| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Bladesong08-26-06, 07:37 PM | Alright, we all know why we love the Forgotten Realms. Now, what do we hate about it and how do we cope with our hate? It bothers me that there are so many high level characters in the realms. It seems like in a span of twenty realms years, the average hero level increased by ten. I dislike how demography doesn't make sense in the realms. It bothers me that for a high fantasy setting, everything is so human-dominated. It also bothers me how there seems to be a major conflict every other year. Sigh... maybe I'm too picky. Any thoughts? |
| GothicDan08-26-06, 07:47 PM | Really not going to get all preachy (FR is only my third favorite setting!), but I think a lot of times the 'problems' people have with the Realms come from either a lack of information they have, or misconceptions due to what we 'know' about it as printed by publishers (as opposed to what Ed knows). Basically, the more one knows about things, the more sense it tends to make. Not always, but usually. What don't I like about the Realms? Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. Many of the fans? ;) |
| Lord Karsus08-26-06, 09:08 PM | -Well, to sum it all up: Drizzt Do'Urden. -It's not really Drizzt that bothers me. As an anomoly, he is an interesting character. A kinda likeable guy. But, then there are the rabid Drizzt fans who are, in Dan's words, are like, "LOlZzz! Drizt roXx!!11!1 ZOMGGG!!1!". 'Nuff said... |
| Dark Wizard08-26-06, 09:22 PM | Hmm... - That there are other continents that don't fit into the overall established atmosphere of the Realms. If they're going to be in the Realms, it is about time they got integrated, at least to the extent that the Moonshaes, the Bloodstone Lands, and the Old Empires have. Some sign of interaction, some explanation, and definitely more detail. - Too many stat'ed high level NPCs. I don't mind the actual characters, their histories or their personalities. I just wished that instead of listing a definitive stat block they would list a rough minimum level or CR and some notable abilities or specialties. Then say the levels are scalable with the PC. I believe one 2e sourcebook suggested that Khelban should be at least 8 levels above the PCs at all times, unless the DM wishes otherwise. That is just so much more adaptable. I do that, many of the DM's I've played with do that, but to have it as an official policy would make it standard. I think even the powers of comicbook superheroes fluctuate slightly for the sake of the plot. |
| Agent_of_the_Crown08-26-06, 11:59 PM | What DON'T I like about the Realms? The prevalance of supposedly uber-powerful Npc characters does not bother me. In a campaign world like Forgotten Realms, if they weren't around I would be asking where they were! I love the fact they are typically worked into the background in a fashion that doesn't (at least in the games I play in) detract from the players sense of achievement and story. In response to one of the original posters other dislikes, I am quite glad the world appears to be dominated by humans...that is what makes the other races all the more interesting and keeps the setting familiar to the common person. If I had to pick something I don't like about the Realms it would be that I don't know nearly as much about it as I would like, and I know I never will because it seems to grow faster than I have time to dedicate to learning about it. That in my opinion is not such a bad problem to have though. I might also say that since coming to these boards, I find I don't like all the negative feelings towards a great character like Drizz't and the Dark Elves in general that is being stirred up "fanatical fanboys" (I assume that is the appropriate term since I certainly am not familiar with all of the board and chat room slang/shorthand used in message boards and such) that can't seem to come up with any other character concepts other than that of a "cool" Drow character for every gaming group they play in. Nor the fact that they can't seem to discuss Dark Elves in a rational manner without resorting to some sort of "Drow Elves Rule!" mindset. This negative backlash that is being generated sometimes really makes it hard to discuss real issues about Dark Elves, or especially anything related to or inspired by Drizz't (or even R.A. Salvatore for that matter). Other than that, it is ALL GOOD in my opinion. I originally was a big fan of Greyhawk, and I kind of turned my nose up at the Realms when it came out. I still love Oerth and Greyhawk, but I have to say I have been assimilated...the Realms feel so much more...well just so much MORE! I still play Greyhawk, but my real passion for an established, pre-generated fantasy campaign setting lies with the Realms, hands down! If you don't like it, that is cool with me...just go away and play your video game or something and leave me to enjoy the rich tapestry of high fantasy that is the Realms...Thank you kindly. |
| Lord Karsus08-27-06, 12:08 AM | I might also say that since coming to these boards, I find I don't like all the negative feelings towards a great character like Drizz't and the Dark Elves in general that is being stirred up "fanatical fanboys" (I assume that is the appropriate term since I certainly am not familiar with all of the board and chat room slang/shorthand used in message boards and such) that can't seem to come up with any other character concepts other than that of a "cool" Drow character for every gaming group they play in. Nor the fact that they can't seem to discuss Dark Elves in a rational manner without resorting to some sort of "Drow Elves Rule!" mindset. This negative backlash that is being generated sometimes really makes it hard to discuss real issues about Dark Elves, or especially anything related to or inspired by Drizz't (or even R.A. Salvatore for that matter). -Exactly how I feel, only you expressed it in a much more thought out and mature manner. |
| Red_Wizard08-27-06, 02:06 AM | In all honesty i hate complaints/complainers. (Yes i know i'll hear about it from somewhere/someone for coming here to complain, and how i'm being no better than those i complain about, but i suppose i'll have to deal with it). So basically my beef are the ones who want to insite chaos where there is none. How do complaints that are repeats, over things that aren't broken helping? Every second thread seems to be more opinion that question. Does it matter whether people hate dirzzt, or who is cooler Drizzt or Entreri? Did anyone ever think that maybe, just maybe Wizards would look at more real issues if they didn't have to sift through the same old crap time and again. Also, if you want to complain, come with all the fact's, and having read all you can, and then even take a step back and see if you can in someway make sence of your issue on your own (ie: epic level chracters in abbundance.....See my last post in "General Discussion" under the topic "Why all the hate") Sorry if i'm alittle ornary, and my spelling/grammer is poor, it's late, and for some reason i'm beat after a long day of nothing :P. Also, i think the over abundance of thread's like this lately is getting to me ie: "why all the hate", Ebberon or Forgotten realms" and now this one. But yeah, the thing i think would makes these boards better, and in turn the Realms better, are no more usless threads (nothing against the original poster, but i have no idea what you hoped to gain from this post. Honestly we all know there are people willing to jump on the hate bandwagon at a moments notice). |
| GothicDan08-27-06, 02:08 AM | What is a useless thread? ;) *Devil's advocate, skitters away.* |
| Agent_of_the_Crown08-27-06, 02:39 AM | I don't see what the problem with this thread is. This is the kind of thread the game designers should be looking at, if only in passing. We are the readers, players, and fans of FR and if there is something we don't like, then they probably want to know about it. They may not change anything, but it can't hurt to know what people are talking about. So what if a bunch of people write in with stupid answers (and YES, THERE ARE STUPID QUESTIONS AND STUPID ANSWERS, just like there are STUPID PEOPLE!), there are also going to be those that have meaningful contributions. (Here is to hoping that my answer/response is not deemed stupid. :) ) |
| Red_Wizard08-27-06, 05:05 PM | No, it's not stupid at all, and i agree on the fact of "how else will they know unless we say it", But the problem arises when there is no specific point to the thread...ie: "What Bothers you about the forgotten realms?" The problem with this is your gonna get answers like "I hate all the epic level Characters" And ofcourse the responce is "Why" To which you get the general answer of "Because". Noone want's to take a step back and say " gee, i wonder if maybe there is a good balance of them compared to the big picture....?" Or, we get the infamous "I hate drizzt", then again with the "why", and the wonderful answer is "because other people wanna play him all the time". That is what's wrong with threads like this. Those aren't constructive remarks. The devs won't sit down at their table later and say "well little jimmy doesn't like Drizzt, because tommy wants to be him, so we should probably just go right ahead and scrap him for little jimmy". Just because there are newbs out there who can't be original in their character creation, doesn't mean we need to rag on Drizzt. Just cause 80 people wanna talk about him on a regular basis, doesn't mean you have to read it, take it in, or ultimatly start saying Drizzt is overused. Take a good hard look at what Drizzt really does in the realms, and how popular he is IN THE GAME, not in our real world. Maybe then you'll see there is nothing wrong with him. (This isn't getting pointed at anyone BTW, just a generalization.) Now, what would be helpful information? Well let's see. When people disliked the Mysteries of the Moonshae "source book", they said so, and many gave good reasons as to why, and how to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. That being said, many things went wrong with that. There were indeed many great responces that truly said what went wrong, and why, and also what not to do in the future, but thats were it should have stopped. The problems arose when 30 people wanted to say the same thing, every 5 seconds, only in diffenet words and length of post. IF ITS BEEN SAID LEAVE IT ALONE. As a dev i can't imagine i'd wanna read through 50 pages telling me the same thing, hoping beyond hope i somehow find something new. Also, if you don't have anything to add, dont'. Simpple. How many times did we all see im sure, "i hated MotM, it was a waste of money" and that was it. No help there whatsoever. Another good example of a helpful thread was the one about what we all want out of the realms. Often saying what you want, why you want it, and how it is different from whats there now, is more helpful to the Dev's than simply coming out and saying what bothers you. Cause frankly they can try a million times and still never make anyone happy, and in the end who can blame them with remarks like "i hate epic characters". If we don't say what we want, instead of what we hate, then we deserve to suffer through any errors they may make. |
| Riodrian08-27-06, 07:20 PM | What bothers me most about the Realms? Hmmmm. Well, nothing. I kinda like it. It's full of lore and good reading. Ed hit spot on with it, in my opinion. Always something new to see or do no matter how long you have played in them. Now, about Drizzypoo. I only dislike him because of the aforementioned rabid fanboys, but I don't let it get to me too much. My real reason for disliking him is the fact I had a nice CG Drow fighter/magic-user/thief back in 1st edition who became utterly unplayable, despite the awesome roleplay of the character, when Streams of Silver came out. The inevitable comparisons, comments, and so on made me not even want to play one of the most creative characters I had. So, yeah, Drizzypoo's fanboys made me dislike him. That said, the books are good...but not every fan is. |
| Agent_of_the_Crown08-27-06, 10:09 PM | I also had a 1st edition Drow (who eventually converted over to 2nd edition), Female Fighter/Magic-User/Thief before there was a Drizz't Do'Urden. Fortuneately I have never played in group that had fanatical fanboys to ruin that experience for me. I hooked up with one for a single session as the GM, and when they all started arguing over who was going to get to play a Drow (2nd Edition BTW) I just packed up and said "Good Day!". (They were literally arguing! :confused: The primary complaint was that if so and so got to play a Drow then everybody else's character would suck in comparison to him! :confused: Spare me that type of gamer!) |
| Lord Karsus08-27-06, 10:35 PM | (They were literally arguing! :confused: The primary complaint was that if so and so got to play a Drow then everybody else's character would suck in comparison to him! :confused: Spare me that type of gamer!) :nonono: -I wonder if they realized that they would be at so many penalites. Light blindness, not having magical items or abilities to rely on in the light, being ostracized from, literally, the entre world... :nonono: |
| Teh_username08-28-06, 01:08 AM | My main complaint with the Realms is the same one I have with nearly every published campaign setting, for any game: the "nothing happened until 20 years ago" syndrome. There's mounds of history, sure. However, up until the past 20 years before the campagin starts, things happen once a decade. Now, there's some "major" event once a month. I know the obvious OOC reasoning, and even IC you could say "records have been lost" or "no one remembers the less important stuff except scholars", but it just bugs me. Nothing that can be done about it, mind, and at least FR's not as bad about it as some other settings. |
| Lord Karsus08-28-06, 01:16 AM | -Hmm. Another thing I don't like about the Realms is how established lore is completely ignored, or overridden every once and a while. That's not a problem of the setting itself, but the designers/authors instead. But, that's still something I find annoying... |
| Ranger REG08-28-06, 01:43 AM | Any thoughts? What bothers me about Forgotten Realms is: Faerun. It's "Faerun this" or "Faerun that." Hello? The title of this setting is NOT Realms of Faerun. :noway: |
| GothicDan08-28-06, 01:52 AM | Of course, the title Forgotten Realms refers to Faerun, specifically. Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc. are not referred to as 'The Realms.' The Realms are what inhabitants of Faerun refer to the continent. This was true in Ed's own setting and holds true in canon 3E WotC publications. ;) 'The Forgotten Realms' != Abeir-Toril. |
| Zargain08-28-06, 02:54 AM | My only problem with the setting is that its not "low-level friendly" if you know what I mean. If you set your game in the Dalelands then you have to contend with drow in Cormantor (and to make it safe for a low level party you can only throw one 1st level warrior drow at a time which is just unrealistic to the extreme...), if you set it in the north (the silver marches, sword coast ect.) then the area outside the cities has bands of barbarians, ogres, trolls, orc raiding parties ect. each one too numerous or generaly much stronger than a level 1-3 party. It makes realism too dangerous for the players but balancing for the players far too unrealistic (lest you have your players wearing, "I went through the troll and giant infested evermoors and all I fought were some lousy dire rats" T-shirts...) I love the setting but its my only problem with it. I'm doing well enough with my new campaign and I've tried balancing realism and difficulty well enough. |
| Bladesong08-28-06, 04:10 AM | Well I love the Forgotten Realms. I think it's superior to all the other settings. I happen to like Drizzt a great deal and it's only mildly annoying to me with the rabid fanboys. The problem is, as Zargain puts it, the Forgotten Realms are not "low-level" friendly. I can tolerate a 16th or 18th level NPC but it just annoys me how every nation seems to have ten 25th level Chosen. The "If it's been said, leave it alone" doesn't hit home with me. No one listens to a complaint the first time, or the second, third, and fourth times. The designers should look for threads like this and take notice of the most complained about issue. If you want something to change, you do something about it, not say it once and wait for ripples. If someone makes an incoherent argument, then it's up to your own person to ignore that fool, no? |
| Red_Wizard08-28-06, 01:52 PM | It's not one arguement. It's a dozen different threads, every couple weeks, with no base for the argument beyond the initial statement, no will to back it up, and no suggestions on how to improve it. And again, right there you have proved my point very nicely. I can tolerate a 16th or 18th level NPC but it just annoys me how every nation seems to have ten 25th level Chosen. So what should they do about it? Beyond your obvious enojoyment of overstatement all you've done is re-said what a dozen or more others have, and again nothing else. Does that help? Hell no it doesn't. And it doesn't help if 50, or 100, or 1000 people decide to get together and say the same thing. It's like kids in the back of a car saying "are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet?" After awhile who really want's to hear it anymore? And who really does? If anyone want's to honestly make changes via these threads, useless stuff needs to go on hiatus for a few weeks. Then, ONE PERSON, can start something with a legitimate complaint again. They can make a suggestion on how to fix it, or give examples of where it is "broken". Then, only then, can people post if they have something of genuine worth to put forth. The problem after that is then re-interesting the important people too want to come back and invest their time in reading this stuff. With time i'm sure they might even look forward to the suggestions, but there is no way they will ever start trying to sift through long threads on the off chance of having some brilliant revelation on what we want. :rolleyes: |
| Bladesong08-28-06, 02:12 PM | Geez. You're very cranky, aren't you? If it annoys you so much, then don't even bother with it. It's really up to you if you want to click on that link, isn't it? What you believe is certainly one point of view but does that make it absolute truth? It does help if a thousand people keep saying the same thing. That's how complaints get noticed. One person can't do all the complaining. There are a lot of consumers out there and no one's going to listen to one odd voice. People who run businesses don't care to make just one person happy, they want to make the majority happy. As for the the overabundance of high-level characters, I propose, though it pains me to even think it, another Realms Shaking event where a large percentage of the existing high-level NPCs are killed off. Something like that would allow for the introduction of new characters as well as making the Realms more "low-level" friendly. |
| Snotlord08-28-06, 02:48 PM | There is a couple of things that bothers me about the Forgotten Realms: 1) The Time of Troubles did not not improve the setting, and especially Lord Ao was a silly silly idea. 2) Shade is cool, but introducing something like that into a setting, and not have a good plan, was not very clever. FR needs a stronger focus (both as a setting and as a product), not simply more because it can be done. 3) No art direction. 4) Products with weak themes, like the Champions books. ...in short: lack of a plan. |
| Bladesong08-28-06, 02:59 PM | I think that might have to do with the fact that the Realms are so panoramic. It's a huge place and so a single focus might not make any sense. What do you mean by art direction? |
| Dexter_Blacktyde08-28-06, 03:27 PM | What do you mean by art direction? I assume he means that the FR don't have a consistent look. A look you automatically associate with a campaign setting can be a strong selling point. (WotC attempted this by assigning Todd Lockwood, Sam Wood and some others to redesign the D&D art in general, but unfortunately they kicked them out when the work was done.) Before 3E, there were Elmore, Parkinson, Caldwell and Easley. But now...? DB |
| Snotlord08-28-06, 03:38 PM | FR was panoramic back in '87. Now its crowded. At one point it simply become too much. For me, that was with Shade. By art direction I mean a consitent look that fits the setting. Certain styles that match. Art of people and places that defines the setting consistently. Hard to define really, but I'd say 2e FR books and the Eberron books have a consistent look. |
| Khaelieth08-28-06, 06:32 PM | Too many people. Should be decimated. There are just a few too many gigantic cities there, and they seem to have grown, for example in just 3 years Loudwater grew from 2000 to 8000. |
| BrianCritchley08-28-06, 07:31 PM | yeah I get the feeling WOTC doesn't have any LONG TERM plans for d&D it's like they approuch each year individually, which leads to the feelings of tooo much happening etc, too many RSE'sm, they should look strongly at stretching a single RSE out over a few years of realms time, doing it so in a way that it is barely noticeable to start with |
| Lord Karsus08-28-06, 09:12 PM | yeah I get the feeling WOTC doesn't have any LONG TERM plans for d&D it's like they approuch each year individually, which leads to the feelings of tooo much happening etc, too many RSE'sm, they should look strongly at stretching a single RSE out over a few years of realms time, doing it so in a way that it is barely noticeable to start with -Well, look at the roll of years. In the past, we've had boring things, like the Year of the: Tankard, Unstrung Harp, Sword, Shield, Banner, Staff. Not too much to build off of those. But, with recent and future years, we have the Rogue Dragons, Risen Elfkin, Wild Magic...RSEs have been fortold. |
| boards08-29-06, 04:44 AM | My biggest problem is a lack of epic clerics and paladins. I know that the goal of high level priests is to eventually join with their god, but if elven high mages can resist the call of arvandor, and Amlaruil can volutarily return because of a feeling of duty despite all of her loved family (excepting her youngest son and possibly a few others we dont know about) then surely a few high level priests could do the same. There are many epic spell casters and presumably Mystra could call on many of the good aligned ones to help her out, but no other god(ess) has someone who can compare with this. Who is the highest level divine NPC in the Realms, King Gareth Dragonsbane? a level 20 paladine, level 10 cleric, can't think of many others. The only other problem I have is that priests still use the weave, I would rather that they use the planar energies of their Gods home plane but that is a very minor thing. |
| Faraer08-29-06, 04:51 AM | The priesthoods are relatively sparsely detailed in general -- knowledge of the high priests is just a part of that. Great as Faiths & Avatars is, there's a mass of general and specific material on these organizations yet to see print. If you want to see more on the priesthoods (as do I, though the highest-level leaders is the least of it), write a letter to customer services or specific people at Wizards of the Coast. The general point is that what's published about the Realms isn't representative of the Realms, but of what people have wanted (or what TSR/WotC thought they wanted) to buy. |
| Beckett08-29-06, 06:19 AM | I have never been a fan of FR, but everyone always wants to play it above any other setting. The world really makes no sense to me, if you look at it in a realistic sense, even for a fantasty world. I hate that FR seems so focussed on Wizards, then rogues, and most others get left out. Clerics, which due to their focus on being a deities servant, a faith magic user, and a living mouthpiece for a higher power appeals to me. But then I see the "special rules" for Clerics, and I activly hate or dislike the vast majority of deities, feel extremely hamstrung for playing a character I'd actually like to play. Not to mention that there are just way to many. Seriously, kill off about 75% of the deities. With all of the attention Arcanists recieve, you'd think that they could they could come up with individual Divine prestigue classes other than one that literally is a slave to all Wizards. I do not dislike the fact that there are some high level NPC, but I do extremely hate that FR Dm's often envoke them to railroad players into their goals, they are almost always Wizards or Sorcerers, (and thus by the rules can charm and dominate you into it). I've always been a firm believer that the world, in general hates and dislikes Wizards and Sorcerers, due to their power, and the fact that nearly every mortal caused disaster in recorded history is directly caused by a Wiz or Sor casting to powerful a spell. But, people just look the other way and shrug in FR. Finally, based on the actions, rules, and nature of Mystra, she is a tyrannical, possesive, domineering LE. But, and only because, she is a minor underlining story theme, she is not only not reviled by people, even those who actively hate the deities interference in mortals lives. I whole heartedly agree that Divine magic should not in any way be conected to the weave, but also think Mystra's power over other deities should be limitted to only their ability to cast Arcane Spells, nothing more. But it makes no sense to me why other deities have not taken her out. tempus could, Talos could easily, and there is nothing she could do about it. Deities specifically hate her, and she is, all in all rather defensless against them, so why do they not act? Finally, unlike in the 2nd editiony version, the world has been completely explored by now. . . |
| Raelan_Harpell08-29-06, 09:15 PM | Personally, the only thing that bothers me about the Forgotten Realms these days is the simple fact that the recent products, with the possible exception of Power of Faerun and Dragons of Faerun (both of which I haven't had a chance to really look at), haven't exactly been stellar. The last supplement that truly grabbed me was Lost Empires, which was uber. Actually, come to think of it, there is one other thing that bothers me: the proliferation of nonstandard races in the various supplements. The more weird races that show up, the more the people of the "I can't be special unless my character is an orc-troll half-fiendish necromancer/cleric/mystic theurge/incantatrix" want to play them. I prefer that players use the races from the FRCS simply because most of them can enter a city without arousing undue attention; i.e. it's possible to do city-based adventures where the inhabitants don't freak out and try to run the PCs out of town on sight every single time. As for the people who think there are too many high level NPCs in the Realms, I must say that I disagree. The common argument is that, with all of the high level good NPCs, there would be nothing for the PCs to do. Frankly, I think this is quite unrealistic, as there are so many evil NPCs and power groups that there is simply not enough time in any given day for someone like Elminster to solve all of Toril's ills. In addition to the numerous published high level evil NPCs and power groups, there can be as many more as the DM wants to throw in. In fact, the published ones are probably the more public and obvious evildoers in the Realms; the more secretive and cunning ones likely never get noticed. To use an analogy, think of real life: the criminals in any given large city usually outnumber the police, and crimes often go unsolved for months or years, assuming anyone even knows that they're happening in the first place. Think of how many meth labs get discovered in neighborhoods where the neighbors never even knew they were there; think of all the money-laundering that likely goes on that no one knows about until the criminals get hit by a random audit by the IRS. With all of this going on, how is law enforcement supposed to stop it all? Well, in terms of the Realms, enter the PCs and other adventuring groups. :cool: |
| Lord Karsus08-30-06, 03:27 AM | But then I see the "special rules" for Clerics, and I activly hate or dislike the vast majority of deities, feel extremely hamstrung for playing a character I'd actually like to play. Not to mention that there are just way to many. Seriously, kill off about 75% of the deities. -Look at any other polytheistic culture, such as Greece, Rome, Ancient China, Japan, and you'll see a recurring there- many, many deities. If anything, the 'Realms don't have enough. For instance, there are no patrons for individual cities, like the Romans/Greeks had. And, hating the deities that already exist is a personal problem, and not one that the setting suffers as a whole. I do not dislike the fact that there are some high level NPC, but I do extremely hate that FR Dm's often envoke them to railroad players into their goals, they are almost always Wizards or Sorcerers, (and thus by the rules can charm and dominate you into it). I've always been a firm believer that the world, in general hates and dislikes Wizards and Sorcerers, due to their power, and the fact that nearly every mortal caused disaster in recorded history is directly caused by a Wiz or Sor casting to powerful a spell. But, people just look the other way and shrug in FR. -Again, this is not a problem with the setting, but instead a problem with the DM. That's the railroading that I'm talking about. As for anti-magical sentiments, there are plenty of places and people who fear/hate magic. But, most people, I am sure, view magical arts as a neutral thing. Magic doesn't kill people- the person wielding it does. There are just as many good wizards as there are evil ones, if not more. Think of this real-world analogy: Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Guns/Magic are just tools utilized. I whole heartedly agree that Divine magic should not in any way be conected to the weave, but also think Mystra's power over other deities should be limitted to only their ability to cast Arcane Spells, nothing more. -I agree. But, magic has to be filtered and shaped somewhere, so the Weave is needed. But it makes no sense to me why other deities have not taken her out. tempus could, Talos could easily, and there is nothing she could do about it. Deities specifically hate her, and she is, all in all rather defensless against them, so why do they not act? -There's a few reasons. Firstly, Mystra is a rather powerful goddess. And, perhaps most importantly, she IS the weave. A great and powerful (and handsome ;) ) individual once destroyed the goddess of magic. And, since the goddess of magic IS the weave, that leaves Faerûn without a weave, which results in widespread chaos, confusion and destruction. Finally, unlike in the 2nd editiony version, the world has been completely explored by now. . . -Actually, things have regressed. Not only is most of Toril uncharted, but Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara have all been abandonded by WotC, meaning that no more will be published on them in the forseeable future. So, basically, all of Toril consists of Faerûn. |
| Faraer08-30-06, 05:24 AM | Again, this is not a problem with the setting, but instead a problem with the DM. That's the railroading that I'm talking about.The 'it's the GM, not the rules/setting' argument is occasionally made in cases where although the rules/setting don't absolutely cause a particular thing, they do tend in its direction. That's not the case here. In the hundred-plus threads I've read discussing the supposed dominance of Realms campaigns by published NPCs, I haven't heard of one time it actually happened. It's a notional, non-existent problem -- a canard. Also, a degree of suspicion of magic is common, Mystra has only a handful of divine enemies among the pantheons, and Realms gods don't fight each other in Dragon Ball Z-style duels (where does this idea come from?). |
| Fabius Maximus08-30-06, 08:17 AM | I don't like the way alignments are handled. There are too much extreme characters in the realms. I cannot imagine that there are so many 'good' and 'evil' persons. Likewise, evil persons are always evil, often right down to sexual perversions (or what the authors think perversions are). It's to black and white for my taste. |
| Red_Wizard08-30-06, 10:58 AM | No offense, but you clearly havn't read that many realms novels, or played that many well DM'ed campaigns in the realms/ used any of the lower level NPC's. In alot of cases the NPC's of the realms have better writeups, and character development than most PC's i have played with. As for novels, like i said above, you clearly havn't read that many, if that is your standing opinion on the matter. |
| FrostedMini133708-30-06, 02:17 PM | Whew. Read everyones responses. -The high level thing NPC thing. It's been said. -The realms constantly being threatened by 4 different dire threats. - Not non-combat friendly. I like scheming. I like making my own groups, organizations and stuff like that. I like making Cha based checks to gain "power". The realms do not lend themselves well to these things. -Dragons and Liches. There are too many and they all hate you. -Nothing defines it. It makes a decent sandbox(until my character gets killed), but nothing overall gives the realms flavor or shape. My love is pretty much split 50/50 with FR and Ebberon. My love for ebberon will continue to grow provided they don't accelerate the timeline. |
| Ryltar Swordsong08-30-06, 05:58 PM | Things I hate about the Realms: The 3e cosmology (because it's lame and it made no sense to change it from the 2e setup), Shadow Weave magic, and the nigh-constant RSEs. Things I mildly dislike about the Realms: My-charracter-wants-to-be-a-Chosen-itis, Drow-are-uber-itis, My-character-has-Spellfire-itis, and the various other afflictions that fans succumb to. Things I love about the Realms: Everything else. |
| Patrakis08-30-06, 10:40 PM | For me it's the maps. I profondly dislike the bad cartography. Pat |
| Fabius Maximus08-31-06, 09:12 AM | No offense, but you clearly havn't read that many realms novels, or played that many well DM'ed campaigns in the realms/ used any of the lower level NPC's. In alot of cases the NPC's of the realms have better writeups, and character development than most PC's i have played with. As for novels, like i said above, you clearly havn't read that many, if that is your standing opinion on the matter. I meant neither novels nor campaigns I play. It's the sourcebooks that bug me. |
| Dark Wizard08-31-06, 04:54 PM | I often felt the earlier novels hammed up the villains too much, made them sort of goofy so as to not offend the uber-conservatives of the 80s (even the 90s). The sourcebooks on the other hand seemed to give more neutral interpretations of both heroes and villians, their histories and personalities were detailed in language that made it seem like the NPCs had accomplishments. It seems the sourcebooks always made the villains seem far more interesting, certainly less black and white, than in most of the TSR era novels. |
| GothicDan08-31-06, 06:45 PM | The 'it's the GM, not the rules/setting' argument is occasionally made in cases where although the rules/setting don't absolutely cause a particular thing, they do tend in its direction. Quoted for truth. The difference is: - One edition/setting/etc. actively encourages something through rules, lore, and the like. This was the case in 1E and 2E, when "arbitrary" and "silly" rules were made to help define the status quo of a given topic (world, culture, race, etc.). - Another setting/edition/etc. merely gives you mechanics with no actual solid impetus to employ them in a more creative/roleplay-heavy manner. Sure, it SAYS that "there aren't many Dwarven wizards," but new players especially are likely to wonder, "Well, the rules don't say they can't be, and they don't get a minus to Int. So why the heck don't they have a lot of wizards?" Ultimately, everything is up to the DM/GM of a certain game. But people who like the current edition (example - I hark on it, I know, but it makes sense in this case), and who actively defend it from a roleplaying point of view (and prefer that method of play), more often than not are those who played in previous editions or have been later exposed to the older rulebooks and lore. In effect, you have to look at it as a new 'generation' of roleplayers. And as the previous generation gets older and older, so too does its traditions. |
| GothicDan08-31-06, 06:53 PM | - Not non-combat friendly. I like scheming. I like making my own groups, organizations and stuff like that. I like making Cha based checks to gain "power". The realms do not lend themselves well to these things. *Blink. Blink.* The entire setup of the Realms is based on clandestine manipulations and secret power struggles. That's specifically why in the modern Realms the most powerful individuals and organizations tend to be the least visible (the Twisted Rune, Larloch, The Harpsters and the Moonstars), and why there tends to be relatively smaller regions of centralized control. People (typically newer ones, or older ones jaded by personally bad experiences) have been complaining for years on these boards that the Realms needs to be 'shaken up' more with less scheming and more overt plays for power. 3E has catered to this in large part (sigh) with the flood of RSE's and the refocusing of the Zhentarim as a zealous militant empirical organization rather than its previous incarnation as a much more secretive collection of magi that focused its efforts on small-scale subjugation and trade. People have also been complaining for years that there's "not enough visible evil in the Realms." That's because the majority of it is happening "off-scenes," in the hands of highly secretive groups and individuals who are more successful in the long-run. Some people may say, "Well if we aren't told explicitely the effects of something in a sourcebook, it doesn't exist!" In this case, it's sort of like the idea that the best crimes are those that we never hear of. Just because the news doesn't tell us about something doesn't mean that it never happened. The very fact that you DON'T know about all of the specific clandestine methods being used in the Realms, or what their goals are, means that they're doing it very, very well. -Nothing defines it. It makes a decent sandbox(until my character gets killed), but nothing overall gives the realms flavor or shape. The Realms 'as a whole' has little SPECIFIC flavor, but rather each and every region/country/etc. has its own flavor which, more often then not, has been painstakingly crafted together taking into account environmental factors, cultural migrations, wars, magical disasters, planar travel, etc. over the course of thousands of years. Each region/country/etc. in the Realms has infinitely more 'regional flavor' than that of any other setting I know of. In other words, ask yourself: "What is the flavor of Europe?" Kind of hard to answer, right? But it's a little easier if you ask, "What is the flavor of Scandinavia?" |
| FrostedMini133708-31-06, 07:18 PM | As for the my first point: that's what I mean. It's very difficult to start up your own little evil pact in the realms, because there are so freaking many. Second point: Right thats what I mean. |
| Lord Karsus08-31-06, 07:34 PM | As for the my first point: that's what I mean. It's very difficult to start up your own little evil pact in the realms, because there are so freaking many. -The Realms are so panoramic though, that if you can't find a place to create your own little evil group, you're not looking/trying hard enough. Not every group has to be as large and influential as the Zhentarim, or the Twisted Rune. A small-scale "grassroots" evil organization has lots of places to be implanted within Faerûn. |
| GothicDan08-31-06, 07:50 PM | As for the my first point: that's what I mean. It's very difficult to start up your own little evil pact in the realms, because there are so freaking many. Uh. The Dales? The Border Lands? The North? While there are many, there's still room for more. It's the equivalent of saying, "I can't start a business in the USA because there are so many already." Sure you can. Be prepared to work for it. Second point: Right thats what I mean. Okay. I wasn't aware that you considered a realistically (as much as any fantasy setting can be said to be realistic) designed setting to be a bad thing. What it sounds like is that you simply want a campaign setting with less overall lore and attention to historical and cultural detail. If that's the case, then I can see why you prefer Eberron for some things. (Not using that as an insult here.) |
| FrostedMini133708-31-06, 08:23 PM | Question while were at it: where eactly are the Borderlands? Near the border kingdoms they're detailing on the website right now? Other note: If I'm going to play a devoted cleric I'd rather be in the realms. That ambiguous deity crap in ebberon annoys me. |
| GothicDan08-31-06, 08:37 PM | Sorry, I actually meant the Border Kingdoms (my brain slipped and crossed in to WoT). |
| Bladesong09-01-06, 10:36 AM | Yikes, I never realized how brutal GothicDan can be. You know, if anything I think there might be too much good in the realms. There isn't a balance. Hmm... that might be too bold... don't worry about it, let's see what they think of it... |
| MerrikCale09-01-06, 01:20 PM | There is a couple of things that bothers me about the Forgotten Realms: 1) The Time of Troubles did not not improve the setting, and especially Lord Ao was a silly silly idea. 2) Shade is cool, but introducing something like that into a setting, and not have a good plan, was not very clever. FR needs a stronger focus (both as a setting and as a product), not simply more because it can be done. 3) No art direction. 4) Products with weak themes, like the Champions books. ...in short: lack of a plan. I pretty much concur with all of these complaints. Plus there is too much reliance on magic as an everday occurence as opposed to a strange, powerful thing. |
| Telesaken09-01-06, 07:18 PM | Yikes, I never realized how brutal GothicDan can be. You know, if anything I think there might be too much good in the realms. There isn't a balance. Hmm... that might be too bold... don't worry about it, let's see what they think of it... I often have discussions with my players and peers about that subject. They feel that good is too dominant in the world. I know that groups like the Thay are a present a threat, but they really don’t capture the ‘evil guy’ persona that a lot of players are looking for. Players think of Thay more as a capitalist corporation (I’m thinking Walmart) more than a group to be defeated or overthrown. I personally think the “faerun is good” view comes from many key factors.. First, there is no over whelming force of evil to be felt through the land. On Kyrnn, (Dragonlance) you had the Takhisis and her army of Draconians always ready to spring over any hill and invade or cause mischief. It feels like Faerun is just an assortment of evil gods who all feel less powerful than the good gods at face value. The closest entity they (people I speak to) have to evil on the world is the Drow, but most players have become so sanitized to the Drow they kind of seem overplayed or routine. Yes, the Drow are evil, and they are powerful, but they can’t seem to stop fighting each other or get out of that dark hole. The second factor I think comes from the amount of knowledge, or raw reading time, that is needed to truly understand the evil personalities in the land. Heck, even I don’t know very much about the land and I feel that I have done my fair share of reading (an example being the discussion of the ‘Twisted Rune’ in another thread, I had no idea who they were.) I think players get a certain kick about seeing specific groups/badguys in the game if they have beforehand knowledge that they exist. For example; if you’re playing Star Wars and a pack of storm troopers arrive, the players have a built-in feel for those baddies, in essence they have a built in expectation that they are bad and could be up to something. Faerun doesn’t really have any one that expresses that sense to the players. I have become fond of Yuan-Ti as of late, but they seem to also suffer from in-fighting and the inability to come together similar to the Drow. But in the eyes of my players evil will never *win* because they believe that the books are pro-good gods/organizations. I’m hoping the Olboud Empire flourishes and gains the support of anther powerful organization and creates a symbol of evil (not that Olboud really seems that evil, but rather trying to elevate his race.) wow that became way too long... I'll stop now, but on a side note I acutally love Champions of Valor. |
| Bladesong09-01-06, 07:42 PM | I think the "let evil defeat itself" line is getting overplayed. It seems that not one evil organization can create cohesion, not even the lawful evil ones. It just doesn't seem convincing that evil might actually prevail somehow. When I read a novel, I know that the good guys are going to win somehow and the actual process of reading is just to see how they do it. |
| Lord Karsus09-01-06, 08:49 PM | When I read a novel, I know that the good guys are going to win somehow and the actual process of reading is just to see how they do it. -That's a universal truth. Good always triumphs over evil. |
| GothicDan09-01-06, 11:18 PM | Good only seems more powerful in the Realms because blatant/open evil is the type of evil that gets itself smashed by an alliance of all parties who could be potentially harmed by said evil. Think about it. Sembia is a mostly-neutral country. If the Zhentarim is throwing armies at them, do you think they're going to deny the aid of the Harpers or the Moonstars or the clergy of the Triad? There has not been much "open" evil in Faerun for this reason, just like in real life. When "evil" arises on a large enough scale, all countries threatened by it band together against it - sort of like the World Wars. Also, the number of evil high-level NPCs equals if not exceeds that of good ones. And lastly, the Realms was designed, primarily, as a setting for you to make adventures in. Much of the evil was originally intended to be catalyzed by DMs. |
| GothicDan09-01-06, 11:21 PM | I think the "let evil defeat itself" line is getting overplayed. It seems that not one evil organization can create cohesion, not even the lawful evil ones. It just doesn't seem convincing that evil might actually prevail somehow. When I read a novel, I know that the good guys are going to win somehow and the actual process of reading is just to see how they do it. You do realize that part of evil's very nature is a natural disregard for the lives of others in one shape or form, right? This, inherently, leads to evil people not caring enough about each other to regularly aid them, and to betray them or directly go against each other. If evil did not defeat itself, it would be hard to call it evil. Then you'd just have neutrality. |
| GothicDan09-01-06, 11:29 PM | First, there is no over whelming force of evil to be felt through the land. On Kyrnn, (Dragonlance) you had the Takhisis and her army of Draconians always ready to spring over any hill and invade or cause mischief. It feels like Faerun is just an assortment of evil gods who all feel less powerful than the good gods at face value. The closest entity they (people I speak to) have to evil on the world is the Drow, but most players have become so sanitized to the Drow they kind of seem overplayed or routine. Yes, the Drow are evil, and they are powerful, but they can’t seem to stop fighting each other or get out of that dark hole. What's the overwhelming force of evil on Earth that makes it seem 'less good' compared to FR? :) The second factor I think comes from the amount of knowledge, or raw reading time, that is needed to truly understand the evil personalities in the land. Heck, even I don’t know very much about the land and I feel that I have done my fair share of reading (an example being the discussion of the ‘Twisted Rune’ in another thread, I had no idea who they were.) I think players get a certain kick about seeing specific groups/badguys in the game if they have beforehand knowledge that they exist. For example; if you’re playing Star Wars and a pack of storm troopers arrive, the players have a built-in feel for those baddies, in essence they have a built in expectation that they are bad and could be up to something. Faerun doesn’t really have any one that expresses that sense to the players. That's because, as I pointed out above, the manipulations of many organizations are left open-ended for DMs to decide. For instance, I much preferred in previous edition's how many of the methods of Shar were largely unknown, but always tenebrous and ominous. Now, we have the Darkmoon Monks, the Shades, the Shadow Weave, and even more stuff coming out. Part of the appeal of such clandestine deities is that they are more intimidating because you DIDN'T used to know what they were doing, and it left it open for DMs to do what they wanted. The current methodology of 'making evil more obvious in the Realms' not only makes such powerful evil organizations and entities more boring, but it also basically feels like WotC is shoving their own plots and adventure ideas down your throat. As for players having certain knowledge that something exists before the actual encounter, making it more fun? Faerun also has plenty of this. The Red Wizards of Thay, for one. (Zomg, they're not running around raping maidens, burning down villages, and summoning demons in farms! That doesn't make them less evil, it just makes them smart.) I’m hoping the Olboud Empire flourishes and gains the support of anther powerful organization and creates a symbol of evil (not that Olboud really seems that evil, but rather trying to elevate his race.) First of all, you're looking for an iconography that has no place in the FR setting, since it wasn't built around a single storyline/plot/theme such as some settings were (including Dragonlance, which is still one of my favorites). Again, what's the symbol of evil for Earth? And secondly, you enforce my point that by its definition, it is difficult for evil to work together with real sincerity of altruistic intent. That makes you neutral. |
| Asadeseth09-02-06, 12:35 PM | Pesonaly I LIKE the fact that there is no "Takhisis" in the relms, Dragonlance was way to much a one trick poney. FR has meny meny evil organizations to chose from, and to be honest thats make for a much beter setting. |
| Jiggawha09-02-06, 01:21 PM | Thing that bothers me is the lack of details in sourcebooks (this is only a 3rd edition problem). Other stuff is great. Other campaign worlds are lame with exception of Planescape. |
| GothicDan09-03-06, 01:48 AM | Pesonaly I LIKE the fact that there is no "Takhisis" in the relms, Dragonlance was way to much a one trick poney. FR has meny meny evil organizations to chose from, and to be honest thats make for a much beter setting. Exactly. If there was a 'major force of evil' in the Realms, what would happen to its feel when said character was killed in a novel or in a DM's campaign? The entire storyline crumbles, and all sense of drama is lost. And then, like in any unimaginative TV series that has gone on too long, a NEW, BIGGER, BADDER! Evil! comes up the next season.... The Realms is more realistic than that (in many ways). It's not made to shove a single plotline down your throat. It's made to be a world in which you can set your own plots. |
| Derren S.09-03-06, 09:02 AM | What bothers me with the realms is the overabundance of high and superhigh level NPCs which do nothing their whole live so that all problems have to be solved by low level PCs, the comic/dbz feel that every in game year a world changing threat appears. I'm bothered by the extremly high magic in the Fr and yet the simple medieval lifestil of its inhabitants which is completly unaffected by magic. I'm bothered by the unlogical and static political landscape of the FR where the evil nations/groups never succeed and the good ones never use this for their advantage which means things never change despite how unlikely that is. I am bothered by the mystra/chosen centric theme of the realms which don't even have to follow the game and fluff rules of the FR because Ed said so and finally I am bothered that the various power fantasies by the realms authors who make their novel heroes more and more powerfull, cool and generally badass with every novel and that this influences the game world. |
| Jartaxes09-03-06, 08:20 PM | I love the FRL's Its the greatest High Fantasy setting out there. All the cool monsters and NPC's. There is something for all levels of play. Let me say that I first read Homeland back in 93' and I loved the book and Drizzt became an instant favorite of mine. The book did give me an Idea for a drow character. I went out and bought "Drow of the Underdark". I enjoyed playing bladesingers so my DM and I created a drow classed bladesinger only we called it something else. I think that the drow becoming a playable race is one of the best things that has happened in D&D. They have got to be one of the coolest races in all of D&D. |
| Beckett09-11-06, 10:22 AM | I never liked the realms, but because so many people think it is D&D, they wish to play it. So, any time I DM a FR game, I establish these rules. 1.) It is an additional ten years later than the book states. 2.) Kelemvor and a few other Deities got tired of Mystra and offed her. The funny thing is, not a single bad thing happened. Magic did not go crazy or stop working. It work just like normal. No one knows exactly what happened, or which of the Deities that where present faught for or against Mystra, but Kelemvor was the one that led it against her and took part in her death directly. No magic will reveal why or what happened, but the moment she died, all of her chosen instantly died long painful deaths, their souls forever obliterated from existence. 3.) With the death of Mystra, and the astonishment of the world that magic still worked perfectly fine without her, Mystra has become a very heavily scorned faith, as most people believe that she was simply lying to keep herself looking important the whole time. It has not gotten to the point that the followers of Mystra are actively hunted, but they are often treated similar to ex cons in a small town. 4.) Only for 6th Level or higher Clerics of these two Deities. . . Cyric and Bane have scammed the world for years. They are not hated rivals, but actually close allies, working in secret towards destroying and usurping the deities. Bane is the stronger, and to keep the myth going, they sacrafice their low level followers and anyone that lets it slip. 5.) The big Clone guy, he was killed. Every Clone was hunted down and destroyed, his soul trapped in a gem to prevent resurection. Ever!!! There are a few more, mostly about little things that have changed in the world, but I don't remember them of the top of my head. But, that pretty much fixes the things I hate about FR. |
| Alediran09-11-06, 01:02 PM | I never liked the realms, but because so many people think it is D&D, they wish to play it. So, any time I DM a FR game, I establish these rules. 1.) It is an additional ten years later than the book states. 2.) Kelemvor and a few other Deities got tired of Mystra and offed her. The funny thing is, not a single bad thing happened. Magic did not go crazy or stop working. It work just like normal. No one knows exactly what happened, or which of the Deities that where present faught for or against Mystra, but Kelemvor was the one that led it against her and took part in her death directly. No magic will reveal why or what happened, but the moment she died, all of her chosen instantly died long painful deaths, their souls forever obliterated from existence. 3.) With the death of Mystra, and the astonishment of the world that magic still worked perfectly fine without her, Mystra has become a very heavily scorned faith, as most people believe that she was simply lying to keep herself looking important the whole time. It has not gotten to the point that the followers of Mystra are actively hunted, but they are often treated similar to ex cons in a small town. 4.) Only for 6th Level or higher Clerics of these two Deities. . . Cyric and Bane have scammed the world for years. They are not hated rivals, but actually close allies, working in secret towards destroying and usurping the deities. Bane is the stronger, and to keep the myth going, they sacrafice their low level followers and anyone that lets it slip. 5.) The big Clone guy, he was killed. Every Clone was hunted down and destroyed, his soul trapped in a gem to prevent resurection. Ever!!! There are a few more, mostly about little things that have changed in the world, but I don't remember them of the top of my head. But, that pretty much fixes the things I hate about FR. Then you are not playing in FR, it may be almost the same, but it's not FR. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-11-06, 01:12 PM | Then you are not playing in FR, it may be almost the same, but it's not FR. So what? The Realms get personalized (to varying degrees) by almost every group. If you wanted to be nitpicky, you could say the FR in their published form are not the FR - not those Ed had thought up. DB |
