| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| StarFyre07-12-07, 07:05 AM | It says on the back his tower is in ruins...(I got mine since want to use it with all 3 books sometime in the future when I DM)...but after skimming, I don't see any notes on what happened to him? Also, it mentions the knights of myth drannor, but there are no stats for all of them. Anyone know if they have been officially updated to 3.X? (ie. merith strongbow et al). Regards, Sanjay |
| Ianten_Silverblade07-12-07, 02:11 PM | Ironically I find the very scenario of Shadowdale's conquering and razing to be complete and utter crap. Elminster and Storm would foresee such an event long before it ever became reality and would take steps to stop it! To be perfectly blunt, I fail to see how a group of 8th to 12th level Zhentarim and Sharians were able to destroy Elminster's tower let alone conqurer the Dalelands! Elminster is CR 39 or 40 (depending on when this occurs). He freaking eats CR 8 or CR 12 opponent's for breakfast! The only possible way I can understand Shadowdale and all other dales in front of it being smashes by 12th Level Zhents and Shars is if Elminster was somehow trapped somewhere. Ironically this still leaves Storm Silverhand and Randal Morn and either one would be able to muster a huge army of Dalesfolk to repel the Zhents/Shars. Sorry WotC but your story so far isn't making much sense. I'm hoping for a better explanation. |
| peteyrock07-12-07, 03:17 PM | *Shrug* I don't really know what happened. But, I'm glad such a drastic change has taken place. Elminster has been BAMF numero uno for sooo long. It's time for a new generation of characters. |
| MerrikCale07-12-07, 08:21 PM | He was out making a booty call |
| sw04ca07-12-07, 10:05 PM | Ironically I find the very scenario of Shadowdale's conquering and razing to be complete and utter crap. Elminster and Storm would foresee such an event long before it ever became reality and would take steps to stop it! Not neccessarily. After all, Elminster and Storm aren't vastly more competant than Fzoul and Manshoon. Remember, the Zhentarim is actually rather competant now, not like the imbeciles who spent the 1st and 2nd editions getting embarrased. Ironically this still leaves Storm Silverhand and Randal Morn and either one would be able to muster a huge army of Dalesfolk to repel the Zhents/Shars. Sorry WotC but your story so far isn't making much sense. I'm hoping for a better explanation. What makes you say that? It's not like every time the Zhents moved into the Dales, they were annihilated by an unstoppable army of Dalesmen. Look what happened to Teshendale and Daggerdale. As Sembia becomes more and more aggressive, you're going to see less and less willingness for the more populous and powerful Southern Dales to march an army North. |
| Ioulaum07-12-07, 10:47 PM | Not neccessarily. After all, Elminster and Storm aren't vastly more competant than Fzoul and Manshoon. Remember, the Zhentarim is actually rather competant now, not like the imbeciles who spent the 1st and 2nd editions getting embarrased. Except Manshoon and Fzoul isn't working together closely and El stil out lvl both Manshoon and Fzoul. What makes you say that? It's not like every time the Zhents moved into the Dales, they were annihilated by an unstoppable army of Dalesmen. Look what happened to Teshendale and Daggerdale. As Sembia becomes more and more aggressive, you're going to see less and less willingness for the more populous and powerful Southern Dales to march an army North. Sembia is currently allie with the New Myth Dannar and Elven army kick the Zhent all the way back to Zhentil keep the last time the Zhents invade. Also Shadowdale could raise a army of about 1300+. Smaller then what Zhents could deploy but could still put up a big enough fight for the elves to come help. |
| Paix07-12-07, 11:05 PM | I have the first part but not the second. Am I to understand that there are no details on Elminster's whereabouts or the Knights of Myth Drannor? Or any of the well-known characters of Shadowdale? A previous poster mentioned an army of elves marching to defend Shadowdale from Myth Drannor? Is it not in ruins? There is no mention in the first part about the adventures being based on or of a novel. Is this where all these issues are resolved? |
| Drew1369r07-12-07, 11:27 PM | You run the adventure as its printed for best results. If the elves don't march to defend Shadowdale then they don't march to defend it... its supposed to be up to the characters, not NPC's from a novel. |
| Ioulaum07-13-07, 12:40 AM | I have the first part but not the second. Am I to understand that there are no details on Elminster's whereabouts or the Knights of Myth Drannor? Or any of the well-known characters of Shadowdale? A previous poster mentioned an army of elves marching to defend Shadowdale from Myth Drannor? Is it not in ruins? There is no mention in the first part about the adventures being based on or of a novel. Is this where all these issues are resolved? Myth Dannar has been reclaim by a elven crusade in the The Last Mythal Trilogy. |
| Ioulaum07-13-07, 12:42 AM | You run the adventure as its printed for best results. If the elves don't march to defend Shadowdale then they don't march to defend it... its supposed to be up to the characters, not NPC's from a novel. But what possible reason would the elves not help defend Shadowdale. Are the Zhents that better neightbors. Do the make better cookies or something? The elves did it once, there is no reason not to do it again. |
| MarkusTay6307-13-07, 02:21 AM | The thing I want to know is, with all those empty areas lying around in the western heartlands, why bother putting that much effort into taking out a little rural village? Sounds to me the Zhents are just as stupid as ever - they keep trying the same bad plan over and over and over... The fact that this was the best idea WotC could come up with for a three part mega-adventure is just plain sad. I'm sure if Paizo did it, it would have rocked. :rolleyes: |
| Drew1369r07-13-07, 02:45 AM | But what possible reason would the elves not help defend Shadowdale. Are the Zhents that better neightbors. Do the make better cookies or something? The elves did it once, there is no reason not to do it again. I'm talking about the adventure... not canon... if the adventure doesn't have anything that says the elves march to their defense, then they don't march to their defense. |
| CrimsonRanger07-13-07, 06:20 AM | The adventure does discuss what happened to Elminster, why the elves didn't help with this invasion and why the sisters and Knights couldn't help, at a high level. It doesn't go into any details about the Knights because they're not part of the adventure. Some of this information was in Dragon 354 as well. I'm wondering about Shadowdale after the adventure. Without going into details about what's in the adventure, I'm wondering about the effects on the area afterwards. My group has strong ties to that part of the Dales and will not rest til things are put right, which goes beyond what's included in this module. I'm hoping that by the time I get around to running this, some more information on the aftermath of the invasion and the retaking of Myth Drannor is available. |
| StarFyre07-13-07, 07:11 AM | Oh yes, last night I went through it. Silly me, it's near the start. Elminster was almost killed in an attack, so his contingencies kicked in and he was teleported away to his pocket dimension ...so he's away for a while. Sanjay |
| Mirtek07-16-07, 01:30 PM | Ironically this still leaves Storm Silverhand and Randal Morn and either one would be able to muster a huge army of Dalesfolk to repel the Zhents/Shars. Sorry WotC but your story so far isn't making much sense. I'm hoping for a better explanation. The whole game the Zhents are currently playing aroung the Moonsea makes no sense. They should not be able to raise so many armies. After the loses during the Last Mythal Trilogy and enduring a rage of dragons, it's hard to believe they were able to muster the second army to take Hillsfar. They should not be able to muster an army capable of taking the Dales for years. That's one of the worst thing of all these "realms shacking" novels. Every author wants to shacke the realms, every author get's the OK from WotC and every author more or less completly ignores all aftereffects the realm shacking from the author before him should have left. A rage of dragons should have left all realms and economies in ruins, it should lead to many quite years without any large army moving because no realm should be able to muster such an army for quite some time. Yet the Zhents seems to have found a decanter of endless soldiers and Sembia seems to have found one as well, given how they're muserting thousands of soldier for their civil war (not that there is a drought, a food shortage, aftereffects from a rain and fire and a rage of dragons that might spoil such a mustering) |
| MarkusTay6307-16-07, 01:48 PM | I bought the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set years ago, and a few months later the Keep was back up and running EXACTLY as it was before the MASSIVE army of monsters took it over. :uh-huh: Worst case of 'planned obsolescence' of a product I have ever seen. I think Manshoon isn't the only Zhent to become part of the 'Clone Wars', because even if you kill them all, they all come back the next day... like roaches... It is EXTREMELY unbelievable that an organization that has such a terrible record with failure amd mistreatment of members could so easily gain new recruits in such huge numbers. There is a point when 'fantasy' ends, and delusional begins.... |
