What exactly was the Retreat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What exactly was the Retreat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wil Harvey
11-26-04, 11:28 PM I apologize, because I realize this is probably a pretty basic question. I only got into D&D maybe 4 years ago or so, and I didn't start reading a lot of Realms material until maybe a year ago.

My understanding is that the elves went on the Retreat a while back. What was the Retreat for? What caused them to go? What caused them to return from their Retreat? Where did they go?

From what I understand, the wood elves didn't go on the Retreat. Why? Did any other elves not go? If so, why?

Basically the only stuff I've been seeing in third edition material just makes reference to the Retreat, but doesn't ever really expand upon it, presumably because most people know of it. If anyone could give me a hand with the details, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Kuje31
11-26-04, 11:33 PM It was basically the elves leaving the mainland to go to Evermeet because they were dying off or thier old lands were being overrun by humans and other races. So most of them left the mainland and traveled to Evermeet.

Many elves didn't go because they wanted to try to protect and or patrol thier old lands.
dragonheart
11-27-04, 07:00 PM as Kujie said :D to elaborate mostly the sun elves left while moon and wild elves mor typically staid behind ( of course some sun elves staid and some other s retreated - what do you expect for a CG race? :P) With a recent attack on Evermeet (details in the novel eVERMEET) The retreat has ended as even most sun elves were forced to realize there is no real retreat short of death so they are starting to return - or perhaps its better phrased that they are starting to think about returning and a very small number (mostly the youngest adults and oldest "adolescents") are actually starting to return to the mainland. Because the elves just soret of slowly fadeed away over several centuries during the retreat and are only barely starting to trickle back now most folks never really knew about the retreat and only a small number of high level folks know its over.
Lashan
11-30-04, 12:47 PM To give further detail, "the Retreat" is something of an overall concept. In other words, many different elven nations went on "the Retreat". Many of these were in many years past. The most recent case of a whole elven nation disappearing was Cormanthyr in 1355 DR. So, when someone talks about the Retreat, they might mean the overall idea of elves leaving the mainland and going to Evermeet OR they might mean the latest specific incident of the elves of Cormanthor leaving.

You asked why the elves went on retreat? It could be different things for different nations. I believe there was one on the Sword Coast that left due to orc incursions. I could be wrong, though, as the Sword Coast isn't my speciality.

Why did the elves of Cormanthyr leave? I can go into great detail of that (and have before). The decision is never a quick one. The idea goes on for centuries as elves debate the choice for many years until they feel it is the only thing to do. In this case, the idea started with the fall of Jaamdath and the Twelve Cities of Sword. The elven nation (who's name I can't recall) in the Vilhon Reach destroyed this empire due to their behaving badly. Their refugees fled north to the lands now known as Sembia and Cormyr. The elves became a bit worried about the encroachment of humans on their border who liked to chop up their woods. The humans caused meyham down south and might do so in the north. The thought of Retreat started then.

Now, through the years, the humans have acted with a variety of attitudes towards the elven nation. Surely, the woods were cut down further and the elves had to retreat further north. Sembia never did get along with the elves and a few wars were fought with them. Sembia was quite aggressive against the elves and chopped down great forests. This further brought about discussion on the elves leaving. A plan, though, came up unexpectadly that might solve the problem, though.

Some human settlers left the lands of Sembia and Cormyr and approached the Elven Court. They asked to settle in the unforested lands of Cormanthyr. They promised to live by strict rules of forest husbandry and would be allies of the Elven Court in times of need. The elves saw a chance to create a boundry between the aggressive lands of the south and themselves. If the "dalesman" could become a buffer, then the Retreat wouldn't have to happen.

Things weren't perfect, but at least worked well for many many years. Still, the elves thought about the Retreat more and more. Life was still hectic and Sembia slowly gobbled up the various Dales (look at Moondale). Most of the Elven Court was undecided on the order, though. Another inicident happened that made up their minds, though, to go through with the Retreat to Evermeet.

Lashan of Scardale was a young and amibitions lord who had dreams of forging a kingdom of the various Dales. Lashan created an army and had a plan to enforce his will on those around him, and even worshipped dark powers such as Bane to assist him. With the idea of the buffer zone disappearing and a power hungry human taking over the lands on their border, it was time to leave. It was the final straw that broke the camel's back. A few messengers were sent to a few respectful Dales that kept the old pact, but otherwise the entire elven nation disappeared.

