Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KnightErrantJR 08-12-06, 11:25 PM	After hearing about some of the things that were said at GenCon about the setting, and the fact that several members of the FR panel mentioned that we fans need to let WOTC know what we like and what we didn't like, and that WOTC also pays attention to the message board chatter, I have decided to post this list of what I want out of the Realms and what I have and haven't liked in recent years and what I, as a fan, would like to see. 1. Adventures are fine, and even a "mega" adventure once in a while is fine, but don't fuse adventures with sourcebooks. I would much rather have a straight sourcebook than an adventure/sourcebook. a. Sourcebooks should have information about the region/organization mentioned, and should give "shorthand" stats (i.e. name, race, alignment, class, level, but not full statblocks). Sourcebooks could have relevant monsters, spells, magic items, and maybe some (few) feats, but PLEASE think about if any PrCs are really needed. b. Sourcebooks should alternate between detailing what we have already seen, updated for what might have happened since we last saw the region in the rulebooks, and detailing regions that we have rarely seen detailed before. c. If you are going to have designers write adventures, please try to make sure that they either have a good grasp on the Realms or that they are definately in contact with Realms authors to keep up on what is going on. Sons of Grummsh wasn't bad, but it completely ignored Vorbyx and the Ogre Tharkuls in favor of making an orcish citadel, and the author of the Twilight Tomb hadn't even heard of the second book of the Last Mythal trilogy, which had a lot of details about Star Elves in it. d. At lot of us really did like the Volo series. Someday it would be great to actually see them come back again, if written by Ed Greenwood. e. Quick notes on recent sourcebooks: Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin weren't bad, but were too rules heavy, but still not too bad since they mentioned a lot of old, obscure organizations that we hadn't seen detailed for a while. Power of Faerun was a great book for incorporating new D&D rules into the setting while still providing lots of interesting lore about the setting. While I defended Mysteries of the Moonsea, it was indeed disappointing. It could have been better, because it tried to be too many things at once. Dragons of Faerun was amazing, because it updated the Realms after the Year of Rogue Dragons, as well as providing a lot of information about Realms dragons and the things surrounding them, including organizations, that were great to see. 2. I am glad that the novels and sourcebooks are under the same roof, but make sure that the sourcebooks are still good information on the setting, and that the novels are still good novels in their own right. 3. Steven Schend . . . use him, and often. Also, if you can, use Eric Boyd, Ed Greenwood, Eytan Bernstein, Rich Baker, George Krashos, and Tom Costa to develop for the setting. Don't use random talent (they may be good, but they may not know the Realms). 4. RSEs . . . reign these in. I loved the Year of Rogue Dragons, and I liked the Last Mythal books and the consequenses for the most part, but the Year of Rogue Dragons lost a lot of its impact due to the fact that the next RSE had already started. No one even for a moment thought that anything TOO major would happen before the end of the Year of Rogue Dragons, because no one seemed to mention the events of the previous year in the Last Mythal books, and in the end, this wasn't fair to Richard Lee Byers or Rich Baker. a. We don't need any more ancient evils that no one remembers. We also don't need any ancient forms of magic that everyone managed to forget about. We don't need alternate planes invading Toril. If we have to have "RSE" events, why not have more like the Threat from the Sea, where its more a matter of something that is important, but not particularly "out of the blue." Orc hordes and rampaging dragons may seem mundane, but if they are allowed to do what they have done in the past, at times they could do more to change regions of the Realms than extraplanar maurauders. And it would be more consistant with previous things we know about the Realms. 5. What would I like to see as far as products go? a. A divine sourcebook of the Realms. Not one that details avatars or aspects, but one that details the diferent orders and heresies within the given faiths, and how to play the different members of the different orders. Details on what the divine casters do and how they behave. b. Sourcebooks on the elves and dwarves of Faerun, giving more details on their lands, organizations, magic, and history. The dwarves and elves of Faerun both had their day in the sun, and both, as of 3rd edition, are back on track, so why not a specific elf and dwarf sourcebook? c. A sourcebook on the "core" regions of FR, detailing them greatly and making sure we learn something new about them (regions like Cormyr, Sembia, the Dalelands, and the Western Heartlands, and no, we don't know everything we need to know about them, and recent years have definately seen changes in them). d. Sourcebooks on new or under detailed regions of the Realms, such as Sossal, Damara, Impiltur, etc. Alternating between old regions that need to be detailed and new regions that haven't had much attention would be great. That's my two cents, and this is essentially just an open letter to WOTC so that they can see what at least one fan that has been with the setting since 1987 wants out of his hobby.
Old Sage 08-13-06, 12:21 AM	Neat. And as another fan of the Realms since 1987, I ask you... where do I sign? :D
GothicDan 08-13-06, 12:37 AM	I've only been around since about 1996 (I was 2 years old in 1987, people! ;) ) but I ask, too - where do I sign? :)
Dark Wizard 08-13-06, 12:38 AM	I'm in full agreement with your statements.
sweetmisery 08-13-06, 01:52 AM	Whats an RSE? And whats the next major thing to happen? But I agree, esp. with number 4. I'm more of a DL fan, but Ive been following Faerun since 1995... D&D way before that...
Old Sage 08-13-06, 02:40 AM	Whats an RSE?"Realms-Shattering-Event" -- like the recent events depicted in the "Year of Rogue Dragons" trilogy, or the Time of Troubles for example. They almost always result in major changes to the Realmslore.
Grocery_Bag 08-13-06, 03:09 AM	Where do I sign? And who do I have to Finger of Death to get another sourcebook like the Silver Marches?
Gallameed 08-13-06, 03:11 AM	Grocery_Bag Best screen name evah! And yes, I agree with the first poster totally.
BrianCritchley 08-13-06, 03:40 AM	best I can say is.. ditto
yarethon 08-13-06, 03:54 AM	I'll make your words mine, if you don't mind,KnightErrantJR. Considered me signing an imaginary document now.
sweetmisery 08-13-06, 03:58 AM	"Realms-Shattering-Event" -- like the recent events depicted in the "Year of Rogue Dragons" trilogy, or the Time of Troubles for example. They almost always result in major changes to the Realmslore. Oh ok thanks! But whats the RSE that already started before the Rogue Dragons ended?
AGFA 08-13-06, 08:25 AM	I will give you my virginity for all that!!! wait...too late...
Xavier_of_Cormyr 08-13-06, 03:20 PM	Take that WotC R&D! I always read some WotC employee/ freelancer saying that you guys read & take to heart what we players post here, but after quite some time reading these boards (and others like Candlekeep) I can't say I believe that anyone in Seattle really listens. :waits:
Skeptic 08-13-06, 03:29 PM	Please WOTC, do as KnightErrantJR said. #1 for me is using designers that know what the Realms are, if you want to use new talents, make them work supervised by a senior FR designer. Also, hire someone to supervise directly the FR department, horrors like MotM vs Last Mythal should never happen. R. Baker did a good job, but his "good design before continuity" isn't liked by the old fans.
BrianCritchley 08-13-06, 04:42 PM	Oh ok thanks! But whats the RSE that already started before the Rogue Dragons ended? the last mythal trilogy
GothicDan 08-13-06, 04:52 PM	RotAW?