| Micheal_Roele07-16-07, 02:05 PM | A rage of dragons should have left all realms and economies in ruins, it should lead to many quite years without any large army moving because no realm should be able to muster such an army for quite some time. I think that was a typo Mirtek. It wasn't supposed to be "rage" of dragons, but "rave" of dragons. There was a fearsome flight, but it was supposed to be a night of drinking, singles mixing, and bragging about treasure hoards. The economy of a local tavern was the only thing wrecked. Don't get me wrong, I am not downplaying the valor of the Inkeep and his Barmaids dealing with a hoard of drunk dragons, and it likely took some Spellfire and a few Chosen of Various Gods to get all those meals cooked, but clearly the "Rave of Dragons" typo has created alot of continuity problems. I agree with you. I am sure this will be corrected in the next novel. Lets hope there isn't a "Rage of Dagons." I mean, if a bunch of obryith lords invaded, clearly would there not be some signs of an invasion? Yet the Zhents seems to have found a decanter of endless soldiers and Sembia seems to have found one as well, given how they're muserting thousands of soldier for their civil war (not that there is a drought, a food shortage, aftereffects from a rain and fire and a rage of dragons that might spoil such a mustering) I am rather upset the "Decanter of Endless Soldiers" didn't make it to the final magic items cut. It is the only logical explanation as to how the "Keystone Cops" (aka the Zhents) all of the sudden compete on the Moonsea. I mean, their city was destroyed and sacked by a hoard of monsters, changed patron gods a couple times, they had been whipped by the same six one-legged grandmothers from the Dales for decades, and all of the sudden we are supposed to believe they are some kind of credible threat? Just get it over with, and stat the Decanter of Endless Soldiers. It makes sense, and is a logical explanation on how nations can take the grievous losses they do in the Bi-Monthly Realms Calamity. Elminster was almost killed in an attack, Almost only counts in horseshoes. The Zhents haven't scored a "ringer" in years. One thing is predictably dull and sure, Elminster will be back again, rebuild his tower, and continue his body count on blasting Manshoon Clones. I am sure the PC's will whip up the Zhents and grumbling if they were such a threat, why didn't we get better magic items and treasure when we dusted them. |
| ClobberinTime07-16-07, 07:54 PM | Was it the princes of Shade that showed up and ran off Elminster? They could do it, and then trap him in his pocket dimension. |
| Muddman07-16-07, 08:22 PM | I like the drastic steps the Realms are taking, I'm very sick of the epics saving the day... its infuriating! I actually had a group of 10th level PCs shrug off an adventure hook with the mind set of "Meh, I'm sure an archmage will take care of it"... so I blew up half of a ward in Waterdeep. It wasn't that an archmage COULDN'T have handled it, its that no archmage KNEW about it, so the adventure's villan kept going on their marry way and succeeded. They neer made that mistake again :) As for why not take over the empty space in the western heartlands is because its strategically suicide. They could never supply an attack that far west without covering their flank, they'd get demolished in no time. And last I checked, Storm Silverhand is a heck of a BARD, but given her stats and the way her levels work out she couldn't out magic either Fzoul or Manshoon and she can't outfight Darkhope, so her best bet is to run and hide. They're immortal - but only if they aren't stupid. I'm glad that the WoTC group is taking major events out of the NOVELS hands and putting it in the PCs. They need more adventures like this! |
| Ioulaum07-16-07, 08:22 PM | Was it the princes of Shade that showed up and ran off Elminster? They could do it, and then trap him in his pocket dimension. Nope, El's weave magic and the shadow magic created a tear to the Nine-Hell. El jump in to the Hells to fix it form the other side. Telemont is a match for El but not any of the other Princes. |
| ericlboyd07-17-07, 11:24 AM | But what possible reason would the elves not help defend Shadowdale. Are the Zhents that better neightbors. Do the make better cookies or something? The elves did it once, there is no reason not to do it again. SPOILERS from Dragon #354 and Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land ... The elves are hardpressed by the Zhentil Keep's legions and the Masked Brigades. As described in the adventure, if the PCs don't solve the Shadowdale situation (aka the western flank), the elves are going to be hardpressed to hold on to Myth Drannor at all. --Eric |
| ericlboyd07-17-07, 11:25 AM | I have the first part but not the second. Am I to understand that there are no details on Elminster's whereabouts or the Knights of Myth Drannor? Or any of the well-known characters of Shadowdale? These issues are not resolved in a novel. The location of the Knights of Myth Drannor is explained. The absence of Elminster is explained. The absence of the other 3 Chosen of Mystra normally resident in Shadowdale is explained. It's up to the PCs to save the day. --Eric |
| ericlboyd07-17-07, 11:27 AM | The thing I want to know is, with all those empty areas lying around in the western heartlands, why bother putting that much effort into taking out a little rural village? If the Zhents control Voonlar, Shadowdale, and Mistledale, they control Myth Drannor's western flank. The Twisted Tower is the linchpin to such control. --Eric |
| Mirtek07-17-07, 12:31 PM | The elves are hardpressed by the Zhentil Keep's legions and the Masked Brigades. At least tell us that these are undead legions or give us the stats of their decanter of endless soldies. the elves are going to be hardpressed to hold on to Myth Drannor at all. So the army that defeated the daemonfey is hard pressed by an army that could not even really scratch the daemonfey. Just like the army from Sembia went from being on a hard pressed retreat because they couldn't scratch the daemonfey either to a valuable ally of the crusade that could suddenly kill a lot of daemonfey on their own. It seems the FR are suddenly suffering from this comic book syndrome were the abilities of a villian rise and fall (with worlds inbetween the portrayed powerlevels) just like the current authors needs him to be. |
| ericlboyd07-17-07, 12:50 PM | So the army that defeated the daemonfey is hard pressed by an army that could not even really scratch the daemonfey. The Army of Myth Drannor suffered significant losses in its victory over House Dlardrageth. Moreover, it went from a mobile, flexible force to an army forced to defend a specific locale. The army of Zhentil Keep and the Masked Brigades are relatively fresh. The Masked Brigades in particular are fighting a guerrilla war beneath the boughs, cutting off merchant trains from the fledgling city, denying them much needed supplies. The Army of Myth Drannor also has to tame and rebuild the ruins. --Eric |
| Mirtek07-17-07, 01:29 PM | Well, IMO it's about time that a human army once meets an elven army and leaves as the victor (so far I could only find one such a victory of an sembian army protecting the cutting of a trade road through an elven forest), I just find this sudden portrayal a quite drastic change from how their strength against each other was in the novels. |
| Bonzai07-17-07, 03:42 PM | At least they didn't do to El what they did to Halaster, and write him off as a footnote in the upcoming history of the realms. I was hoping for an epic dawnybrook between Fzoul and El myself. Oh well. |
| Micheal_Roele07-17-07, 04:24 PM | The army of Zhentil Keep I would like to know where Zhentil Keep gets a population, let alone an army to conquer most of the Moonsea? They had little population and most of the city was a monster infested ruin. It would take several generations to recover from a wipeout on that scale. Given all our technology in the real world, we still can't rebuild New Orleans, and we don't have Frost Giants, White Dragons, Orcs, and who knows what else running around the ruins. Given there has been a Rage of Dragons and other notable events, where did they recruit this army? Is Bane contracting soldiers from Blackstone, who in turn are recruiting form the cancelled campaign settings? Has Fzoul purchased Cloning Chambers from Darth Sidious? I agree with Mirtek, where is the Decatur of Endless Soldiers, because there is no realistic way Zhentil Keep could rebuild an army, or even the industry to support the army in that short of time. |
| ClobberinTime07-17-07, 05:01 PM | Nope, El's weave magic and the shadow magic created a tear to the Nine-Hell. El jump in to the Hells to fix it form the other side. Telemont is a match for El but not any of the other Princes. So in the Module, Elminster gets sent to the 9 again? He gets sent there twice in 2-3 years? Is there going to be another Novel: 'Elminster in Hell II' |
| Dark Psion07-17-07, 05:50 PM | I would like to know where Zhentil Keep gets a population, let alone an army to conquer most of the Moonsea? They had little population and most of the city was a monster infested ruin. Lots of ***** houses. :D Let's see, I would say that over the years Zents had infitrated almost every nation in realms with agents and spies. After the rage and ruins, they called many of them home to rebuild. Also I can imagine a recuiting drive, with both forceful indoctornation and charismatic conversions of all they encountered. Throw in some charms and dominations as well and you could put together a good sized army quickly. |
| HVulpes07-17-07, 06:12 PM | I'm a little rusty with Prince of Lies, but... wasn't there a part of the book where Mystra convinced the different Non-Cyric gods in aiding her in protecting the people of the Keep and even removing them from the worse of battle. So that the chaos was mainly focused on the Cyricist in the Keep? This would explain the weakened influence of Cyric before the comming of Bane and the fact that the population is not as badly hit. I admit that I might be wrong, but it is a possible in world excuse for the army not being desimated. |
