Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crust 11-03-03, 02:53 PM	I teach English 10 and American Literature online. The kids are all homeschooled, and they're great kids. I'm very happy with my job. Unfortunately, being that I can't see the kids, I don't see who else is watching. This is an e-mail sent to me by my supervisor, the "principal" of the cyber school. I left out names for obvious reasons: I have gotten a request from a parent about the origin of your IM, the profile, and away messages that pop up when you have stepped away from the computer. I don't want to overstep my boundaries into your personal interests, but I am understanding based on your IM name that you have interests in the Lord of the Rings and Dungeon and Dragons possibly. I honestly don't have a problem with you having that IM for staff only, but once students have access to it, contact you with it and get the same away messages it may be disturbing to the population of students that are devout Muslim, Jewish, strict Christian, Jehovah Witness and the like. Would you mind switching to a more generic IM for staff contacts with us and students. Students are not to be using IM on our machines and I know they are getting around that by putting it on their personal machine; which is perfectly fine with parental consent. I just know that we need to try to keep these areas of controversial nature out of the class and IM... Please do not take offensive to this. I'm just trying to avoid a conflict waiting to happen. Hmph... :mymy: I should have see that coming.
Masakado 11-03-03, 03:06 PM	Wow, Crust. :( I'm sorry to hear about this, but can understand the principal's point of view, & can respect his desire to head off future trouble at the pass. Education can be a tricky field to work in. D&D can be a touchy subject as it is hobbyfied, but I don't see how LoTR should fit into the equation since it is literature & should be no more offensive than Le Morté D'Arthur or Bullfinch's Mythology.
Masakado 11-03-03, 03:07 PM	Query: Was the principal's D&D statement blanket, or did he give examples of what he felt could be considered offensive? Existance of books like the BoVD won't work into your favor :rolleyes: , but I was under the impression that D&D has managed to shrug off the "Dark Dungeons / I Killed Black Leaf" persona that it had many years ago.
ENHenry 11-03-03, 03:21 PM	Originally posted by Masakado ...but I was under the impression that D&D has managed to shrug off the "Dark Dungeons / I Killed Black Leaf" persona that it had many years ago. Yes... and no. It has become divorced from that image by the majority, but this is the world of home-schooling we are discussing. People leave the public school system for many reasons, but a prominent one is to promote more conservative values in a home environment, as well as improving the quality of their child's educational experience, which many school systems are hard-pressed to provide given limited resources and having to follow certain government strictures. So the environment Crust is working in may possibly have a larger circle of parents who do not feel that Medieval Fantasy elements may be appropriate for their children. If so, I respect the principal's wishes for trying to curtail any problems before they possibly arise. On the other hand, I also wish more parents fully understood the benefits of Fantasy Role-play on young children, and the benefits of it as an avenue in which parents can constructively interact with their children of ANY age, and not have a "forced" feel to it.
kgiggles 11-03-03, 04:13 PM	...this world gets more and more ridiculous everyday. We got yahoos killing each other everyday for wahtever reasons, and we`re still worried about the "little" things that do not contribute to the craziness of the world. You`d think that we`d all be mass murderers by now between D&D and videogames. Sheesh..............:mad: In my opinion one of the worst things we have is actually religion, now I`m not saying there`s anything wrong with your beliefs it`s just when people try and push them on you or kill in the name of "god", god being generic for whatever you believe in. Ignorance sucks
Masakado 11-03-03, 05:17 PM	Originally posted by kgiggles In my opinion one of the worst things we have is actually religion, now I`m not saying there`s anything wrong with your beliefs it`s just when people try and push them on you or kill in the name of "god", god being generic for whatever you believe in. I'm not so sure this applies in this case. The principal has no problems with Crust's beliefs or choice of hobby. He's just warning Crust that some parent may not be as accomodating of his beliefs or hobbies. Given Crust's profession, this could be potentially volatile. Yes, ignorance is sad, but so is unemployment if some parent gets ultra-rowdy, raises a huge stink about Crust's choice of gameage, & gets Crust fired.
Triton 11-03-03, 05:50 PM	We live in a society where we are constintly looking for what made us do things. We sue a doctor for not knowing what we are allergic to even if we didn't know. We blame music and games for any violent tendencies we have, not the lack of care for the ramafications. Blame Eminem for swearing, Mortal Combat for violent tendencies, and role-playing games for anti-social behavior. We fail to say as a society that *%!@ happens and that we are accountable for how we deal with the world. We need to answer for how we live our lives, and live lies how we know we should. Until then we lower the volume on your music, avoid violent games, and don't read or act out fictional events. You might offend someone. Not everyone out there understands that this is just a game.
