| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Dark Wizard02-01-07, 11:15 PM | It appears WotC isn't going to completely shaft us this year by leaving us with just three mega-adventures in place of supplements. Instead they increased the supplements to four and offer at least one book of general interest. The catalog list announced Grand History of the Realms by Brian R. James for a November 2007 release. Link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/9780786947317 Here's what they have to say (for those of you too lazy to check): "The Grand History of the Realms chronicles the rich history of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, presenting a detailed timeline accompanied by essays from Elminster of Shadowdale and other Realmslore experts. Although not a game supplement, it serves as a handy reference guide for players and Dungeon Masters seeking information on specific historical events. In addition, the book features an exclusive Forgotten Realms short story by best-selling author R.A. Salvatore and new revelations for Realmslore aficionados." It's wonderful to see Brian James' work get official and proper acknowledgment. The timelines he compiled have helped immensely. I'm also interested in the essays by Realms characters and a Salvatore story is always nice. I'm greatly intrigued by the prospect of "revelations for Realmslore aficionados." This is perhaps the first teaser blurb that seems written specifically for fans of the Realms with the explicit aim to make us drool on our keyboards. An amusing thought, it almost feels like WotC had nothing for us this year except adventures and it took a Realms fan's hard work to bail them out. Yes, I felt this was important enough to warrant it's own thread. A swift arcane death to those who think otherwise. |
| Demetrios02-02-07, 12:21 AM | That looks very nice indeed, and I can't wait to see it in print. My favortie parts of some of the old 2e FR products (mainly Steve Schend's works) were the in-depth history sections, and this one is going to be all history. BTW, beyond the three mega-adventures you mentioned and this accessory, there's a fifth FR hardcover coming out this year - Expedition to Undermountain, out in June. It's a 224-page hardcover, which sounds like it should cover Undermountain in admirable detail, and be more accessory than adventure. It's at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/957327200 |
| Dark Wizard02-02-07, 01:58 AM | Yes, I noticed they're billing Expedition to Undermountain as an FR product rather than a regular/core D&D product like Expedition to Castle Ravenloft or Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. I guess with the overwhelming quantity and quality of Realms authorship talent on board for it, they couldn't help but label it a FR product. :D Still it's specifically noted as an adventure. The mega-adventure trilogy and the Grand History are classified as accessories, which I saw fans, including myself, were looking for; a non-adventure accessory sourcebook. |
| Jiggawha02-02-07, 03:25 AM | "The Grand History of the Realms chronicles the rich history of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, presenting a detailed timeline accompanied by essays from Elminster of Shadowdale and other Realmslore experts. Although not a game supplement, it serves as a handy reference guide for players and Dungeon Masters seeking information on specific historical events. In addition, the book features an exclusive Forgotten Realms short story by best-selling author R.A. Salvatore and new revelations for Realmslore aficionados." wtf |
| _SIN_02-02-07, 03:32 AM | At last I can sleep soundly! Although not overly perturbed at the thought of a year of adventures, this IS excellent news indeed! I can't wait to get my paws on 'Expedition to UM'. I am currently building it (the dungeon) using plaster moulds. It's tile by tile, brick by brick, but it'll look fantastic when complete. The only downside is that I can't have the ENTIRE thing on the table at once - using the old 2nd ed maps it would work out to be almost 23 x 12 feet!! I should have some pics up on criticalmiss.com shortly if you want a gander - you'll find it in the games thread under return to undermountain. I can also custom build 3D terrain if anyone's interested (Specifiaclly dungeons, but castles/forts/houses etc are not a problem) At the moment I can only supply them unpainted (due to time, or lack of!). All I need is a map on 5mm graph paper - 1sq = 5 ft. The terrain is scaled to 28mm (Floor tiles are 2.5cm x 2.5cm incase you want to 'size up' before... IF interested, pm me. |
| MarkusTay6302-02-07, 01:33 PM | I can also custom build 3D terrain if anyone's interested (Specifiaclly dungeons, but castles/forts/houses etc are not a problem) At the moment I can only supply them unpainted (due to time, or lack of!). All I need is a map on 5mm graph paper - 1sq = 5 ft. The terrain is scaled to 28mm (Floor tiles are 2.5cm x 2.5cm incase you want to 'size up' before... IF interested, pm me.You should post your stuff over at CMON, (http://www.coolminiornot.com/) I'm a long-time member over there. Also, I have to assume that they will be adding more Realmslore, besides any adventures and the story. Otherwise, what would be the point for everyone who has downloaded it for free? :confused: |
| Old Sparky02-02-07, 03:00 PM | 4th quarter?? Damnit, I want that NEXT quarter!! To hell with the mega-adventure stuff!! :fight!: |
| The ShapeLess One02-02-07, 04:28 PM | I hope this book will be great. Thank god we are not stuck with a year of adventures. WoTC can have my money again. |
| JaiaDrottsingr02-02-07, 05:43 PM | um... YEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Fabius Maximus02-02-07, 06:30 PM | Hey, don't wet yourself. Nice ideas indeed, but I'm more enthusiastic about The Forge of War and Dragons of Eberron. ;) |
| Old Sparky02-02-07, 06:43 PM | I find Eberron useless and won't touch any product associated with it. I'm in agreement with Shapeless One, concerning my own money, of course... however, I shall withhold my money from them until this book is released. Another year of nothing new for me. |
| JaiaDrottsingr02-02-07, 06:56 PM | I find Eberron useless and won't touch any product associated with it. I'm in agreement with Shapeless One, concerning my own money, of course... however, I shall withhold my money from them until this book is released. Another year of nothing new for me. QFT Whoah. I messed up the page! :w00t: Yay!!yaY :t00w: |
| Dark Wizard02-02-07, 06:58 PM | um... YEHS! Gah, you just horribly destroyed the aesthetics of this thread. I implore, nay, I demand that you edit your post to something approaching sane. :P Nice ideas indeed, but I'm more enthusiastic about The Forge of War and Dragons of Eberron. I'm interested in Secrets of Sarlona myself, but come now, did you have to ruin our moment by rubbing in the fact that Eberron gets three full lore-based traditional-style accessories and not a number of mega-adventures. :mad: |
| Markustay02-02-07, 07:05 PM | They are only trying to get everyone familiar with their new product line to support their gawd-awful MORPG. Once that goes bust (I give it another year) maybe they will realize they should of stuck with FR. They did the same thing when FR came out to Greyhawk, ignored and put it on the back-burner, hoping many fans would make the leap to the 'new' setting. Except that time, they used novels instead of a MORPG to get a new audience. I'm just hoping it doesn't work and FR suffers the same fate as GH. :( Either way, if there is enough new material I may buy this. If its justa re-hash of the Free edition then NO. FIX THIS THREAD! |
| Lord Karsus02-02-07, 07:10 PM | -I said this before, and I'll say it again: I am soo printing my PDF, and selling it as an "Advance Copy"...:plotting: -I don't think I'll be buying this, though. I'm happy for Brian, though, definitley. |
| Gray Richardson02-02-07, 10:09 PM | If you love the Realms you have to buy A Grand History of the Realms. Everyone should buy a copy. Everyone should get their friends to buy a copy. Everyone should buy many for all your loved ones at Christmas. The first Realms lore book in a year has to sell well, or they will stop making them. This book really needs to sell better than the adventures. When you buy Realms books you are voting with your wallets. You are telling WotC what they should publish and what they should not publish. Look at this year as an experiment on WotC's part. They are trying new things. Many posters have said they don't like the idea of adventure books, but if the adventure books sell better than the lore books, then that is what will get published. A history of the Realms is about the most "lorey" lore book possible. I would hope that you fans would want to see more of that kind of thing. I for one am super excited to see it happen. I plan on buying at least 3, maybe 6 for christmas presents. Even if you are not completely sold on the book, please don't say you don't intend to buy it. Don't hurt the positive buzz about this book. Say at least you will keep an open mind. At least don't dis the book to fans who might consider buying it. I hope everyone gets really jazzed about this book because 1) it will be totally AWESOME! 2) if it sells well WotC will continue to make great Realms sourcebooks |
| Lord Karsus02-02-07, 10:19 PM | Even if you are not completely sold on the book, please don't say you don't intend to buy it. Don't hurt the positive buzz about this book. Say at least you will keep an open mind. At least don't dis the book to fans who might consider buying it. -Oh, don't get me wrong. You know, Gray, that I appreciate lore as much as the next guy, if not more so. I, however, am extremely cheap, and it is going to take a lot more than a few new feats, a couple of new spells, a PrC or two, and a short story by Salvatore to get me to hand over $30 for a copy of something that I (more or less) already have. -I do agree with you that we should support the book as much as possible. AGCotR is probably the best sourcebooks (official or not) out there. And, the fact that Brian is now going from "unofficial" to "official" is awesome. That should be a lesson to all of us bums- If we work hard and persevere, we'll eventually be recognized and rewarded for all of that hard work! |
