Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kiwidoc 06-19-03, 10:17 PM	I have been reading the new data on the Crown Wars in order to update the sites, and this has got me thinking. I have also seen a few threads discussing the history of the Drow, criticising the latest view in which the Drow seem to be blamed for everything. These are links to updated sections on Dlabraddath sites for more background. The Descent of the Drow (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-sshamath/History.htm#The%20Descent%20of%20the%20D row) ~ links to a detailed breakdown of what source gives what version of the elements in the legend/story/history Elven History - A Summary (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/History-Summary.htm) Elven Time line - the Crown Wars (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/timeline.htm#Crown) Let me summarise a couple of points about the Crown Wars so you can see why I am intrigued. * The Drow are not claimed to be the sole cause of the start of these wars. Sun elven arrogance and ambition are also cited by RoF, and FRCs as being a cause. Aryvandaar is also aggressive and destructive, and so are other realms * The Crown wars continued after the Drow were banished. The destruction and violence continued for another 1,000 years. So what was it that the dark elves did that was so bad - why were they singled out for such extreme punishment? Was it because they turned their back on the Seldarine? Was it because Lolth (or Lloth) had been involved in treachery amongst the Seldarine and an attempted "coup" - and therefore followers of Lolth were more wicked than followers of other enemies of the Seldarine? Were the crimes committed by the dark elves during the war that much worse than those of the other elves? What kind of crimes would cause such an extremem punishment? Is it something else entirely? I would love to hear your opinons on this. I know this is a subject people hold strong views about, and I know these views can differ. I started this thread trusting we can have an interesting discussion and a lively debate without getting personal or abusive. Please no flame lancers and leave the fireballs at home :)
Peter D. 06-19-03, 10:50 PM	IMC, it is a Shakespearean type of level gone wrong. Of course, Corellon-the Man, emerged with a better rep than Lloth-the Woman. I drew heavily on King Lear. Though, herein this tale; Lloth demanded affection and respect. Causing the problems, even those Corellon (playing a role reversal of the Good Daughter) could have stopped. The Drow lost because "good" failed in matters of the heart.
carhesl 06-19-03, 10:57 PM	The truth would turn your brain to mush, and twist your soul into a corkscrew.
Solarian Taumoth 06-19-03, 11:48 PM	The Crown Wars were a series of wars, the First Crown War starting when the Vyshaan clan of gold elves tried to annex several other kingdoms of elves into their own kingdom, Aryvandaar. I believe the dark elves, or dhaeraow" as they would later be called, were so bad because their methods were so fierce and brutal. By the time of the Fourth War, the dark elves hated all races, except their own. The other elves and Seldarine finally figured that enough was enough and decided to banish them below in an action that is known as "The Descent." As a side note, the Fifth Crown War was when the overthrow of the Vyshaan clan took place. According to legend, however, four sons of Vyshaan disappeared. Some say they headed to the west (maybe past Evermeet) and others say that they took to the stars. Interesting.
Celtavian 06-20-03, 02:14 AM	I think they were banished for turning away from the Seldarine, using dark powers, and allowing themselves to be manipulated by Lolth who was banished from Arvyandor. Thus, the dark elves received the same punishment as the goddess they chose to worship.
VengefulGazeofGod 06-20-03, 03:02 AM	[i] Some say they headed to the west (maybe past Evermeet) and others say that they took to the stars. Interesting. [/B] Took to the stars? Spelljammer, maybe? :cool:
KaeYoss 06-20-03, 08:14 AM	In addition to their brutality and arrogance, they started to worship evil gods (the Dark Seldarine, not just Lolth or her son Vharaun). That was the last straw.
Jack in the Green 06-20-03, 08:30 AM	They didnt put the seat down.
Iuducium 06-20-03, 08:58 AM	The drow were banished for allying themselves with devils and demons of the Lower Planes and using the powers granted by these demons. They also followed Araushnee (Lolth's previous form) in her alliance and worship of dark and evil gods, and used the gifts of evil to attempt to end the war and rule the other elves. Some sources say they even attempted to invade Arvandor. For their crimes against the Seldarine and elvenkind, they were turned into the drow in -10000 DR by Corellon. They fled to the Underdark, and the first city, Menzoberranzan, was built in -9600 by Menzoberra the Kinless, a follower of Araushnee, who was now Lolth, as she had been cursed with the rest of her people and was bonded with a spider demon.
Zanan 06-20-03, 09:16 AM	Vendui! Well, one could simply say that it was out of fear. If I remember it correctly, during the last decades of the Fourth Crown War, the Ilythiiri were in the ascendency. They had more or less conquered or subdued any Elven Realm from the Shaar up to the Forest of Tethyr (Keltomir) and were lining up against the gold elves from the High Forest. In case they had won, the power of the non-dark elves would have been broken. Which in turn would have reversed the godly powers' hierarchy, since Lolthites and Ghaunadaurians would have ruled supreme. (Of course, the Ilythiiri were not as hate-consumed as their Drow heirs and did not kill each and every elf in those days.) On the other side, as is written in Cormanthor, it was because ... After the Dark Disaster, the elves of Keltormir enjoyed peace for only a scant two decades before the Fourth Crown War raged through their domain and all other elven domains across Faerun. The final fate of Miyeritar so enraged the Ilythiiri that their battle-rage and sheer barbarism destroyed the realm of Shamel Othreier (the closest outpost of Vyshaantar power) by fire within four decades of the Disaster. Their nonelven tactics, continued hostilities and aggressions, and their all-consuming hatred for all but their own race forced a swift and irrevocable decision from the ruling elves of Keltormir, Aryvandaar, and other enclaves: The Ilythiiri, or "dhaeraow" must be cast out of Corellonís favor! (p. 22) I did already mention at some other place that the Dark Disaster was caused by the Gold Elves of Aryvandaar and destroyed the Green and Dark Elven realm of Miyeritar - just to make sure what they are speaking about. Perhaps some Elves saw the injustice wrought upon the Ilythiiri, for ... All elves on and under Toril's surface do not discuss the Descent under any circumstances, other than to admit it happened and there is nothing but hatred between the drow and all other elves forevermore. (p. 22 as well) Obviously, the Drow perceived the Descent as unjust and "rightly" vented their hatred be killing and hunting Corellon's kin. People talk about the "evil" stuff the Ilythiiri used and what have you. But, let's remember this: it was war. The elves ruled the trees and woods, the dark elves did not. Thus, they used standard tactics any (well apart from treehuggers and greenpeace activists) general would use, fire. This was very much against any Elven dogma and thus the Elven deities had the justification they needed to safe their own status ... :smirk:
Prince Indirian 06-20-03, 05:57 PM	We all know that the decent of the dark elves was unfair. We just have to realize and accept that fact. I belivie that it was mistake by Corellon and the Seladarine as it didn't end the Crown Wars. But also know that if the had banished the Gold elves instead, the dark elves would have been exactly as the gold/sun elves. They would have continued to conquer until there was no resistance left. But the exeption would have been that the dark elves main deity would have been Lloth. But one must remember that not all dark elves worshipped Lloth and her gang. Most during the Crown wars probably worshipped Corellon by apparent reasons (domain WAR), while those in control worshipped Lloth. This also proves that of all elven subraces the dark leves and sun elves are the worst/ least suited for ruling the elves (yes I know about Eltargrim) The reason why the worshipped Lloth must have been because they saw the destruction of Miyertar without any involvence by the Seldarine. While Lloth promised to help them if they followed her instead. And because they didn't want to be ruled by gold elves they agreed. And between Aryvanndar and Illityr( I don't remember how you spell it) there were a lot if kingdoms who allied themselves with Aryvanndar out of fear or because it suited them. Therefore the dark elves and the moon elves attacked these countries. Remember that the Ilythiir was ruled by both dark and moon elves and that they shared the devotion of Sehanine Moonbow. If you want to know more about this just read Cormantyr : Empire of Elves, it's all there. As Zanan explained it was WAR and how do you hurt an enemy if is "hidden" ( I use the word kind of loosly) behind his allies? You attack his allies of course. As they say" In war and love anything is allowed/permited. This is also why sun elves hate the dark elves that much. The dark leves were the only ones who could and challenged their power.