Ladern 08-13-06, 09:17 PM	I will transcribe something that i already wrote and i whish that someone important read it. Or at least someone who knows how to contact someone important read it and tell me how to do that someone important read it or.... Ok im sorry (CN) "It might be that im just wake from the wrong side of the bed, but i have read the treads for a while, have read my FR books and reading the information in the official site of WotC and i realise that they have messed all in the Storyline and the accesories. In a post before they said that the new format for the accesories is adventures in the geographical zone with some lore about the place. In example "Mysteries of the Moonsea". As i see these format make the things easier for the DM that don't have time to prepare their adventures, but they take away the most important things i look in a Zone accesory, the raw information about whats going on in that place, the history of what's happening, the major diferences that make that place unique (No even one Prestige Class for the Zhent, or a new race or zomething like that). I don't think that site adventures are a bad Idea, but an expanding accesory from a region must expand the rules, the history and the knowledge in that region (as the accesories before that); not using the place to make adventures and adding 5 pages of background for that adventure. Ok, the other issue is Storyline, In some place of the official site i read that they will take some 24 or more months of real time to advance one year in the events, but since then they made novel after novel after novel and they advance 3 years in just a click. Even so fast that they themselves just don't agree in the official events. The last book Dragons of Faerun make up for the events of the year of Rogue Dragons, but right now there are novels about the year of Risen elfkind and the year of Lightning Storms. As the persons that read some novels have written in this forum many things in the novels don't make sense cause one autor write it even before of knowing whats going to happen in a novel which events happen a year before. At least but not at last, i think WotC is a respectable enterprise (although i reserve my opinions for Magic.... I need a therapist), and i think that their intentions for calling more persons to play D&D are notable (as seen in D&D for Dummies and the goal of simplify the game) but they must take quality and not quantity in their minds. OK, after all is just a Game, but its my favorite game and i don't want to see the realms(a great proyect, include many congratulations and flattery for Ed Greenwood and all the others that made Toril go round), i said see the realms a mess cause someone upstairs want a bigger sale or just dont take the time to order it. Maybe im wrong, maybe im a loony, maybe im just meessing around (after all my character is a Tiefling Rogue/Fatespinner CN), But if one of the scribes can send me a way to make my voice be heard by the staff of WotC and if anyone thinks like me (more or less) lets make something to keep a great game GREAT!!. As Big Ed said lets tell them what we want. Thanks " We got to do something
Ladern 08-13-06, 09:17 PM	I will transcribe something that i already wrote and i whish that someone important read it. Or at least someone who knows how to contact someone important read it and tell me how to do that someone important read it or.... Ok im sorry (CN) "It might be that im just wake from the wrong side of the bed, but i have read the treads for a while, have read my FR books and reading the information in the official site of WotC and i realise that they have messed all in the Storyline and the accesories. In a post before they said that the new format for the accesories is adventures in the geographical zone with some lore about the place. In example "Mysteries of the Moonsea". As i see these format make the things easier for the DM that don't have time to prepare their adventures, but they take away the most important things i look in a Zone accesory, the raw information about whats going on in that place, the history of what's happening, the major diferences that make that place unique (No even one Prestige Class for the Zhent, or a new race or zomething like that). I don't think that site adventures are a bad Idea, but an expanding accesory from a region must expand the rules, the history and the knowledge in that region (as the accesories before that); not using the place to make adventures and adding 5 pages of background for that adventure. Ok, the other issue is Storyline, In some place of the official site i read that they will take some 24 or more months of real time to advance one year in the events, but since then they made novel after novel after novel and they advance 3 years in just a click. Even so fast that they themselves just don't agree in the official events. The last book Dragons of Faerun make up for the events of the year of Rogue Dragons, but right now there are novels about the year of Risen elfkind and the year of Lightning Storms. As the persons that read some novels have written in this forum many things in the novels don't make sense cause one autor write it even before of knowing whats going to happen in a novel which events happen a year before. At least but not at last, i think WotC is a respectable enterprise (although i reserve my opinions for Magic.... I need a therapist), and i think that their intentions for calling more persons to play D&D are notable (as seen in D&D for Dummies and the goal of simplify the game) but they must take quality and not quantity in their minds. OK, after all is just a Game, but its my favorite game and i don't want to see the realms(a great proyect, include many congratulations and flattery for Ed Greenwood and all the others that made Toril go round), i said see the realms a mess cause someone upstairs want a bigger sale or just dont take the time to order it. Maybe im wrong, maybe im a loony, maybe im just meessing around (after all my character is a Tiefling Rogue/Fatespinner CN), But if one of the scribes can send me a way to make my voice be heard by the staff of WotC and if anyone thinks like me (more or less) lets make something to keep a great game GREAT!!. As Big Ed said lets tell them what we want. Thanks " We got to do something Any ideas from the Wizards?
Yokinobu 08-13-06, 09:34 PM	I totally second all of what you said, KnightErrantJR. Mind if I add a few? City Stat Blocks - Are very helpful, I have found, in my limited DMing experience. They alone go so very far in describing a community. Underdark was chock full of them, SS was lacking. Prestige Classes - Should be rare. When included, make them worth taking. Considering the competition from core suppliments, don't make us choose between a flavorful character build or a good one. Same with feats. Underdark, RoF, and and PGtF were generally alright in this department, UE, CoS, and SS not so much. Old 2E material - is a dream come true when refurbished for 3rd Edition. I think fans like to see old 2E lore that has not been mentioned in a 3E source, and conversions like monsters to 3E. Tom Costa's unofficial material on Eric Boyd's website was really good about this. Well, there's my personal opinion, anyway.
BadCatMan 08-13-06, 09:38 PM	All agreed, though I'll add some: * Sourcebooks should have mini-adventures in the back; keyed maps or few page long mini-campaigns, like in Silver Marches and all the others. * Something to make those Eberron fans stop bugging us about this, that and everything else.
GothicDan 08-13-06, 10:14 PM	I don't run premade adventures, but the idea of mini-adventures? I like a lot. I mean, a LOT. Because it still leaves so much up to the DM to do.
Yokinobu 08-13-06, 10:20 PM	* Something to make those Eberron fans stop bugging us about this, that and everything else. Yep, you just came back from that FR or Eberron thread. :rolleyes: (I did too.)
Red_Wizard 08-13-06, 10:41 PM	i agree fully on all fronts, and my little tidbit to add is something so simple i don't ever know why it stopped. *Bring back an index in the back of the sourcebooks. I mean it's all fine and dandy to gave a general Glossary at the front, but i don't like trying to guess where i read that one specific thing on a certain character. It takes sooo much time for me to skim through every one of my source books, by best guess alone.
ArnimThayer 08-13-06, 11:30 PM	This, by far, has been the most well thought out post in awhile. I agree with Knight Errand JR and his statements. As a long-time FR DM, the more source books that come out, the harder it is to keep up. And since I have grown older with a family, the amount of time I have to prepare for my weekly game has become greatly diminished. I fully agree that Realms authors need to be more continuity minded (though I would add Thomas Costa to the list!), and be aware of upcoming events, even if they have to sign a NDA first. The flood of PRCs and feats have really diluted the game, and need to be cut back in a Regional sourcebook unless regionally specific. And, while new spells and magical "goodies" are nice, they are a poor substitute for the actual region flavored information that we have come to expect. Please WoTC, take this thread to heart. We are the supporters of the Realms speaking!
BadCatMan 08-13-06, 11:31 PM	Yep, you just came back from that FR or Eberron thread. :rolleyes: (I did too.) You put it so much more eloquently than I did. Yes! Indexes! In every book! Also: * More Psionics in the Realms. Doesn't have to be big, I like it small and out of the way and mysterious. I'd like information about the XPH races in the Realms, and psionic groups within existing races and cultures.
Riodrian 08-13-06, 11:54 PM	I would like to see more information on how the FR gurus would fit some of teh generic D&D stuff into the Realms. How do Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend view warlocks? Or hexblades? Or truenamers? Incarnum? I know it is up to each DM, but I always like to see how the people that helped shape the setting view the integration of newer material. I wold definitely buy updated Volo's Guides. Or an Aurora's Catalog. Update the electronic atlas!
GothicDan 08-14-06, 12:14 AM	We actually hear a lot about that kind of stuff via Ed's replies. :) Usually it's a, "If you want them in your world, go ahead and use them," but I do not think that they are "meant" to be in FR, and in canon, Ed doesn't consider them to be there until a DM chooses that he wants them there. He cares more about actual political organizations and religious organizations and the like first; PrCs and classes are secondary to culture, so if there's a PrC or class that fits into a cultural or religious aspect, then go ahead and stick it in. And he also tends to like to use "new" things very, very rarely, to sort of "surprise" his players. At this point, I would totally pay for a hardback, indexed, nicely-column-ized book of Ed's replies, even if we can get them for free. :)
Yokinobu 08-14-06, 12:36 AM	At this point, I would totally pay for a hardback, indexed, nicely-column-ized book of Ed's replies, even if we can get them for free. :) Amen brother.
Besshalar 08-14-06, 05:57 AM	I'll sign this declaration as well .
Shade_Hunter 08-14-06, 07:45 AM	The OP originally mentioned it, but I'd really like to see more regional books also. Dragon's Coast, Cormyr, Sembia in particular. Explaining the regions in lots of detail; influential figures, detailed history, detailed maps of all the important cities, places and current happenings. That would be totally awesome. Just my 2 cents.
Uncliched 08-14-06, 08:19 AM	Yes! Where do I sign for this again now... *Casts Arcane Mark* Poifect.
cameron1 08-14-06, 10:09 AM	I am in complete agreement with Knight Errand JR. I would merely like to emphasize that I would be willing to pay money to have more books from Volo and an Elven and Dwarven sourcebooks. There is so much as far as the Pantheons, regional attitudes, relations between subraces, and the like dealing with these two races that I would really like to know.
KnightErrantJR 08-14-06, 11:10 AM	For some reason when I was writing the original post (I was on vacation and typing it out after a day at Six Flags, when everyone else had already passed out from exhaustion), I did forget to mention two very excellent Realms contributors that I should have: George Krashos and Tom Costa, and I appologize for not specifically mentioning them (though, in all fairness, I was going to write a letter to Dragon Magazine asking them to make sure and publish more articles from these two as well).
Reefy 08-14-06, 11:48 AM	I'd just like to add my full support behind what KnightErrantJR has said in his post. I would like to add, and this is possibly the most important thing for me, that I would really love more regional sourcebooks, but done in the more conventional style (City of Splendors: Waterdeep and Silver Marches are the best two in my opinion), rather than the Mysteries of the Moonsea style. Quite frankly I have no use for such a book. Adventures are fine, but not at the expense of sourcebooks, and certainly not a mish-mash of the two. Mini adventures such as those in the back of Silver Marches are fine.
Whizbang1963 08-14-06, 12:34 PM	Sign me up too... Less adventures, more detailed information. Truly define the setting so I can create my own adventures..
Alediran 08-14-06, 12:48 PM	*Conjures a modified version of flame wall that scorches the ground with the following message* I agree.
Riodrian 08-14-06, 01:46 PM	We actually hear a lot about that kind of stuff via Ed's replies. :) At this point, I would totally pay for a hardback, indexed, nicely-column-ized book of Ed's replies, even if we can get them for free. :) Quoted for emphasis. This is an awesome idea.