| Faraer02-02-07, 10:33 PM | Let me join the cheerleading, and congratulate Wizards on the concept of this book. A professionally laid-out and printed version of the Grand History, with updates and expansions over the latest online version, plus the essays which, to quote Brian, 'will afford Ed and others the opportunity greater flesh out pieces of Toril's history in greater detail', more than deserves the purchase of anyone who cares about the Realms. And Gray is certainly right that this book's sales will influence the future direction of the Realms RPG line, for better or worse. |
| JaiaDrottsingr02-02-07, 10:33 PM | <SNIP> I know I've seen you before. Hmmmmm. Were you in the RRPG "Post about the person who posted last thread" game around the time of Darth Divinitus? |
| Dark Wizard02-02-07, 10:36 PM | -Oh, don't get me wrong. You know, Gray, that I appreciate lore as much as the next guy, if not more so. I, however, am extremely cheap, and it is going to take a lot more than a few new feats, a couple of new spells, a PrC or two, and a short story by Salvatore to get me to hand over $30 for a copy of something that I (more or less) already have. Brian James gave some hints on what's to come over at Candlekeep (hopefully he's doesn't mind me quoting him, he's a Realms author now, so these things happen, lol): When WotC says its "not a game supplement", I presume they imply the Grand History will not include game mechanics like prestige classes, spells, and the like. This book is solidly in the 'fluff' category. Though the published Grand History will indeed contain the familiar timeline, the accompanying essays will afford Ed and others the opportunity greater flesh out pieces of Toril's history in greater detail. WotC is loosly marketing this more as a coffee table book than a reference guide. This product focuses strictly on the history of the Forgotten Realms. I am unsure if sub-setting events from Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc.. will make it into the final product, though I did include them in the manuscript. It seems there will be no crunch in this one, all fluff. There will also be new stuff from Ed and others, which I think is the main reason to purchase the book. The Salvatore story is likely to widen the appeal of this product, since there's nothing on the crunch side, something I can personally forgive. I'm sure WotC will package enough new stuff with the pre-existing timeline to make it enticing for even those who have the timeline. To an extent, we should support the book just for the format alone, which truly is revolutionary for FR 3e, hearkening back to 2e products like the Volo Guides and numerous others. With good sales, it could open the product line to more fluff heavy books. |
| Old Sage02-02-07, 10:51 PM | Both Gray and Faraer have said pretty much what I was intending to say here. So, I'll simply reinforce their earlier comments and state that ALL dedicated Realms fans should do their very best to purchase this remarkable resource once it has been released. We're unlikely to see another source of this kind for many, many years to come. And to deliberately choose to miss out on this unique opportunity -- for both quality Realmslore that not only expands on what few historical tidbits may have been scattered throughout FR products in the past, but to have them all conveniently compiled into the one resource -- is something many Realms fans, I believe, will come to regret in the years ahead. |
| MarkusTay6302-03-07, 01:03 AM | To an extent, we should support the book just for the format alone, which truly is revolutionary for FR 3e, hearkening back to 2e products like the Volo Guides and numerous others. With good sales, it could open the product line to more fluff heavy books.For the sole reason that it has NO feats or PrCs I will buy five! (Maybe I'll even mail one to that cheap bastitch Lord karsus) ;) |
| MarkusTay6302-03-07, 01:11 AM | Sorry, accidental DP, please Delete. |
| Old Sparky02-03-07, 01:37 AM | The first Realms lore book in a year has to sell well, or they will stop making them. This book really needs to sell better than the adventures. When you buy Realms books you are voting with your wallets. You are telling WotC what they should publish and what they should not publish. Look at this year as an experiment on WotC's part. They are trying new things. Many posters have said they don't like the idea of adventure books, but if the adventure books sell better than the lore books, then that is what will get published. This isn't an experiment, this is WotC stacking the deck against the lore book... 3 mega adventures and nothing more all year until the end of the year. THEN there's the lore book. Yeah, people are gonna buy the adventure stuff because they want new stuff. But come next Christmas, after buying the 3 mega adventures and who knows what else between now and then, too many people may decide they can do without buying the lorebook at that time. If this is an experiment, its a controlled one intended to garner a specific result. But hey, I'm sure I won't be the only one not buying into the junk (and I do use the word loosely since I have no idea as to the actual quality of the material) they peddling this year. When they're ready to give me what I want, then they can have my money. The mega adventure books can burn for all I care. To be fair, one such book I could accept. Three?? Hell no! :rant: |
| MarkusTay6302-03-07, 10:13 AM | The fact that its coming out just before Christmas, and it falls into that cool-but-not-useful* category that people LOVE to buy as gifts, this just might be a winner for WotC after all. *Before you get your panties in a bunch, I do not mean anything bad by this. Some of my favorite gifts were in this category. Many gamers will look at that book, and say "Cool, but nothing I can really use in a game, but it sure is COOL though...". Something you want but don't neccessarily need and most likely won't purchase for yourself is the definition of the 'perfect gift'. ;) |
| Gray Richardson02-03-07, 10:17 AM | Well, to be fair, the adventure books look to be quite nice as well. There will be much lore in them as well, and should be must buys for anyone who is running a campaign in Cormyr or Shadowdale or is just interested in those areas. Some people got upset because Mysteries of the Moonsea was an adventure book but was marketed confusingly as if it were a lore book. Many were disappointed that it was not a sourcebook, however, there was still a lot of fine lore in there. Now WotC is marketing the Cormyr and Shadowdale books properly as adventures. Which is good, because people will know what they are buying and will not be disappointed. However, I expect there will be lots of nice little lore tidbits in the books even so. True Realms fans may be very surprised at some of the good stuff inside. Rich Baker and Eric Boyd are gifted designers and truly devoted stewards of Realmslore. They have never disappointed me yet, and they are sure to write adventures that are worth the cover price. My current campaign is set in Suzail, so the Cormyr book is a must buy for me. I'm going to pick up the Shadowdale book too. I mean, come on, Eric Boyd is one of the authors, which guarantees that there will be wonders aplenty inside. |
| JaiaDrottsingr02-03-07, 10:57 AM | I hate adventure books. I will flip through them to see if there is any lore but rarely buy them. The Underdark module completely disapointed me and made me lose faith in WotC for a looooong time, during which I posted only in the Rec Room and established a reputation there. However, there are several Adventure Modules that were wonderful outputs, and gave away the impression that Realmsmen like adventures. I wish that WotC would see that Core books with lore, like the FRCS, RoF, and others sell better than the obligatory adventures that are oh, so popular in Ebberon. I miss Realmslore. Faerūn is about history, not history in dates, but history in facts. It is a true world. Lore helps establish exsistance and purpose in the Realms, and there are many people living peacefully among us Heroes. There is no need for pulp action or common adventures. This is an actual place, an entire plane of exsistance for our minds to take up root in. The Realms shall truly be Forgotten if we allow them to have the Action Takeover of Ebberon, where everyone is taking up arms against an unknown foe called sanity. I miss Realmslore. Just give us some core books by Ed. He invented it, he can fix it. We don't need Ebberon. I miss Realmslore. |
| MarkusTay6302-03-07, 01:26 PM | I miss Realmslore. Just give us some core books by Ed. He invented it, he can fix it. We don't need Ebberon. I miss Realmslore.LOL, haven't you heard? He bailed! :( He's got his OWN setting now called Castlemourn (http://paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/5/wa/browse?path=store/byCompany/m/margaretWeisProductions/castlemourn&wosid=XELKKligrEQ6eRE6ViVubw). Seems to me if a person is busy designing a new world, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time for the old one. And check out who the publisher is, Margeret Weiss! Now what was that old quote concerning "fleeing a sinking ship..." ;) "Eberron sucks and FR rules"... I remember saying something VERY similar 17 years ago when FR came around. Face it kiddies, it's here to stay; it appeals to the younger generation's Uber-character, Monty-haul style, min-maxing power-player mindset. Never would have had a Pun-Pun back in the ol' greyhawk days. :rolleyes: |
| JaiaDrottsingr02-03-07, 01:37 PM | LOL, haven't you heard? He bailed! :( He's got his OWN setting now called Castlemourn (http://paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/5/wa/browse?path=store/byCompany/m/margaretWeisProductions/castlemourn&wosid=XELKKligrEQ6eRE6ViVubw). Seems to me if a person is busy designing a new world, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time for the old one. Exactly. That sucks, which is the point. |
