What on Toril happened? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What on Toril happened? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Reneshat
12-24-07, 02:12 AM Just a couple of weeks ago, dissenting opinions regarding 4ed had various factions at each others throats. Recently however, everyone seems to be getting along more or less, apologizing when they go over the line, and commending people on good points even when they disagree. Is this the holiday spirit, or has everyone finally worked out all their various vitriol regarding 4ed? When you have a thread where Mr. Miscellany and Green Elven Vampire are more or less getting along, the end of the world must be nigh. What is going on around here?
Dark Wizard
12-24-07, 02:29 AM Shhh... Don't disturb it by asking that question. Let it be. Enjoy it while it lasts. :P
johnkretzer
12-24-07, 03:23 AM Just a couple of weeks ago, dissenting opinions regarding 4ed had various factions at each others throats. Recently however, everyone seems to be getting along more or less, apologizing when they go over the line, and commending people on good points even when they disagree. Is this the holiday spirit, or has everyone finally worked out all their various vitriol regarding 4ed? When you have a thread where Mr. Miscellany and Green Elven Vampire are more or less getting along, the end of the world must be nigh. What is going on around here?

Lets be honest alot of fans get emotional about something they have dedicated 20 years of their lives to(not to mention alot of money). People are upset, but you can only remain upset for a certain amount of time. Then you can have a rational disscussions.
sfdragon
12-24-07, 04:01 AM i expect it to start up again next year when the frcs comes out
GreenKnight
12-24-07, 05:00 AM What is going on around here?

It's the Christmas spirit. :)
Redrake
12-24-07, 06:45 AM Indeed. Even in World War 1, in 1914 they had a break during Christmas. It was followed by 4 years of bloody massacre. :D
Rauric
12-24-07, 09:16 AM I think it's great. Maybe people are getting used to each others stances on things. Change happens. People views and opinions can change a little with time, especially if they really try to understand other peoples points of view. I won't say I hate 4E or the 4E Realms (unless I pick it up and actually hate it) but I can understand peoples potential dislike for it.

I believe in Houseruling though and using what I like and not using the rest.
This is why the new changes of the FR don't bother me so much right away.
If I want Mystra or the other gods in shes in. Same with NPCs. Done. That works for me though. That is why I am cool with everything. Evidently people are ticked that they may have to do this form of Housruling. They may still do it after the book comes out but they may be ticked during the wait.

I also believe this is a dedicated, but small community of FR fans. This is my opinion. It is vocal but not as powerful in the consumer arena as it thinks it is sometimes. Same goes for the crew at Candlekeep. Sorry, this is just my opinion. I am think lots of people buy more books online or at retail stores than at their local gaming store and there are alot of FR fans that don't even really use the internet, or if they do they do not check out the forums.

Anyway these are my general beliefs and where I am usually coming from when I post stuff. I don't think any of us should take ourselves or the game as seriously as we sometimes do, and if WOTC screws up certain things we like we are more than capable of fixing it. Again this is just how I feel.
I just want to game and have fun, I won't sweat the little stuff. Then again I am a pretty good sleeper, the minute I hit the pillow I'm asleep. (My wife hates that).;)
msatran
12-24-07, 09:54 AM Well, the problem is that I've reviewed the Dungeons and Dragon's 4th edition preview book.

This will ruin every existing game.

If any PC's WERE tieflings, and you ran a game with backstory, that backstory is now ruined.

Dragonborn? WTF is this? This is out of theme and stupid. Suddenly this race existed where no such race existed before?

And how would this race, in the Forgotten Realms, overcome the general prejudice against scaly folk like Yuan Ti?

Hi, guys, I'm a Dragonborn Ranger.

Gee, Mr, snake guy, you look like a Yuan Ti archer to me...Thunk...Thunk...Thunk...

But I'm a...URK....(Body hits floor.)

People assume that 10 int is average. But if you look at the world around you, an average int is pretty provincial and stupid.

The transformations to tieflings beg all sorts of interesting questions...

4th edition transformations....

Tiefling: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! My a** flippin' hurts! Oh, my GOD! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Tail...what the (BLEEP) is this? My pants...I don't have any pants....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, my head! I have HORNS...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My helmet! My magic helmetttttttttttttttt! !#$$%%!@!!!!!!!...

