32. Eather Heilean: No physical description given. 33. Alice Tinker: No physical description given. 34. Bronwyn Caradoon: is small and slim, with an athletic build, long-brown hair pulled back in a single braid, and large brown eyes. 35. Naneatha Lharilstar: is an olive-skinned beauty with raven black hair and striking green eyes. 36. Kylia: Although Kylia looks like a fragile doll of unassuming demeanor. [Sic. WTH?] With immaculate auburn hair... 37. Kyriani Agrivar: is the stunningly attractive, grey-eyed... 38. Righteous Sister Kadila adh Vitendi: No physical description given; noted that used to work in the past as a courtesan. In conclusion: We can leave out women with no description: fair's fair, there are male characters with equally lacking description and we cannot make a balanced decision about their appearance based on something which isn't there. This leaves us 21 descriptions to work on. Out of 21, we have: 13 women described as beautiful. Even an arclich. Several which focus on their lithe, thin, athletic or otherwise trimmed bodies with absolutely no extra fat. 1 description where "plump" is mentioned. 1 description which says 'sturdly built'. 1 description with beard (although I had thought that FR dwarves were beardless?) 1 description which can be related as "ugly" -- due to overuse of cosmetics. (Yes, I do know that belladonna was used in Real World.) Likewise, many of these women fit within the stereotypes of Madonna, woman-of-negotiable-persuasion or mother, with some doses of 'chick with a serious attitude problem' and 'ice queen' mixed in. There is also a description which reads as 'female empowerement through rape/captivity'. Also, one of the Lords is introduced to us as "Kitten". I've read through male descriptions as well, and there's more variation: several male NPCs have been described as 'fat' or 'stocky' or 'plump' or having body-shapes and appearances which do not conform to modern ideals of beauty. Just to compare notes, I just went through "Shining South", and I found above examples... lacking. I did not spot seriously exaggerated sex-kittens, nor NPCs that were pushed out of a factory that makes Beautiful Fantasy Women (tm). What happened? What happened in writing and editing process? I'm seriously disappointed by these examples in a book I otherwise found entertaining and useful. :( :weep: |
| ElGrecoETAC07-25-05, 07:08 PM | I don't own Waterdeep yet. Having said that, I wonder what the characters' backgrounds had to do with their looks? That is, what percentage of those described as good-looking were employed as entertainers or courtesans, or had the resources to ensure and maintain their good looks? I can't really tell from these brief descriptions, but it seems that most of the ones described as beautiful are either-- 1) A Chosen of Mystra (who can change their appearance at will) 2) Noble and rich 3) In a business that requires looks (dancers, courtesans) |
| GothicDan07-25-05, 07:13 PM | You have interesting standards of beauty, I think. Here are the following descriptions that don't make me think of the woman as necessarily beautiful beyond the norm: Mhair Szeltune - Petite just means short and normally proportioned. Ghentilara - Nice skin does not a beauty make. Olanhar Wands - Regal does not necessarily mean beautiful. I could easily see regal as more similar to 'striking' than beautiful. Coril of Baldur's Gate - A handsome young man does not necessarily mean a pretty young lady. Bronwyn Caradoon - A person's body in good physical condition does not necessarily make one beautiful; it adds more to the physical ability scores than Charisma. Kylia - Fragile means fragile. When I think of someone as a fragile, I think of someone with a weak bone structure, and rather blank and boring, not beautiful. So, there are 6 of the women you listed who I do not feel can be considered "beautiful." :) |
| Skiriki07-25-05, 07:31 PM | 1) A Chosen of Mystra (who can change their appearance at will) 2) Noble and rich 3) In a business that requires looks (dancers, courtesans) Let me gather this info; running a guild or being rich and noble does NOT mean that they have to be pretty or even beautiful -- there are several average, ugly, fat, plump or non-descript male characters in similar positions of power. Likewise, appearance is not always the most desired quality in a courtesan. 1. Laeral: Twin.. I mean, Chosen of Mystra. 2. Mhair Szeltune: Lady Master of Order; not connected to Mystra-club. 3. Thyriellantha Snome: Illuskan wizard. 4. Asper: Illuskan sorcerer/fighter, married to Mirt. 5. Carolyas Idogyr: Sorcerer, part of Grey Hands. 6. Maliantor: Former student of Khelben. 7. Xorla Djannas: Devotee to Cyric. 8. High Seeker Jhoadil Zulthind: Leader of Church of Gond. The only plump female character. 9. Ghentilara: Leader of Church of Lathander. 10. Mhaere Dryndilstann: A notable member in Church of Lathander. 11. Corinna Lathankin: A vampire hunter. 12. Yondala Shamat: Notable member of Church of Loviatar. 13. Naneatha Suaril: Leader of Church of Selūne. 14. Lamris Kholl: Notable member of Church of Tymora. 15. Brianne Byndraeth: One of the Lords. 16. Larissa Neathal: One of the Lords. 17. Nymara "Kitten" Scheiron: One of the Lords. 18. Syllia Adarbrent: Illuskan aristocrat, commands her own ship. 19. Galinda Raventree Amcarthra: Noble, one of the leading socialites. 20. Alathene Moonstar: Arclich. 21. Feluna Moonstar: Cleric of Selūne, aristocrat. 22. Wylynd Moonstar: Aristocrat. 23. Cassandra Thann: Matriarch of the Thann clan, aristocrat. 24. Olanhar Wands: Aristocrat. 25. Myrna Cassalanter: The belladonna-uglified character is an aristocrat (bard/rogue at that!). 26. Avaereene: Slaver, serving The Eye. 27. Alauneth "Black Viper" Orrane: Thief. 28. Thear Chessar: Thief/Thief-Acrobat. 29. Jasmal: Sage. 30. Kromnlor Sernar: Sage, midwife. 31. Coril of Baldur's Gate: A Harper. 32. Eather Heilean: A Harper. 33. Alice Tinker: A Harper. 34. Bronwyn Caradoon: A Harper. 35. Naneatha Lharilstar: Courtesan, leader of Castle Ward spy ring. 36. Kylia: An Agent for the Lords. 37. Kyriani Agrivar: An example character of Moonstars, also one of the Lords. 38. Righteous Sister Kadila adh Vitendi: An example character of Sun Soul prestige class, said to be second to Hanor in authority. |
| Skiriki07-25-05, 07:34 PM | So, there are 6 of the women you listed who I do not feel can be considered "beautiful." :) I'm working on the definitions I've seen in online games: "fragile" is most often followed by a list of "but" and "very beautiful" or its synonyms. I realize this can taint my perception. However, this STILL leaves us more than plenty of factory-built beautiful women. Not to mention a ton of men with more varying appearances and body-builds. |
| BrianCritchley07-25-05, 07:41 PM | you make this sound like a new trend. fantasy has always had a disproportinate number of beaituful women. |
| ElGrecoETAC07-25-05, 07:44 PM | Let me gather this info; running a guild or being rich and noble does NOT mean that they have to be pretty or even beautiful -- there are several average, ugly, fat, plump or non-descript male characters in similar positions of power. Likewise, appearance is not always the most desired quality in a courtesan. 1) Being rich makes it easier to be beautiful. Romantic revisionism aside, having access to regular running water, skin creams, cosmetics, and an army of jewelers, hairdressers, and tailors makes it easier to be beautiful in a Renaissance-style age. 2) Appearance might not always be the most desired quality in a courtesan, but I think it's fair to say that this would be the exception rather than the rule. Sure, folks will have varying tastes, but attractiveness has seldom been a quality ignored in any caste or variety of courtesans. 3) There has never been a shortage of ugly, fat, plump, or non-descript males in positions of power. Achilles stands alone as a paragon of handsomeness and heroism in the Iliad, but there's a legion of beautiful princesses. This is nothing new, either in history or fiction. None of this is shallow or sexist--it's just reality, fair or unfair. |
| Skiriki07-25-05, 07:45 PM | you make this sound like a new trend. fantasy has always had a disproportinate number of beaituful women. Please note this: Just to compare notes, I just went through "Shining South", and I found above examples... lacking. I did not spot seriously exaggerated sex-kittens, nor NPCs that were pushed out of a factory that makes Beautiful Fantasy Women (tm). I had noticed how the quality of female descriptions had gone up in 3.x sourcebooks for FR. Which is why this came as a nasty surprise. |
| Kuje3107-25-05, 07:48 PM | Most of those descrip's came from 1e and 2e material actually. :) |
| Krash07-25-05, 07:52 PM | Practically all of the women noted in City of Splendors:Waterdeep are pick-ups from previous products in 1E & 2E - their physical descriptions included. Whilst it may seem 'wrong' that most of the women are described as beautiful and seemingly you would have preferred some of them to be described as 'plain', 'unattractive', 'ugly' or 'has a face like a troglodyte', but Eric hasn't shown any bias here - he's just picking up what previous writers have written re the females of Waterdeep. The two chief writers are Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend. Both have featured 'ugly' women in their writings (especially Ed who seems to specialize in crones and warts!) although Steven has the eye of a romantic methinks, and prefers a beautiful form - but that may be his love of comic books coming out. When was the last time you saw an ugly young woman in a comic book? Obviously this feature of the book struck a dissonant chord with you but IMHO it's not something that detracts from the product. YMMV, naturally. -- George Krashos |
| Starspider07-25-05, 08:00 PM | None of this is shallow or sexist--it's just reality, fair or unfair. The fact that, though the men of this book apparently have a wide variety of descriptions, while the women of this book appear, with startling consistency, to be fantasy stereotypes... isn't shallow or sexist? :confused: Or, to put it another way, drawing on the example of the Iliad as justification might not be the best solution, since well, let's delve into the history of how women were treated in Greece (except by the Spartans): If you weren't left in a jar to die as a baby (dowries are expensive), you were forced to learn economics, and forced to marry someone in their thirties (while you were about 15), and basically turned into a baby machine for the next several years. If you did survive all that, and if your husband survived war and didn't divorce you, you might have a few rooms and a courtyard behind your husband's house. And no, you couldn't vote either. So perhaps you should say this book isn't any more shallow or sexist... than popular culture for the past 3000 years. ;) |
| ericlboyd07-25-05, 08:22 PM | Most of the female characters with physical descriptions date back to previous editions (i.e. existing Realmslore). I suspect that if an author is creating a single female or single male character, they tend to make them of above-average beauty / handsomeness. Pool those characters together, and you get an above average pool. In addition, NPC descriptions must be brief, so most authors (including me) emphasize a character's most distinctive feature, whether it be a good one (e.g. "lithe" or "regal") or not (e.g. "aquiline visage", although that's arguable). FWIW, I did try to throw in more varied appearance to "balance it out" for those NPCs I had room to describe. --Eric |
| GothicDan07-25-05, 08:31 PM | And of course, the Spartans often considered women to be wild and dangerous entities that were good for little more than cleaning the house and making babies. Young females actually dressed themselves sometimes to appear more like young males to attract mates. And we all know how strong the "warrior bond" between Spartan brothers-in-arms was. That said: although Steven has the eye of a romantic methinks, and prefers a beautiful form - but that may be his love of comic books coming out. Krash, you have no idea how hard this made me laugh. But it brings up a very good point - fantasy is romantic. In a world where you can be stronger than a bull, taller than an ogre, have magic that can flatten a forest, and cast a spell to make yourself a god, what's being beautiful, exactly? It's simply one of the many romanitizations of the fantasy culture. Most men (straight ones, at least) simply don't put "looking like Brad Pitt" at the top of their list of wishes. Having huge, burly muscles like Conan, sure, but he didn't have the prettiest face around. So, in other words: Women care more for their appearance than (straight) males. FR, being a fantasy world, is simply an extension of this reality. In modern literature, even female authors include dazzlingly beautiful females with at least as much regularity as they include handsome males. Names that come to mind include Jacqueline Carey, Laura K. Hamilton, Elaine Cunningham (Amlaruilistotallyhot, dude!), and Anne Bishop. In fact, such female fantasy authors seem to have, across the board more gorgeous characters of either gender than male authors, though considering they tend to focus on a female protagonist, subsequently it's the amazing-looking male characters that seem to draw more attention. It's the same from the other end of the table, so to speak. |
| Skiriki07-25-05, 08:42 PM | I appreciate that effort, Eric. I wish that some editorial process could have been used to lessen the effect in this new book: this is the very reason why I steered away from older resource books -- blatant wish-fullfillment aspect (bluntly put) wears out my patience; us female-kind are more varied than this, after all. Different wordings, something more evocative than using tiresome "beautiful". Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, thin, thin, thin. My favorite character was that plump priestess of Gond, by the way. Like I noted in my first post, this is about the only gripe I have regarding this book; I love the guild format, favored in guild-feat, and the excellent method of displaying prices of various stores. There are tons of good ideas to harvest for my games. (My second gripe is a bit about sewers leading to waters where various humanoid-like sea creatures live: while the description says that they use nets to gather trash and drag it to the sea, this procedure does not clean up fouled water. For my sanity's sake I assume that there's some kind of magical mechanism at work, so the harbor of the Waterdeep does not reek of wee... and mermaids won't need thorough scrubbing every time they swim closer to sewers...) Mayhap next time, eh? I'm quite willing to let this one go and just wait for the next book. To others: So, in other words: Women care more for their appearance then (straight) males. Really. I thank you for telling women what women could conceivably want. What I want to see is more realistic, living world than the dollhouse of pretty figures with paper-thin personalities and cliches. Wanna know what I think about those writers, too? It sure doesn't describe them as "paragons of written words". :rolleyes: |