| Demetrios02-03-07, 02:20 PM | This isn't an experiment, this is WotC stacking the deck against the lore book... 3 mega adventures and nothing more all year until the end of the year. Did you even read my earlier post? We get a big book on Undermountain right in the middle of the year. And while it'll be essentially a big dungeon, with the writers listed (Greenwood, Boyd, etc.), it's undoubtedly going to have a good amount of lore in it |
| Faraer02-03-07, 04:57 PM | Many gamers will look at that book, and say "Cool, but nothing I can really use in a game, but it sure is COOL though...". Something you want but don't neccessarily need and most likely won't purchase for yourself is the definition of the 'perfect gift'. ;)A Realms DM needs a reasonably detailed history of the Realms far more than another set of rules toys -- this is the essential bedrock lore upon which that other stuff rests. What could be more useful for a campaign than that?LOL, haven't you heard? He bailed! :( He's got his OWN setting now called Castlemourn (http://paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/5/wa/browse?path=store/byCompany/m/margaretWeisProductions/castlemourn&wosid=XELKKligrEQ6eRE6ViVubw). Seems to me if a person is busy designing a new world, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time for the old one.Ed has created several worlds, so this is nothing unusual. The design work he did on the much-delayed Castlemourn was about three years ago, and there's no sign he's lost any of his love or commitment to the Realms. |
| MarkusTay6302-03-07, 07:01 PM | Did you even read my earlier post? We get a big book on Undermountain right in the middle of the year. And while it'll be essentially a big dungeon, with the writers listed (Greenwood, Boyd, etc.), it's undoubtedly going to have a good amount of lore in itI have never used any of the stuff from the last three Undermountain products I bought, nor Skullport, so I will not be buying this until I use those (which probably means never). I can make up my own dungeons thank you very much. A Realms DM needs a reasonably detailed history of the Realms far more than another set of rules toys -- this is the essential bedrock lore upon which that other stuff rests. What could be more useful for a campaign than that?I agree with you, but since a large chunk of the players these days are kids looking for the latest and greatest PrC/Feat combo this won't go over big with them. This doesn't have much appeal to the group that gets together every week and just goes adventuring (cracks open a module) without any background material, which I see quite often at my LGS. I personally prefer this kind of fluff-only book, but a lot of people take crunch over fluff. That is why I said this was the perfect gift idea - every munchkin will want it, but they will opt for crunchier stuff with their dollars. So EVERYONE buy at least one of these to give out to your friends. I like the coffee table book idea - make it over-size full of really cool pics and about 350 pages of fluff, and charge $50 bucks for this 'collectible' (deluxe edition maybe?). I have a Times Atlas of World History like this, and everyone who thumbs through the pages is like "Ohhhhhh..". All those maps with arrows showing human migration patterns, empire borders from various time periods, and barbarian-group raiding movements. It's like... MAGICAL. :D I'm a freak for maps. :P |
| Fabius Maximus02-03-07, 07:23 PM | Face it kiddies, it's here to stay; it appeals to the younger generation's Uber-character, Monty-haul style, min-maxing power-player mindset. :rofl: |
| Old Sage02-03-07, 07:46 PM | LOL, haven't you heard? He bailed! :( He's got his OWN setting now called Castlemourn (http://paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/5/wa/browse?path=store/byCompany/m/margaretWeisProductions/castlemourn&wosid=XELKKligrEQ6eRE6ViVubw). Seems to me if a person is busy designing a new world, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time for the old one.That is simply NOT true. A thorough reading of Ed's comments at Candlekeep, those specifically relating to CASTLEMOURN, will clearly indicate that Ed had been working on the design of the new world for over three years. And in that time, he's written several FR 3e game products, published a wide selection of novels for FR and several independents, submitted FR material to DRAGON, and continued to contribute to most of the FR web features here at WotC. He's also been continually contributing Realmslore to Candlekeep since February 2004, and also while working on CASTLEMOURN. Ed hasn't bailed on the Realms. His committment to FR is as strong as it has ever been. And considering that Ed has also created his share of alternate worlds... adding a new setting to the mix, while also working with the Realms, shouldn't be that surprising. |
| BrianCritchley02-03-07, 10:25 PM | wtf what? this book is intended to be placed beside novels and even if not it's not the first time a gaming sourcebook has included a short story in the front of it. fanpro has been putting short stories in the beginning of their battletech products for years, and the fans love it. heck if the Next FRCS had a good several page short story in the front I'd love it |
| Dark Wizard02-03-07, 11:13 PM | I wouldn't worry about WotC dropping FR for Eberron. FR is very well established with a good RPG sales record and beyond that multiple bestselling novels and video games. It's just too valuable to drop. Even if it were dropped, it's perhaps the one setting that can survive on it's own, no doubt Ed and other authors will continue to discuss the Realms for years to come just for love of the setting. What's with the Eberron bashing anyway. The sort of statements being toss out around here are exactly the type that disuaded me from looking into Eberron when those fans kept tossing around untrue generalizations about the Realms. I eventually decided to check out the setting material when more rational minds explained what was good about Eberron rather than what was wrong with the Realms. It would be unfortunate for a newcomer to come here and get a poor impression. Ultimately, the most important thing to this discussion and the Realms is what happens in the Realms itself. The problem isn't limited to any other setting, the Realms product line can be it's own worst enemy. I won't begrudge FR adventures to those who want them, but I don't want adventures to replace ALL of the regular sourcebooks, which until WotC's announcement about Grand History of the Realms it definitely seemed like the adventure trilogy was all we were going to get for the Realms this year (Undermountain previously hinted as being core D&D, and again an adventure). I'm just glad to see some sort of balance between adventures and background/regional books (though I still feel there could be more, an even 50/50 split perhaps, with the sourcebooks and adventures building off similar topics for added impact). At least to me, it seems Ed's involvement and influence in the Realms is greater now than it has been for much of the Realm's published life. Most of the designers and authors are taking notes and cues from him, trying their best to be respectful to the feel Ed established for the Realms. On top of that, Ed is publishing an impressive volume of material, from sourcebooks to novels to web articles. Ed himself, by way of THO, said he has a bit more decision on what web articles he writes. |
| ClobberinTime02-05-07, 03:13 PM | I don't think there is any reason to think about things in an Eberron vs. FR way, there is room for both and probably 6 or 7 more worlds besides. In terms of this new source book, I guess I am pretty easy, I will probably buy all three new modules and am excited about them, and I think you guys are crazy to not be, I mean who wouldn't want to have their PCs try and save Shadowdale, If they do this right it will be like a novel only with your pcs as the protagonists. Plus, I am pretty sure Rich is in charge of this which means: 1, it will have technical savvy, i.e. by this I mean that like the NPCs in power of faerun, the bad guys won't be total pushovers whose feats and combat tactics look like they were generated randomly. Some of the statted NPCs should have a -2 cr incompetent design penalty. 2, He really knows his realmslore, so it will also be respectfull of the history of the setting, and fit in in an intuitive way that isn't all round peg in a square hole. Grand history will depend on how much new stuff is in there, if its just rehashed things from Ed's online musings, well then what is the point? If there is alot of new realmslore I don't already have then I will buy it. |
| MarkusTay6302-05-07, 03:23 PM | That is simply NOT true.I'm sorry if you found that offensive, and I knew you'd reply. ;) I'm not saying he has TOTALLY given up on FR, quite the contrary. He simply isn't putting all his eggs in one basket, which is a very smart, business-like direction to take. It is the fact that he feels the need to have another basket that piques my curiousity, thats all. Perhaps his 'creative juices' have gone into overdrive, and thats all it is. I put it that way (He bailed) to generate a specific response. :P We are all part of the recipe: Some people like to be the ingredients, while others of us prefer to 'stir the pot'. :D |
| Faraer02-05-07, 04:13 PM | You agreed not to troll or bait when you signed up to these forums. Please don't -- it's a burden on effective discussion. If you know that Ed didn't bail, don't say that he did so that I or Old Sage or someone waste our time clarifying the situation for those that don't know better. |
| Renegade_Paladin02-05-07, 06:29 PM | Pssst. (http://www.geonomicon.com/portal/) ;) |