Mkhaiwati 08-14-06, 03:27 PM	Great stuff, KnighterrantJR! I agree with it all, and add the following: a) keep the sourcebooks seperate from the adventures. I like both, but combining them like MotM was a disappointment. The original format, (ie Silver Marches) as mentioned was great, it gave lore with small sub-adventures within. The adventures like Sons of Gruumsh are great as individual entities. b) the lore books should be designed for players and DMs. Again, enough lore should be there for a player to get a sense of the place, why players would want to be from there, help flesh out a character, etc. The DM should see lots of adventure possibilities there as well as detailed locations and power groups. c) Prestige classes for me are okay, I think we have plenty, but also acknowledge that some place might need them (Old Empires, anyone?) Make them interesting, as well as good details about them. A recent format, Lost Empires of Faerun, made great use of them in how to have them in the game, as well as enjoyable to read about, even if we don't use them. d) I also would like an index in the books. However, if that means replacing three pages of lore, such as the horse breeds from Powers of Faerun, then I could suffer without the index. It is a pain to search an entire book for a reference to an event, person, or place that you know is in the book, but just not exactly where. e) sourcebooks for the core places has been mentioned, Cormyr and the Dalelands have gone through several changes since the FRCS, and multiple changes since the Volo guides or Cormyr accesory. These are not the only places, as some locations received scant detail even before the 3rd edition. With so much lately happening around Unther, a good Old Empires book would be handy. The place is really hopping now, with a lot of playing potiential, but all the info is really outdated or just not there.
Dark Wizard 08-14-06, 05:40 PM	* Something to make those Eberron fans stop bugging us about this, that and everything else. Yep, you just came back from that FR or Eberron thread. :rolleyes: (I did too.) I really didn't want to bring this up, but as I skimmed the Eberron vs. FR tread mentioned previously, I noticed a few points relevant to this discussion. Basically, FR is getting ripped to bloody shreds in that thread. As much as some of it is just irreconcilable subjective favoritism due to in-group/out-group thrashing (on both sides might I add), some of the points do make sense. Viewing the arguments from both sides, they do have a few criticisms in rough agreement. Most of the problems (the holes in the setting, etc.) seem to be a result of TSR's legacy of mismanagement and WotC's more recent tampering and inconsistencies. Criticisms include: - Internal inconsistencies (see below). - Massive retcons (everything from single characters, places, or events to the whole cosmology itself). - Constant RSEs. - Tag on expansions due to marketing reasons. - Regions that are uninspired direct real world parallels (related to tag-ons and marketing). - Illogically little influence between subcontinents, Faerun/Kara-Tur/Zakhara (related to the last two points above). - Definitive mechanical write-ups of gods (not just the avatars, but the actual gods). - Printing similar stats for NPCs, especially the powerful or unique ones who are not meant to be. - Inflated CRs, due to bad/incorrect/illogical NPCs builds and unnecessarily high CR NPCs. Can't it just be said that Larloch is always more powerful then the PCs, does it matter if Larloch is 29th, 32nd or 46th level, it leads to a NPC CR arms race. - Too much focus on certain NPCs, often ones who aren't good examples of the typical. - Focus on flavor of the month (more like a decade) races such as the drow (who are actually only a small part of the setting). - Little attention to more standard races such as halflings, gnomes and even dwarves to some extent. Are all of these complaints valid? Probably not, but if any of them are, they should be addressed. Most of these seem to be due to company level (as opposed to designer level) tampering with the setting, marketing moves, sales figures, material for the sake of popularity. FR is perhaps a victim of its own success. Several subcontinents were addons, pasted into the setting with little regard for lore and logic other than for marketing reasons, because FR was popular and would help sell the new settings. This makes the setting inconsistent in tone, are there supposed to be direct Earth parallels or are there not. If most players practically ignore them, the designers practically ignore them, and even the company practically ignores them why are they were in the Realms instead of being their own settings? Elminster and other powerful NPCs were supposed to be background flavor elements, reality obscured in legends, semi-mythical figures. Elminster was to be a narrator for sourcebooks and novels. Stats were not supposed to exist for him, perhaps nothing other than a vague line ("powerful ancient wizard"). Chosen templates, spellfire, moonblades, etc were novel elements. Yet people wanted to know too much and wanted this stuff to be available to PCs, so it was published as such. More recently, FR books have had terrible editing for NPC stats. Too much focus on sections of the setting there are not supposed to be that dominating, such as Drow or the return of Shade. There are RSE that shake up the place then seem to fade into the background. Needlessly rearranging the pantheon in the ToT, senselessly tagged on Tuigan Invasion, return of Shade, the Elven Crusade, the Dragon Rage. All of these are given nods, but the real ramifications don't seem to be discussed enough. Meanwhile things like the return of Bane and the Harper schism are present but not given explanations or details. And the most glaring of changes, the altered cosmology is treated as always being there. I like the Realms because of the hard working creator, designers, and authors who put effort into making the setting a interesting place with lots of well thought out history with a consistent atmosphere. At the same time, the setting is burdened with many things. Some older products were so poorly integrated into the main setting that many, including the company and the designers ignore them, so why not remove or update them with appropriate effort. Bad policies have trampled all over the Realms causing inconsistencies. FR is being Swiss cheesed with problematic holes in the same way DC Comics is with their continuity problems, infinite retcons do not make a good setting. The setting is giving mixed messages to both long time fans and new players alike. Why are the core areas of FR popular and the fringe areas not? Why are some metaplot elements applauded, yet some are disputed and decried so openly and fervently on these boards and elsewhere? If analyzed, a discernable pattern can probably be seen, many of these questions can be answered by tracing back to some of the perceived problems listed above. The formula for FR’s greatest successes is still there; just don't let distractions muddle it up. Otherwise, everyone loses; the fans, the newcomers, the designers, and the company.
Mkhaiwati 08-14-06, 06:12 PM	also some good points, Dark Wizard. it reminds me of one item I forgot from above. f) more attention to the day to day life of clergy. We don't need more stat blocks, as Dark Wizard & KnightErrantJR suggest, besides, they already exist. The core beliefs stuff in the Dragon mag is close; I am looking at the latest, the same one with the great Impiltur article. Within the Pelor article, there are parts with holy texts, aphorisms, holidays, roles of paladins and druids, myths, etc. The old Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons have some of it, but also have a lot of stats filling up too much space.
GothicDan 08-14-06, 07:11 PM	I am feeling so much love in this thread. *sobs* For the first time, I don't feel like the minority here. ;)
Red_Wizard 08-14-06, 08:17 PM	This is definatly the first entire community thread where we are all in agreement that's for sure. It's nice to see once in awhile ;) :D
Old Sage 08-14-06, 08:18 PM	f) more attention to the day to day life of clergy. We don't need more stat blocks...Kuje and I are still hopeful that the various rituals of the clergies for deities in the Realms will one day see some focus from WotC. Ed share's what he can at Candlekeep, but I'd still love to see a deity book for FR that completely details each and every deity-related ritual observed by the clergies of the gods in the Realms.
Old Sage 08-14-06, 08:19 PM	For the first time, I don't feel like the minority here. ;)You're never in the minority GD. ;)
Grandpa Gamer 08-14-06, 08:37 PM	Neat. And as another fan of the Realms since 1987, I ask you... where do I sign? :D ibid Where do I sign?
GothicDan 08-14-06, 08:51 PM	You're never in the minority GD. That, right there? :cloud9:
Thinblade 08-14-06, 08:52 PM	If WotC actually does even half of this, I might start buying FR books again (and this from someone who's been playing in the setting since before puberty).
Mace_Hammerhand 08-15-06, 06:29 PM	Sign me in! I'd like to add something to the lore-heavy-sourcebook idea: Back in the old days of 1st edition D&D we had the Gazeteers detailing various nations. These supplements had a booklet for both the player and the DM. This way the player could read about things that were relevant for his character in both ways, either if he came from that area or if he came into that area, without getting to see those things, like spells, artifacts, etc. that were not meant for his eyes at all. I, as a DM, do have serious reservations about handing any of the sourcebooks to my players because one info they are supposed to read leads right into the next they are most definitely not supposed to read. A regional sourcebook could basically retain the hardcover binding and include pouches for the two guides (player's and DM's) and also have two maps. One more detailed for the DM, and a second, more general, map that could be purchased "in game" for the players to use. PrCs are nice, when they fit the region/topic, but I'd rather have more information on a region than several dozen new feats and PrCs which will get lost in the almost uncountable mix of feats and PrCs anyway. If there is a new PrC introduced, make it count. There are a few great and useable PrCs in the various books, but many of them seem kind of added on. As for feats, it's basically the same, make them count. The Initiate feats are great examples for "good" feats. Great idea Knight Errant Jr!
Reefy 08-15-06, 09:12 PM	I'd just like to say that with regards to regional sourcebooks, I'd like to see them alternate between the core regions (Cormyr, Sembia, or the Dales - all of which have easily enough lore for a separate book each), and the less developed (popular?) regions (the Coldlands, Old Empires). Somewhere like the Western Heartlands has never really been given the coverage it deserves.
Sarigar 08-15-06, 11:38 PM	MAPS! We don't get enough of these beauties. And, near and dear to my heart, dwarven supplements. Realms of the Dwarves, Player's Guide to Dwarves, the Dwarven Realm's Campaign Setting, Power of Faerun's Dwarves, Champions of Dwarves, and a few, to be named, dwarven guides. :D
Kokopelli 08-16-06, 01:07 AM	There is so much truth in this thread. As someone who has been reading Realms material since about 1989, I will echo every point and request made in this thread. I agree enough to be making my first post here in quite a long time.