Straploknight 06-20-03, 06:30 PM	Yeah baby....drow :bow: I'll go along with Zanan's version of the illthyrii and the drow. They might not have been as savage in the past, but look what the descent did to the drow. forced into an alien environment after being on the losing side of what had become more or less a "holy" war. They didn't have choice in the matter. The drow had to become as savage and fierce as the environment around them. So I think there is a kernel of truth in thier hatred of the surface elves. They (the surface elves) created thier own worst enemy. Then again maybe this was all part of a long range plan by Lolth to stab right at the heart of Corellon. Forced to banish some of his "children" due to the machinations (sp?) of a spurned lover. Granted they are evil (NEUTRAL evil), but if anybody has ever wondered what an elf with human tendecies would be like, the drow are it. In thier repsective environments, they fill a similar niche. both are dominant species, both are under powered compared to the other races (even though they possess spell-like abilites, it pales compared to the aboleth, illithids, psionic using duergar, and on a lesser note even the svrifneblin), what they lack in raw power they make up for in raw ambition and fecundity (did I use that right??)
Arilou_skiff 06-20-03, 10:40 PM	Are the Drow really the dominant species of the Underdark? I've always assumed they were simply co-domimant, but that ex. Illithids were at least as powerful.
Straploknight 06-20-03, 11:59 PM	If they are codominant, it might be with the duergar? However at one time they were hyped as being the "undisputed masters of..." I cant remeber if it was the underdark or thier dark grottos? Anywhosit, we will see after WotSQ, if they are cast out into the wild again?
KaeYoss 06-21-03, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by Prince Indirian This also proves that of all elven subraces the dark leves and sun elves are the worst/ least suited for ruling the elves Yes. Both are not suited to sit on the throne. What you must do is put a moon elf (woshipping Angharradh or Sehanine: Corellon's worshippers are seldom leaders - they are councillors. I'd prefer a female favored by Angharradh, for she was the one who became Corellon's consort after the **** Araushnee was dropped out. I think that a worshipper of the Triune Goddess on the Trhone would anger Lolth without end - and that's always nice) on the throne - and Vhaeraunan Drow behind the throne, pulling the strings. So all the elves (and even humans, not that they matter) would have a king or queen they can live with, and still it would be assured that someone competent would guide the People and the elves would prosper at last. Originally posted by Straploknight In thier repsective environments, they fill a similar niche. both are dominant species, both are under powered compared to the other races (even though they possess spell-like abilites, it pales compared to the aboleth, illithids, psionic using duergar, and on a lesser note even the svrifneblin), what they lack in raw power they make up for in raw ambition and fecundity (did I use that right??) Underpowered? The drow outnumber races like aboleth and illithid. Duergar don't have so many psionicists - they rather have resistence to psionics, and that won't help you against dark elven magic and cunning (also, the drow are known to have psionicists, too). The swirfneblin are both outnumbered and outpowered. See what happened in Blingdenstone. (While demons usually have the upper hand when other races summon them, the fiends know that with a drow summoner, they are equal allies, or even that the drow are the ones in control).
Edge 06-21-03, 01:24 PM	How come everyone keeps saying that in the Descent the Drow were kinda vanished to the underdark. I mean I guess I must have missed that book. Regardless 'member im E.C.'s book Evermeet, Island of Elves... How when the Elves used their High Magic ritual stuff to create Evermeet, the land was taken from different places in faerum to make the Island. A big chunk was taken from a nearby city where the citizens were dark elves. Actually not taken from the city but the ground under it, causeing parts of the city to go underground. After the ritual the Dark elves went down there because they wanted to....and then more wars started up Am I wrong, I may be. maybe I miss read the novel. Peace
Kuje31 06-21-03, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by Edge How come everyone keeps saying that in the Descent the Drow were kinda vanished to the underdark. I mean I guess I must have missed that book. Regardless 'member im E.C.'s book Evermeet, Island of Elves... How when the Elves used their High Magic ritual stuff to create Evermeet, the land was taken from different places in faerum to make the Island. A big chunk was taken from a nearby city where the citizens were dark elves. Actually not taken from the city but the ground under it, causeing parts of the city to go underground. After the ritual the Dark elves went down there because they wanted to....and then more wars started up Am I wrong, I may be. maybe I miss read the novel. Peace Cormanthor:Empire of the Elves has a timeline about the elves and the descent. It says they were banished as does Elaine's novel if I remember right.....
Selvarin 06-21-03, 06:44 PM	Originally posted by Prince Indirian We all know that the decent of the dark elves was unfair. We just have to realize and accept that fact. I belivie that it was mistake by Corellon and the Seladarine as it didn't end the Crown Wars. But also know that if the had banished the Gold elves instead, the dark elves would have been exactly as the gold/sun elves. They would have continued to conquer until there was no resistance left. But the exeption would have been that the dark elves main deity would have been Lloth. But one must remember that not all dark elves worshipped Lloth and her gang. Most during the Crown wars probably worshipped Corellon by apparent reasons (domain WAR), while those in control worshipped Lloth. This also proves that of all elven subraces the dark leves and sun elves are the worst/ least suited for ruling the elves (yes I know about Eltargrim) Oh really. :rolleyes: The dark elves largely abandoned the Seldarine's ethos by that time, choosing power over peace, and they chose unorthodox means of warfare against their brethren. The sun elves had their faults but it was more due to the control of a certain political faction/ruling family, and apparently Corellon deemed that it didn't yet require such an extreme measure to set right. In fact, the rest of the surface elves came to the conclusion that the Vyshaan rulers were the problem and they, backed by Corellon's mandate, were able to rectify the matter (albeit it took many years, by our standards, to come to a conclusion and to a means of dismantling their power structure). There is a difference between dealing with the discovery of a cancer (the Vyshaan) and what esentially amounts to gangrene (the Ilythiiri/drow). Cut off the rot and save the body, or let the rot continue and risk losing the rest? [/QUOTE] The reason why the worshipped Lloth must have been because they saw the destruction of Miyertar without any involvence by the Seldarine. While Lloth promised to help them if they followed her instead. And because they didn't want to be ruled by gold elves they agreed. And between Aryvanndar and Illityr( I don't remember how you spell it) there were a lot if kingdoms who allied themselves with Aryvanndar out of fear or because it suited them. Therefore the dark elves and the moon elves attacked these countries. The dark elves to the south may have been enraged at the attack upon their northern 'brethren' but it was more of a pretext than anything else. The dark elves of Miyeritar were said to have worshipped Eilistraee (see Eilistraee's entry in Demihuman Deities ), would Araushnee really have cared? The Ilythiiri may have initially acted out of rage at the injustice done to Miyeritar, but really, attacking their neighbors when they had little or nothing to do with what happened to Miyeritar? It would be like the States attacking Canada because China invaded Guam, there's no legitimate causal effect. Remember that the Ilythiir was ruled by both dark and moon elves and that they shared the devotion of Sehanine Moonbow. If you want to know more about this just read Cormantyr : Empire of Elves, it's all there. I'm curious about this, since I haven't found it in the Cormanthyr supplement. What I did find was this: By the Time of Flowers (as it was called in Illefarn), the elves had settled into five major civilizations on Faer°n. Spread from north to south along the western coast were Aryvandaar (gold elves), Illefarn (green elves), Miyeritar (dark and green elves), Shantel Othreier (gold and moon elves), and Keltormir (moon and green elves). There were other elven outposts and realms both on Faer°n and beyond in other parts of Toril such as Thearnytaar, Eiell°r, and SyÚrpiir (the predominately green elf kingdoms in the major forest south of the Vilhon Reach) or Orishaar and Ilythiir, the moon and dark elf domains in the woods south of the Lake of Steam (in the forests that once covered the Shaar). The same can be found written up in Demihuman Deities. And although the reference to dark elves in Miyeritar was omitted/expunged in Races of Faerun (presumably to make the actions of the Ilythiiri more logical, since now it's official that they called upon Araushnee/Lolth to destroy that realm), it can be said that green elves, not moon elves, existed or co-existed in Miyeritar. As Zanan explained it was WAR and how do you hurt an enemy if is "hidden" ( I use the word kind of loosly) behind his allies? You attack his allies of course. As they say" In war and love anything is allowed/permited. Zan makes a good point. However, the Ilythiiri were the 'Scorpion clan' of the elves at that time and from what I recall of elven mores some things aren't permitted. The elves tend to live more by the spirit than by the letter in this regard. It's a family thing, and if you treat the other family members as if they weren't then you will not remain a party of the family for long. I have no problem with saying that the Vyshaan rulers of Aryvandaar were despots and expansionists. At the same time I have a problem with this moral relativism creeping in. There's something in the way the pre-Drow (Ilythiiri) handled things that were very un-elven as a whole, and as I've pointed out previously which do you try to deal with first, a rotting limb or a growing cancer? Both can be lethal but gangrene will get you first. And it's the prerogative of Corellon (and the Seldarine) to decide when and where to handle things in a more direct fashion. Remember, the Crown Wars were a horrific time for elves but even as the elves had to handle their own matters the elven gods had to consider how much of their own workings would bring on something worse. *shakes head at having to bring this all up* You know what? This is why I prefer the Races of Faerun version these days. It's concistent, it fits better and it gives a wonderfully valid reason as to why the Ilythiiri were banished--by calling upon Araushnee/Lolth to destroy Miyeritar. If good-aligned drow worshippers were in numbers there along with the green elves then it was like killing three birds with one stone--1) reducing Eilistraee's power in the Realms (which it would/did), 2) by checking the power of the Vyshaan rulers, and 3) by showing that the Ilythiiri had the means to make their power felt far. And of course it gives a nice pretext for the ilythiiri to attack their neighbors, by blaming it on the Vyshaan and doing ***-for-tat in response. There's your answer in a nutshell as to why the Ilythiiri were worse than the sun elves and deserved being cast out. Now if they'll only re-include the reference to dark elves living alongside the green elves in Miyeritar...*hmm*...