| johnkretzer02-05-07, 06:41 PM | First : So how much do you think there going to change? Second: The amount of stuff Ed Greenwood has written for the FR mean they could published lots of things and give him author credit for the past three years + probably another ten without Ed ever touching a typewriter. So the fact he has started another campaign world is....interesting. I do look forward to this. |
| johnkretzer02-05-07, 06:43 PM | Sorry Double post |
| Ranger REG02-06-07, 01:03 AM | Meh. I'm still waiting for WotC to reprint Races of Faerun (currently out-of-print). :bored: |
| BrianCritchley02-06-07, 02:32 AM | So how much do you think there going to change? depends most gaming worlds tend to develop inconsistancies that of course will have to be ironed out, still I doubt anything will be changed so much as new little details and twists added. |
| Uinidal02-06-07, 04:21 AM | sory to invade your conversation but i see that many people don't like adventures?Why's that?i on my behalf i like them especially the ones involving major(or minor) events of the realms.and also someone could still find lots of information on the 2nd edition books.but generally i think the dilema adventures or sourcebooks is wrong.I checked the 2nd edition and found out that there were about 75(!!!) sourcebooks and 40 adventures of the Realms while on 3ed there about 20 and just 5.there's a big difference i think.and i wouldn't mind if new books looked like the old ones,this would reduce the cost of printing and more of them could be published.Oh and something more:there are people that really love playing rpgs but we have limited time on our dispossal so believe me pre-made adventures are really usefull to us. |
| Renegade_Paladin02-06-07, 04:29 AM | There were 75 sourcebooks and 40 adventures for 2e because second edition was around for a lot longer than third has been thus far. Give it time. |
| Uinidal02-06-07, 04:44 AM | you're right partially.i mean 3ed is about 6 years old and 2nd about 15 if i'm correct.so in one case we have about 6 books per year and in the other about 4.and moreover there are already rumours about a 4th edition.finally there were also other settings such as dark sun that were actually abandoned. |
| Dark Wizard02-06-07, 11:22 AM | I don't think many here are against adventures in general so much as against adventures when they replace hardcover non-adventure sourcebooks on the product schedule. Most people wouldn't mind Mysteries of the Moonsea if it was not marketed as a regional sourcebook and if it did not displace the regional sourcebook slot. If WotC released a Moonsea regional book and a separate set of adventures based in the region, then most of us wouldn't complain, in fact we would probably praise WotC efforts to provide comprehensive and applicable material for the region. This dissatisfaction with the hybrid regional-adventure format of Mysteries of the Moonsea only increased with the announcement of a trilogy of mega-adventures, practically erasing any hope of a regular accessory for a whole year. Such adventures not only move back the publication of regional books by a year, but probably replaces the regional book of that adventure's setting for the foreseeable future. So the Mysteries of the Moonsea adventures seems to have taken up WotC's plan for a regional Moonsea book, who knows how long before the company gets to revisit that area. The Moonsea also happens to be one of the happening places in the Realms with an extensive series of changes and shifts in the balance of power over the last few years, coupled with the fact that it's a "badguy region" (read: good adventure site and DM playground) makes the loss of a regional book on that area all the more dissappointing. |
| MarkusTay6302-06-07, 11:46 AM | I rather enjoyed MoM, but I guess I'm in the minority here. I thought it had just the right balance - I mean, C'mon, they pretty much said everything that needed to be said about the region in the source parts, and then the adventures provided us with tidbits on individual locales. I would probably never use the adventures as written, because I like to customize everything, but they give me a great start-up point for my own material. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread - You agreed not to troll or bait when you signed up to these forums. Please don't -- it's a burden on effective discussion. If you know that Ed didn't bail, don't say that he did so that I or Old Sage or someone waste our time clarifying the situation for those that don't know better.I'm sorry. I don't 'troll' and I'm not even sure what is meant by 'baiting'. If it means to just 'throw something out there' to see peoples reactions, then YES, I suppose at least 90% of my posts are made for that reason. I like to get a measure of peoples reactions, and to get interesting discussions going. I was unaware that their was a policy in affect where one shouldn't expect others to react to their posts. Now I know. I just try to get people thinking about things. Also, it doesn't hurt to get people worried, if everyone thinks FR will be here forever regardless of weather they buy products they are sadly mistaken. So if I 'scare' at least one person into buying this EXCELLENT book, then I've done my job. ;) No one understands me. :allalone: |
| johnkretzer02-06-07, 03:19 PM | sory to invade your conversation but i see that many people don't like adventures?Why's that?i on my behalf i like them especially the ones involving major(or minor) events of the realms.and also someone could still find lots of information on the 2nd edition books.but generally i think the dilema adventures or sourcebooks is wrong.I checked the 2nd edition and found out that there were about 75(!!!) sourcebooks and 40 adventures of the Realms while on 3ed there about 20 and just 5.there's a big difference i think.and i wouldn't mind if new books looked like the old ones,this would reduce the cost of printing and more of them could be published.Oh and something more:there are people that really love playing rpgs but we have limited time on our dispossal so believe me pre-made adventures are really usefull to us. Running a module for me as a DM isn't fun. I just like running my own stuff. Also if I am running a campaign it is my world I decide what major events happen. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong I am just sharing my preferences. |
| Uinidal02-07-07, 03:17 AM | yes of course.in cases like that it's not a right or wrong think.it's only a game after all so everyone has its own preferences.i just think that WoC should publish enough material to have anyone running the game the way he wants.they earn money from that anyway,i don't expect them to do so for the sake of the game,but 2ed on my opinion proved that everyone can be happy:players who use their own material,players who use premade modules and of course the company who earns money.anyway i'd like to see some stuff tied to the big events mentioned in novels like the Avatar trilogy adventures did once. |
| Khaelieth02-07-07, 09:06 AM | I think WotC should make it a free, downloadable pdf. This way we don't need to buy all their novels to keep up with what's going on. Obviously, money will be an issue, but it would improve on the world by making it free, so we can keep ourselves up to date. Another plan could be to just release proper epic quests again, like I know they did in 2nd edition. This way your players can have an earth shattering impact, without it having to be that way in other campaigns. Making Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Shessair or Elminster do the quest in a novel would work against the principle, for then it becomes realmslore which will have consequences later on, and it would be daft. It's the PC's that are the heroes, not some poof with two scimitars. Other things to make things easier for us, would be to post an update every month and slow all the changes that are coming about. The dust hadn't even settled from Lolth's rebirth when Tiamat and Bahamut started their war up again. Not to talk about the return of Shade, the reclaiming of Myth Drannor, the siege of Everaska, Dracorage and Tchazzar's return. |
| MarkusTay6302-07-07, 10:54 PM | I think WotC should make it a free, downloadable pdf.Ummmm.. errrrr... Oh boy... :rolleye2: Nevermind, just buy the book, it's worth it! If you want to continue to see fluff-heavy products, then we had better ALL buy the book, else in coming years we'll see nought but modules. |
| GothicDan02-08-07, 03:48 PM | I'd rather be given loads of material and hooks on something, and then let me take the story in whatever direction I want. Being given premade adventures is in no way fulfilling for me. It would be like running your character through a novel - which can be fun (such as the Dragonlance modules), but only more for nostalgic purposes. And only once. You can read the material on the setting over and over. |
| MerrikCale02-08-07, 07:44 PM | I'd rather be given loads of material and hooks on something, and then let me take the story in whatever direction I want. Being given premade adventures is in no way fulfilling for me. It would be like running your character through a novel - which can be fun (such as the Dragonlance modules), but only more for nostalgic purposes. And only once. You can read the material on the setting over and over. But a good module can give you ideas from their hooks and encounters. I like to peruse them for ideas. Maybe a encounter here or an NPC there. And then take off with them. |
| BadCatMan02-08-07, 07:53 PM | The problem I find with many pre-made adventures is that although they might be a good story, they'll almost always be based around an environment, enemy faction, or party level that simply won't fit the DM's game. Adapting it could mean as much work as making an entirely new adventure will be. I'd like to see modular adventures, with a variety of options to adapt it to the DM's campaign. Like, this is what happens with Zhents as the bad guys, and heres what happens if you're using the Dragon Cult. Options for setting it in the Silver Marches or Calimshan or Unther or wherever. Level 4 or Level 14. And so on. |