Delendir 08-16-06, 02:14 AM	Two words; maps and less RSEs. Oki, that's four. Maps: there were wonderful maps in 2E boxes, which I still use today. But today, the maps are on the pages of books, from which they are hard to scan and print for the entire gaming crew. Big, wonderful, detailed maps is what we need. I know they are costly, but if you wanna save somewhere, make less city maps that serve absolutely no purpose of what-so-ever. Like the city map of Bezantur. WTF? It's suppose to a city equal to Waterdeep in size and we get a map that's half a page high and wide, barely enough to describe a hamlet. RSEs... How would I put it? They are.. boring. Don't get me wrong, I like the return of the shades, etc. as much any bloke. But they get old after a while. Events, intrigue, and complications in smaller, local areas like Cormyr, Dales, Sembia, Waterdeep, Luskan, Silverymoon, etc. are all much more interesting when it doesn't grow into "the entire world is at jeoperdy" -thing. Other than that, I love FR. :cool:
Kezghan 08-16-06, 03:05 AM	Neat. And as another fan of the Realms since 1987, I ask you... where do I sign? I quote the Old Sage for my answer. Please listen the fans of this great enterprise we know as the Forgotten Realms.
Monch9 08-16-06, 04:48 AM	KEJR, I'm in. Monch
NaGang 08-16-06, 07:09 AM	I understand that WotC are trying to please a varied demographic - they're trying to snap up new gamers whilst pleasing the old timers. Sometimes this isn't going to work. Some products appeal to one group over the other and sometimes they're too much of what both of the other wants and it all gets muddied together. The only way I can see for WotC to get around that is to either reduce the output and focus on one group rather than the other or to increase the output with enough products that appeal to one group and enough that appeal to the other. Another option might be to aim Eberron squarely at the newer gamers and FR at the oldies, although that of course won't please everyone either. I'd be very interested to learn the target and actual demographic of the core Dungeons & Dragons product line as well as both the Eberron and Forgotten Realms settings. Ultimately WotC is a business who I think is doing the best they can to please a lot of people who want different things. For all that, and as an old-timer with great affection for Faerun myself, it would make me very happy if WotC paid attention to exactly what I wanted and put out affordable products to my dream specifications, and for the most part I agree with everything my eminent co-posters above have said too, but ultimately I'm very happy with the state of the (published) Realms and will continue to enjoy my time there.
Arivia 08-16-06, 07:25 AM	a. Sourcebooks should have information about the region/organization mentioned, and should give "shorthand" stats (i.e. name, race, alignment, class, level, but not full statblocks). Sourcebooks could have relevant monsters, spells, magic items, and maybe some (few) feats, but PLEASE think about if any PrCs are really needed. I think this is the only part of this I really disagree with. Full stat blocks can be a great tool for usage, such as the unusual local military of Elturel, or (in a more sociocultural look at a region or other group, as opposed to the usual geographical overview) illustrating important characters. Stat blocks for "Zhentarim Patsy" or "Thayan Underling" may not make for good lore or reads, but are effective tools for running a game. (Recent back and forth on the MMIV is all about this.) Prestige classes fall under the same banner. They're effective rules presentation tools that unfortunately make great sells to players and have been overdone (For another example at this, look at White Wolf's gorging on Bloodline/Lodge/Legacy supplements as of late --- a line clocked in at 7 so far). Designer fatigue with them wasn't a good thing, but discarding them on simple basis of market flood when they're still the best rules vehicle in some cases isn't a good thing either. CoV got this about right --- it created meaningful prestige classes without flooding the other parts of the sourcebook out. Rules-heavy sourcebooks aren't bad, either, as long as the rules mean something, are usable in my games --- but that necessitates a good focus and a good concept. Heroes of Battle got this right, Complete Warrior didn't. Mind you, I'm in the minority here --- I'm not looking for catalogues on stuff I'll never use, I'm looking for stuff I can use in my games. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not a Realms fan. I'm a gamer who enjoys gaming in the Realms, and who has often found the fan community to be at loggerheads with her desires. EDIT: If I was to request one product for the Realms, it would be a look at campaigning in the Realms. Faraer's made good nods towards a sourcebook on adventuring in the Realms before, but I think it needs to be paired with information aimed at the DM focusing on the thematics of the Realms. As opposed to Eberron, which has a clear stylistic focus, it's much harder for DMs to peel back the Realms to get what they should be working at, why the high-level NPCs are around, and all the other bits of accrued DMing tips for the Realms that are forced out of squeezed "Running The Realms" sections with little more than advice on more fodder for formulas that boil down to the roleplaying equivalent of the summer action flick. The Realms can be so much more in a gaming context --- indeed, it needs to be much more for its true potency to be revealed --- but it's hamstrung by the lowest common denominator pitching WotC does. Everyone knows D&D can be more than the dungeon crawl. So how does Jim Bob get there, and why is the Realms the place to do it?
GothicDan 08-16-06, 07:42 AM	Mind you, I'm in the minority here --- I'm not looking for catalogues on stuff I'll never use, I'm looking for stuff I can use in my games. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not a Realms fan. I'm a gamer who enjoys gaming in the Realms, and who has often found the fan community to be at loggerheads with her desires. I've noticed this rather odd assumption. Why do you think that the majority of people who have posted so far on this thread aren't both gamers and fans? I, for instance, like Planescape more than the Realms, but I like the Realms, still. And Dragonlance. And Spelljammer. And Vampire the Masquerade and Mage the Ascension and Ars Magica, etc. A lot of us would use a lot of those 'useless things.' Not trying to be offensive, mind you. Just saying that just because we want different materials doesn't mean that we don't use them in gameplay. I would very much prefer to know about the cultural legacies of Turmish, the bestowment of noble titles, the history of the Gulthmere Forest, the marriage traditions, and the lives of the common citizenry when designing my Paladin of Nobanion, for example. Such things allow one to build a unique character who is still tied to a region of the Realms, and to focus on playing that character rather than rolling dice. ... Really hope I'm not coming off as the 'attack the only dissenter!' here. I just don't understand why one needs something beyond the most basic mechanics to feel they are having a fun experience around the gaming table with their friends, or why such mechanics can't simply be made up by the DM and players, with a few guidelines and suggestions. Perhaps there's more thespian in me than I ever thought, though.
Nilonim 08-16-06, 09:01 AM	I totally second all of what you said, KnightErrantJR. I would like to see again some nice product like "Lands of Intrigue", one of the best FR sourcebook. Bye Nim
Hawkfeather 08-16-06, 09:20 AM	I wholehearted agree with KnightErrantJr.
Snotlord 08-16-06, 10:27 AM	The Good Knight pretty much sums my thoughts on the current state of Faerūn in the hands of wotc, and I hope the wotc managers pay attention. Other than that, I'm still hoping for a huge Enemies and Allies style companion to the Players Guide to Faerūn to generic FR ncps.
WotC_RichBaker 08-16-06, 03:29 PM	We're keeping an eye on the thread. I personally agree with many of the suggestions you all have made, and I'd like to see more FR products move in those directions (except the Volo's Guides, I just don't think those are usable game product). Two caveats: First, we have to make the business succeed. Geography supplements that sell only to the DM aren't as good for us as more player-oriented supplements, which is why we keep trying different formats. Second, you shouldn't expect to see immediate changes based on your ideas -- we're well into 2007 game design at this point. As much as we would like to be more nimble and responsive, it takes time to design, develop, and edit big sourcebooks. Anyway, thanks for the excellent feedback, and keep it coming! I want to know what you folks want.
Mace_Hammerhand 08-16-06, 04:06 PM	Geography supplements that sell only to the DM aren't as good for us as more player-oriented supplements, which is why we keep trying different formats. Hence my suggestion on the Gazeteer modules of Mystara fame. A two booklet format in which one booklet doesn't repeat what the other says, and one is solely for the DM would, IMO, have appeal to both players and DMs. The problem with player/DM-related items in one and the same book is that the borders kind of vanish since none of the items have a bold heading stating that players best put the book away now or turn to page xyz. Even splitting a module into two booklets, separately purchaseable, one for DMs and one for players with the DM also having to read the players' book to get all the info might be a decent marketing strategy. It might go against the current hardcover make-up of the supplements, but it may address a whole bunch more gamers. Especially since the design part would still be the same amount of work, only that the result is splitted in two. If those items were softcovers like Silver Marches etc, I'd imagine the price of the combined booklets not to be significantly higher than a single hardcover.
Thinblade 08-16-06, 06:19 PM	That's a good point. It used to be that most of the supplements were soft cover, even big products like the Encyclopedia Magica. Almost the only hard cover books around my table would be the PHB, DMG, and MM. Now it seems almost everything is hard cover, which increases the price and doesn't give us better paper quality. I'm not as expert in the modern printing process than I am conservation techniques, so I don't know how much money would be saved by switching most/all sourcebooks to soft cover, but wouldn't it save enough to fund at least one more book a year?