| ClobberinTime07-25-05, 08:51 PM | Well according to modern sociology there is a significant statistical correlation between success (financial and otherwise) and the attributes fitting a societies view of 'attractive' for males and females, so maybe its no accident that in Waterdeep a larger percentage of the important women are attractive, maybe the game is just echoing reality. Besides which I would assume that given the hard physical labor involved in a preindustrial society in comparison to the epidemic obesity (yes it was declared an epidemic by the center for disease control) of modern americans that people are quite physically fit in Waterdeep as well, and so in fact are more lithe and waifish than we are used to here. |
| Starspider07-25-05, 09:03 PM | Actually, the obesity epidemic would have more to do with the prevalence of high-fat high-sugar fast foods (rent Super Size Me, if you like) than pre/post industrial anything. Now, if people are more in shape, that's one thing, but again, the point is evaded. Also, keep in mind that standards of attraction vary according to the era: Reubenesque women were all the rage... when Reubens was painting, and the men of that era would probably gag at the thought of Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan. ;) And the point would be: Men: Varying descriptions, fat, thin, ugly, attractive, whatever. Women: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, and did we mention beautiful yet because they are! And I'd like to thank Eric for poking his head into the lioness' mouth, too. That takes no small amount of courage. :) However, I have to echo Skiriki where it sounds like a little better detail could have been done in maybe making it a little less stereotypically sexist than 1st and 2nd eds. P.S. The Spartans, around 550 BC, allowed women to own property, do military exercises, and run Sparta while the men were at war. It wasn't San Francisco in the Sixties, but it was a darn sight better than the rest of Greece (or most of the ancient world of that time!) Come back with your shield, or on it! |
| HVulpes07-25-05, 09:09 PM | This can all be explained with one word. Magic. With spells like Alter Self and Polymorph and treasure like Hat of Diguise (A cheaper type of magic item), women can make themselves look like anything. And if you're a form changer, why have an ugly form? (It is possible like Laeral's under cover work. She can make one ugly orc!) Heck I remember in one of the Volo books (Sword Coast or the North) there was a female mage who charged money for smile changes in appearance like hair colour changes or wrinkle removal. Perhaps even some of the pretty men might be hiding something (*William Shattner's Girdle*) :) . Still when men make a fantasy woman, they are rarely ugly in appearance. In personality.... But then women tend not to have Carrottop as their dream man! ;) |
| GothicDan07-25-05, 09:20 PM | Really. I thank you for telling women what women could conceivably want. Thank you! I was actally telling one woman, unless you have Disassociative Identity Disorder. :) And I wasn't saying this out of male chauvenism; I was saying this according to simple studies in psychology and sociology. And I have had numerous women agree with me on the stated subject. Being homosexual, let's just say that I have an eye for fashion and having an idea just how much time one spends into putting together one's appearance. Myself, I cannot go out of the house without being freshly showered, wearing clean, pressed clothes, and without putting in my contacts and being completely shaven. But I am hardly the normal male, and I readily admit this. What I want to see is more realistic, living world than the dollhouse of pretty figures with paper-thin personalities and cliches. Why do you demand realism in terms of appearance, but you do not demand realism in terms of intelligence, wit, strength, and the lack of magical capability that all can possess? Or, for that matter, why are you playing a fantasy game at all? I am not trying to be mean, but I am merely curious as to why you dislike something that has been established in this particular genre since its onset with gorgeous elven women. That is to say, why do you demand that only one fantastic aspect of fantasy (appearance) be more realistic, and none of the rest? Wanna know what I think about those writers, too? It sure doesn't describe them as "paragons of written words". One could say the same about Tolkien, then, as his characters weren't exactly terrible to look upon. Or for that matter Robert Jordan or Terry Goodkind, or George R. R. Martin, three of the biggest names in modern fantasy, all males as well, who have attract main characters and side characters of both genders. Being pretty is a part of fantasy, just as much as being strong or magical is. And may I just say that Jacqueline Carey's writing is some of the most amazing stuff that I've read in a long time, surpassing even the aforementioned big three High Fantasy authors, in my opinion. Well, maybe not GRRM, but certainly the first two. In conclusion, the standard fantasy gamer/reader is simply not of the same mindset as you are, in this. I know I want hundreds of gorgeous gay men running around the Realms, but as I know this isn't very plausible in marketing, I'm not complaining about it. P.S. The Spartans, around 550 BC, allowed women to own property, do military exercises, and run Sparta while the men were at war. It wasn't San Francisco in the Sixties, but it was a darn sight better than the rest of Greece (or most of the ancient world of that time!) Come back with your shield, or on it! Women had slightly more freedom and education, yes, but this was more out of necessity than actual a reflection of the Spartan males' attitudes towards them. They still considered them rather integrally unsound, and they were allowed to do as they did because, as you said, the men were too busy making war (and loving each other) to do the running of the country. In other words, they were relegated to "domestic" work, just as much as the other Greek city states' women were, in a way. And we have growing evidence that in ancient times, Athens actually was a center of female power. First we have its name, taken from the goddess Athene. And then we have the fact that there was a family that supposedl ruled the city, named something along the lines of the Palladaes, from which Pallas Athene may have well taken her name. The story goes that the encroaching clergy of Poseidon demanded a vote as to who would be the patron of Athens - Poseidon or Athene. All of the women voted for Athene, and since they outnumbered the men, they won. The men considered this a violation of the rules, and hence this is why in Athens it was rumored that females were no longer able to vote. However, evidence shows that privileged females actually hired eligible males to vote for them, anyway. |
| ClobberinTime07-25-05, 09:49 PM | Just to make sure the point is made, in a pre-industrial world where people exercise as work, i.e. farming, people can eat a big mack or two a day and stay pretty healthy. That was all I meant. And your right beauty is socially relatve and once upon a time it was being plump like Reuben liked them because it was a sign that you didn't have to work and therefore had money. Now in our society being waifish and thin like the women of Waterdeep is more in fashion, because exercise is what we do for leisure. I didn't say beauty wasn't socially relative, I just noticed that Waterdeep's notion and our own are pretty similar, and that the pretty people get the best jobs in Waterdeep just like on earth (at least statistically speaking). |
| Skiriki07-25-05, 09:56 PM | Just because some people STILL seem to have doubts about why I have a beef... 38 male descriptions, pulled in order from the book, along with their rank and positions of power: 1. Ambassador Ethur Anszim: No physical description given. Thayan ambassador. 2. Consul Thazar "Skullstorm" Arkanak: ...dark and glovering figure who inspires dread wherever he goes. Ambassador's bodyguard. 3. Consul Orgin Ulmokina: No physical description given. Overseer of the Skullport. 4. Trobriand the Metal Mage: The Metal Mage appears as a thin, clean-shaven man with long, steel-gray hair. He is unnaturally tall, but he stoops in his old age, bringing his eyes to about six feet from the floor. Halaster's "heir". 5. Dagsumn: Gaunt and ghostly pale, Dagsumn is an austere man of moderate height, given to bulky blue and green robes. Despite his apparent physical failings... Another arcane spellcaster in Waterdeep. 6. Kappiyan Flurmastyr: is a tall, thin, dignified man over a century in age with white hair and beard, bushy eyebrows and a childlike gleam in his eyes. Another arcane spellcaster in Waterdeep. 7. Tessalar Hulicorn: is a high-voiced, bearded, vain man given to wearing large amounts of gleaming costume jewelry... 8. Telbran Nelarn: is a quiet man, small in stature, with pale skin and jet-black hair. His deep blue eyes... 9. Savengriff: is a plain-featured man with hazel eyes, pale skin, and dark brown hair and beard. 10. Maaril the Dragon Mage: ...is a handsome, dark-eyed wizard with a jutting black beard curling from the point of his skin. 11. Madeiron Sunstone: ..stands an astonishing eight feet tall in height, a throwback to his Ostorian lineage. He keeps his head shaved and his muscular form lightly oiled, giving his opponents no chance to grab him in combat. City guard. 12. Emmer Jundhyl: ..is a large, beefy, outgoing man, given to great booming laughs and a ready smile. City Watch. 13. Mulgor of Tyr: No physical description given. Collector-of-fees. 14. Rulathon: is a distinguished, grey-haired man of slightly build and wiry, tough muscles. His square-jawed face is lined with wrinkles earned in the line of duty. City Watch captain. 15. Brace Ulmemur: is a beefy, hard-faced man, biting wit, but if crossed, will obsessively hunt down and kill the betrayer. City Watch. 16. Helve Urtrace: is a quiet, rugged man with a scarred visage, an oft-broken pug nose and missing teeth. While aged and balding... Senior Armsmaster of the City Watch. 17. Hrusse of Assuran: is a sallow-skinned exile from Unther... Grey Hands. 18. Jardwim: ..has shoulder-length black hair, a Van **** [:rolleyes: So a honest to god surname must be censored?] beard and a stocky, muscular build. His skin retains a greyish cast from being petrified... Grey Hands. 19. Malchior of Darkhold: is a fat, fleshy, grey-bearded man whose cunning is matched only by his greed. Church of Cyric, leader. 20. Tomas Siochen: is a thin man with a pockmarked face... Church of Cyric. 21. Jandar Ilbaereth: is tall, thin moon elf with fair, blue-tinged skin, silver-white hair, and striking gold-flecked purple eyes. Order of Aster, leader. 22. Hanor Kichavo: keeps his head shaved and favors bright yellow robes. Leader of the Order of Sun Soul. 23. Hlethvagi Anteos: is a fat, wispy-bearded, sinister little man who favors fine robes, silken sashes and waistcoats... Leader of Church of Loviatar. 24. Ilbrost Mythyl: is an aging enchanter who deftly relies on his magic to maintain his prominent social position. Ilbrost is always immaculately groomed, with a wand-thin mustache, sumptuous wizardly robes, and slicked-back, thinning grey hair. Leader of Church of Mystra. 25. Meleghost Starseer: He has long, slender fingers, a shaven head, and a neatly trimmed goatee. Church of Mystra. 26. Sandrew the Wise: No physical description given. 27. Gathgaer Milomynt: is a beak-nosed, alert-looking man with close-cropped brown hair and beady brown eyes. Leader of Church of Shar. 28. Sumer of Calimport: is tall, slim, dusky-skinned and dark-haired... Leader of Church of Talos. 29. Elegul Another: No physical description given. Leader of Church of Tymora. 30. Adama Miiralin: No physical description given. Church of Tymora. 31. Hykros Allumen: No physical description given. Leader of Church of Tyr. 32. Jhassalan "of the Lightning": ...and the lightning-shaped shock of blond hair that runs from his temple and over his brown-haired scalp. Church of Tyr. 33. Algorind: has strong features, short, fair, curly hair, and a guileless, direct blue-eyed gaze. Leader of Holy Order of the Knights of Samular. 34. Harkas Kormallis: ..so far as to cut off his right hand... Holy Order of the Knights of Samular. 35. Morus Brokengulf II: ...was a paladin and Tyrran zealot, cutting off his right hand in sacrifice... Holy Order of the Knights of Samular. 36. Renwick "Snowcloak" Caradoon: No physical description given. Arclich. 37. Gareth Cormaeril: is a tall, well-made man in vigorous late life... He wears his white hair in precise waves and has bright blue eyes... withered right arm. Holy Order of the Knights of Semular. 38. Hlam: He is of slight build and middling height, but he is incredibly fit. Hlam keeps his head and face completely shaved... Leader of the Order of the Even-Handed Does this FINALLY show WHY I'm peeved about female descriptions? |
| GothicDan07-25-05, 10:05 PM | It shows only that you are peeved about certain aspects of fantasy and not others, to me. I don't know about the others. It's simply a reflection of the real life tendencies of the differences between gender. Females tend to worry more about their appearance (I am not saying every female), and thus work to make themselves more beautiful. All one has to do is compare the number of females who wear makeup to the number of males who do. Who knows if some of those men, if they "primped" more, wouldn't look better themselves? And who knows how many of the women - especially the magically-capable ones mentioned - didn't use magic to enhance their appearance? And actually, I'm surprised by the number of positive-adjective associated with the males of Waterdeep! I was seriously suspecting not to see any more than one or two males described in ways that could be interpretted as handsome! Tessalar especially! Good job, Eric. Or, whoever wrote those NPCs upon which you expanded. :) |
| Kuje3107-25-05, 10:19 PM | I'm honestly not seeing what the problem is.... handsome, distinguished, well-made, etc, all show that males equal the females....... |
| ClobberinTime07-25-05, 10:24 PM | All right I give in I was just doing some chain yanking, I agree with you. But this does bring me to a point..... There have been lots of times in history when men wore more make up than women, but I can't imagine they were any prettier :) And I am beginning to think GD is a repressed heterosexual with his strange love of female icons and warty diseased men. Its enough to make one wonder :) And You should lay all 100% of the blame at Ed's doorstep, Ed's imagination is only populated by beautiful women and strange knobly kneed men who they can't keep their hands off living in the wilds of canada and working at a provincial library. It is his fantasy after all and the rest of us are just visiting. :) Good Luck! |