| ClobberinTime07-17-07, 08:04 PM | Lots of ***** houses. :D Let's see, I would say that over the years Zents had infitrated almost every nation in realms with agents and spies. After the rage and ruins, they called many of them home to rebuild. Also I can imagine a recuiting drive, with both forceful indoctornation and charismatic conversions of all they encountered. Throw in some charms and dominations as well and you could put together a good sized army quickly. They aren't a nation, they are an organization, so they probably recruit from (in order): 1, Their own and other cities of the Moonsea 2, The Vast 3, Sembia 4, The Western Heartlands 5, The Cities of the Dragon Coast (Starmantle, and Westgate) 6, Damara I.e. Their recruits are from all over the place, basically anyone with the right alignment that wants to better their place in the world and is the right alignment (LE, NE, LN). |
| Paix07-17-07, 08:13 PM | Thank you for the answers. So the adventure addresses the whereabouts of the more well known Shadowdale residents, and the Last Mythal novels cover the return of the elves in Myth Drannor. I will have to express some suprise, as noted by previous posters, that the Zhentarim are able to marshall such forces. Bane's zhentilar armies were decimated during the Time of Trouble, followed by the Cyric Debacle, the Manshoon clone, wars, a rage of dragons, the schism and infighting among Cyricis and Banites after Bane's return and a number of other moves. I suppose the behind the scenes domination of other Moonsea cities may have allowed them to pull more troops and the bulk of their armies were in the Citadel of the Raven but it is impossible to judge since accurate numbers have not been given; at least not to my knowledge. Perhaps some liberties need to be excused, because otherwise the Dales, Cormyr and a number of cities of the Moonsea would be in ruins and bereft of humans if a precise demographic account was maintained. On the specific issue of Shadowdale, not much manpower is needed to at least control a route and occupy the main town, with Elminster and the Knights unable to assist in its defence. |
| clevercommie07-18-07, 11:23 AM | Question... what year does this develop in? I'm wondering if this is a prelude some deus ex machina crap to try and restore myth drannor to a ruined adventure site. |
| Ioulaum07-18-07, 01:36 PM | Also I can imagine a recuiting drive, with both forceful indoctornation and charismatic conversions of all they encountered. Throw in some charms and dominations as well and you could put together a good sized army quickly. A good size army that is well train is a mob. It takes time to train a army. After so many debacles they can't have that many good officers left. As for recuriting drive, I can see the Zhents putting out a want ad in the Daliy Faerun. Right next to the want ad for the Cult of Dragons, Kraken Society and the other doeze or so evil societies. |
| ClobberinTime07-18-07, 02:33 PM | A good size army that is well train is a mob. It takes time to train a army. After so many debacles they can't have that many good officers left. As for recuriting drive, I can see the Zhents putting out a want ad in the Daliy Faerun. Right next to the want ad for the Cult of Dragons, Kraken Society and the other doeze or so evil societies. Yeah but since the Zhentarim control a specific geographical area, you can just travel there and 'join up'. |
| sw04ca07-18-07, 10:29 PM | I would like to know where Zhentil Keep gets a population, let alone an army to conquer most of the Moonsea? They had little population and most of the city was a monster infested ruin. I imagine they resettled in Zhentil Keep, after being scattered by the monster army. After all, it's not like the Moonsea is a particularily forgiving region to be a refugee, and as others noted, the Keep wasn't ruined for very long. Moreover, Zhentil Keep is just a city, albeit a very important one, in the larger Zhent empire. There is still plenty of industry and people in Phlan, Yulash, Teshwave, Voonlar, Snowmantle, the Citadel of the Raven, and all the lands inbetween. There's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a half-million people living under Zhent rule, outside of Zhentil Keep, judging from the area controlled by the Zhents, the 3rd Edition population figures and a reasonable division of urban/rural population. It would take several generations to recover from a wipeout on that scale. Given all our technology in the real world, we still can't rebuild New Orleans, and we don't have Frost Giants, White Dragons, Orcs, and who knows what else running around the ruins. Seems that the monsters got cleared out in pretty short order, and the orcs are probably back in Zhent employ again, as they were before Cyric wasted the Keep. In fact, it makes it very convenient that they're able to expand their military, while at the same time draining away the monster problem. Zhentil Keep still has it's merchant empire, and thus the gold to pay off the monsters. As for rebuilding, it's much easier to rebuild a simple stone and wood city than it is to rebuild a modern metropolis. Zhentil Keep doesn't have to be rebuilt according to code, nor do they need to worry about utilities, or the safety of workers. I agree with Mirtek, where is the Decatur of Endless Soldiers, because there is no realistic way Zhentil Keep could rebuild an army, or even the industry to support the army in that short of time. Well, I think that it would be a little unreasonable for the Zhents to suddenly knock out Hillsfar, whose military is pretty first rate. However, it's not like the Zhents didn't have an army in the field, even while Zhentil Keep was being destroyed. |
| mcJoker07-19-07, 03:29 AM | Also keep in mind that the Zhentarim train military tactics regardless of where they are. Since their greatest ally at the moment is the Church of Bane, it is quite feasable that many fighters have been trained in various temples of the Black Gauntlet strewn about Faerūn. These would also have the clerics who would be capable of convincing and converting others to Bane. In addition to them, the Zhentarim have been recruiting like-minded wizards and clerics of Bane...though the rest of their recruiting drives had been slowed down (LoD)...my best guess would be the individual base camps near settlements, where a priest of Bane would be able to influence the locals over time while the soldiers there 'defend' them against local monster populations (agitated or even conjured by them of course) and a few of their other fortresses which still exist. So, whereas the numbers might be questionable, they would be very well trained as the training is an everyday part of life... Also don't underestimate the Sharrans...they have grown relatively strong in the shadows and are also an essential part of this force. Now all of that having been said, I do agree that there are some questionable parts of this accessory book...let's see where it leads to though...might end up being better than thought. |
| Micheal_Roele07-19-07, 09:02 AM | Seems that the monsters got cleared out in pretty short order, and the orcs are probably back in Zhent employ again, as they were before Cyric wasted the Keep. In fact, it makes it very convenient that they're able to expand their military, while at the same time draining away the monster problem. The real reason is the Zhents were needed as first rate bad guys for new game story arcs, and not their traditional Keystone Cops role, in attempt to undo the damage done to the setting. So a wave of the pen and everything is restored, their power is increasesd, and presto, they have conquered Hillsfar and much of the Moonsea. That is the real reason. I don't buy they had that many agents or armies surviving elsewhere, especially with the numerous defeats they suffered. Where were these supposed armies? You would think Hillsfar or someone would finish them off? I guess it shows ultimately, the people of the Moonsea are idiots apparently. Hence why I say they are using a Decatur of Endless Soldiers. |
| Mirtek07-19-07, 12:52 PM | Yeah but since the Zhentarim control a specific geographical area, you can just travel there and 'join up'. And because basically each and every army the zhents ever mustered ended in bloddy death and ruin for their soldies, I am sure there are countless new recruits motivated to sign up and join this fate If the Zhents had been (barely) able to muster just one such army (a considerable feat so shortly after these many desasters) it may have been so. But then once again losing basically the entire new army in Shadowdale and just being able to just "pull out a brand new second army from under Fzoul's magical hat" to march on Hillfar is beyond plausibility. With such mustering capabilities the Zhents should have conquered the Moonsea, Dales, Sembia and Cormyr long ago, they should already having their navy laying siege to Evermeet. Their city was sieged, stormed and plundered for quite a time. The defending forces mostly wiped out (firt big military loses) and just able to hold the last few parts until reinforcements from the citadel could arrive. Fzoul's authority over the western branch is worth less than the paper it's written upon, the Cyricists do what they want and if they ever send an army it won't be coming to help the Banite branch. A rage of dragons while the city should still be busy just to reach the pre-siege state. Losing annother army in shadowdale. Not even Rome could produce so may legion in such a shorty time. According to Suetonius, after receiving news of the slaughter that wiped out the XVII, the XVIII, and the XIX roman legion, emperor Augustus could be heard hitting his head against a door and lamenting aloud, "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!". Fzoul would have said "Ups, so just raise five new legion until breakfast, will ya" (and Rome's loses were only about 10% of their entire military) So a wave of the pen and everything is restored, their power is increasesd, and presto, That's exactly how it looks. |