Straploknight 06-21-03, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by Edge A big chunk was taken from a nearby city where the citizens were dark elves. Actually not taken from the city but the ground under it, causeing parts of the city to go underground. After the ritual the Dark elves went down there because they wanted to....and then more wars started up Elven propaganda! :mad: :smirk: If your refering to the Great Rift in which the gold dwarves now dwell, it was formally inhabited by the dwarves which the drow expelled then as they have a habit of doing decided to prune the family tree a bit and caused the collapse of the cavern, forming the great rift. So much for stout dwarven engineering. Originally posted by KaeYoss Underpowered? The drow outnumber races like aboleth and illithid. Duergar don't have so many psionicists - they rather have resistence to psionics, and that won't help you against dark elven magic and cunning (also, the drow are known to have psionicists, too). The swirfneblin are both outnumbered and outpowered. See what happened in Blingdenstone. (While demons usually have the upper hand when other races summon them, the fiends know that with a drow summoner, they are equal allies, or even that the drow are the ones in control). The duergar have huge bonuses when it comes to surprise (including a invisibility for every member of the race), not to mention the +2 con and as for Psionicist, I would say that all things being equal, the duergar have just as many psionically endowed members as the drow have magic users and the duergar have probably about as many magic users (if not more) than the drow have psionically endowed members. Despite the equal ECL's I'd say if the duergar were as aggressive as the drow they would have more of a foot hold, but the duergar are a sullen lot resigned to thier self inflicted fate. (Work til you drop, there ain't nuth'n else for'ya in this world) I still say the drow are analogous to humans in respect to thier niche in the underdark and like humans, its thier constant drive for power and fecund nature that has allowed them to dominate the underdark, not a host of uber innate abilities. As a race, one could call them euphemistically "proactive" or on a slightly darker note, "premptive". Look at Ched Nasad. They had until very recently survived very sucessfully in the combined face of a beholder/phaerimm threat. Both superior foes, especially the former which amount to mobile magic dead zones with teeth and disintegration at will.
Selvarin 06-21-03, 09:54 PM	And while I'm at it...if we're going to go all the way back to what was published in the 2E Cormanthyr Arcane Age supplement, here's some more of what I found regarding the Ilythiiri and why they became what they are today: Even though they had originally preached peace among the races at the start of the conflicts, the moon elves of Keltormir found themselves increasingly horrified by the actions and causes of the dark elves. Their obvious relish for warfare, torture, and inflicting pain strayed far from most elven ideals, and their justifications of avenging their northern brothers rang more hollow with each battle and each century. And in the timeline: -11,500 Thearnytaar and Eiellur band together and declare war on Ilythiir, decrying their use of fire and wanton destruction far more than the power plays of the northern elves. They fight aholding action, preventing the Ilythiiri from advancing north. -11,400 Fall of Eiellur as the Ilythiiri once again use fire to destroy their realm around them and isolate them from aid. They also were helped by traitor green elves, who thought their appeasement actions could help restore peace. -11,200 Thearnytaar falls to the savage and now-unrepentant dark elves, who use enslaved monsters and undead to occupy the thorn-and-bramble choked woods. Ilythiir now directly skirmishes with the major realm of Keltormir along its eastern and southern expanses. -10,110 In opposition to the corrupt dark elves of Ilythiir and their continued destruction of the forested elven homelands by fire (an elven enemy of long-standing), over 1,000 priests and High Mages in neutral Illefarn and other free areas spend decades in fervent prayer for salvation by Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine gods. -10,100 Through enslaved dragons and other powers, the dark elves of Ilythiir engulf all of Shantal Othreier in flames, destroying over 70% of its trees over the course of 50 years. Descent of the Drow: Corellon’s magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weaknesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months' passing into the Underdark. Elves are summoned by the Seldarine to the site that becomes Elven Court one month after the Descent of the Drow, to settle differences and restore the peace among the elves. -9200 The Fifth Crown War: The First Proclamation of the Elven Court leads to the revolt of the nobles of Aryvandaar and the last Crown War begins. The Elven Court, the Seldarine priesthoods, and the long-hidden High Mages restore pockets of resistance and freedom across the entire Vyshantaar Empire, fragmenting the armies and nobles to limit their coordination. Again, I largely adhere to the 3E FR material these days regarding the history of the Realms. Nonetheless, the older material can come in handy by answering certain questions and filling in a few gaps.
kiwidoc 06-21-03, 11:57 PM	If you follow the links in my very first post you will see summaries of all the different versions of the Tales/Legends of the Descent - and this covers all the sources quoted and more. I would really recommend you do this before posting, so we don't have to keep covering old ground - thanks. Here are the links again :) The Descent of the Drow (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-sshamath/History.htm#The%20Descent%20of%20the%20D row) ~ links to a detailed breakdown of what source gives what version of the elements in the legend/story/history Elven History - A Summary (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/History-Summary.htm) Elven Time line - the Crown Wars (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/timeline.htm#Crown) Also I would really appreciate it if you stick to the topic - why were the drow punished by being banished from the surface, from following the Seldarine and from an after life in Arvandor. The debate about who are the most dominant of the Underdark peoples is very interesting, but it is a different topic altogther, Maybe we should start a new thread about this :)
ElGrecoETAC 06-22-03, 02:55 AM	Well, the Drow were banished because, unlike the Sun Elves, they eventually went "outside of the box" and used non-Seldarine powers (Aurashnee, Tanar'ri), to fight their wars. Thus, the Descent/their transformation/their banishment from an afterlife in Arvandor; they all corellate with their "separation" from the other Elven kin. The Sun Elves are also punished in a way; though they see themselves as the paragons of Elves--the best followers of the Seldarine--they have to live with not leading. I think that, in the end, it is a literary punishment--the end result of a lesson preaching against extremism. The Moon Elves fit that comfortable "middle ground"--neither too radical, nor too conservative. They now rule. Thus, the Sun Elves sit by the sidelines. They act superior and smug, and treat the Humans with disdain, but they are embarassingly forced to keep their history hidden, lest they reveal their damning mistakes. For a people possessed of great pride and love for tradition, this is a major price. The Drow stepped away from the ways of their people, took "new" gods and allies, and thus stopped being like Elves--and were cursed with a very "photo-negative" appearance, which I think is a message unto itself. So many people focus on how it's biologically possible, etc., etc., to look like that, but no one brings up the fact that they look like the photographic OPPOSITE of their people. In my campaign, I play the Sun Elves as less arrogant and bigoted, and much more secretive (concerning history) and sad/apologetic creatures (concerning their past actions). I also make them primary victims for Drow, who loathe them more than any other Elf--because they believe that their gold cousins "got off easy". On the flip side, the Drow don't so much hate the Moon and Wood Elves as much as disdain/enjoy raiding them, and they have no beef or much of any contact with the Green Elves.