| Kuje3107-25-05, 10:30 PM | And You should lay all 100% of the blame at Ed's doorstep, Ed's imagination is only populated by beautiful women and strange knobly kneed men who they can't keep their hands off living in the wilds of canada and working at a provincial library. It is his fantasy after all and the rest of us are just visiting. :) Good Luck! As George and I said, not all of this is Ed. Steven also worked on Waterdeep. |
| Skiriki07-25-05, 10:37 PM | I'm honestly not seeing what the problem is.... handsome, distinguished, well-made, etc, all show that males equal the females....... You really don't see what's the problem? :eek: :uh-huh: :nonono: :banghead: :OMG! Okay. I'm right over there. Doing stuff. I can try to lead the horse to water, but I can't force it to drink. While I'm trying to figure out a way to illustrate this particular problem for you, could all guys in this thread please lift their hand or an appendage of similar use? |
| GothicDan07-25-05, 10:46 PM | Skiriki, could you be a little more precise in your suggestion? And also realize that not everyone interprets things the same way that you do, nor feels the same ways about the same stimuli that you do, while you're at it? Eric did a great job. I applaud him, and hope to have some money soon enough to actually buy Waterdeep for myself. |
| Kuje3107-25-05, 10:47 PM | You really don't see what's the problem? :eek: :uh-huh: :nonono: :banghead: :OMG! Okay. I'm right over there. Doing stuff. I can try to lead the horse to water, but I can't force it to drink. While I'm trying to figure out a way to illustrate this particular problem for you, could all guys in this thread please lift their hand or an appendage of similar use? I really don't. I'm not trying to be hard headed, this time. The males have descriptions that equal the descriptions the females have. |
| ElGrecoETAC07-26-05, 01:03 AM | Skiriki, When the majority of the women you pick out have the resources to look good or are involved in a trade that typically involves looking good... don't be surprised if they end up looking good! When the majority of the men you pick out are either arcane casters, worshippers of dark deities (in a city where they're not looked upon fondly or even accepted, for that matter), or members of the city guard... don't be surprised if they look weird, sinister, or like they've been in a bunch of street fights (respectively). It's contrived when the average Joe or Jane off the street is described as being athletic, toned, bronzed, and beautiful--especially in a setting where they likely don't have the resources to be that way. On the other hand, it's just as contrived to pretend like people who do have said resources, and likely the inclination, to look good... don't. Also, to the side-topic of the Spartans (since, as my screen name implies, I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff): We don't know much about the Spartans that does not originate from non-Spartans to begin with. Most of what we do get regarding the Spartan warriors (even, or especially, their relationships and sexuality) is more likely derived from post-Spartan Roman idealization of the Theban Sacred Band and/or the Platonic Ideal. Case in point, the less famous Doric communities of later Crete and Rhodes also maintained obligatory life-long martial service through much of their history, but there is no real mention or praise of the "Sacred Band" ideal for them by later historians. Then again, they did not singlehandedly save the world from the eastern hordes (and I mean this with humor). ;) What little historical record survives from the actual realm of Sparta (dating from their actual period of power) depicts the Lacedaemonians as a super-militaristic society that was really good only at mercilessly imposing their will over hundreds of thousands of unfortunates. Their batting average at war wasn't even that great! Thermopylae was their shining moment, and ensured that they would never be held accountable for everything else they did. Where the subject of women is concerned, we do know that the Lacedaemonians only began allowing their women to own lands in significant numbers after the institutions of the Agoge (military upbringing) and the Corps of Similars decayed enough that the leading citizens began looking for legal loopholes to gain material wealth in contravention of the semi-mythical Lycurgan laws. The overwhelming majority of women who owned land in Lacedaemon did so only through a technicality. Laws passed by less than ideal Spartan Ephors allowed for Similars to take loans on their supposedly unsellable inherited lands, leaving said land in the security of the lender until payment was made. As the lendors (powerful Similars) couldn't technically hold wealth, their wives did it for them. They had about as much control of the resources as you might imagine. Incidentally, this led to the fall of Lacedaemon--if a father didn't have his plot of land, his son could not be inducted to the Agoge, and thus could not become a Similar. The majority of the Lacedaemonians thus fell to the 2nd class citizen position of the Perioikoi, while the only land-owners (the Similars putting out the loans) had their sons go through "vanilla" agoge. Only a few hundred men could call themselves Similars prior to Sparta's final fall. So what did we learn from the Ancient Greeks today boys and girls??? A: Anytime women gain property rights, however false and hollow, civilization is soon destroyed! I kid, I kid! :D |
| The Axeman07-26-05, 01:04 AM | Well you've made is pretty obvious to me. Your a feminist and your upset that this type of "degrading" or "stereotypical" descriptions are rampant whilst the males are not. Besides, we all know that in a medieval society, those women didn't get to their positions of power on merit alone. Lets use our heads here! ;) |
| Nowak07-26-05, 01:06 AM | Relax, detractors - it's just fantasy, man. Feel free to populate Waterdeep with as many unattractive or overweight or whatever female NPCs as you like... I'll stick to Greenwood's vision. Besides, strict adherence to being "realistic" kinda loses it's credibility as soon as a displacer beast shows up and a friggin' wizard casts a fireball. So Waterdeep's filled with a bunch o' fine-lookin' ladies? Well, then that's where my character wants to hang out. |
| The Axeman07-26-05, 01:06 AM | So what did we learn from the Ancient Greeks today boys and girls??? A: Anytime women gain property rights, however false and hollow, civilization is soon destroyed! I kid, I kid! :D Not exactly that drastic but your on the right track seriously. As much as I hate to admit it. |
| Jim Bob07-26-05, 01:10 AM | Well according to modern sociology there is a significant statistical correlation between success (financial and otherwise) and the attributes fitting a societies view of 'attractive' for males and females, In the medieval world, "attractive" was just "doesn't have smallpox scars, and is vaguely clean and healthy." ... the hard physical labor involved in a preindustrial society...more lithe and waifish... Hard physical labour makes you lithe and waifish? You've never done hard physical labour, have you? Why do you demand realism in terms of appearance, but you do not demand realism in terms of intelligence, wit, strength, and the lack of magical capability that all can possess? I demand realism, full stop. Or rather, since it's not "realistic" to have magic, etc, a realistic flavour. I don't get that from, say, this: http://www.larryelmore.com/images/art/color/lg_co_231.jpg Her armour is going to be uncomfortable, cause her injury, fail to protect vital organs, make her freeze her **** off, and she's too weedy to wield that sword. We can't expect full realism in any game. But we can expect a realistic flavour. D&D is sexist. And in other news, water is wet and the Pope poops in the woods, or something. |
| Darrian07-26-05, 02:14 AM | Just a side note. This is to anyone who plays/played D&D with females. Have you ever seen a female player generate a female PC with a lower than average Charisma score? I have never and I often play D&D with females. Conversely, how often have you seen men generate male characters that had lower than average Charisma scores? Most guys that I play D&D with stat drop charisma in a point buy system unless they are playing paladins or sorcerers. Draw whatever conclusions you like from this, Darrian |
| BrianCritchley07-26-05, 02:44 AM | aye I've ntoed that two, and will forward another theory, that it's cultural as useally my female characters in my games irregardless of gender are beautiful while the male charctasers may be less so. I suspect the root is as far back as the fairy tales we where told as children. when the princess or whatever in it was ALWAYS described as beautiful |
| Kadasbrass07-26-05, 03:09 AM | I can understand alot of females being slim. In that type of society women had to do alot of housework, run back and forth, lifting heavy loads, sewing (Most lower class familys wouldn't have enough to afford their cloths). Also there isn't going to be alot of surplus food or spare time in which to eat it. Rich families may be different, but then there is a cultural standard that most (young) woman 'should' be beatiful for a period of time (which is until after their married). While the wives of wel to do families may not have the housework as the lower class does, they have another duty, being a good hostess. Which is at times almost as stressful and hardworking as the normal housewife. Have to make sure everything is perfect, not only does house nee to be clean it needs to be furnished and decorated for parties and balls in order to impress your guest, need to make sure have the rigth selection of foods for the meals, and so on... |
| Jim Bob07-26-05, 06:52 AM | I can understand alot of females being slim. In that type of society women had to do alot of housework, run back and forth, lifting heavy loads, sewing (Most lower class familys wouldn't have enough to afford their cloths). Also there isn't going to be alot of surplus food or spare time in which to eat it. *BZZZT* "Sorry, wrong answer." In which alternate physiology world do you live, mate? The bizarro world where "lifting heavy loads" makes you SLIMMER? That's how Arnold Schwarzenegger became the mere wisp of a man he is today! The medieval diet was a very high-carbohydrate diet. They weren't skinny at all, male or female. If they were, it was called a "famine" usually coming from a "flood" or "drought." Rural work makes you heavy. If you don't consume enough to be heavy, then sure, you slim down - but then you can't work, and those who can't work, well, they die. Peasants aren't skinny. Anyone's who's done any hard physical labour would know this. I guess you lads spent too much quality time at the keyboard to realise this. Nobles aren't skinny, either. Where the peasants ate mostly basic grains, the nobles ate mostly meat and fruit. |
| Darrian07-26-05, 08:28 AM | Just another aside. I was looking through my files of all the NPC's I have written up. I found that all of the female NPC's except one had a 12 or greater Charisma score. Conversely, less than half of the male NPC's had Charisma scores of 12 or higher. I know that by definition charisma is not solely physical appearance, but it is the statistic most closely associated with physical beauty. So I guess what I divine from this is that I prefer my female NPC's to look better than my male NPC's. What are your experiences as an NPC maker? Darrian (I make my females hot and my males powerful, I guess) |
| Damien_Hiro07-26-05, 09:54 AM | Just look at a couple of people here and their jobs: Kuje-Calvin Klein Model Gothic Dan- Tommy Model Alac Luin- Timberland Boot model Darkest of Angels- Polo Model Clobberin Time- Actor/Model(he is in the new F4) Damien_Hiro- OP Model So you see we are all beautiful people and are in positions of Power, being beautiful. We are presidents of companies and senators, not because we want to be, but the ugly people want us to be in power. The common man and woman want us out front looking good and kicking butt. We are beautiful, therfore smart and deserve to rule. Seriously, out of the thousands of people that live in a fantasy setting, most of them are better looking than you average guy, except those mentioned above, we are above average in every way. Why, because no one wants to go see a serving wench with no teeth, overweight and reeking of grease. We want fantasy, reality is a the hole in the wall down the street. We do not just want any fantasy we want over the top stuff. Comparing how many beautiful people are in a fantasy world is like figuring out we the nearest bathroom is, it really is not important to most people. I understand you point, but most people are not overly concerned. |
| ClobberinTime07-26-05, 11:20 AM | Yeah its true, most of us are pimple ridden, fat and lazy. We need something to make us feel good about ourselves and this is all we got. Shiriki- really you should just feel sorry for us all......Its pathetic really........I guess its like this- When you go on vacation where do you want to go- The Caribean or Atlanta. If we make fantasy worlds too realistic we are just vacationing in Atlanta over and over and over, but we never get bored of the Caribean, its 85 degrees and sunny every day. |
| Preternatural07-26-05, 11:55 AM | Many of the males pointed out are also described as relatively good looking, above average at the least. Sure, a larger proportion of females are described as above average, and perhaps the overabundant use of the word "beautiful" was done to the point of repetitiveness. But perhaps in this case Beautiful can be taken as "pretty" or "nice." A generic term for above average... not UNattractive. And seriously, it is very rare you have someone, anyone, calling a girl ugly to her face, and even behind her back, I'd imagine you do it very carefully. A few I see as not quite attractive, some of the waifish pixie looking ones with sharp eyes of varying colors. In my mind I picture scary looking ladies with large shining eyes (ones perhaps too big for their heads) that give you deep, weird stares. Ones that send shivers up your spine cause it's that uncomfortable a look. For the whole skinny/thin thing, skinny is in. Apparently that's the fashion and rage now, has been for a while, and coincidentally, it's the same in Waterdeep. I guess you can say D&D is very Hollywood. How many female singers are plump, very few. Most have the figures and features of models. Now how many male singers are plain fat, hairy as a sloth, with scraggly beards and greasy hair. A good deal more. Look at country singers. How many male singers do something weird to their looks? Look at rock bands. Ones with a more rugged look? Many typical pop singers. But beyond that, there are still a large number of generally good looking and handsome musicians out there. Of both sexes. The same can be said of actors and other entertainers. The "front men" of our society. |