Dargoth 11-03-03, 07:15 PM	*chuckle* It always makes me laugh that people imbrace religion in order to protect themselves from "Anti Social" behaviour...... Religion gave us the Crusades, The Spanish inquisition, September 11 and Child molesting If you want to avoid anti social behaviour stay away from Religion But then again maybe the Crusades where started by a D&D campaign that got out of hand :rolleyes:
TinySilverChalice 11-03-03, 07:55 PM	I'm kind of curious what exactly was being referenced in your IM. I take it you weren't making a very obscure reference. I think the problem isn't religion. I have religion. I also have imagination. You'd think people who worship a single god with many factions or faces (The Christian Holy Trinity for example) would have less of a problem wrapping themselves intellectually around the idea of duality. There is a real world. There is also (several) fantasy worlds. The ability to seperate the two and keep them as such is a skill both gamers and non-gamers should recognize as essential. Separating these co-existing "realities" keeps religious persons from objecting, keeps players from meta-gaming, and keeps Blackleaf alive (Sorry, couldn't resist). Duality is a beautiful thing, and cleaving the space between RL and FR is as exciting as immersing oneself wholely into either solely. Consider that a skill you should teach well, Crust. :D Fight the man... or get your paycheck. Your call. ;)
kgiggles 11-03-03, 08:40 PM	...to offend anyone about the religion thing. My grandmother and mother are both Sunday school teachers. I was trying to come up with something that really can lead to some craziness. Maybe I should have said people`s beliefs and not religion. I did a bad job at trying to explain my feelings. I would like to apologize to anyone I offended. I was trying to simply state that we tend to blame the little things for our "big" actions/reactions.....I can only hope that my child will embrace D&D just like I did. I just find it amazing that D&D still has this stigma. And you can`t tell me that D&D leads to anti-social behaviour and home shooling doesn`t, how are kids supposed to learn social skills at home......Good luck with the job it does sound very interesting and fullfilling. Once again I would like to apologize if I offended you. Keith:)
Crust 11-03-03, 09:04 PM	If you must know, my screen name was Glamdring493, as is shown in my profile. My AIM profile consisted of a quote from The Fellowship of the Ring (the scene at the bridge), combined with a link displaying Gandalf wielding Glamdring aloft before the Balrog to sort of let people know what a "Glamdring" is should they view my profile. I was quite proud of it, actually. Many of my home schooled kids are very religious. During a discussion concerning nonfiction texts, I asked for the students to give me examples of nonfiction pieces. I was expecting some of the responses. "Newspaper, autobiography, text books..." One of the students said, "The Bible." I dodged the issue. I understand where my principal is coming from. Some people are just... odd. I can accept that. I can deal with that. I don't feel like I'm losing integrity with the name change. Of course it's rediculous that something as benign as Dungeons and Dragons (and something as beloved as the Ring books) should give a parent cause for worry. Like I said, some people are just odd. This goes way back to the time I was 14 and my buddy's mother sprayed our gaming table with holy water because we were playing D&D. When folks don't get it, they don't get it. :looloo:
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 11-03-03, 09:48 PM	Dungeons & Dragons was attacked by ignorance in the 70s and 80s (please correct me if I am wrong, I've only a recent d20 convert :D), it seems to me not a lot has changed... :( :weep: :weep: :weep: :(
Desies 11-04-03, 12:27 AM	I have also encountered a similar situation in a school setting. Around Christmas time last year, my school (a public school) was playing Christmas music over the intercom. My mom, being a teacher at my previous school, was in the office and I jokingly made a remark: something like "it's kind of risky to be playing Christmas music in school." I had also recently started up a DnD club within the school that met every so often. One of the ignorant secritaries (who had no idea that I had anything to do with the club and had no idea my mom was who she was) said in an irritating tone "Well if we can have a Dungeons and Dragons club then we can play Christian music." This made me pretty furious, I said "What does DND have to do with religion?" She said "It is Satanic and has no place in school!" I responded the only way I know how "YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!" and stormed away. Later that week I was notified that the DND club could be no more. When I went and talked to the principle (an old family friend) he said that DND was too tied to religion to allow as school sponsered. I still didn't understand how DND and religion were related however my argument was a little more prepared. We also had a Bible Believers club. When I brought up this club he responded with only "That's different." I haven't talked to him since!
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 11-04-03, 12:35 AM	*shakes head in disgust* Ignorance more often than not perpetuates these remarks.