Selvarin 06-22-03, 03:48 AM	I prefer direct quotes from the sources themselves where possible, especially considering I have all the pertinent 1E/2E sources in PDF format. But to summarize from the sources I've posted, the drow were guilty of commiting increasingly unprovoked attacks upon their neighbors, of fomenting dissent among others (such as assassinating leaders), using summoned monsters and undead in their conflicts, using fire as a means of warfare against other elves (indeed, of decimating the lands of the other factions), and of their very un-elvish delight in killing and torture...all of which seemed to have snowballed after they apparently called upon Lolth to destroy Miyeritar. I'm unclear as to when Araunshee and the other dark gods were cast out by the Seldarine, however this passage from page 10 of Demihuman Deities seems to suggest they'd been cast out some time before the Ilythiiri, and that there was enough time between that and the Descent of the Drow in which the Ilythiiri were further corrupted (thus leading to the DotD): Over 10,000 years ago, the Crown Wars exposed the depths to which most dark elves had fallen in the service of fell powers such as Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, and Lolth, despite the mitigating efforts of the good-hearted Eilistraee. As a result, by means never discussed by the Fair Folk, the dark elves were forever banished to the deep tunnels beneath Faerun by the Seldarine and the allied elven nations and thereafter named drow (originally dhaeraow, an elvish term meaning face of shadow, heart of night, traitor), circa-10,000 DR. And this, from the Cormanthyr sourcebook, is even more illuminating: c -10,450 The Fourth Crown War: Ilythiir's seething counter-attack to avenge Miyeritar sees their open use of the corrupt powers of Ghaunadar and other dark, evil gods for the first time. Birds of a feather flock together. Like attracts like. The drow already had certain predispositions towards violence, but while they had a right to defend against the expansionistic Vyshaan rulers of Aryvandaar they did so in an un-elven fashion. A goodly number of the Ilythiiri may have worshipped Corellon, Erevan, and other Seldarine, but the fate of the Ilythiiri/drow had been placed in the hands of Araushnee/Lolth long ago (p. 10 of DD) but it can be assumed that when representatives of the Seldarine (i.e., the clerics and churches) wouldn't support their deeds and aims the dark elves placed greater faith in those powers which promised--and delivered--power to be used against the enemies of Ilythiir. In a sense, this shift could be seen as dovetailing into a proxy war by the members of the anti-Seldarine (Lolth, Ghaunadaur, etc.). Denied the chance of having elvenkind (and the Seldarine's power) all to themselves when they failed, Lolth chose to help turn the whole of elvenkind against itself and in the process break off an even bigger piece for herself. It may have been that Ghaunadaur had a greater grip early on, but Lolth wound up gaining a stronger following in the end. (She was once a lesser/minor deity among the Seldarine, so this definitely had an impact upon her own fortunes.) Essentially the Ilythiiri were (increasingly) evil elves who resorted to horrific acts to accomplish their goals, to take and to slay. That they by and large turned to evil gods by the time of the Dark Disaster was not the primary factor in them being banished and named 'drow', merely more evidence of their wickedness (just another log on the fire, so to speak). The last straw seems to have been not only their unchecked aggression but their scorched-earth tactics against the other elven homeland (which when taken together amounted to a genocidal campaign against the non-Ilythiiri elves). Many of the most powerful elven wizards and clerics strove together to get divine intercession on their behalf against these 'dark elves'. Corellon (presumably with the backing of the rest of the Seldarine) acceeded, sending (High) magic through those wizards and clerics to transform all the Ilythiiri into drow, resulting in their banishment. It took the act of many elves, acting in concert to gain deliverance from their brethren, before Corellon took that step. Such was not the case with the Vyshaan rulers of Aryvandaar. Why? First, the elves as a whole did not demand divine intercession as they had in the case of the Ilythiiri. Second, what they did took a lot of power, even with the help of Corellon. Third, it was but a month after the Descent of the Drow that the Seldarine magically summoned representatives of the remaining elven homelands in order to settle differences and restore peace among themselves. They discussed the issues and decided that enough was enough, the Vyshaan(ti) were a remaining threat to their collective peace and needed to be rooted out. Neither Aryvandaar nor sun elves in general were 'evil', rather their leaders at the top. Another 'DotD' type scenario would've been overkill. This was something that the elves could handle themselves, now that the Ilythiiri threat was largely reduced/removed. However, the Vyshaanti did fear suffering the same fate as the Drow and in -9900 began engaging in a covert campaign of assassination of clerics and high mages, such that the nobility and high mages of Illefarn (which was annexed by Aryvandaar) was exterminated (p. 31 of Cormanthyr). Whether or not another banishment on the scale of the DotD was planned for the Vyshaanti is questionable, so the assassination campaign may or may not have had an impact. In any case their fate was sealed by the First Proclamation of the Elven Court in -9200, which began the Fifth Crown War and ended with the defeat of the Vyshaan and the disintegration of Aryvandaar some 200 years later. This is one answer, based upon official sources.
ArthurQ 06-22-03, 05:17 AM	My major curiosity is this. Eilistraee willingly took upon her the curse of the drow because she felt responsible for either helping Lloth or acting against her father Correllon. Correllon originally wasnt planning to curse Eilistraee...so whatever she did wasnt intentional. What I'm wondering is what Eilistraee actually did, aside from be a victim in the case of Myrirtar
Zanan 06-22-03, 06:46 AM	Of course, the point is: by what right did Corellon had the power to banish the dark elves from the surface? The answer is simple. He had not. But - yes, this spoils the whole story - the Wizards needed a cunning, intelligent yet dangerously beautiful race of evil doers and made them nigh invincible to have them around for ages upon ages. Hence, the dark elves / Drow appeared. And despite all the strange things which led to the Descent, the FR story of it is by far the best and "most logical" around. As I said, using fire and the like against people who live and die by woods and trees is a simple and effective war stategy. To my knowledge, the Ilythiiri were not in pursuit of a genocide against the Elves, they wanted domination. Whether it was Corellon's direct intervention or a mega-spell cast by the High Magi and the like, it had all the proportions of the Karsus' Avatar spell. As in: way too much power wielded by anyone, whether a single mad mage or a bunch of High Magi. Such things should not happen in a fantasy world. IMHO
Prince Indirian 06-22-03, 07:31 AM	Originally posted by Selvarin Oh really. :rolleyes: The dark elves largely abandoned the Seldarine's ethos by that time, choosing power over peace, and they chose unorthodox means of warfare against their brethren. The sun elves had their faults but it was more due to the control of a certain political faction/ruling family, and apparently Corellon deemed that it didn't yet require such an extreme measure to set right. In fact, the rest of the surface elves came to the conclusion that the Vyshaan rulers were the problem and they, backed by Corellon's mandate, were able to rectify the matter (albeit it took many years, by our standards, to come to a conclusion and to a means of dismantling their power structure). There is a difference between dealing with the discovery of a cancer (the Vyshaan) and what esentially amounts to gangrene (the Ilythiiri/drow). Cut off the rot and save the body, or let the rot continue and risk losing the rest? Well obviously you don't seem to understand what I mean and that's probably my fault, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I said it was unfair but without doubt necessary. If if had been the other way maybe Lloth would been the one with power, and that would certainly not be good for the realms. You said that it was the Vyshaan clan who was the root of evil among the Sun elves couldn't it have been the same among the dark elves. That they were ruled by the Clerics of Lloth, as it is now. That would certainly explain why the the rule the darkl elves today as the dark elf society is very conservative. As a matter of fact the elven race is a very conservative race. at least it seems so. But I know that there are changes and that there will be changes as long as Amlaruil rules the elves, Which is very good as changes keep the realms alive. [QUOTE] The dark elves to the south may have been enraged at the attack upon their northern 'brethren' but it was more of a pretext than anything else. The dark elves of Miyeritar were said to have worshipped Eilistraee (see Eilistraee's entry in Demihuman Deities ), would Araushnee really have cared? The Ilythiiri may have initially acted out of rage at the injustice done to Miyeritar, but really, attacking their neighbors when they had little or nothing to do with what happened to