| Darrian07-26-05, 12:07 PM | I have never played a female PC that had less than a 12 Charisma score. I just could never wrap my head around an average let alone less than average female PC. This week, we are starting a new party and I get to play. I was thinking of playing a female sun elf wizard who would have a high charisma, of course. Since reading this thread and realizing that I have been close-minded and have never explored the possibilities of an ugly female character. I will make my new PC have a charisma score of 8, maybe less. I think I will name her Skiriki so that I will always remember this thread and it's positive message will reverberate through my campaign. Thank you, Darrian (updating my new character) |
| Razz07-26-05, 12:42 PM | What really surprises me is how someone can sit there with a D&D book and analyze it to the point of reading lines between the lines until they managed to come up with something that's similar to a real-world issue and slap a label on it to call it "stereotyped fantasy female NPCs---sexist!" Amazing. Come on now, do you people really have THAT much time on your hands? Pretty creepy. It's no wonder us gamers alone are stereotyped. :rolleyes: |
| GothicDan07-26-05, 01:32 PM | Greco, thank you for that explanation on Sparta! Granted, I'm but a wee Sophomore (and a half) Classics Major, so I am not as knowledgeable on the subject of ancient Greece as I'd like to be. Though I do know enough to know that I prefer the Pre-Socratic Natural Philosophers more than the former. ;) |
| GothicDan07-26-05, 01:39 PM | In the medieval world, "attractive" was just "doesn't have smallpox scars, and is vaguely clean and healthy." And we have to remember that FR is FR, and not medieval Earth. The average NPC in FR has higher stats, overall, than your typical medieval human, most likely, among other differences. Hard physical labour makes you lithe and waifish? You've never done hard physical labour, have you? It depends on the form of hard labor, really. I demand realism, full stop. Or rather, since it's not "realistic" to have magic, etc, a realistic flavour. I don't get that from, say, this: Her armour is going to be uncomfortable, cause her injury, fail to protect vital organs, make her freeze her **** off, and she's too weedy to wield that sword. We can't expect full realism in any game. But we can expect a realistic flavour. With this, I heartily agree. Realistic flavor. And there's nothing about the descriptions of the female NPCs in Waterdeep that don't seem unrealistic to the point of being improbable and illogical, really. :) |
| GothicDan07-26-05, 01:40 PM | This is to anyone who plays/played D&D with females. Have you ever seen a female player generate a female PC with a lower than average Charisma score? I have never and I often play D&D with females. Conversely, how often have you seen men generate male characters that had lower than average Charisma scores? Most guys that I play D&D with stat drop charisma in a point buy system unless they are playing paladins or sorcerers. Draw whatever conclusions you like from this, Darrian, we may dislike each other at times, but I thank you for reinforcing my point. That being (straight) males care less for their appearance than females do, and this is reflected in the FR setting. |
| Darrian07-26-05, 02:30 PM | Your point is 95%+ correct. I am an exception to your statement because I am in the fitness industry and I spend more time, money and energy on my physical appearance than just about anyone. In FR, your point is probably 100% correct. Darrian (High maintenance and then some) |
| ClobberinTime07-26-05, 02:53 PM | Razz- Probably less creepy than not thinking about it at all. I'm sorry your parents don't let you game when you want to but it is no one's fault but your own so don't take it out on others. Don't be afraid of Girls either they are your friends, all misogyny aside. Hope this helps..... |
| Crust07-26-05, 03:29 PM | What really surprises me is how someone can sit there with a D&D book and analyze it to the point of reading lines between the lines until they managed to come up with something that's similar to a real-world issue and slap a label on it to call it "stereotyped fantasy female NPCs---sexist!" Amazing. Come on now, do you people really have THAT much time on your hands? Pretty creepy. It's no wonder us gamers alone are stereotyped. Very nicely put. Allow me to add my two cents American. I see this phenomena as the vile, nefarious designs of the Wizards staff to subliminally inform gamers across the world that ugly, overweight females could never, ever be heroes, and would certainly never be worthy of a blurb in a sourcebook, let alone a Waterdeep sourcebook. It's also an attempt to subliminally show young gamers that it's bad to be fat. So very bad! It's a conspiracy juggernaut. This was Greenwood's plan from the very beginning! The ugly Faerunians are out there, people, if you just look for them. But who wants to do that? They're ugly! I understand the idea that we're being flooded with images of skinny models and 6-pack abs and all that, and that can be discouraging and depressing for some, but I would rather have that than a world where no one really cares about weight, where we're totally complacent, rolling around in a sea of doughnuts, cackling at how blissful life is without that annoying voice in our heads saying, "Get fit. You'll probably live longer." It's an interesting (and somewhat humorously disturbing) observation that most (if not all) FR female characters are beautiful and/or slim, waifish, or athletic, but I don't see ugly, overweight females getting anywhere in Faerun as worldly heroines or charismatic leaders, unless that ugly, overweight female is a drow elf matron who has allowed herself to grow fat and complacent with power, at which point she'd be knifed in the back by a slim, beautiful drow female, which would cause another disgruntled gamer/reader to interpret yet another example of how it's bad to be fat and/or ugly. ...Maybe I should put a [/sarcasm] here too. ;) |
| ClobberinTime07-26-05, 04:53 PM | I think you are right on, but its true for the men too. How many ugly stupid jelly donut and pizza gorging spare tire wielding men with pimples do you think are gathering armies in Faerun? |
| Crust07-26-05, 05:34 PM | Yes. I was speaking of both genders, of course. My example only happens to involve an overweight drow matron mother. ;) |
| Alac Luin07-26-05, 05:59 PM | Has anyone considered the idea that perhaps there is a reason that many of the Females in Waterdeep are presented that way to convey a feeling? It's like going to LA, a city where appearances are prominent. Superficial looks play a bigger more exaggerated role then in other places, more so with the women then men. Or I can take it that woman are attractive, or at least have one aspect that can be attractive, and by virtue of being male, even if I work out and get a fit muscled body, look dignified, keep facial hair neatly trimmed, or have fine facial features I have no hope of being considered attractive at all. |
| Darrian07-26-05, 06:05 PM | Alac please stop, your saying Waterdeep is like Los Angeles really irks me. I live in Los Angeles and I love it. I really do not like Waterdeep, but if you are right, and maybe you are, then I need to reevaluate my feelings towards Waterdeep. Darrian (I love L.A. but I hate the sports teams. GO YANKEE'S) |
| ClobberinTime07-26-05, 06:09 PM | Probably more cosmopolitan than LA, I'm thinking Paris or someplace cool.....like NY, NY..... |
| Alac Luin07-26-05, 06:12 PM | Perhaps it would be better to say "How many people perceive LA" :) |
| Darrian07-26-05, 06:14 PM | This is a clear case of perception equalling reality. Darrian |
| Dargoth07-26-05, 06:15 PM | 33. Algorind: has strong features, short, fair, curly hair, and a guileless, direct blue-eyed gaze. Leader of Holy Order of the Knights of Samular. What the hell? At the end of Thornhold this character hadnt even taken his Paladins voe and by the end of the novel he was pretty much in disgrace! How on earth did he end up becoming the Leader of the Holy Order of Samular in so short a time!?!?!!? |
| GothicDan07-26-05, 08:38 PM | Kuje-Calvin Klein Model Gothic Dan- Tommy Model Alac Luin- Timberland Boot model Darkest of Angels- Polo Model Clobberin Time- Actor/Model(he is in the new F4) Damien_Hiro- OP Model Can't I be an A&F model instead? ;) |
| Axegrrl07-26-05, 10:34 PM | Here's my take on it... I want to see all those "beautiful" female NPCs when they are not using one of the following: - Hat of Disguise (only 1800gp) - item of Alter Self - item of Change Self - any of numerous similar items Now, as for the reason why said NPCs are using such items: typical male reactions to "beautiful" vs. "non-beautiful" females. At least 2/3 of the characters I play have Charisma as the "dump stat". |
| Alac Luin07-26-05, 10:50 PM | Now, as for the reason why said NPCs are using such items: typical male reactions to "beautiful" vs. "non-beautiful" females. Statements like these can be rather funny, but in truth missleading. I'd expand, but it would make this an ugly thread. Faults of real life often do make things ugly. |
| Axegrrl07-26-05, 10:52 PM | Just posting from my own experience as a non-beautiful female. |
| Alac Luin07-26-05, 11:09 PM | Just posting from my own experience as a non-beautiful female. I really don't want to diminish that which are your life experiences. Sincerely, I do not wish to offend you in any manner. There is some truth to your statement, indeed. From my life experiences, I have learned, women for the most part don't "get made up ..etc for men, they do it for other women (no, I'm not referring to something that belongs on the mature boards). This is a truth, that may not seem right, and it can be an ugly thing. Sure, not every female fits this stereotype. But it does exist, in places like LA and presumably Waterdeep. |
| Tiernee07-27-05, 01:18 AM | We can leave out women with no description: fair's fair, there are male characters with equally lacking description and we cannot make a balanced decision about their appearance based on something which isn't there. This leaves us 21 descriptions to work on. Out of 21, we have: 13 women described as beautiful. Even an arclich. Several which focus on their lithe, thin, athletic or otherwise trimmed bodies with absolutely no extra fat. 1 description where "plump" is mentioned. 1 description which says 'sturdly built'. 1 description with beard (although I had thought that FR dwarves were beardless?) 1 description which can be related as "ugly" -- due to overuse of cosmetics. (Yes, I do know that belladonna was used in Real World.) Likewise, many of these women fit within the stereotypes of Madonna, woman-of-negotiable-persuasion or mother, with some doses of 'chick with a serious attitude problem' and 'ice queen' mixed in. There is also a description which reads as 'female empowerement through rape/captivity'. Also, one of the Lords is introduced to us as "Kitten". I've read through male descriptions as well, and there's more variation: several male NPCs have been described as 'fat' or 'stocky' or 'plump' or having body-shapes and appearances which do not conform to modern ideals of beauty. Just to compare notes, I just went through "Shining South", and I found above examples... lacking. I did not spot seriously exaggerated sex-kittens, nor NPCs that were pushed out of a factory that makes Beautiful Fantasy Women (tm). What happened? What happened in writing and editing process? I'm seriously disappointed by these examples in a book I otherwise found entertaining and useful. :( :weep: Why are you disappointed? I'm pretty confused. Do you pick up Cosmo and get offended that Kate Hudson is smoking hot something like a year removed from having a baby? Does Oprah offend you because she's shed a lot of weight in the past year? How about Nicole Kidman? Offended because she's arguably one of the most beautiful movie stars in the world? Powerful women are beautiful, and for the few that aren't, well they have ankle bracelets. Back to me being pretty confused. These are spotlight NPCs so to speak, and of course they're powerful. If you were a powerful woman wielding the power of the gods would you looke twice removed from Jenny Craig wondering if that next Twinkie will hurt -that- much? I don't think so. If one of my PCs were to meet a chunked up version of one of these NPCs, they'd find it pretty difficult to take them seriously. The Realms are pretty medieval in general and unless you're a baker, I don't see the option to eat your weight in pie. Powerful people are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, they surround themselves with beautiful people. All of my musings aside, lets get to the heart of this. The majority of DnD players are men. If they picked up a book and got to read about the chubby rogue "Cow" character, do you think the books would sell? I'm sure there is some sense somewhere that the stories of Faerun are 'violated' because they're not the next Dove Body Beautiful campaign, but that's really too bad. At the end of the day people want to read about people who appeal to their senses. I really don't see someone like Drizzt being half as popular if he was some chubby guy with pants that need suspenders to hold up. I hope that the writers keep creating beautiful people to fill their beautiful worlds, because I don't want anyone to try and sell me on the 'super powerful sorcerer that is 5'4 and weighs 250 pounds'. I don't buy it. I've never met anyone who is overweight who would not like to see their situation changed, nor have I met anyone who is 'not beautiful' by their own definition that doesn't try new haircolors, makeup, and styles to make themselves more attractive. I don't make my characters hot for anyone but me. I don't want them to be average. I don't want any of this fantasy to be average. For anyone who has played DnD for a long time like me, sometimes your characters and adventures fill your dreams. I certainly don't want to dream in ugly. Incidently, of all the men I've RPd with, the most fantastic roleplayers have been the ones who care about themselves in reality. They are very focused on their character's appearance and nuances because they know that sometimes that's just as important as how many maximized fireballs they can drop. I can hope when the orc book comes out we aren't on this again about why some orcs have bigger clubs than others and the inequality of it all. In closing, please don't ask them to start making fat, ugly DnD minis to make things more 'realistic', this IS fantasy. -the girl who asks how hot the male NPC is to see if her PC sleeping with him will benefit the party. |