Yokinobu 11-04-03, 01:41 AM	I've experienced similair circumstances. It's more often than not older individuals that condemn DnD, types of music, and some other forms of pop culture because they may have heard rumors or because of one bad apple that spoils the bunch. Many people fear what they do not understand...this is a perfect example of such. I myself am a deeply religious Christian, and a good friend of mine is very religious as well(if you ever want to debate religion with me, private message me). People don't seem to understand that DnD has nothing to do with religion. Only someone who is mentally ill would forsake their religion so that they could try to worship Bane in real life. If some people opened their eyes instead of closing them and seeing in their head only what the want to see or what the expect to find, than they might not be so prejudice. But that's like asking for world peace...in fact, it is.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-04-03, 02:22 AM	Well, I've never experienced much in the way of some of these stories here. I guess I'm fortunate perhaps. And yeah, there's nothing about religion in DnD except in the minds of the ignorant. But you have to live with ignorant people when you deal with any subject. I deal with it in my own profession. I've had associates receive letters from ultra-left environmentalists rigged with razorblades, just because their research involved animal models. Ignorance isn't just confined to the religious fringe. It festers within most any fringe. :mad: But back to my own DnD experiences. I've actually had a baptist minister, and father of one of my players, express interest in sitting in on one of our sessions one day. A Planescape campaign at that. He's got a physics degree, and he's ex military so I'm hardly worried. There's genuine interest on his part it seems, and if he ever does want to, I'd probably allow it. Good press, and being able to properly educate folks on my favorite hobby is never an opportunity to be missed. And perhaps as an utter aside, I consider myself to be a Christian. Raised a mixture of initially Russian Orthodox and then later Presbyterian. (long story, don't ask, as silly as it sounds)
Dargoth 11-04-03, 02:40 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu Only someone who is mentally ill would forsake their religion so that they could try to worship Bane in real life. I resent that! :D
Triton 11-04-03, 08:29 AM	People tend to think that if you read or play D&D that you are satanic. It all gets looped with weegie boards, some metal music, and other fantasy games. They think we meet in caves and really think that we are worshipping Mystra or Bane and are really oing to start to manifest the powers. I know this is not true. I go to church on Sundays, live life the way I think God wants me to, and treat others the way I want to be treated. But I think we all have heard or know of someone who does take the game to far. Nonplayers just don't realize that these people are not even 1% of us. Just as David Curesh is not the typical christian.
Masakado 11-04-03, 09:28 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth Religion gave us the Crusades, The Spanish inquisition, September 11 and Child molesting. Rubbish. Power mongers dressed as Catholics & pushing their own agenda gave us the Crusades & The Spanish Inquisition. Fanatics using Islam as an excuse gave us September 11th. Last time I checked, child molestation was not a uniquely religious problem. Religion is no more responsible for the above evils than Ozzy Osbourne is responsible for teen suicide, or Quake III is responsible for violent behavior. If we're going to dispense with scapegoats, we may as well dispense with all of them.
Corthan 11-04-03, 10:19 AM	Religion and D&D have no common bond. My proof is this. I myself am on the fence as to what religion I should choose. My brother however, has turned completely Pagean(sorry if spelled wrong) which is the complete opposite to our Baptist upbringing. We play D&D with a devout christian, a celtic druid, a self-proclaimed witch and afew Christians, butnot so strict. Have been known to play with Lutherans, Catholics, and methodists. As well as Jewish and Muslim people. Talk about diversity. I agree with the person who tried to start a club in school. People in general are idiots and anything that goes against there beliefs is wrong and should be banished. That is why I love the Constitution. Freedom of Speech and Religion are the greatest things in that document.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-04-03, 10:38 AM	Originally posted by Corthan That is why I love the Constitution. Freedom of Speech and Religion are the greatest things in that document. Nitpick: technically they're not in the Constitution, they're in the Bill of Rights. And I'd argue the 2nd amendment is better since it's what hedges against the power of overreaching power on the federal level. Not trying to hijack the thread, or start a firearms debate...
Corthan 11-04-03, 12:34 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Not trying to hijack the thread, or start a firearms debate... Yeah I guess you are right. Not that I would go pointing out your mistakes or anything......
Zarffyn 11-04-03, 01:48 PM	:teach: Now here's an issue that hits close to home with me. I'm a practicing non-denominational Protestant Christian, which I am not in the least ashamed of. I'm also a practicing D&D player, and in love with the worlds of fantasy. Earlier this year, I faced a internal conflict between my faith and D&D and it took me a while to figure out what was wrong: I was putting more time into D&D than I was my faith, and by the faith that I believe in, that is wrong. Plain and simple, I took some time off from all D&D (to prove to myself that hey, I CAN live without it :)) and after a few weeks, I was ready to get back into the groove, but this time with some limits. That said, having my priorities in line, I'm having the time of my life. I run one game, and play in another, but the rest of my week is so busy I barely have time to think "Dungeons and Dragons." I've been playing on and off since about 14, and taught my siblings and friends how to play. I had heard about the resistance to D&D and I've researched it quite thoroughly. Plain and simple, as many of you probably know, anti-D&D persons say that D&Ders gather together to cast spells, summon demons, etc. The core books apparently tell us HOW to do these things. I'm still looking for these instructions. ;) I've recently discovered that my new stepmother an against D&D. Truely, I've not a problem with it, because I know that I could win any argument. To me, it's as simple as this: Monopoly is a game where the players manipulate, coerce, and sometimes cheat their way into the financial top, by forcing all others out of the game. Now, last time I checked, the Bible said that the root of all evil was money. Doesn't monopoly teach people how to be greedy and materialistic? I've nothing against monopoly, even if I can never manage to win a game of it. But my point is that it's what you BRING into the game, or any game, that matters. And the bottom line? There is a clear line between fantasy and reality. When that line becomes a blur to a person, is when problems occur. And cheers to the US of A, and our natural and fundamental rights! I hope everyone who is able exercised one of those most important rights today, that of the right to vote. :)
MR. T 11-04-03, 02:07 PM	:cough: :cough: law suit :cough: :cough: just kiddin' :) It does such though
Masakado 11-04-03, 02:34 PM	Originally posted by Zarffyn Now, last time I checked, the Bible said that the root of all evil was money.. Actually, it says that the love of money is the root of all evil. ;) 'For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.' -Timothy 6:10 Your example is still a good one, though. Monopoly's ruthless acquisition of wealth in the pursuit of bankrupting your peers is a wonderful lesson to teach to our kids, eh? Few things cause more fights at family reunions than Monopoly and Uno.