Krash 08-16-06, 09:06 PM	I've often thought that there is little utility in a regional sourcebook for players other than the standard spells/PrCs/feats - and there are a bunch of those just about everywhere these days. What might make a regional sourcebook appeal to players however would be information that they could use to mould their PC. Such things as an expanded list of names for characters from X, social attitudes, conventions and mores in a region, styles of clothing and personal appearance, speech (with perhaps a lexicon of Chondathan, Damaran, Tethyrian words which PCs could sprinkle into their use of "Common"), unique forms of armor or weapons from some regions, and suggestions re backgrounds from region X for character class Y (e.g.: Having grown up in the temple farm of Goldenfields, you have always had an affinity for nature. Your calling as a cleric of Chauntea/Silvanus/Mielikki stems from this place's attitude to the cycle of life and man's part in it.) Naturally you can't account for every class combination, but you could hopefully do it for the core classes. Anyway, just my 2 cp. -- George Krashos
kaeso 08-16-06, 09:57 PM	I completely agree with all said here. *signs in blood*
Dargoth 08-16-06, 11:06 PM	Two caveats: First, we have to make the business succeed. Geography supplements that sell only to the DM aren't as good for us as more player-oriented supplements, which is why we keep trying different formats. I dont understand the logic of that at all A standard game of D&D is 5 people (4 players and a DM) ie thats 5 potential customers for Wizards Regional source books ie Silver Marches, Underdark and City of Splendors A DM is likely to buy it to flesh out a campaign hes going to run in the area A Player will buy a regional source book to flesh out their character Number of potential customers from Typical D&D Group: 2-3/5 Modules ie Mysteries of the Moonsea and new trilogy coming out next year Depending on the DM, they may or may not buy it. Some DMs wont bother buying it because its not set in the region where there running their campaign Why do I need Mysteries of the Moonsea when Im running my campaign in Waterdeep? A Player should NEVER buy a module its not for them Number of potential customers from typical D&D Group: 0.5/5 In doing what Wizards have done with FR line for 2007 they've actually DECREASED the number of potential customers
Conlon 08-17-06, 12:29 AM	I stand behind the good KnightErrant and am in agreement with him. I will not be puchasing any of these new adventure/sourcebooks like Mysteries of the Moonsea. I am sure they are very well done, but it just isn't my flagon of mead. WotC has produced incredible sourcebooks like The Silver Marches and Lost Empires of Faerun, and that is the type of product I purchase. I am a creative DM and don't want to be lead by the nose through a region so my players can learn about it. I'm not saying that it is bad, it just isn't for me. The mini-adventures in the back are excellent and I use them as in-between points of the campaign when I don't have time to prepare my own stuff. I also agree that tried-and-true people such as Steven Schend, Richard Baker, Eric Boyd and obviously Ed Greenwood, should be utilized as much as possible. Another thing that I may as well bring up is that there should be an overseer of development to ensure that there isn't overlap or conflicts with "canon" stuff. I have been reading complaints about this type of thing, so it is a problem. The Realms is an amazing setting with so many talented people giving so much of themselves to it. As a result, there is an almost fanatical following of people who rabidly purchase many of these products and take them seriously. I love the Realms and visit there as much as I can, bringing my friends along with me. I have gladly tossed many a platinum piece to the increasingly prolific sorcerers of the sound for more of their lore. They just need to know that every tome they produce and send out is closely examined by their customers and they need to know what is expected of them. I appreciate the many years of enjoyment I have recieved from the Realms, and look forward to many more.
Ateth_Istarlin 08-17-06, 07:12 AM	I agree with pretty much everything on this thread. 1) Regional source books (WESTERN HEARTLAND esp.) - more like SM & NOT like MotM. 2) Real maps! 3) Fewer Feats/Prc's - Lets face it, there must be 2500 feats & 100's of Prc's already. 4) Sourcebooks like CoS for other cities (ie. Balder's Gate, Phlan,Raven's Bluff, etc.). 5) Racial sourcebooks - inc. Saurial's & those good-aligned orcs (can't remember their name offhand). 6) Updated Volo's guides - a great source of fluff & adventure hooks! 7) Updated Aurora's catalogue - one of the best aids ever :bow: 8) More books produced as Softcovers - Lower cost means more people can afford them. What ever is produced I'll probably still buy it tho! LET'S HEAR IT FOR THE REALMS :clap: :cheer: :w00t:
cameron1 08-17-06, 09:20 AM	I also agree that tried-and-true people such as Steven Schend, Richard Baker, Eric Boyd and obviously Ed Greenwood, should be utilized as much as possible. Don't forget guys like Phillip Athans, who lie in backround and keep things running as they should. I have seen more "thank yous" to Athans in the beginning to FR novels then I care to count. It seems the Good Knight carries the voice of us all. We can only hope that Wizards takes to heart what as been said here, since its what all the dedicated fans truly want. And I pray for the day when WoTC releases Dwarven and Elven supplement books, especially after stuff like the Thunder Blessing and Baker's "Last Mythal".
ShadezofDis 08-17-06, 12:28 PM	Oh oh oh! I haven't finished the thread yet but my first and foremost thought is; "If is see one more uber-epic 50th level mage/lich/god I'm going to puke" I mean really, it's like the realms is chock full of nukes. I remember a day, long ago and far away, when a 15th level mage was powerfull. No, really, I do :)
ShadezofDis 08-17-06, 02:46 PM	Alright, finished the thread, now for my other opinions :) First and foremost, I would love WoTC to continue to find FR profitable, otherwise no more FR :) I would love, absolutely love, more regional source books. I really have more than enough monsters, prcs, feats, magic items, spells etc. What I need are things like; What are the power groups? Relations to other nations? Internation relations? Attitudes on mages? Clerics? I do love the 2nd ed maps as well, though I wouldn't mind seeing more detail in them (though I completely understand the difficulty involved in that from my own mapping experiences *g*) Anyhow, I guess I'm among the "I can make my own stats, please just give me some info about the place" crowd :) I think some of my favorite products ever produced about the realms were Elminster's Ecologies, I got a wonderfull feel for the places detailed in those books that I had no trouble creating situations there. My current campaign is based in Turmish around Gildenglade and I've been wracking my brain to figure out everything from population figures, city layout, regional layout, law enforcement, etc (I probably just should have stuck with sites I already have info on but I like Turmish and eventually I'll have some well detailed info *g*) One more thing (otherwise I'll probably ramble on and on, not that I haven't *g*) I would LOVE something "low key". IMO the realms has gotten so heavy with uber-characters that I feel like the world has gone munchkin. But then, that's just MHO :)
Patrakis 08-17-06, 03:28 PM	All this stuff is great and i agree mostly with Knight but... At some point i would like WotC to stop advancing the timeline and describe the realms at that point and before but no further. Advancing the years is the main reason why we don't have more than Faerun described. I want the whole planet, not just Faerun. 20 years should have been enough to give us a sense of the world at large. Here's a suggestion. Stop the timeline when 4e gets out. WotC will rewrite all their old stuff anyway so might as well describe the whole world for once. Pat
Faraer 08-17-06, 03:31 PM	. . . (except the Volo's Guides, I just don't think those are usable game product).This I don't understand. The fact is that many people use them! They're the first place to look for information on the regions they depict. How could material on places PCs might visit, and plot hooks they might get involved with, not be useful to DMs running games? They're less useful to players, certainly, but so are most of the books you're publishing now.First, we have to make the business succeed. Geography supplements that sell only to the DM aren't as good for us as more player-oriented supplements, which is why we keep trying different formats.Your artistic task, I think, is to do justice to the Realms, to its future potential and the almost unprecedented resource of Ed Greenwood's unpublished notes. I hope you understand how truly extraordinary this wealth is. I'm glad to hear you're still trying new ways to best do this profitably, and that lore-filled adventures are an experiment (that runs oddly with the need to sell to players!) and not a conclusion. I hope you try, too, a really thick book that goes some way to treating an aspect of the Realms in its full, proper detail. While in some ways City of Splendors: Waterdeep is a more accessible overview, in others it's less useful to DMs who want greater detail, and less comprehensible because it leaves out many of the whys and workings that make the whole make sense. I hope you're watching Ptolus carefully. I strongly endorse George Krashos's wish for books for players that actually help them play their characters -- true players' guides. It's something that Ed prepared for his players but is too laborious for most DMs to, and something with obvious mass appeal to all but exclusive rules-crunchers (who could be given their fix too). I'll repeat my idea of a book on adventurers and adventuring companies: an untapped subject of obvious interest and commercial appeal. There has only ever been one low-level Realms adventure that introduces the Realms authentically to new players with a combined home-base setting and adventuring plots and sites: FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar (or the part of it that was published). The Skip Williams adventures, published away in Dungeon, poorly researched and not strongly evocative (to my ear) of the Realms, don't cut it. There's a clear opportunity for a new starting point that will unite the Realms play experience and be talked about for decades to come as B1 and T1 are. Linking adventures to the official timeline needlessly restricts their appeal. I'm sure this was a factor in the disappointing sales of City of the Spider Queen. Dungeon's guidelines on adaptability make sense here. I'm sure you know well enough the pros and cons of RSEs. Still, this is my feeling, which you'll properly treat with a big helping of condiment. Seventeen years of the books department's sensationalist whims mortgaged the Realms' integrity and future as a world and a commercial property for short-term novel sales. Where 1340–57 DR is a beautiful, subtle and credible history, 1357–74 is a garish, frantic, unbelievable mess of threats coming and going out of nowhere, decades-old plots sold for beans, design principles and underlying workings torn and frayed. The return of every old race and power you can think of is a crass mistake for what immanent history means. The stream of RSEs isn't sustainable, and my heart sinks when I read of yet more plans for events for the Realms to suffer. Have some bloody mercy.
GothicDan 08-17-06, 04:09 PM	I would just like to echo Faraer's opinions above. I was thinking the same things myself.