...No...pants...(SOB!)

Dwarves: The unbearded Dwarven hottie?

Guys, there was one thing that was always cool. Dwarves have beards. Dwarf women who don't have beards need to shave them. The fact that both sexes had beards differentiated them out and made them cool.

It's not the mechanics I don't like. It's the flavor.

No half orcs? No half elves?

I've seen a glass that was half-full. This is more than half empty.
Rauric
12-24-07, 10:20 AM Gotcha. I understand not liking the fluff they put out. Though I figure changing it to suit my likes won't be all that difficult. Plus we don't know yet how they will incorporate Dragonborn and Tieflings into FR and Eberron. To me everthing in the core book is just that, core. Campaign Settings cn always work it so they have different flavor. :D
MerrikCale
12-24-07, 10:45 AM I think it's great.

not me, I love a good throwdown
MerrikCale
12-24-07, 10:49 AM Well, the problem is that I've reviewed the Dungeons and Dragon's 4th edition preview book.

This will ruin every existing game.

If any PC's WERE tieflings, and you ran a game with backstory, that backstory is now ruined.

I think you are overstating a bit. Tieflings from the Realms remain the same. There has alway been a difference between core and the existing settings. I do not believe they will kill off all the elven sub-groups or rename moon elves eladrins either.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-24-07, 11:03 AM 4th edition transformations....

Tiefling: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! My a** flippin' hurts! Oh, my GOD! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Tail...what the (BLEEP) is this? My pants...I don't have any pants....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, my head! I have HORNS...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My helmet! My magic helmetttttttttttttttt! !#$$%%!@!!!!!!!...

...No...pants...(SOB!)

That was funny. :rofl:

By the way, I wouldn't assume that the new 4E races are ONLY for core, as Rich has said that all the core races will be used in the new Realms setting.

It is true that gold elves and such aren't going to be called "eladrins", though.

And of course, you don't have to use what you don't like!
Faraer
12-24-07, 11:07 AM People are upset, but you can only remain upset for a certain amount of time.It looks like the same information-release policy as with the Dragon/Dungeon cancellation.
Rauric
12-24-07, 12:57 PM That was funny. :rofl:

By the way, I wouldn't assume that the new 4E races are ONLY for core, as Rich has said that all the core races will be used in the new Realms setting.

It is true that gold elves and such aren't going to be called "eladrins", though.

And of course, you don't have to use what you don't like!

I just meant that the Core Fluff will change to fit a setting. Dragonborn night be introduced as something brand new while the tieflings will be worked in to fit FR lore. The dragonborn may suffer some serious prejudice in some areas. Good times.

Plus that last statement is what I am all about. Use what you want. Can the rest.
Kenzuki
12-24-07, 01:23 PM Hey, don't be hitting on the tieflings now. One of my favorite characters was a tiefling monk who formerly served Bhaal as an assassin. They can be very fun to play. Though I do think that tiefling in the movie was a Draenei ripoff.
GreenKnight
12-24-07, 04:17 PM No half elves?

Half-Elves are in. It's just that the paragraph or two they had on them in Races and Classes was cut out.
MerrikCale
12-24-07, 04:28 PM Half-Elves are in. It's just that the paragraph or two they had on them in Races and Classes was cut out.

what was in Races & Classes does not mean it will be in the first PHB
GreenKnight
12-24-07, 04:36 PM From what I hear, they weren't in Races & Classes. :P But I think it's pretty certain that Half-Elves will be in the first PHB. Half-Elves have been mentioned from pretty early on in the playtests and reports alongside elves, eladrin, and others which we know are in the first PHB.
johnkretzer
12-24-07, 05:09 PM Hey, don't be hitting on the tieflings now. One of my favorite characters was a tiefling monk who formerly served Bhaal as an assassin. They can be very fun to play. Though I do think that tiefling in the movie was a Draenei ripoff.

That is my problem ALL tiefling are now going to be like those their is no more varience. Personaly I like what Bruce Cordell was orginaly going to design for the race. With all the changes my past two tiefling characters can't exist as teiflings are being presented in core.
Lord Karsus
12-25-07, 04:10 AM -Everyone is getting along better, eh? You all have me to thank for that. Thank you, thank you...