| ericlboyd07-19-07, 12:53 PM | For those who are bothered by the number and skill of Zhentarim military forces, consider tweaking the description so that the bulk of the occupying troops are of Calishite, Tethyrian, and Chondathan origin. A successful Knowledge check would reveal they appear to be legions of the Knights of the Black Gauntlet. The implication is that Zhentil Keep is shipping troops northward via a portal from Mintar and then marching them south and east to conquer the Moonsea and northern Cormanthor. --Eric |
| sw04ca07-19-07, 07:22 PM | The real reason is the Zhents were needed as first rate bad guys for new game story arcs, and not their traditional Keystone Cops role, in attempt to undo the damage done to the setting. So a wave of the pen and everything is restored, their power is increasesd, and presto, they have conquered Hillsfar and much of the Moonsea. That is the real reason. Why does anything happen in a game world. It's all contrived to move forward some plot or another. Azoun didn't die because it's realistic for old people to die. He died because his death would breathe some excitement into a previously tired Cormyr, and to 'shake the Realms'. I don't buy they had that many agents or armies surviving elsewhere, especially with the numerous defeats they suffered. Where were these supposed armies? You would think Hillsfar or someone would finish them off? I guess it shows ultimately, the people of the Moonsea are idiots apparently. It's not as if defeated Zhent armies were slaughtered to the last man, and we know that regardless of what happened to Zhentil Keep, there were still a large expanse of lands that made up the Zhent empire. Zhent military forces survived in a large triangular area stretching from Phlan to the Citadel of the Raven to Daggerdale, as well as throughout Anauroch and the the area streching from Darkhold, through the Goblin Marches to the Shadow Gap Mountains. Even when Zhentil Keep was still burning, the Zhents still controlled a vast swathe of territory ranging from the Moonsea to the Sunset Mountains, with the only interuption being Shadowdale. It's sort of like if New York were to be attacked by Frost Giants. They can flatten the city, but the US still has an awful lot of men and territory. It won't kill them. As for why Hillsfar didn't attack Zhentil Keep during it's weakness, there are a few reasons I could see. For one, even if they took Zhentil Keep, it wouldn't end the Zhent organization. Hillsfar doesn't have the manpower to make a run at the Zhent empire, and even attacking Zhentil Keep would leave them vulnerable to an attack by Mulmaster or Melvaunt, in order to attack a city they'd never be able to hold anyways. |
| Mirtek07-20-07, 11:52 AM | Hillsfar doesn't have the manpower to make a run at the Zhent empire, The Zhents don't have an empire. They're one large city and a few subsidiaries, But these aren't zhentish lands (like the roman empire had a real empire with it's holdings outside of Rome with citizins considering themselves citizens of a greater roman empire), these are garrisons which dominate unwilling citizinens with their rule ending with their sword arms. And of the two most importants holdings (beside the main city) Darkhold is lost to the Banite Zhents and won't offer any help. The Zhents getting army after army slaughtered their main city razed by a huge army of monsters -> RoZK details the destruction (42k citizens (half of the population) and all but a small portion of the former southern quarter dead/destroyed) their western half becoming "theirs" only in theory having to bear the latest rage of Dragons, -> at a time when the most common thing in the Keep should still be scaffoldings and not marching recruits still somehow manage to muster a large army -> losing most of this army in the battle and the most of rest during the ill-fated retreat and they are still spitting out one army after annother as if they've found the decanter of endless soldiers |
| msatran07-20-07, 01:03 PM | Actually, the decanter idea doesn't bother me so much as the fact that the entire adventure is supposed to take close to a year, but the idea that no good aligned adventurer of significant power might take offense at the Zhentish occupation, gather their own buddies, and storm in there with high level spells, divinations, and a single decent high level fighter, and wreck everything does. "What was that? Did some angry 22nd level Fighter just mow those people down? How did they know they were spies? Holy !#$$@!, that evil cleric just exploded! My GOD! They're dying! They're all dying! I can't see anything except blood!" The adventure path is cute, but it WRECKS living worlds and other people who run multiple games in the same world all the time. And trust me, I have dozens of PCs who, the moment they saw this, would just storm Shadowdale with all of the mighty divination resources at their command, locate the spies with powerful divination magics, and kill them. They're not chosen. They can make the checks. The army is a mopup operation. The sharrans are a mopup operation. The other big problem with this adventure is not the decanter of endless soldiers. Here's how medieval conscription works. "Hello, sir! Thou art a peasant! You have eight children! How many do you need to work that farm?" "Six, sir! " "We will take your two eldest, you no longer have to support them, and if they survive in our army, they will gain rank and prestige, and become men!" Most farmers in medieval societies said yes! Desperate people whose farms are failing due to constant warfare gladly send people off to war to lose mouths to feed. And sometimes, they even survive to have rank, prestige, and maybe, if they're lucky, remember their parents. ------------------------------------ The other problem is, of course, mobilization times. How do the Zhents still have enough of an army to do this big invasion of Hillsfar in 1375 when the Crusade starts? Marching an army isn't as easy as it looks, cleric spells or no cleric spells. Setting up a camp for six is not as easy as setting up a camp for six hundred. Plus, how many clones of Scyulla Darkhope are there? If she dies here, she can't invade over there in Hillsfar later in the year. Yes, Fzoul can true ressurrect her, but if that happens then the players feel cheated and that what they did just didn't mean anything. On a metalevel, I'm not actually fond of the Realms Shaking events every year. With the way they're shaking the realms now, the sand has pretty much fallen out of the hourglass. It's very sad, but it has. The Realms needs a rest where nothing major happens. Everything's been uprooted and shaken, and no nation has gone unscathed. Now, there's a way to fix this, but I'm not sure wizards wants to do with FR what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder. I'd support this, and I know we'd all love it, the question is whether or not we'd be willing to pay 20.00 a month for the 96 page magazine. One 32 page adventure or mechanical crunch thing, 64 pages of Lore. I know that TONS of people would pay for this, and if Wizards gave it a go, I'd sure like that better than the sporadic things we get now. Plus, we might actually get to SEE the Border Kingdoms this way. |
| ericlboyd07-20-07, 02:11 PM | Plus, how many clones of Scyulla Darkhope are there? If she dies here, she can't invade over there in Hillsfar later in the year. Yes, Fzoul can true ressurrect her, but if that happens then the players feel cheated and that what they did just didn't mean anything. The intent is that Fzoul will never resurrect Scyulla for political reasons. He's had two successive defeats in Shadowdale in less than a year. He's hanging this on Scyulla from hereon. She's the scapegoat. --Eric |
| ClobberinTime07-20-07, 02:13 PM | Why do you all think that the Zhent armies are so small? By the time of the events in Last Mythal its been 6 years since the Cyric induced slaughter in Zhentil Keep. Mercenary armies like the Zhents don't take that long to recruit. Also according to the FR Campaign guide, the population of the city of Zhentil Keep should support about 10,000 troops. Only half of those were dispatched to Shadowdale in the invasion in the Last Mythal books, and who knows how many of those ended up returning to Zhentil Keep alive. Probably whatever strength the Red Plumes have left would have also joined the Zhent army. I like Eric's idea that the Church of Bane and the Zhentarim network at large has been funneling men and materials to the Zhent army in the Moonsea over the two years since Bane has returned. It is conceivable that the Zhentish army at the beginning of the first campaign in Shadowdale was upwards of 20,000 men. Also mercenaries are pretty easy to recruit. |
| ericlboyd07-20-07, 02:23 PM | Another thought is that I would expect by this time that Fzoul can pull troops out of the other Moonsea cities, particularly Mulmaster. As Tyrant of the Moonsea and patriarch of the Church of Bane, Fzoul has access to Banite templars in the Moonsea region and beyond far beyond what was available a few years ago during the period of schism between the various leaders of the Church of Bane. --Eric |
| johnnype07-20-07, 03:16 PM | I read the excerpts for the adventure on the WotC website and it sounds like a good followup to CORMYR. I'm looking forward to reading it in its entirety when I get it. I don't know what all the fuss on this thread is about. Eric, Richard & Thomas explain everything in the introduction. Before anyone else feels like condemning a book they have not read I suggest they at least read the excerpt. The events make perfect sense, to me at least. To the authors, thanks for putting this together. I look forward to playing it some day soon. |
| msatran07-20-07, 04:43 PM | Well, the truth of the matter is that Fzoul can ressurrect anyone as many times as he wants, whenever he wants. But the truth of the matter is that now you have a major timeline kludge to fix if the adventure doesn't take the specified amount of time. Obviously, if the PC's are so tough that they can mow down everything in the area, then Darkhope doesn't show up because that's a waste of resources. If they can take the whole area back in a week or less (Possible), then it doesn't matter, Fzoul will write it off as a loss.... Until the PC's knock on his door.... Which would also be fine. |