| Bladesong09-11-06, 01:25 PM | Big clone guy... Manshoon? Anyhow, that fourth point of yours is a stroke of genius. I wouldn't be surprised if that is actually what is happening. |
| Dark Wizard09-11-06, 02:19 PM | Interesting, the last few points are fun. I don't see how the first few points changes anything (well you whole point was that it didn't), other than letting off some steam against a handful of characters... If that's all there is to hating the Realms, then it's not much of a reason at all. I've heard some decently convincing explanations for why not to like the Realms, Mystra and her chosen were a drop in the bucket against those grievances. |
| Beckett09-11-06, 09:03 PM | No, mostly I dislike FR because of the way that Arcane Caster and Clerics are treated. There is way way to much for Arcane casters, it is just to over done. As for Clerics, with so many deities, there is almost no work done to come up with new ideas or classes, or anything for Clerics. Reading though Faiths and Pantheons, there are exactly three deities that I actually like. The others need to be taken down to demigod status or something, they are just annoying. |
| The Ubbergeek09-11-06, 09:16 PM | So, because you do not like them, they should not be there? :rolleyes: That's a big nice point for me -a variety of choices. And Alediran... Sorry, but... Why not just push her possible and potential alignement change, as she represent all magic? Make her LN/TN, change her personality, voila, it's Mystra but not her. :rolleyes: |
| Dark Wizard09-11-06, 09:35 PM | Then you dislike the setting a lot more than you let on in your original post. To "fix" the setting for you would require massive changes, but to do so you might as well start with something else. Not every setting is meant for everyone, but fortunately there are a lot of choices out there, and there's always homebrew. Encourage your players to try other settings, or look for players who have views similar to your own. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-11-06, 10:13 PM | Then you dislike the setting a lot more than you let on in your original post. To "fix" the setting for you would require massive changes, but to do so you might as well start with something else. Not every setting is meant for everyone, but fortunately there are a lot of choices out there, and there's always homebrew. Encourage your players to try other settings, or look for players who have views similar to your own. What if he likes everything else? DB |
| Dark Wizard09-11-06, 10:46 PM | Not sure. Beckett's posts implied he didn't like much of FR at all, from the characters, almost all the deities, the way magic is handled including how arcane and divine casters influenced the world. That's a good chunk of the setting. His first post makes it seem like it's a chore for him to run FR games, and he only does it to accommodate the players he plays with. He stated his opinions, others have tried to convince him otherwise, he seemed very resistant to their suggestions and ideas. Then it's pretty obvious FR just don't work for him. D&D is a game, it's supposed to be fun. If you're not having fun, time to find something else, be it another setting or anything else, that works for you. He shouldn't be railroaded to play in a setting he disagrees with by other players. I do understand that if you play in a setting all the time, it would be nice to see what else is out there. |
| The Ubbergeek09-11-06, 11:40 PM | Maybe Greyhawk would be his liking. Seriously, reading some posts, it may be a better setting for him... |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-12-06, 12:45 AM | Not sure. Beckett's posts implied he didn't like much of FR at all, from the characters, almost all the deities, the way magic is handled including how arcane and divine casters influenced the world. That's a good chunk of the setting. His first post makes it seem like it's a chore for him to run FR games, and he only does it to accommodate the players he plays with. I stand corrected. (I completely forgot about his other posts.) Of course you're right. DB |
| Thanqol09-12-06, 12:53 AM | The amount of gods. I rolled a D% to chose one for my cleric. |
| The Ubbergeek09-12-06, 01:12 AM | The amount of gods. I rolled a D% to chose one for my cleric. A god at RANDOM? Won't be easy to roleplay. Read about them ask for help, there is a LOT of cool gods around. Yoiu realise that FR (and GH) have LESS gods than many a polythestic system belief of real earth? |
| Beckett09-12-06, 03:06 AM | The first post was what I generally dislike about playing in FR. In all of my experiences, nearly every DM I have played under in FR always tries to pull out Eleminister, or Blackstaff, or someone like that. The second was generally what I dislike/hate when I run the game. Based on roughly what I know about the demographs and the number of Deitites in FR comarred to the number of PC's that play Cleric, I suspect world wide, each Deitiy has approxametly 10-15 cleric worshippers. Personally, I think the best option would be to publish maybe 1 or 2 Campaign setting books per setting, a year, and begin encouraging home-made campign worlds. |
| Beckett09-12-06, 03:08 AM | I am not trying to be angry or obtuse, I just disagree heavily with "official" D&D options and FR is, in many ways, a jetsetter. |
| Ranger REG09-12-06, 04:51 AM | The first post was what I generally dislike about playing in FR. In all of my experiences, nearly every DM I have played under in FR always tries to pull out Eleminister, or Blackstaff, or someone like that. Heh. When I first played FR when it came out as a commercially published setting boxed set (the gray one), they didn't fully stat out the iconic characters and that's a good thing. Plus, I make it a rule not to use iconics in my setting. That's why in my Trek games, I don't let PCs have a chance encounter with Picard in the 24th Century. The game is like a new TV series and the PCs are the main cast of characters. Fast-forward to now and I'm seeing young'uns wanting this and that crunch. Sad. :nonono: |
| dizfactor09-12-06, 05:39 AM | Exactly. If there was a 'major force of evil' in the Realms, what would happen to its feel when said character was killed in a novel or in a DM's campaign? The entire storyline crumbles, and all sense of drama is lost. And then, like in any unimaginative TV series that has gone on too long, a NEW, BIGGER, BADDER! Evil! comes up the next season.... The Realms is more realistic than that (in many ways). It's not made to shove a single plotline down your throat. It's made to be a world in which you can set your own plots. I agree. I think one of the strongest aspects of the FR is the lack of a single, epic storyline, while still maintaining a number of solid adversaries. When I got the 1st edition boxed set, the marquee villain factions seemed to be the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards of Thay, each of whom could serve as the focus of a major campaign but neither of whom totally dominated the setting like your Generic Evil Overlord. (And when I say Generic Evil Overlord, I mean Sauron, because, let's face it, Takhisis is Sauron in drag, and pretty much every other major epic setting is LotR changed enough to satisfy copyright but similar enough to attract the legions of goobers who just want more of the same.) And, frankly, as much as everyone hates/loves Drizzt or Elminster or anyone else, there's no reason at all your group ever has to run into them. Ever. OK, sure, if your campaign is based strictly in Shadowdale, they're going to see Elminster, and if they're running around in the North it's likely they will at least have heard of Drizzt, but, really, it's a big setting. Stick them somewhere else. Semphar's pretty cool, or Damara, or Amn. After decades of development, you could throw a dart at the FR map and hit someplace with enough info to develop your own campaign. That said, here are the things I don't like about the Realms: 1) The constant changes as the setting rolls forward. Enough, already. It's like trying to keep up with the X-Men or some other superhero comics franchise. "Oh, no, that's all totally different now in the wake of Civil Crisis of Infinite Doomsdays" Bleh. 2) The bland and not terribly cohesive mythology. There's basically one sprawling human pantheon, which seems to be cobbled together out of interesting individual deities either made up by Ed Greenwood and the later FR developers or cherry-picked from 1st edition Deities and Demigods (ooh, that looks like a good ranger deity from the Finnish pantheon, and that Norse god looks like he'd be good for paladins...). Then we have the nonhuman pantheons co-existing awkwardly with that. I don't mind having a lot of gods, but I would like it better if they seemed to have more organic relationships with each other, and I would like it if it didn't just seem like every deity was put in there for the purposes of finding a god for every character class and alignment, rather than because this seems to be the sort of deities a functioning society would need to worship. Also, the gods meddle too much in the setting, and are not only too accessible to mortals as individuals, but godhood itself seems a little too accessible. The gods also seem to be a little... pedestrian. They kind of seem like RPG characters blown up to a ridiculous scale, still concerned with levelling up (ooh, now I'm an Intermediate Deity!) and taking on new prestige classes (oops, I mean portfolios). 3) Related to #2, the awkward analogues of specific real-world cultures which have been shoehorned into the setting over time. 'Nuff said. 4) The awkward level of magic usage. On some levels, magic is ubiquitous and reliable, but at the same time we still have this pseudo-medieval society. Look, at some point, if magic is common enough, magic=technology. We should start to see magical equivalents of 1600s-1800s technological developments (steam power, printing presses, etc), and the social structures should start to change accordingly. The old Mystara/Known World setting had a few areas where this was taken to the logical next step (Glantri and Alphatia), and Eberron does it pretty much perfectly now. Basically, I want a fantasy setting that is either very low magic (like the Conan RPG or Iron Heroes), where magic still has that "oooh! aaah!" mystery about it (and where our suspicious barbarian PCs are more likely to simply run the foul sorcerer through with good honest steel and be done with it rather than dabble themselves), or where it's really common, and we see that reflected in the "technology level" with things like, oh, say, trains, and flying castles, and servitor races like the warforged, etc. The middle ground that FR occupies on that scale really both bores and irritates me. It seems like logic and common sense are bent to preserve this facade of a pseudo-medieval social order, which is doubly irritating because I generally find medieval Europe to be one of the least interesting fictional settings imaginable, and one of the hardest to square with the needs of a fantasy RPG. Give me a pre-Christian Conan-esque setting, or an early modern "magi-tech" one, but nothing in between. 5) Related to #4, the awkward balance between a crazy assortment of new playable races, and a lingering attachment to the classic Tolkien races (elves, dwarves, hobbits/halflings), and the thinly-veiled racist subtext inherent in that (orcs and the like as subhuman savages, etc). First of all, I hate Tolkien. Passionately. I know people are attached to the Tolkien races, but I really hate playing a LotR knockoff. I was one of the people who really rallied behind the ad slogan for the Talislanta game setting: NO ELVES. I can get behind that sentiment, but even so, I know players sometimes want the familiar, and elves and the like are the comfort food of FRPGs. The reasonable compromise is to keep them in, but add so many other options that they're only a handful of choices out of many. FR kind of does that, but balances it out so that while PCs technically can play weird stuff, if you play anything other than one of the core races, everyone in the setting treats you like a huge freak. I'd rather have an all-human setting than that. Also, I feel uncomfortable with settings where any species of sentients is portrayed as inherently aligned with the forces of evil or barbaric to the point of being subhuman. Any setting that treats orcs and goblins as "worse" than elves or dwarves, even sort of offhandedly, is right out. -------- Overall, the Realms has a lot of good things to recommend it, but it kind of gets dragged down by being too tied to the boring expectations of people too attached to the trappings of "classic" D&D settings: the pseudo-medieval knights-and-kings-and-such European focus with a few cariactures of non-Euro "ethnic" settings, the pseudo-Tolkien stuff, and the weird balance between magic being common enough to be convenient but not really integrated as the substitute for technology. It's OK, but to seriously hamstrung to be great. For reference, FRPG settings that are, in my opinion, great: Dark Sun, Talislanta, Eberron, Planescape. |
| GothicDan09-12-06, 02:53 PM | (ooh, that looks like a good ranger deity from the Finnish pantheon, and that Norse god looks like he'd be good for paladins...). Ed actually chose to include Mielikki and Tyr, primarily to show that cross-pollination between Abeir-Toril and other Prime worlds (or whatever he called them before TSR put it in Realmspace, and put Realmspace in the Prime Material Plane) did indeed occur. :) 4) The awkward level of magic usage. On some levels, magic is ubiquitous and reliable, but at the same time we still have this pseudo-medieval society. Look, at some point, if magic is common enough, magic=technology. We should start to see magical equivalents of 1600s-1800s technological developments (steam power, printing presses, etc), and the social structures should start to change accordingly. The old Mystara/Known World setting had a few areas where this was taken to the logical next step (Glantri and Alphatia), and Eberron does it pretty much perfectly now. I agree with some of this; specific areas would indeed have more widespread magical 'tech,' so to speak, but Ed made it pretty clear that TSR wanted Faerun to be their 'Western European Medieval-ish setting,' and promptly tossed out his other original continents and even entire regions. Ed makes it clear that in reality, there is a great disparity in levels of magic and technology from one region to the next, which makes a lot of sense, given how utterly limitless magic is, yet how dangerous and destructive it can be at the same time. Magic let Netheril rise to height of widespread magic that puts Eberron to shame... And it destroyed the entire civilization, too. Even in real life, the Dark Ages were far behind technologically speaking in many ways compared to Classical cultures, due to civilizations following apart. Technology isn't totally progressive, and Faerun shows that. On the other hand, areas of high magic that have not been readily destroyed or disrupted do show some level of magical 'tech' - Halruaa, Thay, and the Elves, off the top of my head. In one of Ed's replies, he told us about Elven Lighthouses, which are keyed to specific Elven Noble families; lighthouses that send out invisible pulses of energy to only those who are keyed to receive them, and the like. This is a fantastic example of 'magic tech,' and there are probably others in the Realms, where appropriate, that never saw print because they went against TSR's (distorted) ideas of what the Realms 'should be,' or they aren't immediately 'useful' (that is, in combat) to gamers. |
| Thanqol09-12-06, 10:51 PM | A god at RANDOM? Won't be easy to roleplay. Read about them ask for help, there is a LOT of cool gods around. Yoiu realise that FR (and GH) have LESS gods than many a polythestic system belief of real earth? A god at random was what I originally went with. Then I had a change of heart. I decided to worship the Human Pantheon as a whole! :D That was about 2,500gp to get a silver holy symbol of *every single* diety. But it'll be worth it. But that character's odd in his own way. I bet no one's ever done this before. And for the point of it having less gods than a real religeon - so what? Because reality is confusing, the game should be too? Why not keep it relatively streamlined? And have the gods having interaction with each other? The Norse pantheon was all a big family... and I might be ignorant, but I don't see what, say, Kossuh and Cyric have to do with each other. |
| GothicDan09-12-06, 11:00 PM | Because the Realms isn't anything close to a single cohesive culture. Before the printing of the Eddas, the Norse gods weren't nearly as 'unified' into a single 'pantheon,' and had contradicting myths and legends and origins. Some worshipped Thor as the supreme god, others worshipped Odin; the Wotan of the Germanic tribes had a more militant aspect, while that of the Norse tribes was more about mystery and knowledge. Heck, the 'Norse gods' themselves were a smashed-together group, made up of the more warlike Aesir and the more peacable Vanir. So, no, even the Norse pantheon wasn't really 'one big family' so to speak. It was fractitious and like any other mythology, it contradicted itself and didn't make much sense at all. Homer did the same thing with the Olympians. Technically, there's only 9 Olympians, according to his works. Kossuth and Cyric? Well, they both happen to have worshippers in Faerun! |
| Thanqol09-12-06, 11:13 PM | Because the Realms isn't anything close to a single cohesive culture. Before the printing of the Eddas, the Norse gods weren't nearly as 'unified' into a single 'pantheon,' and had contradicting myths and legends and origins. Some worshipped Thor as the supreme god, others worshipped Odin; the Wotan of the Germanic tribes had a more militant aspect, while that of the Norse tribes was more about mystery and knowledge. Heck, the 'Norse gods' themselves were a smashed-together group, made up of the more warlike Aesir and the more peacable Vanir. But they have classifications! There are warlike gods, and they're called Aesir, and there are the peaceful gods of fertility ect, and they're called Vanir! All the gods were decended from Ymir, and his three sons. Because they were worshipped in different ways, with different ones at the head of the family, means that they were *still* connected. There were people who saw Odin as the god of Death, and people who saw Odin as the god of nobility - they didn't make *another* god for each of these aspects of Odin. He was still Odin. So, no, even the Norse pantheon wasn't really 'one big family' so to speak. It was fractitious and like any other mythology, it contradicted itself and didn't make much sense at all. Homer did the same thing with the Olympians. Technically, there's only 9 Olympians, according to his works. Kossuth and Cyric? Well, they both happen to have worshippers in Faerun! It contradicted itself, but it remained constant. The gods were married to the godesses. The gods all lived in Valhalla. The unanimous chief of the gods was Odin (exept in the germanic tribes where they venerated Thor). From my reading of the Faerun diety entrys, I could take any pair that wern't opposed dieties and in all but a few cases find no connection whatsoever. |
| Dark Wizard09-12-06, 11:36 PM | I decided to worship the Human Pantheon as a whole! :D That was about 2,500gp to get a silver holy symbol of *every single* diety. But it'll be worth it. But that character's odd in his own way. I bet no one's ever done this before. That's technically how it's supposed to be handled. Even the priests of a good deity will utter a prayer to Umberlee before sailing or to Talos when a nasty storm is brewing on the horizon. Though it is true that not every priest is the priest (holy symbol carrying member) of every god. That is odd but interesting. Likely, the character is patroned by one deity who just grants spells in general. As for classifications, the Faerunian gods are separated into blocks based on superiors and subordinates, shared allies and enemies, and alignment and portfolios: The Triad, the Gods of Fury, the Nature deities, the Gods of Magic, the former evil trio of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul, etc. The groupings are just smaller. This is likely due to the Faerunian pantheon being formed from a number of smaller pantheons. It would be like the Norse, Greek and Egyptian pantheons being merged together after several millennia of trade and cultural diffusion. You would get a big mix of gods then. Which is sort of what happened, after a while Romans started to worship a few Germanic/Norse gods, and a few gods from as far east as the Near East, which has ties to central Asia and India. Just that the level of integration in the pantheon hasn't been seen in the real world. Oh, wait, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths are tied to the same monotheistic tradition. They account for the overwhelming majority of practiced religious beliefs and the faithful of this tradition can now be found on all the continents. If such a tradition was polytheistic instead, we may ge something like the Faerunian pantheon. Technically, with all the gods being added to the Core with every supplement, Greyhawk is more of a hodge podge than FR. |
| Thanqol09-12-06, 11:56 PM | That's actually a pretty good explination, thank you :) (For the record, you guessed right - the actual god he draws his spells from is Io, because of his position of embodying all alignments). |
| Dark Wizard09-13-06, 12:05 AM | Very cool concept, sounds like the character is fun to play. |
| Ranger REG09-13-06, 12:14 AM | First of all, I hate Tolkien. Passionately. I know people are attached to the Tolkien races, but I really hate playing a LotR knockoff. I was one of the people who really rallied behind the ad slogan for the Talislanta game setting: NO ELVES. I can get behind that sentiment, but even so, I know players sometimes want the familiar, and elves and the like are the comfort food of FRPGs. The reasonable compromise is to keep them in, but add so many other options that they're only a handful of choices out of many. FR kind of does that, but balances it out so that while PCs technically can play weird stuff, if you play anything other than one of the core races, everyone in the setting treats you like a huge freak. I'd rather have an all-human setting than that. Nope. There are still elves in the Realms. :smirk: FWIW, You're not alone. I believe Tom Cruise hates Tolkien, too. Of course, I hate Tom Cruise. :devil: |
| The Ubbergeek09-13-06, 12:51 AM | Sorry, elves will stay. :D And Tom Cruise... is Tom Cruise... :P :D |
| Bladesong09-13-06, 02:34 AM | C.S. Lewis apparently had his bouts with Tolkien too. Supposedly, Lewis was so discouraged by Tolkien's criticisms of his Narnia novels that he almost decided not to get them published. |
| Beckett09-13-06, 09:59 AM | they where friends. . . |
| Bladesong09-13-06, 02:03 PM | Yes, friends get into disagreements too. ;) They were in the same bookclub or some sort. |
| boards09-13-06, 10:51 PM | The inklings. As I understand it Tolkien believed that Lewis wrote his books to quickly where as Tolkien spent the rest of his life modifying his notes on the Middle Earth. |
| KismetRose09-14-06, 03:53 PM | What I dislike most intensely are people's attitudes about the Forgotten Realms. Many folks diss on FR because of the great number of high level characters in the setting. Just because a high level character exists in the huge setting of Toril does not mean they will make one whit of difference in a given campaign, however. I have yet to find a place in the books that says: "Thou must use Drizzt, Elminster, and Manshoon (oh my!) in all of thy campaigns." Some people act as though a command has been given from on high, when it hasn't. The only commands that should matter are those given by the DM in question, since they decide ultimately what to use and who lives and who dies as far as NPCs are concerned. However, some people do seem to feel that any alteration to any of the high level characters - including the gods - means that you're "no longer playing in the Forgotten Realms." And I hate this attitude just as much, with all of my black little heart. The Forgotten Realms setting is one of the oldest, major, continual gaming settings on record. More material has been put out for the setting than you can shake a stick at, especially if you keep 2nd edition materials in mind. Ever since the beginning, though, people have been altering the Realms to suit their groups because the books are offered as resources - not straitjackets. The wealth of information is there for you to use as much as you want to, if you want to. The Forgotten Realms setting can survive the loss of characters, even gods, because it is bigger than they are - there is more to the Realms than any one character, time setting, or city. |
| Ish09-15-06, 12:16 AM | My main complaint with the Realms is the same one I have with nearly every published campaign setting, for any game: the "nothing happened until 20 years ago" syndrome. There's mounds of history, sure. However, up until the past 20 years before the campagin starts, things happen once a decade. Now, there's some "major" event once a month. Think about it in a real world comparo. We look back at history in centries long ago because they had less direct influence on the current world... i.e... Prehistoric Times ->Stone Age -> Bronze Age -> Roman and Greek Times -> Dark Ages -> Renassainse -> Exploration -> Industrial Age -> WWI -> WWII -> Cold War -> Computer Age and Moder Times As you look at that list look how closely in time the things towards the end gets. And when we look back in history for Modern Politics and how the world is we only look back the past 100 years or so... and the past 20 specifically. Just another way to look at it. And to me... the Realms signify the most classical fantasy setting in D&D. I love em! And the GM and your group can make the world fit whatever you like. In the end YOU are the controller of the realms... the books are just a start... a foundation in which to build YOUR world upon. |
| Ranger REG09-15-06, 04:18 AM | And to me... the Realms signify the most classical fantasy setting in D&D. I love em! And the GM and your group can make the world fit whatever you like. In the end YOU are the controller of the realms... the books are just a start... a foundation in which to build YOUR world upon. Really? I guess a high-magic setting can be classified as classical now that it has gone into commercial production for over 15 years. |
| GothicDan09-15-06, 12:39 PM | The world of Elric was pretty high magic, too, and that's been around for about 35-40 years, I believe. |
| Ish09-15-06, 02:30 PM | I think magic IS classical fantasy. I think of Merlin, and Dragons, and King Aurthur and the Lady of the Lake in historical lore... Viking Gods and Witchcraft To me FR is a play on all of that historical lore and myth. |
| Ranger REG09-16-06, 04:45 AM | I think magic IS classical fantasy. I think of Merlin, and Dragons, and King Aurthur and the Lady of the Lake in historical lore... Viking Gods and Witchcraft To me FR is a play on all of that historical lore and myth. But I said high-magic, meaning they have stuff that goes above the borderline of your typical baseline D&D core rules. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but it went beyond what make this world distinct from other published settings. It also boost magic for spellcasters above the D&D norm. Of course, with the debut of 3e, some of what were once FR magic have become standard D&D magic. And with Greyhawk no longer in WotC's sight, I suspect 4e may use FR as baseline D&D setting. Unless, they're leaping two steps upward to meet Eberron benchmark. Yeah, they keep raising up the power bar. |
| Derren S.09-16-06, 04:59 AM | I think magic IS classical fantasy. I think of Merlin, and Dragons, and King Aurthur and the Lady of the Lake in historical lore... Viking Gods and Witchcraft To me FR is a play on all of that historical lore and myth. I don't remember the classical Merlin to fly around and throwing fireballs one after another (which is a normal thing in D&D). If you ask me that reminds me more of DBZ then classical fantasy. |
| The Ubbergeek09-16-06, 10:41 AM | I don't remember the classical Merlin to fly around and throwing fireballs one after another (which is a normal thing in D&D). If you ask me that reminds me more of DBZ then classical fantasy. FR is not like that. Some peoples here seems to have DM that go overboard... For me, FR never had that overpower things, it was more or less the same level of magic as 'Greyhack'. And Dragonball have Qi, not magic. |
| Derren S.09-16-06, 01:03 PM | FR is not like that. The last time I looked, fly and fireball are both only 3rd level spells and in FR there are a lot of wizards who can cast such spells. And flying wizards throwing area spells is not a very uncommon tactic either. But that is no FR problem but a general D&D one. |
| Aaron L09-16-06, 02:39 PM | What bothers me is the ridiculous number of subraces, and the seeming confusion between "culture" and "subrace" that the game designers have. Its just a stupid idea, and its very badly overused. How many elven subraces are there again? Avariel I especially hate. And I dont particularly care for Mystra and the Weave. Mystra should be becoming Neutral very quickly. As a matter of her position she has to allow Evil beings to use magic just as much as she allows Good beings to, but as a Good eing how can she allow Evil to happen when she could easily stop it? Allowing Evil to occur when you could stop it is an Evil act itself. Its a contradiction that has to be addressed. She needs to shift into Neutral gear ASAP, or be forcibly shifted by AO or something. Or crack under the strain and have to be replaced. Midnight becoming Mystra was just a dirt poor idea anyway. That, and Ive never cared for gods having any place in controlling Arcane Magic. Arcane Magic is how mortals usurp the powers of the gods for themselves, they shouldnt have to rely on gods to govern it. Gods have Divine Magic, keep them out of Arcane Magic. Almost as bad as Dragonlance; how did Raistlin slay the gods when the gods grant him his magic? It doesnt make any sense. And finally the ultimate thing wrong with the Realms, the Time of Troubles. Poorly convieced, badly thought out, and horribly executed attempt at taking a metfictionall occurance (the change in game rules) and give it a game world reason. This should have never have happened and been entirely dealt with transparently. Eliminating classes is NOT done by killing the gods that govern them and saying that they all lost thier powers now! (as was done with assassins) And the books, er, well... Ill just leave that alone. Just retcon it, people can use thier minds and be flexible enough to recognize change for the better and adapt. Leaving my distaste for Second Edition aside, the change was handled very poorly, and is a wonderful example of why rules changes should be done transparantly and the game fiction should ignore the changes and act as if it had always been that way. The mind is a capable of reconciling huge differences, people. Use it. (well, I guess from all the complaining about the new cosmology, which is a vast improvement over being shoehorned into Greyhawks cosmology, that they really cant be flexible enough to accept a retcon for the better. I assume these people also drive Edsels, and have black and white televisions, because change is bad, regardless of improvements in quality.) I wouldnt care so much about the problems Ive pointed out, except that I think the Realms is a great setting (I also happen to think Greyhawk is a great setting also, as well as Eberron. Im lucky that way I guess, I can enjoy all of them). During 1E when it first came out I thought it was interesting. When 2E came oout I was quickly driven away by the "disneyfiction" of the world, the saccharine flavor of the setting was distasteful, and the rules governing the portrayel (or lack thier of) of Evil was... unfortunate. So I stopped caring and actively hated the Realms. With the advent of 3E and the release of the FRCS, I was blown away with the greatness of the setting once again. The writers had taken all the poor elements of the 2E realms, polished them ff, fitted them together with the best of the 1E flacor, and created a whole that was better than the sum of its oarts. And with every release trhey have improve on it so far. The streamlining and reconciliation of contradicting histories has been great, the detailing of the different humen ethnicities has been wonderful Races of Faerun has been almost my single favorite 3E book to date, Lost Empires nearly so) |
| JaiaDrottsingr09-16-06, 02:51 PM | The fact that it is about equivilent to the end of the Dark Ages and that I am relatively good at RPing that. |
| GothicDan09-16-06, 03:20 PM | (well, I guess from all the complaining about the new cosmology, which is a vast improvement over being shoehorned into Greyhawks cosmology, that they really cant be flexible enough to accept a retcon for the better. I assume these people also drive Edsels, and have black and white televisions, because change is bad, regardless of improvements in quality.) Way to get personal. (From a 21 year old who preferred the old cosmology vastly and likes change just fine WHEN IT'S FOR THE BETTER.) Subjectivity: learn about it. |
| Derren S.09-16-06, 03:25 PM | The problem is that WotC got cold feet, or a designer liked the old cosmology better and wrote it back in. No matter what the reason was, the FR is currently connected to both cosmology (Portal to Sigil). |
| GothicDan09-16-06, 03:26 PM | And there's also Limbo, and references to other older-cosmology elements here and there. |
| Derren S.09-16-06, 03:29 PM | Yes, total chaos like with the gods after F&P appeared. Only this time rewriting the old cosmology back in won't happen imo. |
| Francius09-16-06, 03:41 PM | What I dislike most intensely are people's attitudes about the Forgotten Realms. Many folks diss on FR because of the great number of high level characters in the setting. Just because a high level character exists in the huge setting of Toril does not mean they will make one whit of difference in a given campaign, however. I have yet to find a place in the books that says: "Thou must use Drizzt, Elminster, and Manshoon (oh my!) in all of thy campaigns." Some people act as though a command has been given from on high, when it hasn't. The only commands that should matter are those given by the DM in question, since they decide ultimately what to use and who lives and who dies as far as NPCs are concerned. However, some people do seem to feel that any alteration to any of the high level characters - including the gods - means that you're "no longer playing in the Forgotten Realms." And I hate this attitude just as much, with all of my black little heart. The Forgotten Realms setting is one of the oldest, major, continual gaming settings on record. More material has been put out for the setting than you can shake a stick at, especially if you keep 2nd edition materials in mind. Ever since the beginning, though, people have been altering the Realms to suit their groups because the books are offered as resources - not straitjackets. The wealth of information is there for you to use as much as you want to, if you want to. The Forgotten Realms setting can survive the loss of characters, even gods, because it is bigger than they are - there is more to the Realms than any one character, time setting, or city. Best post I've read in a while. After this,I could say this thread needs nothing more to be added to. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 03:45 PM | After this,I could say this thread needs nothing more to be added to. You could, but you shouldn't. DB |
| Derren S.09-16-06, 03:46 PM | The problem is that when the PCs are involved in anything which would have a bigger effect on the Realms (big city level and above) it doesn't make sense if those famous (and not so famous) high level NPCs don't appear. |
| Francius09-16-06, 03:47 PM | You could, but you shouldn't. DB Why not? Can't you see that this thread is more of the same FRealms vs Eberron under another thread title? |
| GothicDan09-16-06, 03:49 PM | Of course, then sometimes if they DO reach those levels (and remember the Realms was made in an edition when they very rarely did, since going from level 1 to level 25+ took... Well, years and years and years, maybe more than a decade), then you DO let them hob-nob, a little, with those super-level NPCs. But there's still the likes of Larloch, Aumvor, some of the Chosen, etc., that are STILL higher than them, and STILL have bigger things to worry about. And FR was also designed for the NPCs to scale levels. |
| Sapp09-16-06, 03:53 PM | And Dragonball have Qi, not magic. Minor correction. Dragonball is Japanese, not Chinese, so I think it would be standard to call it "Ki", not "Qi" or "Chi". Many folks diss on FR because of the great number of high level characters in the setting. Just because a high level character exists in the huge setting of Toril does not mean they will make one whit of difference in a given campaign, however. I have yet to find a place in the books that says: "Thou must use Drizzt, Elminster, and Manshoon (oh my!) in all of thy campaigns." Some people act as though a command has been given from on high, when it hasn't. The only commands that should matter are those given by the DM in question, since they decide ultimately what to use and who lives and who dies as far as NPCs are concerned.In that case, we need to look at WHY "Drizzt, Elminster, and Manshoon" have so much infamy that people would get this 'misconception' of the Realms, as you are suggesting. Why do some people feel 'compelled' to use the interventionist gods and epic NPCs? It's a good question, I think, because obviously, other settings also have their share of ridiculously overpowered villains and NPCs. It might not be explicit, but obviously, something's there that would garner such critiques of the Realms. While it may not affect you, because you are so much more knowledgeable on Realmslore and have used the setting forever, it could be an aspect of the setting that warrants critique. It could be an aspect that you've gotten used to over time... dulled senses, familiarity, and whatnot. Why do the Gods and NPCs seem to drown out all of the other [positive] aspects of the Realms? Let's see if we can't come up with some ideas. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 03:56 PM | The problem is that when the PCs are involved in anything which would have a bigger effect on the Realms (big city level and above) it doesn't make sense if those famous (and not so famous) high level NPCs don't appear. But that's a general problem you have with every halfway fleshed out setting that sports prominent NPCs. When the PCs do something that has a bigger effect on the Realms, their deeds won't be addressed in the next sourcebook dealing with the area, so you have to make adjustments either way, because by merely playing you change the setting anyway. DB |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 03:57 PM | Can't you see that this thread is more of the same FRealms vs Eberron under another thread title? Doesn't matter. It's a thread about personal opinions, and everybody who has one is entitled to state their dislikes about the Realms *shrugs* DB |
| GothicDan09-16-06, 04:00 PM | Or to state their opinions about other peoples' opinions. :D |
| Francius09-16-06, 04:02 PM | Doesn't matter. It's a thread about personal opinions, and everybody who has one is entitled to state their dislikes about the Realms *shrugs* DB It does matter.It's more of the same.Opinions about the Realms have been given out even on threads that didn't discuss that issue at all.And by the way,you seem to be patroling this kind of threads. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 04:03 PM | Why do the Gods and NPCs seem to drown out all of the positive aspects of the Realms? Lets see if we can't come up with some ideas. Because they're overused in the novels, I'd assume. FR players who read them may feel - consciously or subconsciously - that they portray the official, the true Realms. ("Okay, that's how it's supposed to be, I can't just contradict it IMC or it's not the Realms anymore.") And since many care for what's canon and what's not, they're somewhat shackled by what they read, beginning with their perception of the Realms. As far as non-players are concerned: Because the novels aren't RPG-only, they're the most prominent (and in many cases the only) palpable aspects of the Realms they know. DB |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 04:06 PM | It does matter.It's more of the same.Opinions about the Realms have been given out even on threads that didn't discuss that issue at all. So? And by the way,you seem to be patroling this kind of threads. In that case you seem to be patrolling them too. Anyway, they're much more interesting than "Entreri vs. Drizzt - who would win?" part XXXVII. DB |
| Sapp09-16-06, 04:10 PM | It does matter.It's more of the same.Opinions about the Realms have been given out even on threads that didn't discuss that issue at all.And by the way,you seem to be patroling this kind of threads. Threads are like that all of the time. You can't expect people not to talk about the Realms in general in a bash-fest like "Elminster Sucks". Besides, I learned a lot from that thread (from The Simbul, in particular), like how the 3 Cleric levels on Elminster actually make sense (Initiate of Mystra). She didn't manage to convince me about the Rogue and Fighter levels though. Inevitably, people will start talking about Storm Silverhand and her set of ruinous stats, and the other FR NPCs. The only reason I didn't bother making fun of the Eberron NPCs is because they are way too obviously subpar. Most of them use NPC classes... END OF DISCUSSION. FR and Eberron ARE more likely to be used as examples for discussions. I don't think you should blame on the posters, but on WotC. You can't deny that they are pretty much only support Eberron and FR. Ravenloft might rise again when the new module/CS book comes out, but I highly doubt it. It's a little hard to talk about Dark Sun when the only sources you have for it are 3rd party or older editions (about a decade old), you know? (Possibly another source of discontent vs the FR. Some people feel it is responsible for the murders of other campaign settings.) |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 04:16 PM | Ravenloft might rise again when the new module/CS book comes out, but I highly doubt it. But it's only a remake of the classic adventure, isn't it? (By the way, I don't expect to hear from Ravenloft as a setting too soon because its second discontinuation wasn't too long ago.) DB |
| Sapp09-16-06, 04:18 PM | I recall Pukunui saying that it was about 300 pages. That is enough for an entire CS sourcebook. However, like you, I highly doubt it will get off its feet. |
| The Ubbergeek09-16-06, 04:18 PM | Minor correction. Dragonball is Japanese, not Chinese, so I think it would be standard to call it "Ki", not "Qi" or "Chi". Same thing, first. It's like God. Deus, Dieu, etc... Same term, same idea, different language. Semantic. And since it was inspired much by the classic chinese tale of the Travel to the West, well... Anyway, Sapp is right. That kind of trheads always end up in teh same flamey way. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 04:22 PM | I recall Pukunui saying that it was about 300 pages. That is enough for an entire CS sourcebook. Now, that's a surprise :eek: DB |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-16-06, 04:23 PM | Anyway, Sapp is right. That kind of trheads always end up in teh same flamey way. I don't see why that should always be the case, as long as we behave like the civilized adults we are :cool: DB |
| Francius09-18-06, 02:13 PM | So? So there's no need for yet another one in these forums.Let's take it to the D&D general to spam some thread space.Here you come to talk about events in the FRealms world and not comparisons between it and Eberron. So?Couldn't you tell alone? Duh... In that case you seem to be patrolling them too. Anyway, they're much more interesting than "Entreri vs. Drizzt - who would win?" part XXXVII. With the only difference being you patrol them 24/7... Yeah,they're interesting. It's just that too much of the same gives you a nausea... |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-18-06, 02:31 PM | So there's no need for yet another one in these forums.Let's take it to the D&D general to spam some thread space.Here you come to talk about events in the FRealms world and not comparisons between it and Eberron. So?Couldn't you tell alone? Duh... As far as I can see, this thread is about what bothers people about the FR, so it doesn't deal with Eberron and does indeed belong to the FR forums. But why don't you notify a moderator of the needlessness of this thread? With the only difference being you patrol them 24/7... Wow, for some curious reason you seem to know my posting habits better than I do. However, nobody makes you read what you don't want to read. DB |
| Francius09-20-06, 02:30 PM | As far as I can see, this thread is about what bothers people about the FR, so it doesn't deal with Eberron and does indeed belong to the FR forums. But why don't you notify a moderator of the needlessness of this thread? Can't you see that even if it has another title,it bears the same FRealms vs Eberron spirit? So,coming back at what I posted earlier,this thread could be very well over then and there with that post I commented. Wow, for some curious reason you seem to know my posting habits better than I do. DB You know,it's not hard to tell.Every time I enter even to simply read an FRealms vs Eberron thread,I find that you 've already posted there.... |
| Sapp09-20-06, 02:46 PM | Francius, Dexter_Blacktyde has done much to defend the FR, and has argued very well on its behalf, and even convinced me on many points. He isn't a terrible person just because he doesn't mind reading some criticisms (and voicing his suggestions). |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-20-06, 02:47 PM | Can't you see that even if it has another title,it bears the same FRealms vs Eberron spirit? Curious. On pages 4 and 5 nobody but you talked about Eberron. You might want to check up on that. Maybe you don't have a problem with people comparing the settings, but with people criticizing the FR? Anyway, apart from us no one's posting here anymore, so you got your wish *shrug* You know,it's not hard to tell.Every time I enter even to simply read an FRealms vs Eberron thread,I find that you 've already posted there.... Uh-huh. So? Dexter_Blacktyde has done much to defend the FR, and has argued very well on its behalf, and even convinced me on many points. He isn't a terrible person just because he doesn't mind reading some criticisms (and voicing his suggestions). Thanks :) DB |
| Bladesong09-20-06, 10:49 PM | Draaaamaaaaa. Anyway, the point of this thread was to voice your opinions on the matter and have other people voice their opinions on that in a logical, mature, and coherent manner. Replies shouldn't be voicing what appears to be a personal vendetta or annoyance. |
| KismetRose09-21-06, 01:19 PM | Best post I've read in a while. After this,I could say this thread needs nothing more to be added to. Thank you. :) But I think this is a thread people need to get some steam off their chest like I did, and sometimes while doing so a gamer might think of something new or think of a new solution. That, and folks want to talk, which is why they come here. :) |
| KismetRose09-21-06, 01:41 PM | In that case, we need to look at WHY "Drizzt, Elminster, and Manshoon" have so much infamy that people would get this 'misconception' of the Realms, as you are suggesting. Why do some people feel 'compelled' to use the interventionist gods and epic NPCs? It's a good question, I think, because obviously, other settings also have their share of ridiculously overpowered villains and NPCs. Honestly, I think people feel compelled to use them because they are advertised in different forms: some books have information about them, other books have stats for them, yet other books are written about their exploits. (Maybe part of the reason that people complain is that they are like celebrities: we see them too much, and they're written so big that they appear ridiculous.) And a good number of people seem to have the notion that if it's written in a gaming book it's gospel, never to be altered but always to be followed. That attitude is not exclusive to players of the Realms, but as I was trying to get across in my last post, my biggest problem with the Realms isn't the Realms at all. While it may not affect you, because you are so much more knowledgeable on Realmslore and have used the setting forever, it could be an aspect of the setting that warrants critique. It could be an aspect that you've gotten used to over time... dulled senses, familiarity, and whatnot. I have only used the setting for three years and in that time I've picked up what I could, which is only the merest fraction of what's out there. Obviously this affects me in some fashion since I chose to issue my own complaint in this thread. Over time I've read these boards and seen such attitudes a lot, and in coming up against them I find I have to deal with them. Why do the Gods and NPCs seem to drown out all of the other [positive] aspects of the Realms? Let's see if we can't come up with some ideas. Many of these NPCs are projected as being positive aspects of the Realms - Drizz't, Mystra, and others are do-gooders. Quite a few of them are large aspects of the setting, like Mystra being the gatekeeper of magic and the manifestation of the Weave itself. To kill her, supposedly, is to kill all magic on Faerun, a heavily magic world. In this way, she has been made indispensible, a fixture, a support pillar, and people are wary of fiddling with such things. And it takes work to take something out and fill in the gaps well, so that the setting is consistent and everything makes sense. |
| Mirtek09-24-06, 04:48 PM | "Currently": Simply too much realmshacking events. STOP IT WOTC, PLEASE STOP IT NOW. Events of this magnitude are already too much if they happen once per year, you don't need a RSE to write a good and entertaining novel. |
| MerrikCale09-24-06, 09:42 PM | "Events of this magnitude are already too much if they happen once per year, you don't need a RSE to write a good and entertaining novel. quite the contrary |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-25-06, 08:41 AM | quite the contrary Care to elaborate? DB |
| Beckett09-25-06, 12:54 PM | In my opinion, nothing really changes in FR, it just seems to. Or rather it seems like it is heading that way, then at the last minute, it all goes back to normal. The whole world moves on and pretty much forgets. (War of the Spider Quenns, anyone. . .) Seriously, when is the last time anyone did anything, besides in some vague history line, that not only changed the world, but also changed the rules for the world? I say that becuase it represents both the in and out of game aspects. I see many constants in FR, but little inovation as far as storyline or plot. Drow=evil, unless they are ranges with two scimitars of coarse., many many uber/stupid wiazrds, underdark, undead dragons, blah blah blah. So when does the prophecy of the dragons come true, dispight that it is known to have been misread, and shake the worlds foundations? When does some off Mystra and magic does not change at all. When does Bane kill Ao, and almost take his place? |
| Alediran09-25-06, 03:01 PM | One example of that is the end of dracorages, there will be no more. You have the resurrection of Myth Drannor (one of the most popular "dungeons"), the resurrection of another elven city of ancient times. The profecy of dragons will never happen, because its false. Magic without Mystra will never work, magic and the first Mystra were born together. AO is an overpower, in Realmspace he can do and undo anything he wants, even make or destroy gods, Bane is a little worm compared to him. FR is not WoD. Here, things are in a cosmic balance, by the decree of Lord AO. Faerûn is not a dying world like the WoD's Earth (something I particulary hate about the setting, and the your Character gets killed at the end of the story almost 99% percent of the time, you can't never do anything meaningfull, unlike D&D). |
| Derren S.09-25-06, 05:17 PM | One example of that is the end of dracorages, there will be no more. You have the resurrection of Myth Drannor (one of the most popular "dungeons"), the resurrection of another elven city of ancient times. The profecy of dragons will never happen, because its false. Magic without Mystra will never work, magic and the first Mystra were born together. AO is an overpower, in Realmspace he can do and undo anything he wants, even make or destroy gods, Bane is a little worm compared to him. FR is not WoD. Here, things are in a cosmic balance, by the decree of Lord AO. Faerûn is not a dying world like the WoD's Earth (something I particulary hate about the setting, and the your Character gets killed at the end of the story almost 99% percent of the time, you can't never do anything meaningfull, unlike D&D). The profecy is correct, just translated wrong. Not dead dragon will rule, but dragons (and everythign else wil be dead). And magic does work without Mystra (Shadow Weave). Also EoD and FR has one thing in common, You can never do anything meaningfull. The FR is static. Sure the dracorage ended but does this have an effect on teh realms? No. Everything is still the same as before. |
| Beckett09-26-06, 07:03 AM | You believe that because FR says so. The point is, what if one day Mystrta dies, and there is no heir to the oh so needed 'weave', but then the world discovers it was all a lie, magic is just fine, like in any other world. |
| Alediran09-26-06, 09:33 AM | 1) Because it was stated that Magic = Mystra. Without Mystra you loose not only the spells of spellcasters (all of them, IIRC Ed said that without the Weve, the Shadow Weave would colapse too and I prefer this posibility because it is more logical), but all that was created with the help of magic. If you've read Netheril's Fall you will see that in the minutes that no godess of magic existed, magic ceased to work, people who used magic to sustain their lives died, the Netherese enclaves fell to the ground. In the ToT when Mystra was forced to become mortal, magic in all of Toril worked badly, like a big Wild Magic Area, and when she was killed by Helm, it only got worse, the only one who could work magic without problems was Midnight, who had the escence of Mystra with her. With just those two events you have unquestionable evidence that without Mystra, not only magic is destroyed, but also the world will be in terrible danger. 2) In FR YOU can do meaningfull things, you can build a kingdom (there is plenty of room free), you can research new ways of magic that will last for the rest of history, you can become a legend (like Karsus, Halaster or others), you can destroy ancient evils long forgotten (try that in WoD and you only get fried, I know it from personal experience in Mage: the Crusade, with a Hermetic Master of Forces I had for a year and half), there are countless organizations where you can enter, work in it and advance in rank, and who knows, maybe you could be one of the High Ranking Harpers, or you could overthrow Fzoul and enjoy the results, unlike in WoD where you basicaly became a target to the rest of the world, even your fellow players, and especialy in Vampire (how I hate that). |
| Sapp09-26-06, 04:38 PM | What would happen to FR arcane casters who left the Realms for Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, or Eberron, where magic doesn't have to depend on a single monolithic, interactive, personified entity? Shemeska once said that they'd stop having to depend on Mystra. I like her point of view. |
| Derren S.09-26-06, 04:44 PM | YOu don't even have to leave the FR cosmology. The only plane which depends on Mystra for magic is the material plane (Toril). All other planes have their own source of magic. |
| Beckett09-27-06, 09:17 AM | SO anyone else goes to F.R., they do not use the weave but still get magic just fine. Anyone from F.R. goes outside F.R. they have absolutlly no spellcasting power. They never trained in the real stuff after all, just some stupid weave crap. Yah, the weave is magic!!! By the way, there was magic before the weave was invented, according to the 3.0 F.R. campaign guide. Like I said, it is what they tell you, not what has to be true. |