Miyeritar? It would be like the States attacking Canada because China invaded Guam, there's no legitimate causal effect. Well their neighbours(<-english) stood there in a most passive way lookind at the destruction of Miyertar and trading with Aryvandarr. The gold elves started the war, they were the only who attacked, although it was rumored that the dark elves were assasinating leaders don't know where I heard this but that there is a rule that no elf shall attack another elf without proper justification or without provocation. Either way no elf shall attack another elf. Maybe this rule came after the crown wars to prevent future Crown Wars. But if it didn't the Sun elves commited a greater sin than that of the dark elves burning down the forests. The fact that nobody seemed to help or aid the elves of Miyertar (although keltormir hid some refugees) gave them the justification to do what they did. But I think both you I and I agree to that fact they went to damn far thus the reason they were banished and that was the best for elves. [QUOTE] I'm curious about this, since I haven't found it in the Cormanthyr supplement. What I did find was this: The same can be found written up in Demihuman Deities. And although the reference to dark elves in Miyeritar was omitted/expunged in Races of Faerun (presumably to make the actions of the Ilythiiri more logical, since now it's official that they called upon Araushnee/Lolth to destroy that realm), it can be said that green elves, not moon elves, existed or co-existed in Miyeritar. Well my dear,read this and you'll probably understand why I "said" what I said or Orishaar and Ilythiir, the moon and dark elf domains in the woods south of the Lake of Steam (in the forests that once covered the Shaar). I drew the conclusion that Ilythiir and Orishaar was ruled by both moon and dark elves. And if you wanit to mow more about the Sehanine Moonbow thing look at page 53 beliefs of the realm [QUOTE] Zan makes a good point. However, the Ilythiiri were the 'Scorpion clan' of the elves at that time and from what I recall of elven mores some things aren't permitted. The elves tend to live more by the spirit than by the letter in this regard. It's a family thing, and if you treat the other family members as if they weren't then you will not remain a party of the family for long. I have no problem with saying that the Vyshaan rulers of Aryvandaar were despots and expansionists. At the same time I have a problem with this moral relativism creeping in. There's something in the way the pre-Drow (Ilythiiri) handled things that were very un-elven as a whole, and as I've pointed out previously which do you try to deal with first, a rotting limb or a growing cancer? Both can be lethal but gangrene will get you first. And it's the prerogative of Corellon (and the Seldarine) to decide when and where to handle things in a more direct fashion. Remember, the Crown Wars were a horrific time for elves but even as the elves had to handle their own matters the elven gods had to consider how much of their own workings would bring on something worse. As I said it was war but in war there should be some rules. For example, the rare times I fight with somebody( I tend to avoid fights as much as possible but sometimes its not possible) I don't kick on them if they have fallen and I don't kick them groin as that's to damn evil to do. As you see I don't fight girls ( a gentleman). And it's seems as the dark elves disregarded all these rules and on top of that worshipped Lloth and her friends:evil smirk:. But one the others side it was war in war there are not always options and I'm not justifying the evil deeds by dark elves. They did what probably Lloth or they themselves thought was necessary. Just so you lnow I feel that it was good that you corrected me at certain parts bu i do not agree to everything you said. I'm just being honest [QUOTE] *shakes head at having to bring this all up* You know what? This is why I prefer the Races of Faerun version these days. It's concistent, it fits better and it gives a wonderfully valid reason as to why the Ilythiiri were banished--by calling upon Araushnee/Lolth to destroy Miyeritar. If good-aligned drow worshippers were in numbers there along with the green elves then it was like killing three birds with one stone--1) reducing Eilistraee's power in the Realms (which it would/did), 2) by checking the power of the Vyshaan rulers, and 3) by showing that the Ilythiiri had the means to make their power felt far. And of course it gives a nice pretext for the ilythiiri to attack their neighbors, by blaming it on the Vyshaan and doing ***-for-tat in response. There's your answer in a nutshell as to why the Ilythiiri were worse than the sun elves and deserved being cast out. Now if they'll only re-include the reference to dark elves living alongside the green elves in Miyeritar...*hmm*... QUOTE]Originally posted by Selvarin :embarrass :embarrass :rolleyes: :cool: :embarrass Selvarin I actúally don't have Races of Faerun so I'am stricly 2e. And also Selavarin do you have some grudge against me ? Sometimes I'am rather paranoid but if you have then lets solve it. Do you remember who I am from my earlier posts? I'am actually a elf lover but I love all elves from sun to dark so you don't think I'am triyng ti defend the dark elves to much. And you only critizised me even though there are more that said kind of the same as I did
Prince Indirian 06-22-03, 07:33 AM	Actually I've mixed everything together in my last post
Zanan 06-22-03, 08:36 AM	Just as a sidenote ... Rich Baker already "admitted" that the Elven history in RoF was filled with errors, or rather, omitions which should not have been there. As it reads now the Dark Disaster which befell Miyeritar was due to dark elven magic, which was and still is not true. It also forgets to mention that the named Realm was one which was settled and governed by both, dark elves (mainly worshipping Eilistraee, by the way) and green elves, not green elves alone.
Kuje31 06-22-03, 01:15 PM	Originally posted by ArthurQ My major curiosity is this. Eilistraee willingly took upon her the curse of the drow because she felt responsible for either helping Lloth or acting against her father Correllon. Correllon originally wasnt planning to curse Eilistraee...so whatever she did wasnt intentional. What I'm wondering is what Eilistraee actually did, aside from be a victim in the case of Myrirtar Lloth tricked her into shooting Corellon and he almost died from her arrow. Because of this she left Arvandor and made her realm in Ysgard (in 3e, this would be the Abyss, and no that makes no sense but hey what do I know). She's still allowed to return to Arvandor every so often but she can't permanently live there. This can all be found in the novel Evermeet.
ArthurQ 06-22-03, 02:17 PM	thanks
Selvarin 06-22-03, 02:38 PM	Originally posted by Zanan Of course, the point is: by what right did Corellon had the power to banish the dark elves from the surface? The answer is simple. He had not. But - yes, this spoils the whole story - the Wizards needed a cunning, intelligent yet dangerously beautiful race of evil doers and made them nigh invincible to have them around for ages upon ages. Hence, the dark elves / Drow appeared. And despite all the strange things which led to the Descent, the FR story of it is by far the best and "most logical" around. As I said, using fire and the like against people who live and die by woods and trees is a simple and effective war stategy. To my knowledge, the Ilythiiri were not in pursuit of a genocide against the Elves, they wanted domination. Whether it was Corellon's direct intervention or a mega-spell cast by the High Magi and the like, it had all the proportions of the Karsus' Avatar spell. As in: way too much power wielded by anyone, whether a single mad mage or a bunch of High Magi. Such things should not happen in a fantasy world. IMHO And that is why they destroyed so many elven nations in the process of this 'domination'? That's effective, when everyone who could be dominated after having their nation overwhelmed is either dead or enslaved (more the former). Again, it comes down to accepted rules of conduct during war. Elves in general don't seem to be into irreparably ruining another elven nation in the process of such a conflict, whereas the Ilythiiri were. How can there be any recovery when there are either no survivors nor woodlands left for them to come home to? The only survivors I've read about are the ones who managed to flee to other elven nations (such as escaping into Keltormir). Of course, to a drow what does any of this matter? Which is the point.
Selvarin 06-22-03, 02:47 PM	Originally posted by ArthurQ My major curiosity is this. Eilistraee willingly took upon her the curse of the drow because she felt responsible for either helping Lloth or acting against her father Correllon. Correllon originally wasnt planning to curse Eilistraee...so whatever she did wasnt intentional. What I'm wondering is what Eilistraee actually did, aside from be a victim in the case of Myrirtar Interesting point. I doubt Lolth considered her following to be a threat at the time. It was more or less a bonus to wipe out a major pocket of Eilistraee's people in the process. The following is said in DD regarding Eilistraee: Although her arrow went astray because of Araushnee's treachery, Eilistraee chose banishment from Arvandor (and the Seldarine) along with her mother and brother, foreseeing a time when she would be needed to balance their evil. Perhaps she did know. at least, that's how it was written. .
