Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bedlamtom 12-07-07, 10:28 PM	Hiya, I'm gonna be playing a Warlock, with 2 levels of Chameleon. I will be going places where there are dead magic zones and Shar worshipers. I was thinking of taking the Shadow Weave Magic feat as my 2nd level Chameleon floating feat. That would let me Warlock and cast any spells I Chameleoned that day. What would be the moral ramifications of using Shar's shadow weave against Shar worshipers? Would she notice and stop me ya think? I'm trying to noodle this all out. Thanks
Meldread 12-07-07, 11:51 PM	She'd send someone to kill you, and likely just for amusement, cut you off from the Shadow Weave when they arrived so you'd be defenseless.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:54 AM	-If you could explain to me what "2 levels of Chameleon" meant, I might be able to help a little more.
Bedlamtom 12-10-07, 01:43 PM	-If you could explain to me what "2 levels of Chameleon" meant, I might be able to help a little more. Chameleon is a PrC from Races of Destiny. Lets you emulate other class abilities and at 2nd level gives you a bonus feat that you have to rechoose every morning.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 02:34 PM	Chameleon is a PrC from Races of Destiny. Lets you emulate other class abilities and at 2nd level gives you a bonus feat that you have to rechoose every morning. -Hmm. Sounds pretty interesting.
Reneshat 12-11-07, 04:44 AM	I have serious issues with taking Shadow Weave Magic as the Chameleon floating feat. It requires a bit of devotion, and the point of the floating Chameleon feat isn't devotion, but rather the ability to pick up and mimic other people's abilities. If you did use it, if I was the DM, I would rule quite quickly that Shar has noticed you, especially if you are using it against her followers, and suddenly everything would be quite different. I think it's going against the basic premise of the class to use the feat slot for Shadow Weave Magic, even if it technically isn't against the rules. However, it is your game, not mine, so whatever you and your DM are comfortable with is what you should go with.
Bedlamtom 12-11-07, 11:05 AM	I have serious issues with taking Shadow Weave Magic as the Chameleon floating feat. It requires a bit of devotion, and the point of the floating Chameleon feat isn't devotion, but rather the ability to pick up and mimic other people's abilities. If you did use it, if I was the DM, I would rule quite quickly that Shar has noticed you, especially if you are using it against her followers, and suddenly everything would be quite different. I think it's going against the basic premise of the class to use the feat slot for Shadow Weave Magic, even if it technically isn't against the rules. However, it is your game, not mine, so whatever you and your DM are comfortable with is what you should go with. That's all good, except that it's not a faith based feat. There are two optional requirements, one is worship of Shar, the other is just a high enough wis modifier. Just to make certain we are talking about the current 3.5 write up of the feat in Player's Guide to Faerun. There is even a whole PrC of Wizards based on using the shadow weave that have nothing to do with Shar worship. I'm more worried about my alignment than the mechanics. At no time is Shar listed as omnicient. Her followers are known for back stabbing each other and working at odds with one another. I'm worried about the moral ramifications for my Chaotic Good Warlock.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 11:47 AM	That's all good, except that it's not a faith based feat. There are two optional requirements, one is worship of Shar, the other is just a high enough wis modifier. Just to make certain we are talking about the current 3.5 write up of the feat in Player's Guide to Faerun. There is even a whole PrC of Wizards based on using the shadow weave that have nothing to do with Shar worship. I'm more worried about my alignment than the mechanics. At no time is Shar listed as omnicient. Her followers are known for back stabbing each other and working at odds with one another. I'm worried about the moral ramifications for my Chaotic Good Warlock. -Shar controls access to the Shadow Weave, as it is in her stewardship.