| Mirtek07-21-07, 06:27 PM | Why do you all think that the Zhent armies are so small? Because there are game supplements giving their numbers. Also according to the FR Campaign guide, the population of the city of Zhentil Keep should support about 10,000 troops. With the reduced 3e population? No way. Not even with the 2e population from before the siege (at this time 83k) could they support a 10k army (maybe an 8k army but these would already be outdoing the Spartans who needed about 10 civilians for each soldier) It is conceivable that the Zhentish army at the beginning of the first campaign in Shadowdale was upwards of 20,000 men. Also mercenaries are pretty easy to recruit. That would be about 5x as big as all the forces they had under their command prior to the Keeps destruction and the western half becoming independet in all but name (and that's counting the army of the keep + the armies in the Citadel and in Darkhold, together these numbered about 5,000 men). ZK should still be having more than enough trouble just supporting the half of the old population that survived the monster siege (and that's without having to endure a rage of dragons shortly after the first desaster) -------------------------------------------- According to the 3e FRCS the Keep's army normally numbers 2.000 men (and this is awfully lot for a city with a 14k population), while the 2e sources give the number as 3,000 (at this time the city was supposed to house a 80k population). So a ratio of 4 civilians to 1 soldier, no clue how they can support this. And then the loses during the last rage of dragons and the loses of the failed invasion of Shadowdale during the alliance with the daemonfey, they should not have been able to muster a second army to lay siege to Hillsfar for a few years, don't even start with being able to launch any significant second attempt against Shadowdale. |
| Zandilar07-21-07, 08:13 PM | Heya, The intent is that Fzoul will never resurrect Scyulla for political reasons. He's had two successive defeats in Shadowdale in less than a year. He's hanging this on Scyulla from hereon. She's the scapegoat. I've always felt sorry for her. :( Poor woman, she's had such a rough life - and proved that she's capable of rising above it. However, not too many people can resist the manipulations of a Pit Fiend, and so she fell again. I would hope to see some redemption for her in the future (even if it's just in the manner of her death), but I'm not holding my breath. |
| Rauric07-21-07, 11:24 PM | Ironically I find the very scenario of Shadowdale's conquering and razing to be complete and utter crap. Elminster and Storm would foresee such an event long before it ever became reality and would take steps to stop it! To be perfectly blunt, I fail to see how a group of 8th to 12th level Zhentarim and Sharians were able to destroy Elminster's tower let alone conqurer the Dalelands! Elminster is CR 39 or 40 (depending on when this occurs). He freaking eats CR 8 or CR 12 opponent's for breakfast! The only possible way I can understand Shadowdale and all other dales in front of it being smashes by 12th Level Zhents and Shars is if Elminster was somehow trapped somewhere. Ironically this still leaves Storm Silverhand and Randal Morn and either one would be able to muster a huge army of Dalesfolk to repel the Zhents/Shars. Sorry WotC but your story so far isn't making much sense. I'm hoping for a better explanation. The explaination is that Elminster is currently out of the picture and I believe so is the Simbul. A certain other Archmage chosen is dead as is a very powerful master mage of a very famous dungeon. Basically I think WOTC is trying to limit the goodguy Uber NPCs in FR and leave the saving the Realms stuff to the players. Less high lvl goodguys and more high level bad guys I believe will be the trend. I don't have the book yet but plan to run all three with a group of mine who is waiting for me to restart our old campaign. I made them the heros of Nesme in my last game, I want to see if I can make those PCs be the heros of the whole Realms now.:D Plus those soldiers could be gotten from Hillsfar, and many other Moonsea areas which the Zhents now run. The Moonsea is like the USSR now a little. Plus there are always mercs from many areas around Faerun. |
| msatran07-21-07, 11:40 PM | Well, if you look at what a thousand year old archmage can really do, and if he spends the time and the experience points, the real zhentish invasion of Shadowdale looks something like this. Sharrans appear and try to steal his artifact and are all turned into lawful good Ki-rins! Except one. He rolled a 20. Elminster casts Empowered Maximized Polar Ray on him, and Quickened Empowered Maximized Polar Ray. Unless he's a Stone Giant Barbarian or some other creature which can't fit in El's tower, he dies. The Zhentish Invasion is stopped by the unlikely effect of their aerial units turning into giant 270x270 squares of rock and falling on the poor ground troops, killing all but their leaders. At this point, a four year old with a thrown rock could cut them down, but why bother? Sure, they're only 270 x 270 squares of rock for about 3 minutes, but that's more than enough to crush the life out of anything underneath them. At this point, I'd be running for the freaking hills, and back to Zhentil Keep as fast as my legs could carry me. |
| Mr_Miscellany07-22-07, 04:03 AM | The implication is that Zhentil Keep is shipping troops northward via a portal from Mintar and then marching them south and east to conquer the Moonsea and northern Cormanthor. I can't believe I'm the only person that figured this out on his own. That is, the FRCS makes clear Fzoul's spreading the gauntlet of Bane's control (so to speak) far to the south and west. The Zhentarim are also adept slavers and know better than most how to find, hire and/or 'train' (read: force) individuals into service. How could it not follow that in a world riddled with portals (gates for you older gamers out there) that the Zhentarim would transfer manpower as needed to take territory and hold it? After the years (decades, really) of the Zhents portrayed as less than competent, it is now highly gratifying to see them working in a concerted, focused manner. Thank Bane (and TSR's sale to WotC) for that. :cool: |
| GothicDan07-22-07, 04:25 AM | Also note, as to the "good guy NPCs": Khelben was LN, Halaster was CN, and the Simbul is CN... |
| Zandilar07-22-07, 05:05 AM | Heya, Also note, as to the "good guy NPCs": Khelben was LN, Halaster was CN, and the Simbul is CN... Oh, but they're beholden to Mystra who's NG... They can't really be neutral, can they? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Sarcastic enough? ;) :) |
| Mirtek07-22-07, 06:56 AM | How could it not follow that in a world riddled with portals (gates for you older gamers out there) that the Zhentarim would transfer manpower as needed to take territory and hold it? Because they don't have the manpower to transfer it through the portals and they don't have the manpower to enslave enough manpower to sent them through the portals. After the years (decades, really) of the Zhents portrayed as less than competent, it is now highly gratifying to see them working in a concerted, focused manner. It's also completly unrealistic and that spoils me of any satisfaction that a human army kicking the ### out of an elven army would normally give me. You say it: They were portrayed as less than competent for decades and this should have taken a heavy toll on them. After having to endure this decades of incompetence (and the loses and destruction from this) they can't one day wake up, forget the past and march out innumberable armies. Because all this decades of incompetence have broken their ability to bring forth such armies. Yes, the only suffered these decades of incompetence because it was the current TSR policy that evil has to be incompetetn. Yet this novels and supplements were written nonetheless and the damage is done. And if they want to advance the setting in a feasible way they can't just ignore it. They might love to play with the Zhents, but the people playing with the Zhents before them have smashed them and now they're broken. |
| Rauric07-22-07, 08:21 AM | Also note, as to the "good guy NPCs": Khelben was LN, Halaster was CN, and the Simbul is CN... To me there still good guys. They just do whatever it takes. Except for Halaster. He was just friggin nuts. I liked Khelben best because he ticked off all of the Harpers with his dealing with evil folk. As I got older I like the morally ambiguous heros better. |
| Rauric07-22-07, 08:28 AM | Because they don't have the manpower to transfer it through the portals and they don't have the manpower to enslave enough manpower to sent them through the portals. It's also completly unrealistic and that spoils me of any satisfaction that a human army kicking the ### out of an elven army would normally give me. You say it: They were portrayed as less than competent for decades and this should have taken a heavy toll on them. After having to endure this decades of incompetence (and the loses and destruction from this) they can't one day wake up, forget the past and march out innumberable armies. Because all this decades of incompetence have broken their ability to bring forth such armies. Yes, the only suffered these decades of incompetence because it was the current TSR policy that evil has to be incompetetn. Yet this novels and supplements were written nonetheless and the damage is done. And if they want to advance the setting in a feasible way they can't just ignore it. They might love to play with the Zhents, but the people playing with the Zhents before them have smashed them and now they're broken. No there not, if you just ignore the adventure. I stopped looking at these boards alot a while back because of people that take the FR history too seriously. I used to be a FR junkie purist, then I decided to just have fun and go with the flow if it made the game better for my players. I still have not read this adventure though so I cannot say if it truley is not crap. If it does show the Zhents as compentent though, so what? Under WOTC they are now under a Theocracy, not a Magocracy. Fzoul has inspired new greatness into his people. He has gotten the Zhents to take over all the Moonseas. So now with these regions under his rule, he can conscript many more people into service. He can even tell the lords of those regions to supply him troops and supplies. So there sudden compentence and new manpower isn't so odd.;) |