TomCosta 08-17-06, 05:51 PM	First, I can't find much to disagree with others ideas here. I will say I prefer sourcebooks whether theme-oriented or regional over monster books or magic books and those over modules. Top of my list would be to see the Dragon Coast finally given its due, from the Giant Plains to the Coast itself to Gulthmere to a revisiting the Pirate Isles. There's so much untapped potential for all sorts of campaigns of all levels there. Second, a very sincere thank you to all those who've mentioned my name as an author you like. I truly am flattered, and you made my day. (And also a thank you to my nephew who noticed this thread before I did.)
GothicDan 08-17-06, 05:54 PM	Oh, yeah, Mr. Costa - I'll also throw in my bit to support you, too. I've really enjoyed your Prestige in the Realms article, moreso than most Prestige Classes popping up in books nowadays. If WotC ever wants to do PrCs (not that I want to see many more...), I vote for you to do that, definitely!
BadCatMan 08-17-06, 10:13 PM	I'm not so sure about those Volo's Guides. I looked through one and found information on a shoe shop. It wasn't even a magical shoe shop, or a haunted shoe shop, or a secret cult hideout shoe shop. It was a plain old everyday shoe shop. I felt that was going a little too far. I did like those Wizard & Rogues, Warriors & Priests of the Realms books. Even without being able to use those kits* in 3e, the information on what adventurers from different regions are like, in personality, dress and style, is quite handy for fleshing out a character or NPC, making them less samey. * Is that what they are? Some seemed silly or game-mangling.
GothicDan 08-17-06, 10:18 PM	Nothing was really game-mangling in 2E - well, I guess, one could say in ANY game - because the DMs always hold the power. :) ... Heh. I love that kind of stuff (simple shops, simple NPCs, etc.) in my games. For my characters, I love little details like writing about how they dress, their relations in their home town, their forms of banking, etc. Which is probably why I spend so much time on making characters... But of course, there's a heck of a lot of valuable information in the Volo's guides that are still far more 'important' than the shoe shops...
Purple Dragon Knight 08-17-06, 11:15 PM	Faraer makes many a good points here. He echoes what many of us Realms fanboys would want in a perfect world (read: a world without currency, a-la-Star_Trek, where no one is pressured to achieve anything unless it culminates in perfection and self-achievement, etc.) However, there is also the reality of things. What we had coming to us back in 2E was from a different company. Many of the contributors of 2E are still around, thank God, but He-Who-Holds-The-Reins is no longer TSR... no longer WotC... it's Hasbro. Hasbro is a huge company guys. Some of you should google it, start from their main website, and see how truly huge it is. One can only imagine what kinds of pressures are coming from the top to "do better" year after year. I'll take a wild swing here, but have some of you perhaps considered that some of these "new formats" or "experiments" were probably "requests" from up on high? I'll take a living, slightly compromised but still existing and published Realms over a dying, fan-supported charity (such as Birthright). Not saying Birthright ain't cool, but meh... not for me (took a little dip in the setting couple years ago, to try, and well... Realms pulled me back promptly). So Faraer: yes, your comments have the solid, connecting ring of truth. These are the Realms we ALL want. But please: remember that Rich and the others are all good people trying to make ends meet (we all are: I think therefore I am; I am a fan of the Realms therefore I'm a good person; right? :cool: ) and that through their efforts, a few more fans of the Realms are created each day, which will ultimately translate in more demand for the Realms, which will in turn, eventually, give the Realms the real "negotiating power" that will bring the kind of products you speak of. To use an engineering analogy: right now, Hasbro bought a new calculator (WotC/D&D/Realms), and it's really trying all the buttons/options to make sure it's working fine. After these initial tests and trials, Hasbro will come to trust the calculator implicitely, and will eventually stop making experiments and settle into a routine. After a while Hasbro won't even be able to count in its 'head' or on its 'fingers' anymore, and will completely rely on the calculator whenever it's required! :D
Faraer 08-17-06, 11:49 PM	I agree with pretty much all of that, Purple. Ownership by Hasbro is a mixed blessing: it brings us these regular, wonderful (often!), lushly produced books; the size of Wizards also demands, as you say, big quarter-on-quarter profits and higher overheads than a smaller publisher might have. I work in publishing, occasionally in RPG publishing, and have a fair idea of market realities. That wasn't my 'perfect world' answer, but my 'What I Want Out of the Realms as a Fan and Consumer' with an eye on the commercial side too. My post probably reads too harsh, but elsewhere I hope I've made clear that I'm impressed with a lot of the recent books and much of the editorial direction. I don't envy and am full of sympathy with the people who have to make these decisions, which often amount to near-guesses as managing shared worlds is a new and unperfected art, and are under perhaps strenuous pressures that we don't know in detail. (I wish a little more of this was public, and Wizards people were allowed to discuss their longer-term plans, which would be good for customer trust -- though communication is certainly far better than it was.) I've never got exactly the products I want, and would never expect to! But it's no use second-guessing myself in telling what they are; and the best path for Wizards may lie in a more imaginative and maybe risky publishing plan rather than a conservative one. I hope this puts my comments in better perspective.
Conlon 08-17-06, 11:58 PM	Don't forget guys like Phillip Athans, who lie in backround and keep things running as they should. I have seen more "thank yous" to Athans in the beginning to FR novels then I care to count. It seems the Good Knight carries the voice of us all. We can only hope that Wizards takes to heart what as been said here, since its what all the dedicated fans truly want. And I pray for the day when WoTC releases Dwarven and Elven supplement books, especially after stuff like the Thunder Blessing and Baker's "Last Mythal". Thank you for pointing that out. Due to the late hour and my flagging consciousness, my list of distinguished Realms contributors was far from exhaustive and I should probably not have even named names. My apologies to the many I have overlooked, Mr Athans included.
Raelan_Harpell 08-18-06, 02:28 AM	I agree with pretty much everything in the original post. I regret to say that it's been a long time since I've actually purchased a Forgotten Realms supplement; I believe the last one I did buy was Lost Empires of Faerun (which was excellent). Since then, money's been tight and I just haven't been very excited about the Realms products being released. While there have been one or two since then that piqued my interest (most notably the Waterdeep update; alas, I didn't buy it since I have the old City of Splendors boxed set and could muddle along without an updated version...despite how much I enjoy anything by Eric Boyd), at the cost of RPG products these days the releases mostly haven't been worth my money. Frankly, I prefer supplements with lots of world information, including detailed information on culture, modes of dress, and views of foreigners. I also like lots of detail regarding cities and sites; lately, the information just seems to be lacking. I really liked the format used in the old Forgotten Realms Adventures Hardcover (the same format that was later used in many supplements). One of the shining examples of this, if you'll excuse the pun, was Empires of the Shining Sea. To this day, it remains possibly the best detailed work as far as culture, history, modes of dress, and lore is concerned. The sheer amount of information it contains is staggering - considering page count and font sizes, the one booklet in the boxed set has as much info as two (if not three!) of today's supplements. (Mr. Schend, you rock!) Another thing I miss about the older works is maps - full size maps that you can unfold. The modules that have come out since they were removed have been missing something. One thing I would like to see in future regional supplements is a separate player info section. It should discuss local beliefs, myths, prejudices, and the like, thus allowing players to better flesh out characters that hail from the region. Adding to this, another, related section should be entitled "What the Player Characters Know". This would be broken down into two sections: the basics of what characters native to the area know about their home, and the basics of what outlanders know about it, including rumors and half-truths. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. My apologies if they're hard to muddle through - I don't write well when tired.
Yokinobu 08-18-06, 08:02 AM	Oh, yeah, Mr. Costa - I'll also throw in my bit to support you, too. I've really enjoyed your Prestige in the Realms article, moreso than most Prestige Classes popping up in books nowadays. If WotC ever wants to do PrCs (not that I want to see many more...), I vote for you to do that, definitely! One thing that Tom Costa's PrC's all have in common, is that they are pretty much all worth taking, and they all offer something new with ample Realmslore associated with them. This reputation is what convinced me to seek out Dragon #307, #317, #321, and #322. I'd like to see more of Tom Costa's work in Dragon. Better yet, I think it would be great if some of his unofficial work was published. My favorite is the Nimbran Peer. ;) Something else, I always thought that a really cool sourcebook would be Island Kingdoms; a tome that details Evermeet, Lantan, the Moonshaes, Nelanther Isles and Nimbral. A Western Heartlands sourcebook would be a close second for me.
Ateth_Istarlin 08-18-06, 08:31 AM	I should have added a request for more low to mid-level adventures as well. :blush:
KnightErrantJR 08-18-06, 10:55 AM	We're keeping an eye on the thread. I personally agree with many of the suggestions you all have made, and I'd like to see more FR products move in those directions (except the Volo's Guides, I just don't think those are usable game product). Two caveats: First, we have to make the business succeed. Geography supplements that sell only to the DM aren't as good for us as more player-oriented supplements, which is why we keep trying different formats. Second, you shouldn't expect to see immediate changes based on your ideas -- we're well into 2007 game design at this point. As much as we would like to be more nimble and responsive, it takes time to design, develop, and edit big sourcebooks. Anyway, thanks for the excellent feedback, and keep it coming! I want to know what you folks want. Rich, I really appreciate you chiming in. It is always good to know that some of the "right eyes" are looking in at the right time. I completely understand that next year would more or less be locked in at this point, but yes, its important to keep in mind that even if the suggestions start to move the products in a particular direction, it will take time. To a degree, I'm not sure how much you can get players that aren't interested in "DM products" like regional sourcbooks to buy them. I know in my own gaming group, only two of us buy sourcebooks, and the rest just turn to us to give them information on how to play their characters in the Realms. (so its a 2/5 ratio of actual Realms consumers). Still, the DMs that do buy Realms definately seem to want regional sourcbooks. I've always loved the Volo's Guides, but I knew that was likely the least "doable" thing on the list. You understand I had to try though? At any rate, thanks for chiming in, and every one else, thanks for the support and your own ideas, keep them coming!