| Khaelieth02-08-07, 08:17 PM | The problem I find with many pre-made adventures is that although they might be a good story, they'll almost always be based around an environment, enemy faction, or party level that simply won't fit the DM's game. Adapting it could mean as much work as making an entirely new adventure will be. I'd like to see modular adventures, with a variety of options to adapt it to the DM's campaign. Like, this is what happens with Zhents as the bad guys, and here's what happens if you're using the Dragon Cult. Options for setting it in the Silver Marches or Calimshan or Unther or wherever. Level 4 or Level 14. And so on. Well, that would be a lot of text. If the original quest is against the Zhents in the Silver Marches and designed for 4th level characters, and you want it to be against the Cult of the Dragon in Calimshan for 14th level characters, it's totally different quest. I remember playing through epic quests, stopping gods etc, those I found highly entertaining. I don't like those built for low level characters, for some reason. I will buy the book, though. I will need it to update everything. |
| BadCatMan02-08-07, 09:08 PM | Yeah, maybe not so many options then. :) Or something rather more generic: Zhentarim Intrigues in Local Dystopic City-State. Fill in the blanks! |
| Ranger REG02-09-07, 03:29 AM | "The Grand History of the Realms chronicles the rich history of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, presenting a detailed timeline accompanied by essays from Elminster of Shadowdale and other Realmslore experts. Although not a game supplement, it serves as a handy reference guide for players and Dungeon Masters seeking information on specific historical events. In addition, the book features an exclusive Forgotten Realms short story by best-selling author R.A. Salvatore and new revelations for Realmslore aficionados." By "grand," I hope it will cover all of Abeir-Toril, not just Faerun. |
| Khaelieth02-09-07, 07:43 AM | Aye, but I don't think much has happened in Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica, though perhaps the Helmites have continued their conquering of Maztica=D Though creating adventuring hooks is fun. Perhaps we could put a hook and adventure thread on the forums?=) |
| Kid SixXx02-09-07, 08:24 AM | I'm interested in Secrets of Sarlona myself, but come now, did you have to ruin our moment by rubbing in the fact that Eberron gets three full lore-based traditional-style accessories and not a number of mega-adventures. Hey, that Sarlona book comes out next Wednesday! Must make sure not to overdo it at the hockey & wings gathering at BW3 on Saturday. I may very well use that book next weekend, so may as well keep some security cash available. |
| Dark Wizard02-09-07, 10:37 AM | By "grand," I hope it will cover all of Abeir-Toril, not just Faerun. I recall Brian James said he submitted timeline entries for the other settings with his draft (just like how kara-Tur/Zakhara/Maztica entires are found in the GHotR .pdf). Whether or not they make it into the final book is unfortunately up to WotC and we know how the company feels about those additional settings. Hey, that Sarlona book comes out next Wednesday! Must make sure not to overdo it at the hockey & wings gathering at BW3 on Saturday. I may very well use that book next weekend, so may as well keep some security cash available. :D A mix of psionics, eastern inspirations, and exotic locales with a pseudo-Cthulhoid background. I might just like it more than Khorvaire. What I find crazy is that Sarlona (from what I can tell by the previews) is shaping up to be a vaguely Oriental continent with a series of heavy fantasy twists. Exactly what WotC refuses to support in FR. WotC works in mysterious ways, well maybe not that mysterious. |
| MerrikCale02-09-07, 10:53 AM | What I find crazy is that Sarlona (from what I can tell by the previews) is shaping up to be a vaguely Oriental continent with a series of heavy fantasy twists. Exactly what WotC refuses to support in FR. WotC works in mysterious ways, well maybe not that mysterious. would it be useful for a non-eberron user |
| MarkusTay6302-09-07, 02:13 PM | would it be useful for a non-eberron userSure, if you wanted to put a slightly different spin on KT, or use Sarlona as one of those 'other' mysterious continents, otherwise theres not a lot that can be directly applied to the Heartlands. I like the idea of adding some new flavor to the East though.... |
| Dark Wizard02-09-07, 06:29 PM | Due to the semi-isolated nature of Eberron's continents, Sarlona is probably almost as useful to non-Eberron gamers as it is to Eberron fans. It's seems very plug-and-play to me (with some modifications of course). I might just drop the continent into Toril next time my players want something exotic (read: psionic). Could probably even use it as a standalone setting. |
| Ranger REG02-10-07, 01:51 AM | Aye, but I don't think much has happened in Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica, though perhaps the Helmites have continued their conquering of Maztica=D I do find it hard that time stopped for the above regions while Faerun continues to have events after events (big and tiny). |
| entropysoda02-11-07, 01:41 PM | I will buy all 3 "mega" FR adventures, the history book, AND the UM book. Good publishing choices WoTC! 1st time I can remember being interested in buying this much FR stuff! Give us more like this stuff! |
| Khaelieth02-11-07, 07:41 PM | I do find it hard that time stopped for the above regions while Faerun continues to have events after events (big and tiny). I find it natural. Faerūn is the main campaign area, not Kara-Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. Though there's happened a fair few things in Maztica, it's made Helm unpopular ^^ |
| Renegade_Paladin02-11-07, 09:19 PM | You know, I never quite understood why it was the Helmites that went all Spanish on the Mazticans. One would think that the church of the deity of guardians wouldn't be overly interested in active conquest. |
| Ranger REG02-11-07, 09:45 PM | I find it natural. Faerūn is the main campaign area, not Kara-Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. Though there's happened a fair few things in Maztica, it's made Helm unpopular ^^ I disagree. There is always something happening. You think Faerun have stopped and wait while Yamun Khahan and the Horde were busy breaching the Dragonwall in Shou Lung? I hope that by "grand history" it means "world history." |
| Dark Wizard02-11-07, 09:49 PM | I find it natural. Faerūn is the main campaign area, not Kara-Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. Though there's happened a fair few things in Maztica, it's made Helm unpopular ^^ I think Ranger REG meant in the game world rather than in the real world. I think we all understand the real world reasons why time seemed to stop for the other continents, but there is no explanation for it in the game world. Unless the areas are so stable and secure that nothing happens, but even then, more mundane things just end up making the news instead. You know, I never quite understood why it was the Helmites that went all Spanish on the Mazticans. One would think that the church of the deity of guardians wouldn't be overly interested in active conquest. The main reason the setting is just ... meh. (Personal opinion.) |
| MarkusTay6302-12-07, 04:26 AM | I have at least three undermountain accessories, not counting Skullport. Never used ANY of them, don't need them, don't want them, don't want a new one. It's like going to McDonald's at 4PM; Its the same smelly cheesburger thats been sitting there since noon. :( |
| Tzu-Theory02-12-07, 11:41 AM | I'm the little brother of Brian. I am not here to feed BS or push anything, but I believe any FR fan will get a lot of value out of his new book. I have been following his obsession with FR since 1987 and can say that the manuscript he submitted was very detailed and contains a lot of useful information for the die-hard fans. What WoTC does with it I cannot say. But I think it will be a gem for all of us FR fans. |
| MerrikCale02-12-07, 11:43 AM | I'm looking forward to it. |
| MarkusTay6302-12-07, 02:53 PM | I'm looking forward to it.As am I. At last, we have an accord. ;) |
| Khaelieth02-12-07, 05:18 PM | I disagree. There is always something happening. You think Faerun have stopped and wait while Yamun Khahan and the Horde were busy breaching the Dragonwall in Shou Lung? I hope that by "grand history" it means "world history." Huh? "You think Faerun have stopped and wait"... The tense is weird, I don't get it. But Faerūn had loads of things happening at the time of the Horde. |
| Ranger REG02-12-07, 07:38 PM | Huh? "You think Faerun have stopped and wait"... The tense is weird, I don't get it. But Faerūn had loads of things happening at the time of the Horde. The same could be said of Kara-Tur during the Time of Trouble and the conquest of Maztica. :uh-huh: I'd like to know what happened over there when much of the focus is on Faerun. |
| MerrikCale02-12-07, 07:42 PM | As am I. At last, we have an accord. ;) when have we ever disagreed on anything |
| MarkusTay6302-13-07, 02:56 AM | I thought you were the disagreeable one. At least thats what LK's been spreading around. ;) |
| Kid SixXx02-13-07, 08:13 AM | would it be useful for a non-eberron user It would be if you like monks. Secrets of Sarlona has pretty much eliminated my need for 3rd party monk materiel by statting out a whole bunch of traditional kung fu weapons. |
| Khaelieth02-13-07, 08:27 AM | The same could be said of Kara-Tur during the Time of Trouble and the conquest of Maztica. :uh-huh: I'd like to know what happened over there when much of the focus is on Faerun. Again, I'd also wish for a bit of info on Maztica and Kara-Tur, but Faerūn is the main place. There's probably a lot that's happened in all places, but WotC focus on Faerūn for a reason, it is where most of the adventurers like to go. |
| MerrikCale02-13-07, 09:38 PM | I thought you were the disagreeable one. At least thats what LK's been spreading around. ;) I'd give him a peice of my mind, if he wasn't so all-powerful |