| Kadasbrass07-27-05, 02:54 AM | *BZZZT* "Sorry, wrong answer." In which alternate physiology world do you live, mate? The bizarro world where "lifting heavy loads" makes you SLIMMER? That's how Arnold Schwarzenegger became the mere wisp of a man he is today! The medieval diet was a very high-carbohydrate diet. They weren't skinny at all, male or female. If they were, it was called a "famine" usually coming from a "flood" or "drought." Rural work makes you heavy. If you don't consume enough to be heavy, then sure, you slim down - but then you can't work, and those who can't work, well, they die. Peasants aren't skinny. Anyone's who's done any hard physical labour would know this. I guess you lads spent too much quality time at the keyboard to realise this. Nobles aren't skinny, either. Where the peasants ate mostly basic grains, the nobles ate mostly meat and fruit. Your rigth, hardwork won't make them slim, but their definetly not going to be FAT from doing it. It would however help regulate them to a average weight which is still thinner then todays average weigth. Also maybe saying slim was a bad choice of words on my part, since by saying slim I don't mean to create the image that all women from the middle ages where super model slim, but they were to a large degree thin. |
| Jim Bob07-27-05, 03:47 AM | Your rigth, hardwork won't make them slim, but their definetly not going to be FAT from doing it. It would however help regulate them to a average weight which is still thinner then todays average weigth. Dude, with your grasp of historical accuracy you should enjoy the Most Historically Accurate Game Ever (http://www.fatalgames.com/). Go, download the sample, have fun! |
| ClobberinTime07-27-05, 10:57 AM | So this is starting to get amusing.... Are all of you guys really that threatened by the idea that a woman could be successfull and not look like Nicole Kidman. Its hilarious this kind of histrionic reaction on the part of many of you. I think that in a way the stereotype that most people have of gamers is being born out to be shockingly true. Its probably just an age thing though. Being 13 is hard, I remember it, and the girls were a bit bigger than us for a year or two, so in a weird way I understand. 1, I don't think that anyone was trying to take away your fantasy babes, all the first poster was after was a realization that it is ok to portray fat ugly guys as being successfull and that its not to portray fat ugly women that way. This is a societal view that is slowly changing and is true. 2, I guess its true that most gamers are socially inadequate in some deep seated way, and that this is just a display of what should sort of be expected. 3, This very same social inadequacy sometimes creates poorly thought out expressions of loathing and blame that rarely rest on one's own inadequacies but blames society- In this case this one woman pointing out a simple truth about one of the sourcebooks. 4, Its important for everyone to have achievable role models. I wonder if the first poster complained because everyone in the fantasy world was white, that you guys would have used the same arguments- Well its ok because in fact our society supports the stereotypes that white people are smarter and more successful. Now if you think this is ok then you probably think that is ok. 5, Perhaps the most disturbing thing out of all of them, is that you have all gotten together and convinced yourselves that this anti-social behavior is in some sense part of gaming, and is normal. When in fact it also is neither acceptable or normal. |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 11:24 AM | I hope that the writers keep creating beautiful people to fill their beautiful worlds, because I don't want anyone to try and sell me on the 'super powerful sorcerer that is 5'4 and weighs 250 pounds'. I don't buy it. I've never met anyone who is overweight who would not like to see their situation changed, nor have I met anyone who is 'not beautiful' by their own definition that doesn't try new haircolors, makeup, and styles to make themselves more attractive. I don't make my characters hot for anyone but me. I don't want them to be average. I don't want any of this fantasy to be average. For anyone who has played DnD for a long time like me, sometimes your characters and adventures fill your dreams. I certainly don't want to dream in ugly. Incidently, of all the men I've RPd with, the most fantastic roleplayers have been the ones who care about themselves in reality. They are very focused on their character's appearance and nuances because they know that sometimes that's just as important as how many maximized fireballs they can drop. Hear, hear, and triple hear! Working towards perfection includes perfecting your body, no matter what modern liberals tell you otherwise. It's part of evolutionary biology and psychology. ('Hey, he has muscle, therefore he makes the neurotransmitters in the 'Attracted' part of my brain start flowing, due to evolutionary tendencies which tell me that he may be able to provide better for me/my children because he is more likely to survive!') No matter what, there will always, always be a focus on the physical aspect of attraction. The only way this would ever change, for a long term period (not just a few decades/hundred years with fads) would be if we completely lost our corporeal bodies. And someone who wants to completely lose their physical bodies is someone who is too afraid to try to change who they are for the better. I know, because I was one of those people once - I focused entirely on the intellectual. Then I realized, 'Hey, why stop there?" And now, I WILL be that A&F model. Even if it kills me. Mwahahaha..... 4, Its important for everyone to have achievable role models. I wonder if the first poster complained because everyone in the fantasy world was white, that you guys would have used the same arguments- Well its ok because in fact our society supports the stereotypes that white people are smarter and more successful. Now if you think this is ok then you probably think that is ok. Skin coloration is not a condition that one can easily change; it requires magic, entirely, to change for good. Also, it is not directly damaging to one's health, which being overweight is. 5, Perhaps the most disturbing thing out of all of them, is that you have all gotten together and convinced yourselves that this anti-social behavior is in some sense part of gaming, and is normal. When in fact it also is neither acceptable or normal. Actually, I consider it the opposite. By having beautiful people in gaming, I feel that it inspires us to be like those people. One of the reasons why I got interested in physics was because it was the closest I could get to being a wizard. To further that goal, I have for the past 4 years been in the top 2% of my classes, and I am on my way to a BA in physics, and then a PhD in Astrophysics. D&D's portrayals of powerful, beautiful, strong archetypes can be just as inspirational for certain people as much as it can be inhibitory. It all depends on a person's idiosyncrasies. The position of modern geek is quickly being taken by Comp Sci. majors who do nothing but sit around and play EverQuest and Warcraft. Actual roleplayers I've noticed, lately, have been significantly deviating from the 'geek' stereotype, focusing more on their social lives and appearances while still attempting to maintain an adequate education. Also, my Comp Sci. major friends have readily admitted that they are the laziest college students on the planet. I have to get U-Hauls to get them into action. (Have I mentioned that Josidiah Starym is hot, yet? Because he is. Oh yeah.) |
| ElGrecoETAC07-27-05, 11:32 AM | So this is starting to get amusing.... Are all of you guys really that threatened by the idea that a woman could be successfull and not look like Nicole Kidman. No, all of us guys (and a lady or two) find it curious that some people take umbrage at the fact that NPCs with the resources to look good, or who are involved in careers that place stock in beauty, might actually be described as looking good. Its hilarious this kind of histrionic reaction on the part of many of you. Please. No one's being melodramatic or excessive. If anything, some people here are simply being vocal about complaints based on a weak argument. I think that in a way the stereotype that most people have of gamers is being born out to be shockingly true. So you argue against stereotypes by using a stereotype? Interesting. ...the first poster was after was a realization that it is ok to portray fat ugly guys as being successfull and that its not to portray fat ugly women that way. This is a societal view that is slowly changing and is true. The first poster was trying to draw a correlation between how we see successful women in our modern world and how women might be in a fantasy world. It's not a very gogent argument. While we, as a society, as becoming more accepting of "average", "regular" women (see the new Dove ads, for example), the vast majority of the entertainment world (advertising, music, movies, adult entertainment) still revolves very much around beauty. Our point is don't be surprised if people in Faerun's equivalent of the entertainment world are, on the average, good-looking. Don't be surprised if people with resources equivalent to those of millionaire heiresses spend time to look good. 2, I guess its true that most gamers are socially inadequate in some deep seated way, and that this is just a display of what should sort of be expected. Please. Once more, you are the one trying to apply negative stereotypes. You know next to nothing about most the posters here, or their circle of gamers/friends. 3, This very same social inadequacy sometimes creates poorly thought out expressions of loathing and blame that rarely rest on one's own inadequacies but blames society- In this case this one woman pointing out a simple truth about one of the sourcebooks. Yeah, the original poster is "society." Lalalalala. Very cogent. Out of curiosity, where did you get your degree in Psychology, Psychiatry, or what have you? What research project did you embark on to get the data I'm sure you have on "most gamers"? 4, Its important for everyone to have achievable role models. I wonder if the first poster complained because everyone in the fantasy world was white, that you guys would have used the same arguments- ... This is plainly absurd. There has never been a shortage of varied ethnic groups within the Forgotten Realms. Furthermore, you're talking about a game company that has gone to great lengths to to address variety and stereotype-breaking through several avenues. Not the least of which are women in power, improbable races for improbable roles, etc. And, by the way... you're reaching, assuming, and setting new standards for amounts of conjecture per post, once more. 5, Perhaps the most disturbing thing out of all of them, is that you have all gotten together and convinced yourselves that this anti-social behavior is in some sense part of gaming, and is normal. When in fact it also is neither acceptable or normal. I am left dumbfounded. |
| ClobberinTime07-27-05, 11:34 AM | The mind body thing is true, but what I still don't get is a subculture (gamers) having an ideal well beyond normal society about physical beauty for men and women, that they can never ever achieve. I mean we have all been to Cons right. Adonis just isn't there. Even the ones who exercise are a littl off in the way they look, definitely not pretty people, Seems odd to me thats all..... Oh well the grass is always greener somewhere..... |
| ElGrecoETAC07-27-05, 11:40 AM | The mind body thing is true, but what I still don't get is a subculture (gamers) having an ideal well beyond normal society about physical beauty for men and women, that they can never ever achieve. I mean we have all been to Cons right. Adonis just isn't there. Even the ones who exercise are a littl off in the way they look, definitely not pretty people, Seems odd to me thats all..... Oh well the grass is always greener somewhere..... Where the heck are you getting your arguments from?!? You simply can't speak for a group of people who number in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on this continent alone! You don't know me! You don't know my friends! ...Or, for that matter, how any of us look like! You've seen maybe 1-2% of North American gamers, and you are applying a stereotype to everyone else you haven't met. Furthemore, no one is talking about "an ideal well beyond society." They are talking about specific NPCs in specific strata of society. Do you get this? Or are you going to continue to pretend that you know how we game, how we look, and how we aspire to look? |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 11:40 AM | The mind body thing is true, but what I still don't get is a subculture (gamers) having an ideal well beyond normal society about physical beauty for men and women, that they can never ever achieve. I mean we have all been to Cons right. Adonis just isn't there. Even the ones who exercise are a littl off in the way they look, definitely not pretty people, Seems odd to me thats all..... Oh well the grass is always greener somewhere..... You're using CONS as examples of the typical gamer? Oh my. That being said - it's better always to -try- to be perfect. In my opinion, ambition is just as attractive as achieving certain goals, and I find it even better when someone has to actively work harder to achieve those goals. |
| ClobberinTime07-27-05, 11:43 AM | You guys are cracking me up! My evidence is from this post its plain as day. The social deficient aspect is pretty obvious. Plus there is an analogy between beauty and race. Fit isn't the only component people also have genetically determined facial features, which they cannot change. Well not without alot of money. :) There is a stereotype in the idea that to be successful women have to be beautiful which is being reinforced in the waterdeep sourcebook. This is the point. The realms has been good about other cultures, my comment didn't have anything to do with that. This is great you amuse me. |