KnightErrantJR 08-18-06, 11:01 AM	I nearly forgot, but in regards to Mace's comment about Player's and DM's sections in regional sourcbooks. I think he is on to something here. I understand that the general format is still hardcover books, and if you don't want to change that, what about having a clearly defined "Player's Section" that gives the general info that a PC would have about a region that they live in, and a "DM's section" that has to do with the organizations, dungeons, etc of the region? The 2nd edition Moonsea accessory was set up like this, as I recall.
Xysma 08-18-06, 11:34 AM	I'd just like to add my full support behind what KnightErrantJR has said in his post. I would like to add, and this is possibly the most important thing for me, that I would really love more regional sourcebooks, but done in the more conventional style (City of Splendors: Waterdeep and Silver Marches are the best two in my opinion), rather than the Mysteries of the Moonsea style. Quite frankly I have no use for such a book. Adventures are fine, but not at the expense of sourcebooks, and certainly not a mish-mash of the two. Mini adventures such as those in the back of Silver Marches are fine. I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to say I regret buying the MotM, but I do consider about half of it to be a waste, and by that I mean that I personally will not use it. I will say that while I don't hate the idea behind the book, it just wasn't done very well, and I would much rather have a regional sourcebook.
Xysma 08-18-06, 11:45 AM	I dont understand the logic of that at all A standard game of D&D is 5 people (4 players and a DM) ie thats 5 potential customers for Wizards Regional source books ie Silver Marches, Underdark and City of Splendors A DM is likely to buy it to flesh out a campaign hes going to run in the area A Player will buy a regional source book to flesh out their character Number of potential customers from Typical D&D Group: 2-3/5 Modules ie Mysteries of the Moonsea and new trilogy coming out next year Depending on the DM, they may or may not buy it. Some DMs wont bother buying it because its not set in the region where there running their campaign Why do I need Mysteries of the Moonsea when Im running my campaign in Waterdeep? A Player should NEVER buy a module its not for them Number of potential customers from typical D&D Group: 0.5/5 In doing what Wizards have done with FR line for 2007 they've actually DECREASED the number of potential customers Dargoth, when I first read Richard Baker's post, this is exactly where my train of thought led. I know for a fact that I am the only one in my group who bought MotM, and it will stay that way because my players have no need for the book. However, out of the five in my group we all own Silver Marches, Shining South, Magic of Faerun, and Underdark.
Xysma 08-18-06, 12:05 PM	I really think KEJR has encapsulated the desires of Forgotten Realms fans. Particularly the regional sourcebooks detailing regions like Cormyr, Sembia, the Dalelands, and the Western Heartlands. There are only so many regions in Faerun, if WotC wants to experiment, do so after the finite number of regions have been covered and I will support these experiments wholeheartedly.
Snotlord 08-18-06, 01:01 PM	I just want to throw in my two coppers in praise of Tom Costa (and try to stay on topic while at it): Costas Cormyr prestige classes is (along with the FRCS) IMO the finest collection of classes done right ever printed by wotc/paizo. That article has seen more use in my campaigns than all the splatbooks combined. It should be used as a reference for future FR writers.
Faraer 08-18-06, 01:23 PM	If the illustrations were more tightly integrated with the text, and paid more attention to consistent detail, they could be more a part of the information in the book (and of brand identity) and less disposable artists' interpretations. Eberron art has its own look, the Realms should too. Compare, to pick on one picture, this illustration (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/PoF_Gallery/96804.jpg) from Power of Faerūn. That's a Games Workshop chaos warrior, which doesn't do much to build the setting's distinct look. With poster maps, I guess the question is, are their utility and hand-feel (tactile satisfaction) worth the cost to produce? I can imagine a style for them that combines looking more like vellum or parchment Faerūnian maps with accuracy and detail. If I was to request one product for the Realms, it would be a look at campaigning in the Realms. Faraer's made good nods towards a sourcebook on adventuring in the Realms before, but I think it needs to be paired with information aimed at the DM focusing on the thematics of the Realms. As opposed to Eberron, which has a clear stylistic focus, it's much harder for DMs to peel back the Realms to get what they should be working at, why the high-level NPCs are around, and all the other bits of accrued DMing tips for the Realms that are forced out of squeezed "Running The Realms" sections with little more than advice on more fodder for formulas that boil down to the roleplaying equivalent of the summer action flick.I agree strongly. It's dauntingly hard to understand the Realms from scratch -- to interpret material in its right weight and context without having that context. A lot of stuff we all know is in obscure sources or never made explicit at all, and an ideal presentation of the Realms would figure out what this is and lay it out. It would be possible, difficult, and worthwhile to write a point-by-point Realms introduction like the Eberron book has, laying out its most important themes. (Putting Elminster there instead -- which was, I recall, to say 'Look, all the NPCs obey the rules!' -- was a mistake.) The "Running the Realms" chapter of the FRCS could easily be twice its size (and it was cut down severely from the draft, though ironically there's stuff left in which is inaccurate or unnecessary). The Realms intro published in the Conspectus and Best of the Realms II (or an even better one) also belongs in the core book. The good introductory adventure that I've asked for could also go a long way to explaining how this all works in practice. The book needs to give readers the daily life of an ordinary person -- like the 'day in the life of a Dales farmer' bit I believe was cut, and we're not talking more than a page -- and what it's like for an adventurer, something like the Harper's year in FOR4, which would convey intangibles like multi-layeredness and the pattern into which everything (like high-level characters) fits that can't be understood in isolation.
CC Shade 08-18-06, 01:29 PM	Add another "me too" to the original list of suggestions. I'd also add that I too have no use for products like Mysteries of the Moonsea, and will continue to avoid them. I'd love to see more books along the lines of Serpent Kingdoms and Lost Empires of Faerun that are sourcebooks that step beyond a specific region. Regional sourcebooks for Maztica, Al-Qadim, and Kara-Tur that really integrate them well into the rest of the setting would also be welcome. I'd really like to see a new hardcover monster supplement a la Monsters of Faerun, as there are tons of Faerunian creatures from past editions that haven't been updated yet, and WotC appears to have abandoned updated monsters almost entirely in the "core" Monster Manuals, beginning with MMIII. And although I realize it's probably too late to fix this, I really wish the Realms hadn't been ripped from the Great Wheel, requiring numerous extraplanar references in non-Realms books to try to accommodate the new, barely flesh-out cosmology.
TomCosta 08-18-06, 05:57 PM	(Not to stray off topic, but you should be able to fair number of the FR monsters not yet updated on the Creature Catalogue website and a few that Eric Boyd and I did in the Bestiary of the Realms on his website here: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html. We hope to have volume 2 of our efforts posted by the end of the month. Those sources combined still leave a nice chunk of unconverted monsters, but not too many unconverted FR monsters that are all that great IMO at least looking recently at the list I compiled of all 1E and 2E realms-specific monsters. That said, I am planning to work on a smaller volume three.)
allenchan 08-18-06, 07:54 PM	I'd just like to say I agree with most everying discussed here, especially in the OP. :)
Dark Wizard 08-18-06, 08:08 PM	If the illustrations were more tightly integrated with the text, and paid more attention to consistent detail, they could be more a part of the information in the book (and of brand identity) and less disposable artists' interpretations. Eberron art has its own look, the Realms should too. Compare, to pick on one picture, this illustration (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/PoF_Gallery/96804.jpg) from Power of Faerūn. That's a Games Workshop chaos warrior, which doesn't do much to build the setting's distinct look. I agree. FR needs an art direction, at least some rough idea of what style best represents the setting descriptions in visual images. Eberron's art for the most part has some consistency that helps convey the tone of the setting. That can go a long way. It can make the books and the setting seem less hodge podge. For instance, I think the art in Tome of Battle is uninspiring. I feel the mismatched style of the various artists helped form my negative opinion of ToB's art. The art didn't give me a feel for the classes and abilities because the many artists had different and conflicting interpretations of the same material.