:bravo:
GreenKnight
12-25-07, 04:28 AM That is my problem ALL tiefling are now going to be like those their is no more varience. Personaly I like what Bruce Cordell was orginaly going to design for the race. With all the changes my past two tiefling characters can't exist as teiflings are being presented in core.

Appearance doesn't have to be tied to mechanics. For instance, in Ravenloft, the Half-Orc became the Caliban, which looked pretty much however you wanted it to look. There's an NPC in Ravenloft, for instance, who looks more like a Rakshasa then a Half-Orc, yet that's the racial entry he uses.

Just because the PHB says that Tieflings look like this, doesn't mean that they must look like that all the time. And just because their origin in the core setting is one thing, it doesn't mean their origin in other settings can't be something else. There's a difference between fluff and crunch. And a Tiefling with smaller horns, or hooves, or without a tail can hardly be said to be something that'll break the system or anything of the sort. Hell, when 4E comes around, I'll be using both Tieflings AND Dragonborn to play the role of the Caliban in Ravenloft. How hard would it be to make a Tiefling variant in comparison to that?
Rauric
12-25-07, 06:30 AM Maybe you will still be able to customize your tiefling some. I understand how this one can be a pain though. It would be great if they came up with a good loophole to work out the kinks.
Redrake
12-25-07, 01:25 PM I very much doubt I would like the idea of tieflings without a wider range of customization. It's not like they are all coming from the same kind of fiends.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-25-07, 02:27 PM But remember, the 4E tiefling is supposed to have a different history than tieflings in the past did, anyway. They are now a true-breeding race, not humans who've manifested their fiendish heritage.

Not saying you shouldn't customize them, though, if that's what you really want to do.:)
johnkretzer
12-25-07, 02:32 PM Appearance doesn't have to be tied to mechanics. For instance, in Ravenloft, the Half-Orc became the Caliban, which looked pretty much however you wanted it to look. There's an NPC in Ravenloft, for instance, who looks more like a Rakshasa then a Half-Orc, yet that's the racial entry he uses.

Not just talking about appearence here. I am talking about heritage. All Tieflings are the result of a curse placed on human due to their traficking with devils. They all diabolic in nature. That completely destroys one of my character's concept.

Just because the PHB says that Tieflings look like this, doesn't mean that they must look like that all the time. And just because their origin in the core setting is one thing, it doesn't mean their origin in other settings can't be something else. There's a difference between fluff and crunch. And a Tiefling with smaller horns, or hooves, or without a tail can hardly be said to be something that'll break the system or anything of the sort. Hell, when 4E comes around, I'll be using both Tieflings AND Dragonborn to play the role of the Caliban in Ravenloft. How hard would it be to make a Tiefling variant in comparison to that?

Sure you are right...to a point. mechanics that support flavor. Which I had to a degree in 3.x now I have to rewrite flavor...and probably mechanics as well. Like I have to do with elves now as I don't feel high elves should be lumped in with gold elves or wild elves.

So with all the flavor changes that I have to recreate mechanics to fit in why should I convert? I mean really this edition changes seems to me more about getting rid of the old fans then getting new ones because I see nothing about the old lore that would keep new people away.
GothicDan
12-26-07, 11:10 AM Let's talk about what WotC HAS shown and not "What WotC MIGHT" do. I know that's pretty frustrating for me, when I'm trying to discuss what we HAVE seen.
MarkusTay63
12-26-07, 03:40 PM It isn't the holidays...

In order to play this game (in it's current iteration), one must be somewhat intelligent. That being the case, we've all seen the value of the opposing sides views, even if we disagree, and are willing to "wait and see".

I'm not sure we even disagree on any significant level anymore - we all more or less know that there will be MANY changes, some we won't like, others we may, and that the setting we ALL love will be different, which causes even the 'pro-4e' crowd a certain amount of trepedition.

Until we know more, arguing over it is a total waste of time. Come this summer, we will be at each other's throats again... don't you worry. ;)
msatran
12-26-07, 04:33 PM Dude, it wasn't the holidays the moment that I saw the words "Flighty and Carefree" grant a Wisdom bonus.