| ClobberinTime07-27-05, 11:48 AM | GD- I always knew your were an Aristotelian at heart. Thats straight out of the metaphysics. Grecoguy- Your response is proving my point, when I stereotype you (which I did on purpose by the way) you get all bent out of shape. When you stereotype others its not a big deal right, i.e. women have to be pretty to be successful!!!!! I am hoping this lesson will be remembered. Still amusing. I haven't had this much fun since the last time I took candy from a baby! |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 11:51 AM | CT, I didn't stereotype women. I simply made sociological, biological, and psychological generalizations of them (and men as well, if you will look again) based on actual textbook studies. As Greco said, there has been no actual studies on the RPer population. And if you meant the above stereotyping statement only towards Greco, it wouldn't make any sense, because he hasn't even posted on this thread before a few minutes ago... AND SO WHAT IF I LIKE PRETTY BOYS?! ;) I'd also like to thank Tiernee for posting her response in this thread, as it shows that our opinions are held not only by "ugly fat male gamers." I personally see women who use their looks and their bodies to be successful as some of the most brilliant females in the world, as long as such looks are coupled with a keen mind. (Jacqueline Carey, anyone?)* *The author who portrays such females, and has a BA in both English Literature and Psychology. (I've only editted this most about 3.7 million times.) |
| ElGrecoETAC07-27-05, 12:14 PM | My evidence is from this post its plain as day. The social deficient aspect is pretty obvious. Obviously not... seeing as how your supposed test group is, at best, not indicative of the greater gamer population at large. The fact of the matter is that most of your examples are purely anecdotal in origin. There is a stereotype in the idea that to be successful women have to be beautiful which is being reinforced in the waterdeep sourcebook. This is the point. That stereotype, at best, belongs to 21st century earth--and, as you said, is being disproved (which is a good thing, incidentally). Waterdeep does nothing more than describe the rich and powerful (*not* the merely successful) and those engaged in the entertainment industry as being, on the average, good-looking. You can consider this a use of stereotypes, if you wish, but I would refer you to simply Google "sexism in hollywood". Failing that, you can continue to deny the idea that the equivalents of Renaissance millionaire heirs wouldn't use their resources at hand to make themselves look good. The realms has been good about other cultures, my comment didn't have anything to do with that. You brought up a strawman that had nothing to do with the subject at hand. Your response is proving my point, when I stereotype you (which I did on purpose by the way) you get all bent out of shape. Oh, I'm sure you were so surgical in your so-called argument. You're so cunning... :rolleyes: When you stereotype others its not a big deal right, i.e. women have to be pretty to be successful!!!!! I am hoping this lesson will be remembered. Newsflash! You were, or are, attempting to either 1) Stereotype a group without any sort of logical or accurately measurable method... or 2) "Pretend" to stereotype in an effort to continue a weak, flawed argument that continually ignores your opposition's points! |
| ElGrecoETAC07-27-05, 12:21 PM | And if you meant the above stereotyping statement only towards Greco, it wouldn't make any sense, because he hasn't even posted on this thread before a few minutes ago... I did, on the first page. I argued that the original poster was *not* picking out random NPCs to support her assertation. My point, as I think *most* people here have been able to see, centers around the idea that the majority of the NPCs she picked out fall under groups that don't conform with the average norm of the world she lives in. In simple, layman's terms, the average woman in the United States of America, per the government's own numbers, is roughly 5'4", 150lbs or so. The reason the *average* American woman looks like this is rooted in dietary, activity, and exercise factors that have nothing to do with either 1) Women in Faerun in general. 2) Women in Waterdeep in general. 3) Women who specialize in entertainment careers anywhere 4) Women from a culture- and wealth-specific, aristocratic background. |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 12:23 PM | Oh right, Greco. I remember now. Sorry about that, Clobberin (and Greco)! I admit my shameful ignorance and lack of detail. I shall proceed in the flagellation now. |
| ClobberinTime07-27-05, 12:37 PM | The whole point of that interlude was to exhibit the point that groups of people, in this case 'women' care about how they are portrayed in works of fiction and that how they are portrayed is important. The same is true apparently given the response to 'gamers' as well. Very very interesting. I would be willing to bet that WoTC has a ton of statistical information on the gaming community. I'll go on one of the sociology search engines, I bet there is alot more data out there than one would think, after all most major universities have American Studies departments now. Greco- I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the role of women in our society. Good luck with that.... |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 12:43 PM | CB, you seem to be entirely missing Greco's point. He's not stating what the role of women in society is - he is stating currently how they are portrayed in the media. It's not a preference thing he's talking about. That being said, there ISN'T a lot of studies out there for that stuff any more, because of moral restrictions that have been becoming more prevalent on psychological research. (For instance, what Skinner did wouldn't be allowed today.) And the gaming population is such a relatively small, insignificant caste of the population that if there are any studies to be found (there might be a few out there), they probably will be from the 80s, when RPGs were linked with suicide/homicide/etc. so often thanks to religious groups. Any statistics from the 80s I do not think would be terribly applicable to the modern gaming society as a whole. Also: The whole point of that interlude was to exhibit the point that groups of people, in this case 'women' care about how they are portrayed in works of fiction and that how they are portrayed is important. The same is true apparently given the response to 'gamers' as well. This doesn't make much sense, but it may have been your diction. What you said above implies that gamers care how they are portrayed in works of fiction. There aren't any RPers in any FR sources, as far as I know. And fantasy is not reality, so you cannot make an analogy between how RPers feel they are portrayed in real life versus how women (or any group) feel they are portrayed in fantasy. Once more, you don't see me running around screaming about the fact that none of the above NPCs are stated to be homosexual, and one's sexuality is just as personal (if not moreso) than one's gender. I may have brought it up in a thread or two, but that's not the same as taking a careful analysis of a specific product, point by point, and trying to generalize my personal preferences to everyone else's sentiments. |
| ElGrecoETAC07-27-05, 01:01 PM | Greco- I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the role of women in our society. Good luck with that.... What part of "I'm not talking about women in our society" are you not getting?!? What will it take to make you understand that there is no cut-and-dry group called "successful women", as relates to appearance and fitness levels? What will it take to get you to admit that there is, in fact, a beauty-based bias where women in entertainment careers are concerned? He's not stating what the role of women in society is - he is stating currently how they are portrayed in the media. It's not a preference thing he's talking about. Thank you! For the record, I like wasting unreasonable amounts of money on ritzy clothing, and spend more time than I should running, swimming, and otherwise working out to keep myself in trip shape. I'm regularly given a hard time at work for the attention I give to my hair. On the flip side, I jump out of planes and call in air strikes for the USAF, and like dating girls with a bit of a punk-rock flavor. I am, by no means trying to convince anyone that Scarlett Johanson, Keira Knightly, or Jessica Simpson (or Brad Pitt, or Orlando Bloom, or what have you, Dan ;) ) should either rock your world or be the ideal you should rock your world out to! I'm simply saying... don't be surprised when Waterdeep's equivalent to Paris Hilton or the dancer from a Gentlemens Club (or Chippendales, Dan) is described along the lines of the norm for that vocation or position in society! :) |
| ClobberinTime07-27-05, 01:08 PM | I was just yanking your guys chains thats all. Couldn't help it. Have a good day. I gotta go get some work done. :) |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 01:14 PM | Thank you! For the record, I like wasting unreasonable amounts of money on ritzy clothing, and spend more time than I should running, swimming, and otherwise working out to keep myself in trip shape. I'm regularly given a hard time at work for the attention I give to my hair. On the flip side, I jump out of planes and call in air strikes for the USAF, and like dating girls with a bit of a punk-rock flavor. You're welcome! Ah, swimming. One of the best athletic activities. It's wonderful, and I wish I could do it more. At least I'll have access to a regular gym again when I go back to school next month. And, heh, personal grooming. Half of my money goes towards clothing (black, usually, but more professional than gothic/punk), and the other half goes towards books, CDs, and DVDs. How fun is the jumping out of planes, bit? I've always considered sky-diving might be fun, considering how much I love flying, and sticking as much of my body out a car window as I can while driving at obscene speeds. I am, by no means trying to convince anyone that Scarlett Johanson, Keira Knightly, or Jessica Simpson (or Brad Pitt, or Orlando Bloom, or what have you, Dan ) should either rock your world or be the ideal you should rock your world out to! I'm simply saying... don't be surprised when Waterdeep's equivalent to Paris Hilton or the dancer from a Gentlemens Club (or Chippendales, Dan) is described along the lines of the norm for that vocation or position in society! Simply your taking me into account makes my day and suffuses me with laughter. ;) Orlando Bloom, though? Gah. Gag me! He has the most blank face ever, and the only other young male actor who can compete with his lack of skill is Hayden Christianson (who nonetheless has the anguished-look down, as well as having a nice chest). In any event, Greco's point is that either getting rich and powerful in public venues usually requires one to at least slightly be above average appearance, or otherwise striking enough to stand out in some way (many of the females presented are of the latter sort). And once one is in such a position, it only gives them access to become more unique looking. And the very fact that Skiri posted this kind of highlights my original argument that, from a sociological point of view, women care more about their appearance than men do, one way or the other. I didn't see her complaining about any other facet of the female NPCs in Waterdeep, which suggests that it is a purely personal bias based off of an idiosyncratic characteristic. We don't have the males here complaining about the greater-than-average number of attractively described male characters. (In fact, at least one other than myself has expressed approval of this fact.) Why should having an above-average appearance be any worse than having an above-average Strength or Intelligence? That is a classical sign of the stereotypical roleplaying population, being disgruntled by displays of superior abilities/characteristics in areas that they are usually lacking (appearance). They get angry when presented with such things in a medium in which they otherwise feel safe (i.e. that do not mock their deficiencies). This is the stereotypical roleplayer, mind you. As I said, when my deficiencies are mocked (which isn't often), I get angry. And I get better. So, Clobberin, if you should be upset by anyone representing stereotypes, it should be Skiri. ;) |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 01:16 PM | Okay, CT, if you are willing to let it rest, so am I. Besides, I need to go do my hair. I think I'm running low on styling gel... EDIT: Apparently, I abbreviate ClobberinTime as if it was spelled ClotterinBine. |
| Jim Bob07-27-05, 07:01 PM | You guys are hilarious. "But h4wt chixxors are historically accurate." "But the book isn't sexist, because I style my hair, and I'm a boy." "My precious! Nasty girlses, trying to take away my pixx of t3h b00bies!" "Historically accurate! Sociological! H4wt chixxors!" :D |
| GothicDan07-27-05, 07:23 PM | Who exactly was screaming about hot chicks? Not me, certainly. I was screaming about the hot guys, and don't give a darn how hot the chicks are. I still think it's accurate, though, to have more of the women hot than the men... Even if it's only a small margin. ;) |
| ElGrecoETAC07-27-05, 08:24 PM | Ah, Jim Bob. A day late and a buck short, as usual. :D |
| Tiernee07-28-05, 12:43 AM | You guys are hilarious. "But h4wt chixxors are historically accurate." "But the book isn't sexist, because I style my hair, and I'm a boy." "My precious! Nasty girlses, trying to take away my pixx of t3h b00bies!" "Historically accurate! Sociological! H4wt chixxors!" :D It's cute how you managed to quote no one. The rest of us have somehow managed to comprehend that this is a FANTASY world. If I want the average and mundane I'll turn on my morning news. To go back to my earlier post, I'd be severely disappointed if this world became 'politically correct' because someone felt they'd be more comfortable reading about Patty the Pudgy Paladin. -still giggling over the post that started all of this |
| Waylander07-28-05, 11:48 AM | hahhahahhaahha :rofl: I can see it now.... The big bad ass female paladin says, "Oh wait, I gained 30 lbs in the last festival and adventure. Scream the dragon, I'm gonna take a diet vacation and slim up first!" |
| GothicDan07-28-05, 12:07 PM | Tiernee, I like you. :D Also, if said Paladin was fighting a dragon, I'm sure she would care a heck of a lot about gaining 30 pounds, unless it was in muscle. That would put her at a huge disadvantage, physically, in terms of combat... Outrunning dragons isn't easy. |
| Faraer07-28-05, 12:48 PM | From Ed's 1999 Forgotten Times interview (http://www.defragsrealms.com/times/archive/ftedint.html):I also, of course, like the gosh-wow factor of seeing spells work (blam, bah-woom!), a gigantic dragon blot out the sky as it flies overhead, breathtaking woods and crumbling castles, guys and gals of physical beauty striding around in armor, and so on. Purple sands in the deserts of Raurin, achingly beautiful ruby-red sunsets.... all that sort of thing.That is, beautiful heroes is part of the premise of the Realms, as well as part of the genre, and a feature of fiction generally, in which physical beauty can be a sign of moral authority, of which modern face/body fascism is a corruption. |