| Ranger REG02-13-07, 10:31 PM | Again, I'd also wish for a bit of info on Maztica and Kara-Tur, but Faerūn is the main place. There's probably a lot that's happened in all places, but WotC focus on Faerūn for a reason, it is where most of the adventurers like to go. Yeah, but I don't follow the "in-crowd." I'm too Mongoloid. :cool: |
| BrianCritchley02-14-07, 04:48 AM | I have at least three undermountain acceories, not counting Skullport. Never used ANY of them, don't need them, don't want them, don't want a new one. I suppose I can understand your feelings, on the other hand you also need to keep in mind that there are some of us who came in on 3E who have heard about undermountain but never had a chance to try it, you'll notice that WOTC is taking a lotta classic adventures and sort of re-doing them (this is actually a return to their module policy of the early days of 3e it seems, when they put out stuff like return to the temple of elemental evil) they've done a ravenloft adventure book, are doing a demonweb pits one etc, are doing under mountain. while for an old timer like yourself this is old hat and you wish they'd do something new, for those (like myself actually) who got their start with 3E the chance to finally get an idea as to what the older/more experianced gamers are talking about well... it's kinda an exciting idea |
| Khaelieth02-14-07, 11:52 AM | Yeah, but I don't follow the "in-crowd." I'm too Mongoloid. :cool: Then play the other more Asian or South American themed settings;p |
| Ranger REG02-15-07, 01:34 AM | Then play the other more Asian or South American themed settings;p I am. The Kara-Tur part of Forgotten Realms Abeir-Toril. *gives a wet :pbbbtt: like a Nor'easter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nor'easter)* |
| GothicDan02-15-07, 07:22 PM | *gives a wet like a nor'easter* I'm from New Jersey and I don't even know what that is... Poor Kara-Tur. So terrible. I'll make sure to make my vaguely-eastern-inspired region/s of my world.... better. |
| MarkusTay6302-15-07, 10:20 PM | Just buy the new Sarlona book and paste it in, they saved all their oriental goodness for Eberron. Why do we get half backed books like 3e OA that require a Dragon article to convert, and they get the REAL DEAL. :headexplo |
| Dark Wizard02-15-07, 11:16 PM | Just buy the new Sarlona book and paste it in, they saved all their oriental goodness for Eberron. Why do we get half backed books like 3e OA that require a Dragon article to convert, and they get the REAL DEAL. :headexplo My thoughts exactly. WotC goes on adamantly refusing to update Kara-Tur for years, then they put out a book on one of Eberron's secondary continent with a mild oriental theme. What exactly about Kara-Tur turns WotC's stomach so? It's not like the 3e OA even used Kara-Tur, so there are no current failures to consider (only poor sales from about 20 years ago, but hey even major franchises like Star Trek and Star Wars didn't rise to billion dollar properties immediately). On another note, the use of psionics for Sarlona is precisely the sort of idea I brought up at Candlekeep a month or so ago. Use alternate rules systems to help differentiate the other continents and make them fit the magic pervasiveness of Faerun, Khorvaire, or whatever (D&D prevalence in general). If WotC dislikes Kara-Tur's modeling on real Earth culture and history, then maybe it's time to change that. It's fine if the continents were never detailed or if the remote continent was across a vast ocean, but not alright for the ones connected by land. It's like living with a gangrene leg versus the problem never existing or someone else having the problem. Time to amputate. Otherwise treat the problem and let it grow again. |
| Dark Wizard02-15-07, 11:35 PM | Then play the other more Asian or South American themed settings;p I would, but WotC doesn't make those settings for D&D anymore. :P And to address the "Why don't you create your own setting, genius!" comments. I do, just like I work on my own standard fantasy settings with western themes ala Faerun. I simply have a desire to see the FR take on eastern themes, just as I like FR's take on western themes with Faerun. |
| MarkusTay6302-15-07, 11:47 PM | On another note, the use of psionics for Sarlona is precisely the sort of idea I brought up at Candlekeep a month or so ago. Use alternate rules systems to help differentiate the other continents and make them fit the magic pervasiveness of Faerun, Khorvaire, or whatever (D&D prevalence in general).That was you? :P You're right though, the reason why kara-Tur/Maztica/Zakhara/Hordelands all failed is because they were identical to RW and therefore BORING. If WotC dislikes Kara-Tur's modeling on real Earth culture and history, then maybe it's time to change that. It's fine if the continents were never detailed or if the remote continent was across a vast ocean, but not alright for the ones connected by land. It's like living with a gangrene leg versus the problem never existing or someone else having the problem. Time to amputate. Otherwise treat the problem and let it grow again.Its a shame really, because this could have been the only good thing to come out of the ToT. Think about it - none of those settings has been updated since then, so they have free-reign to go balls-to-the-wall willy-nilly original, and the perfect cosmic/RSE excuse for EVERYTHING that is changed. What a waste. :( |
| Dark Wizard02-16-07, 12:08 AM | That was you? :P I think so. Which me are you referring to? I saw other people having so much fun with clones I decided to give it a try (blast you Karsi!) except all of mine are telepathically linked, all think they're me, and each contains a piece of my true soul, diminishing the real me. I should pull a "One" and get myself back together again. Minions, I declare a crusade on ME. You're right though, the reason why kara-Tur/Maztica/Zakhara/Hordelands all failed is because they were identical to RW and therefore BORING. What's funny is that Kara-Tur is probably more historically accurate than wuxia or jidai-geki films from China and Japan, respectively. Fantasy you ask? Its a shame really, because this could have been the only good thing to come out of the ToT. Think about it - none of those settings has been updated since then, so they have free-reign to go balls-to-the-wall willy-nilly original, and the perfect cosmic/RSE excuse for EVERYTHING that is changed. What a waste. :( I would tolerate a ERSE* just to shake things up. Boy, would I love to get a real crack at it. I guess my own changes will only be limited to my head. My players won't touch the other settings with a Bigby's Hand. They have no problems with the Oriental parts of my setting or limited/modified amounts of L5R. * Eastern Realms Shaking Event (let's keep it local in this case), also insert own favored demi-setting. eRSE for the internet savvy. ERSE -> ERASE, hehe :plotting: |
| Ranger REG02-16-07, 02:51 AM | Its a shame really, because this could have been the only good thing to come out of the ToT. Think about it - none of those settings has been updated since then, so they have free-reign to go balls-to-the-wall willy-nilly original, and the perfect cosmic/RSE excuse for EVERYTHING that is changed. What a waste. :( Gee, you are right. We do not need many "handholding" products like Eberron fans need. Wow, I feel SO superior. :cool: |
| MarkusTay6302-16-07, 03:41 AM | Not sure if I'm understanding you Ranger, are you saying you are an Eberron player and want only Eberron to get new fluff books? (as is the case) :confused: The only thing I meant was that FR fans have been asking for this YEARS before Eberron was a dribble from... I mean a 'twinkle' in the designers eye. * Eastern Realms Shaking Event (let's keep it local in this case), also insert own favored demi-setting. eRSE for the internet savvy. ERSE -> ERASE, hehe :plotting:How about - *Eastern Realms Area Shaking Event = ERASE :D |
| Demetrios02-17-07, 12:48 AM | Hmm, and ERASE would be a good idea really, just to shake things up out east. Hopefully Tabot and Koryo (or at least their names) will be ERASEd at the very least... :P The main argument that has been made against publishing non-Faerun accessories for 3e is that they would appeal only to a niche audience and thus risk selling poorly. But surely the Grand History of the Realms (to bring this back to the original subject) will cover as at least as an esoteric subject, if not moreso. Maybe if the Sarlona book sells well, WotC will take a second look at pseudo-Eastern settings... |
| Dark Wizard02-17-07, 08:05 PM | Hmm, and ERASE would be a good idea really, just to shake things up out east. Hopefully Tabot and Koryo (or at least their names) will be ERASEd at the very least... :P The most glaring example probably is Koryo, they didn't even bother to spell it differently. The main argument that has been made against publishing non-Faerun accessories for 3e is that they would appeal only to a niche audience and thus risk selling poorly. But surely the Grand History of the Realms (to bring this back to the original subject) will cover as at least as an esoteric subject, if not moreso. Maybe if the Sarlona book sells well, WotC will take a second look at pseudo-Eastern settings... I have a feeling if that was the only problem, Kara-Tur would have an update already. Maybe someone(s) at WotC just dislikes Kara-Tur. |
| msatran02-17-07, 11:43 PM | Well, it looks like my players just got the "Wait until December" clause. You guys DO realize that the reason they're releasing this adventure series is because of this... What announcement did they make two years ago? AS OF 2008, NOVELS WILL NO LONGER EQUAL SOURCEBOOKS! That's why they have to give us a big adventure series now, to explain why novels no longer equal sourcebooks. They may (Gasp! Be freezing the year date again) The reason why they would release a "Grand History of the Realms" sourcebook is because they are so far ahead of Ed Greenwood, that they can't advance time anymore. That's my theory. Still, once per year, my players get a sourcebook, so this one gets the nod. I couldn't give them any modules...and I couldn't give them Undermountain! In fact, if I gave them undermountain, they would KILL me. My players WANT an undermountain game, where the PC's do nothing but go in and out of undermountain. Boring for the GM, virtually plotless, but you know...whatever they want... |