| Alediran09-27-06, 10:23 AM | SO anyone else goes to F.R., they do not use the weave but still get magic just fine. Anyone from F.R. goes outside F.R. they have absolutlly no spellcasting power. They never trained in the real stuff after all, just some stupid weave crap. If anybody from other world enters Toril, they are automatically pluged to the weave and all what it means. If a FR spellcaster went to another world, their magic will function perfectly, the difference in Toril is that the source and ways of magic depend of a goddess to work because it's too much dangerous and chaotic to leave unattended. And if a spellcaster of Toril or other world enters Azeroth and employ magic like usual they will be corrupted by the Burning Legion, if they went to Dark Sun, their magic will help into the destruction of the world. If they went to Krynn, they will be under the rule of the triplets. By the way, there was magic before the weave was invented, according to the 3.0 F.R. campaign guide. Like I said, it is what they tell you, not what has to be true. It's called Raw Magic, but not even the best arcane spellcasters can tap it without being destroyed by it's sheer power. The Weave and Shadow Weave are the conduits that spellcasters use to safely employ magic, that is why they are so important. Only the Chosens of Mystra with their Silver Fire and the Spellfire of Shandril and others taps directly into the Raw Magic. |
| The Ubbergeek09-27-06, 01:30 PM | FR and Eberron ARE more likely to be used as examples for discussions. I don't think you should blame on the posters, but on WotC. You can't deny that they are pretty much only support Eberron and FR. Ravenloft might rise again when the new module/CS book comes out, but I highly doubt it. It's a little hard to talk about Dark Sun when the only sources you have for it are 3rd party or older editions (about a decade old), you know? (Possibly another source of discontent vs the FR. Some people feel it is responsible for the murders of other campaign settings.) Nah...The only setting it could have kileld is Greyhawk. And his underdetailled, less fleshed out and lively nature brought it';s fate upon it. For Dragonlance, I daresay teh HEAVY changes who started with Dragons of Summer Flamme, who turned off some fans (like me). And the others who died did because of Grehawk-like causes (Mystara) and/or because there was too much settings for business to make them live all. Or they where planed just for a time. |
| The Ubbergeek09-27-06, 01:32 PM | SO anyone else goes to F.R., they do not use the weave but still get magic just fine. Anyone from F.R. goes outside F.R. they have absolutlly no spellcasting power. They never trained in the real stuff after all, just some stupid weave crap. Yah, the weave is magic!!! By the way, there was magic before the weave was invented, according to the 3.0 F.R. campaign guide. Like I said, it is what they tell you, not what has to be true. And as she said, it's a bit ridiculous to say this 'weave crap, when other settings have rules on magic, like the rules of teh Three Moon Gods in Dragonlance. Hypocritical rather. |
| Francius09-27-06, 01:51 PM | Curious. On pages 4 and 5 nobody but you talked about Eberron. You might want to check up on that. Maybe you don't have a problem with people comparing the settings, but with people criticizing the FR? Again,you may not have noticed that this thread turned out as an indirect attack to the FRealms from some Eberron trolls since you may have not also noticed that there are currently 4 or 5 threads trying to take shòts at our beloved setting...Re-read the first 3 pages of the current thread to find it out. Anyway, apart from us no one's posting here anymore, so you got your wish *shrug*? Well,after I responded to that other guy whose thread I found interesting it was you who bùtted in and told me this thread should continue instead of what I 'd prefer. I think I'm happy that stupid double edged theads like that will eventually come to an end. Uh-huh. So? So I would conceil you to go and fill your time with something better than annoying everyone with posts full of fake "good criticism" towards the Realms when it's obvious you're pretending to be an FR gamer yet you critic the setting based on false and dogmatic opinions(like when you said the Realms are patchwork). |
| Fabius Maximus09-27-06, 04:43 PM | Sorry if this is getting a bit personal, but I feel it has to be said (or rather written). Again,you may not have noticed that this thread turned out as an indirect attack to the FRealms from some Eberron trolls since you may have not also noticed that there are currently 4 or 5 threads trying to take shòts at our beloved setting...Re-read the first 3 pages of the current thread to find it out. [...] So I would conceil you to go and fill your time with something better than annoying everyone with posts full of fake "good criticism" towards the Realms when it's obvious you're pretending to be an FR gamer yet you critic the setting based on false and dogmatic opinions(like when you said the Realms are patchwork). I wonder who argues from a dogmatic position here. You sound like some religious fanatic defending his "ultimate truth". And you sound a bit paranoid when writing about "Eberron trolls taking shots at our beloved setting". It's just a game. If you can't take any critique about a freaking game, you are too immersed in it and should stop playing, IMO. |
| Gellion09-27-06, 07:42 PM | I am not too fond of the Seven Sisters, cant say exactly why, they just bug me. |
| Bladesong09-27-06, 10:11 PM | I'm not an Eberron troll... I don't even like Eberron... |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-27-06, 10:41 PM | So I would conceil you to go and fill your time with something better than annoying everyone... As long as I'm only annoying fanatical fanboys, I shall be content. ... with posts full of fake "good criticism" towards the Realms when it's obvious you're pretending to be an FR gamer yet you critic the setting based on false and dogmatic opinions(like when you said the Realms are patchwork). Whatever you say. For the sake of all of us I sincerely hope you're done telling people what to do with their time. But yeah, all right, after having read your terribly objective and factual posts in this thread and others, I agree that the FR are beyond doubt the greatest thing ever™, even greater than democracy or sliced bread. Those who don't like them or even only parts of them eat little children for breakfast and are intellectually only one step above common earthworms. Comparing the greatest thing ever™ to vastly inferior settings or even criticizing it is strictly forbidden, offenders are to be taken into the woods and shot immediately. I agree on all of these points. Happy now? The Wicked Witch of the West(ern Heartlands) ~ proudly poisoning the minds of gamers since the Realms' inception ~ |
| miscellany09-28-06, 01:53 AM | Hmmm.........not much to complain about from me. I think Realms spells could be less nerfed up by game designers. There should be some better editing in the new sourcebooks. Seems like spellcheck got out of hand in some of them. I would like to see more about travel and caravans. We don't get lightening rails in the Realms so I want to learn more about how caravans work and how all the goods on the goods map in the Campaign Setting get from A to B. You know like how many guards per wagon, the kinds of mounts used, are there caravans that fly or travel undergound and if there is how do they work as a team and what are they carrying? I would like to see names for trading costers even if they are reprints from older books that are updated to the current timeline. I think they should print treasure tables for what cargo treasure a character can find and include a small adventure or two in a Caravans of the Realms kind of product. |
| Sapp09-28-06, 04:25 AM | SO anyone else goes to F.R., they do not use the weave but still get magic just fine. Anyone from F.R. goes outside F.R. they have absolutlly no spellcasting power. They never trained in the real stuff after all, just some stupid weave crap. Yah, the weave is magic!!! By the way, there was magic before the weave was invented, according to the 3.0 F.R. campaign guide. Like I said, it is what they tell you, not what has to be true. Really? That can't be true. Perhaps Mystra's weave is simply something born into native Faerunians. That would be so lame if they couldn't visit Sigil without losing their arcane power. Perhaps the weave can be stretched as those powerful enough try to leave the Realms, they stretch and pull a part of the weave with them. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 05:07 AM | A Wizard going from FR to any other Crystal Sphere has to obey all laws of magic common to those Crystal Spheres. A Wizard going to the Elemental Plane of Fire will not be able to cast Water spells; a Wizard going to Elysium will not be able to cast spells with blatantly Evil uses. All planes have specific laws that apply to magic cast on them. The Weave is just the manifestation of Realmspace's own laws. |
| Beckett09-28-06, 08:22 AM | And as she said, it's a bit ridiculous to say this 'weave crap, when other settings have rules on magic, like the rules of teh Three Moon Gods in Dragonlance. Hypocritical rather. That is the whole point, really. You see, especially in Dragonlance, Wizards, must train themselves for years to understand the mysteries of the Arcane. But what it really comes down to is what do they sacrafice for their magic. Sorcerers on the other hand, steal their energies from the world around them, and even themselves. It is something ambient to all worlds, what was left over from the creation of all things, and replenishes itself all the time, so as not to ever run out. So you take a Wizard or a sorcerrer from Dragonalance, who teleports to F.R., they do not lose the ability to call upon the energies of their own soul or the magic from the world around them on, but rather become the only people in F.R. who can do that. Just because F.R. has a bigger fan base does not in any way mean that either logic get thrown out the door or it's rules supercede all others. Greyhawk actually has very similar rules, for Wizards at least. On the other hand, all Wizards and Sorcerers from F.R. do not study magic. Rather they study how to manipulate the Weave. The Weave is not magic. If you want to say that then at least say the more true, "the Weave is Toril's magic". Those Arcane casters have no idea how to use magic, just the Weave, and that does not exist, so they have no magical power. Now on the same note, if they went to Dragonlance, they would not have to "convert" to the Three gods of magic. They would be considered renegads and hunted down and killed, but except for the weave thing from above, would still be able to use magic. |
| Beckett09-28-06, 08:23 AM | Darksun has unique, but a similar concept towards arcane magic as DL's Sorcerer, Ravenloft has the most traditional D&D explanation, Not sure about Planescape, and a few others, but I am pretty sure that there is no Weave. |
| Beckett09-28-06, 08:25 AM | Just because F.R. has a bigger fan base does not in any way mean that either logic get thrown out the door or it's rules supercede all others. Honestly, when it comes right down to it, that is probably the number one reason I dislike F.R. |
| Yakostovian09-28-06, 08:58 AM | Probably been said already, but since I am not about to read 5 pages of complaining about Mystra and the Weave. I still feel that my opinion may be valued by someone. (Egotistical? YES) The sheer number of Deities. Why can't they have about 50-100 less? |
| Beckett09-28-06, 09:03 AM | One hundred percent agree. Or atleast leave that many out of nearly every book as lesser, nearly unknown deities. |
| Alediran09-28-06, 09:41 AM | That is the whole point, really. You see, especially in Dragonlance, Wizards, must train themselves for years to understand the mysteries of the Arcane. But what it really comes down to is what do they sacrafice for their magic. Sorcerers on the other hand, steal their energies from the world around them, and even themselves. It is something ambient to all worlds, what was left over from the creation of all things, and replenishes itself all the time, so as not to ever run out. So you take a Wizard or a sorcerrer from Dragonalance, who teleports to F.R., they do not lose the ability to call upon the energies of their own soul or the magic from the world around them on, but rather become the only people in F.R. who can do that. Just because F.R. has a bigger fan base does not in any way mean that either logic get thrown out the door or it's rules supercede all others. Greyhawk actually has very similar rules, for Wizards at least. On the other hand, all Wizards and Sorcerers from F.R. do not study magic. Rather they study how to manipulate the Weave. The Weave is not magic. If you want to say that then at least say the more true, "the Weave is Toril's magic". Those Arcane casters have no idea how to use magic, just the Weave, and that does not exist, so they have no magical power. Now on the same note, if they went to Dragonlance, they would not have to "convert" to the Three gods of magic. They would be considered renegads and hunted down and killed, but except for the weave thing from above, would still be able to use magic. Read my post in the page before this, I have already explained how it works. P.S: just so you lear and never forget: IF a SPELLCASTER from any other CRYSTAL SPHERE enters REALMSPACE, they are AUTOMATICALLY subject to the use of Mystra's Weave, yo DO NOT become the only one who can do the things you did when you were in Krynnspace. |
| Ateth_Istarlin09-28-06, 10:36 AM | That's how its always been - right from 1E (& poss. before?).:cool: |
| The Ubbergeek09-28-06, 11:04 AM | And what if the great quantity of gods is a plus? It sounds to me more believable, this foire of gods. Close to our world's religions and their complex pantheons. Also, popularity do not make a thing bad. Maybe it's popular because it's also good? There is, after all, a limit on the crap taht you can give to fans. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde09-28-06, 11:30 AM | I've always considered the multitude of the gods a plus. Sure, it's not easy to memorize, but neither were the Greek or Roman pantheons (which were even more complex), which lends a little credibility to it, as far as credibility in regard to actual gods goes. The confusion of Llira and Leira whose names are pronounced the same seems deliberate to me, because in the real world complex matters aren't easy to get a grasp of, too. If you want, you can use only the most prominent gods, nobody forces you to use them all. If you want it to be more complex and more seemingly "realistic", you can even introduce the different names and outlooks of the gods depending on different regions. DB |
| Beckett09-28-06, 11:53 AM | Yah yah yah, we could go on with this "but no, you didn't read what I just posted. . ." crap all day. I disagree. Logically, the weave makes no sense. |
| Alediran09-28-06, 01:44 PM | Yah yah yah, we could go on with this "but no, you didn't read what I just posted. . ." crap all day. I disagree. Logically, the weave makes no sense. It makes perfect sense when you take in account both Dead and Wild Magic areas, with the weave you have a perfectly logical explanation as to why there are zones where magic doesn't work as it should. Second, it's the perfect tool to explain the conection of elves with magic, like Arylin said to Danilo in Elfshadow: Humans use the Weave, Elves are part of the Weave. Third, it makes a god of magic more important (if you don't belive me, think about how much important is Boccob in Greyhawk compared to Mystra in Forgotten Realms or the Triplets in Dragonlance) And four, it's a good way to give a poetical sense to the more permanent creations of magic like the Mythals, it's not only that you cast the spell and you are done, in every novel I've read that involves powerfull and lasting magic, it always has a nicely done description of how a Spellcaster tinkers with it. |
| Derren S.09-28-06, 01:49 PM | Second, it's the perfect tool to explain the conection of elves with magic, like Arylin said to Danilo in Elfshadow: Humans use the Weave, Elves are part of the Weave. I fail to see why elves should have a special connection to the weave considering that they aren't even native to Faerun. That elves have a special connection to magic is a myth. Their society revolves mor around the study of magic then many others which results in more wizards but that is everything. |
| Alediran09-28-06, 02:02 PM | I fail to see why elves should have a special connection to the weave considering that they aren't even native to Faerun. That elves have a special connection to magic is a myth. Their society revolves mor around the study of magic then many others which results in more wizards but that is everything. Then why Elves have the Elven High Mages? (one of the most powerfull, if not the most, styles of magic of Faerûn currently employed). Elves don't follow the Wizard's path like Humans do, they are more slow, patient and artistical in their Art, I belive that a Ghestalt Wizard/Sorcerer would do them much more justice because of their tradition. Elves may not be originaly born in Toril, but since they have lived there for thousands of years means that Toril is the native world for the elves of today (and Wood Elves are completely native to Toril), they were always conected to the source of magic that exists in the World. IIRC in one of the stories in Realms of Magic it is mentioned that wherever is magic, elves will be there too. And the conection of Elves with magic is not a myth, it's completely real. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 02:19 PM | If one utilizes solely 3E mechanics, it is a "myth." If one uses older mechanics, it is real. I really wish that rules changes didn't create such conflicts. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 02:22 PM | Yah yah yah, we could go on with this "but no, you didn't read what I just posted. . ." crap all day. I disagree. Logically, the weave makes no sense. A logical conclusion infers a certain number of previously established facts as true. Logical to you? No. Logical to many of us? Yes. Trying to explain a purely subjective opinion of something by using "logical" arguments (especially vague ones) isn't really a strong platform for debate or discussion. |
| Alediran09-28-06, 02:53 PM | If one utilizes solely 3E mechanics, it is a "myth." If one uses older mechanics, it is real. I really wish that rules changes didn't create such conflicts. Well, I'm not the perfect ruleslawyer in the world, sue me :D. I only use the rules as a base, that is why I give elves the Weapon Familiarity with any Elven Weapon (thinblade, courtblade...) and I give the posibility of the Elven empathic link to those who want to employ it, I also give elves the ability to "sense" when magic is being employed. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 02:54 PM | I modify rules to fit lore, myself. But some people do not. |
| KismetRose09-28-06, 03:03 PM | I figure it this way: the Weave is a part of the universe of Toril. When Selune and Shar had one of their Big Bad Goddess Cage Matches (tm, live on pay per view on Sigil's channel 78952), Selune threw a piece of herself at Shar, which knocked a piece off of the other goddess. Their magical energies combined to supposedly become Mystryl, a personality whose essence is the Weave. Since then others have had to pick up the job. If you just can't stand Mystra (and I really don't care for her much myself), you could say that something happens to her and another person picks up the job of maintaining and administering the Weave. Or steals the job. If you just don't like the idea of magic being associated with a god and you want magic to be its own thing, say that the Weave rebels against its keeper (she's not the original Mystryl anyway); that it has a will but less of a personality, and it wishes to be free from a warden for good. Just because the stories say that Mystryl arrived full-blown as the Weave doesn't mean that's true. No one knows what happened back then but the gods, and they don't give away all of their secrets. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 03:57 PM | Well, canon-wise, the idea that the original Mystryl was the actual embodiment of the Weave is fact - just like Chauntea literally IS Abeir-Toril. It may seem silly to some people from a modern standpoint, but maybe not so much if you consider FR as the pantheistic world it is, with very active deities. |
| Derren S.09-28-06, 04:15 PM | Then why Elves have the Elven High Mages? (one of the most powerfull, if not the most, styles of magic of Faerûn currently employed). The same reasons humans had arcanists.Training. Only the high mages survived for longer. And even in second edition I believe the explanation for High Magic was "Correllon granted it". It had nothing to do with any special weave affinity. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 04:18 PM | Hm. This thread has been most helpful, I think, in telling me what to specifically avoid in my own campaign setting. Among other things, one being: highlight the innate differences between various races more. |
| Gladi09-28-06, 04:35 PM | Bright day My pet peeve, is not enough advancing of stuff. Say there is this huge ogre army in south Amn. Say this Amn discovers and subjagtes primitive but extremely wealthy people. Say they are bringing money (not necessarily wealth) by shiploads. Now if you have mountain of gold and dangerous pet problem, what do you do? Twiddle your thumbs apparently, while your cities defect to another country. It seems to me that new releases try to not take away adventure hooks so leave them unsolved for too long (though I do not have books on person, so don't stone me to death). I liked what was done in Bloodstone lands. In your game continuity it could have been you who saved Damara. But if you missed the window of oportunity somebody else did it. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 04:56 PM | The newer material has been slaughtering adventure hooks left and right - Sammaster, Iraclyea (sp?), the Fey'ri, Myth Drannor as an adventuring site, Malkazid, the Rage of Dragons... I preferred older material where everything was written as if it was "just happening" and the timeline did not advance very rapidly. This made it feel more like we were being presented with a world rather than having plots shoved down our throats. |
| Gladi09-28-06, 05:03 PM | The newer material has been slaughtering adventure hooks left and right - Sammaster, Iraclyea (sp?), the Fey'ri, Myth Drannor as an adventuring site, Malkazid, the Rage of Dragons... I preferred older material where everything was written as if it was "just happening" and the timeline did not advance very rapidly. This made it feel more like we were being presented with a world rather than having plots shoved down our throats. But aren't several of those slaughterd hooks made up just to be slaughtered? Sammaster was presumed dead, Fey'ri were not heard about, Malkazid a footnote in history, Rage of Dragons an event and not adventure hook, Myth Drannor already being cleared up so it was just finishing of the plot. And Iraclyea?? |
| johnkretzer09-28-06, 05:04 PM | My largest problem is Mystra. Her existence doesn't make sense with the othe racial gods of magic. Either she has to get demoted or the racial dieties of magic have to become aspects of her or leave. Or maybe I missed where they explained how this is supposed to work. |
| GothicDan09-28-06, 05:06 PM | Because Mystra isn't allowed to have a bad day. If she starts, AO slaps her into submission before things get out of hand. |
| The Ubbergeek09-28-06, 06:31 PM | My largest problem is Mystra. Her existence doesn't make sense with the othe racial gods of magic. Either she has to get demoted or the racial dieties of magic have to become aspects of her or leave. Or maybe I missed where they explained how this is supposed to work. There is a thread that explained it well. She is the Weave, the mana, the base. But the others are the 'filters' for any kind of magic that you can imagine. |
| Thanqol09-28-06, 08:37 PM | Perhaps the major problem about the Divine Overload in FR is not that there's too many gods - but all these gods Actually, Physically Exist. Every last one. Thousands of them, bludging around somewhere or other, each with the power to level kingdoms. And they're kept in check by the same Elminister Problem - where if one acts, then all the other gods swoops in to stop him, and then more leap in to smack the others around while they arn't paying attention and we've got an instant Divine War. It's a cosmic game of Chicken. Who's gonna break first? EDIT: R.E. AO holding it all in check: This is simply a case of a bigger, badder guy daring someone to act first and get a smiting |
| The Ubbergeek09-28-06, 08:55 PM | AO's job is merely to watch and survey that they play nice. It's not too different from Planescape's Lady of Pain, in a way. He is a judge. |
| Thanqol09-28-06, 11:20 PM | AO's job is merely to watch and survey that they play nice. It's not too different from Planescape's Lady of Pain, in a way. He is a judge. It might be just me, but if I was an overdiety I'd find better things to do with my time :P |
| The Ubbergeek09-29-06, 12:51 AM | Well, maybe he does more... But AO is so primordial, so removed from us, I could rpobably not imagine what he do in his mamy free days, and so you. :eek: |
| miscellany09-29-06, 02:31 AM | I preferred older material where everything was written as if it was "just happening" and the timeline did not advance very rapidly. This made it feel more like we were being presented with a world rather than having plots shoved down our throats. Do not forget about the Time of Troubles! The greatest shoehorn of all that was. The novels after that did just as much then as now to shove plots down our throats like destroying Zhentil Keep. I think you have Rose Colored Glasses on Mr. Dan. |
| johnkretzer09-29-06, 02:34 AM | There is a thread that explained it well. She is the Weave, the mana, the base. But the others are the 'filters' for any kind of magic that you can imagine. So Correlon Larethian is a filter? If you take all of his worshippers in acount could fit the entire FR pantheon in his pocket is a filter. I guess if you just narrow it down I just dislike the separating the FR from standard D&D cosomolgy. I guess I liked it better when it was possible that someone from Greyhawk and someone from FR could run into each other on the planes. Proably why it is one thing I kept from second edition planescape. Which is well the clueless can believe whatever they want about the planes but the dark is this... |
| Alediran09-29-06, 08:42 AM | So Correlon Larethian is a filter? If you take all of his worshippers in acount could fit the entire FR pantheon in his pocket is a filter. I guess if you just narrow it down I just dislike the separating the FR from standard D&D cosomolgy. I guess I liked it better when it was possible that someone from Greyhawk and someone from FR could run into each other on the planes. Proably why it is one thing I kept from second edition planescape. Which is well the clueless can believe whatever they want about the planes but the dark is this... They still can, via Shadow Plane if you keep canon comsology. |
| Beckett09-29-06, 09:05 AM | Forgotten Reralms deities have nothing to do with the world, they are not at all active, and honestly, the reason that so many is a bad thing is they are so generic and lopped together, that it is absolutly pointless to have that many. Anyone know a history for Tempus. How 'bout Myrikul? What had Ilmater done in the past 3000 years worth knowing? Why does Mystra incorrectly have any Outsider HD? Who is Silvanus's worst enemy? Why? The vast majority of those deities are very weak (as in individuality-wise), and don't really serve any purpose in the world. |
| Alediran09-29-06, 09:12 AM | Forgotten Reralms deities have nothing to do with the world, they are not at all active, and honestly, the reason that so many is a bad thing is they are so generic and lopped together, that it is absolutly pointless to have that many. Anyone know a history for Tempus. How 'bout Myrikul? What had Ilmater done in the past 3000 years worth knowing? Why does Mystra incorrectly have any Outsider HD? Who is Silvanus's worst enemy? Why? The vast majority of those deities are very weak (as in individuality-wise), and don't really serve any purpose in the world. They do, you only need to think a little. Tempus is one of the native gods of Faerûn, born during the first wars between Selûne and Shar. Myrkul is one of the most famous, he's one of the Dark Three who recived their powers from Jergal who was bored by his duties, he was destroyed by Midnight in Waterdeep at the end of the novel with the same name and now resides in the crown of thorns. As I recall, Mystra doesn't have Outsider HD, but since I don't have my books here at work, I can't check it. Silvanus' worst enemy are the Gods of Fury (Malar, Talos, Umberlee, Auril, and I think I'm forgetting a couple more) And it makes perfect sense that not all Gods are all powerfull and all wise, you always need lesser gods that take care of smaller things that are important nontheless. Look at Greek Mythology and you will find gods and godesses for almost anything in the world (thunder, dead, ocenas, wisdom, wine, forgery, revenge, hunt, sun, weavers, time, space, war, messenger, love, and so on) |
| The Ubbergeek09-29-06, 10:47 AM | Do not forget about the Time of Troubles! The greatest shoehorn of all that was. The novels after that did just as much then as now to shove plots down our throats like destroying Zhentil Keep. I think you have Rose Colored Glasses on Mr. Dan. It was not that bad, really. Changes are not too bad. But yeah, somes see the past with rosey glasses.... |
| Zach8209-29-06, 01:27 PM | I will join the choir of dissatisfaction at the way deities are handled in the setting. It betrays a total lack of understanding about the nature of devotion. In FR, people worship gods primarily because they get something in return: spells. Moreover, it's a mere transaction, because the gods need worship in return. They are mere beings like any other, they just happen to be more powerful. Last, one only choses a deity because he happens to agree with that deity's outlook on the world. That is not actual worship. There is no room for faith there. One would worship Sune or Silvanus not because they like love and and the raw forces of nature. One would worship them because they ARE the forces of passionate beauty and wild nature. By worshipping them you take part in the trandscendant. You come to a deeper understanding of the truth of beauty by worshipping Sune. At least, that's how it ought to be. But that's just not part of the FR paradigm. Zach |
| Gladi09-29-06, 03:48 PM | One would worship Sune or Silvanus not because they like love and and the raw forces of nature. One would worship them because they ARE the forces of passionate beauty and wild nature. By worshipping them you take part in the trandscendant. You come to a deeper understanding of the truth of beauty by worshipping Sune. At least, that's how it ought to be. But that's just not part of the FR paradigm. Zach You meant it is not way it is written in novels. I hope that mr. Greenwood didn't every cleric of Sune to be self-indulgent. And indeed Goddess' creed is not about self-indulgency. But last people I pitched my concept of blacksmith priest of Sune looked at me really badly. |
| The Ubbergeek09-29-06, 04:54 PM | And yet, gods are still worshipped for what they are, and not mere spells. If it was just spells, why anyone would worship some fickles, dangerous gods as Talos who is known to punish faults HARD? The tradeoff is not good. |
| Gladi09-29-06, 05:31 PM | And yet, gods are still worshipped for what they are, and not mere spells. If it was just spells, why anyone would worship some fickles, dangerous gods as Talos who is known to punish faults HARD? The tradeoff is not good. Because you are either strong and then you get to punish or weak and then you get punished less. |
| Beckett09-29-06, 07:11 PM | You didn't answer any of my questions. If I whwere a Cleric of any of those deities with that kind of information, the deity would be dead from malnutrition of spiritual energy. |
| The Ubbergeek09-29-06, 08:05 PM | I think you think with an OOC gaming mind. FR is also a world. Peoples worship. They do not choose gods for spells and powers. |
| johnkretzer09-29-06, 09:12 PM | They still can, via Shadow Plane if you keep canon comsology. And be beholden to Shar if you keep canon comsology. I do by the way keep canon comsology. It just they are wrong. They are also right. But that is something confusing if you are not a planescape fan. |
| GothicDan09-29-06, 11:08 PM | Perhaps the major problem about the Divine Overload in FR is not that there's too many gods - but all these gods Actually, Physically Exist. Every last one. Thousands of them, bludging around somewhere or other, each with the power to level kingdoms. And they're kept in check by the same Elminister Problem - where if one acts, then all the other gods swoops in to stop him, and then more leap in to smack the others around while they arn't paying attention and we've got an instant Divine War. Sounds very much like our modern world, though replace Divine War with Nuclear War. |
| GothicDan09-29-06, 11:09 PM | Do not forget about the Time of Troubles! The greatest shoehorn of all that was. The novels after that did just as much then as now to shove plots down our throats like destroying Zhentil Keep. I think you have Rose Colored Glasses on Mr. Dan. Where did I exclude the Time of Troubles? Rose-Colored Glasses infers that somehow my personal experiences have perennially affected my sense of judgment. I have never played in FR, and didn't even get into it until late 2E. I wonder when my glasses had time to turn color. |
| Auburn09-29-06, 11:12 PM | Overuse of: Elves Humans Bladed melee weapons Bows Underuse of: Dwarves Gnomes Nonbladed melee weapons Ranged weapons that aren't bows Spelljamming Lack of: Monster characters Information about the other named continents and planets I'm sure there's other stuff, but that's what came to me immediately. |
| Thanqol09-29-06, 11:24 PM | Sounds very much like our modern world, though replace Divine War with Nuclear War. It may be relevant to our real world - but it's still a (IMO) boring setup where you can't do anything but preserve the status quo. |
| GothicDan09-29-06, 11:34 PM | I like it. :) But I SPECIFICALLY like that reason, so. There it is. It leads to more plotting, intrigue, and non-violent ways of getting things done. I'll also note that I like different settings for different things - basically, I accept the core themes that the settings were founded on. FR is more about realism, intrigue, and plotting; Dragonlance is more about the WORLD SHATTERING EVILS!; Planescape is about Belief = Reality... So, FR and DL are two of my favorite settings (behind PS) and are both very different from each other. But I like them both for what they are. |
| Bladesong09-30-06, 09:06 AM | Overuse of: Bladed melee weapons Underuse of: Nonbladed melee weapons Ranged weapons that aren't bows I... I don't get it... |
| The Ubbergeek09-30-06, 12:11 PM | Don't take care about it. Dwarves are quite covered well, as most as he said. But more should be told about Gnomes and Halflings, yeah... |
| Beckett10-01-06, 09:25 AM | 75% of the information should be OOC. |
| bayke10-01-06, 04:01 PM | It annoys me that 90% of the barbarians in the Realms are horse barbarians. Sure, the coastal Illuskans are Viking-like and the Uthgardt are more of the classic sword & sorcery barbarians. Then there are the jungle dwelling Chultans and the Bedine of Anaroch (sp?). But the barbarians of the Ride, Narfell, the Shaar, the Plains of Tun, & the Hordelands are all horse barbarians. I want more diversity in my barbarism. The Moonshaes have a Celtic flavor, but it's the Dark Ages/Mideval Celts. What about the pre-Christian Celts? I'm talking Cu Culainn/Cattle Raid of Cooley style Celts. Or the pre-Christian Slavs of Lithuania? |
| Gladi10-01-06, 04:42 PM | It annoys me that 90% of the barbarians in the Realms are horse barbarians. Sure, the coastal Illuskans are Viking-like and the Uthgardt are more of the classic sword & sorcery barbarians. Then there are the jungle dwelling Chultans and the Bedine of Anaroch (sp?). But the barbarians of the Ride, Narfell, the Shaar, the Plains of Tun, & the Hordelands are all horse barbarians. I want more diversity in my barbarism. The Moonshaes have a Celtic flavor, but it's the Dark Ages/Mideval Celts. What about the pre-Christian Celts? I'm talking Cu Culainn/Cattle Raid of Cooley style Celts. Or the pre-Christian Slavs of Lithuania? FR weren't made to evoke 6th century or earlier Europe. And 90% of barbarians in Realms are orcs, and those aren't horse barbarians. |
| bayke10-01-06, 07:17 PM | FR weren't made to evoke 6th century or earlier Europe. And 90% of barbarians in Realms are orcs, and those aren't horse barbarians. I meant out of the human barbarians. And the Lithuanians weren't forcibly converted to Christianity until the late Middle Ages. |
| Gladi10-02-06, 02:19 AM | I meant out of the human barbarians. And the Lithuanians weren't forcibly converted to Christianity until the late Middle Ages. Icewind Dale, Illuskani, Uthgardt, Vaasa, Rashamen (and lo behold, here you have your "Lithuania"). |
| Shade_Hunter10-08-06, 02:41 AM | What bothers me about the FR campaign is not so much the setting itself, but the slew of not-so-interesting sourcebooks that have been released lately. And details on the Dalelands, Sword Coast, Silver Marches and all those generic medieval flavoured settings have been done to death. What about a complete sourcebook on the Dragon's Coast? Who doesn't like pirates and stuff eh? Or maybe something on Kara-Tur. Dragons of Faerun was good though. |
| Lawless10-10-06, 01:24 PM | First I'll steer far away from the Drizzt issues, but I'd say my biggest criticism of FR is the overall wizard friendliness of it. Of all the epic NPC in FR 90% of them are mages the rest are sprinkled between the other classes. Though I admit I like the Companions/DD because they don't have mage among them. The number of epic NPCs doesn't bother me so much as FR deferential preference to make sure that there as few non-mages to make it to epic as possible. A higher number of epic mages is going to be expected in a high-magic setting like FR but at certain point someone should go 'OK that's enough! Someone put an epic rogue here and a monk there', or something. Mystra's overall importance, there are several other deities concerned with magic especially among the demi races. They could all share her particular portfolio to prevent anyone deity being that special. Nevermind her insanely high number of Chosen, heck an ex of mine was one for 3 years until she stopped paying her dues. The only other thing that bugs me is the focus on the northern region between Cormyr and the Sword Coast, what about the rest of the continent what's going on in the south and or eastern regions? |
| The Ubbergeek10-10-06, 03:21 PM | Sadly, peoples forget that Mystra have SERIOUS limitations on her power. If she step out of the line... AO will pimplsap her HARD. |
| Gladi10-11-06, 08:57 AM | Sadly, peoples forget that Mystra have SERIOUS limitations on her power. If she step out of the line... AO will pimplsap her HARD. Who is going to pimpslap AO then? Let us not forget that, to many people she has already stepped out of line. |
| Bladesong10-11-06, 02:28 PM | Ao does reports to a higher power, the DM, if you believe some sources, or the "True God", if you believe others. |
| MerrikCale10-11-06, 07:29 PM | What bothers me about the FR campaign is not so much the setting itself, but the slew of not-so-interesting sourcebooks that have been released lately. And details on the Dalelands, Sword Coast, Silver Marches and all those generic medieval flavoured settings have been done to death. What about a complete sourcebook on the Dragon's Coast? Who doesn't like pirates and stuff eh? Or maybe something on Kara-Tur. Dragons of Faerun was good though. I agree to some extent. First, Silver Marches was great. And I would appreciate a Sword Coast North sourcebook. But I would absolutely love a Dragon Coast and/or Kara-Tur book. And I agree the most recent sourcebooks with the possible exception of Dragons have been subpar. |
| The Ubbergeek10-12-06, 02:31 PM | Ao does reports to a higher power, the DM, if you believe some sources, or the "True God", if you believe others. And AO is NEVER devying. He Watches. He IS the Realms, maybe. Or like Helm, the Steward of the Superior.... |
| Moparfiend10-16-06, 11:42 AM | I dislike it when a DM uses major players from the books in the game.I can't seem to figure out why Elminster,Khelben,etc. would need 1st level PCs to do his dirty work for them. Also if the DM goes entirely by the books,maps or whatever, not even inserting a village or whatever on thier own because they own all the realms books and can't vary from them 1 iota.:confused: |
| Dexter_Blacktyde10-16-06, 03:38 PM | Well, that's not something that bothers you about the FR, but something that bothers you about some GMs ;) DB |
| Njord10-18-06, 10:14 AM | After seeing the debate about whether or not a FR mage could go to Sigil or Krynn and cast spells I understand why WOTC closed up the cosmology. I think my biggest complaint lately has been the use of FR as an R & D department by WOTC. "Hey we have this idea for a new sourcebook layout...lets test it in FR!" or "Hey we have this cool idea called Shades/Sharns/past evil everyone forgot...lets put them in FR" The Realms are solid so I can understand that they can handle tinkering better than a newer setting but I am disappointed that more of the existing realms have not been fleshed out or advanced. Why do we need another evil organization when the existing ones could be good enough? |
| The Ubbergeek10-18-06, 11:17 AM | It's not closed, really, just less emphased on. Mind you, they evenb stepped back on this a bit... Look, there is a Sigil there too. ;) And you know what planars can say about the missguided primes and their weird ideas about the planes... :P ;) |
| ShadezofDis10-18-06, 03:38 PM | I'd have to say that my biggest problem with the Realms is the lack of data on magics effect on commerce and government. In a world where there are bags of holding, why wouldn't major trading companies own a few? A bag of holding combined with a ring of teleportation would make for a mighty secure way to transport goods. Every city has at least a handfull of spell casters, these people aren't all advertised casters and have a few spells they can cast per day. A local politician could garner himself a ton of support with the carefull use of magic. Anyhow, that's the biggest problem I have with the setting. Basically because I'm lazy and don't want to think about all this stuff on my lonesome (which is what I have been doing but it's a hefty task) and because economics is what mainly drives the games I run. (the pc's might not ever have to deal directly with economics but the economics of the area effect the way the campaign is going, ie. If the PC's don't clear out a lair of goblins then said goblins will make road A difficult to travel, thus increasing the price of good in their area or creating a depressed populous who can't get their goods to where they need to sell them.) |
| Yakostovian10-18-06, 10:46 PM | I'd have to say that my biggest problem with the Realms is the lack of data on magics effect on commerce and government. In a world where there are bags of holding, why wouldn't major trading companies own a few? A bag of holding combined with a ring of teleportation would make for a mighty secure way to transport goods. Every city has at least a handfull of spell casters, these people aren't all advertised casters and have a few spells they can cast per day. A local politician could garner himself a ton of support with the carefull use of magic. Anyhow, that's the biggest problem I have with the setting. Basically because I'm lazy and don't want to think about all this stuff on my lonesome (which is what I have been doing but it's a hefty task) and because economics is what mainly drives the games I run. (the pc's might not ever have to deal directly with economics but the economics of the area effect the way the campaign is going, ie. If the PC's don't clear out a lair of goblins then said goblins will make road A difficult to travel, thus increasing the price of good in their area or creating a depressed populous who can't get their goods to where they need to sell them.) However, that could be said of any campaign setting. Though I am not familiar with Greyhawk and Eberron, I am sure they never state economics in as fine detail as you would prefer to run a campaign. |
| ShadezofDis10-19-06, 04:36 PM | That is very true and it does indeed bother me in add d&d products but since I focus on FR I thought I'd add it to the list ;) |
| Dark Wizard10-19-06, 05:07 PM | A similar topic about fixing D&D economics appeared on the Eberron boards recently. Most of the ideas they tossed around apply to the Realms as well. I would even say they apply to the Realms more because of the Medieval/Renaissance flavor of the setting as opposed to the mago-industrial cusp that Eberron is supposedly on the verge of. |
| ShadezofDis10-20-06, 02:21 PM | Oh noes!!! Not the Eberron boards!!!!! heh, thanks for the heads up, I'm gonna head over and check it out. |
| Mirtek10-20-06, 04:56 PM | While I already said that I would like to see much less RSEs, I also think that the novels should try harder to incoporate each other (if all these RSEs have to be done, please at least do them right). If there was a supposed RSE, it should be felt in some way in later novels. It decrades "realm-shacking" into a little "local rattling" if once the trilogy is over none lasting effect of the RSE is ever seen again in all following novels. The rage of dragons should have been a disaster for many parts of faerun (all the wyrms who were ragging "off-stage" and not part of the trilogy action) and yet the cities in the Last Mythal trilogy seem as if they have never been attacked by even the smalles wyrmling. All these wyrms who must have been raging all over the moonsea (as Sammaster couldn't have been able to collect them all) and Zhentil Keep and Hillsfar should have been lucky to survive and being busy rebuilding instead of being "like new" and able to send armies all over the dales to participate in a war which they shouldn't have the ressources left to fight it so shortly after a rage of dragons. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 02:53 AM | While I already said that I would like to see much less RSEs, I also think that the novels should try harder to incoporate each other (if all these RSEs have to be done, please at least do them right). If there was a supposed RSE, it should be felt in some way in later novels. It decrades "realm-shacking" into a little "local rattling" if once the trilogy is over none lasting effect of the RSE is ever seen again in all following novels. The rage of dragons should have been a disaster for many parts of faerun (all the wyrms who were ragging "off-stage" and not part of the trilogy action) and yet the cities in the Last Mythal trilogy seem as if they have never been attacked by even the smalles wyrmling. All these wyrms who must have been raging all over the moonsea (as Sammaster couldn't have been able to collect them all) and Zhentil Keep and Hillsfar should have been lucky to survive and being busy rebuilding instead of being "like new" and able to send armies all over the dales to participate in a war which they shouldn't have the ressources left to fight it so shortly after a rage of dragons. Amen to that. The FR novels look like a comic serie where non of what happened in the past episodes has an effect on the present. |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 02:48 PM | That's because WotC has been continuing to progress the timeline faster than it should, without taking into account events of the past (the reduction in the Elven population and power centers, for example, before the retaking of Myth Drannor). The 'timeline' should have been stopped years ago, and then followed by a series of 'what's going on now' mini-books for the different regions/cultures/races. But, no. WotC I think is focusing much more on trying to make the Realms feel "alive" and "progressing the timeline" without ever detailing the world that it's become, and the results of the RSE's. It feels almost like we're playing a video game that keeps skipping. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 03:05 PM | But, no. WotC I think is focusing much more on trying to make the Realms feel "alive" and "progressing the timeline" without ever detailing the world that it's become, and the results of the RSE's. It feels almost like we're playing a video game that keeps skipping. Imo the reason something like "making and selling as much books as possible". |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 03:11 PM | Yes. The group of people who would prefer things to stop progressing so quickly, to stop RSE's, and start detailing things as they stand... Is smaller than those who just want more and more action with no effect. So, they'll sell more books if they cater to the later market. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 03:23 PM | Yes. The group of people who would prefer things to stop progressing so quickly, to stop RSE's, and start detailing things as they stand... Is smaller than those who just want more and more action with no effect. So, they'll sell more books if they cater to the later market. Even if you stopped the timeline you could write many books as the FR is a big place. The masses seem to mainly want to read novels about Elminster, the Simbul, Mashoon and whatever epic hero and villian exists in the Fr and to use those characters you need RSE as everything else doesn't seem fitting for them (WotC opinion). |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 03:36 PM | That's because FR novels are marketed as fantasy-action. So you need Epic events, since action = combat, and combat involving such Epic characters = RSE. I'd rather read "The Day in the Life of an Elven Noble," myself. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 03:46 PM | I'd rather read "The Day in the Life of an Elven Noble," myself. It doesn't have to be that extreme. Following a Red Wizards through his intrigues in Thay, a Mercenary working in the Silver Marches or simply reading about an random adventure companyin whatever frontier country you like. All those ideas have the potential to have a interesting story and much action. But it wouldn't be Elminster and it seems that the name counts. |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 03:49 PM | It does - to a large group of fans, and thus, WotC, mostly. But not as much as Drizzt. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 03:52 PM | Or Entreri. But even for those characters you don't need RSE. |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 04:09 PM | That's because they are not as powerful as Elminster, Manshoon, etc. And, as a sort of cause of that in the first place, they're not spellcasters. Your average Fighter/Rogue isn't able to potentially blow up large portions of the map, cause stars to fall from the sky, or destroy entire cities. Not without the aid of Artifacts at least, which would require spellcasters to create them in the first place, who are/were capable of such things themselves. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 04:12 PM | There we have the problem. Powerful spellcasters. Too bad that there are so many (famous) of them. Especially as villians. Is there any other famous non spellcaster villian besides Artemis? |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 04:18 PM | It all depends on what you consider famous. But, for the most part, not that I can think of. Then again, there really aren't many "famous" good NPCs who aren't spellcasters, either. Drizzt is only famous in our world; he's next to a nobody in Faerun itself. I suppose Yamun Kul of the Tuigan Horde (20th level Fighter) could be considered a famous villain. But the thing is, powerful spellcasters is not a 'problem.' It's not something that can be fixed. As you said, powerful magic can make things like death negligible and can, in the current ruleset, pretty much do anything. That coupled with time and evolution creates Epic leveled spellcasters - just like in our real world, time + the evolution of science = nuclear superpowers who control the world, either directly, through influence, or threats. So, basically, magic can make death irrelevant (especially with lichdom available). The older a world is, the number of super-powerful spellcasters will steadily increase (because such NPCs either will not endanger their long lives and their long-term magical projects with direct conflict, or they will have clones/contingencies/etc. to whisk them away from harm). The only 'cure' to the problem, if one wishes to continue utilizing the current ruleset for magic (level 1-9 spells, standard classes, Epic rules, etc.) is to make a much younger world, or a world that has had one or more apocalyptic holocausts unilaterally. If you take the latter route, it's almost like you're making the former anyway, since one apocalyptic age would not have much to do with the next. It would have to be the equivalent of something that our real world has not yet seen - a nuclear holocaust. Something so huge as to destroy almost all civilization, knowledge, and learning across all involved cultures. Otherwise, knowledge and experience continually builds, whether slowly or quickly, once a culture reaches a certain level of communication (such as the last few centuries of our history). The science we have today is the result of thousands of years of science being built upon; the same goes for magic. When you have more experimentation and experience behind it, magic will be more common and advanced. |
| Derren S.10-21-06, 04:24 PM | I meant famous in our world. Lets say non spellcasting villian who was the main villian (or close to) in two novels (preferably in two different storylines). Obould would probably fit even though he only appeared in one storyline. |
| GothicDan10-21-06, 04:25 PM | Malik would qualify, then. |
| Psydrith10-21-06, 10:20 PM | What bothers me most about the Realms? Hmmmm. Well, nothing. I kinda like it. It's full of lore and good reading. Ed hit spot on with it, in my opinion. Always something new to see or do no matter how long you have played in them. Now, about Drizzypoo. I only dislike him because of the aforementioned rabid fanboys, but I don't let it get to me too much. My real reason for disliking him is the fact I had a nice CG Drow fighter/magic-user/thief back in 1st edition who became utterly unplayable, despite the awesome roleplay of the character, when Streams of Silver came out. The inevitable comparisons, comments, and so on made me not even want to play one of the most creative characters I had. So, yeah, Drizzypoo's fanboys made me dislike him. That said, the books are good...but not every fan is. I had the same thing happen with a drow male fighter I had that wore platemail and used a greatsword,when Ryld came out. |
| Kin-Kaal V'ryce11-06-06, 07:03 AM | What bothers me about the Forgotten Realms? Everything published after about 1990-1991! Once the published books began to fully switch over to 2nd edition, everything just started going downhill. I preferred the old 1st edition, Ed Greenwood Forgotten Realms. Back before the Time of Troubles, back before all the (largely un-necessary) changes and additions to the setting. Back before the setting was dictated by the ruleset and not the setting itself. The proliferation of game mechanics over substance or "fluff". It seems to me that now a days, whenever WotC comes up with some new idea for D&D its suddenly shoe-horned into the setting in the next book released. Back in the late 80s and early 90s there was just enough information on the setting to make it exciting and interesting. Now everything's become to over-developed and commercialized to the point where the setting has become rather bland and boring and feels very sterile. There's no real mysteries anymore. Everythings been covered in extravagant detail. The setting has been busied up, and the Realms feel far more constraining and so overdeveloped that they are stifling. As I recently read somewhere else "The original realms, in that original boxed set, were a great big vast empty continent, with a few regions detailed in astounding richness, where every step just reeked of adventure." The original FR boxed set along with the old FR series of supplements, were things of beauty. They created a lovely illusion of great, wondrous depth while actually leaving a tremendous amount of space for DMs to work freely. I personally thing that the Forgotten Realms needs to get back to that time. The time when Tristan Kendrick faced off against the Darkwalker in the Moonshaes, when Shandril was first discovering how to wield Spellfire, when Alias first met the Saurial paladin Dragonbait, and when a then unknown drow ranger first walked the tundra of Icewind Dale. The time when FR was new and open to the imagination. Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. |