Zarffyn 11-04-03, 04:07 PM	Gah, I knew that! -bangs head on keyboard- That's what I get for studying Educational Psychology while typing up a post...:rolleyes:
Dargoth 11-04-03, 08:07 PM	Originally posted by Masakado Rubbish. Power mongers dressed as Catholics & pushing their own agenda gave us the Crusades & The Spanish Inquisition. Fanatics using Islam as an excuse gave us September 11th. Last time I checked, child molestation was not a uniquely religious problem. Religion is no more responsible for the above evils than Ozzy Osbourne is responsible for teen suicide, or Quake III is responsible for violent behavior. If we're going to dispense with scapegoats, we may as well dispense with all of them. Symantics Last time I checked the CEO of ID games didnt command people to go forth and kill people the same can not be said for the various Popes and Mullahs that have afflicted the human race. Your comparision is flawed
Masakado 11-04-03, 08:49 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth Symantics Last time I checked the CEO of ID games didnt command people to go forth and kill people the same can not be said for the various Popes and Mullahs that have afflicted the human race. Your comparision is flawed How so? In both cases an entire institution is being blamed for the evils of the few, or the one. In both cases, such scapegoats should be dispensed with. I don't blame the Catholic Church for the transgressions of a handful of clergymen. I blame the clergymen themselves. So should you... Generals also send people to go forth & kill other people, but I suppose that's okay since it's in their job description, eh? :rolleyes: As far as the CEO's of ID Games go, they don't send you out to kill people, but they sure do offer a nice tutorial with excellent graphics (complete with various weapons of mayhem) on how to do so. :thumbsup:
Dargoth 11-04-03, 09:12 PM	Please provide proof that ID games tells people to kill real people? Because I can find plenty of sources where religions have sanctioned mass murder and Genocide The blaming of ID games isnt valid the blaming of Religion is valid, theres are lots of direct links between genocide and religion Hell Islam was founded by a guy who could best described as a Bandit and thief Mohamad stole land from other countrys making him no better than a 7th century Hitler
Crust 11-04-03, 09:36 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth the blaming of Religion is valid, theres are lots of direct links between genocide and religion Hell Islam was founded by a guy who could best described as a Bandit and thief Mohamad stole land from other countrys making him no better than a 7th century Hitler The above quote is more in favor of what Masakado is trying to say.
Masakado 11-05-03, 12:08 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth Please provide proof that ID games tells people to kill real people? Where did I say that ID sanctioned the murder of real people? All I said was that Quake III Arena teaches you some fine killing reflexes, in case you feel inclined to do so. No flinching at all when you go for a head shot with the Rail Gun. Of course, it's all in good fun when your cyber-victim gets back up again. That never happens in real life. Quake III is arguably one of the best combat simulators that money can buy. ID also has "plausible deniability" on their side. "Just because we taught this kid to aim a gun with pinpoint accuracy & awarded him bonus points for headshots doesn't mean that we're responsible if the kid takes his new found skills to the streets." Originally posted by Dargoth the blaming of Religion is valid. Please. Why is it that when a sociopath goes ape & kills someone, no one has a problem blaming the sociopath as a person. No one buys his "society forced me to do this" argument if he has one. But put the sociopath in a priest's outfit & have him say something crazy like "God wanted those people dead," & all of a sudden folks have no problem blaming religious beliefs for murderous behavior. Originally posted by Dargoth theres are lots of direct links between genocide and religion Lots of direct links between guns & genocide as well. But wait! Guns don't kill people.. People kill people... Shall we continue to blame the institutions, or the men hiding behind the institutions?
Desies 11-05-03, 12:53 AM	Corthan I'm glad you agree with me!