| milotinous07-22-07, 08:57 AM | I don't have the 2nd book yet, but I appreciate the fact that the writers can destroy a major landmark of the gameworld (and the home of it's most powerful character) without some mighty NPC saving the day. Player's need to know that they are the most important feature of the game. Anyway, the Great Tuigan Conquest of 4th edition will change everything :P |
| Demetrios07-22-07, 06:18 PM | I like it when people come up with creative solutions to what could be perceived as potential flaws in products. In a world such as the Realms, all manner of things are possible, after all - and a lot of people on this thread are coming up with some very creative ideas to answer the points that are being brought up. It's a lot more interesting to read than the boring "it's impossible!" line of thinking... |
| Mr_Miscellany07-23-07, 01:14 AM | It's also completly unrealistic and that spoils me of any satisfaction that a human army kicking the ### out of an elven army would normally give me. Mirtek, I'm sorry you feel disappointed (honest!), but with respect, you've always been something of a literalist. I'd ask you to step back and try something else for a change: Think of 2nd Edition products as flawed. That is, they're good, but not entirely correct when it comes to showing who and what the Zhents are. After having to endure this decades of incompetence (and the loses and destruction from this) they can't one day wake up, forget the past and march out innumerable armies. Why not? Why can't those Zhent leaders and faithful of Bane who have survived failure, defeat, collateral damage from deicide and deific conflict, as well as subjugation by another faith (Cyric's) find tremendous inspiration in the rebirth and resurgence of Bane? Why can't they take what must be awesome hate, anger and regret at their failures of old and turn that towards what must be an equal desire to serve Bane and prosper by the path of the Tyrant? Why wouldn't they be able to take their knowledge of what was done wrong and apply it so the same mistakes aren't made? How does it not follow that Bane is pouring his own divine power into the resurgence of his faith, and by extension the merchant/criminal network that undergirds it in the north? Yet this novels and supplements were written nonetheless and the damage is done. ... And if they want to advance the setting in a feasible way they can't just ignore it. Yes, they can. Continuity is never so important that it should trump showing the Realms as the Realms ought to be shown, if the source of that continuity is flawed. WotC has already shown enough smarts by revising the Cosmology so that it actually fits the Realms, it only makes sense for them to go back to the staple villanous NPCs and organizations and revise them as well. In closing I respect your point of view. I know a lot of folks around here who put continuity before abosulutely all other considerations. But, from my point of view, that take on things is tantamount to a stranglehold on the Realms. I think if you loosen up a bit, the loss of suspension of disbelief in the fantasy (;)) setting will not happen so much. :) |
| Mirtek07-23-07, 12:09 PM | If it does show the Zhents as compentent though, so what? The leaders can suddenly wake up and fell competent all they like. But unless there's also a majopr true ressurection spell capable of raising all those soldiers they lost during their former incompetence, they will be competent generals without armies. So now with these regions under his rule, he can conscript many more people into service. He can even tell the lords of those regions to supply him troops and supplies. So there sudden compentence and new manpower isn't so odd.;) Since all these possible recruits have either been slaughtered during the "age of incompetence" or the remaining zhentish manpower is not enough to force all the possible recruits who still remain into service. Why can't those Zhent leaders and faithful of Bane who have survived failure, defeat, collateral damage from deicide and deific conflict, as well as subjugation by another faith (Cyric's) find tremendous inspiration in the rebirth and resurgence of Bane? So they're inspired generals without soldiers. Continuity is never so important that it should trump showing the Realms as the Realms ought to be shown, if the source of that continuity is flawed. So if the next designer has an idea for an incredible cool adventure which unfortunately requires that all humans on Toril have gills and have always had them, they should just write it this way. And if the author after that has just as cool an adventure which requires that all elves are 15 feet tall (and always have been) they should just release it as well. But, from my point of view, that take on things is tantamount to a stranglehold on the Realms. Because they can't just do anything without regard of the past? They could and should development an interesting future from the foundation the past gives them. The Zhents suffered a lot just prior to 1372 DR so they should not be able to launch any significant assaults until 1382 DR or so. There are a lot of interesting stories to tell between 1372 DR and 1382 DR without just ignoring the past with a contrived revitalizing of the Zhents. |
| Ioulaum07-23-07, 12:20 PM | Continuity is never so important that it should trump showing the Realms as the Realms ought to be shown, if the source of that continuity is flawed. Continuity is the main reason i like FR so much. I started out a DL fan and i gave up on DL when the products keep contradicting itself as soon as something new came out. It was never ending stream of what the hell, that didn't happen and when did that happen. Nothing ticks me off as much as buying a source book and then have it invalidate because someone in marketing got a great idea to make more money. |
| Rauric07-23-07, 01:56 PM | I thought that Mulmaster and Hillsfar were recent conquests. That is where I assumed they are pulling soldiers from. Plus in the last several years there has been a resurgence of Bane worship (since his rebirth) so I would think that many of his followers from all over Faerun might flock to Zhentil Keep, a virtual mecca of his worship. There are actually many ways to replenish a fighting force in a fantasy world I would think. Heh, they could have been gating in groups with promises of wealth and power in Banes name the last few years. Maybe some of those forces are humanoid tribes that were forced into the army. You guys are being a little too literal or shortsighted here. If these things were not detailed it is probably because most gaming groups really do not need to know how the Zhents are doing what they are doing, only that they have an army now and are attacking the Dales. This might be old news to you but there alot of new gamers that do not own 2nd addition stuff and do not know all of the Realms past. |
| Stigger07-23-07, 03:09 PM | Why would anyone trust them after all the failure though? Hell, its not like they haven't made the same promises before, not like they haven't made the same threats, not like they haven't had the same short term successes before... they just choke soon afterwards. They would likely have just about zero credibility in my book... sure they make for great enemies, but rather than retcon them into competancy I'd rather just have them destroyed and then have some new hidden threat introduced... at least that would be my ideal scenario. |
| Faraer07-23-07, 03:22 PM | The Zhent incompetence thing is being greatly overstated here -- it's turning into Chinese whispers. They haven't succeeded in their long-term goals, and have often been defeated -- just like almost every other organization in Faerūn. While the rate of major upheavals and events has passed out of believability, including the speed at which certain parties regenerate, I don't mind this instance particularly because -- quite properly -- we don't have enough information to judge certainly what the Zhents can or can't do. While Realmslore, with proper creative interpretation, has to sometimes indicate and constrain events for the world to be consistent and not arbitrary, I don't think it's to anyone's benefit if made-up population numbers are used so literally. |
| ClobberinTime07-23-07, 04:14 PM | According to the 3e FRCS the Keep's army normally numbers 2.000 men (and this is awfully lot for a city with a 14k population), while the 2e sources give the number as 3,000 (at this time the city was supposed to house a 80k population). I guess what I don't understand then is why you would infer that those are the only troops they had. If I told you the US had 160,000 troops in Iraq, would you assume then that those are the sum total of all of US troops everywhere? |
| msatran07-23-07, 04:43 PM | Well, regardless of the actual number of troops, the Zhentish presence in Shadowdale still reeks of incompetence. If you consider that there's that many troops, consider how many support personnel you will need to run that many troops. This is where Red Hand of Doom falls down, and it's where this falls down too. At least the Zhents didn't make the mistake the Red Hand army made, of bringing hungry Greenspawn Razorfiends with them. There's a situation that involves resource consumption. LIterally. |