| Zsych11-06-06, 10:48 AM | What I don't like about the Realms? All of those great power groups don't seem to be actually doing anything and are basically lifeless(despite what their histories would suggest), and a lot of characters that should be more thoroughly described(fluff and stat wise) aren't. Also... it is my opinion that every RSE should have some effect on all of the Realms, and even without them there should be minor change from time to time that should be printed. I want to know what various different groups thought about a situation, instead of remaining completely unchanged as if nothing had happened except in one microscopical part of the world. ... Also, I dislike that there be lots of RSEs.. especially due to things in the distant past coming into the present to change things out of the blue. Makes things seem unnatural. The Shades coming back was alright, but if it had happened after Cormanthyr's return, and the Deep Imaskari coming back and all that, I'd have been annoyed by that too. Seems forced(and not necessarily interesting... it's like all of those underdeveloped plot ideas they give you). ... I might actually be interested if the Imaskari for example had managed to seriously change or wipe out one of the current nations, or effect the realms at large in some way, but they don't seem to have done it(then again, I haven't read the novel, so I could be talking out of my *** here :)) |
| TonyMontana163811-06-06, 12:41 PM | I know it's been said before a thousand times but I'm saying it again: I dislike how the Realms overtly favor arcanists over every other chracter class. I hate the feeling I get when I try and conceive a character for a campaign I know will end up becoming epic that I should tend towards a mage, because 20th level fighters in the realms seem to drop like flies. I'm speaking entirely from a canonical perspective, sure my ranger could become 22nd level in the confines of my campaign but I have alot of respect for Realmslore and just have a gnawing agitation that if we're going to be working on this campagin for a long time, I don't want to be a character the game creators would kill off before too long, if they had their way. Does that make sense at all? I may not have explained it well, but it's just a mentality that comes from the answers in response to an "are there any epic _____ in FR?". What's always the answer? Yes, but there's about 37 times as many mages. I only brought this up because it's my only complaint, I love FR and I have for quite some time. :) |
| Alediran11-06-06, 01:07 PM | I know it's been said before a thousand times but I'm saying it again: I dislike how the Realms overtly favor arcanists over every other chracter class. I hate the feeling I get when I try and conceive a character for a campaign I know will end up becoming epic that I should tend towards a mage, because 20th level fighters in the realms seem to drop like flies. I'm speaking entirely from a canonical perspective, sure my ranger could become 22nd level in the confines of my campaign but I have alot of respect for Realmslore and just have a gnawing agitation that if we're going to be working on this campagin for a long time, I don't want to be a character the game creators would kill off before too long, if they had their way. Does that make sense at all? I may not have explained it well, but it's just a mentality that comes from the answers in response to an "are there any epic _____ in FR?". What's always the answer? Yes, but there's about 37 times as many mages. I only brought this up because it's my only complaint, I love FR and I have for quite some time. :) There ARE, if your character reaches epic levels and is not a class with all magic circles, he deserves to be epic, because he could achieve that kind of power without dying. You have to consider this, non-caster classes die more frecuently in Dragonlance, Greyhawk or other low magic settings because it's even harder to become well equiped for adventure in those worlds, that is why there aren't too many epic leve characters regardles of class in those settings. |
| Njord11-06-06, 04:13 PM | But, no. WotC I think is focusing much more on trying to make the Realms feel "alive" and "progressing the timeline" without ever detailing the world that it's become, and the results of the RSE's. It feels almost like we're playing a video game that keeps skipping. Exactly. By randomly fastfowarding we are getting a setting that is increasingly more wooden and forced. It is getting less alive and more crowded and unbelievable. Real estate is becoming such a premium, no wonder people are moving to other settings (Eberron specifically). I like many different settings and FR has always been my faviorite, but if there is one more RSE involving a long forgotten and completely unreasonable evil I am going to (insert diabloical threat that I have no intention of fulfilling). :banghead: |
| elondir11-07-06, 05:35 PM | I like the old 1987 FR over any other version. It's vague, but it's got character, and it smells like an old tome now (well mine does anyway). It's also exciting and new feeling. The things I don't like about the realms: Harpers, Zhentarim, the Time of Troubles (good books, not so good translation to the game), too much Drizzt (again great novels, but overused), Thay, Tuigan invasion, Maztica, Al-Qadim (had a few cool things), too much Elminster, unrealistic physical geography, simultaneous novels having no effect on each other, yuan-ti, the cult of the dragon, advancing the timeline too quickly, the recent novels, seeing "Lankhmar: City of Adventure" reprinted as "Waterdeep: City of Splendors" over and over again with minor changes, too much reprinted material, lack of a continental sourcebook (even though I dislike just about everything beyond the realms' borders, I think a single book to summarize them would be nice). Also I don't like the dragon rampage and the return of shade. It's a neat idea to have a Netheril flying city in the present but it could have been done better ("Shadows of Undrentide" is one example of a better way to reintroduce Netheril). What I do like about the realms are elemental nodes, crossroads, Sharess, the BG/NWN video games (Minsc was hilarious!), the epic nature, and the "old world" feel. |
| Faraer11-07-06, 06:05 PM | seeing "Lankhmar: City of Adventure" reprinted as "Waterdeep: City of Splendors" over and over again with minor changesWould you elaborate on this? |
| MerrikCale11-07-06, 09:39 PM | I know it's been said before a thousand times but I'm saying it again: I dislike how the Realms overtly favor arcanists over every other chracter class. :) I couldn't agree with that statement more. |
| elondir11-08-06, 10:55 AM | Waterdeep books: TSR1040 City System - this one has exact reprints of parts of Lankhmar: City of Adventure TSR1109 City of Splendors TSR9213 Waterdeep and the North TSR9379 Volo's Guide to Waterdeep WTC88162 City of Splendors: Waterdeep |
| Faraer11-08-06, 11:52 AM | Waterdeep books: TSR1040 City System - this one has exact reprints of parts of Lankhmar: City of AdventureThat isn't what you claimed: you said Waterdeep: City of Splendors was a reprint of Lankhmar: City of Adventure. This is a small part of the City System booklet. The content of FR1 Waterdeep and the North and Volo's Guide to Waterdeep is distinct and complementary. City of Splendors is a direct update of FR1, the only time text is duplicated in these books, and contains so much new material that owners of FR1 get more than their money's worth. City of Splendors: Waterdeep isn't a reprint in any sense. |
| Patrakis11-08-06, 12:20 PM | I like the old 1987 FR over any other version. It's vague, but it's got character, and it smells like an old tome now (well mine does anyway). It's also exciting and new feeling. The things I don't like about the realms: Harpers, Zhentarim, the Time of Troubles (good books, not so good translation to the game), too much Drizzt (again great novels, but overused), Thay, Tuigan invasion, Maztica, Al-Qadim (had a few cool things), too much Elminster, unrealistic physical geography, simultaneous novels having no effect on each other, yuan-ti, the cult of the dragon, advancing the timeline too quickly, the recent novels, seeing "Lankhmar: City of Adventure" reprinted as "Waterdeep: City of Splendors" over and over again with minor changes, too much reprinted material, lack of a continental sourcebook (even though I dislike just about everything beyond the realms' borders, I think a single book to summarize them would be nice). Also I don't like the dragon rampage and the return of shade. It's a neat idea to have a Netheril flying city in the present but it could have been done better ("Shadows of Undrentide" is one example of a better way to reintroduce Netheril). What I do like about the realms are elemental nodes, crossroads, Sharess, the BG/NWN video games (Minsc was hilarious!), the epic nature, and the "old world" feel. Wow, seeing that you like such a few things of the realms, it's a wonder you play in it at all!! (i assume you play in it though, i don't think you stated that you do). An empty comment, i know, but reading your post made me laugh and i had to. :D Pat |
| Gellion11-09-06, 09:07 PM | I couldn't agree with that statement more. I would like to see some powerful Clerics(Okay, we got Cadderly, and he is cool) take center stage.:) |
| Alediran11-10-06, 08:00 AM | I would like to see some powerful Clerics(Okay, we got Cadderly, and he is cool) take center stage.:) Fzoul. |
| MerrikCale11-10-06, 10:51 AM | Fzoul. True enough. But even the Zhents rely heavily on the arcane. And what of the other classes? I think the setting is a little too magic heavy |
| ShadezofDis11-10-06, 11:21 AM | Well, to be fair, FR IS magic heavy. It's part of the setting. However, I certainly agree that there should be more priests at center stage. Of course, center stage is driven by sales, so as long as the buyers want to read about wizards more than clerics, read more about gods than clerics, ect we'll have far more wizards and gods at center stage than clerics. |
| Faraer11-10-06, 11:26 AM | Bingo. There's a whole lot of confusion between the Realms and the presentation of the Realms in this thread. |
| Altar_Boy11-10-06, 06:52 PM | For a product line, there is no difference between presentation and the actual product. |
| miscellany11-11-06, 02:39 AM | I want LOTS more cleric info. And I want it so that Clerics are in charge of more places and regions. Gime more! |
| GothicDan11-11-06, 11:10 AM | For a product line, there is no difference between presentation and the actual product. Entirely, irrevocably false. Just because a commercial tells you that this AMAZING CLEANER CLEANS EVERYTHING doesn't mean that in reality, it does. Especially when you test it yourself (i.e. finding information out about it from sources other than the direct publishers - in this case, Ed Greenwood) and find it to be false. But if you think that FR is only what WotC hand feeds you, then so be it. Prepare to be endlessly disappointed, confused, and underfed. |
| Lawless11-11-06, 11:19 AM | You know ideally it would probably be best if those corporate monkies at WotC and Hasbro kept their hands out of the pot. Let Ed do all the 'fluff' stuff as he intended, along with people he trust, and let the designers work out the game mechanics. Alot of people ask Ed about the fluff stuff anyway rather than sticking with what's in the books. |
| GothicDan11-11-06, 12:19 PM | That's a good point. Look at the sheer number of questions that Ed gets asked about fluff-related lore - both by old AND new players. Obviously what's in the books isn't enough. |
| Nissl11-11-06, 05:51 PM | One thing that irritates me, like a lot of other people apparently, is just about everything outside of Faerun - things like Maztica and Kara-Tur. I would prefer leaving those parts of the map blank and uncharted rather than filling them in with a couple of brushstrokes and a lame port of a real-world culture. It's very confining. Another is the metaphysics, particularly the fact that people who haven't done anything worse than show little interest in some stupid god wind up in some sort of punishing purgatory forever rather than moving on or reincarnating or something. The whole warring gods thing is a little silly too. I'd rather see the gods as representative primal forces with some degree of intent and intelligence that can be accessed. Meh, I just mentally edit those parts out. The biggest thing the realms has for me over most other settings, btw, is that it doesn't have the whole Sauron thing where there's some ultimate evil trying to destroy the whole world. It's a big world (only about half the size of the US or so, but still...) with complicated political and economic structures that at least try to make some sense relative to the real world. It's at least somewhat grown-up and full of shades of gray rather than black and white. |
| Kin-Kaal V'ryce11-12-06, 01:21 AM | It's a big world (only about half the size of the US or so, but still...) Um, I don't know where you're getting this from but every souce I've seen says that the Realms are actually bigger then the US. The old comparison map in the 1st edition set shows that the U.S fits into the northern half of the Realms. |
| Nissl11-12-06, 02:11 AM | Um, I don't know where you're getting this from but every souce I've seen says that the Realms are actually bigger then the US. Well, it looks from the map here that the central parts of the main continent from calimshan to icewind dale and the sword coast to thay (so not counting kingdoms on the edge of the map that have a few paragraphs fleshing them out) are perhaps a bit over 2000 x 2000 miles. Taller than the US, not as wide. The whole continent is larger than the US... Anyway, it's a really big area that can accomodate a lot of different political structures. |
| Kin-Kaal V'ryce11-12-06, 04:28 AM | Actually, now that I really look at it, we're both wrong. You're underestimateing the size a bit, and I'm forgetting that they tilted the land west and chopped a bunch of (minor) north-south stuff out of the new 3rd editon map to make it all fit on one sheet of paper. Using the measurement tool at the bottom of the current map, I get the following: From Neverwinter on the Sword Coast to the Sunrise Mountains east of Thay is approximately 3,000 miles. From the Great Glacier in the north to The Misty Vale south of the Shar is approximately 1900 miles. For comparison, taken from Google Maps: From Seattle, Wash. to Boston, Mass. is 3,068 (counting all the curves on I-90). So its probably closer to 3,000 as the crow flies, if not a bit less. From Langdon, North Dakota, to Brownsville,Texas is 1,874 (again with some curves and such due to roads). So, when you include Chult, Halruaa, and the rest of the Shining South, the current Realms is just a bit bigger then the U.S. |
| This_Old_Troll11-15-06, 05:38 PM | What got old for me was that was the same genre: Good vs. Evil. Good always besting Evil. Evil destroys itself. How about more realize. Good vs. Good for materialitic means. Real Life is not as simple as the realms. |
| Dark Wizard11-15-06, 06:09 PM | The Realms are not that simple. There are instances of good guys disagreeing with other good guys, which caused all sorts of trouble. Two that immediately come to mind: - Khelban's split from the Harpers, even founding his own organization the Moonstars. -The Fall of Myth Drannor was partly due to various factions' political infighting, they couldn't mount a united front against the Army of Darkness. Besides materialistic interests are just one point of disagreement. Why just material? |
| This_Old_Troll11-16-06, 09:04 AM | I am talking about city-states or nations in the Forgotten Realms wrestling for economic control of regions. Disagreements is one thing, but having to fight for that disagreement would be something else. Case in point example would be Greece. The time is 500 B.C. Let us stereo-type and says the Greeks were the Good Guys and the Persians were the Bad Guys. O.K. the Persians invade after a few of the Greeks attempt to assist some city-states gain control of their own independence from Persian [it failed]. Most of the city-states unite against the Persians and defeat them in a great battle. The Persians are chased off, however, who gains control becomes an issue. Athens and Sparta split and have a long drawn out war with Persian doing some of the financing to keep the region unbalanced. Athens loses, Sparta wins, but a third power, Thebes, defeats the Spartans. Thebes tries to gain control of Greece, but their great leader is killed in combat and all the cities are too much divided. By this time, the Macedonians invade. With some financing from Persia, some of the older powers Greece eventually unite against them, but are defeated. Macedonia invades Persia. =================================== Man is his own worst enemy. The elves knew this long ago. And it should be portrayed as such. |
| Faraer11-16-06, 09:40 AM | Wrestling for economic advantage happens all across Faerûn -- why would you think otherwise? Outright war, on the other hand, is an absolute last resort for merchant-run governments. Like many on this thread, this is an objection to something about the Realms that's straightforwardly untrue. Just read Power of Faerûn. |
| BadCatMan11-16-06, 10:46 AM | Case in point example would be Greece. The time is 500 B.C. Let us stereo-type and says the Greeks were the Good Guys and the Persians were the Bad Guys. Let us not stereotype and say they're Neutral Guys and Neutral Guys. Which is exactly what all Earth history is all about. It's only in D&D that anyone acts completely out of the goodness of the their hearts and we can get Good Guys. Even the term Bad Guys is a little shaky on Earth. And we get exactly the warring cities and nations theme in places like Chessenta, or Cormyr vs Sembia, or any number of places we don't often hear about. |
| Dark Wizard11-16-06, 02:48 PM | Disagreements can mean entire nations falling. Various internal factions infighting meant the fall of mighty empires (blatant in your face example: Rome). I wouldn't underestimate disagreements. Humans aren't the only ones to fall from this, like I said, the elves of Cormanthor went exactly on the same path. What you're talking about with ancient Greece isn't just simple economics, though that's a major part of it. It's political and social influence also. And as other posters said before me, it happens all the time. Even good old Cormyr took chances to annex Tilverton a few decades ago, extending it's influence. Why do you think Cormyr and Zhentil Keep fight skirmishes around the Dales? Sure they're "good vs evil," but that's just the same when you're comparing Greece vs. Persia or Athens vs. Sparta. |
| reddfox32111-23-06, 03:58 PM | It really bothers me that as a core race Gnomes have no claim to fame. I don't even really play them but I feel more shine is given to any given elf subclass than gnomes. This includes sourcebooks and novels. I understand they're called the Forgotten Folk but damn! I say just merge them with halflings or move them out of the core races OR actually give them their shine. Here are some ideas: 1. Take the tinker route and give them a construct bonus of some sort 2. Fill up the Harper ranks with Gnomes (make them at least 1/3 of the harpers). The Gnomes use the secret society to keep themselves the Forgotten Folk and also oppose evil making sure the slavery Netheril forced the Gnomes into never happens again. |
| Sphinx_the_unMad11-26-06, 04:48 AM | I suppose what bothers me most is the devaluing of other classes through the use of magic/godly intervention "Why would we ever need Rogues if I can cast knock and look! All the locks are taken care of!?" "Why would I need a cleric if I can just make a healing potion and the gods speak to me because I'm so very special!" "Why bother with warriors at all if I can destroy you all with a wave of my epic spell hand?" Etc.... Perhaps I just personally would like to see magic do less mundane things and be more...magical? I kinda miss the "whoa" factor of seeing one of those strange sorcerers who was somehow born with the ability to use magic, or in awe of the wizard who spent decades to understand it at all. (I speak metaphorically of course). As for the Mystra thing, in most games I've been in, we didn't really value her as a "goddess". She was rather "melded" into the "weave" that made magic work on Faerun. And I'm still trying to grasp that whole shadow weave thing :tantrum: |
| Waylander11-27-06, 01:50 AM | Oh well, I'll pitch in my opinion despite this being page 10. My beef with the realms. #3 Too many sub races and worse too many sub cultures. Cromyre, Calimshan, Waterdeep, Malhorund, Chults, Rashman, Thay, Nethersee.... etc etc etc. It is very hard to absorb all this for all new players and DMs. #2 Elminster/Mystra. Cheese, especially after reading Elminster in Hell. Enough said. #1 FR has so many epical stories and very very few adventures that involve these epics. CotSQ was probably the best they did since it is side lining the story of the War of the Spider Queen. How about an adventure about the Nethersee. I find FR very restrictive in their products cause they are afraid to move the setting. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde11-27-06, 08:56 AM | Cromyre, Calimshan, Waterdeep, Malhorund, Chults, Rashman, Thay, Nethersee.... It's Cormyr, Calimshan, Waterdeep, Mulhorand, Chult, Rashemen, Thay and Netheril. DB |
| wesleytj11-27-06, 09:37 AM | For me, the problem with the forgotten realms is also exactly what makes it so great. It's one of those mixed blessing/curse thing. It's great that there is such a great wealth of published material for it. The problem that brings up, however, is trying to find a reference you're looking for within those 30 or so supplements...whether it's a spell, feat, prestige class, entry on some organization or city, or whatever. "Was that in Underdark, or Lords of Darkness?" Then you have to try to remember which parts were 3.0 compatible, and which have rewrites somewhere in another 3.5 supplement. It's a mess. Obviously, I know it won't happen for the simple fact that it would be bad business, but it would be great it they'd release a single reference with all the FR feats and spells, all in 3.5 version, to help clarify. Our group plays in my basement, which is about the only thing that saves me from having to lug around a truckload of books all the time. Of course the other problem that creates is that the next month that compilation book is incomplete because the next new thing came out with more stuff. |
| wesleytj11-27-06, 09:55 AM | Oh well, I'll pitch in my opinion despite this being page 10. My beef with the realms. #3 Too many sub races and worse too many sub cultures. Cromyre, Calimshan, Waterdeep, Malhorund, Chults, Rashman, Thay, Nethersee.... etc etc etc. It is very hard to absorb all this for all new players and DMs. I don't see that as a problem. Just concentrate your campaign on a specific part of the realms...there's certainly no need for the players or the pc's to know about Mulhorand's war on Unther if their campaign takes place in Chult. #2 Elminster/Mystra. Cheese, especially after reading Elminster in Hell. Enough said. I've run 3 or 4 full campaigns in the realms, and never has Elminster gotten more than a passing mention in any of them. The novels and the backstory and so on for the epic npc's of the Realms need not figure into your game at all. Tell your character's story, not someone else's. #1 FR has so many epical stories and very very few adventures that involve these epics. CotSQ was probably the best they did since it is side lining the story of the War of the Spider Queen. How about an adventure about the Nethersee. I find FR very restrictive in their products cause they are afraid to move the setting. That's what a good DM does in the course of their campaign. Move the setting yourself in a way that you see fit. Do you want WotC to do everything for you? FR is the setting. They put the background there. As the DM, you move it forward. |
| wesleytj11-27-06, 10:04 AM | I suppose what bothers me most is the devaluing of other classes through the use of magic/godly intervention "Why would we ever need Rogues if I can cast knock and look! All the locks are taken care of!?" Knock is not a realms-only spell. And if that's all your rogue is good for, that's a real issue. Besides, if you're such an uber-powerful mage, don't you have more important spells to memorize than knock, even at lvl1? "Why would I need a cleric if I can just make a healing potion and the gods speak to me because I'm so very special!" If your DM is doing stuff like that, that's a flaw with him/her, not the setting. Direct divine intervention should be almost as rare in the realms as it is here. "Why bother with warriors at all if I can destroy you all with a wave of my epic spell hand?" Again, epic level mages have immense destructive power in all settings, not just the realms. However, that mage is going to have a serious problem without the fighter to keep him out of melee combat, no matter what spells he does or does not have. As for the Mystra thing, in most games I've been in, we didn't really value her as a "goddess". She was rather "melded" into the "weave" that made magic work on Faerun. And I'm still trying to grasp that whole shadow weave thing :tantrum: There's certainly nothing wrong with that approach. Mystra is certainly an unusual goddess, sort of abstracting her away into the Weave makes sense. As for the Shadow Weave thing, if you don't like it, keep in mind that 99% of the inhabitants of Faerun, and even most spellcasters, don't even know of its existence. If you don't want to deal with it, it's not a big deal to just edit it out of your campaign. I actually did a campaign (in some ways 2 connected campaigns) that were in large part focused on the Shadow Weave, and at a midpoint in the campaign, when the PC's were finally coming to grips with who was behind all the seemingly random evil acts against the Church of Selune in various parts of the Realms, they had to spend quite a bit of time and effort just to figure out that the Shadow Weave existed, let alone what it was, and so on. If you don't want to have your game go there, then don't. |
| summerstar11-27-06, 03:26 PM | Alright, we all know why we love the Forgotten Realms. Now, what do we hate about it? Bladesong, Thanks for initiating this superb thread. |
| summerstar11-27-06, 03:29 PM | What DON'T I like about the Realms? The prevalance of supposedly uber-powerful Npc characters does not bother me. In a campaign world like Forgotten Realms, if they weren't around I would be asking where they were! I love the fact they are typically worked into the background in a fashion that doesn't (at least in the games I play in) detract from the players sense of achievement and story. In response to one of the original posters other dislikes, I am quite glad the world appears to be dominated by humans...that is what makes the other races all the more interesting and keeps the setting familiar to the common person. If I had to pick something I don't like about the Realms it would be that I don't know nearly as much about it as I would like, and I know I never will because it seems to grow faster than I have time to dedicate to learning about it. That in my opinion is not such a bad problem to have though. I might also say that since coming to these boards, I find I don't like all the negative feelings towards a great character like Drizz't and the Dark Elves in general that is being stirred up "fanatical fanboys" (I assume that is the appropriate term since I certainly am not familiar with all of the board and chat room slang/shorthand used in message boards and such) that can't seem to come up with any other character concepts other than that of a "cool" Drow character for every gaming group they play in. Nor the fact that they can't seem to discuss Dark Elves in a rational manner without resorting to some sort of "Drow Elves Rule!" mindset. This negative backlash that is being generated sometimes really makes it hard to discuss real issues about Dark Elves, or especially anything related to or inspired by Drizz't (or even R.A. Salvatore for that matter). Other than that, it is ALL GOOD in my opinion. I originally was a big fan of Greyhawk, and I kind of turned my nose up at the Realms when it came out. I still love Oerth and Greyhawk, but I have to say I have been assimilated...the Realms feel so much more...well just so much MORE! I still play Greyhawk, but my real passion for an established, pre-generated fantasy campaign setting lies with the Realms, hands down! If you don't like it, that is cool with me...just go away and play your video game or something and leave me to enjoy the rich tapestry of high fantasy that is the Realms...Thank you kindly. I am in agreement with every word of this post from Agent_of_the_Crown's. Well done! |
| summerstar11-27-06, 04:07 PM | As noted above, I've come to love the realms. However, at first, I didn't want anything to do with the Realms. I've played D&D since 1978 and started off in Greyhawk. I particularly loved the Greyhawk materials published by Carl Sargent. The T1-4 and G1-3 were solid as a rock. I watch the Realms being flushed out in Ed Greenwood's early articles in the Dragon magazine and remember being impressed by his work and the richness of the setting he was creating. However, during the dark ages of D&D - 2nd edition, I continued to play in Oerth. I watched a fair bit of Realms material being published that seemed Monty Hall in character. Quality suffered in those years. It wasn't until the 3rd edition of D&D and the wonderful Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting hardcover was published that I became enthralled with the Realms. Without a doubt, it is among the best fantasy gaming material ever published. Anyway, the things about the Realms that I don't like: 1. I don't like the Deities that are borrowed from real-world mythology. Tyr, Isis, and the others jar my imagination each time I encounter them in the material. 2. Elminster and the Seven Sisters remind me too much of Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight. In both cases, the presence of a cabal of uber-NPC's bothers me. 3. The material that so blatantly mirrors the real-world cultures such as the egyptian flavored Mulhodandi is weak. 4. The existance of Ao - the overgod. 5. Myth Drannor. Let's give this place a rest already. 6. Phaerimms. Weren't Dragons enough? This list is pretty short. By and large, the Realms are a wonderful place to be. I would like to see additional adventure modules published that are not campaign setting resource books. The campaign setting is rich and well document, but as a DM I need access to pre-generated adventure content. Content similiar to the G1-3 series but set in FR would be great. The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is solid adventure material but just in the wrong setting. Let's see material that can bring characters from 1-20+. My preference would to see this content set in the Silver Marches (but Dalelands, Cormyr, or Waterdeep wouldn't be bad either). I hope that new content doesn't destabalize the broader campaign setting (ie Greyhawk Wars or Time of Troubles). Richard Baker's work in the FR has been superb. Please keep it up! Regards, Summerstar |
| Khaelieth11-27-06, 07:14 PM | I like the realms. As aformentioned though, the demographics do. That Bhaal and Myrkul were killed also pisses me off, they were the most awesome gods created! I also prefer a single, insanely powerful nasty fellow, as in the equivelant of Morgoth. Szass just isn't as intimidating as he was. I know people will argue that Thay, the Black Network, the Shades, the Phaerimms and the Drow are all big nasties, but Szass seems incapable of smashing a nation of fishermen, the Black Network have been curbed in the West, though they are spreading throughout the Moonseas. The Shades were entertaining, but they're not as scary basically, their numbers are limited. The Phaerimms got crushed recently and the Drow are just suffering setback after setback. And I don't think any infernal powers have an invasion in mind. The religions and themes don't bother me at all really (unless it involved the death of Myrkul or Bhaal), it helps me picture things. |
| MerrikCale11-30-06, 12:40 PM | I like the realms. As aformentioned though, the demographics do. That Bhaal and Myrkul were killed also pisses me off, they were the most awesome gods created! I also prefer a single, insanely powerful nasty fellow, as in the equivelant of Morgoth. Szass just isn't as intimidating as he was. I know people will argue that Thay, the Black Network, the Shades, the Phaerimms and the Drow are all big nasties, but Szass seems incapable of smashing a nation of fishermen, the Black Network have been curbed in the West, though they are spreading throughout the Moonseas. The Shades were entertaining, but they're not as scary basically, their numbers are limited. The Phaerimms got crushed recently and the Drow are just suffering setback after setback. And I don't think any infernal powers have an invasion in mind. The religions and themes don't bother me at all really (unless it involved the death of Myrkul or Bhaal), it helps me picture things. I find the shades and the phaerimm annoying. |
| Walls11-30-06, 02:02 PM | I have only read through a couple pages so far but if I may throw in a simple solution. As the DM, which I am sure many of you are, you have the COMPLETE power to do _as you please_. You may change the world as you deem fit. This includes NPC's levels and involvement, use of the rest of the world, storylines, gods, whatever you want. I, for one, ignore Ao. Screw it. No need to even bother. I also tend to ignore wild magic unless certain characters want it. I almost never use the Underdark. It explicitly states in the DM's guide and a million other books since the beginning of D&D that the rules and story arcs and settings within any of their products are not set in stone. You, as the DM and/or player, have the power to change it. WotC merely gives us suggestions and guidelines. Discuss with your DM as to what changes could be made. If a DM, then talk to your players about ideas to make the world a better place to play in. It's malleable and I think too many people forget this. It is why I dislike rule smashers and number crunchers and munchkins so much. They are out to break a game and people let them. D&D, in all rights, should be unbreakable. Rules can be changed, creatures supposedly undefeatable can be made so. You don't want a door unlocked, it won't be. You don't want something found, it won't be. A PC pisses you off, you can drop a mountain on them. It's the beauty of roleplaying, an art lost on alot of the younger generation of players. The dice do set the pace, no doubt, and are very important in the overall scheme but they are FAR and AWAY from the be all, end all. Do as you will, even in an established setting as the FR. Don't worry about so and so being this level or this creature being from this place or this land not being used or being used to much. Simply change it if you don't like it. Now... back to reading the thread and seeing if I just copied what others said. PS: Loving this place so far, guys. I just found the forums very recently and am addicted! :) Walls |
| Gellion11-30-06, 04:55 PM | A PC pisses you off, you can drop a mountain on them. The PCs better have done something in-game to cause that to happen. As long as it is something only the PCs did and not something the players did. I would leave such a game where it happened for no reason. |
| THETUNNELRAT11-30-06, 05:53 PM | jest AO I don't like him/Her/ whatever the whole idea of a super powerful and apathetic Over God seems too real world like . (not met to flame mainstream religion) . |
| Walls11-30-06, 07:06 PM | The PCs better have done something in-game to cause that to happen. As long as it is something only the PCs did and not something the players did. I would leave such a game where it happened for no reason. Well yes, of course. However rule b*tching out of character, complaining about everything because it isn't by the exact formula/rules/dice roll, etc, will get it from me anyhow. It's about telling a story, not rolling dice. I find very VERY few players these days do anything in character. It's always "my guy will unlock the door" instead of "I unlock the door". That's the prime premise behind role playing IMO. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde11-30-06, 07:11 PM | I find very VERY few players these days do anything in character. It's always "my guy will unlock the door" instead of "I unlock the door". That's the prime premise behind role playing IMO. I think it's less a problem with these days, but with certain players. DB |
| summerstar11-30-06, 08:50 PM | As the DM, which I am sure many of you are, you have the COMPLETE power to do _as you please_. You may change the world as you deem fit. Walls Fair enough, that's all very true. I think the thread was calling for our thoughts on what aspects of the published FR that we don't like. Anyway, I agree that we should of course amend the published worlds to fit our tastes and the tastes of our players. |
| Red_Wizard11-30-06, 09:49 PM | Well yes, of course. However rule b*tching out of character, complaining about everything because it isn't by the exact formula/rules/dice roll, etc, will get it from me anyhow. It's about telling a story, not rolling dice. I find very VERY few players these days do anything in character. It's always "my guy will unlock the door" instead of "I unlock the door". That's the prime premise behind role playing IMO. So where does this leave me, I prefer to follow the rules, and unless previously set as a house rule, i'll call someone on their mistakes, or sudden changes. But, I am the only one in my group to not only talk in character, but with a character accent ;) |
| Gellion12-01-06, 04:21 PM | Well yes, of course. However rule b*tching out of character, complaining about everything because it isn't by the exact formula/rules/dice roll, etc, will get it from me anyhow. It's about telling a story, not rolling dice. I find very VERY few players these days do anything in character. It's always "my guy will unlock the door" instead of "I unlock the door". That's the prime premise behind role playing IMO. Point taken. To some people though, DnD is about kicking back and smashing some monsters. I like to kick butt and roleplay.:) |
| Loto_GoCeraf12-01-06, 05:01 PM | I have to go along with some of the other people and berate the presence of so many immensely powerful wizards. For one thing, it furthers the stereotype that, in game, martial characters are completely useless. For another, it also belittles the authors whose main characters use things other than magic that could destroy entire nations. I recall a debate I had with one of my DMs, about why powerful, evil wizards like the Manshoon don't just build a tiny little demiplane and destroy all of Faerun through use of simulcrums (sp?) and high level magic. No setting should allow arguments like his to exist!! ...and my argument was deterrence. |
| elmondark12-03-06, 02:32 PM | well...im sure milions of ppl live on faerun, and im sure a couple of % of those are more powerfull than the avarage person. so of course there's some lvl 20+ here and there :) many of them are 100s if not 1000s of years old anyways. would be strange if someone was 2000year old and was lvl 10 fighter or whatever. i disslike that there isnt any cool D&D movies out there. the 2 i know suck... now imagin if they put down as much time on a D&D movie as LotR! Hmm ya i noticed that there was those extra continents that take up more space than Faerun, and they all have unknown names... And i also noticed in some rulebook, think it was FR campaign settings, that mystra was a bearded man that looked slightly light Elminster....since when is mystra an old white bearded man? And Bane was a Evil looking female, in some black plate armor...torm looked slightly feminine too, with cupped breastplate....whats up with that? I dont like that lvl 1 char only get 1 atk/round, i can swing a knife maybe 10 times/round... But im sure this is partially cause a DM doesnt wanna roll 10+ times/creature it would make some campaigns take some extra years to complete...as well as other factors, but it's still annoying. armors should confer dam reduction. not make it harder to hit a target. if someone stands still in full-plate, and i swing like crazy, im sure i could hit everytime, but probably not damage the wearer of the armor. there should be both AC and damage reduction, of you fail AC you still hit armor, and maybe can penetrate armor hardness/HP and damage wearer with less damage. if you bypass AC you deal full damage... It's kinda silly to play games like Baldurs Gate, and Neverwinter Nights, and fight a high AC mob, and stand there for hours swatting flies -.- im kinda noob to D&D still, so i cant complain on to much realy...dont know enough to complain :) |
| GothicDan12-03-06, 02:42 PM | Deities can appear to look however they like. :) |
| GothicDan12-03-06, 02:44 PM | I have to go along with some of the other people and berate the presence of so many immensely powerful wizards. For one thing, it furthers the stereotype that, in game, martial characters are completely useless. For another, it also belittles the authors whose main characters use things other than magic that could destroy entire nations. I recall a debate I had with one of my DMs, about why powerful, evil wizards like the Manshoon don't just build a tiny little demiplane and destroy all of Faerun through use of simulcrums (sp?) and high level magic. No setting should allow arguments like his to exist!! ...and my argument was deterrence A friend and I once had a short conversation with this. Basically: this was an aspect of the previous rulesets of the D&D/AD&D games. It is not an aspect of FR. Your average 'high level' Wizard in FR isn't REALLY exactly like the high level Wizards as statted in the game. It was a world that existed before D&D ever came about. And mid-high level wizards DO make martial characters completely obsolete, from a pure mechanical perspective, even in the modern ruleset. |
| Dark Wizard12-03-06, 05:06 PM | A friend and I once had a short conversation with this. Basically: this was an aspect of the previous rulesets of the D&D/AD&D games. It is not an aspect of FR. Your average 'high level' Wizard in FR isn't REALLY exactly like the high level Wizards as statted in the game. It was a world that existed before D&D ever came about. And mid-high level wizards DO make martial characters completely obsolete, from a pure mechanical perspective, even in the modern ruleset. Indeed, though the current rules do a lot to try to make martial characters more useful than they were. Maybe one potential fix for all the epic level wizards is to create a "Sage" NPC class (as the Eberron setting has a magewright NPC class to their iconic Artificer adventuring PC class). FR should have a Sage class to the PC Wizards, since wizards seem almost iconic for FR. The Sage class would be like a watered down wizard, something more appropriate than the Adept, like the Aristocrat compared to the Warrior, a class that could potentially make a half decent PC class but not quite. The Sage would focus on beneficial magics and utility spells, the sort who ward a king's castle or help in the construction of public works or spend time locked in their towers researching magic rather than the adventuring wizard. A lot of FR's wizards aren't the sort who go out adventuring, but rather stay close to their home turf as court wizards, local village magelings, hedge wizards, or recluse "mad magicians." They can hold their own against some threats, but aren't up to par with an actual wizard. Hmm, now that I think about it, this would probably be difficult to design, but it's just a random thought. |
| Alac Luin12-03-06, 05:12 PM | And i also noticed in some rulebook, think it was FR campaign settings, that mystra was a bearded man that looked slightly light Elminster....since when is mystra an old white bearded man? And Bane was a Evil looking female, in some black plate armor...torm looked slightly feminine too, with cupped breastplate....whats up with that? Those were examples of clerics of those Deities, not the deities themselves. |
| GothicDan12-03-06, 06:48 PM | Dark Wizard, you're sort of on the track that I've been looking at for a long time in toying with my own campaign ideas. I've always looked at two possibilities: uber-archetypal classes with lots of possibilities and Feats, or very culturally specific classes. In the latter case, you'd have the Sage, the Ward Wizard, etc. But in general, I'd love to see that sort of NPC Sage/Wizard used in FR, since not every Wizard in FR runs around blowing up orcs with fireballs to 'gain XP.' |
| Deus_ex_Invictus12-03-06, 08:02 PM | Hmm... there isn't much I dislike about the Realms really. In fact the only thing I think that remotely bothers me is the fact that Mystra is NG instead of TN, but whatever... I tend to prefer the Realms because it has more backstabbing and cunning politics than say... a setting such as Dragonlance. Dragonlance grew old after awhile due to the endless forces of evil always commanding huge armies against a splinter group of good aligned heroes. The Realms is more realistic in the fact that it has more shades of gray. |
| GothicDan12-03-06, 08:07 PM | I agree with that, heartily. It's one of the reason I like the Realms. Or rather - if that's what I want, the Realms is the setting I like! If I want huge battles between good and evil? I go for Dragonlance. :) |
| Alac Luin12-03-06, 08:26 PM | It a little funny, some people complain that the Realms is way to "good vs. Evil" and there aren't enough Shades of Gray. Not saying I'm one of those, but just a note. :) |
| Dark Wizard12-03-06, 08:53 PM | Dark Wizard, you're sort of on the track that I've been looking at for a long time in toying with my own campaign ideas. I've always looked at two possibilities: uber-archetypal classes with lots of possibilities and Feats, or very culturally specific classes. In the latter case, you'd have the Sage, the Ward Wizard, etc. But in general, I'd love to see that sort of NPC Sage/Wizard used in FR, since not every Wizard in FR runs around blowing up orcs with fireballs to 'gain XP.' Yup. Would go a long way in explaining why so many level 15+ sage-wizards really don't bother competing with PC adventurers, they aren't meant to be adventurers. It makes some sense for the setting, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I think it's just one of those things where FR hasn't adapted to the 3e rules set yet. I'd be willing to buy an updated 3.5e FRCS if it included such an NPC class, gave more updates to existing 3.0e bits and some lore updates. Beats having to flip and sorting through the FRCS and the PGtF. It a little funny, some people complain that the Realms is way to "good vs. Evil" and there aren't enough Shades of Gray. Not saying I'm one of those, but just a note. Another thing I feel the FRCS needs to be clear about. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the Realms. Eberron seems to make clear what it's all about. FR needs to present more precise information on its flavor and setting dynamics. While the FRCS does so decently, the message easily gets lost in the varied events, books, novels, adventures, etc. that take place and change constantly. I'm pretty tired of hearing certain surface-level statements being repeated about the Realms ad nauseam (often in a negative manner too). |
| GothicDan12-04-06, 12:26 AM | You mean like: - The Chosen of Mystra are stupid/overpowered/overstep their bounds!! - Mystra is dumb and should die!! - There are too many Epic-level WIzards!1 for no reazon!!! - omg there are 2 mani good guys in the Realms!11 - There are tooo mnay deities! - Dr0w are so cool thyey rox every1! theyre everywhere! Etc.? (.... I've had a bad night, and am feeling spiteful.) |
| Dark Wizard12-04-06, 12:40 AM | Yeah, those, and others. Maybe the next FRCS should just be a 350 page book addressing only those issues. People probably still wouldn't be satisfied. I'm having a decent night and I'm spiteful for the hell of it. :D |
| AlorinDawn12-04-06, 06:49 PM | Folks that won't shut up about how great and all mighty Drizzt is. |
| Dark Wizard12-04-06, 07:05 PM | Another 350 page book on that! Hater's Guide to Faerun and Fanboy's Guide to Faerun. |
| Yakostovian12-04-06, 08:42 PM | OMG u guyz all suck cuz Drizzt is teh awesome!!!11!!one!!!!11!!eleven!!! I liked Drizzt far better when fewer people liked him. I just wish the fanbois would pick a less one dimensional character once in a while. (Note: While Drizzt may not be one dimensional, he most certainly is not three dimensional.) |
| Ramenth12-05-06, 01:16 AM | I like the general idea that R.A. hit on in the last Drizzt trilogy; That he is actually an Agent of Loth, inducing Chaos wherever he goes. I personally think this needs to be delveloped, preferably by setting the next two trilogies somewhere far away and not mentioning Drizzt at all. |
| elmondark12-05-06, 10:40 AM | mage classes bother me... i read some about the simbul, she's like totaly super uber mage, and defeated a thayan army by herself or something. but that's not what's bothering me, it's that, well you only have a limited amount of spell slots. and half of them or more, are kinda low lvl spells. So how can she defeat an army with that? she'd have to whack most of them with a staff or dagger, cause she ran out of spell slots -.- if it was pnp fight...unless the army was 20ppl... And then i read about the shoon VII vs dragon thing, they kinda destroyed the whole nearby town, and 75000 slaves...where did all those spell slots come from? the whole concept of spell slots, and meditating or whatever to regain spells, is weird to me :) since it doesnt seem to apply to historical battles anyways... but hey, im still just a noob ^^ |
| elmondark12-05-06, 10:50 AM | Mystra is Good person, cause her agents work toward good things, to depose of cyric and those bad guys. It's not like she doesnt care wheter someone commits a murder cause you felt like it, so she cant be TN. You'd need to rewrite her personality to get TN mystra, or have her killed, and replaced. But she cant deny evil spell casters spells, cause AO would banish her...there needs to be a balance. The only reason she can stop someone from using spells, is if the person is trying to damage the weave. |
| Derren S.12-05-06, 10:51 AM | since it doesnt seem to apply to historical battles anyways... The other way around. The history doesn't apply to the game rules. |
| Alediran12-05-06, 10:56 AM | Metamagic can do wonders in battles against many foes. Enlarge Spell is my favourite for large battles. |
| GothicDan12-05-06, 01:38 PM | Epic Magic (which the Simbul has, and Shoon IV probably has) can accomplish damn near anything given proper time and resources. And when the rules don't reflect the lore and history of the setting, that's when you change the rules. :) |
| Derren S.12-05-06, 01:44 PM | And when the rules don't reflect the lore and history of the setting, that's when you change the rules. :) So you propose making the game even more mage centric where every wizard, no matter what level, can kill hundereds of other characters with a blink of an eye (except dual wielding dark elves)? How fun... |
| GothicDan12-05-06, 01:50 PM | Hey, Derren? Why don't you try not hyperbolizing everything? Archmages? Some should be able to destroy armies of other characters. Yup. Just like a nuke can take out an entire city. But that's all - archmages. And only some of them. |
| Faraer12-05-06, 03:02 PM | FR needs to present more precise information on its flavor and setting dynamics. While the FRCS does so decently, the message easily gets lost in the varied events, books, novels, adventures, etc. that take place and change constantly.Yes, it very much does. |
| elmondark12-06-06, 01:05 PM | well i think they forgot to mention the epic spells :) but im sure, she doesnt have very many epic spell slots anyways. but from what i understood, the battles raged for a long time, wasting all your spells wouldnt take all the much time for a lvl 30-35 mage :) with metamagic feats and stuff. |
| DreamStalker12-06-06, 03:58 PM | Even a good number of level 3 spells can wipe out an army.... she does not even bother with most of the fielded Thayans most of the time, instead focusing on opposed spellcasters and key leaders. One of the advantages of mage, especially an extremely high level one, is that armies do best when in formations. Formations are HIGHLY susceptible to being torn about by spells. The mages fielded in most Thayan armies are not of a power to oppose her magics. Many of the key Thayan wizards are busy fighting each other off to bother directly attacking a Chosen. Well placed effects that have area as well as duration can be deadly. Things like Killing Fog, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, even Mordenkainens Sword. Not to mention the devastating effect slaughtering the leadership of an army can have. In the few high teens to low twenties level of games I have played my gaming group and I find most armies to be obstacles rather than certain doom if there are spellcasters in the party. Just my experiences and opinions. I would have to concur that the current rules set and writeup does not do The Simbul justice however. |
| Derren S.12-06-06, 04:13 PM | I would have to concur that the current rules set and writeup does not do The Simbul justice however. To do the lore justice the Simbul, and probably most other spellcasters would need at least 10 more levels. |
| GothicDan12-07-06, 02:29 AM | Or Epic Spellcasting. Oops, she has that. |
| Waylander12-14-06, 09:21 PM | I don't see that as a problem. Just concentrate your campaign on a specific part of the realms...there's certainly no need for the players or the pc's to know about Mulhorand's war on Unther if their campaign takes place in Chult. I've run 3 or 4 full campaigns in the realms, and never has Elminster gotten more than a passing mention in any of them. The novels and the backstory and so on for the epic npc's of the Realms need not figure into your game at all. Tell your character's story, not someone else's. That's what a good DM does in the course of their campaign. Move the setting yourself in a way that you see fit. Do you want WotC to do everything for you? FR is the setting. They put the background there. As the DM, you move it forward. See the problem still persists.. people read posts.. dont understand the overall picture and just reply... as if it is the best thing that happened to the setting. 1) If you want my money.. or any DM's money, then the setting needs to interest us with good story shaking adventures... if you want me to make my own crap then what the heck do i need the setting for? 2) Elminster/Mystra/Good-guys-cheesy might not sound like an issue if you dont bring them up but they are a big repellent for people who are curious about different areas of the realm and then come across this style of stories.. Old Grey Hawk was well loved because god rarely came down and rescued a hero from dying. 3) Concentrating on one place in FR is impossible without stripping it of its good side.. But when you got a billion and one organizations interefering... you got a lot of things to keep in mind and that makes it cumbersome. Many organizations are not clearly defined and some are not original in nature. Finally... correcting my spelling doesn't make what i said wrong. You need to appeal to what the crowd wants... |
| ShadezofDis12-14-06, 10:29 PM | 3) Concentrating on one place in FR is impossible without stripping it of its good side.. But when you got a billion and one organizations interefering... you got a lot of things to keep in mind and that makes it cumbersome. Many organizations are not clearly defined and some are not original in nature. Ummm. . . actually. . . I'm running my game in one place in FR. I've developed the region very well and given the pc's a reason to stay in the area. I think we've gamed for about 3 months on this particular game and they've stayed in the same . . . two week long ride? Maybe three? I do have some big plans though, soon they'll take a two month long journey. It's to go get some horses to herd back to where they've been at. So basically, I've kept the pc's in one area, concentrating on it, and I'd like to think I haven't stripped FR of it's good side. :) |
| Gallameed12-16-06, 04:25 PM | Hi, the thing that bothers me about this setting is, if its so damn popular and all that, how come it relies on books to spread all of its many words? Everyone knows books are boring and the new invention known as "television" is where its at! They should have each of these "books" be a tv show instead, that way I can just sit on my arse and have all the FR goodness beamed directly into my eyes! Hmmm, maybe these "books" could be read out by that Opera Winfrey woman (or some other jolly black lady like her out of loadsa stuff.... Whoopee Goldburg, yeah I love her she can do impressions of Tina Turner!) because didnt that Opera person discover books anyway? That would be beeble X amount moogles! I would OTT mangasize it right in the neck like a guyver unit on fairie cakes next tuesday! |