Zanan 06-22-03, 02:50 PM	Selvarin, maybe I missed something, but the only barren wastelands which were left behind during the wastelands were those caused by the Dark Disaster (not of dark elven making). They used fire and destroyed woodlands galore, fair enough. But not whole nations or territories were ruined. Even if, dark elves as well as elves do live quite long and within 30 to 50 years a forrest would have been there again (maybe not 150 feet high ... and tree city suitable). Obviously, people fled the onslaught and the prospect of enslavement. Of course, and I don't know whether this has happened or would have gone through ... if a nation or kingdom would have submitted to the dark elves (as others did to Aryvandaar), they might not and possible were not enslaved or destroyed. Anyway, IMHO there is no justification for the Descent other than black & white morals and the need for a good evil race. With regard to the Dark Disaster he said that it was a shortening of what is written in Cormanthor & DD. I don't have the link right here, but you'll find it in the old board -> FR General -> "errors, omitions and ..." somewhere between page 1 and 10 ;)
Selvarin 06-22-03, 02:50 PM	Originally posted by Zanan Just as a sidenote ... Rich Baker already "admitted" that the Elven history in RoF was filled with errors, or rather, omitions which should not have been there. As it reads now the Dark Disaster which befell Miyeritar was due to dark elven magic, which was and still is not true. It also forgets to mention that the named Realm was one which was settled and governed by both, dark elves (mainly worshipping Eilistraee, by the way) and green elves, not green elves alone. Did he specifically mention there being an error about the Dark Disaster or merely the omission of dark elves being living alongside the green with regard to RoF? That would be a big deal in the former instance. I'll tell you what, Zan, I'll take the time to look through what's been written in Cormanthyr and write down what happened to each target of the Ilythiiri. The general impression so far has been that they used fire, etc. to defeat and destroy their enemies. I could have missed an instance where they left another elven nation intact as a vassal state, but the general impression so far is that they did not. One need not enact a Dark Disaster every time in order for another nation to be wiped from the surface of Faerun. And one other point, Zan--To the best of my knowledge, at this exact moment, there was no definitive fingering of any group as to being responsible for the Dark Disaster until Races of Faerun came out. There were some suspicions that the Vyshaanti may have been responsible but nothing definitive came out of it: While no proof could ever be found, many believe the High Mages of Aryvandaar inflicted the Dark Disaster on Miyeritar.
Zanan 06-22-03, 02:58 PM	Spare yourself the trouble Selvarin, I've got Cormanthor. RoF's history was shortened too much so that it now appears that the Drow did the Dark Disaster. Cormanthor's history still holds true.
Selvarin 06-22-03, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by Prince Indirian :embarrass :embarrass :rolleyes: :cool: :embarrass Selvarin I actúally don't have Races of Faerun so I'am stricly 2e. And also Selavarin do you have some grudge against me ? Sometimes I'am rather paranoid but if you have then lets solve it. Do you remember who I am from my earlier posts? I'am actually a elf lover but I love all elves from sun to dark so you don't think I'am triyng ti defend the dark elves to much. And you only critizised me even though there are more that said kind of the same as I did Fair enough, you don't have RoF (and depending on whom you listen to, it's either canon or not). And no, there's no grudge involved. If I read something that doesn't sound quite right then I'll look it up--and I'll make mention of it here. Too often what's stated as fact here turns out to be misremembered or somesuch, so I have to look it up (even I've made mistakes, so I'm not placing myself 'above it all'). And to be honest I rarely look at the names of the message board posters. What matters more is what someone's said. So if you and I have debated something in the past then it's solely regarding the topic at hand. There's some people with whom I undoubtably create friction with due to personality issues (or strength of conviction over certain subjects) but so be it. In general, if someone can say "My opinion is X because of source A, B, and C" then I may still disagree but it's okay. Besides, if it's really solid I'll eventually go along with it (anyone remember the brujaha over the idea of drow bladesingers? ;) ). I do have sharp opinions, but unlike drow I won't stab you with mine--and certainly not with sadistic glee. For what it's worth, I'm an elf lover as well. I tend to play them more than any other race, despite my interest in drow. I hope that the various 'histories' continue to evolve and remain pertinent.
Prince Indirian 06-22-03, 05:42 PM	Well I think that we all agree that the dark elves weren't the cause of the destruction of Miyertar. By now i know that Rof says the opposite because that makes more sense to why the dark elves were banished. It says that the dark elves summoned Lloth to destroy Miyertar but i think that it doesn't make sense. Why? Well whenever or most times a deity has come to aid there followers in war, another deity has come to do the same or at least counter the firts deitys action(s). In particular the mulhorand pantheon against the Orc. But theSeldarine didn't do a squat to prevent the destruction of Miyertar. Actually I shouldn't draw this conclusion as I have not read the entry. It is here that the Cormanthyr version helps out a bit. At the end of page 29 in the Cormanthyr they say this "Miyertar becomes the center of elven Art and High Magic on Faerun. And they also say that it was either the High mage sympatizers in Miyertar or the High mage concubines of Vyshaan clan who unleashed the Dark disaster. As a lot of Miyertar inhabitants died in the Dark Disaster it decreases the chanses the sympatizers did it. But the resistance made by the Miyertar maybe "bored" the the Vyshaans so much that thay wanted to try something else. The something else is the Dark Disaster. If you read the about the Dark Disaseter it says that 3 high Mages and 90 dark elf mages try to counter the effects of the Dark Distater but fails. Why would they (the Miyertar) summon something just to have unsummon it later? But it may have been the Miyertar because they didn't wan't the Vyshaan clan to conquer or benefit from their homeland, as a last revenge. Or the Vyshaan may have done they same thinking that if "we don't get it nowbody will. If you read at page 31 you'll se that it seems to be dark elven equvilant of the Vyshaan clan named Hune. And if they are then the banishment of the dark elves are truly unfair And Selvarin I'am the one who asked why the good dark elves shouldn't have High mages. If you count in the RoF then it really doesn't make sense since the elistraee dark elves weren't the reason to the dark disaster :cool:
Selvarin 06-22-03, 07:49 PM	Originally posted by Prince Indirian Well I think that we all agree that the dark elves weren't the cause of the destruction of Miyertar. By now i know that Rof says the opposite because that makes more sense to why the dark elves were banished. It says that the dark elves summoned Lloth to destroy Miyertar but i think that it doesn't make sense. Why? Well whenever or most times a deity has come to aid there followers in war, another deity has come to do the same or at least counter the firts deitys action(s). In particular the mulhorand pantheon against the Orc. But theSeldarine didn't do a squat to prevent the destruction of Miyertar. Actually I shouldn't draw this conclusion as I have not read the entry. No they don't. It isn't a given. What RoF says is that they called upon Lolth and used her terrible might to destroy Miyeritar (p. 27). It didn't say that they summoned her. As for the Seldarine doing squat, sometimes even the gods can only do something after the fact. Otherwise everything would be a stalemate. (You could do the same by asking why Lolth and the other anti-Seldarine didn't stop the dark elves from being cursed/banished.) For the most part the gods work through their followers. Of course, the part on elven history in RoF is said to have been shortened and, presumably, certain bits were altered or omitted. I could work with it either way at this point, since the Dark Disaster wasn't the catalyst for the decision to banish the ilythiiri. It is here that the Cormanthyr version helps out a bit. At the end of page 29 in the Cormanthyr they say this "Miyertar becomes the center of elven Art and High Magic on Faerun. And they also say that it was either the High mage sympatizers in Miyertar or the High mage concubines of Vyshaan clan who unleashed the Dark disaster. As a lot of Miyertar inhabitants died in the Dark Disaster it decreases the chanses the sympatizers did it. But the resistance made by the Miyertar maybe "bored" the the Vyshaans so much that thay wanted to try something else. The something else is the Dark Disaster. If you read the about the Dark Disaseter it says that 3 high Mages and 90 dark elf mages try to counter the effects of the Dark Distater but fails. Why would they (the Miyertar) summon something just to have unsummon it later? But it may have been the Miyertar because they didn't wan't the Vyshaan clan to conquer or benefit from their homeland, as a last revenge. Or the Vyshaan may have done they same thinking that if "we don't get it nowbody will. If you read at page 31 you'll se that it seems to be dark elven equvilant of the Vyshaan clan named Hune. And if they are then the banishment of the dark elves are truly unfair It's a good point and if the folks at WotC didn't mean to rewrite the whole matter (which I'm not completely opposed to) then they'll rectify it so that there's more consistency. Yes it was a center for learning and High Magic. Did it occur to you that the dark elves living there with that knowledge died in the onslaught of the Dark Disaster, including the aforementioned attempt to cause it to cease? But it's interesting to note that it mentioned three High Mages and 90 dark elven mages, which suggests to me that the three High Mages were more likely than not green elves (after all, green elves lived there as well and it may well be that the green, moon, and sun elves have been the only ones to have perfected it). Either way there's a good reason for why there are no drow high mages. As for the Hune clan, the reference is to the dark elven hune clan of Ilythiir who threaten the elves of Keltormir on one front while the Vyshaantar threaten them on the other. What of it? When Keltormir withdrew it left the forces of Aryvaandar and Ilythiir to fight each other. And Selvarin I'am the one who asked why the good dark elves shouldn't have High mages. If you count in the RoF then it really doesn't make sense since the elistraee dark elves weren't the reason to the dark disaster :cool: Lordy, that definitely isn't one I care to debate. There's a reason why things stand as they are currently with regard to the High Mage prc. There's one thing I should address, the idea of Eilistraee, her followers, and the banishing of the drow. Eilistraee had pockets of worship here and there, but her main following was within Miyeritar. It's a valid question as to why they were 'cursed', as it were, in the same manner as their evil kin. Perhaps Eilistraee chose not to intercede on their behalf, feeling (for whatever reason) that they had to be in the same boat so as to...well, who knows. That's a hard one to justify and isn't very logical. A more logical explanation relates to the destruction of Miyeritar, that her following was cut down so drastically that the only way to maintain some toehold was for her remaining followers to to recruit from those who'd been cursed with banishment. So initially they may not have suffered from sensitivity to sunlight (nor had they special innate powers as drow do today), but the converts did and so by the next generation of 'new blood' (and with the death of the old) those good and neutrally-aligned drow followers of Eilistraee were by then the same as other drow elves in terms of capabilities and vulnerabilities. intermingling of the pre DotD dark elves and the drow would've resulted in drow children who would carry the 'sins of the parent', as it were. This, to me, is pretty sensible. *Refering first to Zanan's post concerning Baker and RoF*~~If Baker said that the elven history section in RoF was shortened, that's one thing. If it's errat'd and they say the Vyshaantar were responsible for the Dark Disaster (as initially suspected) then it changes things somewhat regarding the Fourth Crown War (and we can all enjoy relative 2e/3e FR consistency, yay!). But as the timeline shows by that time the Ilythiiri had already turned to Ghaunadaur and other evil deities, and unorthodox methods of warfare. As one goes at the timeline their methods and acts get progressively worse, whether they had initial justification or not. I know you're not arguing that the Ilythiiri/drow weren't evil, however, so it's silly of me to keep pressing on that particular subject.