| GothicDan07-28-05, 02:29 PM | It's always amusing when people willingly set themselves up within/under certain establishments (governments, campaign settings, etc.) just to scream for a change of the way that things have been before said person even came about. |
| Jonathan Strange07-28-05, 03:12 PM | Thank you Tiernee, that about sums it up for me too. I tend to think of D&D as I would a movie or TV. Everyone in it is pretty much going to be a charismatic, attractive person and if they're not, they were cast that way on purpose. I have no interest in realism in my Forgotten Realms, I want it to look like movies, how I imagine characters in fiction and all the fantasy artwork I've seen. So bring on the hot chicks with chainmail bikini's, beautiful, wizardly women busting out of thier robes with thigh high boots and pretty boy fighters with perfect hair and ripped abs that look like they spend 4 hours at the gym and tanning before they came out to slay the dragon. |
| Another Gnome07-28-05, 06:00 PM | Phef. My characters of either sex (well, except for the half-orcs) tend to look pretty at the beginning of the campaign like those of everyone else, but I also have a tendency to make sure they don't look like that after a few months of fighting. Broken noses, cut-off extremities, missing and chipped teeth, enough scars to make the skin look like a fishnet; that's what real adventurers look like! :fight!: Also a damn good reason to buy that hat of disguise at the first opportunity... |
| GothicDan07-28-05, 06:11 PM | My prettiest character was either my first character, my Faerie Elf Enchanter/Rogue, or my Fire Genasi. The latter had a CHA of 16, and the former was either 15 or 16. This was in 2E, mind you. Of course, that doesn't include the online character I've had for 8 years now. *cough*CHA44*COUGH* |
| choragos07-28-05, 07:45 PM | Perhaps this makes me a minority (as usual), but I liked the original post in this thread because it showed up an essential weakness of creating universes that has nothing in particular to do with gender. The Realms are intended to provide an all-purpose background for an incredible variety of games. When game designers allow themselves to fall into a rut -- whether it's "all women must be gorgeous" or "all wizards must live in isolated towers", they narrow the scope of the game environment. Would anyone be happy if all monsters had the same two-claws-and-a-bite-attack? Let a million flowers bloom, says I, even if some appear to be weeds. Every adventuring party will have its own ideas about How Things Work -- both in-game and out-of-game. Speaking only for myself, I think the great fun of the Realms is that there's so much going on that my ideas can be reinforced OR knocked down at any time. There's been some exceedingly childish chatter in this thread from people who have their knickers in knots. Personally I think the matter of what MEN want is pretty clear if occasionally a bit tiresome; as a man myself, I take my cues about what women want from the Arthurian tale (in Chaucer is it?) about a knight's choice: Did he want his wife to be a gorgeous babe in the bedroom and a crone outside it, or the other way round? His answer shows the best wisdom on the subject yet written IMHO. |
| Jonathan Strange07-28-05, 09:13 PM | I hear ya and I'll all for versatility. It's not as if my PCs run into beautiful people where ever they go. But going back to the beginning of this thread. Those descriptions from Waterdeep? Who cares. They were just a few lines. It wasn't like they were all 18 Charismas with bust, waist and hip sizes of supermodels and movie gods. So a handful of attractive women (and men) rose to a position of power in a massive metropolis. You want "realism", there you have it. Personally the one liner descriptions are fine, I think they're just there for a DM to pick up the ball and run with it if he wants to use it or if novelists are going to include these people. It was Eds right to create these NPCs as he wished, who are we to critisize his vision? If you don't dig it, put ugly people in your game, thats your right. Nobody is stopping you. We can't obviously see these people for real so I'm more interested in thier stats and feats then how good looking they are, (not that those tags even really got into it anyway). But again, when playing D&D think about what these people are going to look like if Hollywood brought them to life. They'd be attractive and dynamic in some way, even the ugly ones. There's more realism for you. I just wonder what people are thinking when they start moaning for realism in fantasy and worse, politcal correctness. Real life is stressful and boring enough, I don't need that bag in my fantasy world. If such things were to become the norm to appease a few ultra sensitives, D&D would become as the famous mad poster Arturick once put it "two guys in the backyard, hitting each other with sticks." Sorry, but I'm not having any of that. Maybe fantasy art has warped our view of what we think or want fantasy people look like. Then again, you might as well throw TV, movies, video games and art in general then. Then add human imagination and wishful thinking while your at it. Sometimes a cigar is just cigar. Sometimes an NPC description is just an NPC description. I don't think they set out to be descriminatory or hurt anyone. |
| GothicDan07-28-05, 09:36 PM | I'd just like to say... I like beautiful people. I like people who are beautiful in mind, spirit, body, heart, what have you. :) |
| Bullet-proof Monk07-28-05, 10:34 PM | Okay, CT, if you are willing to let it rest, so am I. Besides, I need to go do my hair. I think I'm running low on styling gel... EDIT: Apparently, I abbreviate ClobberinTime as if it was spelled ClotterinBine. I think you'll find Danny(GD, whatever)involved in a number of conflicts on these boards. Not all mind you, but many of the threads he participates in lead to arguments between himself & another member(or members). Many of those that arent straight out arguments, reek of the kind of opinionated(My opinion is right, yours is wrong. Or I'm the authority on X, Y & Z)attitude that just begs for one. That aside. Skiriki isnt wrong in her opinion. It just varies from some of the other opinions shared. While I dont know w/100% certainty, I'll guess that the purpose of this thread was to share an opinion and receive feedback on that opinion. With the addition of others opinions aswell I'm sure. Not enter a debate that requires her to justify her stance on the matter..or her opinion. She doesnt need to justify it. Its her right as an individual to hold an individuals opinion on this matter. Hell, my opinion conflicts w/hers on the matter. Thats fine and I accept it. If we turned every opinion we didnt agree with into a I'm right and your wrong thread..than every posts subject line would read something like this: Waterdeep Sourcebook debate --- did you notice ? |
| Tiernee07-28-05, 10:39 PM | It'd be interesting to see if he/she has an opinion on the response to their opinion. |
| GothicDan07-28-05, 10:44 PM | BPM, I thank you for trolling me. If you do it again, I'll happily report you to the mods. Have a good life. :) And if you haven't noticed, I'm hardly the one who first starts arguments. I'm simply the one who is the most vocal about them, and who posts the most. I readily admit when I am blatantly wrong on a subject. After all, that's how Kuje and I first met on here. Us yelling at each other until I realized I was wrong and admitted it. |
| Kuje3107-28-05, 10:51 PM | After all, that's how Kuje and I first met on here. Us yelling at each other until I realized I was wrong and admitted it. I don't yell at people, nay! Nah! I don't, truely..... Ah hells! Whistles and walks away. |
| GothicDan07-28-05, 10:58 PM | Haha, that so made me laugh in real life, Kuje. :) |
| Bullet-proof Monk07-28-05, 11:02 PM | BPM, I thank you for trolling me. If you do it again, I'll happily report you to the mods. Be my guest. As I'd be happy to run through many of the posts you've taken part in and report your behavioral issues that violate these boards terms of use. This wouldnt be a war you'd wish to start. And if you haven't noticed,. I have noticed, and spoke up about it. Hence my initial post within this thread. Also, I dont need to be told what I have and havent read...thank you very much. I'm hardly the one who first starts arguments. I'm simply the one who is the most vocal about them, and who posts the most. The number of arguments that seemingly "follow" you around, hopping thread to thread are frequently coincidental. :rolleyes: Sorry that isnt coincidence, its pattern. |
| Skiriki07-29-05, 01:13 AM | *wheeze*hack* I got tipped that this thread is going on. Alas, I have fever running close to 39 C, and my throat is swollen shut and my nose is a random encounter factor for all kinds of oozes. I'll... ...get.. back to... *wheeze* this.. ...when I feel... a bit better, 'kie? :tissue: :zzz: :ghosted: (Roll Fort save DC 14 to avoid catching whatever this is.) |
| Jim Bob07-29-05, 01:25 AM | It's cute how you managed to quote no one. Because your words were more boring than mine. The rest of us have somehow managed to comprehend that this is a FANTASY world. So, you game for your fantasies, eh? Do you at least take a box of Kleenex with you to game sessions? Cos, you know, I wouldn't want the cheetos to get soggy... |
| Mr. Wilson07-29-05, 01:43 AM | Cheetos? Cheetos are terrible. They leave orange stains all over my books. Now Triscuits, there's a snack food. :D I'd have an opinion on the stated subject, but it seems this is mostly sniping, and thus, I don't. I'd point out though, that I've never played a plain female character. Even when it was only average CHA, it was personality driven, not looks which were at least moderate. Course, most the times I play female bards cause in a past life I'm sure I was a groupie. I've played ugly as sin males though, including the monk who looked much like Ricky Williams of the Dolphins does now, only more scraggily and less attractive. What does that mean? I dunno. Must mean having feminist girlfriends hasn't rubbed off as much as I thought. :tongue: |
| The Simbul07-29-05, 02:03 AM | I'm sorry but if the biggest fault anyone can find with City of Splendors is that the female NPC's somehow are all beautiful, then it is probably a sign that it is one the best Forgotten Realms 3E sourcebook to date, if not the best D&D release as a whole over the past few years. Sorry, but there are a hell of alot worse problems, faults, and failings a 3E FR book can have other than some conspiratorial lack of ugly female characters. Excessive numbers of exceptionally beautiful women in the company of far duller, far uglier, and far stupider men isnt a concept invented by WoTC, it is part and parcel of 3,000 years of inculcated and maturity-impaired patriarchal western culture, and exudes itself in every vestige of popular culture today. Take it up with the producers of Hollywood movies with female romantic leads 1/2 the age of the male protagonist, or the directors of music videos where bikini model extras are paid to let pronunciation-impaired platinum-toothed thugs pour vodka on them, or the photoshop technicians who "enhance" magazine cover shots and fashion billboards. |
| Tiernee07-29-05, 02:14 AM | Because your words were more boring than mine. So, you game for your fantasies, eh? Do you at least take a box of Kleenex with you to game sessions? Cos, you know, I wouldn't want the cheetos to get soggy... How's the view from under the bridge? |
| dawgfan07-29-05, 02:21 AM | Cheetos? Cheetos are terrible. They leave orange stains all over my books. Now Triscuits, there's a snack food. No, no, triscuits with CHEESE or as I like to call them "cheesecuits" and feel free to quote me on that. |
| Jonathan Strange07-29-05, 03:49 AM | Very true Simbul. Sad, shallow statement about our culture but true. And Gothic Dan, I agree, as shallow as my posts might seem, I believe true beauty has nothing to do with someone's appearance. I've seen many "hot" chicks and dudes who are ugly on the inside and it destoys any physical beauty they may have once you get to know them. On that note, I'll take my primping, metrosexual ass off this post before a troll snags me on the way to Banana Republic and Jurlique. Enjoy! |
| GothicDan07-29-05, 09:25 AM | BPM, I am ignoring your post. Talk to me again when you start making more sense. |
| GothicDan07-29-05, 09:27 AM | And I'd like to add it's always wonderful to have the Simbul's opinions on something, for they are wonderful to read indeed! |
| ElGrecoETAC07-29-05, 05:38 PM | ...His opinion regarding GothicDan... I find your use of the "Quote" function ironic, seeing as how you used Dan and Clobbering's agreement to disagree politely as evidence of the former's "behavioral issues". If he's so opinionated and difficult to deal with, why not copy and paste something that actually indicates that? ;) Skiriki posted her opinion, and some people chose to disagree with it. Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but there's nothing wrong with people using a forum like this to say "I think you're wrong, and this is why." Rational people disagree on things all the time, and "justify" their position to one another. It's called having a discussion, or even a debate--it's part of interaction. It's why these boards have threads, rather than journal-like posting options that everyone can read but none can answer to. |
| GothicDan07-29-05, 06:07 PM | Thanks, Greco. I am entirely too exasperated to engage BPM in anything resembling a civil, well-researched and documented debate just yet. I have to let the nerve centers of my brain that deal with disgusted disbelief recover for awhile yet, still. :) |