| Gallameed12-16-06, 04:36 PM | Nah actually, GIANTS! There should be a GIANTS realm, a realm where GIANTS are the boss and everyone else is nothing. Imagine the possibilities! Everthing would be big! HA! And if you wernt a GIANT you would be small! GIANTS OMOGMOGMOGMOGM! im spent. Bu t it. would B kewl. :) |
| Karsus the Mad12-16-06, 06:07 PM | But, but...I don't watch television...I read...:bigeyes: |
| Alediran12-18-06, 09:39 AM | Stories are much better in books, where you can have very long reads the size of a pocket. |
| kelcimer12-18-06, 04:57 PM | The main problem I have with the Realms is that every land is a frontier realm. Why is it that any nation or empire can only ever get so big? My other problem is that the lands that are supposedly the cradles of civilization are underdeveloped. Why does Calimshan have a 6000 year history, but only have one road? Turmish has a thousand year history, but stuff only happened in it's first hundred years and the last hundred years? Why hasn't one of the many nations on the Sea of Fallen Stars rooted out the Pirates of the Pirate Isles and established a forts and settlements there? I think it would have been much more compelling had there been a island kingdom that degenerated into the lawless Pirate Isles. Meh. I'd like to see something of a Roman Empire Conquer everything from Mulhorad in the East to Calimshan and Amn in the West. Have it build roads where there should be roads and give the realms as a center of political gravity that most nations have to deal with. One of the strengths of the realms is that it's like a bunch of mini setting right next to each other. It's also one of it's weaknesses in that there's nothing holding the realms together. Re: "FR has a lack of direction" "Too much happening in too few years" Aye and aye. Is it too much to have novels occurring in the next ten years leading up to when the setting gets re released, bumping it by 12 or 15 years. They're a bit due for that now... • Re: GothicDan In other words, ask yourself: "What is the flavor of Europe?" "Since the end of WW2 it has had the US military umbrella over it formalized through NATO. Simply put, NATO was to keep Russia out, Germany down and America in. This effectively removed the military option from the countries of Europe to sort out their differances. This was truly historic. Because the military option was no longer there cooperation eventually became the rage. The European Coal and Steel Community became the European Economic Community which eventually became the EU. This would not have occurred had it not been for the American Military umbrella. During the Cold War the countries of Europe continued to feel important due to it being the front line in the conflict. Since the end of the Cold War, however, Europe's relevance to the world stage experienced a corresponding decline which features in it's ongoing psychology. Part of what has since fueled deeper EU integration and expansion is the need to wield more weight on the world stage (i.e. relevance) and provide a counter weight to the US (their words not mine) Europe is currently dealing with the downsides of socialism (including a mediocre at best economy), integration (good, bad, painful, and ugly), a negative birthrate, and muslim immigrants who are not integrating into their host countries nearly as well as their counterparts in America. In the next 20 years you can look forward to the integration into the EU of the rest of the Balkins, Ukraine, and the rest of Eastern Europe. Also watch as they deal with the muslim integration, that should be especially painful." There you go, a cohesive story for the whole. Individual flavors will vary but those are the big elements that all of Europe is dealing with. • Re: GothicDan There has not been much "open" evil in Faerun for this reason, just like in real life. When "evil" arises on a large enough scale, all countries threatened by it band together against it - sort of like the World Wars. None of the World Wars can be characterized like that. WW1 was a mess of alliances and countries pursuing their own interests. In short, it was a tragedy. In WW2 many nations threatened by it, including the US, were neutral for a good while. Also note, contrary to what some of our generals wanted, we did not continue up into Moscow. Because of that inaction the Soviet Union inflicted half a century of injustice costing millions of lives. Evil was let stand. China, which was nominally neutral, fell to communism and has committed it's own evils. WW3, the Cold War, was really very weird as wars go, being fought through proxies. And WW4, the ever ill named War on Terrorism, when faced with a clear threat in their own back yard has most nations of Europe pretending really hard that it's not happening or trying to appease the muslims in their own countries and the middle east. In the real world, people are basically fine if you confine your evil to your own borders. It's when you start exporting it that some people take notice. Some. Most fall back on pretending nothing's wrong, appeasement, and half measures. |
| Krash12-18-06, 05:44 PM | The real world isn't the Realms. Drawing analogies between the two is always imperfect. -- George Krashos |
| dutch20612-19-06, 10:53 AM | What bothers me most about the realms is the way Kara-Tur got shuffled off to Buffalo when the Oriental Adventures rules came out. They were completely ignored in favor of L5R, which isn't even a WOTC property any more. All that potential for expanding the Realms....squandered. |
| GothicDan12-20-06, 10:07 AM | "Since the end of WW2 it has had the US military umbrella over it formalized through NATO. Simply put, NATO was to keep Russia out, Germany down and America in. This effectively removed the military option from the countries of Europe to sort out their differances. This was truly historic. Because the military option was no longer there cooperation eventually became the rage. The European Coal and Steel Community became the European Economic Community which eventually became the EU. This would not have occurred had it not been for the American Military umbrella. During the Cold War the countries of Europe continued to feel important due to it being the front line in the conflict. Since the end of the Cold War, however, Europe's relevance to the world stage experienced a corresponding decline which features in it's ongoing psychology. Part of what has since fueled deeper EU integration and expansion is the need to wield more weight on the world stage (i.e. relevance) and provide a counter weight to the US (their words not mine) Europe is currently dealing with the downsides of socialism (including a mediocre at best economy), integration (good, bad, painful, and ugly), a negative birthrate, and muslim immigrants who are not integrating into their host countries nearly as well as their counterparts in America. In the next 20 years you can look forward to the integration into the EU of the rest of the Balkins, Ukraine, and the rest of Eastern Europe. Also watch as they deal with the muslim integration, that should be especially painful." There you go, a cohesive story for the whole. Individual flavors will vary but those are the big elements that all of Europe is dealing with. That's history and politics. Not theme (to me, at least). Theme is culture more than anything else. None of the World Wars can be characterized like that. WW1 was a mess of alliances and countries pursuing their own interests. In short, it was a tragedy. In WW2 many nations threatened by it, including the US, were neutral for a good while. Also note, contrary to what some of our generals wanted, we did not continue up into Moscow. Because of that inaction the Soviet Union inflicted half a century of injustice costing millions of lives. Evil was let stand. China, which was nominally neutral, fell to communism and has committed it's own evils. WW3, the Cold War, was really very weird as wars go, being fought through proxies. And WW4, the ever ill named War on Terrorism, when faced with a clear threat in their own back yard has most nations of Europe pretending really hard that it's not happening or trying to appease the muslims in their own countries and the middle east. In the real world, people are basically fine if you confine your evil to your own borders. It's when you start exporting it that some people take notice. Some. Most fall back on pretending nothing's wrong, appeasement, and half measures. That's what I was inferring. |
| kelcimer12-22-06, 11:32 AM | History, politics, AND social changes. These are the things that are common denominators for Europe. Europe is on the path to a more unified culture and these are things that (in dealing with) will get them there. I find it odd you don't consider any of that to contribute to the "theme" of Europe, but to each their own game. Meh. I get what you were trying to say on the other point, but I don't believe it was accurate as a statement within itself, nor as an explaination of why overt power plays are not done in the Realms. |
| GothicDan12-22-06, 11:45 AM | History, politics, AND social changes. These are the things that are common denominators for Europe. Europe is on the path to a more unified culture and these are things that (in dealing with) will get them there. I find it odd you don't consider any of that to contribute to the "theme" of Europe, but to each their own game. Meh. They certainly DO contribute. But, for example, the THEME of France, to many, would be romance, art, intrigue, and the like... Which cannot be said for all Europe in general. The THEME of Planescape is "belief is power," the THEME of Dragonlance is a group of heroes on the edges of a flood of darkness, the THEME of Spelljammer is crazy space exploration, the theme of Eberron is pulp-noir action fantasy. FR, like Europe, has no huge overriding "theme" like the above settings do, which is one of the reasons I like it for what it is (just like I love Planescape and Dragonlance for what they are, for different reasons). Historical events (I consider politics and social changes to fall into the same category, since without politics and society, history wouldn't happen) contribute to help promote these themes, from a purely literary/gaming point of view, but it does not define them. The THEME of Germany, many might say, would be a group of very individualistic people who have come together to form a national pride; very lawful, very ambitious, and very rigid in some ways. That's very different than the theme of, say, a French RPG. I get what you were trying to say on the other point, but I don't believe it was accurate as a statement within itself, nor as an explaination of why overt power plays are not done in the Realms. Ah. I still do, but we don't all read the same thing from the same material, eh? |
| Dexter_Blacktyde12-22-06, 12:30 PM | I'm not quite getting what theme we're talking about here. I don't see how Europe as a whole has a theme, a feel - neither do the FR for that matter -, but I certainly get a flavor from Italy or France or Britain in the various historical ages. (This "theme" is made up of little banalities and cultural differences, by the way. Medieval France or Britain weren't all that different.) Same with the FR. Many (not all) countries of Faerûn have a feel, but Faerûn as a whole...? DB |
| Faraer12-22-06, 12:44 PM | Oh yes; it's the reason I like the setting. Can't you see the difference between the feel of Middle-earth and the Hyborian Age and Bas-Lag? It's in everything, from the names, how people think and speak, the magic, the assumptions behind the worldbuilding. There's a complex of themes, too, in the Realms as a literary construct, though no single overriding one. |
| GothicDan12-22-06, 12:55 PM | That was my point. Faerun itself has no driving theme behind it, and that in large part, to me, makes it feel less contrived than some other settings. (That doesn't really apply to Planescape or Spelljammer, since they're... Well, ENTIRELY contrived, but in a good sort of way.) A lot of people seem to deride Faerun for being a "mish-mash" of unrelated things. What I'm trying to say is that they're related, historically and culturally, but no, they're not all "thematically" similar to one another... And in my opinion, that's a very good thing. A whole world that is constantly under threat of impending doom is pretty boring, in my opinion... And it's one of the reasons I had come to dislike the World of Darkness as it used to stand. I've injected a healthy dose of balanced brightness into my own game, so it feels more 'fantastic,' but still a little gritty. Gothic-punk isn't my cup of tea, but the system is awesome. |
| Derren S.12-22-06, 01:05 PM | A whole world that is constantly under threat of impending doom is pretty boring, in my opinion... Well Faerun is constantly under under the threat of impending doom. If not then there would be nothing to do for teh PCs as higher level NPCs can do the quests instead of them. |
| GothicDan12-22-06, 01:08 PM | But the impending dooms are much more on personal levels, to me, at least. There's rarely events that draw in ALL NPCs of the continent... If any. Very different than, say, the War of the Lance. |
| ShadezofDis12-22-06, 01:14 PM | But the impending dooms are much more on personal levels, to me, at least. There's rarely events that draw in ALL NPCs of the continent... If any. Very different than, say, the War of the Lance. Yep. I'm a real big fan of the "save the village of 500 people whom you know" game than the "save the whole world from DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM" game. Scale back the game, you'll find that things still work very well. (note: that's not to anyone in particular *g*) |
| GothicDan12-22-06, 01:20 PM | Indeed! Working up to such a level can be fun, though. But just throwing it in right away - save the world, now! - is quite boring to me. I'd rather start out at low level and spend 10 years (in real life) working up to Epic, and THEN saving the world. And then probably retiring the PC in one form or another, or possibly moving on to the Outer Planes. |
| kelcimer12-29-06, 02:29 PM | They certainly DO contribute. But, for example, the THEME of France, to many, would be romance, art, intrigue, and the like... Which cannot be said for all Europe in general. You point to the speciffic flavor of France(which should also include making ingratitude a point of national pride). If you compare each European country to each other you see all these flavors, but if you were to compare them all to oriental states suddenly the commonalities step forward. Certainly there has to be enough in common both culturally and socially for the EU to happen. I think I get what you mean by theme. You want one sentence or phrase to sum it up. Okay. The driving Theme of Europe is one of cooperation, unification, and the struggle with all that entails. The Theme of the World is the struggle for enlightenment, freedom, and human rights from the time of the Greeks to Today. The Theme of Faerun is a bunch of people and gods all working against each other so that nothing gets done - not even a decent civilization because every land is a frontier region! I don't think it's much of a theme but it does sum up the Realms doesn't it? It's what you get when you put together a world like Faerun was. |
| GothicDan12-29-06, 03:09 PM | The Theme of Faerun is a bunch of people and gods all working against each other so that nothing gets done - not even a decent civilization because every land is a frontier region! I don't think it's much of a theme but it does sum up the Realms doesn't it? It's what you get when you put together a world like Faerun was. ... Netheril, Cormanthyr, Aglarond, Cormyr, Mulhorand, Calimshan, etc... I really have to say I immensely disagree with you, here. |
| Derren S.12-29-06, 06:57 PM | ... Netheril, Cormanthyr, Aglarond, Cormyr, Mulhorand, Calimshan, etc... Now which of those countries you listed is (was) not constantly attacked by orks, goblins and other uncivilized races? If they are (were) no frontier regions as kelcimer puts it, they would have a stable border and would have pacified their terrotiry. But as they still have problems with marauding orks and undiscovered ruins (including kobolds etc.) imo its sensible to call them frontier region. |
| Dark Wizard12-29-06, 09:31 PM | The driving Theme of Europe is one of cooperation, unification, and the struggle with all that entails. The Theme of the World is the struggle for enlightenment, freedom, and human rights from the time of the Greeks to Today. While I like being optimistic, those statements seem a bit overly positive. |
| Dark Wizard12-29-06, 09:33 PM | Now which of those countries you listed is (was) not constantly attacked by orks, goblins and other uncivilized races? If they are (were) no frontier regions as kelcimer puts it, they would have a stable border and would have pacified their terrotiry. But as they still have problems with marauding orks and undiscovered ruins (including kobolds etc.) imo its sensible to call them frontier region. Under a similar argument, we could say the US, Europe, and many other first- world, industrialized, and well developed nations are still frontier regions. |
| Derren S.12-30-06, 05:09 AM | Under a similar argument, we could say the US, Europe, and many other first- world, industrialized, and well developed nations are still frontier regions. So? Why? Because of terrorists? Compared to what goes on in Faerun terrorism is nothing. Also there is a difference between terrorists and rampaging bands of babarians. |
| GothicDan12-30-06, 12:24 PM | Derren, are you serious in your statement that there's no difference between terrorists and barbarians? I hope not, because if you are, you show an IMMENSE lack of knowledge regarding any sort of real-world tactics, politics, and ethics. The ONLY reason why there's ANY sort of political stability around now a days is due to nuclear weaponry and an immense, international fear of them literally blowing EVERY civilization off the face of the planet (NOT just those in the conflict). |
| Derren S.12-30-06, 12:58 PM | Derren, are you serious in your statement that there's no difference between terrorists and barbarians? I hope not, because if you are, you show an IMMENSE lack of knowledge regarding any sort of real-world tactics, politics, and ethics. The ONLY reason why there's ANY sort of political stability around now a days is due to nuclear weaponry and an immense, international fear of them literally blowing EVERY civilization off the face of the planet (NOT just those in the conflict). Ehm, I do have said that there is a big difference between babarians and terrorists and therefor you can't compare the current europe and US to the FR countries. And its not that FR doesn't have their own nukes (AKA high level wizards). Lets clarify, I agree with kelcimer statement that nearly all nations in the FR can be called frontier country because they are unable to keep orks and other babarians out of their country and generally have problems with keeping order within their own borders and you can't simply say that europe and the US would be frontier countries too then because terrorism and marauding ork bands are two totally different things. @Dark Wizard Or do I misinterpret what you posted? |
| Alediran12-30-06, 02:57 PM | Haalrua doesn't have orc problems |
| GothicDan12-30-06, 04:22 PM | He meant that purely aggressive threats, internal or external, does NOT make something a frontier land. WW II was FULL OF VIOLENCE, but none of the countries involved were really 'frontiers.' |
| Dexter_Blacktyde12-30-06, 04:52 PM | Splitting hairs won't yield a result, I'm afraid. I trust everybody understands what the other one is trying to say, yes? DB |
| GothicDan12-30-06, 05:45 PM | I certainly hope so. :) Though I'd argue and say that, in anything, splitting hairs CAN be extremely useful. Only people who don't see the major empirical differences that can arise in such things call 'splitting hairs' a bad thing. Sure, it CAN be bad, but being precise in labels can also be very useful, at times. For instance: I don't consider the above lands to be 'frontier' lands. Others do. Splitting hairs is what lets us decide the definition of 'frontier.' I think we disagree on it, and that's where the argument is coming from. :) |
| Dexter_Blacktyde12-30-06, 05:55 PM | Anyway, I don't see that this is going anywhere. Just a hunch ;) DB |
| GothicDan12-30-06, 05:58 PM | Point taken. ;) |
| MarkusTay6312-30-06, 11:34 PM | I'm sure this has been mentioned numerous times, but it is the 'inconsistancy' of Geneology/Geography that drives me batty. I love the Realms but, C'mon, how many different regions are based on Middle-Eastern Culture? 5? 6? maybe more? and I'm not talking countries, I'm talking about REGIONS located FAR apart. They're spread from the border of kara-Tur all the way to the Sword coast. You have old Empires and Calimshan, then you have Zahkara waaaay down to the South, then you shoot AL THE WAY North again to find the Bedine. The Golden Waters people seem to be a near mid-Eastern culture (mediterranean)... why even Sembians wear turbans! The explanation for all this? Egyptians ---------------------------- "Errr... there was this portal, see..." Bedine --------------------------------"Umm..there was this portal, see..." Rauthym as ancestors of the Rashemi---"Ahhh..there was this portal, see..." This place has got more doorways then Sigil!!! I say we round up all them nasty Arab-types and dump them in one area. Other then that one glaring flaw, the Realms are perfect. (oh... and get rid of that tree....:yuck: bring back the wheel.) |
| Herr Doktor12-31-06, 01:04 AM | Hmm, I'd say something that has been annoying me lately, as I read through the various class book series (the priests, the rogues, the fighters) is that I really really dislike it when a novel deals with nice juicy plot hooks provided in source books. The Lady of Poison priest book would be a good example, though, that book doesn't quite wreck things. My players who are Realms fans often read the novels, and the incorporation of plot hooks provided from the source books that I may have been planning on using at some point annoys me a bit. |
| kelcimer01-02-07, 11:30 PM | In order for a nation to not be a frontier nation it needs to have pretty much all borders be with other nations. A state that the only way for them to expand is war with other nations. As it stands, nearly every nation in faerun has room to expand. The only exceptions to that are Var the Golden and Altumbel but they both just happen to be on penninsulas. I totally don't understand the idea of Amn having colonies in maztica. If it has that much excess people then why hasn't Amn expanded to the Orsraun mountains? The only checks on American expansion were land being claimed by someone else (France, Spain, Britain) and by a low population of locals. You could say the indians were the equivelant of orcs. Russia, Canada, and Australia were able to expand in large part due to the fact that hardly anyone was there. All over Faerun there are places next to nations where there is hardly anybody. In this encyclopedia that I have it shows the changing borders of Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire. The borders ran all over the place. That's should be more what Faerunian history should look like, but instead the nations stay the same size for ages. Eberron actually has a decent civilization. You have nations bumping up against each other left and right. There you have regions within a nation that are frontierish, but the countires as a whole there are not frontier regions. |
| Dark Wizard01-03-07, 01:28 AM | In order for a nation to not be a frontier nation it needs to have pretty much all borders be with other nations. A state that the only way for them to expand is war with other nations. As it stands, nearly every nation in faerun has room to expand. Just because a country doesn't claim an area, doesn't mean it's free land up for grabs, especially in a fantasy setting where the stuff lurking in the unclaimed land can typically clean out a small army and sometimes even likes eating the troops for lunch. Then again, as long as someone or something lived in those areas, no nation in Faerun or the real world was ever a frontier nation. The only exceptions to that are Var the Golden and Altumbel but they both just happen to be on penninsulas. Tethyr borders only other nations, as does Calimshan if you consider city-states national entities. Sembia as well. Impiltur should be too. I believe Mulhorand is surrounded entirely by other nations. Even Cormyr as well now, since the Shadovar took up the northern Anauroch area. I totally don't understand the idea of Amn having colonies in maztica. If it has that much excess people then why hasn't Amn expanded to the Orsraun mountains? You honestly believe founding colonies is about overpopulation? I really doubt the reason the Spanish Conquistadors and the Pilgrims/Puritans/Quakers came over because they felt Spain and England didn't provide them with enough elbow room? They came for gold, glory and god in the case of the Conquistadors. The Pilgrims and the like came for religious freedom, getting to decide how their society should be and not what the King of England or whatever ruler/lord/neighbor/social trend thought it should be. Then there was the concept of Merchantilism, colonies were just dummy economic entities still controlled by the main country, ideally filled with eager colonists willing to gather raw materials in exchange for the finished goods of the mother country, for the good of the mother country. And, every other country did it, so everyone had to do it to keep up. The only checks on American expansion were land being claimed by someone else (France, Spain, Britain) and by a low population of locals. You could say the indians were the equivelant of orcs. Russia, Canada, and Australia were able to expand in large part due to the fact that hardly anyone was there. All over Faerun there are places next to nations where there is hardly anybody. Hardly anyone except half the critters in the Monster Manuals (all four of them (soon to be five) plus the Fiend Folio, Monsters of Faerun, various monsters and beings mentioned in various books here and there). Not to mention the usual petty kingdoms, bandits, mages, etc. In this encyclopedia that I have it shows the changing borders of Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire. The borders ran all over the place. That's should be more what Faerunian history should look like, but instead the nations stay the same size for ages. Right, Cormyr didn't annex Tilverton within the last generation, or found the kingdom itself upon several smaller kingdoms over the course of its thousand year history. Sembia didn't expand into and build it's capital on a former Dale. Mulhorand didn't just take over half of Unther, and it never lost direct control of Murghom and Semphar and switched the situation every few centuries. An Ogre-mage never suddenly conquer half of Amn. Two Amnish cities didn't just switch allegiance to Tethyr. Calimshan has never extended beyond its own borders to win and lose such territories as the Lake of Steam and the Border Kingdoms a half dozen times over the last few millennia. Just to name a few things that never happened in the Realms, to clear the board and support your argument of course. :rolleyes: C'mon now. I'll grant you, FR does have "frontier" regions and it has an odd fascination with city-states, but you can't look at a current map of Faerun and say it never changed because that's how it's always been. The borders haven't even stayed the same in its 20 year publication history (roughly miniscule 15 Realms years passing since). Heck, there's a map in Lost Empires of Faerun that shows you how things were near the fall of Netheril. |
| GothicDan01-03-07, 02:07 AM | And that was only around 1,500 years ago. Cormyr was once an ELVEN Realm! The forest of Cormanthyr was once MANY times its size, and comprised of half a dozen kingdoms that LATER joined to form Cormanthor... |
| MarkusTay6301-03-07, 04:03 AM | <snip>I believe Mulhorand is surrounded entirely by other nations. Even Cormyr as well now, since the Shadovar took up the northern Anauroch area.Most of what you said in your statement is correct (kudos for remembering there is actually a nation to the East of Teythr - Erlkazar). However, You forgot that the Shaar borders Mulhoarand, and although it is chock full of indegenious peoples it is not a cohesive nation. Also, There is a section to West of Cormyr (below Anauroch) and to the North (the Dales) wich aren't part of any nation, and I would still consider the Dales as one of the largest frontier areas in the heartlands. Like the Old American West, there are plenty of towns, but between them the only law is your swordarm. I do agree with the other poster though that the borders are not as fluid as real world Europe. Vast amounts of territory used to be swapped between France and England, and realistically the same should be happening between Sembia and Cormyr. Many borders shifted by large amounts in what could be considered the 'ancient' period (Calimshan, Mulhoarand, etc), but in the more recent 'modern' Realms the border are fairly stagnant, at least in the Heartlands. Probably the worst violater of real-world politics is Dambrath. They've had some border skirmishes with Halruaa and Luiren, but they have NO neighbor to their North. It just seems to go against the Drow mindset to not want to expand their territory and power base, ESPECIALLY against the halflings! Luiren keeping Dambrath at bay is as silly as Rashemen holding off Thay for so long, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless the foriegn policy of Faerun is much more advanced then their tech level, and there is a very intricate system of alliances and handshaking behind closed doors we are unaware off. That would leave the political situation much closer to our own modern world, where powerful nations do not over-run weaker ones for fear of reprisal. I don't really see that reflected in the Realms lore, but it might explain why so many greedy nations hang-back, as it were. |
| BadCatMan01-03-07, 04:21 AM | The issue is rather complex in a D&D world. It is possible for one high-level hero to hold off an army and stop an empire from taking over a tribal backwater. One man can make a difference here. |
| kelcimer01-03-07, 09:41 AM | Tethyr borders only other nations, as does Calimshan if you consider city-states national entities. Sembia as well. Impiltur should be too. I believe Mulhorand is surrounded entirely by other nations. Even Cormyr as well now, since the Shadovar took up the northern Anauroch area. Cormyr has plenty of room to expand to the West. It is still trying to settle the land to the East of that body of water I can't recall the name of. Unless the Shadovar have pushed up against the stonelands (which Cormyr has nominally claimed for ages) I wouldn't call that a border. Calimshan has those mountains above it and the Forest of Mir and it's entire Eastern border as frontier area. Tethyr has Amn to the north and Calimshan to the south, but it has that entire Eastern Border to expand into. Mulhorad has nothing south of it until you hit Luiren. Again lots of room. Hardly anyone except half the critters in the Monster Manuals (all four of them (soon to be five) plus the Fiend Folio, Monsters of Faerun, various monsters and beings mentioned in various books here and there). Not to mention the usual petty kingdoms, bandits, mages, etc. I don't buy it. Organization beats disorganization. When you have the resources of a nation to devote to taming an area, a miscellaneous collection of monsters, bandits, and odd mages who don't work together will not stop you. Will finish later when i got time. |
| GothicDan01-03-07, 11:05 AM | You can't apply THIS much real world analysis to Faerun, I don't think, because it comes down to magic. Just as, as much as I'd like to apply physics to Realmspace, I know it doesn't always work... But you know what? I just realized this is a useless statement and no one's going to change their mind. So, nevermind. |
| kelcimer01-03-07, 12:20 PM | You can't apply THIS much real world analysis to Faerun... Why not? The best of fiction has one foot planted firmly in reality. ...because it comes down to magic. A better explaination, I think, is that it's due to the disorganized assortment of gods, how the gods in the Realms manefest historically, and the gods collective stupidity. Dambrath? My nominal explaination for them is that theyhave had the odd encounter with Halruaa and Luiren over the centuries, but nothing approaching war. The various powers have devoted their energies towards dominating their peers and shaping society to their liking thus being a bit too insular to get with the expansion. I also factor in that the state religion in of the Goddess of Pain. I figure that she is shortsighted in being happy enough to have her very own nation and delights in having as much control as she does over that many people. That filters though her clergy that is only the government. Is that a good explaination? No. A goddess should not be that short sighted, but it's a nominal explaiation for something that was added to the realms in a piecemeal fashion. Which, when you get right down to it, everypart of the Realms is a piecemeal addition. Why is Waterdeep over there? Because in Ed's original game he needed a big city 'way over there'. He threw together the Western Heartlands because in order for Waterdeep to be 'way over there' he needed something in between for it to be so. The history was invented later. Gradually the world expanded. At each step of the way it was a matter of "Well, we need some mountains, some plains and some rivers and a bunch of wilderness for baddies to come out of." I'm sure it wasn't phrased that way, but that's what the realms reflects. Considering the Realms place in gaming history, we should be surprised if anything more coherent came out of that era. There is a learning curve for building settings. Eberron moves us forward in seeing how coherant a setting can be. Personally, I don't like the god setup of Eberron and I don't want to get as invested in another setting as much as I am with the Realms so I'm not going to use it, but I do recognize and enjoy the fact that it does move expectations forward. In looking at Eberron I've realized and understood flaws in the Realms. It doesn't mean I enjoy the Realms any less. It just means that I'm not looking at it with rose tinted glasses. |
| GothicDan01-03-07, 12:31 PM | Again, nevermind. Like I said, different conclusions drawn from similar material. :) I've always equated the current Realms more to modern politics, myself. That includes warfare. And to me, Eberron probably feels like the most contrived of settings BECAUSE it was so clinically made. History doesn't function in nice little logical packets all the time. No one's wearing rose-tinted glasses here. Just different opinions. |
| MarkusTay6301-03-07, 01:55 PM | Tethyr has Amn to the north and Calimshan to the south, but it has that entire Eastern Border to expand into.Except for this little part, you pretty much re-itereated what I said. There IS a nation to the East of Tythyr called Erlkazar, so Tethyr is locked in. It's not shown on the large Faerun maps for some reason, but is on the map that came with Lands of Intrigue (available for free download). Amn, however, has TONS of room to expand into, and the fact that no one occupies The Greenfields, Giants Plain, and The Shining Plain just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. All these greedy powerful nations nearby and no one can found a nation between Amn and Cormyr? I know some have tried in the past, but usually its just a group of adventurers or a mercenary company. Now, if a nation like Thay or Mulhoarand sent thousands of troops they could easily start setting up fortified towns and settlements. In fact, the halfling that set up the town of Greenest probably makes more sense then half the stuff in the FRcs. I wish her new 'kindom' well (although all it takes is one author with no imagination to latch onto that plot hook and 'Nuke it' for the rest of us). :( |
| Blackheart01-03-07, 01:59 PM | Just throwing in my two cents, here... I bother me about the Forgotten Realms all the time. It's always "Man, you better get with working on your campaign if you want that hook/npc/etc. fleshed out for the next session." or "That came across as a little weak/over the top..remember to work on that." or something else entirely. Blackheart's a jerk. Always riding my back. Gosh. I have other things to do, ok! Like...post here and sleep...work, too. *goes to work on campaign* |
| Faraer01-03-07, 02:58 PM | The best of fiction has one foot planted firmly in reality.There's a wide gap between that and saying that the Realms should work according to our-world norms, which it straightforwardly does not.the gods collective stupidity.Where do you see this?Which, when you get right down to it, everypart of the Realms is a piecemeal addition. Why is Waterdeep over there? Because in Ed's original game he needed a big city 'way over there'. He threw together the Western Heartlands because in order for Waterdeep to be 'way over there' he needed something in between for it to be true.We don't know to what extent that's so...The history was invented later....and it does not imply this at all. Most artistically and commercially successful secondary worlds are accreted, not created top-down, and there's no reason to assume accretions are inadequately considered.It just means that I'm not looking at it with rose tinted glasses.You're speculating well beyond the evidence. |
| MarkusTay6301-03-07, 03:25 PM | The Gods are collectively stupid, but no more so then their 'real-world' counterparts (Egyptian Pantheon, Greek Pantheon, Norse pantheon, etc). Try to think of the Realms gods as 'powers', not true Gods. They are incredibly powerful petty, bickering, spiteful beings, but not gods. Ao is closer to a true god, but even he has a boss. In my cosmology there is at least two layers between Ao and 'GOD'. I look at magic as the real World equivalent of powerful weapons, like missiles, tanks, jets, and even Nukes. Since these are the things that keep us from destroying each other today, then my assumption is correct that the political flavor of the Realms is far more sophisticated then a normal medieval tech level allows. You have to find real world equivalents in order to draw conclusions, because we only have our world and human behaviour to draw on. If we ever do find aliens then maybe we will have new culturally based ideas, but for now we have to play with the tools at hand. |
| Faraer01-03-07, 05:26 PM | Again, what sources do you get that impression of the gods from? |
| MarkusTay6301-03-07, 06:12 PM | My brain. Also, Earth mythologies often had beings 'above the Gods', such as the Titans. Since several FR gods are drawn from Earth sources then it is only fair to ssume that this is still the case. Also, I don't buy the common conception that Ao was talking to the 'DM' at the end of the ToTs. I think Wizards just wanted to save themselves the headache of fanboys begging for 'STATS'. As it is they keep wanting stats for Ao... :rolleyes: Besides, I really don't have to explain my opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs. Suffice it say after reading the ToT the gods appear to me as a bunch of numb-nutz. |
| Faraer01-03-07, 06:15 PM | I was wondering what you read that led you to that opinion. OK, the Time of Troubles. The depiction of the gods in the Avatar novels is literary licence: it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them. |
| summerstar01-03-07, 08:02 PM | My concerns with both the high-level NPCs such as the Seven Sisters and with the dieties of Toril could be addressed by an improved revised epic rules set. Faerun would be a fine setting for epic play due to the high-magic presence of so many wizards of substantial power. Instead of this being a weakness for the setting, it could well be a strength for Faerun as an epic setting. |
| Dark Wizard01-03-07, 09:49 PM | Cormyr has plenty of room to expand to the West. It is still trying to settle the land to the East of that body of water I can't recall the name of. Unless the Shadovar have pushed up against the stonelands (which Cormyr has nominally claimed for ages) I wouldn't call that a border. West past the Stormhorns into the Far Hills? They probably could, though the presence of Darkhold there means heavy Zhent activity. While Darkhold is far from Zhentil Keep, it's still under control of those forces. (However, I think Cyric's forces have taken the hold over, so the situation might have changed.) If Cormyr goes east, it runs into Sembia and the Dalelands. Apparently, Shade is involved in some activities against Cormyr judging by the destruction of Tilverton, and potentially hinted by the upcoming mega-adventure module which may address that issue more. Calimshan has those mountains above it and the Forest of Mir and it's entire Eastern border as frontier area. If you look at the regional map, Calimshan claims those areas, so they're nothing more than what you mentioned about Eberron's nations with frontier areas within their borders. It's border stops short of Mintar, which is an independent city state under Banite control. So there are no open, unclaimed frontier areas around Calimshan. What's with the double standard, this sort of thing is fine for Eberron, but if it happens in FR you criticize it? Tethyr has Amn to the north and Calimshan to the south, but it has that entire Eastern Border to expand into. Though the 3e maps omits it, Erlkazar is the kingdom to the East, it used to be part of Tethyr but drifted away politically during the Interregnum. Taking another look at the map, I noticed Aglarond is bordered entirely by other nations. Thesk as well, if you consider the Great Dale a nation. Sembia is surrounded by other nations, thus ideal for the trade that goes on there. Technically the city states of the Vast and the kingdom of Impiltur have no unclaimed frontiers around them. Turmish is ringed by city-states, so there's another one. So really the heavily populated and more devloped nations in Faerun usually are bordered by other nations, or with perhaps one open border with a frontier region, which if you think about it, provides a nation with impetus to actually do something once in a while, thus creating room for adventures. So what's the big deal? Mulhorad has nothing south of it until you hit Luiren. Again lots of room. I forgot about the Shaar. Though, the Shaar is probably an example of land that's just too hard to keep under control, too large and open, but not enough resources to make it really worth while. At least not as enticing as conquering Unther. I don't buy it. Organization beats disorganization. When you have the resources of a nation to devote to taming an area, a miscellaneous collection of monsters, bandits, and odd mages who don't work together will not stop you. That's only if you assume those monsters, bandits and mages are disorganized. Many of those monsters form small nations of their own, part of the reason why the Sythillisian empire formed, why Obould is forming something of an Orc nation in the north. A goblin kingdom provided some of the troops for the Devil Dragon's attack on Cormyr. Much of Faerun has kingdoms and nations in the Underdark, how's that for 3D thinking? :D What is the problem with having a few frontier areas? The whole North was designed as such with a few vital city states serving as home bases for an otherwise open frontier. It helps facilitate adventuring, which is the point of a setting, to provide places for gaming groups to adventure in. It's also not like this was forced on the setting. There's tons of history showing that even places like the North were onces under the control of large empires, but empires come and go. Some places retain an imperial feel more than others, like the Lands of Intrigue and the Old Empires, others don't like the North. Maybe in a few centuries, places like the Silver Marches or Waterdeep will unite the North once again, or they could be swept away in the tides of history. That's part of the setting's draw. The definition of a frontier is entirely arbitrary, depending on who is calling an area a frontier. To the people of large empires like the Romans or the Chinese, anything outside their border could be considered a frontier, despite the large numbers of people living there. People who eventually conquered both empires at various times. Conversely, despite the association between the word frontier and early American history, many of the Indian/Native American groups that the colonists and later the young USA face fought against could be considered nations in the modern sense of the word. In fact, at various times some western powers acknowledged some of these Indian nations in order to make formal negotiations and treaties with them. In this case, America never had a frontier according to the definition you use. |
| Krash01-04-07, 12:04 AM | Probably the worst violater of real-world politics is Dambrath. They've had some border skirmishes with Halruaa and Luiren, but they have NO neighbor to their North. It just seems to go against the Drow mindset to not want to expand their territory and power base, ESPECIALLY against the halflings! Luiren keeping Dambrath at bay is as silly as Rashemen holding off Thay for so long, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Halruaa functions as the de-facto protector for Luiren (they obtain considerable foodstuffs by way of crops etc. from the halflings) and have acted not only against Dambrathi imperialist ambitions, but also against Calishite interests also. As for Thay v Rashemen, the answer is quite simple: Rashemi geography and magic will always prevail against a disjointed, internally warring Thay. This has been made quite clear in the sources. Thay has marshalled its entire strength in a united, cohesive fashion only against external threats such as Mulhorand. It cannot do so when it seeks to further its own national ambitions, simply because it is not a united government or society. -- George Krashos |
| michael the painbringer01-04-07, 02:22 AM | You know ideally it would probably be best if those corporate monkies at WotC and Hasbro kept their hands out of the pot. Where is the thanks for saving a great game from a bankrupt TSR? I played MTG until I got mad at WOTC for implementing a new set every three months. When I found out that WOTC had bought D&D I was mad, until I played 3.0. All I had to say was wow. I have never picked up my 2nd edition stuff since. My major gripe about the Realms is that it wasn't the setting for DDO. Why the hell am I going to pay for DDO when it is inferior to a free Neverwinter Nights? |
| MarkusTay6301-04-07, 02:36 AM | As for Thay v Rashemen, the answer is quite simple: Rashemi geography and magic will always prevail against a disjointed, internally warring Thay. This has been made quite clear in the sources. Thay has marshalled its entire strength in a united, cohesive fashion only against external threats such as Mulhorand. It cannot do so when it seeks to further its own national ambitions, simply because it is not a united government or society.Yes, I understand all of that, but I keep thinking about the Tuigen Horde. Thay diverted the Kha-khans army because Tam proved to them (via divination) that Thay could beat them, albeit at great cost to Thay. I believe the Horde was still at over 200,000 troops when it attacked Thay! The rest of the heartlands united, and only managed to field an army of 30,000! The horde, that could have been beaten by Thay, made mincemeat out of Rashemen. So much so, that a witch had to go beg for help from the west. This means that a united Thay could not only OVERUN Rashemen, but Aglarond and all the rest as well. Any two Zulkirs together could field a force equal to most other kingdoms in Faerun, United they would be unstoppable. That is why it is so hard for me to contemplate. Drow, to whom cooperation is Anethema, banded together to attack Mithril Hall. So why is it a chaotic race can work together but a group of LE wizards can't? It just doesn't make sense. :confused: |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-04-07, 02:37 AM | Where is the thanks for saving a great game from a bankrupt TSR? Heartfelt thanks would be in order if WotC saved the franchise because of sheer love for the game. Because they saved it to make money, our thanks come in the form of bucks. (Or not if we feel the products don't warrant the asking price.) DB |
| michael the painbringer01-04-07, 03:36 AM | I agree the books are a little pricey. I stopped when I had spent over $900 and was still behind in source material. However this is the only game I have not been able to play in three or four years and still love. |
| GothicDan01-04-07, 02:00 PM | Where is the thanks for saving a great game from a bankrupt TSR? They didn't. They used it as a rough basis to make an entirely new game. |
| MarkusTay6301-04-07, 03:50 PM | Does anyone else feel the icey chill that just swept in here? ;) My wallet has not had the decency to say 'Thank You' in over a year. |
| michael the painbringer01-04-07, 07:40 PM | What was so great about 2nd Ed.? THACO sucked, AC sucked, NWP were useless, different classes leveled differently, and I am not even going to go into multiclassing. |
| Derren S.01-04-07, 07:47 PM | People just got used to 2nd Edition, thats why it is great. Some DMs probably liked the freedom they had in 2nd Edition where they were nearly no rules they had to follow and do many things accoeding to their whim. |
| michael the painbringer01-04-07, 09:14 PM | Why do DMs have to follow rules now that it is a newer edition? |
| Derren S.01-04-07, 09:18 PM | They don't have to, but in 2nd Edition many areas were not covered by the rules and needed DM intervention. In 3.X those areas are covered by the rules and players might object when DMs constantly houserule left and right depending on their mood like in 2nd edition. |
| michael the painbringer01-04-07, 09:53 PM | All you have to do with the objecting players is give them the chance to DM and they will go ahead with the houserules just fine. |
| kelcimer01-05-07, 12:26 AM | West past the Stormhorns into the Far Hills? They probably could, though the presence of Darkhold there means heavy Zhent activity. While Darkhold is far from Zhentil Keep, it's still under control of those forces. (However, I think Cyric's forces have taken the hold over, so the situation might have changed.) I have a 2nd ed product detailing the Zhents, including Darkhold. If a nation with the resources of Cormyr and the War Wizards wanted to bring it down they very well could. The penetration the Zhents have had in the region would be quickly thwarted by Cormyr moving its weight to the sunset hills. What's with the double standard, this sort of thing is fine for Eberron, but if it happens in FR you criticize it? It's not a double standard. FR is very much wide open and from what I know about the one continent of Eberron is that all the land is nominally claimed. The same cannot be said of the realms or any one part of the realms. Though the 3e maps omits it, Erlkazar is the kingdom to the East, it used to be part of Tethyr but drifted away politically during the Interregnum. Now that you mention it, I do recall looking at a 2nd ed realms product that detailed that area. Put in three nations there as I recall. But to my knowledge the idea of those nations haven't recieved much in way of support outside of that original product. It should have at least gotten a line on a map and a lable. I don't put a lot of weight on a nation that the FR people are not sure whether it exists or not. Taking another look at the map, I noticed Aglarond is bordered entirely by other nations. Thesk as well, if you consider the Great Dale a nation. Sembia is surrounded by other nations, thus ideal for the trade that goes on there. Technically the city states of the Vast and the kingdom of Impiltur have no unclaimed frontiers around them. Turmish is ringed by city-states, so there's another one. I've already acknowledged Aglarond. The Great Dale is more of a region then anything else. The Dalelands are frontier. I think it actually suggests in the FR Campaign book that all Sembia would have to do to take Tasseldale and Featherdale is walk some troops over. Having actually played the Vast extensively and used extensively The City of Ravens Bluff (best product ever) I can say with more then a little confidence that the Vast is definitely a frontier region. Turmish is surrounded by mountains. There is nothing to suggest that there is real penetration of the mountains between it and the Vilhon Reach (sp?). To the west and north the mountains exist unclaimed and unsettled except by various tribes. That's a frontier region all right. or with perhaps one open border with a frontier region, which if you think about it, provides a nation with impetus to actually do something once in a while, thus creating room for adventures. So what's the big deal? The big deal is that there is no core of civilization, which is rather unbelievable. That's only if you assume those monsters, bandits and mages are disorganized. Many of those monsters form small nations of their own, part of the reason why the Sythillisian empire formed, why Obould is forming something of an Orc nation in the north. A goblin kingdom provided some of the troops for the Devil Dragon's attack on Cormyr. Much of Faerun has kingdoms and nations in the Underdark, how's that for 3D thinking? :D When you have a nation the size of germany next to a bunch of individaul areas the size of townships which are claimed by a few people who do you really think is going to win when it comes to strength of arms? The Sythillisian Empire should never have had the oportiunity to form. And of course Obould could bring together something of an orc nation. Orcs breed fast. Give them a few generations after being mostly killed off then they're ready for a mass slaughter again. Underdark nations are nice, but barring a few examples, they have very little contact with the surface, let alone influence. And it is the surface that we are talking about. What is the problem with having a few frontier areas? ... It helps facilitate adventuring, which is the point of a setting, to provide places for gaming groups to adventure in. I've no problem with a FEW frontier areas, or even a bunch. But when the entire setting is essentially a frontier region I have a problem. It bothers me. Which is why I mentioned it on this of all threads. And this may seem odd to you, but there are as good adventure opportunities in civilized areas as there are in frontiers. In fact, at various times some western powers acknowledged some of these Indian nations in order to make formal negotiations and treaties with them. In this case, America never had a frontier according to the definition you use. Never said you can't have treaties and relations with tribes and other forms of pre-nation type inhabitants. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 12:02 PM | Now that you mention it, I do recall looking at a 2nd ed realms product that detailed that area. Put in three nations there as I recall. But to my knowledge the idea of those nations haven't recieved much in way of support outside of that original product. It should have at least gotten a line on a map and a lable. I don't put a lot of weight on a nation that the FR people are not sure whether it exists or not. It's not featured on the map, it's not featured in the FRCS, so one could assume it doesn't exist, indeed. Erlkazar was supposed to be like Sembia (pre-3e): They outlined it in Lands of Intrigue and said that no further source detail would be published in order to enable the DM to do with it whatever the heck he wanted IIRC. (I featured Erlkazar prominently in the Reclamation of Tethyr; IMC it's now a part of it, even though it's a hardly desirable one.) That's what they said about Sembia; then they fleshed out Sembia and deleted Erlkazar by neglecting to acknowledge its existence. DB |
| Faraer01-05-07, 12:38 PM | Erlkazar has been confirmed to officially 'still exist'. That's almost always the case with things that happen not to have been recently mentioned.If a nation with the resources of Cormyr and the War Wizards wanted to bring it down they very well could.The Black Network is far too decentralized to bring down outright. Moreover, the effort would make Cormyr vulnerable to its many other internal and external enemies. Once more, the Realms has its own dynamics, and I suggest you devote more effort to understanding them -- which in the case of the Zhentarim means more than reading one source. |
| Derren S.01-05-07, 12:42 PM | And where was this confirmed? Considering that there are people who haven't played FR before the 3rd edition, everything not mentioned in the 3rd edition books does not exist. |