Zanan 06-23-03, 03:36 AM	Selvarin, once again ... there are no unorthodox ways of warfare. The Elves had their variety of going to war, as in: shooting arrrows from the trees etc., something the Ilythiiri did not match. Thus, they turned to robbing the elves of this advantage. Nothing unorthodox in burning trees, for it would be unorthodox to burn any village or house then. Maybe it was unorthodox be Elven standards, but hey, what should the Ilythiiri have done? On the other hand, while they speak of vile and evil magics and rituals used, they don't give that much a hint of what they actually did. The history was written by those who wanted the Ilythiiri *** Drow to be mean and evil, thus they used (from their perspective) "evil magic". There's need for some moral justification of the Descent and without giving much detail, the Wizards just said that the dark elves used evil magic and very a bit nastier than their fair kin.
kiwidoc 06-23-03, 10:43 AM	This is fascinating :) Let me throw a few more points in here. Some people think the dark elves committed war crimes that were a great deal worse than anything any other elven race has done in wartime and in peacetime. This would have to be much, much worse than the mass slaughter of tens of thousands caused by the Sundering - if you believe it did happen then it was an appalling act indeed. I don't think we could get into the nature of such crimes on the open board - it seems to me they would have to be so horrific they would belong on the Mature Boards. Some people think that it was the fact that the dark elves turned their back on the Seldarine. However it wasn't so much that they chose a different group of deities (I suppose rarely some elves do follow gods from other pantheons). It may not have been that they were following evil deities. What was probably most significant was that they followed a group of deities who were part of the Seldarine, and rebelled against it - firstly in an attempt to take it over and when this failed they attempted to destroy it. Some posters definitely think both of these issues played a role. There is also two fundamentally different ways of looking at drow. The first is seeing them as a creation by a group of people in order to be used in a game, a totally artificial construct. The second way is seeing them as inhabitants of an alternate reality, and what is written about them is glimpses into this alternative universe - the drow are "real". Some of the problems with this type of debate is when these two ways of understanding the drow clash, resulting in totally crossed communication. I don't think there is any "correct" answer - partly because of this philosophical difference in approach.
Selvarin 06-23-03, 08:04 PM	For the purpose of future response to this thread I’m going to stick to the following: A) For the time being, races of faerun (and the line regarding the drow calling upon Lolth’s might to destroy Miyeritar) will not be considered until it’s properly errated. B) Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and Demihuman Deities will be the basis for future statements if at all possible, since they’re both consistent and provide considerable detail regarding the elves as well as the Descent of the Drow. There are some interesting tidbits in other books, such as Drow of the Underdark, but most are earlier works and may provide dates If any) that were since readjusted. C) The corporate/design behind-the-scenes why-for’s don’t matter for the purpose of this thread. We’re trying to deal with how to make sense of the elven/drow history (in FR) as it’s written. It’s like talking about Star Wars plotlines and being told “Well George Lucas wanted to appeal to the younger crowd and…”…In this case it isn’t helpful at all. We could sit here and discuss whether halflings were included in the Forgotten Realms just to appease Hobbit feet fetishists and it won’t be useful in the least. With that being said, let me go through a few questions and, where necessary, back up any answers I provide with a source (if no source is given, assume it’s from the Cormanthyr book): 1)Did the Ilythiiri turn to evil after the Dark Disaster or were they already evil by then? I’d say that they’d already turned to evil by-and-large before then. The Dark Disaster (presumably instigated by the Vyshaan in response to rebellious movements there) occurred at –10, 500 c. And it’s said that at –10,450 c. (the start of the Fourth Crown War) the Ilythiiri engage in a seething counter-attack in response, making ‘open use’ of the corrupt powers of Ghaunadaur and other dark gods. ‘Open use’ is the operative term. We know that as early as –11,200 they use enslaved monsters and undead (!) to take down the realm of Thearnytaar. I don’t know of many elves who make use of undead except as a defensive measure (such as reverend spirits, etc.). It’s also mentioned that in 11, 450 the following occurs: The Sable Wars: Thearnytaar and Eiellur, with minimal allies from Keltormir and Shantel Othreier, invade Ilythiir, intent on destroying or reforming the dark elves before more realms fall. More than half their forces are decimated by the corrupt magics of the dark elves. And does anyone suppose what those ‘corrupt magics’ happened to be? 2) Did the Ilythiiri engage in acts of war that went beyond the accepted norms of the elves? The answer is ‘yes’. From reading the timeline in Cormanthyr, you will find the following: They used fire to destroy Syorpiir in –11,600; They use fire to destroy the realm of Eiellur in –11,400; They use enslaved monsters and undead to bring Thearnytaar down; And, of course, after the Dark Disaster they make open use of the corrupt powers of Ghaunadaur and others (including Lolth). In contrast, the expansionistic Vyshaantar empire in several places are noted as trying to annex various elven realms peaceably before resorting to war, and nowhere is it mentioned that they engaged in the same acts as the Ilythiiri in the course of their campaigns. They do some despicable things—for example, the mysterious death of Coronal Ynloeth and the Dark Disaster (something which was suspected and has yet to be verified)—but their acts in general involved less sinister actions. Remember, the Vyshaantar empire was interested in expansion, not wholesale destruction. Tell me, where are the woods where the Ilythiiri’s former foes/victims used to be? The Shaar is largely devoid of forest these days. They’re also largely devoid of elves except in a few places that far south. 3) Who did the elves as a whole fear more, the Vyshaan/Vyshantaar or the Ilythiiri? They feared the Ilythiiri more because of their vicious tactics and the end results of such attacks. (See 2) above.) . That is why Thearnytaar and Eillur took the risky move of trying to invade Ilythiir in –11,450, and why in –10,110 over a thousand priests and High Mages got together to engage in fervent prayer for salvation by Corellon Larethian and the rest of the Seldarine. The Ilythiiri were a more immediate and direct threat to the remaining free elven homelands. 4) Why were the Ilythiiri declared drow and banished from the surface? Because the remaining free elves needed salvation and deliverance from them (see 3) above). The priests and High Mages’ prayers were finally answered, and Corellon sent magic through them and outward, transforming the dark elves (corrupt as well as not) into drow. This is still official, apparently. 5) Why weren’t the Vyshaan turned into drow? Isn’t it unfair? The other elves didn’t demand deliverance from the expansionistic Vyshaan rulers, despite the wars of empire that ensued because of them. They were deserving of being declared drow because of the Dark Disaster (if it proves true), but their not suffering the same fate as the Ilythiiri isn’t necessarily unfair because they were dealt with as well. (It’s no coincidence that elves were summoned to Elven Court a month after the DotD to deal with other issues relating to restoring the peace.) The Vyshaan who ruled Aryvandaar did fear it, though, as stated in a previous post. No, it would take another 800 years before the First Proclamation of the Elven Court would seal their fate and start the Fifth (and final) Crown War. In my opinion they could’ve decided it sooner, but such are the ways of elves. shrug* Had the other elves known for sure that the Vyshaan were responsible for the Dark Disaster (something which is still in debate) then it’s likely that their regime would’ve been targeted sooner and they may have shared the same fate (or been magically walled up/banished as they later did with the Dlardrageths). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *reads posts left since the last time and responds* Zanan, I'll continue to respectfully disagree. The fact that drow tactics are specifically cited tells me that they were beyond the norm for elven warfare. Shouldn't that be a clue? And while I'm trying to treat this fictional material as if it were 'real' I don't subscribe to it always being the 'victor writes the history'. It's too cynical. the alternative is to treat the drow as 'poor misunderstood souls'...I can just imagine the quotes from a drow history book: "We tried making up with our neighbors in Eiellur. We started a campfire with the high mucky-mucks to roast some 'dragonmellows' and Great Ghaunadaur the darn thing went out of control! Fire everywhere, racing through the realm, elves running around screaming 'Help me I'm burning!' but we didn't have any water on us so we just summoned some demons to stomp the flames offa them. But they didn't get up afterward---and all the other elves in the neighboring states were so peeved at us. Imagine that, the nerve of them!"...OK, they would've written it in a more scholarly fashion but that's the gist of my opinion on it so far. :D I just don't care for moral relativism, etc., when it comes to this. Sometimes there actually is an Evil, a Good, especially in a fantasy world. The Ilythiiri weren't necessarily evil at the start but as sure as the Abyss they went down that road. We could play like the drow were tragically misunderstood and I still wouldn't want my character to be in the same room with one (unless, of course, I could take him/her down in less than 3 rounds). This does bleed into other topics of contention. The idea of good/neutral drow, for example. I prefer to play in the FR campaign setting but I can easily imagine another setting with an alternative set of circumstances would result in something closer to what you seem to be sympathetic to. That's why this is a more interesting topic than others, as much as I follow along with the current view (because it works) I do see that other possibility. I just don't agree with turning villians into "oh they're not that bad" types. One could always be wrong, of course, at least when it comes to real world history. However, I'm not going to dispute a book on the history of the Khmer Rouge merely because someone other than (the late)Pol Pot wrote it. (If Pol Pot did, however, I suppose he'd tell us how pretty poppies are when they bloom and remark on how the 'killing fields' were made up by western journalists.)