| msatran02-18-07, 12:00 AM | As for Kara Tur, I think that people don't believe that the market is there, and that's it. They consider it a niche market that people won't touch or aren't interested in. The other problem is that they're worried about racial issues and presentation of asian groups, especially with the way that Hu Jintao, currently ranked #4 on the list of World's Worst Dictators, treats the Chinese People. Remember, this is Hasbro, one of the most powerful companies in the world. It's not really Wizards of the Coast, you guys only think it is. D+D represents less than 1 percent of their profit margin. |
| Ranger REG02-18-07, 02:43 AM | Not sure if I'm understanding you Ranger, are you saying you are an Eberron player and want only Eberron to get new fluff books? (as is the case) :confused: How dare you call me an Eberron player?!?!!! :nonono: |
| Green Elven Vampire02-18-07, 02:49 AM | Personally looking forward to the Anauroch adventure about Empire of Shade or what not. Supposed to be a high level adventure against the Shadovar or some such. |
| Dark Wizard02-19-07, 03:41 PM | As for Kara Tur, I think that people don't believe that the market is there, and that's it. They consider it a niche market that people won't touch or aren't interested in. This is the most likely answer accounting for the lionshare of why a new product line won't happen. However, I think WotC is fine with sprinkling OA bits all over their books like in the Complete series or in Sarlona. Oddly, something along the lines of Sarlona is what I want for Kara-Tur, vaguely inspired by real world Asia but heavily muddled in the usual fantasy coverings. I know others disagree. The other problem is that they're worried about racial issues and presentation of asian groups, especially with the way that Hu Jintao, currently ranked #4 on the list of World's Worst Dictators, treats the Chinese People. I don't see how that would have a major effect, unless WotC is planning to break into China's market. If any problems of misrepresentation come up, the various watchdog groups and anti-defammation league people in the US will probably jump on it first. Aside from that, if the portrayal is a positive one then there shouldn't be a problem. I mean what Asian media/cinema puts out isn't terribly different from western media/cinema, especially in regards to the fantasy/period genres. On a side note, I believe Hu Jintao has dropped to #6 as of 2007. Remember, this is Hasbro, one of the most powerful companies in the world. It's not really Wizards of the Coast, you guys only think it is. D+D represents less than 1 percent of their profit margin. All the more reason Hasbro won't care as long as they make profit. |
| MarkusTay6302-19-07, 04:59 PM | How dare you call me an Eberron player?!?!!! :nonono:Sorry, my bad. I didn't get the sarcasm, hard to read people over the Net sometimes. :( On a side note, I believe Hu Jintao has dropped to #6 as of 2007. Only #6 now?! I have SO got to invite him over for Christmas... :rolleye2: ;) :rofl: |
| Dark Wizard02-20-07, 12:07 AM | Only #6 now?! I have SO got to invite him over for Christmas... :rolleye2: ;) :rofl: I feel the ranking is terribly flawed, sure most of the people belong on the list, but at that point, bad is bad, saying who is worst really doesn't do much to help the unfortunate people under the influence and power of these individuals. At the same time, while I'm not a big fan of China's internal policies that fit under the definition of totalitarianism, I find surprising, disappointing and frightening parallels in the system the US uses. It's a double-edged blade, just the side facing us is a bit duller because we technically have free elections. This has already moved into real world issues too much. This will be my last comment on this real world issue for this thread. |
| Kid SixXx02-20-07, 08:24 AM | Gee, you are right. We do not need many "handholding" products like Eberron fans need. *checks FR's laundry list (raw tonnage) of products from 2ed* I'd hope that you wouldn't have any further need for handholding products, since you've had them for nearly two decades now. :rolleyes: Given the outrage over the recent trend of mega-adventures being released for the FR instead of regional splatbooks, I'd say that the need for handholding projects lingers on to the present day. God forbid that you'd actually consider converting your 2ed to 3.5 via the rules in the DMG (Like most of the hardcore people play 3.5 anyway. Most likely they read their old 2ed splatbooks in private and dream dreamy dreams, or still play 2ed rules if they still bother to roll dice in a social setting.) |
| GothicDan02-20-07, 04:27 PM | Kid SixXx, REG is, for some reason, a Kara-Tur fanboy. Appealing to his logic by stating general FR publications won't get you very far. |
| Dark Wizard02-20-07, 07:41 PM | Perhaps he was being sarcastic? |
| Ranger REG02-20-07, 09:37 PM | To the Goth: As I said before, I'm too Mongoloid. No pale skin on me. :devil: |
| MarkusTay6302-21-07, 07:13 PM | Obviously a Horde fanboy, the oft-forgotten 5th setting on Abeir-Toril. ;) |
| msatran02-21-07, 07:26 PM | While this is off topic... No, sadly, Jintao is number 4. The General of Burma is #6. However, the General of Burma did have people arrested and imprisoned for the crime of "Hiding in the Dark." Really, he SHOULD be #4. That's pretty outrageous. |
| Dark Wizard02-21-07, 09:16 PM | What year is this ranking you're working from? My mistake from before, I was looking at the '06 list (not the '07 list as I said before), where he's #6. He was #4 in 2005. So did the 2007 list come out? Still this highlights my point, the list has less meaning than they make it out to be. Back to my main point regarding this. An update and potential publication of Kara-Tur has nothing to do with who the leader of China is (not like the guy is technically a run-of-the-mill banana republic dictator, some nations are run by oligarchies, they oppress by committee). I see places like Japan and South Korea as larger, immediately potential markets for D&D. Though with the real world parallels of Kara-Tur compared to their period films, anime, and video games, D&D's offerings probably won't stand a chance unless they make it more fantastical. Actually, WoW (MMOs in general) is popular in China and other Asian nations, so I don't think D&D/FR will matter a speck in the greater scheme of Western concepts and products entering those cultures. |
| Gray Richardson02-22-07, 02:50 AM | I'm with Dark Wizard. I would love to see a revamped Kara-Tur. Consider: 1) I think there is an untapped market for oriental fantasy. Look at the popularity of anime and martial arts movies. 2) Since WotC is no longer involved with the Rokugan setting, that leaves Kara-Tur as the obvious setting for WotC to develop for exploring asian-themed fantasy. 3) Kara-Tur is part of the Realms. This is established lore. It's there. It is not going away. It should not be ignored. It could be a vibrant part of the Realms with some good writing. 4) It is an area of the Realms that has not been revisited in a number of years and it is high time the designers went back. 5) The recent article in Dragon Magazine about the Hordelands was amazing stuff! Very well done! It gave me a thirst for more! 6) Some fans have complained (rightly so) that Kara-Tur is too much a pastiche of Asia, with even the names cribbed straight from Earth nations. But this could be fixed easily. You simply de-emphasize the elements copied from Earth culture and emphasize instead the original and Realmsian elements that are unique to the setting. 7) With a few wars, population migrations, famines, droughts, earthquakes, floods, giant monster attacks, and political upheaval, WotC could shake up the borders and make Kara-Tur lose some of its close resemblance to Earth's Asia. Have some nations collapse and other nations conquer new areas. Change up the names as rulers and dynasties fall. 8) Introduce some non-human elements, a dragon kingdom, an oni invasion, make eastern dwarves a powerful nation, or give the fey or kami spirits a puissant presence. 9) You could even have some displaced refugees from Faerunian wars or plagues flee to Kara-Tur to thrive. 10) What about trading and mercantile colonies? You could have Amnians, or Sembians setting up powerful trading colonies. Thayan enclaves may be springing up all over. Even the Zhentarim might find an interest in certain Kara-Tur cities or markets. 11) Maybe a Netherese city crashed or possibly even still floats above Kara-Tur. There could be Aearee colonies. Naga and Yuan-Ti empires could dominate the Kara-Tur underdark. 12) Some of the similarity between Kara-Tur cultures can be explained away by the fact that populations from Earth's asia migrated to Kara-Tur from Earth in the ancient past. This is mentioned in the PGtF. We have long known that Toril had close ties to Earth in the ancient past. Just as Mulhorandi and Untheric people came from Egypt and Mesopotamia respectively. Likewise the Shou probably came from Earth's China, the Kozakurans from Japan, the Kuong from India or Indochina, etc. The designers could embrace that notion to explain away some of the pastichiness, and then work to overcome the pastichiness. Use it as a jumping off point to differentiate Kara-Tur from Asia, just as the designers have integrated Mulhorand, Unther and Chessenta better into the Realms with some creative writing. 