| Faraer01-05-07, 12:50 PM | Rich Baker confirmed it, probably on his own thread. Plus it's the setting of Master of Chains, published in 2005. Your other claim is nonsense: the designers treat published Realmslore as canonical regardless of the trivial fact of what D&D edition it happens to correspond to. (And, of course, most of the specific things that exist in the Realms have never been mentioned anywhere.) |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 02:47 PM | Rich Baker confirmed it, probably on his own thread. That he said "it exists" on some thread doesn't mean much to the gaming public. We who are active on these boards are only a fraction of the D&D audience, and only a fraction of this fraction has the time to conduct a Sherlock-Holmes-worthy search for an official mention of Erlkazar on these boards. (Even more so with the lack of a search engine.) If a tree falls in the middle of a huge forest, and no one was there to see it - did it really happen? ;) Imagine a totally blasted George Lucas posting on the official Star Wars boards that midichlorians, if amplified by a factor of a million under the microscope, all look like twelve-legged zebras with Lucas' face, it's technically canon just because he said it. But who cares? I, for example, couldn't care less if WotC says their novels are canon. They're canon because they want us to buy them, but they're not supplements for this RPG. Neither is a single-sentence-mention in a hard-to-find post on these boards. Technically everything an author says is canon; however, the actual question is: How much value do we assign to very obscure mentions outside the RPG products? DB |
| Derren S.01-05-07, 02:59 PM | Careful. Some people here worship every word which leaves Ed Greenwoods mouth.... |
| kelcimer01-05-07, 03:12 PM | Erlkazar has been confirmed to officially 'still exist'. That's almost always the case with things that happen not to have been recently mentioned.The Black Network is far too decentralized to bring down outright. Moreover, the effort would make Cormyr vulnerable to its many other internal and external enemies. Once more, the Realms has its own dynamics, and I suggest you devote more effort to understanding them -- which in the case of the Zhentarim means more than reading one source. I did not mean take down the Zhents in total. I was referring to Darkhold and their influence in the surrounding area. How about you read posts more fully or entertain more benefit of the doubt before you suggest someone is ignorant, eh? |
| Faraer01-05-07, 03:31 PM | My point stands: to make such confident judgements about Cormyr and Darkhold you'd need far more information than has been published, let alone than you've read, as well as a better understanding of the political and magical dynamics of the Realms. Instead you're filling that missing information with inapplicable assumptions from our world. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 03:58 PM | My point stands: to make such confident judgements about Cormyr and Darkhold you'd need far more information than has been published, let alone than you've read, as well as a better understanding of the political and magical dynamics of the Realms. Instead you're filling that missing information with inapplicable assumptions from our world. We've arrived at this point on page 6 of the "How have you changed the Realms?" thread IIRC. My point stands too: If a supplement doesn't make sense, it's not the customer's job to hunt down lots and lots of expensive out-of-print material and spend hours on the WotC and Candlekeep boards; it's the company's job to see to it that the customer doesn't have to make these efforts. As it stands, he shelled out good money and didn't get what he was promised. That's a problem the Realms have always had, now worse than ever: When 4e finally arrives, probably not even 25% of the Realms will have been covered in detail. 3e arrived 2000; now it's 2007, and prominent places like the Dalelands or Cormyr still haven't been covered. Instead we get strange experiments with the regional sourcebooks we're given (which are few and far between to begin with). Isn't it the point of a new edition to stand on its own? If you need the old material anyway - if you're even expected to have access to it -, why even bother? BTW, all you've said would be true if all 2e supplements were free downloads on WotC's site, and if the FRCS pointed the reader to that wealth of information. In that case it would indeed be his responsibility to read up on the stuff before complaining. And sometimes logic and common sense don't have to be inapplicable assumptions from our world. SCNR ;) DB |
| Faraer01-05-07, 04:20 PM | Unfortunately, the needs of detailing the setting are often at odds with both real and imagined commercial imperatives. But of course it would be wonderful if we did have the huge encylopedic volumes Ed always wanted. I think that Wizards' ownership of the Realms comes with the moral responsibility to do it justice. Beyond that, I wouldn't presume to say who ought to do what or whose responsibility it is. But it is the case that if you want to thoroughly understand the Realms -- which isn't by any means needed to DM it -- you do have to put a lot of disparate sources together and read between a lot of lines. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 04:47 PM | Unfortunately, the needs of detailing the setting are often at odds with both real and imagined commercial imperatives. But of course it would be wonderful if we did have the huge encylopedic volumes Ed always wanted. And that's what I don't quite get. Of course TSR's publishing policy lead the company straight to its doom (although there were other factors, too, that sealed its fate); but the biggest RPG in Germany fleshed out its setting so unbelievably extensively that some people complain there's too much (current!) stuff, that there aren't enough uncharted territories, that you automatically contravene canon whatever you do. And this is German language only, no international distribution. FanPro, the company that owns it, is tiny in comparison to WotC, but the latter can't publish enough sourcebooks for their most profitable brand? In seven years they release, I don't know, a fifth of the material FanPro releases in three years? This I don't get. I think that Wizards' ownership of the Realms comes with the moral responsibility to do it justice. Very well put, that's what I think too. Beyond that, I wouldn't presume to say who ought to do what or whose responsibility it is. But it is the case that if you want to thoroughly understand the Realms -- which isn't by any means needed to DM it -- you do have to put a lot of disparate sources together and read between a lot of lines. From a certain point of view that's true, of course. The thing is that you can't view these issues separately. If WotC releases a sourcebook, and someone new to the setting says it sucks in comparison to other RPGs, he has no motivation to look for additional material on the same subject (he paid enough for the sourcebook after all). Isn't it quite sad to see that a plethora of users who have long resigned to the situation point him to OOP material of a different company - that's what happened in the "How have you..." thread and a couple of other threads -, that they even have to do it? Quite embarrassing for WotC, one might say. DB |
| Faraer01-05-07, 07:12 PM | FanPro, the company that owns it, is tiny in comparison to WotC, but the latter can't publish enough sourcebooks for their most profitable brand?The size of Wizards and the profits demanded by Hasbro means that a lot of publishing slots go to non-Realms/Eberron D&D books, and also that each Realms book has to be very broadly targeted to justify its place in the schedule. Some people want local detail, others 'life in Faerûn' material, bits easily inserted into a range of campaigns, adventures, rules toys, etc.In seven years they release, I don't know, a fifth of the material FanPro releases in three years?That would be 40+ big books a year! If that's true, I doubt anyone else is putting out that much.Quite embarrassing for WotC, one might say.You can see why they choose that embarrassment over using publishing resources to keep old products in print, at the likely expense of new-book sales. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 07:46 PM | The size of Wizards and the profits demanded by Hasbro means that a lot of publishing slots go to non-Realms/Eberron D&D books, and also that each Realms book has to be very broadly targeted to justify its place in the schedule. Indeed, and I don't see the Realms well represented in this way. That would be 40+ big books a year! Now, wait a minute, let's break this down. What do we have for the Realms? Silver Marches, Shining South, Dragons of Faerûn, Power of Faerûn, Unapproachable East, Serpent Kingdoms, Player's Guide to Faerûn, Mysteries of the Moonsea (I hesitate to list this thing here), Lords of Darkness, Magic of Faerûn, Lost Empires... uhm... I'm sure one or two escape me at the moment, so let's say that we've got a dozen FR books in over six years. The 4th edition of the RPG I mentioned has already more than thirty in half the time if I'm not mistaken. All right, so it's not a fifth (I didn't actually do the math in my last posting), but nonetheless you see my point. You see, if WotC grants the FR so few books per year and instead chooses to concentrate on the countless novels and the generic crunch they throw at us each month, justifying this lack of support (and the broadness of the products you mentioned) with: "Generic stuff sells so much better, and the customer base for the FR is too small for our tastes, we can't be bothered with it much more than we already are", then I'd like to see them subrogate the rights for a couple of years to another company. The customer base for the German RPG is only a fraction of the Realms' customer base, so I think even a small company can afford to publish at least twice the material WotC publishes for the FR. So it's not glossy paper and color artwork anymore, but it's the content that counts, anyway. Yes, I know, WotC will never agree to forgo the profits of publishing their cashcow material personally, I'm just saying. It doesn't matter anyway, nothing's gonna change. I just think my beef is legitimate. You can see why they choose that embarrassment over using publishing resources to keep old products in print, at the likely expense of new-book sales. At the expense of what? They seem to have stopped publishing regional sourcebooks anyhow ;) No, seriously, if I'm not mistaken you have to be a US citizen to purchase the PDFs. (If that's not the case (anymore), correct me.) And even if that's not the case, you have to have a credit card. I don't, and no one in my circle of friends does, so I assume there are quite a few people who don't have one. (So you can imagine how glad I am that I already own all the material I need.) However, providing the old supplements costs them only what DriveThru wants to earn - all the other costs (payment for the staff, printing etc.) have been paid by TSR, so the money they make out of the old stuff is almost net profit. DB |
| Old Sage01-05-07, 08:33 PM | It's not featured on the map, it's not featured in the FRCS, so one could assume it doesn't exist, indeed. Erlkazar was supposed to be like Sembia (pre-3e): They outlined it in Lands of Intrigue and said that no further source detail would be published in order to enable the DM to do with it whatever the heck he wanted IIRC. (I featured Erlkazar prominently in the Reclamation of Tethyr; IMC it's now a part of it, even though it's a hardly desirable one.) That's what they said about Sembia; then they fleshed out Sembia and deleted Erlkazar by neglecting to acknowledge its existence. DBErlkazar still exists in 3e. It was one of the "realms" to experience changes in location between editions. I'll let Steven explain - "Re: places: a novel free zone erlkazar No, it's still there, whether or not it gets acknowledged on the map or in the Lands of Intrigue listing in the FRCS. At least it's still there in my mind. ;) They just crunched it all into smaller space (and I wasn't around or paying attention when they did this with the main maps of Faerun, so I don't even know the logic or explanation behind the changes). Just remember that world maps for our own world changed multitudinous times over the centuries, so I'd say use whatever maps make you happiest with the Realms and be done with the rest. Steven It is never too late to be what you might have been. (George Elliot/Mary Ann Evans)" When I do have to use 3e maps though... I always recall these words from Steven (again ) about their "poor" detailing - "Chalk it up to Sembian mapmakers or something to overlook their existence, that's all." Additionally, I'd also recommend you read through Steven Schend's replies at Candlekeep, since he was responsible for its creation and has thus, discussed Erlkazar on several occasions. As well, the FIGHTERS series novel Master of Chains by Jess Lebow features parts of Erlkazar -- specifically focusing on the Barony of Ahlarkhem. It also features some of the land's history. The first chapter of Faces of Deception also features Erlkazar. |
| Old Sage01-05-07, 08:37 PM | That he said "it exists" on some thread doesn't mean much to the gaming public. We who are active on these boards are only a fraction of the D&D audience, and only a fraction of this fraction has the time to conduct a Sherlock-Holmes-worthy search for an official mention of Erlkazar on these boards. (Even more so with the lack of a search engine.) If a tree falls in the middle of a huge forest, and no one was there to see it - did it really happen? ;)Erlkazar's been referenced in two "recent" FR novels, and Steven's still got plenty to say about his creation if ever given the opportunity by WotC, or another FR designer uses some of Steven's lore. So yes, Erlkazar is still part of 3e FR. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 08:52 PM | Old Sage, Faraer has pointed out above that Erlkazar is (to whatever extent) official canon, but that's not the point :) DB |
| Old Sage01-05-07, 09:07 PM | You claimed Erlkazar had been "deleted." It clearly hasn't, since it's received attention in recent Realmslore. That's the point. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 09:14 PM | You claimed Erlkazar had been "deleted." It clearly hasn't That's what Faraer pointed out. I didn't know better, I stood corrected. since it's received attention in recent Realmslore. That's the point. That's doubtlessly good to know, but the question is: To what lengths is one expected to go to find out if a country that existed in 2e exists in 3e despite its absence on the map and in the FRCS which might suggest it doesn't exist in the new edition (provided that the one who wants to learn of its fate knows that it has existed to begin with? DB |
| Old Sage01-05-07, 09:24 PM | To what lengths is one expected to go to find out if a country that existed in 2e exists in 3e despite its absence on the map and in the FRCS which might suggest it doesn't exist in the new edition (provided that the one who wants to learn of its fate knows that it has existed to begin with?That would depend upon your level of devotion when studying the Realms. There are also FR novels, informative message boards -- such as Candlekeep and WotC -- and mailing lists. Ask questions. Read sourcebooks and novels. Talk to the designers directly. It all helps when trying to learn more about the Realms. That's what we're all here for. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 09:27 PM | I know the options we all have, I just think having to use them shouldn't be necessary in some cases. See above :) DB |
| Old Sage01-05-07, 09:35 PM | I disagree. As Faraer noted above, WotC only have limited publishing slots, and so only certain aspects of the Realmslore can be treated at any one time. To publish all-encompassing sourcebooks that include every tidbit and slight reference from materials published over the last twenty years would be, not only impossible, but extremely costly also. A fan-based community develops around a campaign setting because people wish to learn more about the setting they love and because they should understand that a world with nearly twenty years of published history is likely going to "forget" a few things along the way. The influx of new writers and game designers, and the departure of older ones, also has an impact. Older areas or Realms tidbits are redefined. New writers develop Realms aspects that may change from what they were previously, or simply push them to the side while newer aspects of the Realms are explored. Publishing attitudes change, and fan-bases grow ever more diverse. The published Realmslore reflects that. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 09:51 PM | As Faraer noted above, WotC only have limited publishing slots, and so only certain aspects of the Realmslore can be treated at any one time. To publish all-encompassing sourcebooks that include every tidbit and slight reference from materials published over the last twenty years would be, not only impossible, but extremely costly also. IMHO what you describe are two extremes at their respective ends of the spectrum. I tried to exemplify that a company with a fraction of WotC's budget can afford to do its system better justice by publishing decidedly more material. (Note: Quantity doesn't automatically equal quality, we're just talking about the basic principle.) That all realmslore that's ever been created cannot get an exhaustive treatment within the span of, say, ten years goes without saying, but most RPGs manage to at least cover all their bases within the lifetime of an edition. If we look at the low number of releases so far (and the fact that the next slots will be taken up by adventures), we can reasonably assume that whenever 4e gets to see the light of day not even half of the map will be covered by more than the very sketchy entries in the FRCS. I'd consider our options a bonus, but I find it strange that they are a necessity, that's all I'm saying. DB |
| Dark Wizard01-05-07, 10:45 PM | I have a 2nd ed product detailing the Zhents, including Darkhold. If a nation with the resources of Cormyr and the War Wizards wanted to bring it down they very well could. The penetration the Zhents have had in the region would be quickly thwarted by Cormyr moving its weight to the sunset hills. Which might open them up to attacks from Zhentil Keep proper, or maneuverings by Sembia, or internal strife such as when Aencar conquered Arabel, or pirates pillaging the coastal cities, etc. Cormyr annexed Tilverton only when it saw that the ideal opportunity presented itself. It's not a double standard. FR is very much wide open and from what I know about the one continent of Eberron is that all the land is nominally claimed. The same cannot be said of the realms or any one part of the realms. It is a double standard, I'm not talking about the generally situation between the Realms and Eberron, I'm speaking of less developed (frontier) areas within the claimed borders of a nation. You liked that about Eberron, but when it happens in the Realms, it becomes just another example of a frontier region. Now that you mention it, I do recall looking at a 2nd ed realms product that detailed that area. Put in three nations there as I recall. But to my knowledge the idea of those nations haven't recieved much in way of support outside of that original product. It should have at least gotten a line on a map and a lable. I don't put a lot of weight on a nation that the FR people are not sure whether it exists or not. It probably should have gotten a mention. Though, no matter which way you say it, it exists for the designers, in the 2e material without any 3e material saying otherwise, and 3e era novels mention it. Tethyr and Calimshan are not frontier nations according to your definition. I've already acknowledged Aglarond. The Great Dale is more of a region then anything else. The Dalelands are frontier. I think it actually suggests in the FR Campaign book that all Sembia would have to do to take Tasseldale and Featherdale is walk some troops over. Having actually played the Vast extensively and used extensively The City of Ravens Bluff (best product ever) I can say with more then a little confidence that the Vast is definitely a frontier region. Turmish is surrounded by mountains. There is nothing to suggest that there is real penetration of the mountains between it and the Vilhon Reach (sp?). To the west and north the mountains exist unclaimed and unsettled except by various tribes. That's a frontier region all right. If you've acknowledged Aglarond, and I've added Tethyr and Calimshan, then your above statement one quote back doesn't hold true. Your definition of frontier seems to change now and again. The Dalelands might feel frontierish, but they're claimed and organized enough to have governments and the whole deal. They even sent representatives to Azoun's Crusade and organized to take down Scardale when it tried to unite all the dales into its own banner, so by your definition, they're no longer frontier areas. Cormanthyr is claimed by the elves as well, thus Sembia borders only other nations. The Vast is frontierish, but claimed by the various city states in that region, so it's technically not a frontier according to your original definition. That is unless you mean something else by frontier. Though a definition that can expand to include just about any situation isn't much of a definition at all. The big deal is that there is no core of civilization, which is rather unbelievable. I hope you mean cores (plural) of civilization, since Earth, which we're presumably all using as the prime example of how history should occur never only had one center of civilization. For the Realms, I would call places like the Lands of Intrigue/Empires of the Shining Sea and the Old Empires centers of civilization. Those areas have seen continuous civilized habitation for several millennia. Seven centuries ago in Realms time it was Cormanthor. Like I said, these things come and go. If you looked at an overview of history, you will notice that every great empire/civilization of Earth was either separated by a decent distance from another equal empire/civilization or two neighboring ones clashed and in a short time one subsumes the other, with the loser usually already in it's latter days. When you have a nation the size of germany next to a bunch of individaul areas the size of townships which are claimed by a few people who do you really think is going to win when it comes to strength of arms? The Sythillisian Empire should never have had the oportiunity to form. Given a reason, those smaller places would unite to confront and quite possibly defeat the larger nation. It happened when Greece faced off against Persia. Before Germany united its neighbors tried to keep them as splintered as possible, when Germany did unite, it became a world power. Reason enough to be careful where you tread. True, as a general rule, the larger the country the stronger their military, but that is far from an absolute. I've no problem with a FEW frontier areas, or even a bunch. But when the entire setting is essentially a frontier region I have a problem. It bothers me. Which is why I mentioned it on this of all threads. And this may seem odd to you, but there are as good adventure opportunities in civilized areas as there are in frontiers. Yes, FR has a bunch of frontier areas, but I already showed that FR isn't just one giant frontier region, even by your odd definition of frontier. How does FR exactly lack civilized areas? Are the multitudes of cities and metropolises in Calimshan and Tethyr not civilized, how about the dozens of large cities that ring the Sea of Fallen Stars? Though you might not like Waterdeep, it's still a metropolis, thus a civilized and very cosmopolitan city. If you're adventuring in the cities, what does it matter if the nation has a border with a frontier? You do realize that some of the largest empires in Earth's history considered their borders on frontiers. The Romans considered the Germanic and Celtic peoples on their borders the frontier. China considered anything beyond the Great Wall a frontier. I'm not sure how that makes them any less civilized. Technicially, in modern times, as I understand the situation (though it has been a few years since I've read up on it), the Kashmir region lies between India, Pakistan, and China. Each of the three claims a piece of the area (or influence at the least), but a piece remains sort of unclaimed, each fearing that officially claiming it would bring about armed conflict with the other two. So does that make China, India and Pakistan frontier nations. Never mind the people who live in Kashmir. Never said you can't have treaties and relations with tribes and other forms of pre-nation type inhabitants. No, I'm not saying that either, I'm saying that technically, what the European powers, the colonists, and later America called the frontier was actually inhabited by some native Americans peoples who were nations by definition. So the American frontier is just a term that European Americans called anything that wasn't part of the colonies or the United States. It's an entirely artificial designation. Just like all of the Moon and Mars are nominally claimed by the various nations of Earth, but it doesn't exactly make them feasible territories at this point. |
| miscellany01-05-07, 10:51 PM | <I’ll let my DM handle this> The omission of an aspect of the setting from current sources where that aspect has been only featured in earlier editions does not indicate that the aspect no longer exists. Previous lore remains valid unless a newer source contradicts or otherwise writes it out of the setting. As far as I know that’s always been the official rule. <That’s my DM wordy as ever!> :) |
| Dark Wizard01-05-07, 10:54 PM | I, for example, couldn't care less if WotC says their novels are canon. They're canon because they want us to buy them, but they're not supplements for this RPG. Neither is a single-sentence-mention in a hard-to-find post on these boards. Technically everything an author says is canon; however, the actual question is: How much value do we assign to very obscure mentions outside the RPG products? DB The Eberron novels are not canon, but I'm pretty sure WotC wants to sell lots of them. Even if novels are not canon, they do offer another source of information all the same. I've heard many Eberron fans say that reading some of the novels gave them a much clearer understand of the atmosphere of the setting. And that's what I don't quite get. Of course TSR's publishing policy lead the company straight to its doom (although there were other factors, too, that sealed its fate); but the biggest RPG in Germany fleshed out its setting so unbelievably extensively that some people complain there's too much (current!) stuff, that there aren't enough uncharted territories, that you automatically contravene canon whatever you do. Heh, people already complain that not enough areas of the Realms are left free for DMs to develop. This despite the abundance of frontier regions we've been discussing for the last two pages. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-05-07, 11:06 PM | The Eberron novels are not canon, but I'm pretty sure WotC wants to sell lots of them. Even if they're not canon, they do offer one source of information. I've seen many Eberron fans say that reading some of the novels gave them a much clearer understand of the atmosphere of the setting. That's the job of the campaign setting, wouldn't you say? Anyway, it's all right to publish novels, there's nothing wrong with that. But the cross-marketing with the Realms is what irks me. "Wanna know what happened in this region / how that important event came to pass? Read the novels, we won't deal with the subject at hand where it belongs - in a supplement. That's where we give you new feats, monsters, items and prestige classes." Heh, people already people complain that not enough areas of the Realms are left free for DMs to develop. This despite the abundance of frontier regions we've been discussing for the last two pages. Well, theoretically there might be people who think Robin Williams isn't hairy enough, but whatever ;) DB |
| Old Sage01-05-07, 11:48 PM | ...but most RPGs manage to at least cover all their bases within the lifetime of an edition.Most campaign settings, with the exception of GH, DL, and the Realms, don't have 20-to-30+ years of published campaign history. Most campaign setting don't have an additional 20 or so years of unofficial lore that's still waiting to be published, like the Realms for example. And there are very few campaign settings that actually try to "cover all their bases" within the lifetime of a standard D&D edition. There were plot hooks and various Realms tidbits introduced in 1e FR that still haven't been followed up, even now in 3e. This is simply because most writers/game designers either don't have the time to fully research decades of Realmslore and/or hundreds of sources in various forms, or merely wish to follow their own course for developing older Realmslore in a new edition which may, unfortunately, miss a little of that previous lore. There are a few, like Eric, Steven, Ed, and Elaine... among others, who make every effort to follow-up on older Realms tidbits -- I offer Steven's Blackstaff novel as an example of well-established FR game designers and writers who have attempted to follow up on (very) old lore. I applaud their skills in this regard, because I can only imagine how difficult it must be, at times, for them. Especially when they have been involved in the development of a campaign setting for so long and strive to maintain the dozens-to-hundreds of plot hooks and other various Realms tidbits they've introduced over the years while still making it relevant to the newer Realmslore of today. Understandably, some things will be missed. But I doubt they're ever truly forgotten. Eric's said this himself with regard to certain aspects of older Realmslore. He's always hanging onto bits and pieces of older lore. And while they may not always be relevant for inclusion in today's Realmslore or have much opportunity to be faithfully explored now, he's always seizing any opportunities whereby they may be included in future FR products and given enough worthwhile attention. I don't expect that FR sourcebooks are always going to be brimming with facts and tidbits introduced 10-to-15 years ago. There's a need for newer Realmslore as well. What I do expect, is exactly what Eric and the other FR designers are, mostly, doing now. Working with the lore and always having those older tidbits on the side where they may eventually, and hopefully, be included in future Realmslore. And, at the same time, I don't expect to learn everything about the Realmslore from what I read in sourcebooks. That's why I've been a member of Candlekeep and WotC for so long, because sometimes I still learn something about the Realms that even I may have missed. That's why I ask FR designers and writers questions at Candlekeep, because I find tidbits and elements of the Realmslore that, while they may not appeal to everyone (and as a result, may not get enough attention in published sources), are aspects that I want to learn more about. That's why I buy DRAGON issues that contain FR articles -- because it's merely another form for Realmslore to be explored. It's also why I read Ed's articles here at WotC. I'm willing to filter through hundreds of sources to find random tidbits, or follow-ups on older lore. For me, it doesn't matter whether that's through a novel, a DRAGON article, or a web-based column. So long as it's Realmslore that's following up older lore, I'll find it. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-06-07, 12:17 AM | Most campaign settings, with the exception of GH, DL, and the Realms, don't have 20-to-30+ years of published campaign history. Most campaign setting don't have an additional 20 or so years of unofficial lore that's still waiting to be published, like the Realms for example. Again, I'm not talking about the whole of FR lore that's ever existed. Naturally there are degrees of importance, and by "covering the bases" I mean "fleshing out all regions". It doesn't matter how old a setting is - most will try to have described at least every region in detail when the next edition looms on the horizon. If there's enough time, they might detail new cultures, publish even more detailed sourcebooks, whatever, but at least the map gets covered. This is not the case with the Realms in the third edition, and I doubt it will be when 4e arrives. I've been playing in the Realms for almost 20 years now, but let's assume for a minute I'm a newbie, I read the FRCS and find the Damara writeup intriguing. I think to myself: "I'd like to know what the designers had in mind with Damara, what's the atmosphere of that place, what are the customs, who is who there, how does this place work?" Little do I know about the unpleasant baron of Morov and his claim to the throne, the scheming Zorth, the importance of Carmathan, who's the Overlord of the King's Road, who gives who a hard time defending Bloodstone Pass, but I like the little I'm offered. "All right", I think to myself, I'll keep Damara in mind for later. The Dales are fleshed out more, so I'll start the campaign there. In a couple of years they'll cover Damara." Seven years later: still nothing, and it doesn't look like the place will get a treatment in this edition, it will remain little more than a page in the FRCS. That's what I mean. This place and many others have not been done justice. I have to hunt down The Bloodstone Lands from 1989 on eBay (shelling out a fortune) or via DriveThru RPG (as long as I live in North America and have a credit card), or I spend countless hours online (if I can afford to do so and have the necessary time for such a venture), finding a tidbit here, finding a tidbit there. I shouldn't have to. I don't expect that FR sourcebooks are always going to be brimming with facts and tidbits introduced 10-to-15 years ago. There's a need for newer Realmslore as well. What I do expect, is exactly what Eric and the other FR designers are, mostly, doing now. Working with the lore and always having those older tidbits on the side where they may eventually, and hopefully, be included in future Realmslore. I applaud their efforts to provide as much Realmslore as they can on Candlekeep; this isn't about them, it's about the company. DB |
| Starchaserva01-06-07, 12:43 AM | Drizzt seems to come up quite a bit on this thread, not that I'm surprised. It seems to be commonplace in D&D, both with people I've met, and on these boards, there's a big group of people who hate Drizzt, and an equal amount who drool over him and the dark elves in general. I personally think he's a great character, and not only have the books he's starred in be some of the best I've read, but he (through RA Salvatore) done a lot to help spread D&D to people who might not other know about it. A friend of mine doesn't even play, and he loves all of Salvatore's work, especially Drizzt. I think the problem is that he's been way to over-exposed, which is probably obvious, same with Drow in general. There's even a sourcebook coming out in a couple of months dedicated solely to them. I think that if Drizzt just went away for a while, like a couple of years, and fanboys lightened up a bit, I don't think some people would dislike Drizzt. Anyway, as for the Realms, I have to agree with the whole, "crap, there's a lot of mega-epic npcs running around", but I think it's the fact that there's so much there other than Faerun and the general "forgotten realms" stuff, but none of the other places, like the Oriental East get as much attention nowadays |
| MarkusTay6301-06-07, 02:22 AM | I have two points, but first I'd like to say I'm not taking any sides. 1 - At least Erlkazar HAS appeared on official maps in the past, Hartsvale NEVER has. But as far as I'm concerned, ITS THERE! I loved the Twilight Giants so much, that I photoshoped my original FR map and added a couple inches to the top... just so I could place it (Its nearly directly NE of Citadel Adbar, on the other side of the Ice Mountains). 2 - Unfortunately, I can almost relate with the dilemma that WotC must go through with balancing their product line. The big problem, as I see it, is that different people EXPECT different things. As much as I would enjoy seeing NEW regional material, I ABSOLUTELY don't want to see anymore 'updates', especially if they had just done the last version in 2e! I can update the stuff myself, I am a big boy now and I'm not afraid of doing a few conversions, and a little internet leg-work to get what I need. What I don't need is to plunk down another $30 for stuff I have ALREADY PAID FOR! Case in point - I have paid for THAY three times already! I own Dreams of the Red Wizards (1e), Spellbound (2e), and Unapproachable East (3e). I realize that they added a few more locales with each iteration, but the information on Thay (the primary reason for buying any of those) is much the same. In fact, the section on Thay in the 1e and 2e sources is WORD FOR WORD identicle! I'm tired of paying for the same source material re-shrink wrapped with Tzass-Tam's latest stats and info on his most recent bowel movement! Just give us something completely new, thats all I ask. rant over. PS - for an example of what I mean see my A book that hasn't been done? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763762) thread. |
| Old Sage01-06-07, 02:42 AM | 1 - At least Erlkazar HAS appeared on official maps in the past, Hartsvale NEVER has.Hartsvale appeared on the map in the Silver Marches accessory. And was also marked on maps in Giantcraft. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-07, 11:33 AM | Lol, so it appeared on a map in its own product? :rolleyes: I knew that, I OWN Giantcraft. I meant a world map. I'm going to have to check Silver Marches though, don't remember seeing it there. If you are right I owe you a beer. :pint: EDIT: Checked, you're right, I never really looked at the map that came with that product. I'll stump you yet, sage. ;) |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-06-07, 11:48 AM | The big problem, as I see it, is that different people EXPECT different things. As much as I would enjoy seeing NEW regional material, I ABSOLUTELY don't want to see anymore 'updates', especially if they had just done the last version in 2e! I can update the stuff myself, I am a big boy now and I'm not afraid of doing a few conversions, and a little internet leg-work to get what I need. Because people expect different things, the product range should have something for everyone, not two books per year that hopefully appeal to as many customers as possible. Of course you can do without regional sourcebooks detailing regions that have been covered before. So can I. But those who started playing in the Realms with the advent of 3.0 / 3.5 can't. Instead of being attended by the company that got them into the Realms, they are pointed to OOP material they may have a hard time to acquire. (And even that is only useful to those who speak English well enough to browse these boards, find the information and eventually tackle a whole book.) And when WotC publishes a regional sourcebook and a customer complains that among the perfunctory information they already knew, feats, spells, monsters and prestige classes there was too little actual lore to cover the place whose name's on the cover, again they get pointed to OOP material, and even an author tells them: "You couldn't reasonably expect it to hold a candle to the old material." If D&D equaled roleplaying, we wouldn't know better. But it's a whole industry, we can compare. A customer base that doesn't even equal a tenth of the FR customer base warrants a much, much more diversified product range, but WotC tells us that more products aren't profitable enough, and we should be happy with those we've got. Am I the only one who finds this strange? My point stands: Much realmslore is terribly hard to come by. (As you can see in this thread: The point that we're even arguing if some locations or whole countries exist and that we have to quote largely unknown tidbits provided by Messrs. Baker and Schend, IMHO speaks volumes.) DB |
| MarkusTay6301-06-07, 01:59 PM | The authors (both source and novel) develop this stuff, but their hands are tied as to how much they are allowed to 'feed us'. The fact that they go out of their way to provide web enhancements, articles at Candlekeep, and info on their own personal websites shows me that THEY care about the Realms as much, if not more, then we do. After all, it's their bread and butter, and I salute them for their efforts. However they, as we, are subject to the whims of 'the man'. In other words, as much as they would love to keep expanding on AND updating every piece of realmslore, they still have to answer to the people who sign their paychecks. That unfortunatey is a large unfeeling corporation, who makes decisions based on charts and sales projections and other things that are so esoteric it would make an archmages head swim. Suffice it to say that they go over-and-above the line of duty when they provide us with 'unofficail' tidbits. weather or not you care to use them is your business. Right now they are still trying to find the 'ultimate solution', something that will never happen. There are many fans (on this site) who have never played D&D, and there are those who play but have never read any novels. And then there are the thousands of shades of grey in between, who also love the Realms. You have one group screeming 'more crunch', and the other begging for 'more fluff'. You can't make a book that does both, even if you make it longer (but that would help). I don't think they'll ever find that 'magic recipe' that makes everyone happy, and creating a seperate book targeted at a specific cross-section of a sub-genre is NOT COST EFFECTIVE. So they do the best they can. Every book I see threads about boil down to three opinions. It was Great, it was okay, and it sucked, and no mater how you slice it, that is the best that WotC employees can hope for. "The needs of the many out-wiegh the needs of the few" ---------------- Mr. Spock ;) |
| Faraer01-06-07, 07:58 PM | ... let's say that we've got a dozen FR books in over six years. The 4th edition of the RPG I mentioned has already more than thirty in half the time if I'm not mistaken. All right, so it's not a fifth (I didn't actually do the math in my last posting), but nonetheless you see my point.I do, but between June 2001 and now I count 18 sourcebooks, 5 adventures (excluding The Red Hand of Doom) and a DM's screen, a solid 4 books per year.You see, if WotC grants the FR so few books per year and instead chooses to concentrate on the countless novels...Which are more profitable than the sourcebooks....then I'd like to see them subrogate the rights for a couple of years to another company.I've advocated this for years, even though there are also major downsides. Hasbro is just not an efficient publisher of world books. I don't think it's out of the question as a possibility.No, seriously, if I'm not mistaken you have to be a US citizen to purchase the PDFs. (If that's not the case (anymore), correct me.)I think that was originally the case, and I may have lied about living in a US state, but it isn't now. Yes, you need a credit card. But they're ridiculously cheap: you're buying a book for less than a pint of beer in the US or Western Europe."Wanna know what happened in this region / how that important event came to pass? Read the novels, we won't deal with the subject at hand where it belongs - in a supplement. That's where we give you new feats, monsters, items and prestige classes."Meanwhile, the novel editors seem to like to keep things moving, focus on just a few characters, etc., rather than treat the Realms in detail and depth! On the other hand, there is some excellent sourcebook work (and will be some during and a lot more after the current schedule clot of adventures), continual new novels, and lore on wizards.com and (through Ed's extraordinary, underappreciated, and perhaps unprecedented efforts) candlekeep.com. Things are neither ideal nor bad. Let's pick our battles.Previous lore remains valid unless a newer source contradicts or otherwise writes it out of the setting. As far as I know that’s always been the official rule.On these boards people have assumed that several things not lately mentioned were deleted from continuity: Erlkazar, the term 'Zhentilar', several gods, longevity magic, links with other worlds, Spelljamming (although that was mentioned), etc. In each case we know they were wrong, because the general rule is as your DM said. |
| kelcimer01-08-07, 12:59 PM | Which might open them up to attacks from Zhentil Keep proper, or maneuverings by Sembia, or internal strife such as when Aencar conquered Arabel, or pirates pillaging the coastal cities, etc. Cormyr annexed Tilverton only when it saw that the ideal opportunity presented itself. *sigh* I'm sorry you think a nation the size of Cormyr with resources to match can't do things very often because "it's a big bad Faerun and it's a crazy place". It is a double standard, I'm not talking about the generally situation between the Realms and Eberron, I'm speaking of less developed (frontier) areas within the claimed borders of a nation. You liked that about Eberron, but when it happens in the Realms, it becomes just another example of a frontier region. I speak from a general impression of Eberron that I've received in looking at the maps and getting a rundown of it's history by a DM. If I am horribly wrong in my impression of Ebberron then I'm sorry. Regardless, I still think my impression is really cool, and I'd like Faerun to be a bit more like that. It probably should have gotten a mention. Though, no matter which way you say it, it exists for the designers, in the 2e material without any 3e material saying otherwise, and 3e era novels mention it. Tethyr and Calimshan are not frontier nations according to your definition. It's really nice and special that it exists for the Designers. Good for them, but it isn't an integrated part of the Realms. It doesn't even get a line on a map. Calimshan does not have firm borders with any nation other then Tethyr, and even that includes a mountain region that neither have penetrated sufficent for there to be a firm border line somewhere in the mountains. If my memory serves, forest of Mir has elves in it, but I wouldn't call that a nation. I'm not seeing firm borders with other nations here to contain Calimshan. Your definition of frontier seems to change now and again. The Dalelands might feel frontierish, but they're claimed and organized enough to have governments and the whole deal. The Dalelands do not constitute a formal nation. They are not even a Confederacy. Individually they do have governments, but they don't quite hit nationhood status except for perhaps Archendale. They are beset on all sides by crazy wilderness. Yeah, they are still frontier territory. I apologize if my my defintion of frontier seems to change. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/frontier Looking at this page it seems that I've confused actual wilderness and frontier. The one seems closest to what I was thinking. "1. a wilderness at the edge of a settled area of a country" The phrase that pops out at me from other definitions is "an undeveloped area". How about "an undeveloped area in or outside the bounds of any political body worth being called a nation." Better? I hope you mean cores (plural) of civilization, since Earth, which we're presumably all using as the prime example of how history should occur never only had one center of civilization. For the Realms, I would call places like the Lands of Intrigue/Empires of the Shining Sea and the Old Empires centers of civilization. ... If you looked at an overview of history, you will notice that every great empire/civilization of Earth was either separated by a decent distance from another equal empire/civilization or two neighboring ones clashed and in a short time one subsumes the other, with the loser usually already in it's latter days. Faerun is slightly bigger then Europe. We are not talking about the distance over an entire world. How can you really have very many "centers of civilization" in such a small area without a Roman Empire, Persian Empire, or China happening? Technicially, in modern times, as I understand the situation (though it has been a few years since I've read up on it), the Kashmir region lies between India, Pakistan, and China. Each of the three claims a piece of the area (or influence at the least), but a piece remains sort of unclaimed, each fearing that officially claiming it would bring about armed conflict with the other two. So does that make China, India and Pakistan frontier nations. Never mind the people who live in Kashmir. Of course not. Those nations have firm borders and the Kashmir problem is a tragic border dispute. There is no doubt that there is a border there between those nations. What is iin doubt is where the border lies. Yes, FR has a bunch of frontier areas, but I already showed that FR isn't just one giant frontier region, even by your odd definition of frontier. How does FR exactly lack civilized areas? What I ment by "one giant frontier region" was that anywhere you are, just throw a stone and you'd hit some frontier. I never disputed that there are civilized areas of Faerun. It was not a lack of civilized areas that I was pointing to, so much as a lack of any kind of core area for civilization to extend from. |
| kelcimer01-08-07, 01:10 PM | The omission of an aspect of the setting from current sources where that aspect has been only featured in earlier editions does not indicate that the aspect no longer exists. Previous lore remains valid unless a newer source contradicts or otherwise writes it out of the setting. I agree with you in principle. Yes, technically it does exist as FR canon, but it's not an integrated part of the realms. |
| kelcimer01-08-07, 01:11 PM | Dexter_Blacktyde Good posts. :) |
| GothicDan01-08-07, 01:25 PM | Faerun is slightly bigger then Europe. We are not talking about the distance over an entire world. How can you really have very many "centers of civilization" in such a small area without a Roman Empire, Persian Empire, or China happening? All of which happened in the past, and we could equate them in Faerun to be: Netheril, Imaskar, Mulhorand, and Cormanthyr... |
| kelcimer01-08-07, 01:29 PM | All of which happened in the past, and we could equate them in Faerun to be: Netheril, Imaskar, Mulhorand, and Cormanthyr... Bull. I'm talking empires here. Something that would span from Tethyr to Unther and leave an impact long after it's gone. I have taken a look at A Grand History of the Realms and looks like there were quite a lot of those 20+ thousand years ago. Not so much in the last 3,000 years though. |
| Derren S.01-08-07, 01:34 PM | Previous lore remains valid unless a newer source contradicts or otherwise writes it out of the setting. As far as I know that’s always been the official rule. Imo not appearing on the current world map (which was not simply copy&pasted) is very contradicting. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-08-07, 02:03 PM | I do, but between June 2001 and now I count 18 sourcebooks, 5 adventures (excluding The Red Hand of Doom) and a DM's screen, a solid 4 books per year. A DM screen and adventures don't inform me about the setting I'm playing in. In my list I forgot to mention Races of Faerûn, Monsters of Faerûn, Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, City of Splendors and Underdark. Adventures aren't sourcebooks, so Mysteries of the Moonsea, City of the Spider Queen etc. don't count. (And if they did, the number of products for the German RPG is easily doubled because they release roughly as many adventures as sourcebooks, sometimes more, sometimes less.) So I come up with 16 sourcebooks in over six years. Neither would I call that impressive, quite the contrary, nor would I say that many of the bases have been covered. The usual WotC problems of filler material, redundancy and crunch-centric orientation aside, the vast majority of the Realms has not been covered in this edition, and people who were not even born when some of those Realms have last been treated are today old enough to vote. Which are more profitable than the sourcebooks. Obviously, but that WotC does have a reason for neglecting the RPG and pushing the novels doesn't change the disproportion. A look at the product roster for 2007 tells me that the Forgotten Realms brand gets a whopping zero sourcebooks, two adventures and *drumroll* seventeen novels. This is so ridiculous, it's not even funny anymore. I think that was originally the case, and I may have lied about living in a US state, but it isn't now. Yes, you need a credit card. But they're ridiculously cheap: you're buying a book for less than a pint of beer in the US or Western Europe. So a European with a credit card can purchase them? That's an improvement over "North America only", and I won't complain about the prices. (It would be nice, though, if DriveThru RPG offered alternative modes of payment, be it PayPal or whatever.) So the material's availability has improved; but there's still the problem that the customer's grasp of English has to be better than average because there are no distributors to translate the material. English has become very common over the past years, and most people can order a Big Mac in English, but few are able to read a whole book, and even fewer are willing to do so. But even if the language barrier wasn't a problem, I still think with the right to publish a setting comes some sort of responsibility to do so. Rereleases would be a compromise. The reprints could be furnished with the WotC and Hasbro logos, print-on-demand would be sufficient, and the overseas distributors would have something to translate. And thanks, kelcimer :) DB |
| GothicDan01-08-07, 02:26 PM | Bull. I'm talking empires here. Something that would span from Tethyr to Unther and leave an impact long after it's gone. I have taken a look at A Grand History of the Realms and looks like there were quite a lot of those 20+ thousand years ago. Not so much in the last 3,000 years though. First of all, those WERE Empires. Second of all, any Empire that large would be utterly unrealistic in modern Faerun due to the fact that power levels are so widely dispersed. The wood of Cormanthor was once MUCH larger; Cormanthyr was (I believe) made up of 5 individual, powerful Elven Kingdoms. How many Empires are there in the modern world? None of the kind you speak of, due to sheer technological advancement. Replace technology with magic for Faerun, and there you have it. There are spells capable of blowing up entire nations, more powerful than nukes. |
| Derren S.01-08-07, 02:34 PM | How many Empires are there in the modern world? None of the kind you speak of, due to sheer technological advancement. Replace technology with magic for Faerun, and there you have it. There are spells capable of blowing up entire nations, more powerful than nukes. Large countries which technological, economical and military superiority allows it to dominate most other countries? USA, soon China, maybe the EU on a small scale and russia is also gaining back a bit of its former glory. Now what do you have in the FR? Evermeet might be capable to but is too isolated to have much power. Waterdeep which is still only a small city and Thay which is plagued by constant infighting. |
| GothicDan01-08-07, 02:36 PM | Cormyr, before WotC and later TSR smashed it. Halruaa. Silverymoon and the Silver Marches. Calimshan. Mulhorand. Shade. The Zhentilar organization as a whole (including Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster). All of the above have great magical power and have been fairly well-established for many years. |
| Derren S.01-08-07, 02:47 PM | Cormyr, before WotC and later TSR smashed it. Halruaa. Silverymoon and the Silver Marches. Calimshan. Mulhorand. Shade. The Zhentilar organization as a whole (including Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster). All of the above have great magical power and have been fairly well-established for many years. Yet I don't see any of this country dominating or at least heavily influencing other nations so that their culture spready over a large part of Faerun. They might be strong but in the end its everyone for himself with his own culture. |
| GothicDan01-08-07, 02:57 PM | Mulhorand is trying to seize Unther, Thay has been somewhat successful in gaining land and continues to try to do so, the Zhentarim has recently acquired Mulmaster and has been expanding in the Moonsea, Shade attempted to re-establish the entire Netherese Empire and wiped out thousands of lives in trying to do so, Halruaa basically has all of the resources it needs in its current boundaries, the Silver Marches is only very recently in formation (and the Kingdom of Dark Arrows was created via militarism) and is led by a Chaotic Good leader (Alustriel)... |