| GothicDan07-23-07, 07:04 PM | Continuity is never so important that it should trump showing the Realms as the Realms ought to be shown, if the source of that continuity is flawed. That's a good sentiment, actually. However, there's little to no instances of newer products actually fixing older continuity issues besides a bit of geography shuffling. |
| Rauric07-23-07, 09:31 PM | Well, regardless of the actual number of troops, the Zhentish presence in Shadowdale still reeks of incompetence. If you consider that there's that many troops, consider how many support personnel you will need to run that many troops. This is where Red Hand of Doom falls down, and it's where this falls down too. At least the Zhents didn't make the mistake the Red Hand army made, of bringing hungry Greenspawn Razorfiends with them. There's a situation that involves resource consumption. LIterally. This is a RPG and most gamers don't really care about how a fantasy army can sustain itself. The gamers that do (IMO) are probably a small extent. It is a break from reality most of us want, a chance to beat back the enemy or do something else incredible and extarordinary that we can never do in the real world. Lots of things in RPGs don't make sense. |
| ClobberinTime07-23-07, 09:46 PM | Well, regardless of the actual number of troops, the Zhentish presence in Shadowdale still reeks of incompetence. If you consider that there's that many troops, consider how many support personnel you will need to run that many troops. This is where Red Hand of Doom falls down, and it's where this falls down too. At least the Zhents didn't make the mistake the Red Hand army made, of bringing hungry Greenspawn Razorfiends with them. There's a situation that involves resource consumption. LIterally. But also you are putting a modern slant on a fantasy army, medievel and ancient armies weren't so 1-1 supply to frontline soldier oriented. Except for the Romans almost every medievel and or ancient army lived off the land and had almost no support personnel. That is unless you count the camp followers as 'support staff' |
| msatran07-23-07, 10:29 PM | The problem is that the Greenspawn Razorfiends eat ANYTHING. And that includes members of it's own army! Who marches an army forward with creatures in it that are motivated to eat one's own troops? |
| Rauric07-23-07, 11:58 PM | The problem is that the Greenspawn Razorfiends eat ANYTHING. And that includes members of it's own army! Who marches an army forward with creatures in it that are motivated to eat one's own troops? I guess an evil one committed to Tiamat's cause?:) |
| msatran07-24-07, 01:52 AM | Yeah, but I'm not a fan of assuming logistics. My players, when faced with a situation like this, will target supply lines, attack soft targets, and try to do things like force the army to withdraw from lack of food. I know you guys would probably choose a more epic, heroic course, but my players would probably not just stand there and play the scenario out. |
| Krash07-24-07, 06:52 AM | That's a good sentiment, actually. However, there's little to no instances of newer products actually fixing older continuity issues besides a bit of geography shuffling. What older continuity issues?:confused: -- George Krashos |
| GothicDan07-24-07, 07:33 AM | I didn't point out any. It was Mr. Miscellany who inferred that there were older continuity issues (or continuity issues based on initially flawed lore) in previous editions, which 3E products have supposedly (or are supposedly) fixing. |
| Ioulaum07-24-07, 01:09 PM | Yeah, but I'm not a fan of assuming logistics. My players, when faced with a situation like this, will target supply lines, attack soft targets, and try to do things like force the army to withdraw from lack of food. I know you guys would probably choose a more epic, heroic course, but my players would probably not just stand there and play the scenario out. That is my type of thinking. Facing a army head on is absolutely at the bottom of my to do list. - Attack supply lines. - poison the supplies - Get some druids to sent in swarms of insects and lizards and frogs. - poison the water - divert underground water upward to turn the roads into mud - Keep the pressure with constant small ambushes. Picking off stragglers and advance scouts. Just generally make life hell for the invading army. A invading army that is sleeping in tents crawling with lizards. Food that has more insects in then real food, sloshing through mud and unless you are going to the latrine with a t least a dozen you are not likely to comeback will take any army to the breaking point. |
| Asgetrion07-24-07, 03:28 PM | I didn't point out any. It was Mr. Miscellany who inferred that there were older continuity issues (or continuity issues based on initially flawed lore) in previous editions, which 3E products have supposedly (or are supposedly) fixing. Hmmm... I thought Krash, Steven (Schend) and Eric (Boyd) did a pretty good job in patching the FR continuity, which was riddled with holes you could drive the Spelljammer through! (which, I guess, was due to so many TSR freelancers never checking up on existing lore as they were churning out "new cool stuff") :) |
| SlanderPanic07-24-07, 03:56 PM | I don't know about anyone else, but something mighty enough to send Elminster running (and ballsy enough to risk ticking off Mystra in the process) would have me worried. |
| Asgetrion07-24-07, 05:09 PM | I was kind of wondering if any other DM was thinking of involving Volumvax (the half-fiend divine servant of Shar) as the "source" of this assault on Elminster's tower (possibly even being used by Shar as "the muscle" to bring down Elminster)... it would explain why Elminster or his formidable wards could not prevent the theft or repel the assault. |
| Mirtek07-24-07, 06:28 PM | I guess what I don't understand then is why you would infer that those are the only troops they had. What I don't understand is why you don't understand that the military capabilities of the Zhents are detailed in variors supplements. The 2,000 standing army is the largest one they have, followed by Darkhold and the Citadel and these three big bases make for the vast majority of all zhentish military power. They do have many smaller garrisons scattered here and there, but all of those together make maybe half as much as gathered in one of the big 3. If I told you the US had 160,000 troops in Iraq, would you assume then that those are the sum total of all of US troops everywhere? The USA are a good example: How many soldiers do they have (all different forces like army + marines + national guard + whatever together)? 1.6 million? 2 million? Something like that (I only have an old book of the armies of the world which says 1.6 million, but it's about 10 years old). So let's just make it 3 million, that would still be 3 million out of 300,000,000 inhabitants! The Zhents have 2k out of 14k just in ZK (their total standing army may be something like 10k out of 25k) that's an awful lot. And in both cases (USA and Zhents) that's not just the actual combat troops, but the total number of military personal. A lot of these 10k will be supporting units and not actual front line units. Heh, they could have been gating in groups with promises of wealth and power in Banes name the last few years. And all those forces were gathered into a nice new zhentish army that marched on Shadowdale and was almost completly annihilated in the battle and during an ill-fated retreat. So were are all those fools listening to the promises of glory, fame, and money to form the second army for the second invasion attempt? Especially against the same target that just broke the previous army a few month ago? And were did they get all those fools listening to their promises to join the first army anyway, as this "first" army was only the latest in a long lost of annihilated Zhent armies? Eventually they should run out of people stupid enough to listen to them (and what happens to armies composed of people that were stupid enough to still believe them may be one of the reasons why there armies are defeated time and again) |
| ericlboyd07-24-07, 07:37 PM | I was kind of wondering if any other DM was thinking of involving Volumvax (the half-fiend divine servant of Shar) as the "source" of this assault on Elminster's tower (possibly even being used by Shar as "the muscle" to bring down Elminster)... it would explain why Elminster or his formidable wards could not prevent the theft or repel the assault. Interesting thought. I had that idea as well but decided to keep this book more standalone. Nothing to prevent a DM from going that way though ... --Eric |
| Asgetrion07-24-07, 08:28 PM | Interesting thought. I had that idea as well but decided to keep this book more standalone. Nothing to prevent a DM from going that way though ... --Eric Thanks, Eric! I took a brief look at the module today at my local gaming store, and I was very impressed by it! :) You guys really put some good ideas into it (and the maps were very good, too!) although I find Shar (and Sharrans) as a bit...hmmm... overused villains these days. I was also toying with the idea that I would replace Shar with Moander (who would somehow corrupt the Weave near Shadowdale, siphoning off power to ascend to divinity once again). KnightErrant suggested (on Candlekeep) that Malkizid would wander through portals corrupted by Moander's power, and become Its minion in the process... thus, it also might have been this greatly weakened fallen Solar that assaulted and defeated Elminster, and somehow succeeded in planting a "Seed of Corruption" within the Weave locally? I was already planning to use Eldreth Veluuthra as Moander's unwitting followers (Moander would have appeared to some of them in Dark Watch as a High Mage of Tsornyl and claimed to have "absorbed" the energies of the High Magic Ritual that was used to banish the Creeping Evil, becoming a quasi-deity of the Seldarine in the process). Thus, EV would now have a Divine Patron that instructs them to manipulate the Zhentarim to conquer Shadowdale and take the blame (in the public eye) for it. Do you think it would work? Would you think that Moander would be capable of pulling this off - especially corrupting the Weave without Mystra or Azuth finding out what is truly happening? Another question: how do you think the elves of Myth Drannor would view Eldreth Veluuthra (in the current political situation) - as potential (and influential) allies, or extremist kinsmen that they'd rather not associate themselves with? |