I could go on more, but it is time for lunch and this should be suitable for one posting, at least :)
ENHenry
12-02-04, 09:32 AM Ever read the elven retreat into the West in Lord of the Rings? Same basic concept.
Faraer
12-02-04, 10:20 AM The point of it being that the elves and the dwarves represent an archaic mentality, an ancient and passing stage in the development of consciousness and civilization. While elements of the Retreat were contributed by Elaine Cunningham's novels, it was inherent in the original Realms, with the rise of humankind and the Knights of Myth Drannor inheriting in part Luvon Greencloak's guardianship of the Elven Wood.

Whereas 3E says, no, elves are all over the place, dwarves are going strong, halflings are generally adventurous so your halfling PC isn't anything out of the norm. I haven't seen the case made why any of this is a good idea (and even if it was on its own terms, that would not justify altering the conception of the Realms).
CzarGarrett
12-02-04, 10:35 AM I took it as a "Screw you guys, I'm going home," type attitude. That failed.
Lashan
12-02-04, 11:24 AM There's the metagame reason and then the in game reason.

Meta-game reasons can go back to Tolkien and other early fantasy writers. Faraer hit it on the head, too. Perhaps our world once had all these same things mentioned in legend that happened a long time ago, but where are they now? There was once more mystery in the world, and now man is marching forward with science and reason and destroying the mystery of everything. The elves and the dwarves of the world are being driven away by the ever onward march of progress. This type of mentality comes across in novels and also in many games (which have tried to emulate the feeling of many novels). [side note - when I say novels, I don't mean FR novels]