| kelcimer01-08-07, 04:29 PM | First of all, those WERE Empires. But kingdom in size. Second of all, any Empire that large would be utterly unrealistic in modern Faerun due to the fact that power levels are so widely dispersed. Explain. The wood of Cormanthor was once MUCH larger; Cormanthyr was (I believe) made up of 5 individual, powerful Elven Kingdoms. Cormanthyr was, what? Double the size it is now? Big whoop. Still not covering a large area. How many Empires are there in the modern world? None of the kind you speak of, due to sheer technological advancement. Replace technology with magic for Faerun, and there you have it. Depends on whom you talk to. There's people that will argue very well that America is a new form of Empire. I'm not sure they're wrong. There are spells capable of blowing up entire nations, more powerful than nukes. If you had stopped at cities then I'd agree (and you'd be supporting various points of mine BTW), but I don't believe any of the nations of Faerun have anything to just way last to an entire nation in one go. Some one would have used it by now if they did. |
| GothicDan01-08-07, 04:32 PM | The Simbul was capable of casting a spell that would level Thay in one blow. Mystra forbade her from using it. Larloch is capable of destroying huge pieces of territory, if he so desired, and by extension. The Killing Storm of the Elves was still known at the time of Cormanthyr, and it desolated all of Miyeritar. Now, I'll just stop arguing, since it seems, again, like you have preformed opinions about certain things that are highly different from mine. I do not consider there to be any modern Empires, and I DO consider the nations I mentioned to be Empires. Due to how infinitely variable magic is (as opposed to technology), the long-term holding of any geographical area is incredibly difficult in Faerun, as far as I'm concerned. Even mid-level wizards, in number, are capable of easily routing and exterminating armies and any sort of organization. Not to mention fiendish hordes, Abyssal Lords, deities, and CR 20+ dragons. |
| Dark Wizard01-08-07, 11:04 PM | *sigh* I'm sorry you think a nation the size of Cormyr with resources to match can't do things very often because "it's a big bad Faerun and it's a crazy place". I'm sorry you think it can. The military dynamics of Faerun are closer to modern warfare due to magic. I don't need to go into how hard it is to keep a piece of territory in modern warfare against even a less well armed and less well organized but determined opponent. It makes sense to only take territory when the inhabitants actually want to side with you. If not, then again, I don't need to say how difficult it is to work with that territory. I speak from a general impression of Eberron that I've received in looking at the maps and getting a rundown of it's history by a DM. If I am horribly wrong in my impression of Ebberron then I'm sorry. Regardless, I still think my impression is really cool, and I'd like Faerun to be a bit more like that. What I referred to was when you said some Frontier/Border setup was good when speaking of Eberron, but you entirely dismissed an almost parallel example in FR. That's why I kept saying I wasn't referring to your general impression. It's really nice and special that it exists for the Designers. Good for them, but it isn't an integrated part of the Realms. It doesn't even get a line on a map. WotC took a lot out of the setting, which they seemed to do only because it might confuse the consumer base - minor nations, certain events, lesser deities, etc. I don't think anyone likes it. Still, nothing in 3e specifically says Erlkazar doesn't exist (was even the setting for some 3e era novels). Many smaller features from the 2e map didn't get transfered over to the 3e map. Many of them do return in the maps for the regional sourcebooks. So when/if we see a Lands of Intrigue sourcebook, we may get more on Erlkazar. WotC seems to put more back into the Realms with each book anyway. Seems about as integrated as any part of the setting. It's kind of like the smaller European countries, zoom out and you don't noticed them, but look at a regional map and they're there, as clear and present as any other place. Calimshan does not have firm borders with any nation other then Tethyr, and even that includes a mountain region that neither have penetrated sufficent for there to be a firm border line somewhere in the mountains. If my memory serves, forest of Mir has elves in it, but I wouldn't call that a nation. I'm not seeing firm borders with other nations here to contain Calimshan. Calimshan claims those areas, the areas might not admit it, but Calimshan's influence reaches there. Calimshan has a tenuous hold on Suldulphor, technically that's the eastern border. The border then stretches up north as far as Mintar, but not including Mintar (and Kzelter) itself, which is a militaristic city-state of Banites. The Dalelands do not constitute a formal nation. They are not even a Confederacy. Individually they do have governments, but they don't quite hit nationhood status except for perhaps Archendale. They are beset on all sides by crazy wilderness. Yeah, they are still frontier territory. They sound like nations to the dictionary (from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nation): 1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages. The Dales are a rough confederacy, the FRCS says, "the Dales Council loosely unifies all dales." Whether the Dales have wilderness in or around them is irrelevant. You're using frontier to mean undeveloped, then in that case, much of the modern world is "frontier," since many countries are undeveloped. However, that's clearly not the case. I apologize if my my defintion of frontier seems to change. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/frontier Looking at this page it seems that I've confused actual wilderness and frontier. The one seems closest to what I was thinking. "1. a wilderness at the edge of a settled area of a country" The phrase that pops out at me from other definitions is "an undeveloped area". How about "an undeveloped area in or outside the bounds of any political body worth being called a nation." Better? Worth being called a nation? To who's worth, yours? That's an entirely subjective statement. It's pure opinion (and a heavily biased one in this case, sorry) and shouldn't be taken for anything more concrete beyond that. Either a place is a nation by a certain definition (hopefully a decent definition) or it isn't. By your definition, "an undeveloped area in or outside the bounds of any political body worth being called a nation." Even if you decide what is worth being called a nation, the underdeveloped areas in or outside of that nation is still a frontier. By that definition, all of the Eberron (and FR, Dragonlance, any other setting, and the real world) nations have wilderness/undeveloped areas inside and outside their borders, thus they're all frontier nations. Faerun is slightly bigger then Europe. We are not talking about the distance over an entire world. How can you really have very many "centers of civilization" in such a small area without a Roman Empire, Persian Empire, or China happening? The great empires have happened, for FR they're Calimshan, Jhaamdath, Netheril, Cormanthor, and Mulhorand. They may happen again some day. Doing a rough measurement, Faerun is about 3000 miles by 2500 miles, conservatively speaking (I'm not counting places like Evermeet, Nimbral or Lantan, or places like Sossal or Prince Lamruil's elven realm in the far north). We'll say that aside from the empty area of the Shining Sea (balanced by the land areas I didn't count) Faerun is roughly rectangular. That comes out to about 7.5 million square miles (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). Europe is a little more than 4 million sq. miles. Faerun is almost double that, somewhere between the size of North and South America ( about 9.45 million and 6.9 million square miles respectively). This is consistent with what I've seen others say on these and other boards. Given that many of the famous civilization/empires of Earth (Egypt, Sumer/Babylon/Persia, Greece, Rome) occupied a relatively small piece of the world. You can have many centers of civilization given an even larger area. Of course not. Those nations have firm borders and the Kashmir problem is a tragic border dispute. There is no doubt that there is a border there between those nations. What is iin doubt is where the border lies. I won't go too much into this given it's an ongoing real world with some strong opinions attached to it. I just want to point out how similar situations exist in Faerun. What you're pointing out as unclaimed frontier is closer to a disputed/muddled border. Given the less than modern techniques average Faerunians have to determine geography and borders, this is the usual case. Even with modern GPS and aerial/satellite imaging, determining exact surface areas and mapping borders to terrain is not perfect. What I ment by "one giant frontier region" was that anywhere you are, just throw a stone and you'd hit some frontier. I never disputed that there are civilized areas of Faerun. It was not a lack of civilized areas that I was pointing to, so much as a lack of any kind of core area for civilization to extend from. Regional blocks like Amn/Tethyr/Calimshan and Mulhorand/Unther/Chessenta/Thay are heavily developed. I'll ask again, how are they not enough, given that even in real world history (even today to an extent) chunks of civilization are bordered by less developed areas. Like I pointed out before, even for the Roman or Chinese empires, any area outside their borders was considered a frontier, no matter the numbers and sophistication of the people living there. |
| Dark Wizard01-09-07, 12:13 AM | Bull. I'm talking empires here. Something that would span from Tethyr to Unther and leave an impact long after it's gone. I have taken a look at A Grand History of the Realms and looks like there were quite a lot of those 20+ thousand years ago. Not so much in the last 3,000 years though. Netheril only fell 1713 or so years ago in Realms time. Jhaamdath shortly after and Calimshan recognized Tethyr's independence shortly after that. Cormanthor fell just about 660 years ago. All relatively recent compared to the 30,000+ year timeline. Note that many of the modern Realms were founded within the last few centuries, certainly many coming into prominence just recently. So what some people say might be accurate, Faerun went through a sort of dark age and is now just coming into a renaissance with the resurrection of many ancient realms. Imo not appearing on the current world map (which was not simply copy&pasted) is very contradicting. Naw, that's just neglectful. Contradictory is something like the cosmology change, dwarven mages, elven paladins, or drow always having non-decaying gear on the surface. Yet I don't see any of this country dominating or at least heavily influencing other nations so that their culture spready over a large part of Faerun. They might be strong but in the end its everyone for himself with his own culture. You have to look at the FR version of ethnic groups, each one of those formed from a empire of the past. Illuskans come from Illusk. Chondathans came from the Jhaamdathan empire and later the Chondathan. The Mulan ethnic group and culture dominates the Old Empire region and beyond (into Murghom, Semphar, and Thay). Calishite (genie influenced) culture extends through much of the south. The Netherese dispersed themselves amongst the north and the Western Heartland as well as in current Halruaa and Nimbral. The Netherese also heavily influenced and inspired the Illuskans as the elves inspired the early Netherese. If you had stopped at cities then I'd agree (and you'd be supporting various points of mine BTW), but I don't believe any of the nations of Faerun have anything to just way last to an entire nation in one go. Some one would have used it by now if they did. People still do. Off the top of my head, the most recent nation destruction magic used was the tsunami that wiped out Jhaamdath. Post-Fall of Netheril, that's rather recent, showing that such magics are still possible even given the revised rules Mystra implemented. The elves who cast that high magic spell weren't from a particularly powerful nation like those of the Crown War era. Nation destroying magic seems quite available if it's available to wood elves, especially if you replicate a natural disaster, no flashy magic needed. However, just as the first atomic bombs used on Japan at the end of WW2, few are insane enough to use them unless they are at the end-of-the-line desperate. The destruction of Jhaamdath caused so much havoc and chaos that Tyr had to step him himself with a celestial host to put down the anarchy. For the elves of Nikeydamarath, it was a desperate move. They had no idea if Jhaamdath had some equally destructive psionic magic that could burn the entire Chondalwood, but they had nothing to lose. Now tell me, since WW2, who has used nuclear weapons to destroy an enemy? |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 12:28 AM | Dark Wizard, you're not bad for an N'Tel'Quess. ;) |
| MarkusTay6301-09-07, 12:39 AM | Just to mix it up a bit - I don't agree with any single person, you all have valid points. In most of the campaign worlds I have played in (and I've played in too many to count) there was some sort of very powerful centralized political body that considered itself the ruler of the world. However, once you got past the area on the map where the last fort of the Empire stands it's really all frontier (Here there be monsters). Even though there are usually entire nations in those areas that are 'off the map', they are still considered frontier by the great centralized political body. Think of real world Rome, or even Alexander's empire. To them, everyone else was a barbarian. So I do COMPLETELY understand the points some of you are making about a lack of a great big scarey empire-thingy, but for fans of that all I can say is "Faerun don't play that". On the counter-argument, Mulhoarand has been around for thousands of years, as has Calimshan. Calimshan for the most part is limited by it's geography, but has done quite well in the past and controlled far more territory. Mulhoarand, on the other hand, has had it's ups and downs and is on its way back up even now. It used to own Thay and most of the coast of Aglarond, and still owns Murghom and Semphar. It's southern border had almost reached the golden water at one point, but fighting with Unther stopped further expansion. They have just recently taken most of Unther, and have ther eye on Thay again (the canon even states that the Red Wizards are nervous). It's only a matter of time before they launch another assault on the Alaor. If you are looking for a big centralized Empire Mulhorand fits the bill, if it decides to go South instead of north (the smart thing to do) they will border on Faerun, Kara-Tur (they already do), AND Zahkara! You can't ask for much more then that. Also, at least one of you has mentioned China in the lack of empires... HELLO! Kara-Tur? How much more obvious can you get? The Shou Empire is as big as the heartlands and surrounded by FRONTIER. You really don't have to look much further. Also, you really can't say Erlkhazar is no longer in the FR because it's not on the newest map, thats just silly. There are tons of things that haven't yet been covered by 3e, but unless THEY specifically tell us it went bye-bye its still there. The country of Hartsvale was also left off the world map, but as Old_sage has so nicely pointed out it is visible on the smaller Silver marches map. So what? It existed, then didn't exist for nearly 10 years, then suddenly re-appeared? That doesn't make any sense, obviously it was ALWAYS THERE even if the map never showed it. Now, to jump back to the other side... The Dalelands are frontier! How can you think they are not? If you live in a town in Cormyr and go to the well for some water you will most likey make it back without incident. In the Dales, if you walk into your back yard to cut some firewood your family may never see you again. That sounds like a frontier to me. Its like the Old West, there were plenty of towns but everything in between them was unsafe. You had indians, outlaws, robber barons, the occasional puma... just like life in the Dales. And just like the old west, half the time you're not even safe in town. Besides all of that, they have NO central governing body (the Dales council is a joke) and they don't even have borders with another Dale in many areas. The Zhents take what they want, Sembia annexes what it wants, the Elves (good and bad) push them around, and there is nothing they can do about it. Definately Frontier. As much I understand and agree that a centralized power would be interesting, that is not Forgotten Realms. Magic does indeed make the worlds political climate much closer to our modern world then that of a medieval area. The fact that a single man can take out a large portion of a city is the exact equivalent of someone in a Stealth Bomber. One man = mass destruction, something you just didn't see in the ancient days of Empire. For those of you who have played WH, you know what I'm talking about. That setting has one humungo Empire made up of several smaller 'countries', and also dozens of other countries/factions on their 'frontier'. It does make for a rich campaign world, but it is a DIFFERENT kind of world. An archer with a lucky shot can still take out the uber-mage, so the power levels are totally different. Thats just my :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: EDIT: Two people posted since I started typing (small wonder), why is it always Elves doing the GREATEST ecological damage? :confused: |
| Derren S.01-09-07, 12:44 AM | Naw, that's just neglectful. Contradictory is something like the cosmology change, dwarven mages, elven paladins, or drow always having non-decaying gear on the surface. So even though it does not appear on any map you still claim it exists? Do yu also believe that Babylon exists today and only does not appear on any map? Until a regional book appears which does say it is there the most recent ressource is the FRCS and PGTF and both say that it isn't there. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 11:34 AM | We can see Babylon. Last time I checked, we can't project ourselves onto Faerun. You make terrible analogies. And, by the way, you're contradicting both 2E lore and WotC's rulings. |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 12:46 PM | I'm sorry you think it can. My players don't think so. The military dynamics of Faerun are closer to modern warfare due to magic. I don't need to go into how hard it is to keep a piece of territory in modern warfare against even a less well armed and less well organized but determined opponent. It makes sense to only take territory when the inhabitants actually want to side with you. If not, then again, I don't need to say how difficult it is to work with that territory. • Organization. This is not something to be underestimated. Yeah, magic can change the board in wierd ways, but when you have organized magic users then that one lone wizard isn't as unbalancing as he'd like to be. • The only reason it is difficult to hold territory against a less well armed and less well organized force is when the superior force lacks the will to do what is neccessary. And remember, Faerun is not living in an information age. There is no international community. It's lots easier to control the flow of information. They sound like nations to the dictionary (from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nation): 1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages. The Dales are a rough confederacy, the FRCS says, "the Dales Council loosely unifies all dales." Whether the Dales have wilderness in or around them is irrelevant. You're using frontier to mean undeveloped, then in that case, much of the modern world is "frontier," since many countries are undeveloped. However, that's clearly not the case. Worth being called a nation? To who's worth, yours? That's an entirely subjective statement. It's pure opinion (and a heavily biased one in this case, sorry) and shouldn't be taken for anything more concrete beyond that. Either a place is a nation by a certain definition (hopefully a decent definition) or it isn't. By your definition, "an undeveloped area in or outside the bounds of any political body worth being called a nation." Even if you decide what is worth being called a nation, the underdeveloped areas in or outside of that nation is still a frontier. By that definition, all of the Eberron (and FR, Dragonlance, any other setting, and the real world) nations have wilderness/undeveloped areas inside and outside their borders, thus they're all frontier nations. • The dales may or may not be holding together. It is an entirely voluntary thing. Different dales have attacked and conquered each other. Each Dale is a separate political entities that are nominally aligned with each other except when they don't want to be. Sorry, not a nation. • I think you are confusing undeveloped in terms of "mature and developing countries" instead of the "not built up or settled" kinda way I'm using it. • Yeah, worth being called a nation. As in "worthy of being called a nation" or "fits the defintion of a nation". Not all political bodies could accurately be described as a nation. • In order to agrue Eberron point I'd have to become more familiar with the setting. I don't want to do this because I don't randomly read product for a setting I'm not DMing, and I find it more enjoyable to get pretty much all of the information about settings I'm being run in from the DM who's dictating the version of that world I'm dealing with. I've already quantified my original statement concerning Eberron, and point to how it's less a commentary on Eberron then it is on FR. Faerun is almost double that, somewhere between the size of North and South America ( about 9.45 million and 6.9 million square miles respectively). This is consistent with what I've seen others say on these and other boards. Fair enough. I hadn't heard any precise calcualtions about it's size. Good to know. You also support my point that it's not distances over an entire world we're talking about. Given that many of the famous civilization/empires of Earth (Egypt, Sumer/Babylon/Persia, Greece, Rome) occupied a relatively small piece of the world. You can have many centers of civilization given an even larger area. At different times and over overlaping areas. Thanks for proving my point. The great empires have happened, for FR they're Calimshan, Jhaamdath, Netheril, Cormanthor, and Mulhorand. They may happen again some day. And they are not empire in size. To be an empire you really need to go a conquering multiple peoples to gain a large territory. I think the best to claim that in Faerun is Calimshan, but it controlled the territory of Tethyr, Amn, and what else? Good effort on Calimshans part, but still falling short in my estimation. I won't go too much into this given it's an ongoing real world with some strong opinions attached to it. I just want to point out how similar situations exist in Faerun. What you're pointing out as unclaimed frontier is closer to a disputed/muddled border. There's a difference between an amorphous region between states and a firmly agreed upon area of dispute. Regional blocks like Amn/Tethyr/Calimshan and Mulhorand/Unther/Chessenta/Thay are heavily developed. I'll ask again, how are they not enough, how much of a center of civilization can they be if areas that have been part of them have reverted to frontier? |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 12:53 PM | People still do. Off the top of my head, the most recent nation destruction magic used was the tsunami that wiped out Jhaamdath. Post-Fall of Netheril, that's rather recent, showing that such magics are still possible even given the revised rules Mystra implemented. The elves who cast that high magic spell weren't from a particularly powerful nation like those of the Crown War era. Nation destroying magic seems quite available if it's available to wood elves, especially if you replicate a natural disaster, no flashy magic needed. However, just as the first atomic bombs used on Japan at the end of WW2, few are insane enough to use them unless they are at the end-of-the-line desperate. The destruction of Jhaamdath caused so much havoc and chaos that Tyr had to step him himself with a celestial host to put down the anarchy. For the elves of Nikeydamarath, it was a desperate move. They had no idea if Jhaamdath had some equally destructive psionic magic that could burn the entire Chondalwood, but they had nothing to lose. Now tell me, since WW2, who has used nuclear weapons to destroy an enemy? Not the same. You don't have nations that stockpile items that will self destruct and take out a city. Yeah, big bad magic is possible, but only a few of the visible players could be said to possess it. If they don't think you possess big bad magic then that's not going to factor into their foreign policy. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 12:57 PM | Really, this is coming down to far more than the setting - it's coming down to political and militaristic philosophy. Due to differing philosophies, some of us think that Faerun is just fine as is, and is logical. Kelcimer, you obviously feel differently. Judging from the base differences in philosophy (and in definition, in a lot of cases), is either side here really going to win the other over? I, for one, don't think so. The biggest point of contention is this: the use of magic in the world. Kelcimer, you seem to liken it primarily to technology. Dark Wizard and I consider it to be more of a wild card. A single 24th level Wizard with access to the Epic Spellcasting Feat can cause havoc for armies and other archmages of equal or greater power, given proper preparation, forethought, and resources. Magic is just too variable, as far as I'm concerned. As to Empires and Frontiers? Once, the Roman Empire basically held all of Europe in its thrall. When it fell, almost every acre of territory that it held became frontier again, and it remained such throughout the Dark Ages. Does that mean it wasn't an Empire? |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 01:06 PM | MarkusTay63 Good postings. So I do COMPLETELY understand the points some of you are making about a lack of a great big scarey empire-thingy, but for fans of that all I can say is "Faerun don't play that" Just to clarify. I'm not saying I expect that. I just pointed out how much frontier there is in Fearun. Didn't think it would be contradictory to some people's religious beliefs. Also, at least one of you has mentioned China in the lack of empires... HELLO! Kara-Tur? How much more obvious can you get? The Shou Empire is as big as the heartlands and surrounded by FRONTIER. You really don't have to look much further. But it's way over there, and not part of faerun. ;) |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 01:20 PM | As to the size of Cormanthyr.. "From the Stormhorns to the Dragon Reach." The Stormhorns are the western border of Cormyr. The Dragon Reach is the eastern sea along modern Cormanthyr. So, it was comprised of modern Cormyr, Sembia, the Dalelands, and modern Cormanthor forest, and it was made up of 5 major (and several minor, I believe) Elven Kingdoms. I think that qualifies as an Empire. |
| Derren S.01-09-07, 01:26 PM | And has one of those countries kept some of the elven culture of that empire? (Cormanthor probably, but Sembia and the others?) |
| MarkusTay6301-09-07, 01:33 PM | I was trying to stay neutral here, since both sides make valid points, but..... My players don't think so. I have found that players usually agree with their DMs, its a health issue. ;) • Organization. This is not something to be underestimated. Yeah, magic can change the board in wierd ways, but when you have organized magic users then that one lone wizard isn't as unbalancing as he'd like to be. Your not reading what other people are typing. Two groups of magi facing off against each other is the equivalent to the cold war! No ones going to start something when they know that they have as much to lose. Think of each mage as a Nuke; only a madman would use them. • The only reason it is difficult to hold territory against a less well armed and less well organized force is when the superior force lacks the will to do what is neccessary. And remember, Faerun is not living in an information age. There is no international community. It's lots easier to control the flow of information. Double wrong. The US had a hard time in Afghanistan and never did catch Bin-Laden, there are still areas of Iraq that resist our forces, and maybe you don't remember a little thing called VIETNAM? Smaller groups are much harder to remove from an area then an organized army. Groups of Orc raiders = terrorists cells, you don't know when or where they will strike or how extensive the damage will be; there is no way to prepare for that. About the information age thing - I'm pretty damn sure that almost every chapter of every 2e product began with a 'missive' from either a gov't rep (Vanderghast), a spy (harpers), or an influential person (Elminster). Usually these were information exchanges between such peoples, so those in power are kept very well informed. Magic beats the telco everytime; no dropped calls! • The dales may or may not be holding together. It is an entirely voluntary thing. Different dales have attacked and conquered each other. Each Dale is a separate political entities that are nominally aligned with each other except when they don't want to be. Sorry, not a nation. Agree 100% • I think you are confusing undeveloped in terms of "mature and developing countries" instead of the "not built up or settled" kinda way I'm using it. Now we are getting at the crux of the matter, you see apples, he sees oranges. • Yeah, worth being called a nation. As in "worthy of being called a nation" or "fits the defintion of a nation". Not all political bodies could accurately be described as a nation. Absolutely agree again. I don't feel something like Waterdeep is a nation in any way, shape, or form. • In order to agrue Eberron point I'd have to become more familiar with the setting. I don't want to do this because I don't randomly read product for a setting I'm not DMing, and I find it more enjoyable to get pretty much all of the information about settings I'm being run in from the DM who's dictating the version of that world I'm dealing with. I've already quantified my original statement concerning Eberron, and point to how it's less a commentary on Eberron then it is on FR. Eberron is an interesting setting, but not my cup of tea. As the product line matures I will be keeping my eye on it. In the meantime, you have admitted that your take on Eberron was filtered through your DM, someone else reading the same material sees a completely different picture. I have several Eberron products and although there was a great big empire thingy it went away, so there are LOTS of frontier/contested borders floating around. Fair enough. I hadn't heard any precise calcualtions about it's size. Good to know. You also support my point that it's not distances over an entire world we're talking about. At different times and over overlaping areas. Thanks for proving my point. And they are not empire in size. To be an empire you really need to go a conquering multiple peoples to gain a large territory. I think the best to claim that in Faerun is Calimshan, but it controlled the territory of Tethyr, Amn, and what else? Good effort on Calimshans part, but still falling short in my estimation. There's a difference between an amorphous region between states and a firmly agreed upon area of dispute. how much of a center of civilization can they be if areas that have been part of them have reverted to frontier?Calimshan is the equivalent of the Ottoman empire, in both size and flavor. They did not conquer Amn and Tethyr, Tethyr BROKE OFF from the original empire. I believe Amn was a seperate entity ruled by a different genie, not sure, haven't read that material in a while. If you had read my post, you would realize that MULHORAND is exactly what you have been looking for. It is still a major player, and at one point it stretched to reach three seperate campaign settings! It you look at a map and include Thay and parts of Aglarond in there Mulhoarand was MASSIVE! Unfortunately it was a much more vast Empire on the old maps, the new map has shrunken it quite a bit. With their acquisition of Unther they are growing again, and I expect them to expand into the Shaar and maybe even take Veldorn so that they will have a port on the Golden water. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 01:34 PM | ... Cormyr and Sembia are now human nations. They were Elven nations back then. |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 01:35 PM | Judging from the base differences in philosophy (and in definition, in a lot of cases), is either side here really going to win the other over? I, for one, don't think so. Yeah. I been staying away from certain real world arguments. On political boards I've discussed very many real world contentious topics. I didn't come here to this board to discuss those topics and I don't think I'm assuming very much to say you didn't either. The biggest point of contention is this: the use of magic in the world. Kelcimer, you seem to liken it primarily to technology. Dark Wizard and I consider it to be more of a wild card. A single 24th level Wizard with access to the Epic Spellcasting Feat can cause havoc for armies and other archmages of equal or greater power, given proper preparation, forethought, and resources. But how many 24th level wizards are there? Not many. And how many of those would be willing to participate in large scale conflicts? Not many. And how many of those who are willing would have second thoughts? Could they avoid being killed themselves? There only one assassins blade needs to hit it's mark as it were. He's not just a 24th level wizard. He's also a person who has reason to do it, and is even still futher willing. I grant that such power exists, but I consider harder to bring to bare. I understand intellectually that an asteroid can hit any day, but I don't think it'll happen. Another point that we seem to disagree on is how much organization and resources available count as force multipliers. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 01:36 PM | There are over a hundred Epic Wizards in Faerun, as of 2E. That's not even including 3E. EDIT: It seems like Kuje has finished the 3E NPCs as well. The Excel sheets are here: http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/ So, you can see, the risk of high level Wizards in Faerun spoiling plans is ridiculously high, and it's a wonder civilization has lasted as long as it has. The number of Epic Wizards, 3E included, is probably around 200. There are more Epic Archmages than all other classes combined. |
| MarkusTay6301-09-07, 01:57 PM | I would say those figures are rather low. Evermeet probably has at least 100 by itself (High magic, same difference). I would think that there are more Expert (farming) classes then high mages, but not by much. :P |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 03:00 PM | I have found that players usually agree with their DMs, its a health issue. A health issue? Not at my table. :) Your not reading what other people are typing. Two groups of magi facing off against each other is the equivalent to the cold war! But we're not talking about opposing groups of mages. I've been talking about opposing military and political forces. Double wrong. The US had a hard time in Afghanistan and never did catch Bin-Laden, there are still areas of Iraq that resist our forces, and maybe you don't remember a little thing called VIETNAM? Um, no. Vietnam was essentially won, but a democratic congress cut the aid that South Vietnam was recieving and essentially told the rest of the world not to invest there. The rest was a forgone conclusion. Afghanistan suffers from the fact that politics keeps our forces out of Pakistan and Iran. Iraq suffers from a few blunders early on. We didn't have the forces there that we needed to establish order and allowed various resistances time to put root. We also disbanded their army. I still can't believe they made that particular colossal blunder. In both Iraq and Afghanistan you have insurgent/terrorist groups that are really very small as these things go, but are given disperportionate attention in the media then other news coming out of both countries. In all three cases the insurgents/terrorist groups are/were being supported by other means outside those nations. I've discussed these three nations and America's involvement in them at great length on other boards. I did not come to this board to discuss such topics. If you want to seriously discuss these topics I may be willing to do so, but not on this board. Such a discussion would be worth it's own thread and this board is about the Realms. Usually these were information exchanges between such peoples, so those in power are kept very well informed. Magic beats the telco everytime; no dropped calls! Unless I'm misunderstanding, you seem to agree with me. Those in power are in the know, but the masses aren't so fortunate. Calimshan is the equivalent of the Ottoman empire, in both size and flavor. They did not conquer Amn and Tethyr, Tethyr BROKE OFF from the original empire. I believe Amn was a seperate entity ruled by a different genie, not sure, haven't read that material in a while. If you had read my post, you would realize that MULHORAND is exactly what you have been looking for. Could we possibly agree that Calimshan and Mulhorand were bush league empires that never made it to the big leagues? Also, Mulhorand had that whole egypian thing going for it. Had it been large and spreading then the egypian pantheon region would be larger, neh? And that's looking at the 2ed Faiths and Avatars map. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 03:15 PM | No, because AO set the pantheon boundary regions himself. A deity cannot gain influence in the pantheonic boundary of another pantheon. The sole exception is Sharess/Bast, with AO's permission, and that's only because he also allowed Mask to start making incursions on the Mulhorandi pantheon's region. |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 03:28 PM | There are over a hundred Epic Wizards in Faerun, as of 2E. That's not even including 3E. So, you can see, the risk of high level Wizards in Faerun spoiling plans is ridiculously high, and it's a wonder civilization has lasted as long as it has. The number of Epic Wizards, 3E included, is probably around 200. There are more Epic Archmages than all other classes combined. Dear gods, who has the time to compile such lists? Hmmm. The Excel file for 1st and 2nd does open for me. The Html page that is supposed to contain the same information seems rather incomplete. The 3rd and 3.5 opens for me. Nice list. There's about 50 mages on it 20th level or above. Interesting. I'm not sure if that changes anything for me or not. I will think on it. But I do have to wonder why it should be neccesary to review such obscure sources in order to form a decent opinion of the realms. Seems rather **** retentive. |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 03:30 PM | AO set the pantheon boundary regions himself. Yeah. Reflecting the reality on the ground at the time. BAM! |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 03:33 PM | ...? He set up ALL pantheonic restrictions, so that there wouldn't be multiple deities of the same thing in the same pantheon. Dear gods, who has the time to compile such lists? Kuje. He's awesome like that. But I do have to wonder why it should be neccesary to review such obscure sources in order to form a decent opinion of the realms. Seems rather **** retentive. I don't know, why is it necessary to review ancient civilizations in order to get a decent opinion of Earth? Because there's a lot of DEPTH do it. And, really, it's not that hard. It doesn't take much time or reading - you just have to know what to read. And personally, I LOVE being an@l! |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 03:51 PM | I don't know, why is it necessary to review ancient civilizations in order to get a decent opinion of Earth? Because there's a lot of DEPTH do it. If you did not already have uber realms geek cred, you would have earned it right there. You do realize it's just a game, right? |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 03:54 PM | Sure do. And physics is "just" the universe. Norse mythology is "just" myth. Whatever I do, I get very into it. It's a purely personal thing. And FR isn't even my favorite setting, so. Yeah. |
| boards01-09-07, 04:10 PM | The Simbul was capable of casting a spell that would level Thay in one blow. Mystra forbade her from using it. Where can I find information on this statement? The only think I have found was in El's Daughter where Mystra tells her to stop attacking Thay, and the Simbul saying that her own bloodlust was beginning to scare her. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 04:15 PM | It was in a novel that focused specifically on the Simbul... The Simbul's Gift, mayhap. |
| boards01-09-07, 04:37 PM | Cheers GothicDan |
| Dark Wizard01-09-07, 07:29 PM | • Organization. This is not something to be underestimated. Yeah, magic can change the board in wierd ways, but when you have organized magic users then that one lone wizard isn't as unbalancing as he'd like to be. This is really a case by case basis. Nothing says that one wizard can't be more organized and efficient than a whole cabal of them. Then you toss in the weirdness of arcane magic, and even divine magic subject to the whim of the gods. You're also assuming the forces of these smaller entities are less organized and less well armed. • The only reason it is difficult to hold territory against a less well armed and less well organized force is when the superior force lacks the will to do what is neccessary. And remember, Faerun is not living in an information age. There is no international community. It's lots easier to control the flow of information. Are you assuming that the forces that work against nations in real life don't apply to the nations of Faerun? That Cormyr doesn't have politics, that it does possess the adamant will of a unified people to spend the lives and resources necessary to take over a few swamps. • The dales may or may not be holding together. It is an entirely voluntary thing. Different dales have attacked and conquered each other. Each Dale is a separate political entities that are nominally aligned with each other except when they don't want to be. Sorry, not a nation. They're a loosely aligned set of small and underdeveloped nations, each a nation in themselves. They're not an empire, never said anything like that. • I think you are confusing undeveloped in terms of "mature and developing countries" instead of the "not built up or settled" kinda way I'm using it. You meandered between the two at various times in your posts. • Yeah, worth being called a nation. As in "worthy of being called a nation" or "fits the defintion of a nation". Not all political bodies could accurately be described as a nation. The two parts of your statements in quotes don't match, the former is entirely subjective, the latter is objective (ideally). • In order to agrue Eberron point I'd have to become more familiar with the setting. I don't want to do this because I don't randomly read product for a setting I'm not DMing, and I find it more enjoyable to get pretty much all of the information about settings I'm being run in from the DM who's dictating the version of that world I'm dealing with. I've already quantified my original statement concerning Eberron, and point to how it's less a commentary on Eberron then it is on FR. Okay, no talk of Eberron. That still leaves FR, the other settings, and the real world, where your definition can apply to everything and nothing at the same time. Fair enough. I hadn't heard any precise calcualtions about it's size. Good to know. You also support my point that it's not distances over an entire world we're talking about. I said Faerun's area is quite a bit larger than Europe, easily encompassing much of the Middle East and Northern Africa, including the home territories of the half dozen major civilizations and empires that form the basis of Western civilization. Thus showing that Faerun should and does have a number of civilization centers, just like the trends in the real world. At different times and over overlaping areas. Thanks for proving my point. That was actually my point a while back on a related issue to this discussion, which you ignored. I'm not sure you know what you're supporting anymore. I'll try to explain what I've attempted to discuss all this time. History isn't a snapshot of any age, certainly not any romanticized period dominated by one or two empires. Even a cursory glance at history will show you that there are times when the landscape splintered into little states, or covered by a handful empire or usually something in the middle of the two. The history of the Forgotten Realms also shows similar ups and downs. There were times when empires bumped right up against one another and times like the current era with a few developed areas and smaller states and nations between the larger ones. History changes through time and so do the Realms. When you said that the Realms were static for millennia, that the Realms never had large empires, and most of the other statements you tossed out, you showed how you either didn't read up on the Realms, or glossed over certain points or simply ignored entire trends (maybe because these developments were lumped with areas and cultures you found no interest in, understandable). The things is, you don't need to look beyond the FRCS to get a decent idea of this, and skimming through a book like Lost Empires of Faerun highlights in detail exactly the points that counter all of your arguments. You don't need a library of Realms books across three editions to see this. All the things you said you liked are present in the Realms. All the things you said you don't like, are present in real world history, despite your preference of the other side of the historical spectrum. And they are not empire in size. To be an empire you really need to go a conquering multiple peoples to gain a large territory. I think the best to claim that in Faerun is Calimshan, but it controlled the territory of Tethyr, Amn, and what else? Good effort on Calimshans part, but still falling short in my estimation. Bump borders with Jhaamdath, scrapped against the elven powers of the north, dominated all of the Border Kingdoms and the Lake of Steam. There's a difference between an amorphous region between states and a firmly agreed upon area of dispute. As I understand the situation, it's the former (though perhaps a mix of the two) because if it was solely the latter, at least two of the countries would be involved in a very active and hot war, but we're getting too close to a potentially touchy real world topic. My point is, things present in the Realms exist in the real world and vice versa. However, the situations are not perfect parallels, which they shouldn't be otherwise why not just play in a mythic Earth. What the Realms do try to incorporate are real world influences, mostly in the form of historical trends to match what you would expect a living world to undergo. how much of a center of civilization can they be if areas that have been part of them have reverted to frontier? Easy, the parts that revert are the less civilized/settled parts of the otherwise civilized imperial entity. When the Roman Empire fell, aside from a few places like Rome and Byzantium/Constantinople, most of Europe plunged into a dark age. Many provinces reverted to backwater "frontier," splintered into various petty kingdoms or worse yet just territory claimed by castellans and armed thugs who eventually developed into the knights of Europe. When various Chinese dynasties fell, most of Western China reverted to backwater frontier with the major settlements centered along the various trade routes and not much of anything between them. Not the same. You don't have nations that stockpile items that will self destruct and take out a city. Yeah, big bad magic is possible, but only a few of the visible players could be said to possess it. If they don't think you possess big bad magic then that's not going to factor into their foreign policy. In a way the various nations of Faerun do stockpile magic in the form of magic items and artifacts if available, but certainly in the living talent residing in each country. I don't think we need to go through the list again, but as Dan pointed out in another thread, spellcasters either directly rule or otherwise heavily influence the overwhelming majority of countries in Faerun. These spellcasters are typically high or even epic level. Thus where the hundred epic wizards come in. Yes, some of them do take up residence in small towns and the places you deem less than nations. Could we possibly agree that Calimshan and Mulhorand were bush league empires that never made it to the big leagues? Only if we call Rome, China and the Persian empires "bush league" empires as well, if by bush league you mean actual empires. ;) At their heights, both Calimshan and Mulhorand encompassed areas similar to what you expect the real world equivalents to claim. But I do have to wonder why it should be neccesary to review such obscure sources in order to form a decent opinion of the realms. Seems rather **** retentive. You really don't needed Kuje's NPC files to show you that the Realms has an (over)abundance of high level wizards? Half the Realms fans and half the people who aren't fond of the setting will tell you the same. :D |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 08:10 PM | Sure do. And physics is "just" the universe. Norse mythology is "just" myth. Whatever I do, I get very into it. It's a purely personal thing. And FR isn't even my favorite setting, so. Yeah. Fair enough.:cool: |
| kelcimer01-09-07, 09:09 PM | They're a loosely aligned set of small and underdeveloped nations, each a nation in themselves. They're not an empire, never said anything like that. I believe I was responding to a statement that the Dales where something of a proper nation and should not be considered frontier. You meandered between the two at various times in your posts. My apologies for any confusion, I do try to be clear in my posts. I confess some surprise with the debate over what is and isn't a frontier. I did not think the idea of a core area from which civilization spreads and that what lies at the edge of and beyond as being frontier would be controversal. I said Faerun's area is quite a bit larger than Europe, easily encompassing much of the Middle East and Northern Africa, including the home territories of the half dozen major civilizations and empires that form the basis of Western civilization. Thus showing that Faerun should and does have a number of civilization centers... But they have frontiers right next to them. Thus no "core". I said: At different times and over overlaping areas. Thanks for proving my point. You said: That was actually my point a while back on a related issue to this discussion, which you ignored. I'm not sure you know what you're supporting anymore. I'll try to explain what I've attempted to discuss all this time. History isn't a snapshot of any age, certainly not any romanticized period dominated by one or two empires. Even a cursory glance at history will show you that there are times when the landscape splintered into little states, or covered by a handful empire or usually something in the middle of the two. The history of the Forgotten Realms also shows similar ups and downs. There were times when empires bumped right up against one another and times like the current era with a few developed areas and smaller states and nations between the larger ones. History changes through time and so do the Realms. When you said that the Realms were static for millennia, that the Realms never had large empires, and most of the other statements you tossed out, you showed how you either didn't read up on the Realms, or glossed over certain points or simply ignored entire trends (maybe because these developments were lumped with areas and cultures you found no interest in, understandable). The things is, you don't need to look beyond the FRCS to get a decent idea of this, and skimming through a book like Lost Empires of Faerun highlights in detail exactly the points that counter all of your arguments. You don't need a library of Realms books across three editions to see this. I'm talking about centers of civilization, "core" territory that has no border on a frontier. Not about History itself. I actually have LEoF. Meh. None of the empires detailed there really catch me as being a true empire. I'm not sure you know what you're supporting anymore. My opening statement was "The main problem I have with the Realms is that every land is a frontier realm. Why is it that any nation or empire can only ever get so big?" Which I still stand by. You have nations, yes, but there's always a frontier. Somewhere along the way I got caught up in the idea that there wasn't a real empire worthy of the name that has affected a really large swath of the Current Realms. As I understand the situation, it's the former (though perhaps a mix of the two) because if it was solely the latter, at least two of the countries would be involved in a very active and hot war, but we're getting too close to a potentially touchy real world topic. After a certain point there is area that is undisputedly indian, chinese, or pakistani. Those are firm borders with the Kashmir region. It's a contained disputed area. Easy, the parts that revert are the less civilized/settled parts of the otherwise civilized imperial entity. When the Roman Empire fell, aside from a few places like Rome and Byzantium/Constantinople, most of Europe plunged into a dark age. Many provinces reverted to backwater "frontier," splintered into various petty kingdoms or worse yet just territory claimed by castellans and armed thugs who eventually developed into the knights of Europe. When various Chinese dynasties fell, most of Western China reverted to backwater frontier with the major settlements centered along the various trade routes and not much of anything between them. Fair enough. Good point. I did loose track of my original position. My apologies. While those areas have seen civilization a bunch, I wouldn't call either "core" civilization. They still have frontier sitting next to 'em. I said: Could we possibly agree that Calimshan and Mulhorand were bush league empires that never made it to the big leagues? you said: Only if we call Rome, China and the Persian empires "bush league" empires as well, if by bush league you mean actual empires. Each of those affected their entire region and thus left an impact upon it. Faerun is often described as not having much contact with the other portions of the world and it's own traders go all over within the area know as Faerun. No one "empire" effected such influence on even a third of that space. You really don't needed Kuje's NPC files to show you that the Realms has an (over)abundance of high level wizards? Half the Realms fans and half the people who aren't fond of the setting will tell you the same. After thinking about it some, I don't think the numbers phase me too much. Meh. Never struck me as a problem. It's all in what you choose to put emphasis on I guess. |