| Bullet-proof Monk07-29-05, 07:29 PM | I find your use of the "Quote" function ironic. I honestly dont care what you find or dont to find within my posts ElGreco. With that being said... ..seeing as how you used Dan and Clobbering's agreement to disagree politely as evidence of the former's "behavioral issues".. Yes, because in reading over this thread I found yet another point in which Danny found himself involved within a conflict that required an apology, the initiation of an agreement to agree to disagree(often times due to the "debate" reaching a point of personal attack or judgement), or a flat out overly opinionated argument that includes a personal judgement or two. If he's so opinionated and difficult to deal with, why not copy and paste something that actually indicates that?. I made reference to a source. Any board member reading this is capable of examing the mentioned members(GD) board participation and content upon a whim. **That aside, this is worded as some form of suggestion or perhaps a feeble attempt at critiquing my method(s). Thanks, but I dont need anything that you might offer. I'll get into the full why of it at the tail end of my response. Rational people disagree on things all the time, and "justify" their position to one another. Its no longer rational when it requires an apology because of personal attacks or judgements on the user behind the name. That would include personal criticisms that judge who & or what they are as a person, or the level of intelligence they posses. ..It's called having a discussion, or even a debate--it's part of interaction.. Discuss: 1)To speak together about. 2)To examine(a subject)in speech or writing. Debate: 1)To deliberate; consider. 2)To discuss opposing points 3)To discuss or argue formally. Neither of the above match up w/the issue I have mentioned. Save perhaps the word agrue included above. Which has been labeled a non-desirable addition to the boards by WizO's & Reps. It's why these boards have threads, rather than journal-like posting options that everyone can read but none can answer to. Talk what you know, not what you think. Especially when attempting to criticize another member using an argument based on the boards purpose. You arent the authority on this board or its purpose. As such your speculations on this boards purpose, options and desired method of use mean nothing when attempting to use it as ammunition for a point. **Lastly. You yourself become the victim of your own argument through posting a response that comments negatively, critiques or addresses my methods and/or comments. I have voiced an issue of concern w/another members habits, and in your "attempts" to point out my failing...you yourself fail by use of the very same method. So, yes I agree w/one word used within your previous response: Ironic. Its very Ironic that you use the very same methods you criticize. [edit] |
| GothicDan07-29-05, 08:52 PM | BPM, now you are trolling on Greco, as well. I believe that his record is cleaner than mine, so I don't think you should continue being quite so cocky. |
| Alac Luin07-29-05, 09:07 PM | Being a male of only 5'2 tall and weighing in at 87 pounds, I'm totally offended that WotC, and it's predecessor TSR has continued to portray the barbarian cultures of the north as all standing at least 6 foot tall and well muscled. This isn't limited to the barbarians, all Illuskans are said to be on the tall side, and that they value physical power. This shows no diversity among men, all men aren't tall and physically fit. :rolleyes: |
| GothicDan07-29-05, 09:15 PM | Teehee. |
| BrianCritchley07-29-05, 09:23 PM | Being a male of only 5'2 tall and weighing in at 87 pounds, I'm totally offended that WotC, and it's predecessor TSR has continued to portray the barbarian cultures of the north as all standing at least 6 foot tall and well muscled. This isn't limited to the barbarians, all Illuskans are said to be on the tall side, and that they value physical power. This shows no diversity among men, all men aren't tall and physically fit. :rolleyes: well.. you've got mirt.. |
| Mr. Wilson07-30-05, 03:12 AM | Yeah, but I'm pretty sure Mirt is getting rather....rotund. Its no longer rational when it requires an apology because of personal attacks or judgements on the user behind the name. That would include personal criticisms that judge who & or what they are as a person, or the level of intelligence they posses. And BPM everyone's a hyprocrite. Everyone. For example, in your case, it's by trolling posters while at the same time slamming them for trolling. An impressive double standard seeing as your points have nothing to do with anything in this thread other than your own view of the world. But then again, neither does this post, but whatcha gonna do? Call me a hypocrite. Ha. Beat ya to it. |
| WizO_Shadow07-30-05, 09:55 AM | Ok. Y'all know the drill. Play nice, type nice, speak nice and get back on topic or I'll lock it up. WizO_Shadow |
| ElGrecoETAC07-30-05, 10:30 AM | Yes, because in reading over this thread I found yet another point in which Danny found himself involved within a conflict that required an apology, the initiation of an agreement to agree to disagree(often times due to the "debate" reaching a point of personal attack or judgement), or a flat out overly opinionated argument that includes a personal judgement or two. ... I made reference to a source. Any board member reading this is capable of examing the mentioned members(GD) board participation and content upon a whim. What source? Here's the record for this thread. Dan had about 24 posts on this thread. He exchanged a single sarcastic remark with Skiriki and vice versa, neither of whom went on to argue, get in a heated discussion, etc. The worst that I saw him post was this: It's always amusing when people willingly set themselves up within/under certain establishments (governments, campaign settings, etc.) just to scream for a change of the way that things have been before said person even came about. What did you see in this thread that would qualify as a personal attack or judgement? **That aside, this is worded as some form of suggestion or perhaps a feeble attempt at critiquing my method(s). Oh, please. Sticks and stones. It's now considered a critique to ask that someone cites facts and/or evidence? I asked you to do so because I genuinely wondered where you saw Dan doing the things you are saying he did. If you make a statement or accusation, the onus is on you to back it up. Otherwise it becomes nothing more than petty libel. Its no longer rational when it requires an apology because of personal attacks or judgements on the user behind the name. That would include personal criticisms that judge who & or what they are as a person, or the level of intelligence they posses.[/QUOTES] I'm pretty sure that Skiriki would have made it rather clear by now if she felt she was being attacked or otherwise treated unfairly in this thread. That having been said, I really want to see what you consider to be evidence of Dan's "personal attacks or judgements" in this thread. [QUOTE]Discuss: 1)To speak together about. 2)To examine(a subject)in speech or writing. Debate: 1)To deliberate; consider. 2)To discuss opposing points 3)To discuss or argue formally. Neither of the above match up w/the issue I have mentioned. Then why is it that virtually everyone on this thread has been able to discuss, debate, or argue the issue save you? You bring up a lot of accusations, but this thread has been rather civil thus far. Talk what you know, not what you think. Especially when attempting to criticize another member using an argument based on the boards purpose. I think I've argued my points politely and logically. I certainly haven't had anyone who I discussed things with on this thread accuse my of rudeness or criticism. Unless you are referring to yourself, of course. You arent the authority on this board or its purpose. As such your speculations on this boards purpose, options and desired method of use mean nothing when attempting to use it as ammunition for a point. Whatever floats your boat, BPM. You're right--I'm just filling a hot air baloon up with conjecture when I wildly imply that a community board is about sharing of opinions, discussion, debate, etc. **Lastly. You yourself become the victim of your own argument through posting a response that comments negatively, critiques or addresses my methods and/or comments. BPM, I commented negatively your being DISHONEST in this thread. I commented negatively on that post and this because you implied and stated things that weren't TRUE. The onus is on you to show where Dan used insults, attacks, or what have you in this thread. You haven't done that. You've simply leveled an unfounded accusation and I called you out on it. |
| ElGrecoETAC07-30-05, 10:36 AM | Sorry Shadow. I just noticed your last post. |
| GothicDan07-30-05, 12:10 PM | Thanks again, Greco. I'll admit, at times, I can be a bit sarcastic, but I'm usually (I'd say 90% of the time) not the one that throws the personal stick. I throw it back, sure, and perhaps that's a fault of mine. I was never one of the kinds to agree in high school with the rule that, "If you get hit in some way in a fight, you automatically get a detention whether or not you fight back." I am always of the sort to hit back, anyway. Call me reactionary, if you wish. Call me hypocritical. I really don't care, because this board is around for nothing other than entertainment for me, and for discussion. Now, I will retire from this thread until someone who actually wishes to add something to this discussion, or otherwise continue it, posts. :) |
| BrianCritchley07-30-05, 02:19 PM | ya know.. I for one find dicussing forgotten realms much more intresting then witnessing little spats on these message boards, let's get back on topic folks. I think part of the reason why we see so many beutiful women as compared to men who yes do tend to have more variaty, is in part the way men's imaginations are wired. men tend to think up intresting people but for us "intresting woman" is one who well.. is nice looking. whereas with guys we're less focused on looks. |
| ElGrecoETAC07-30-05, 02:39 PM | I see where you're coming from, but I still think that it's a bit of a generalization. You can never pin down theories like that, because different people think differently. Rather, you'd be best served by examining at the subject matter objectively (I'm not implying that you're not; the "you" is neutral here), and looking at what context it's written in. In this case, the women mentioned were predominately members of the entertainment business or noble heiresses. You could argue that they were written up as good-looking due to how men are wired, but I think it's more accurate to say that the women on that list are either able to afford to look good (and would likely want to, based on their position in society) or have a financial incentive to look good (courtesans, dancers, etc.). Were a gaming product to focus predominately on members of the peasant/menial worker classes and still describe them all as being sparklingly beautiful, etc., then, yes, there would be an obvious bias. |
| Alac Luin07-30-05, 07:38 PM | I think part of the reason why we see so many beutiful women as compared to men who yes do tend to have more variaty, is in part the way men's imaginations are wired. men tend to think up intresting people but for us "intresting woman" is one who well.. is nice looking. whereas with guys we're less focused on looks. There is also the thing that the most of the writers of the waterdeep book are men. For the most part, men just don't think of other men as handsom or anything like that. Lets use Brad Pitt as an example, considered hadsom by a large persentage of women. To me, he looks like an average guy. I recognize him as "not ugly", sure, but what kind of description is that? You know, that not ugly bleach blond guy. Since I do not recognize him as handsome, how can I describe him as handsome? Telling me a male is handsome says very little to me, for I don't always recognize what handsome is. |
| Tiernee07-30-05, 07:52 PM | There is also the thing that the most of the writers of the waterdeep book are men. For the most part, men just don't think of other men as handsom or anything like that. Lets use Brad Pitt as an example, considered hadsom by a large persentage of women. To me, he looks like an average guy. I recognize him as "not ugly", sure, but what kind of description is that? You know, that not ugly bleach blond guy. Since I do not recognize him as handsome, how can I describe him as handsome? Telling me a male is handsome says very little to me, for I don't always recognize what handsome is. I think men in general avoid making statements about the appearances of other men unless it's something deragatory about their clothing or their weight, and even then it's a stretch. This is turning into more of a social commentary than anything else, and although I find it fascinating, I also don't see some great evil at WotC trying to hold back fat NPCs. Unless your DM makes a big deal about sex and relationships in your game, it's ultimately not going to matter anyway. Most exchanges are more like : Fighter: I pinch the serving wench (snort-giggle) Serving Wench walks away so we don't deviate from the plot Figher: She wants me. Where's the treasure map? (burp) |
| Alac Luin07-30-05, 08:00 PM | This is turning into more of a social commentary than anything else,... I can understand this statement, I will just say I meant what I said as a possible "logistical" reason why more men weren't call handsome by the authors of the Waterdeep source book. Fighter: I pinch the serving wench (snort-giggle) Serving Wench walks away so we don't deviate from the plot Figher: She wants me. Where's the treasure map? (burp) LOL |
| HVulpes07-30-05, 09:48 PM | It's interesting that on a commentary about looks, we have only a line of text to describe them. It is possible for a Helen of Troy to be repulsive to people. It's like in the 2ED option book where stats are broken down to two sub stats. Cha was broken to Physical beauty and Inner beauty. A Tiefling Lass might be drop dead sexy, but she has a taint in her inner beauty that cause a Cha drop. And lowering those attracted to her compared to a human with the same level of Physical beauty. Myrna Cassalanter has hints of beauty physically, But read Ms. Cunningham's novels to see her personality and most men wouldn't want to go near her in romance. At least not for love. |
| SalvarilduBluetrousers03-20-06, 07:23 PM | Charisma is not physical appearance. Comliness, which is a stat that I write down and make others in my campaign mark in case it is needed, is physical appearance. Charisma is charm and personality strength. They certainly help each other, but are not the same. Can you think of anyone gorgeous who can ruin the effect by opening their mouth? attractive, low charisma. A charming, persuasive, yet plain looking person? high charisma, middle comliness. Charisma can be related to appearance, but they are NOT the same thing. Last I checked, not all smart people wear glasses and not all wise people dress humbly. And I can think of a few people who are stronger or weaker than they look. |
| Auburn03-20-06, 09:08 PM | I can see why you have a beef with this. Only thing I'll say is that after skimming the first page I think one of the women you had in the beautiful category was described as having a large scar on her face from a knife wound. I doubt anyone involved in creating the book intended for that to be seen as a mark of phsyical beauty. |
| GothicDan03-21-06, 12:55 AM | Also, note that Comeliness was a 1E trait; in 2E and 3E, Charisma IS, partially, how attractive one's appearance is. |