| Rauric07-25-07, 01:28 AM | They have to use the Sharrans now buddy. After Mask gets done with them all they really won't be in any position to do any type of hijinks like this for quite some time ;) . |
| Demetrios07-25-07, 03:26 AM | The 2,000 standing army is the largest one they have, followed by Darkhold and the Citadel and these three big bases make for the vast majority of all zhentish military power. What about Mintar? Heck, Mintar's bigger than Zhentil Keep - half again as large. And Mulmaster is bigger than both put together. Yeah, it's technically not a Zhent city, but it's closely allied, and you can't discount it from this discussion... |
| ericlboyd07-25-07, 07:02 AM | Thanks, Eric! I took a brief look at the module today at my local gaming store, and I was very impressed by it! :) You guys really put some good ideas into it (and the maps were very good, too!) although I find Shar (and Sharrans) as a bit...hmmm... overused villains these days. I was also toying with the idea that I would replace Shar with Moander (who would somehow corrupt the Weave near Shadowdale, siphoning off power to ascend to divinity once again). KnightErrant suggested (on Candlekeep) that Malkizid would wander through portals corrupted by Moander's power, and become Its minion in the process... thus, it also might have been this greatly weakened fallen Solar that assaulted and defeated Elminster, and somehow succeeded in planting a "Seed of Corruption" within the Weave locally? I was already planning to use Eldreth Veluuthra as Moander's unwitting followers (Moander would have appeared to some of them in Dark Watch as a High Mage of Tsornyl and claimed to have "absorbed" the energies of the High Magic Ritual that was used to banish the Creeping Evil, becoming a quasi-deity of the Seldarine in the process). Thus, EV would now have a Divine Patron that instructs them to manipulate the Zhentarim to conquer Shadowdale and take the blame (in the public eye) for it. Do you think it would work? Would you think that Moander would be capable of pulling this off - especially corrupting the Weave without Mystra or Azuth finding out what is truly happening? Another question: how do you think the elves of Myth Drannor would view Eldreth Veluuthra (in the current political situation) - as potential (and influential) allies, or extremist kinsmen that they'd rather not associate themselves with? Sure, if it works for you, it's a reasonable storyline. I guess part of the decision is how much work you want to do to adapt this adventure and whether you want to run the last adventure (Anauroch). I think your ideas will work fine for this adventure, but you'll have a harder time adapting the next adventure. --Eric --Eric |
| Asgetrion07-25-07, 08:12 AM | Sure, if it works for you, it's a reasonable storyline. I guess part of the decision is how much work you want to do to adapt this adventure and whether you want to run the last adventure (Anauroch). I think your ideas will work fine for this adventure, but you'll have a harder time adapting the next adventure. --Eric --Eric You would not, by any chance, reveal some details about Anauroch? I won't tell anyone, I promise! ;) :D A question: would you find it possible that Alokkair would knowingly ally himself with Moander and Its cultists - or even the "possessed" members of the Eldreth Veluuthra? (in the case I choose to swap Shar with Moander in this adventure) Another question: will there ever be any official "follow-up" on the story seed "Moander rises from the Rot" that was published in Power of Faerūn? |
| ericlboyd07-25-07, 08:43 AM | You would not, by any chance, reveal some details about Anauroch? I won't tell anyone, I promise! ;) :D Sorry. ;-) A question: would you find it possible that Alokkair would knowingly ally himself with Moander and Its cultists - or even the "possessed" members of the Eldreth Veluuthra? (in the case I choose to swap Shar with Moander in this adventure) Sure. That's just as reasonable as the story we included herein. All we knew about Alokkair before this adventure was found in Lords of Darkness [1e]. Another question: will there ever be any official "follow-up" on the story seed "Moander rises from the Rot" that was published in Power of Faerūn? Never say never, but nothing is planned AFAIK. --Eric |
| Rauric07-25-07, 08:45 AM | Will the next adventure have any effect on Paul Kemps novels coming out about the Shadow War? |
| ericlboyd07-25-07, 11:47 AM | The adventures are designed to be consistent with but independent of Paul Kemp's current trilogy and Lisa Smedman's current trilogy. You don't need in anyway to read any of them to enjoy any of the others, but, of course, I recommend that you do. ;-) I would recommend the Dragon #354 article I wrote to see "what's going on in the neighborhood of Shadowdale during the adventure." --Eric |
| ClobberinTime07-25-07, 06:55 PM | The USA are a good example: How many soldiers do they have (all different forces like army + marines + national guard + whatever together)? 1.6 million? 2 million? Something like that (I only have an old book of the armies of the world which says 1.6 million, but it's about 10 years old). So let's just make it 3 million, that would still be 3 million out of 300,000,000 inhabitants!! The Zhents have 2k out of 14k just in ZK (their total standing army may be something like 10k out of 25k) that's an awful lot. Here is how I figured out my number, Lets assume the population of Zhentil Keep the city is 20,000, according to the FRCS the population of the area controlled by Zhentil Keep is 200,000. According to the DMG the total number of warriors amongst 200,000 people is 10,000. Most countries won't have all of the available warriors working for the government but Zhentil Keep probably will. Plus too many of your sources are old, the FRCS lists Darkhold at 800 troops, Citadel of the Raven is 1500-1800, Zhentil Keep itself = Who knows how many now, never been listed. I think that your intuitions about how many troops Zhentil Keep might or Might not have been able to recruit are way off, probably because you don't realize that army strengths (at least on earth) go up and down. For instance Hannibals army in the 2nd punic war was a Carthaginian army containing almost no Carthaginians. Armies like the Zhents run on gold, and with a portal network and the Church of Bane they could have upwards of tens and tens of troops. |
| Ioulaum07-25-07, 07:01 PM | Here is how I figured out my number, Lets assume the population of Zhentil Keep the city is 20,000, according to the FRCS the population of the area controlled by Zhentil Keep is 200,000. According to the DMG the total number of warriors amongst 200,000 people is 10,000. Most countries won't have all of the available warriors working for the government but Zhentil Keep probably will. Plus too many of your sources are old, the FRCS lists Darkhold at 800 troops, Citadel of the Raven is 1500-1800, Zhentil Keep itself = Who knows how many now, never been listed. I think that your intuitions about how many troops Zhentil Keep might or Might not have been able to recruit are way off, probably because you don't realize that army strengths (at least on earth) go up and down. For instance Hannibals army in the 2nd punic war was a Carthaginian army containing almost no Carthaginians. Armies like the Zhents run on gold, and with a portal network and the Church of Bane they could have upwards of 1 to 2 million troops. Now i think you are going overboard. The enitre country of Comyr doesn't have 1 million people and you are saying the Zhents+church of bane has army bigger then the pop of a entire country? 1-2 mil would have made the Zhents the master of Faerun long time ago. Not even the orc can muster a hoard this big. |
| sillaric_culdanin07-26-07, 02:37 AM | Possible Adventure Plot Spoiler: . . . . . . . . . . . I'm not entirely sure if this has been brought up before, but the Zhent army that 'occupies' Shadowdale numbers only 1,000 troops and three quarters of those are mercs, orcs and goblins. The Army that Scyllua commands numbers only 3000, including the Brigade she left in Shadowdale. I think its fair to assume to that her whole Army of Darkhope contains less than 1,000 actual zhentilar. |
| Mirtek07-29-07, 12:10 PM | What about Mintar? Heck, Mintar's bigger than Zhentil Keep - half again as large. And Mulmaster is bigger than both put together. Yeah, it's technically not a Zhent city, but it's closely allied, and you can't discount it from this discussion... I think that the acquisition of Mulmaster was the main reason they were able to start the first (failed) assault on Shadowdale. But even with this, after the desaster there they should not be able to just pull enough troops out from under their mattress to launch a second invasion so shortly thereafter Plus too many of your sources are old, the FRCS lists Darkhold at 800 troops, Citadel of the Raven is 1500-1800, Zhentil Keep itself = Who knows how many now, never been listed. So they now have even less than in the old sources. Also the standing forces of ZK are listed in the FRCS, they're 2,000 strong. So even if the Zhents manage to double their usual stading forces in times of war, they will fall far short of 20k (and that's without the loses of the first failed attempt to size Shadowdale) I think that your intuitions about how many troops Zhentil Keep might or Might not have been able to recruit are way off, probably because you don't realize that army strengths (at least on earth) go up and down. And if you lose one war after annother, they tend to go down, down, down, down, .... |
| Rauric07-31-07, 12:32 AM | How many Zhents died in the last attempt on Shadowdale? |