ElGrecoETAC 06-24-03, 12:52 AM	Irregardless of the morality of introducing radical means of warfighting, I never imagined the Illythiri as being much different from Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans, from the "Elric" books. Warlike and decadent I think are two words you see in use throughout the last 2 editions in describing their culture. The Vyshaan were no better, but Corellon likely thought of them as an American President once did about similar fellows: "They maybe jerks, but they're OUR jerks".
Selvarin 06-24-03, 02:36 PM	I also recognize that on a deific level Corellon would have to be aware that the Ilythiiri were being backed (covertly or overtly, depending on the timeframe) by Ghaunadaur and Lolth, and with the fate of the elven homelands becoming even more precarious something would have to be done. That the elves were seeking his (and the rest of the Seldarine's) intervention against them would merely have been the deciding factor that the time was right. Regardless, the Vyshaan took steps to hunt down priests and High Mages so as to prevent a call for them to be banished for their own actions so the power of elven magic when collected among a large group of spellcasters has to matter just as much. *just some additional afterthoughts*
Zanan 06-25-03, 09:40 AM	Vendui! Just a short remark: I do perceive history as written in the sourcebooks as being FR reality. Still, it goes hand in hand with the game's background where the Drow were first created as an evil race and got their history later on. Thus, those two realities are linked and the whole background should not be forgotten. Back to the rest and the reality a wee bit later. ;)
Selvarin 06-25-03, 10:42 PM	Hi Zan. :) I'd say that is accurate in that they came onto the scene as ready-made evil and since then we've benefited from designers' efforts to explain how that is (just as there were ready-made good ones for the same reason). It doesn't give me a satisfactory in-game answer though. I'll keep it it in mind, regardless. Oh, I forgot to include Drow of the Underdark , which speaks about drow history in general terms for a specific reason: The history of the drow in the Realms is long and grand, but very murky to the sage or interested inquirer of today. Truth has been willfully twisted by clever and fanatical drow to serve many partisan noble House interests and the major drow faiths. It is usual in Lolth-dominated communities, for example, to pretend that traitors to the Goddess, or vanquished noble Houses, simply 'never existed.' Although this is a hollow deceit at the time, it effectively 'rewrites history' by four generations later. The history of the drow can thus only be recounted in general terms following the work of Shahaerynus, a drow sage who dwelt in long-ago Myth Drannor, and compiled The High History of the Drow. What you are about to read are excerpts from this book. What I find interesting is the version of the Descent as described therein (although this was years before the other two primary sources came into being so it followed a slightly different path): We know very little of the Ilythiiri, or 'Elves of the South,' before, this crucial event. Even then, they were known as 'Dark Elves,' for the hue of their skins. They dwelt in the jungles and hot forests of the South. A proud, warlike, culturally advanced (some sages of other elven peoples say 'decadent') folk, the Ilythiiri attacked all neighbors, including other elven tribes. Their cruel raids and depredations, ordered by warlike nobility and the clergy of their two cruel deities, Ghaunadaur and Lolth, forced elves, humans, dwarves, and others to ally against them. Defeated in a series of titanic magical battles, the dark elves fled into underground warrens they had earlier discovered. This event, known as 'the Descent,' marked the end of the drow as a surface- dwelling race. This followed the more generally-accepted view of how the Drow came to be in other AD&D/D&D worlds at the time and earlier such as could be found in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide . *minor game-design/old-timer observation* It nonetheless provides some useful tidbits which further illustrate a consistent view of the Drow's predecessors. Because official FR history has the nature of their banishment ascribed to a somewhat different chain of events, that portion can be discarded (or construed as an early attempt to minimize the eventual victory of the elves by saying that other races took part). Some interpretations can only go so far. Which reminds me...If anyone likes to see an alternative view of Moonsea history, read Manshoon's account of Moonsea history in Ruins of Zhentil Keep .
Zanan 06-28-03, 08:03 AM	I am still with you, but haven't had the chance & time to respond thus far. I will over the next couple of days. ;)
Zanan 06-29-03, 04:45 PM	Before going into detail ... here is the reply of Rich Baker with regard to my (and Ian Ukal's) question about the history cahnge in RoF: Why did the history of the Crown Wars change? The short answer: It's a mistake, for which I am mostly responsible. The reason the mistake occurred is that during the development of the Races of Faerun manuscript, one of the things I had to do was cut a whole lot of Eric Boyd's words because he overwrote some of his sections, such as the elves. No bad on Eric--his writing is fine, it's well-researched, and it's generally good stuff. It just didn't fit in the space I had available. So, most "errors" of omission probably stemmed from that fact alone. As far as tagging the Ilythiiri with responsibility for the Dark Disaster, I might have done that inadvertently while working with Eric's material, or he might have got in wrong in his design draft (not very likely, it's probably my bad). You'll find it at the mentioned place of the old boards.
Selvarin 06-30-03, 07:07 PM	Originally posted by Zanan Before going into detail ... here is the reply of Rich Baker with regard to my (and Ian Ukal's) question about the history cahnge in RoF: Why did the history of the Crown Wars change? The short answer: It's a mistake, for which I am mostly responsible. The reason the mistake occurred is that during the development of the Races of Faerun manuscript, one of the things I had to do was cut a whole lot of Eric Boyd's words because he overwrote some of his sections, such as the elves. No bad on Eric--his writing is fine, it's well-researched, and it's generally good stuff. It just didn't fit in the space I had available. So, most "errors" of omission probably stemmed from that fact alone. As far as tagging the Ilythiiri with responsibility for the Dark Disaster, I might have done that inadvertently while working with Eric's material, or he might have got in wrong in his design draft (not very likely, it's probably my bad). You'll find it at the mentioned place of the old boards. Muchos thankos, Zanan! *stomps on the mistaken stuff he read in RoF* That's what I was after, a direct quote. Very helpful.
Shade_agent 07-02-03, 09:00 PM	Anyone who even hears someone consorting with Lolth should have their hair set on fire.