The problem isn't us. It's that people at Wizards A) don't know how to write and B) seem to have the vocabulary of a six year old, or worse, they treat us like we have the vocabulary of six year olds, and will just nod dumbly and say "Yes, master" at everything they say.
MerrikCale
12-26-07, 09:02 PM Dude, it wasn't the holidays the moment that I saw the words "Flighty and Carefree" grant a Wisdom bonus.

The problem isn't us. It's that people at Wizards A) don't know how to write and B) seem to have the vocabulary of a six year old, or worse, they treat us like we have the vocabulary of six year olds, and will just nod dumbly and say "Yes, master" at everything they say.

I have a 6 year old who vocabulary beats mine sometimes
Dark Wizard
12-26-07, 11:28 PM I have a 6 year old who vocabulary beats mine sometimes

Kids these days.
Lord Karsus
12-27-07, 01:04 AM I have a 6 year old who vocabulary beats mine sometimes

-Teach him not to mess with daddy. That'll show him not to upstage you! Or her.
GothicDan
12-27-07, 01:19 AM I was trying not to comment on Merrik's vocabulary vs. that of a 6 year old's, myself.
GreenKnight
12-27-07, 07:43 AM I used to have an awesome vocabulary and spelling skills... at least until I discovered the internet, that is. My spelling has gone to hell since then, as I've been awash in a sea of "rouges", "pwns", and "roxxorz".
Stigger
12-27-07, 09:24 AM I've somehow managed to avoid the degradation of my spelling and vocabulary skillz... mostly anyway. :blink: :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reneshat 12-24-07, 02:12 AM	Just a couple of weeks ago, dissenting opinions regarding 4ed had various factions at each others throats. Recently however, everyone seems to be getting along more or less, apologizing when they go over the line, and commending people on good points even when they disagree. Is this the holiday spirit, or has everyone finally worked out all their various vitriol regarding 4ed? When you have a thread where Mr. Miscellany and Green Elven Vampire are more or less getting along, the end of the world must be nigh. What is going on around here?
Dark Wizard 12-24-07, 02:29 AM	Shhh... Don't disturb it by asking that question. Let it be. Enjoy it while it lasts. :P
johnkretzer 12-24-07, 03:23 AM	Just a couple of weeks ago, dissenting opinions regarding 4ed had various factions at each others throats. Recently however, everyone seems to be getting along more or less, apologizing when they go over the line, and commending people on good points even when they disagree. Is this the holiday spirit, or has everyone finally worked out all their various vitriol regarding 4ed? When you have a thread where Mr. Miscellany and Green Elven Vampire are more or less getting along, the end of the world must be nigh. What is going on around here? Lets be honest alot of fans get emotional about something they have dedicated 20 years of their lives to(not to mention alot of money). People are upset, but you can only remain upset for a certain amount of time. Then you can have a rational disscussions.
sfdragon 12-24-07, 04:01 AM	i expect it to start up again next year when the frcs comes out
GreenKnight 12-24-07, 05:00 AM	What is going on around here? It's the Christmas spirit. :)
Redrake 12-24-07, 06:45 AM	Indeed. Even in World War 1, in 1914 they had a break during Christmas. It was followed by 4 years of bloody massacre. :D
Rauric 12-24-07, 09:16 AM	I think it's great. Maybe people are getting used to each others stances on things. Change happens. People views and opinions can change a little with time, especially if they really try to understand other peoples points of view. I won't say I hate 4E or the 4E Realms (unless I pick it up and actually hate it) but I can understand peoples potential dislike for it. I believe in Houseruling though and using what I like and not using the rest. This is why the new changes of the FR don't bother me so much right away. If I want Mystra or the other gods in shes in. Same with NPCs. Done. That works for me though. That is why I am cool with everything. Evidently people are ticked that they may have to do this form of Housruling. They may still do it after the book comes out but they may be ticked during the wait. I also believe this is a dedicated, but small community of FR fans. This is my opinion. It is vocal but not as powerful in the consumer arena as it thinks it is sometimes. Same goes for the crew at Candlekeep. Sorry, this is just my opinion. I am think lots of people buy more books online or at retail stores than at their local gaming store and there are alot of FR fans that don't even really use the internet, or if they do they do not check out the forums. Anyway these are my general beliefs and where I am usually coming from when I post stuff. I don't think any of us should take ourselves or the game as seriously as we sometimes do, and if WOTC screws up certain things we like we are more than capable of fixing it. Again this is just how I feel. I just want to game and have fun, I won't sweat the little stuff. Then again I am a pretty good sleeper, the minute I hit the pillow I'm asleep. (My wife hates that).;)