Mr_Miscellany 12-15-07, 01:32 AM	-Shar controls access to the Shadow Weave, as it is in her stewardship.As Mystra controls the weave. And just like Mystra, Shar does not automatically bar users of the Shadow Weave out of spite just because they're not toeing 'her' line. It's not likely Shar would 'take away' the use of the Shadow Weave at all in this case, so no need to focus on this. Not to mention it'd be super-crappy DMing to think 1) Shar wants to waste enough of her divine attention barring access to her creation from one minor mortal, and 2) that it's a good idea to simply bar a player from using abilities they had every right to choose for their character. :::::::::::::::::: If I were the DM in this case, I would rule that the character can access the Shadow Weave without even needing to keep Shar as a patron. However, I'd also opt to push the flavor of that choice as much as possible, which is to say once any other Shadow Weave users come across that PC (and if they survive the encounter), then that PC will become the focus of much dark and diabolical attention. I’d expect (you) as the player to roleplay this choice as well. Simply going on with business as normal wouldn’t be acceptable. And finally: I think Shar would step back and see just what a Warlock using the Shadow Weave is all about. Are Warlocks better than traditional magic users? Are they more subversive and cunning? Who knows...maybe your DM will try to have Sharan agents convert you to her cause if you + your fellow party members start kicking ass...and you being the hero, well you can roleplay against that or maybe succumb to temptation? Lots of potential fun with this feat choice for your character. I like it.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 02:06 AM	As Mystra controls the weave. And just like Mystra, Shar does not automatically bar users of the Shadow Weave out of spite just because they're not toeing 'her' line. It's not likely Shar would 'take away' the use of the Shadow Weave at all in this case, so no need to focus on this. Not to mention it'd be super-crappy DMing to think 1) Shar wants to waste enough of her divine attention barring access to her creation from one minor mortal, and... From the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Pg. 57: Shadow Weave users also suffer some disadvantages. First, Shar has full control over the Shadow Weave and can isolate any creature from it or silence it entirely without any harm to herself. -This demonstrates that Shar can strip the Shadow Weave from those who don't "toe the line" as she feels fit. From Magic of Faerûn, Pg. 7: It is possible that Shar and another deity might make arrangements for a special follower to gain Shr's blessing without having to choose her as a patron; such agreements usually involve an extra quest for Shar and one for the character's actual patron as well -This demonstrates that it is highly unusual for a character to be able to access and tap the power of the Shadow Weave without being a Sharran, or having some kind of special reason/agreement for being able to utilize the Shadow Weave. 2) that it's a good idea to simply bar a player from using abilities they had every right to choose for their character. -The DM always has the final say, no matter what the situation. He's the final arbitor to anything going on in his/her game. If the DM says no, it's no, that's it, case closed, good bye, see you later, good night, unless the DM at some other point in time changes his/her mind.
Mr_Miscellany 12-15-07, 03:30 AM	Vaild points, but essentially all you've done is illustrate that Shar can do what Mystra can do...i.e. I don't believe Shar is proactive in isolating people from using the Shadow Weave, as she’s primarily interested in gaining more followers and adding numbers to those who use the Shadow Weave to weaken Mystra. IMO it makes more sense from a DMing PoV to have Shar try to tempt, force or otherwise turn the PC towards patronage of her (sorry, that sentence reads kinda weird..). -This demonstrates that it is highly unusual for a character to be able to access and tap the power of the Shadow Weave without being a Sharran, or having some kind of special reason/agreement for being able to utilize the Shadow Weave.Here’s where you’ll probably get annoyed, as the 3.5 FR Player’s Guide eliminates the need to be a Sharran or otherwise gain Shar’s blessing, by simply allowing a player to have a Wisdom score of 15 or higher (in the Feat prereqs). I’d dare to take this is a hint that Shar is backing off the ‘exclusivity’ requirement in order to gain more Shadow Weave users. I happen to like this, because I think WotC put too many restrictions on the use of the Shadow Weave early on. This added a level of complexity that was unnecessary and cumbersome for DMs and players.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 03:45 AM	I don't believe Shar is proactive in isolating people from using the Shadow Weave, as she’s primarily interested in gaining more followers and adding numbers to those who use the Shadow Weave to weaken Mystra. -Agreed, but when the individual isn't promoting things that bolster her own power, or when the individual does things that Shar would activley disapprove of, she'd have no problem denying access to the Shadow Weave. And, unlike Mystra, Shar has no mandates where everyone gets "equal access" to the powersource. -In this case, the OP is talking about using the Shadow Weave against other Sharrans. While, in and of itself, Shar might not care too much, it also matters who the Sharrans are, and what they are up to. For example, Shar migh not have an qualms about the OP's character beating up some no-name cultists who are, ultimatley, meaningless, she'd definitley have qualms about the OP's character beating up, say, a high priestess in the midst of summoning the Shadowstorm. IMO it makes more sense from a DMing PoV to have Shar try to tempt, force or otherwise turn the PC towards patronage of her (sorry, that sentence reads kinda weird..). -Agreed. Here’s where you’ll probably get annoyed, as the 3.5 FR Player’s Guide eliminates the need to be a Sharran or otherwise gain Shar’s blessing, by simply allowing a player to have a Wisdom score of 15 or higher (in the Feat prereqs). I’d dare to take this is a hint that Shar is backing off the ‘exclusivity’ requirement in order to gain more Shadow Weave users. I happen to like this, because I think WotC put too many restrictions on the use of the Shadow Weave early on. This added a level of complexity that was unnecessary and cumbersome for DMs and players. -That's in the FRCS, too. The FRCS says 'Wis 13+ or Patron: Shar' -The fact still remains, however, that Shar still has the final say in who can access the Shadow Weave, regardless of alignment, patron, etc. That she cares or not is something for the DM to decide. -Something to keep in mind, though, is how the character is learning about the Shadow Weave, and learning how to tap into it in the first place. Sharrans are the ones in charge of the..."proliferation" of the Shadow Weave. And, at least in my campaigns, when gaining a new feat, or something, that offers a character some kind of ability, it needs to be justifiable. Using this as an example, I would never allow a PC to randomly learn how to tap into something new like the Shadow Weave without any kind of instruction or anything like that. I just recently had an argument with a player of mine when I denied him the ability to become a Shadowdancer, citing the fact that his Rogue, while meeting all of the criteria in the book, couldn't justify being able to perform such magical feats on his own. We're in the process of fixing that situation in a mutually pleasing way, but the same idea applies here.