Darkmeer 08-19-06, 01:20 AM	With all that Knight Errant said, I agree. I also agree with a few others From the twisted mind of a converted DL/PS/FR fan... I have to say, KEJR, I'm impressed. If that level of detail was put into the books, I'd love to purchase all of them (financially impossible now, but I can dream). Now, on to the love/hate angle: I love the idea of a player section/DM section. It make SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much sense to me, but then again, I hate all the statblocks in the middle of the FRCS' Gazetteer section, as well as the adventure hooks sitting there (in plain view of the players!). The other idea that has been posted was the far lands (Maztica, Zakkhara, Kara-Tur) sourcebooks. I think that they would sell well, at least in the circles I see. How often do we see threads like: "Is there any information about Kara-Tur" or "What's happened in Maztica since Bane's return" or something of that nature? I see them almost every time I come to these threads (about 1-2 times in a month), and heck, I've written one of them at least! (updated Kara-tur timeline from forever ago). I'm a big fan of the "plot device" npc (although I've destroyed at least one or two :P ). There's not really a reason to give EVERY NPC a stablock. Some of the Generics could (and should be) in the appendix. Something on say, Thay and its environs (as example, we have something like this already) should have something to do with a slaving team, a low level red wizard, a moderate level red wizard, and a higher level red wizard with retinues for each. This gives us an idea of what we can do to expand on it. The generic "Waterdeep city guard" or "typical guild thief infiltrator," or "general informant" are pretty standard, and should be around for those DM's pressed for time. As to the proliferation of PRC's... I think we've nearly hit a boiling point. I've only heard one suggestion that makes some sort of sense: Deity-specific PRC's. Sure one or two of another type would be nice, but deities of the realms have such diverse and cool clergies that it would be a shame to see them not be utilized. Some not all organizations need them, and even then think REALLY hard about what ones you want to allow. Organizations within clergies/militaries/aristocracies would also be something I'd love to see. Something to give to players to flesh out that Cleric of deity X, or an entire circle of Druids (harkening back to 2e's definition of ranks... Initiate, druid, archdruid, etc.). Heck, an online supplement that says "Cormyr's purple dragons are arranged in this way" in an excel spreadsheet would make me happy (with modern ranks so we know where they stand). I've seen one DM use the different ranks and orders in a religion to full effect... and it makes the world more real. And, if my wish were there: a small, tiny, little web enhancement saying where the deities are if you choose to use the great wheel (I think this would be great for any setting). there's my :twocents: and signature for this thread written in blood. /d
Mace_Hammerhand 08-19-06, 05:17 AM	Another idea for adventures: how about widening the CR/difficulty for the adventure? In various sourcebooks we already have NPCs at various levels and CRs. To make adventures available to more people than the narrow group of those that do have the level requirements, why not provide stats/options for all sorts of levels. In my experience the older we get the less time we do have to prepare things for a game night, yet pre-made adventures for lvl 4 (for example) are redundant for a group that had intermediate level characters. The DM has to rework the stats again, which again is time consuming. If he had the option to play the adventure with his group without putting more work into it, it might help...
sleyvas 08-19-06, 09:15 AM	>>a. A divine sourcebook of the Realms. Not one that details avatars or >>aspects, but one that details the diferent orders and heresies within the >>given faiths, and how to play the different members of the different >>orders. Details on what the divine casters do and how they behave. Yes, this would be much appreciated. For instance, the Ilmaterites of Damara and Impiltur are more "healers of the defenders, who hold back the tide of evil". Meanwhile, the Ilmaterites in Thay are "the behind the scenes runners of an underground railroad of sorts providing aid to the downtrodden masses of slaves". As another example, the followers of Talos in Calimport refer to him as Bhaelros and he's seen very much as a destructive nature deity. However, in Thay, Talos is seen also as a destructive power of nature, but also he portrays the aspect of Malyk "god of Wild and Destructive magic". I would love to see this book see the light of day. Eric Boyd did a very good job placing some of the major centers of Worship, but I think it would be very interesting to see this taken to a more extreme extent..... why not state where the top 10 centers of worship are and who are the top 4 individuals in these centers. Then we could have a reference table that could gather this info up, both by city and by country. Of course, some lesser deities may not have 10 major centers of worship. Some major deities may have up to 15. But, it would help clarify where a deity's attention is focused (after all, before the avatar trilogy, who would have suspected Arabel as the center of Tymora's faith). There would also obviously be the disclaimer that this would not be all the temples, just those of most note and the focus of those temples, and of course there are always new temples being formed. I would take this a bit further and say to include the sites of demonic princes and humanoid pantheons. This could also include fallen sites which might just need to be placed as potential adventure sites. <<b. Sourcebooks on the elves and dwarves of Faerun, giving more details on <<their lands, organizations, magic, and history. The dwarves and elves of <<Faerun both had their day in the sun, and both, as of 3rd edition, are back <<on track, so why not a specific elf and dwarf sourcebook? I would clarify with this, I would not be interested in seeing reprints of past lore about the lifestyle of elves and how they must meditate, and how they all want to reach Arvandor. I would not be interested in reading how dwarves are hard working crafters. This kind of generalized info is found in books like races of destiny and races of stone. I would specificy that we would like to see a REALMS oriented book detailing where they are located, who are their major leaders, what are the differences between the various communities, what are they noted as being crafters of (i.e. community X of dwarves has a large number of constructs that aid them as well as one of the largest populations of dwarven arcane casters to be found, whereas community Y of dwarves has some of the best armorsmiths who work in Mithril and Adamantine and other exotic armors). >>d. Sourcebooks on new or under detailed regions of the Realms, such as >>Sossal, Damara, Impiltur, etc. Alternating between old regions that need >>to be detailed and new regions that haven't had much attention would be >>great. Aye, this area NEEDS revisitation. Hopefully from someone who will actually read through what source material is out there and try and fit the pieces together (for Damara, the bloodstone series of modules. the bloodstone lands sourcebook, at least one dungeon magazine module focused on the dragons that were lairing in Vaasa following Zhengyi's fall, the recent Witch King novell featuring Artemis Entreri). Then hopefully he will work backwards to the time of Narfell and try and fit the pieces together (i.e. what was Orcus' involvement in Narfell, what was Eltab's, what was the Queen Abiding's involvement, etc..) As to Impiltur, I'd like to see this thorougly looked into as well... and not just the second kingdom. What was the first kingdom of Impiltur like and who were its leaders. What made it fall? Throw in a little Mulmaster action and what's happening with the nearby city states as well, and you've got a nice little stew.
crazy_cat 08-19-06, 12:40 PM	FR things I'd like to see: Proper maps - its hard trying to make do with scans from books. Regional sourcebooks - Moonshaes, Western Heartlands, Dalelands Adevntures - set in areas covered by existing sourcebooks and building on organisations and ideas covdered in them.
Tobus Neth 08-25-06, 05:27 PM	Ditto the OP. Ditto everything said here. Sourcebooks need maps like Silvermarches (blown up Detailed areas) Modules of all places cool and new places-Haunted Halls of Eveningstar-Myth Drannor-Durlags Tower-Dragonspear castle-Halls of the Hammer etc booya!
LordNull2 08-25-06, 08:07 PM	I agree with everything said so far 100%. And the one thing i would like to see also is an increase in page count for the books:D
bobobravado 08-25-06, 11:03 PM	i agree with everything stated. i've played FR for many years and the last book Mystery of the Moonsea was atrocious.
Mr. Wilson 08-27-06, 10:14 AM	I'm sure you know well enough the pros and cons of RSEs. Still, this is my feeling, which you'll properly treat with a big helping of condiment. Seventeen years of the books department's sensationalist whims mortgaged the Realms' integrity and future as a world and a commercial property for short-term novel sales. Where 1340–57 DR is a beautiful, subtle and credible history, 1357–74 is a garish, frantic, unbelievable mess of threats coming and going out of nowhere, decades-old plots sold for beans, design principles and underlying workings torn and frayed. The return of every old race and power you can think of is a crass mistake for what immanent history means. The stream of RSEs isn't sustainable, and my heart sinks when I read of yet more plans for events for the Realms to suffer. Have some bloody mercy. Quoted for truth. I'm late, but I agree with 90 percent of what the Knight said, and agree with some of the other posters as to the greatness that is Volo's Guides.
3catcircus 08-27-06, 07:15 PM	Heck, an online supplement that says "Cormyr's purple dragons are arranged in this way" in an excel spreadsheet would make me happy (with modern ranks so we know where they stand). /d Actually, this already exists. Check out Candlekeep.com - search for Jerry Davis's "The Military Forces of Cormyr" under the Traveler's Notebooks section of Alaundo's Library. It's all there.
BadCatMan 08-27-06, 11:08 PM	Probably an odd suggestion, but: Landscape art. It would be nice to look at a picture and see what the view is like from such-and-such a location, to see what the land really looks like. From the grassy plain underfoot to the towns dotted over the plains in the distance, to the mountains on the horizon, that sort of thing. It would help to really get a feel for the region, I think.
Telesaken 08-28-06, 12:22 AM	I (and my players) would like to see something like the players guide that come out possibly ever year. The book could update some of the world events for the players as did the first one, and it could offer prestige classes that a lot of the forum members seem to dislike in regional books. The players guide is the only book that all my players have and use on a regular basis, and they all seem to own a copy. It could be a yearly kind of update for the players and DM. The people I play with would like to see more Realms based 'religion' prestige classes believe it or not. Maybe you could do a book like the “Complete series” for Realms worshipping classes. This of course is just the point of view of a group who is probably more average than most. Not a one of us is a Realms sage by any stretch of imagination; we just like the flavor of the art, deities, and player options.
Xysma 08-28-06, 09:40 AM	The people I play with would like to see more Realms based 'religion' prestige classes believe it or not. Maybe you could do a book like the “Complete series” for Realms worshipping classes. That is an excellent suggestion. This concept is something that I think many of us have wanted for a long time; a sourcebook dedicated to the worship, clergy, rituals, holy days, etc, of the various faiths of the Realms rather than on the deities themselves. Faiths and Pantheons is an excellent resource, but limited in its detail on the specifics of the faith. Substitution cleric or druid levels that are specific to each deity could be effectively used in such a book. Although I think prestige classes have gotten out of hand, I have to admit I would enjoy seeing a prestige class for each deity (as long as Tom Costa creates them :) ).
Dark Wizard 08-28-06, 03:02 PM	I agree. We need a Faiths of Faerun. That would work, a guide for players playing the clergy of the various gods rather than a book for DMs playing the gods like in Faiths & Pantheons.