| Dark Wizard01-09-07, 10:13 PM | But they have frontiers right next to them. Thus no "core". I'm talking about centers of civilization, "core" territory that has no border on a frontier. Not about History itself. I actually have LEoF. Meh. None of the empires detailed there really catch me as being a true empire. My opening statement was "The main problem I have with the Realms is that every land is a frontier realm. Why is it that any nation or empire can only ever get so big?" Which I still stand by. You have nations, yes, but there's always a frontier. Somewhere along the way I got caught up in the idea that there wasn't a real empire worthy of the name that has affected a really large swath of the Current Realms. While those areas have seen civilization a bunch, I wouldn't call either "core" civilization. They still have frontier sitting next to 'em. Each of those affected their entire region and thus left an impact upon it. Faerun is often described as not having much contact with the other portions of the world and it's own traders go all over within the area know as Faerun. No one "empire" effected such influence on even a third of that space. Through out my posts I pointed out a lot of similarities between how the Realms' fictional history was constructed to how Earth's history actually progressed, including several instances involving the types of empires you feel Faerun lacks. I've highlighted the trends you see in real history with similar ones you see in Realms history. I've tried to give evidence supporting the idea that there really isn't a single core of civilization in the real world, especially not one devoid of borders with frontier regions, whether to mean wilderness or just undeveloped. I've also pointed out how the Netherese, the Chondathans, the Illuskan and the like left major cultural influences on the peoples of Faerun, similar to how the Romans and the Han Chinese left their mark on a variety of peoples across swaths of their respective continents. The chunks of the continent some of the Faerunian empires controlled and influenced is comparable to the pieces of territory these Earth empires controlled, keeping in mind that the Faerun map represents a landmass closer to North American than it is to Europe (with the Urals as the border, so quite a large area indeed since Faerun is almost twice as large). After thinking about it some, I don't think the numbers phase me too much. Meh. Never struck me as a problem. It's all in what you choose to put emphasis on I guess. Neither do I think it's a problem. However, some people, especially detractors, put too much emphasis on them. They're just another aspect of the setting, like the dozens of other setting peculiarities. After a certain point there is area that is undisputedly indian, chinese, or pakistani. Those are firm borders with the Kashmir region. It's a contained disputed area. I'm not sure how this shows the real world situation is different from some Realms situations. |
| GothicDan01-09-07, 11:04 PM | So, this argument has basically boiled down to: "The Realms isn't X." "The Realms is too X, because of Z." "The Realms isn't X, because Y isn't Z." "But Y is TOO Z." And so on. Fun! |
| kelcimer01-10-07, 01:58 AM | You've put forth good arguments. This does feel a little bit like talking past each other, but basically a good game, as it were. I've tried to give evidence supporting the idea that there really isn't a single core of civilization in the real world, especially not one devoid of borders with frontier regions, whether to mean wilderness or just undeveloped. You can track the spread of civilization. Began in the middle east. There was flow both east and west. Between Alexander the great and the Roman Emipre the center of gravity moved East. Rome collapsed and Europe eventually pulled itself up by the boot straps and proceed to spread it's influence around the world. Others had cropped up on different continents, but they were all broken on contact except for parts of the orient. You look at maps over history and there is a core that begins in the middle east and shifts to europe. And then one day we found ourselves in a global civilization. We reached a point where every nation in the world is being part of the same history. We don't have any frontiers here on earth left to explore. That's the broad strokes as I see it. Meh. |
| MarkusTay6301-10-07, 03:11 AM | I haven't taken sides because you are both right on too many points, its just a matter of agreeing on things that are purely opinion, like what constitutes an Empire? Although I COMPLETELY agree with your veiw of the Realms having a lot of 'empty areas', I have to STRONGLY disagree about Mulhoarand. The area they currently control (and the area they used to control) are poorly represented by the pantheon map. When I look at the old pre-3e map Mulhoarand was FREAKIN HUGE! It stretches from Thay to the Shaar (into the Shining South) and from Unther to almost the dragonwall of the Shou Empire! There is only a tiny little band of horde territory (technically a 5th Campaign setting) between these two GIANT Empires. They have taken Unther, and if they continue South they will most likely take the Shaar and the ENTIRE Golden waters region. Then if they head North they 'might' be able to take Thay again, 'IF' they can get help from other parties who would like to see Thay fall (Aglarond, Rashemen - although in both those cases I think they would be just as worried about Mulhoarands ambitions). I don't think you are correctly judging the size of the maps Kel, The area is quite a bit larger then N. America. That would put Mulhoarand easily at the size of the Egyptian Empire at its height, and much larger then the Greek (pre-Alexander, of course). In fact, if you take it into account that Rome probably only controlled about a quarter of what they claimed Mulhoarand would be the size of that one too. The maps depicting the Roman Empire are a sort of 'propaganda piece'. Although they did control ALL of that territory at one time or another, they were always losing huge chunks of it back to the barbarians. They would re-take gaul, and lose their Eastern border. they would push east to Constantinople, and they would lose all of Northern europe. They would march north to push back the germanic tribes, and lose Iberia (Spain). It was a never ending battle, and Rome is pretty much the Empire that all other are measured up against. BTW - You are quite correct that this a game forum, and I am VERY sorry for having brought real-world politics to the table for comparison. Live long and prosper :coolcthul |
| kelcimer01-10-07, 03:51 AM | I don't think you are correctly judging the size of the maps Kel, The area is quite a bit larger then N. America. That would put Mulhoarand easily at the size of the Egyptian Empire at its height, and much larger then the Greek (pre-Alexander, of course). In fact, if you take it into account that Rome probably only controlled about a quarter of what they claimed Mulhoarand would be the size of that one too. I'll take antoher look at the 2e maps when I get home. The maps depicting the Roman Empire are a sort of 'propaganda piece'. Although they did control ALL of that territory at one time or another, they were always losing huge chunks of it back to the barbarians. Aye. I'm not familiar with the exact give and take, but I have a general idea of it. While this was happening they still had their core territory. BTW - You are quite correct that this a game forum, and I am VERY sorry for having brought real-world politics to the table for comparison. No worries. When discussing politics, military stuff, and such in a fantasy world it is natural to look to the real world for parallels. We just have to skirt certain hotbutton topics when doing so. :D |
| Bluenose01-10-07, 09:49 AM | Well, there are a lot of lands in Faerun that aren't claimed by an organised state at the moment. That doesn't mean that there weren't empires in the past and that there won't be any in the future. Since we've included real world analogies, forgive me for one more. In 100AD you could have travelled from the Atlantic to Pacific oceans while only passing through the territory of four states - the Roman empire, Parthia, the Kushan kingdom, and Han China. By 1000AD all those states were gone and such a journey would have involved some travel through territory where the law consisted of whatever the local warlord with most followers said it was. On the subject of Mulhorand's control of the Shaar, I personally suspect that this isn't much more than propaganda. If Shaarans who want to trade with Mulhorand for unusual goods are told that they have to pledge allegiace to Pharaoh first, then you might find a lot doing so. Some may even be willing to cooperate with Mulhorandi forces if there's a chance to attack their rivals. There's probably trading posts, with small military garrisons, but from a practical point of view anything more significant is unlikely to repay the cost of doing it. |
| MarkusTay6301-10-07, 11:42 AM | Once again, I am forced to make real-world comparisons, The Ancient Egyptains had their 'core' territory for over a thousand years. Then they decided to conquer Ethiopia, which they were able to do fairly easily becasue it was similar to the Shaar - lots of independent tribes running around with no central government. Eventually, the Ethiopians got fed up with being ruled by the Egyptains, and the Egyptians lost interest with them (different Emperor, different priorities), so they rebelled and easily won back their freedom. Now organized, they formed into a nation-state. Eventually, this new nation turned around and CONQUERED Egypt right back! Most Egyptaian Emperors didn't care for military matters, they spent ALL their times building massive tombs for themselves so that they let the army go to cr@p. Within one or two generations the Egyptians broke free from the Ethiopians and everything went back to the way it was for another thousand years or so. Mulhoarand is VERY much like Egypt in that they become introverted for millenia at a time. Occasionally, they get an Emperor that feels like taking over the world, and then its 'look out!" I believe Mulhoarand is going through one of those periods now. Anything it gains will not, unfortunately, last long. The next Pharoah will go back to building tombs again. @kelcimer - you have to remember that a big chunk of Mulhoarand goes off the East side of the maps. Murgohm and Semphar are both officially part of Mulhoarand, as Thay once was. As a side note, I make Northern Muhoarand much more like Byyzantium (Constantinople), because I like the idea of an huge ancient city (Skuld) filled with forgotten archaic knowledge. I have read a couple interesting books about Constantinople, one of which was a fantasy/what if? type of thing. They had a rich culture, and the Gov't was very organized, having spys in many other lands. They also wielded vast economic power over most of the region, and I prefer to view MY Mulhorand that way, with them controlling much of the Sea of Fallen Stars. In the south, however, many of the people stick to the 'old' ways, and there is a growing army of undead in the region of the ancient Pharoah's pyramids (Idea stolen from the Tomb Kings in WH). I'm intending to eventually have a Monotheistic religion rise out of the area, with an inquisition and everything, if the campaign ever goes that far. |
| GothicDan01-10-07, 01:26 PM | Aye. I'm not familiar with the exact give and take, but I have a general idea of it. While this was happening they still had their core territory. Which wasn't all THAT big. They ruled primarily through sea, and were conquered many times on land. They were also renowned for their Empire, in the fact that they built it by settling their own people on foreign land, and giving foreigners a sort of Roman citizenship, with rights included. That's something we haven't really seen much before or since, so it's not exactly surprising that such an Empire wouldn't come into being in Faerun. And that being said, the Roman Empire couldn't even conquer Germania. A bunch of low-technology, disorganized savages, where they had done so MANy times in the past before. The same goes for the British Celts. The Romans were more technologically advanced, more organized, and more experienced... But they couldn't push past Hadrian's Wall and the Black Forest was the stuff of their nightmares. Rome collapsed and Europe eventually pulled itself up by the boot straps and proceed to spread it's influence around the world. And before that, Rome split into the Eastern and Western Empires, and THEN when they collapsed (the Western before the Eastern, I think), it was HUNDREDS of years before Europe really experienced any sort of civilized advancement again. And the only reason this even happened was in large part due to religious homogenity, which Faerun does not have. And even then, Charlemagne's empire only lasted until his death. That's the way that MANY of the "empires" of the past worked - they lasted for one, maybe two or three emperors, and then collapsed. Alexander's is a good example of one of these, too. As many have said, I consider Faerun to be undergoing a sort of Dark Ages similar to this, too. It's a time when YOUR PCs can make great things happen, to usher in a new age. Truly understanding the political clime of Faerun not only requires one to have a good understanding of real world history and politics, but also one has to be able to theorize how the DIFFERENCES in Faerun's environment (religion, especially, as well as magical power and lack of technology, all of which contribute to entirely different philosophical mindsets) would affect the progression of things. It's not easy. It's not supposed to be. I prefer this much more if I want a "realistic" campaign setting (as opposed to Dragonlance or the like). |
| DreamStalker01-10-07, 03:19 PM | I definitely agree that Faerun is coming out of a Dark Ages. Since the Time of Troubles Faerun has been heavily embroiled in the type of conflicts that can either further supress or embolden advancement in large areas. Which direction the various points of Faerun follow remains to be seen (hopefully by the PCs). |
| Derren S.01-10-07, 03:30 PM | As many have said, I consider Faerun to be undergoing a sort of Dark Ages similar to this, too. Actually that the Dark Ages was an area of poverty, violence and stagnation is only a myth. Even back then there was a steady advancment only largely undocumented because the church controlled nearly all written records. |
| GothicDan01-10-07, 03:31 PM | Yes, I've heard that, too. And I've heard people that rebuked that, too. A lack of documentation implies a lack of communication and recording of knowledge. Without documentation, civilization does NOT progress as quickly as it otherwise would when things WERE documented. So, compared to previous Classical cultures, it WAS a Dark Age. Just not as Dark as many believe. And before Charlemagne, the Church was in a state of shambles. Popes were being slaughtered left and right, and the separation of Eastern Orthodox and Western meant that much knowledge was lost and miscommunicated. I actually just watched a show on that on the History channel recently. So, when it comes down to it, the Dark Ages WERE Dark. Just not 'black.' |
| Wellin_Adipocere01-10-07, 04:00 PM | The fact that Drizzt will never be able to die like the hero he is due to the fanboys would probably never buy another R.A.Salvatore novel or realms novel for that matter. Look what happened to Superman. So I say lets just give the fanboy's what they want. Let Drizzt actually be considered a tool of Lolth. Let Drizzt realize this and have him go on his final quest to be free of Lolth's touch. As the Hunter he shreds all in his way and makes it to Lolth's domain and charges right up to her and kills her. (sounds plausible so far) After achieving his greatest quest for Mielikki all the fanboys around the world pray for him and to him. Their hearts and souls together help Drizzt ascend into what every fanboy wants...Godhood. This way he can be around forever. *note*I am a big fan of Drizzt and do not want to step on any toes. I have all his novels alone and in the collecter's editions. This was just a friendly rant...or was it?:D |
| MarkusTay6301-11-07, 10:46 AM | Drizzt, the Demi-god of fanboys? I like it! :D The first thing he should do is go around and get rid of all thosa Drizzt clones, they're even worse then all those ones Manshoon made! It's getting so you can't even walk into a tavern anymore without tripping over one! |
| DreamStalker01-11-07, 02:36 PM | Deity: Drizzt Alignment: CG Portfolios: Fanboys, Clone-slaying Worrship by: Fanboys, elven prudes, people with big sideburns Symbol: A stereotypical DnD fanboy wearing a hood and brandishing two false scimitars, oftentimes painted obsidian. Dogma: Drizzt is the Chuck Norris of Realmspace. Drizzt can slaughter anything with a spinning slash of his scimitars. Even uppity clones. Ever wondered why the other third has been missing? Exactly. Put off consumating your relationship with your lover for at least a decade. Even if they seem to want you despite the smell. At dawn stare at the sun until your vision improves. Clerics of Drizzt pray for their spells in hour before dawn. |
| MerrikCale01-11-07, 07:02 PM | and yet he's written so well |
| DreamStalker01-11-07, 07:17 PM | The quality of a work does not determine the quality of the fanboys and fangirls. I too like Drizzt. I also like drow. If I ever play a good aligned drow it will likely be an Elistraaen worshipping bard. |
| Karsus the Mad01-11-07, 07:17 PM | and yet he's written so well Ditto... |
| MarkusTay6301-11-07, 09:19 PM | Absolutely, I have every book written by said author. Unfortunately super-star status has escalated his primery character to nigh-unbelievable levels of devotion. Drizzt has become so incredibly powerful that I doubt the high God Salv of Tor can even kill him off anymore. ;) Damn shame, loved the little runt. Maybe like all celebrities he will go down the sad path of booze and drugs and eventually either die in a plane crash or a bus accident. Edit: Just to get this at least a little back on topic, his existance is definately NOT one of the things that bothers me about the Realms. That list is fortunately quite small and easily fixable. |
| Wellin_Adipocere01-12-07, 03:26 AM | I like Drizzt as much as the next person, hell I seem to like all of the author's characters, Wulfgar,Jarlaxle,Artemis,Thibbledworf Pwent, etc. I just don't want to see a world where Drizzt can't fail. That would rob the forgotten realms of it's integrity. But enough about that, I don't want the thread to go off topic. What really bothers me about the realms is how can Drizzt not make a move on Cattie-Brie? She ain't getting any younger!:D |
| Derren S.01-12-07, 06:39 AM | I just don't want to see a world where Drizzt can't fail. Then close your eyes because the FR is already such a world (except for pseudofailures which always lead up to even greater glory). |
| MarkusTay6301-12-07, 09:23 AM | A psuedo-failure? :confused: :lightbulb I like that..... Player: "Oh no! That was my last hit point..." DM: "Don't worry, I'm using the Ghostwalk rules, so Death is merely a pseudo-failure." :D |
| MerrikCale01-12-07, 09:27 AM | one thing that bothers me is the name. who forgot what exactly? |
| GothicDan01-12-07, 09:42 AM | Earth forgot the Realms of Faerun. |
| MarkusTay6301-13-07, 01:57 PM | There used to be a VERY good reason, but it's been so long that everyone Forgot. (?) ;) Actually, although Dan is probably correct concerning Ed's original intention (ie, Realms lost to the mists of time), I think in 3e it would be best to have it mean that it is a world FILLED with lost civilizations. There is quite a bit of 'buried' history, and scholars are constantly finding traces of other 'forgotten peoples' (These scholars of course being the designers/authors of realmslore). Just my take, thats all. |
| Mazalon01-13-07, 05:35 PM | THAT I CAN't FIND A HIGH QUALITY MAP OF THE SILVER MARCHES ONLINE!!!!!:mad: |
| Karsus the Mad01-15-07, 09:38 PM | Earth forgot the Realms of Faerun. I think that's right on the spot actually. It wouldn't be called Forgotten Realms if they weren't "realms that we (as humanity) had forgotten". |
| Old Sage01-15-07, 10:56 PM | Or rather, from Ed - "This, by the way, is where the “Forgotten” part of “Forgotten Realms” came from: we people of real-world Earth have ‘forgotten’ the once-widely-used gates to Toril, which gave us our legends of vampires, dragons, et al." |
| Karsus the Mad01-16-07, 07:06 PM | Or rather, from Ed - "This, by the way, is where the “Forgotten” part of “Forgotten Realms” came from: we people of real-world Earth have ‘forgotten’ the once-widely-used gates to Toril, which gave us our legends of vampires, dragons, et al." Even better of an explaination!:) An amazing thing, FR. |
| Myomorphas01-16-07, 07:15 PM | Nothing really bothers me about the Realms. I'm a big fan of Drizzt, but all the sick fangirls of his out there make me wanna kill a cute, cuddly creature. |
| _SIN_01-16-07, 09:39 PM | What annoys me about the FR setting is the lack of Official FR Adventures, and the ones that are available aren't easily linked. The levels range all over the place. There's no nice selection of adventures that flow. You get one for levels 1-3, then another 8-12, etc, etc... The authors for the FR material should learn to realise that they're an elite. They get paid daily to sit and write adventures, suppliments and what-not. Everybody knows that the more time & effort injected into the creation of an adventure usually dictates it's success (from the player point of view). Although this isn't always the case, it'd be nice to see more tailored FR adventures so DM's can fit 'work' in too. *Is it just me or my poor memory, but I'm sure you could buy shed loads of pre-written campaign-tailored adventures for 2nd ed?... |
| GothicDan01-16-07, 09:54 PM | There were a lot of adventures published, yes, but also a lot more sourcebooks. With the very sparse release schedule currently in place, it's an either/or thing... And I'd never take an adventure over a sourcebook, personally. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-16-07, 09:56 PM | Your wish is granted: Both FR slots this year will be taken up by adventures. DB |
| _SIN_01-16-07, 10:08 PM | A lot more sourcebooks? Compared to what? There's like 100's D&D products available (excluding miniatures). I know that for AD&D I owned quite a lot of stuff - the class handbooks and alike, but have you taked the time to view the core-rule & sourcebooks? Here's some: Complete Warrior Complete Divine Complete Arcane Masters of the Wild Song & Silence Sword & Fist Magic of Incarnum Races of the Dragon Book of Nine Swords Fiendish Codex I Fiendish Codex II Monster Manual Monster Manual II Monster Manual III Monster Manual IV Dungeonscape Complete Scoundrel (forthcoming) Races of Stone Planar Handbook Unearthed Arcana Book of Dragons: Draconomicon Book of exalted deeds Ghostwalk Arms & Equipment Savage Species Book of Vile Darkness Epic Level Handbook Book of challenges Hero Builder Guide Monsters of Faerun Defenders of Faith Tome & Blood Enemies & Allies Deities & Demigods Stronghold Builders Guide Complete Adventurer Complete Psionic.... I have another 44 books listed on in addition to these on my 'wish list'!! So, why so much a lack of tailored adventures!! |
| Dark Wizard01-16-07, 10:17 PM | Also the as yet undisclosed third FR sourcebook slot for the latter third of the year might likely finished off the mega-adventure trilogy. So, why so much a lack of tailored adventures!! Your above post (and the thread in general) referred to FR specifically, not sure what books for core D&D have to do with this. WotC can sell an accessory, either one with information on a region/organization or one filled with rules and crunch, to both the players and the DM; however, adventures are generally useful only to DMs. Then again, not even all DMs, many just use the regional/crunch accessories to create their own adventures tailored to the specific party they're running. It's simple business, make products that appeal to more. Supplement style sourcebooks also make for better casual reads than adventures. |
| GothicDan01-16-07, 10:36 PM | I was referring to FR-specific sources. I could really care less about 90% of the core rulebooks. If I did, I'd be hanging out on the main boards, not the FR ones. :) And note that I was also talking past tense - during the time of TSR. |
| _SIN_01-17-07, 01:44 AM | My point is that with the old 2nd ed rules you had 3 core books (as now). Then you had the Class handbooks. (modestly priced @ around £10) Then you had the Race handbooks. (also modestly priced @ around £10) Then you had a few (literally) other guide/handbooks like Arms & Equipment. OK, A LOT of those books listed above are core-rules orientated, not FR, but still... FR Campaign setting Players Guide to Faerun Dragons of Faerun Races of Faerun Magic of Faerun Lordss of Darkness Champions of Valor Champions of Ruin The Underdark CoS:Waterdeep Silver Marches Unapproachable East Mysteries of the Moonsea Shining South Serpent Kingdoms Lost Empires of Faerun Power of Faerun Drow of The Underdark Faiths & Pantheons Monsters of Faerun (And how many of these can be snapped up for a tenner??!! And even if they could, you're still talking about £200!) And although there is a wealth of knowledge within these books -they contain very little in the way of rules, so with the FR stuff it's true, you can paint a very impressive picture, going into minute detail (which in itself should improve ones gaming experience), yet there are a lack of rules - which are found in the Core Rule Books. So for detail, it's great, but for practicality - no, not in my books. To make a character truely unique - you do need more than just the 3 Core Books. It seems D&D is going the same way as Games Workshop where I used to be able to buy a 20ml pot of paint for £1 - now it's £2 for 12.5ml :confused: |
| Faraer01-17-07, 08:58 AM | In most cases, D&D books are cheaper than they've ever been, and even more so with modern discounts. For instance, £10 in the early 90s (or £11 in the late 90s) is about £13.50 now, or $26, for a b/w 128-page book. The Realms has never been particularly well served by adventures -- there are only a handful of really good ones. This year we're getting a big page count of them, but they're tightly tied to a timeline of events, which makes them unversatile. They're also tied to the unRealmsianly fast 3E level advancement. |
| Karsus the Mad01-17-07, 08:00 PM | What "truly annoys me" about FR? That there are people that dog, insult, "correct" or otherwise degrade other peoples ideas about FR. That's what truly ************* me off. The exact same attitude from Candlekeep has wormed it's way here. Any imaginative idea that pops up is instantly sqaushed by members, longstanding fans, and authors alike, and is the reason why I utterly refuse to purchase FR products since LEoF and the reason why I refuse to offer opinions to CK or these boards. I fear bashing. |
| MarkusTay6301-18-07, 09:40 AM | Hmmmm. I have gotten that same feeling of late. :( I haven't been here very long, but I do see an alarming trend toward 'bashing'. Anything that 'rocks the boat' gets peoples panties in a bunch. Its only a game folks; if someone wants to kill off a character/God/locale why does it affect everyone else so much? Live and let live... or DIE for that matter. ;) I understand your concerns perfectly KtM, and agree. In the real world, the guy who's always correcting everyone else usually eats alone at lunch. Just my :twocents: (And as far as that OTHER SITE goes, everyone was REAL friendly until I made a certain suggestion... now all my posts are ignored) Open-mindedness seems to be an alien concept. Sad, really, when you consider that twenty years ago it was that kind of attitude that had folks treating Gamers like we were a DISEASE. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-18-07, 09:48 AM | (And as far as that OTHER SITE goes, everyone was REAL friendly until I made a certain suggestion... now all my posts are ignored) I have to ask: What suggestion did you make? :D DB |
| MarkusTay6301-18-07, 09:58 AM | I suggested an 'over cosmology', that would incorporate all the individual 'world cosmologies'. The mod posted the next day that he had received "MANY concerned E-mails from members" and that we should stick to how certain planes relate to FR ONLY. Since then I've been pretty much ignored. I tried to think 'outside the box', and forgot I was dealing with folks who 'built the box'. :D I just get a kick out of the fact that a game that was originally 99% routed in imagination has now come full circle and has more rules then the RW. Damn shame, I remember playing this game on the beach without any rule books around... and we had FUN! |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-18-07, 10:29 AM | There are always two sides to a story, but whoops... I knew the CK folks can be extremely touchy when someone questions or - perish the thought - criticizes the designers' ideas, but this sounds outright disturbing :hides: DB |
| MarkusTay6301-18-07, 11:46 AM | True that, but that quote above is the truth, I swear. When I read 'many concerned members' I pictured the Spanish Inquisition in my mind. :D A bit over the top, mind you, but thats just how MY imagination works. Candlekeep: "Blasephemy! Admit it! Ye be a witch!" Of course, instead of using hot pokers they would be burning all of my non-canon sourcebooks to torture me. :rofl: Sorry to any Candlekeep members here, I'm just having a little fun. ;) I don't know what I would do without that wonderful resource. Perhaps I 'read into' things too much, life long habit I guess. :( Please don't take offense. |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-18-07, 01:57 PM | True that, but that quote above is the truth, I swear. Oh, don't worry; CK has left me alternately shaking and scratching my head more than once, so I'm inclined to believe you. In situations like the one you described your impression regarding the Spanish Inquisition sounds about right :D DB |
| GothicDan01-18-07, 03:30 PM | One of the reasons why I don't hang around Candlekeep as much as I used to is due to what I like to call "over-modding." I think everyone should be fully open to criticism. A man who is insulted by intelligent critique is someone who fears seeing himself. What I find amusing enough is that it isn't the lorekeepers at CK who really get huffy about such things... But the overly Pro-WotC ones. |
| Krash01-18-07, 08:15 PM | What "truly annoys me" about FR? That there are people that dog, insult, "correct" or otherwise degrade other peoples ideas about FR. That's what truly ************* me off. The exact same attitude from Candlekeep has wormed it's way here. Any imaginative idea that pops up is instantly sqaushed by members, longstanding fans, and authors alike, and is the reason why I utterly refuse to purchase FR products since LEoF and the reason why I refuse to offer opinions to CK or these boards. I fear bashing. The interesting thing is, why do people post their "ideas about FR"? If they do such a thing not expecting comment and likely criticism, then they are naive to the extreme. If they do so only so other people can gush about how smart and wonderful they are, then they obviously need some help on the self-esteem side of the ledger. We are talking about an imaginary world with a myriad of interpretations. There is room for everyone. But there is also room for criticism - whether constructive or otherwise. It's that 'free speech' thing that Americans obsess over. Personally and for what it's worth (zero, in actual fact) I think most of the "FR ideas" that get 'squashed' are the ones that are wacky, ill-thought out, predicated on ridiculous assertions or elements, or just radical for the sake of being radical. Hey, whatever floats anyone's boat - but don't expect people to smile benignly when someone talks about their 'great idea' which to the observer isn't a great idea at all. -- George Krashos |
| Dexter_Blacktyde01-18-07, 08:46 PM | I think most of the "FR ideas" that get 'squashed' are the ones that are wacky, ill-thought out, predicated on ridiculous assertions or elements, or just radical for the sake of being radical. Hey, whatever floats anyone's boat - but don't expect people to smile benignly when someone talks about their 'great idea' which to the observer isn't a great idea at all. That someone asking for opinions should welcome constructive criticism should go without saying; that's not necessarily the point. (BTW, I've seen plenty of good ideas over the last twenty years, but that's just me.) Anyway, there's criticism, and there's criticism. There's "That's the dumbest pile of crap I've had to read in a while, but thanks for the laugh, I needed one", and there's "I don't like your idea, but feel free to use it in your campaign; anyhow, have you thought of the connection to the history of Damara, mentioned in the Bloodstone Lands from 1989, just in case you don't wanna contradict that source?", but there's "That's utter nonsense and absolutely impossible, because [insert OOP sourcebook here] points out on page 112, third paragraph, that..." also, followed by "Indeed; furthermore [insert another OOP sourcebook here] clearly states on page 38...", followed by "Exactly, and Ed himself replied on August 29th, 2004, that..." - when all the OP wanted to hear was the other users' opinions, not where he went wrong and desecrated all that is holy in Faerûn. Of course I can only speak from my personal point of view, but I've seen quite a lot of ideas on these boards I found wacky, ill-thought out and so on. My impression is they get criticized, bashed even - often rightly so - on these boards less than better, more "realmsy" ideas on CK. Here you run the same risk of getting the reply "That sucks!" as the risk of getting the reply, "That's wrong!" on CK. Sometimes it feels like the FR police department over there ;) DB |
| Dark Wizard01-18-07, 10:25 PM | On this semi-related tangent, the thing that annoys me the most about Candlekeep is not so much the corrections or criticisms, or lack thereof (to varying degrees, I feel that's what Candlekeep is for), but that the forums are overly dedicated to discussions on the Realms, only and absolutely the Realms. The mods are way too quick to jump on side discussions, even ones related to the Realms or the fantasy genre in general. These discussions are of interest to the visitors of the CK forums. I feel that if you want to get a good look at anything, you can't just look at it from one angle, or just view it alone, you need to think about the larger picture. I have no doubt in my mind that such discussions if given a little room will enrich everyone's experience of the Realms and all things related. For example, while the various FR designers devote a large amount of their time to the Realms, the Realms aren't the only thing they look at. I just feels that sometimes the mods have a misplaced and overdeveloped "spider-sense" about topics becoming troublesome. At times it feels the peace kept on the forums are due more to the iron handed watch than any good behavior on the part of the participants. Maybe that's just my multi-disciplinary training, which in real life is treated as nearly heretical to some, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. [off rant] |
| Alac Luin01-18-07, 10:45 PM | I've criticized some ideas, I've had a few of my ideas criticized. Its part of the type of forum. Sometimes, there is "favoritism" and even virtual "black listing" in some cases. It happens, and its not always fair, but its part of community aspect of the forums. What am I trying to say? I'm not even sure. :D |
| Xiane01-20-07, 11:33 AM | My personal beefs with FR: - The statistical pigeon holing of Drizzt. He's a plot device in a novel. Stop making him a barbarian cause of the hunter! IF you wanna be that ****, give him a level of wizard as well since he had capabilities of such in sorcere in Homelands. - Elminster, Mr. I'm 500+ years old, half demi god, fingers in more pots than I have right to, have more groove than austin powers and more lovers than even the slickest cassanova despite looking like an old fart and acting like one! Least Rastilin had flaws. - The Sword Coast - the only area that really matters anymore. BAck when TSR was in charge FR had a ton of interesting locales. - Manshoon: The GM's god send of an evil villain. IF he's killed a clone can wake up. HAs more power than a demi god. MAkes dragons and beholders quiver in fear and the only thing that keeps the Zhents from taking over is: they're complete and utter idiots destroying themselves from within via in fighting. - 101 heoes. 3-4 villains. Other than Drizzt's assassin enemy (I'd just screw his name to hell and back), Jaraxle and Manshoon has there been any notible long lasting villains? YEah yo uhave the shadow masters and the zhents but generally from both organizations the flavor of the month gets killed by the end of the book. King Many arrows looks promising but will anything come of an orcish empire? I doubt it. |
| MarkusTay6301-20-07, 03:32 PM | I wouldn't consider Jarlaxle a villain. I think of him more as an anti-hero (there is a difference). I did have a laugh at the 'Elminster's Groove' thing. :D I picture him without his robes on (just some big funky pataloons) and rubbing his nipples while saying "Am I makin' you haawny baaaby?" Sad part is, it usually works for him. ;) You're right about needing some more super-villains, a Dark-lord type that makes the rest look like pansies would be cool. You also forgot about tzass-tam, but he's more of an entempreneur then a villain nowadays. |
| DreamStalker01-20-07, 04:24 PM | Larloch Halaster The Zulkirs of Thay (some of which are flavors of the month) Tchzzar Errtu the Arcane Brotherhood the Cintri Ultimately DnD has been a game about heroes overcoming villians (wether anti-heroes or actual noble heroes). In that vein most interesting villians are set up to be defeated if they are of middling power. 3rd edition FR tried to shift the focus back on interesting villians for the PCs to be facing, but novels still have this urge to go for the good guys defeating the bad guys. One of my complaints of late is that there is again a focus on world shaking events. I prefer most stories to focus on localized avenues and the occasional Realms-threatening plot. Another of my complaints is loosing an FR novel when I am 218 pages in to it, when it is the second novel of a trilogy that I fully bought and the local book stores not restocking it. |
| Stigger01-20-07, 05:18 PM | Then there's the whole mess of the Impilturan demon cyst thing with Eltab, the Succubus whose name just totally eludes me, and her corrupted prince consort... the Energizer villains from what I've read on them. |
| DreamStalker01-20-07, 05:23 PM | Yes. I think there are plenty of villians to focus on. They are just not a focus of the novels. |
| BrennonGoldeye01-20-07, 10:58 PM | Gawd I hate Firefox.... nothing like trying to check your spelling and having 30mins worth of typing being shut down.:hoppingma So, let's make this quick and not quite as diplomatic as I wanted it. the Energizer villains from what I've read on them. Outsider + Undead consort= Renewing problems for the North. I picture him without his robes on (just some big funky pataloons) and rubbing his nipples while saying "Am I makin' you haawny baaaby?" That's just nasty, and incredibly funny(I laughed so hard I hurt my ribs). Then again anyone who has read the novels El is in knows he is soooo far from this it's an insult, albiet one he would giggle at.:D Now, here's my fun, and if my browser has a fit again I swear I will call Dendar out and have some extra fun somewhere in and around Silicon Valley.. My personal beefs with FR: - The statistical pigeon holing of Drizzt. He's a plot device in a novel. Stop making him a barbarian cause of the hunter! IF you wanna be that ****, give him a level of wizard as well since he had capabilities of such in sorcere in Homelands. And exactly what class would he have picked up from Wulfgar? Psion?(My humor is returning watching Bugs Bunny in a Superman suit fight Hitler on one channel on the tely and flipping to a movie called Bubba-Ho-Tep, I'm sure Ra and Jorel are spinning around somewhere:rofl: ) Elminster, Mr. I'm 500+ years old, half demi god, fingers in more pots than I have right to, have more groove than austin powers and more lovers than even the slickest cassanova despite looking like an old fart and acting like one! Least Rastilin had flaws. Now the humor gets darker. I ask for a little leway from the WizO's. Read a frikin book. I adore Raistlin(note the spelling), but the only thing he ever did that compares to El is giving up the ghost. It's Not 500yrs, it's 1163yrs I do believe(is that right dear Sage?). No demi-god, just a Chosen who was lover and anchor. He spent more time making the pots his fingers are in than U&I have been around. More lovers? True, but all but one I know of are either dead, undead, or floating on the Astral. I have never been a fan of the character that is Elminster Aumar, just a fan of what he is a part of. Now the humor begins again. As this thread is about what ticks us off about the Realms, I offer this. What in the world is that whole Pluma magic thing? Is Mystra a realmsian Goddess or just a faerunian Goddess? If she is the incarnation of magic on Aber-Toril exactly why doesn't that extend to Aber-Honduras?;) |
| Old Sage01-20-07, 11:55 PM | It's Not 500yrs, it's 1163yrs I do believe(is that right dear Sage?).Yes. As of the current year -- 1375 DR. ;) |
| ZolDarklock01-21-07, 01:14 AM | many DM cant run a world without following the exact present timeline, and any realistic changes to the world a PC could make if they played thru that time would be considered an act of treason for some reason... I found the best way to handle the realms is to search thru every accessory/module or whatever and replace every creature/bad guy killed off back to their place of origin, strip majority of the overly ridiculous chosen powers from the few who had them, let them survive by their own wits and powers for once, and then let your PC's loose upon the world, and for god's sake play the bad guys and creatures like they had more common sense than a rock PS - if the players make changes to world let them changes stand, and if the bad guys or creatures just happen to stomp the hell out of a good guy or chosen, let that stand also My PC's have adventured in the realms for decades, from day one, it was no longer a WotC realm, it was the PC's realm, I can't see how any FR game could possible resemble the present realms, unless the DM is one of those drag by the nose, and it is a crime to change the official timeline of things... and that aint gaming, that's just inviting your friends over to watch your DM show off the realms official timeline with his players as guest observers and for heavens sake, ignore the hell out of what some author wrote in a book, In my world Shimmergloom ate Drizzt's friends, Fzoul runs the most powerful group of independant bad guys, he wised up, and Eliminister surronds himself with powerfull allies to keep from losing his head, his meddeling ways has been stopped "he's been warned" and the best side adventures my PC's enjoy from time to time, is when I let them decide how the factions do, during the ToT my players battled it out in the confrotations between the gods, Bane kicked Torm's ass and a few others, Myrkul lost his head to Bhaal's dagger deep in undermountain, which was being wielded by Artemis who found a way to defeat Bhall and take it from him, Azuth was torn to pieces by Kartek/Shoon/Saed/and Zire Prakis, Cyric was dead day one, seem the pitiful little weak thief got eaten by a random encounter a freakin owlbear of all things, and Midnight got disentegrated by Maxam a beholder, my PC's took her amulet fled to Mulhorand where Tiamat took it from them, who then lost it to The Fangs of Set Adventurers, who then lost it to a bad-ass blue dragon who worshipped a minor dragon god of magic while they where trying to battle my PC's for it again, and so on...stuff happens, let it stand as it was played out... |
| Krash01-21-07, 01:30 AM | Then there's the whole mess of the Impilturan demon cyst thing with Eltab, the Succubus whose name just totally eludes me, and her corrupted prince consort... the Energizer villains from what I've read on them. The Energizer villains?? -- George Krashos |
| Stigger01-21-07, 02:27 AM | As in the Battery company commercials from way back a while ago... age is showing I guess. Main thing is the recurring theme of the succubus queen, the ultimately unimportant undead prince is just her current main lackey by which to punish uppity little Impiltur for spurning her oh-so-benevolent rulership attempts. |
| GothicDan01-21-07, 03:44 AM | Sometimes I frankly am shocked that the Realms isn't a cesspool of darkness, madness, and death as it is, with the number of powerful evil villains there are. We don't hear about them because DMs are supposed to be using them and creating their own on top of it. |
| Lemernis01-21-07, 10:56 AM | I have mixed feelings about how transparently derivative so many of the locations are from the real world. On the one hand, such a system lacks originality. But on the other hand, it does create real life "touchstones" that are convenient for gamers. The most glaring example, I think, would be Mulhorand, which if I understand correctly was founded by people who literally portalled from real life's Egypt on (a fantasy version of) earth! That is just flat out immersion breaking to me. We all know the other derivations: Kara-Tur = the Orient, Chult = Africa, Zakhara = Arabia, Maztica = Mexico/Central America, Chessenta = Greece, Moonshaes = Celtic Isles, Amn = Iberia, Calimshan = Turkey, and so on. I'm aware that Ed Greenwood in his original conception had detailed the lands outside of Faerun only very sparsely, and it was TSR who developed these lands as we know them today. |
| Stigger01-21-07, 01:55 PM | Weird, I always equated Calimshan with ancient Persia. Seems a better fit to me. |
| Lemernis01-21-07, 02:07 PM | Yeah, I have seen Persia referenced for Calimshan as well. I think that inspiration is definitely there. But Steven Schend has said that he did layer in a lot of grace notes from Turkish history and culture in order to better differentiate Calimshan from Zakhara, and the Bedine culture of the Anauroch Desert, both of which were more directly inspired by Arabic culture. |
| BrennonGoldeye01-21-07, 02:44 PM | The Energizer villains?? -- George Krashos You must admit that is a quotable quote, eh George?:) |
| Alac Luin01-21-07, 08:15 PM | Now the humor begins again. As this thread is about what ticks us off about the Realms, I offer this. What in the world is that whole Pluma magic thing? Is Mystra a realmsian Goddess or just a faerunian Goddess? If she is the incarnation of magic on Aber-Toril exactly why doesn't that extend to Aber-Honduras?;) Mystra is the weave, not only of Toril, but of all Realmspace. Mystra is not always worshiped on all the worlds of Realmspace. "Pluma Magic" is just one tradition of magic that exists on Toril. (same as "hishna magic", the other Maztican tradition.) Pluma Magic was taught to the Mazticans by Qotal, who received it from his mother the goddess Maztica. Hishna was given by Zaltec, before this. In this regard, pluma magic is no different then Elvin High Magic. Corellon taught elves their spellcasting traditions. Thoth taught the the Mulhorandi their spellcasting traditions. There is really nothing "odd" about Puma magic, unless you don't like the Maztica area. :) |
| Old Sage01-21-07, 08:30 PM | Yeah, I have seen Persia referenced for Calimshan as well. I think that inspiration is definitely there. But Steven Schend has said that he did layer in a lot of grace notes from Turkish history and culture in order to better differentiate Calimshan from Zakhara, and the Bedine culture of the Anauroch Desert, both of which were more directly inspired by Arabic culture.Indeed. During Steven's later development of the region, he focused on making Calimshan less Arabian and more Turkish/Ottoman Empire (since there was the AL-QADIM setting covering the Arabian stuff quite well). Steven equates Calimshan with Medieval Turkey and the Byzantine Empire. |
| MarkusTay6301-21-07, 09:02 PM | Indeed. Steven equates Calimshan with Medieval Turkey and the Byzantine Empire.Aaaaaarrrgh! I've already re-made northern Mulhorand into 'MY' Byzantine Empire (With Unther being the other half - Rome). Might have to switch that now, since Unther fell and Mulhorand is still there I guess I will make Messemprar my new Byzantium, with the 'evil' hordes beating at the walls. Since my players haven't been anywhere near that area switching is simple. I just like the whole 'last bastion of ancient civilization' thing. Then again, if I still use my map of Constantinople for Skuld I could play it more as a 'what if' scenario. In other words, the Eastern Roman Empire survives but the Western one falls instead. If the Ottoman hadn't taken down the city it might have gone down that way. I read one of those 'alternate universe' books once called Byzantium, and in that Mohammed had converted to Christianity and was known years later as St. Mehmet. Would be a whole different world today. Hmmmmm.... To keep this on topic, one of the other things that bothers me is exactly WHAT does Mystra control? Depending on what you read, the answer is always different. Originally she only had power over the same geographic area as the Faerunian Pantheon (and Ao ONLY controlled that area as well). Then it switched to Mystra controlling magic in Realmspace, which made more sense. Then they screwed it all up by creating the Shadow weave, which is magic BUT she doesn't control it. Then, they allow the 'Weave' to extend to certain other planes/domains. They really need to make up their mind about this, Does she control ALL magic or doesn't she? :confused: |
| BrennonGoldeye01-21-07, 09:24 PM | They really need to make up their mind about this, Does she control ALL magic or doesn't she? My question exactly. I don't care what the answer is, just as long as there is one.:) |
| Krash01-22-07, 03:00 AM | As in the Battery company commercials from way back a while ago... age is showing I guess. Main thing is the recurring theme of the succubus queen, the ultimately unimportant undead prince is just her current main lackey by which to punish uppity little Impiltur for spurning her oh-so-benevolent rulership attempts. I don't get it. Is the OP saying that the concept of a succubus queen seeking to manipulate and eventually conquer a kingdom is a prevalent theme in the Realms? Or are they pointing to a seeming cliche that she keeps on trying to takeover Impiltur but is thwarted at every turn? -- George Krashos |
| Stigger01-22-07, 07:08 AM | Neither... was simply pointing out that as a recurring villain, that succubus has a longevity of enmity with Impiltur that not many beyond Malkazid could hope to compare to. She's been a thorn in Impiltur's side for an extremely long time, despite being a relatively weakness in terms of CR. |
| Alac Luin01-22-07, 10:11 PM | They really need to make up their mind about this, Does she control ALL magic or doesn't she? :confused: My question exactly. I don't care what the answer is, just as long as there is one.:) Ahh, I see... Mystra is and always has been the Weave of all Realmspace. But she was not known in all parts of the world and she allowed other "regional" or Racial deities access to her Weave. (the weave itself gets stronger by responsible usage) The Shadow Weave is only recently being spread and still not well known throughout the world. So, to the average Joe who is not privy to Shar's secrets, all magic must come from Mystra. The outer planes are formed on Belief, since Mystra is believed (by almost everyone that knows of her) to be able to deny access to magic, is is able to do such in her home plane. |
| MarkusTay6301-22-07, 10:39 PM | Fair enough. Canon, or pure conjecture? Either way it works for me. |
| Alac Luin01-22-07, 11:00 PM | A little of both. The Weave was born when Mytryl was first formed, durring a battle between Selune and Shar (cannon) Not Known everywhere, conjecture, but based on the fact she isn't worshiped everywhere. Deals with other magic deities- Congecture but based on words from the likes of Ed Greenwood, Rich Baker,..... Shadow Weave not well known- Cannon Outer planes based on belief - Cannon, heck in the planescape setting an entite city could move from one plane to another if there was a significant shift in belief of the people resideing there. Mystra able to stop access based on this belief- conjecture. But shouldn't a deity be powerful on thier own plane anyway? :) |
| GirlThief01-23-07, 06:59 PM | As of now, my greatest dislike of FR is the fact that the elf races aren't just long lived, they're insanely long lived. A few hundred years is understandable, but you have these creatures who's lives are spanning over a thousand years; it just doesn't seem feasible for anything to live that long, in my opinion. I know they have Evermeet to "run off to" but it makes it difficult for someone to play an elven character who's six hundred years old, for example; there's a certain amount of imperfection that everyone strives to overcome in their lifetime, and I'd think after a few hundred years you'd get dangerously close to having worked out pretty much all of your flaws. If they cut the lifespan back to maybe 400 years tops, I'd love the FR elves with my entire being! :) |
| Asgetrion01-24-07, 07:31 PM | My main complaint with the Realms is the same one I have with nearly every published campaign setting, for any game: the "nothing happened until 20 years ago" syndrome. There's mounds of history, sure. However, up until the past 20 years before the campagin starts, things happen once a decade. Now, there's some "major" event once a month. I know the obvious OOC reasoning, and even IC you could say "records have been lost" or "no one remembers the less important stuff except scholars", but it just bugs me. Nothing that can be done about it, mind, and at least FR's not as bad about it as some other settings. I think if Ed (Greenwood) could have shown us HIS Realms, as they have always been, a lot of things in Realmslore would be different (well, there would be tons and tons of more information, if not anything else ;) Let's not forget that his campaigns are full of tiny details, events, history, intrigue, etc. So, I am completely convinced that somewhere in his dark and damp cellar (and guarded by some very aggressive Watchspiders) lies buried a huge pile of scrolls about the history of the Realms For one thing, there would be no Drizzt (a drow Drizzt, anyway) since Ed has revealed that he did not mean the Drow when he originally referred to 'dark elves'. Instead, these were ALBINO elves, who had been exiled to the Underdark long, long ago... |
| Karsus the Mad01-24-07, 07:40 PM | As of now, my greatest dislike of FR is the fact that the elf races aren't just long lived, they're insanely long lived. A few hundred years is understandable, but you have these creatures who's lives are spanning over a thousand years; it just doesn't seem feasible for anything to live that long, in my opinion. I know they have Evermeet to "run off to" but it makes it difficult for someone to play an elven character who's six hundred years old, for example; there's a certain amount of imperfection that everyone strives to overcome in their lifetime, and I'd think after a few hundred years you'd get dangerously close to having worked out pretty much all of your flaws. If they cut the lifespan back to maybe 400 years tops, I'd love the FR elves with my entire being! :) In previous editions they were effectively immortal. I'm rather grateful for their long, yet limited lives. At least now they die whether they desire to or not. |
| Asgetrion01-24-07, 07:49 PM | My personal beefs with FR: - The statistical pigeon holing of Drizzt. He's a plot device in a novel. Stop making him a barbarian cause of the hunter! IF you wanna be that ****, give him a level of wizard as well since he had capabilities of such in sorcere in Homelands. - Elminster, Mr. I'm 500+ years old, half demi god, fingers in more pots than I have right to, have more groove than austin powers and more lovers than even the slickest cassanova despite looking like an old fart and acting like one! Least Rastilin had flaws. - The Sword Coast - the only area that really matters anymore. BAck when TSR was in charge FR had a ton of interesting locales. - Manshoon: The GM's god send of an evil villain. IF he's killed a clone can wake up. HAs more power than a demi god. MAkes dragons and beholders quiver in fear and the only thing that keeps the Zhents from taking over is: they're complete and utter idiots destroying themselves from within via in fighting. - 101 heoes. 3-4 villains. Other than Drizzt's assassin enemy (I'd just screw his name to hell and back), Jaraxle and Manshoon has there been any notible long lasting villains? YEah yo uhave the shadow masters and the zhents but generally from both organizations the flavor of the month gets killed by the end of the book. King Many arrows looks promising but will anything come of an orcish empire? I doubt it. I hardly consider the spell 'Stasis Clone' to render Manshoon "more power than a demi god". He may be powerful, but archmages of his caliber tend to be... just read about Demigods in the "Deities and Demigods" or "Faiths and Pantheons" just how much power a demigod (in mechanical terms) has. He makes a great recurring villain, and I always felt that the whole 'Clone' issue was meant as a campaign hook for high-level PCs ("Go and hunt all of his clones"). I have also felt that the lack of high-level villains tends to be about two things: 1) So that all DMs could fashion any number of potential Zhentarim/Dragon Cult/Shadow Thief agents as major villains as befits their campaigns (and their perspective of how powerful, say, a local Zhent commander should be). 2) There are probably more neutral and good than evil people than. Your true "bad-and-mad-and-crazy-as-hell" Cyricists or Dragon Cultists (every DM's favorite villains :) tend to be a very small minority. Also, villains lead a very dangerous life, since they are not only killed by heroes and adventurers, but also by their own "allies"/brothers-in-arms/friends/etc. |