Meldread 12-15-07, 04:07 AM	After some thought on this, I have to agree with Miscellany on most of his points. However, I'd set up a few rules right from the get go. 1. The Shadow Weave fits well with the Warlock Theme. Even if you meet the requirements, but do not have Shar as your patron deity, it would take a considerable amount of time to access. I would rule that if you wanted to play a Shadow Weave using Warlock, that you'd have to take the feat at character creation. I would then tie the Shadow Weave into your Warlock abilities. In other words - it wasn't something you consciously chose, much like a Sorcerer, you are just naturally attuned to the Shadow Weave. 2. I would decide what this means right from the start. Immediately, if any follower of Mystra (in particular one of the Guardians of the Weave) finds out your "secret" you will be public enemy #1. It almost will not matter what you say or do, followers of Mystra will instantly be working against you. 3. I would decide how your character was born with this special connection to the Shadow Weave. It would be something that your character does not know, and will be "discovered" through the course of the game. 4. You would be constantly and endlessly tempted from both within and without. Although it isn't cannon, my Shadow Weave is "tainted" by Shar's contact with it. Those who embrace the Shadow Weave, but do not have Shar as their patron, slowly but inevitably are driven into insanity. This is why your character needs a minimum amount of Wisdom to even take the feat. (Otherwise, he'd go insane instantly.) I would rule that since you're naturally attuned to the Shadow Weave, that you have natural defenses that help prevent this, but as you grow in power (level up) and use your powers more... how long can those defenses hold out? (This is also the explanation as to why your character is not already insane.) 5. Once your character begins to experience the "taint" of the Shadow Weave, he will begin to feel the lure and call of Shar. It will call to him in his dreams and occasionally in his periodic bouts of madness. Only through embracing Shar will your character be "shielded" from the taint. Though whatever permanent damage is done is permanent. 6. I would design alternative methods to dealing with the taint issue, but suffice it to say they would be fraught with tragedy and endless struggle. Of course, the rewards would also be greater but so will be annihilation and the complete loss of sanity.
Reneshat 12-16-07, 03:29 AM	He wants to take a prestige class that allows the character to "mimic" the abilities of other classes. This includes such abilities as "Mimic Class Feature." One of the things that this prestige class gives you is a bonus feat that you choose at the beginning of each day when you choose which class "aptitudes" you are going to focus on, and which classes you will mimic the features of. He wants to be able to access the shadow weave using this ability when it is of most convenience to him, such as dead or while magic zones. He wanted to know "What would be the moral ramifications of using Shar's shadow weave against Shar worshipers? Would she notice and stop me ya think?" I replied I had some issues with the idea, but it was his game not mine so he should do what he felt comfortable with and what he would have fun with. However, it seems like a lot of the discussion since my reply has been about whether or not a non-Sharran could use Shadow Weave, even against Sharrans possibly. That's not actually the question at hand.
Meldread 12-16-07, 04:14 AM	Ah! I didn't understand that, my apologies. No, that won't work. At least not if you want to stay close to cannon lore. If you attempt to use the Shadow Weave, then that feat is permanently yours. You will no longer have access to the Weave, and will not be able to stop using the Shadow Weave. The only way to stop would be: 1. Death. 2. Shar cutting you off. 3. A wish to change, and Mystra herself intervening to allow you access to the Weave. Death is the most likely method to end a connection to the Shadow Weave.
Mr_Miscellany 12-16-07, 03:18 PM	If I were the DM I'd say that for the duration of that Feat being used to access the Shadow Weave, the character couldn't use the Weave at all. But only for the duration. The DM's call, IMO.l