13) Faerun is a setting for Western European style medieval fantasy--but it is not a pastiche of medieval Europe. Kara-Tur could likewise be rehabilitated as the ideal setting for oriental-themed fantasy, without being a pastiche of Asia. 14) Rehabilitating Kara-Tur would just help make the Realms even bigger, it might expand the fan base by attracting fans of asian-style fantasy, and it might broaden the horizons of existing Realms fans by giving them an opportunity to introduce some asian themed elements into their Realms. 15) It might provide some new avenues of "crunch" for designers to explore. I am sure there are a ton of classes, spells, weapons, magic items, gods, and feats for designers to let loose their imaginations on that would thrill the fans. I bet there would be enough ideas for new monsters alone to fill up a new monster sourcebook. 16) A Kara-Tur product would lend itself to advertising during anime shows on Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, and might even help introduce D&D to a younger crowd. 17) Kara-Tur might appeal to the kids who like Naruto, the Last Airbender, Full Metal Alchemist, Samurai Champloo, Inuyasha, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke and other anime fantasy. 18) as the D&D customer base ages, I would think WotC and the Realms designers might want to seriously explore any product that might bring in a new generation of players in their teens and pre-teens. 19) If you want to replenish the population of roleplayers and D&D hobyists, you need to start them young and foster a love of roleplaying and D&D in young kids before the flashy online games and other hobbies have permanently stolen their attentions and their preferences have become set. Kara-Tur is an obvious bridge to those potential players. 20) Teach those kids that they could be like Inuyasha or Naruto using D&D and their imaginations. They could roleplay being airbenders, ninjas, monks, samurai or half-oni. They could fight giant monsters in Kozakura using giant magical suits of armor or riding around in colossal golems. Kara-Tur is uniquely positioned to be the setting of choice for these new fans while also appealing to existing D&D fans and Realms fans. I think a Kara-Tor sourcebook could be a winning product. If it were well written and marketed, it would sell a ton of copies and exploit new marketing synergies to widen the Forgotten Realms fanbase and bring in newer and potentially younger customers to the Realms and to D&D. :) |
| bitter thorn02-22-07, 07:54 AM | That was very well written, Grey! I don't care for # 20, but I think you make an excellent case. While I'm not a fan of the the east in FR, I'd most likely buy such a suppliment if well done. Quite insightful.:tiphat: |
| GothicDan02-22-07, 11:23 AM | To the Goth: As I said before, I'm too Mongoloid. No pale skin on me. While I happen to currently have blond hair and blue eyes, I'm Puerto Rican and Native American, too. That doesn't stop one of my favorite personally designed worlds from being a massive desert empire ruled by a tripirate Emperor of the Sun; a lot of Arabian and Egyptian influence, along with a good dose of personal creativity. I fail to see how skin color or ethnicity has anything to do with it. Then again, I hate any ethnic or cultural traditions, attachments, dogmas, etc. I think it's incredibly archaic and regressive. |
| Dark Wizard02-23-07, 11:59 PM | Gray's Awesome Post You said everything I wanted to say, but better. Kara-Tur has potential, it just needs to be realized. |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 01:43 AM | You said everything I wanted to say, but better. Kara-Tur has potential, it just needs to be realized.I would have to third this sentiment. For once Gray, you and I are on the EXACT same wave-length. You say everything I've been thinking (since Sarlona came out), but much more eloquently then I could. Kudos. :clap: The only other things I would like to add - the Ogre-Magi! They come from oriental culture, yet we have an Ogre-magi run empire on the other side of the world right now. Give them their own country too, along with all the others. It could use a REALLY EVIL Emperor-type too, like Ming the merciless, Fu-Manchu, or 'The Mandarin' of marvel comics fame. Also, would love to see oriental Gnomes. Think about it - the gnomish gift for tinkering combined with the Japanese techno-marketing, everything on the planet would be stamped "made in Tai-nome". :D |
| MerrikCale02-24-07, 11:58 AM | That was very well written, Grey! I don't care for # 20, but I think you make an excellent case. While I'm not a fan of the the east in FR, I'd most likely buy such a suppliment if well done. Quite insightful.:tiphat: I agree, very nicely done. I love the idea of a strong Naga and/or Yuan Ti presence. I however don't like the idea of Earth humans migrating to Toril. I never liked in Mulhorand and I don't here either |
| Gray Richardson02-24-07, 04:07 PM | I am sympathetic that you don't like the idea of humans migrating to Toril from Earth. However, it is firmly ensconced in lore, and actually it is part of Ed Greenwood's original conception of the Forgotten Realms. The Realms are "Forgotten" precisely because they had strong ties to Earth in the long, long ago. There are still portals between Earth and Toril, but in the past there were even more so. In Ed's conception, a lot of Earth's mythology may have been shaped by interaction with people and creatures of Toril, but Toril is now mostly "forgotten" by people of Earth. It states definitively in the PGtF (or maybe it was the FRCS) that there are native humans and there are non-native populations of humans that interloped from other worlds. The humans of Maztica and the people of Kara-Tur are listed as being non-native, having interloped from some other world in the distant past. It does not give Earth as the origin world for these people, but I think Earth is probably the best candidate. Going off the lore as written I concluded the Shou are probably immigrants from ancient china, the people of Tabot from Tibet, the Kozakurans from Japan and so on. The benefit of this explanation is that it gets rid of the notion of "parallel evolution". These cultures did not cheesily evolve to be exact clones of Earth populations. The similarity is explained by actual interaction with Earth in the distant past, which is consonant (in spirit) with Ed's original conception of how the Realms had some limited interaction with Earth in ancient times. My personal approach in all things Realms is to accept the published words as true and then try to extrapolate from that, so that is why I proposed the solution above. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde02-24-07, 04:22 PM | I am sympathetic that you don't like the idea of humans migrating to Toril from Earth. However, it is firmly ensconced in lore, and actually it is part of Ed Greenwood's original conception of the Forgotten Realms. And if somebody doesn't like it, it gets kicked out of the window ;) DB |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 07:10 PM | The benefit of this explanation is that it gets rid of the notion of "parallel evolution". These cultures did not cheesily evolve to be exact clones of Earth populations. The similarity is explained by actual interaction with Earth in the distant past, which is consonant (in spirit) with Ed's original conception of how the Realms had some limited interaction with Earth in ancient times.Excellent point, again. I like the idea that they were originally just like our versions, but now some evolution has occurred and they are heading in wildly different directions. This is what needs to be worked on here, not what they have in common with earth cultures, but what makes them different. I think, and I hope you in particular likes this Gray, that perhaps the Oriental peoples were an early attempt of the Imaskarii to bring in large groups of slaves. The Japanese sense of honor and dignity would've made them poor slaves, the Chinese were probably just too numerous to handle effectively, and the Mongols were just to insane/aggressive to use. So all these groups were Imaskarii 'failures', and either escaped or were set free. Then they found the Mediterranean cultures, peoples who had a long history of slavery and subjugation, and the rest, as we say, is 'history'. ;) My personal approach in all things Realms is to accept the published words as true and then try to extrapolate from that, so that is why I proposed the solution above.Believe it or not, this is exactly what I do with my world. Even when I don't like something, I still fit it in if its canon. Thats why my campaign is set 20 years into the future, so I can 'go back' and erase some of the damage, so to speak. Even when I moved Thay, I came up with a reasonable explanation rather then just say "it was always this way". My players wouldn't have known the difference, but it would have thrown the history for a loop, and I don't mess with 'history'. Maybe just ADD to it here and there... :D |
| Dark Wizard02-24-07, 08:18 PM | I don't particularly like how TSR handled the Old Empires, but I liked how it worked out for Calimshan/Lands of Intrigue, which had a similar otherworldly origins. I'm uncertain of the specifics for the Old Empires; however, it felt like they're just the Egyptians and Babylonians dragged wholesale from Earth because the Imaskari population suffered from a potent plague. The immigrants from Calim's Great Arrival however were just a limited number of humans and halflings following their genie master. Just a handful of people, given enough power and influence can change a culture. The Djen mixed with the locals of Calimshan to form the current Calishite ethnicity and culture. To say they are influenced by some Earth-like peoples allows more room for independent development than saying the entire population originated from an Earth-like world. This felt like a better blending the real world influences with the Realms. Perhaps to the extent that Greenwood intended and indeed implemented. Real world inspired gods like Tyr and Mielikki are fully integrated into the pantheon rather than retain most of their Earthly personas. They've gone native. Same for the original Mulhorand, which was supposed to be a nation of Set worshippers ala Stygia of the Hyborian age. |