So, game designers can come to realize that this might pigeon hole a few races to a steady decline in their population in FR if certain attitudes of "good doesn't always win" and "RSE are good". Also, the 3E attitude of unfettered freedom in what you can be might put a limit to the type of races you want to play. So, the game designers have to orchestrate the reversal of the Retreat, the Thunder Blessing, and halflings aren't hobbit clones and they like to wander all over the place.
GothicDan
12-02-04, 11:37 AM Ah, how I miss those hobbit clones. The way that 3E has changed them is one of the prime reasons I left them out of my homebrew setting completely.
Lashan
12-02-04, 11:43 AM Yeah, I leave them as the hobbit clones. I like them pudgy and middle class.
Mystery Man
12-02-04, 11:46 AM <----mostly ignores them altogether one way or the other...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wil Harvey 11-26-04, 11:28 PM	I apologize, because I realize this is probably a pretty basic question. I only got into D&D maybe 4 years ago or so, and I didn't start reading a lot of Realms material until maybe a year ago. My understanding is that the elves went on the Retreat a while back. What was the Retreat for? What caused them to go? What caused them to return from their Retreat? Where did they go? From what I understand, the wood elves didn't go on the Retreat. Why? Did any other elves not go? If so, why? Basically the only stuff I've been seeing in third edition material just makes reference to the Retreat, but doesn't ever really expand upon it, presumably because most people know of it. If anyone could give me a hand with the details, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Kuje31 11-26-04, 11:33 PM	It was basically the elves leaving the mainland to go to Evermeet because they were dying off or thier old lands were being overrun by humans and other races. So most of them left the mainland and traveled to Evermeet. Many elves didn't go because they wanted to try to protect and or patrol thier old lands.
dragonheart 11-27-04, 07:00 PM	as Kujie said :D to elaborate mostly the sun elves left while moon and wild elves mor typically staid behind ( of course some sun elves staid and some other s retreated - what do you expect for a CG race? :P) With a recent attack on Evermeet (details in the novel eVERMEET) The retreat has ended as even most sun elves were forced to realize there is no real retreat short of death so they are starting to return - or perhaps its better phrased that they are starting to think about returning and a very small number (mostly the youngest adults and oldest "adolescents") are actually starting to return to the mainland. Because the elves just soret of slowly fadeed away over several centuries during the retreat and are only barely starting to trickle back now most folks never really knew about the retreat and only a small number of high level folks know its over.
Lashan 11-30-04, 12:47 PM	To give further detail, "the Retreat" is something of an overall concept. In other words, many different elven nations went on "the Retreat". Many of these were in many years past. The most recent case of a whole elven nation disappearing was Cormanthyr in 1355 DR. So, when someone talks about the Retreat, they might mean the overall idea of elves leaving the mainland and going to Evermeet OR they might mean the latest specific incident of the elves of Cormanthor leaving. You asked why the elves went on retreat? It could be different things for different nations. I believe there was one on the Sword Coast that left due to orc incursions. I could be wrong, though, as the Sword Coast isn't my speciality. Why did the elves of Cormanthyr leave? I can go into great detail of that (and have before). The decision is never a quick one. The idea goes on for centuries as elves debate the choice for many years until they feel it is the only thing to do. In this case, the idea started with the fall of Jaamdath and the Twelve Cities of Sword. The elven nation (who's name I can't recall) in the Vilhon Reach destroyed this empire due to their behaving badly. Their refugees fled north to the lands now known as Sembia and Cormyr. The elves became a bit worried about the encroachment of humans on their border who liked to chop up their woods. The humans caused meyham down south and might do so in the north. The thought of Retreat started then. Now, through the years, the humans have acted with a variety of attitudes towards the elven nation. Surely, the woods were cut down further and the elves had to retreat further north. Sembia never did get along with the elves and a few wars were fought with them. Sembia was quite aggressive against the elves and chopped down great forests. This further brought about discussion on the elves leaving. A plan, though, came up unexpectadly that might solve the problem, though. Some human settlers left the lands of Sembia and Cormyr and approached the Elven Court. They asked to settle in the unforested lands of Cormanthyr. They promised to live by strict rules of forest husbandry and would be allies of the Elven Court in times of need. The elves saw a chance to create a boundry between the aggressive lands of the south and themselves. If the "dalesman" could become a buffer, then the Retreat wouldn't have to happen. Things weren't perfect, but at least worked well for many many years. Still, the elves thought about the Retreat more and more. Life was still hectic and Sembia slowly gobbled up the various Dales (look at Moondale). Most of the Elven Court was undecided on the order, though. Another inicident happened that made up their minds, though, to go through with the Retreat to Evermeet. Lashan of Scardale was a young and amibitions lord who had dreams of forging a kingdom of the various Dales. Lashan created an army and had a plan to enforce his will on those around him, and even worshipped dark powers such as Bane to assist him. With the idea of the buffer zone disappearing and a power hungry human taking over the lands on their border, it was time to leave. It was the final straw that broke the camel's back. A few messengers were sent to a few respectful Dales that kept the old pact, but otherwise the entire elven nation disappeared. I could go on more, but it is time for lunch and this should be suitable for one posting, at least :)
ENHenry 12-02-04, 09:32 AM	Ever read the elven retreat into the West in Lord of the Rings? Same basic concept.
Faraer 12-02-04, 10:20 AM	The point of it being that the elves and the dwarves represent an archaic mentality, an ancient and passing stage in the development of consciousness and civilization. While elements of the Retreat were contributed by Elaine Cunningham's novels, it was inherent in the original Realms, with the rise of humankind and the Knights of Myth Drannor inheriting in part Luvon Greencloak's guardianship of the Elven Wood. Whereas 3E says, no, elves are all over the place, dwarves are going strong, halflings are generally adventurous so your halfling PC isn't anything out of the norm. I haven't seen the case made why any of this is a good idea (and even if it was on its own terms, that would not justify altering the conception of the Realms).
CzarGarrett 12-02-04, 10:35 AM	I took it as a "Screw you guys, I'm going home," type attitude. That failed.
Lashan 12-02-04, 11:24 AM	There's the metagame reason and then the in game reason. Meta-game reasons can go back to Tolkien and other early fantasy writers. Faraer hit it on the head, too. Perhaps our world once had all these same things mentioned in legend that happened a long time ago, but where are they now? There was once more mystery in the world, and now man is marching forward with science and reason and destroying the mystery of everything. The elves and the dwarves of the world are being driven away by the ever onward march of progress. This type of mentality comes across in novels and also in many games (which have tried to emulate the feeling of many novels). [side note - when I say novels, I don't mean FR novels] So, game designers can come to realize that this might pigeon hole a few races to a steady decline in their population in FR if certain attitudes of "good doesn't always win" and "RSE are good". Also, the 3E attitude of unfettered freedom in what you can be might put a limit to the type of races you want to play. So, the game designers have to orchestrate the reversal of the Retreat, the Thunder Blessing, and halflings aren't hobbit clones and they like to wander all over the place.
GothicDan 12-02-04, 11:37 AM	Ah, how I miss those hobbit clones. The way that 3E has changed them is one of the prime reasons I left them out of my homebrew setting completely.
Lashan 12-02-04, 11:43 AM	Yeah, I leave them as the hobbit clones. I like them pudgy and middle class.
Mystery Man 12-02-04, 11:46 AM	<----mostly ignores them altogether one way or the other...