msatran 12-24-07, 09:54 AM	Well, the problem is that I've reviewed the Dungeons and Dragon's 4th edition preview book. This will ruin every existing game. If any PC's WERE tieflings, and you ran a game with backstory, that backstory is now ruined. Dragonborn? WTF is this? This is out of theme and stupid. Suddenly this race existed where no such race existed before? And how would this race, in the Forgotten Realms, overcome the general prejudice against scaly folk like Yuan Ti? Hi, guys, I'm a Dragonborn Ranger. Gee, Mr, snake guy, you look like a Yuan Ti archer to me...Thunk...Thunk...Thunk... But I'm a...URK....(Body hits floor.) People assume that 10 int is average. But if you look at the world around you, an average int is pretty provincial and stupid. The transformations to tieflings beg all sorts of interesting questions... 4th edition transformations.... Tiefling: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! My a** flippin' hurts! Oh, my GOD! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Tail...what the (BLEEP) is this? My pants...I don't have any pants....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, my head! I have HORNS...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My helmet! My magic helmetttttttttttttttt! !#$$%%!@!!!!!!!... ...No...pants...(SOB!) Dwarves: The unbearded Dwarven hottie? Guys, there was one thing that was always cool. Dwarves have beards. Dwarf women who don't have beards need to shave them. The fact that both sexes had beards differentiated them out and made them cool. It's not the mechanics I don't like. It's the flavor. No half orcs? No half elves? I've seen a glass that was half-full. This is more than half empty.
Rauric 12-24-07, 10:20 AM	Gotcha. I understand not liking the fluff they put out. Though I figure changing it to suit my likes won't be all that difficult. Plus we don't know yet how they will incorporate Dragonborn and Tieflings into FR and Eberron. To me everthing in the core book is just that, core. Campaign Settings cn always work it so they have different flavor. :D
MerrikCale 12-24-07, 10:45 AM	I think it's great. not me, I love a good throwdown
MerrikCale 12-24-07, 10:49 AM	Well, the problem is that I've reviewed the Dungeons and Dragon's 4th edition preview book. This will ruin every existing game. If any PC's WERE tieflings, and you ran a game with backstory, that backstory is now ruined. I think you are overstating a bit. Tieflings from the Realms remain the same. There has alway been a difference between core and the existing settings. I do not believe they will kill off all the elven sub-groups or rename moon elves eladrins either.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-24-07, 11:03 AM	4th edition transformations.... Tiefling: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! My a** flippin' hurts! Oh, my GOD! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Tail...what the (BLEEP) is this? My pants...I don't have any pants....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, my head! I have HORNS...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My helmet! My magic helmetttttttttttttttt! !#$$%%!@!!!!!!!... ...No...pants...(SOB!) That was funny. :rofl: By the way, I wouldn't assume that the new 4E races are ONLY for core, as Rich has said that all the core races will be used in the new Realms setting. It is true that gold elves and such aren't going to be called "eladrins", though. And of course, you don't have to use what you don't like!
Faraer 12-24-07, 11:07 AM	People are upset, but you can only remain upset for a certain amount of time.It looks like the same information-release policy as with the Dragon/Dungeon cancellation.
Rauric 12-24-07, 12:57 PM	That was funny. :rofl: By the way, I wouldn't assume that the new 4E races are ONLY for core, as Rich has said that all the core races will be used in the new Realms setting. It is true that gold elves and such aren't going to be called "eladrins", though. And of course, you don't have to use what you don't like! I just meant that the Core Fluff will change to fit a setting. Dragonborn night be introduced as something brand new while the tieflings will be worked in to fit FR lore. The dragonborn may suffer some serious prejudice in some areas. Good times. Plus that last statement is what I am all about. Use what you want. Can the rest.
Kenzuki 12-24-07, 01:23 PM	Hey, don't be hitting on the tieflings now. One of my favorite characters was a tiefling monk who formerly served Bhaal as an assassin. They can be very fun to play. Though I do think that tiefling in the movie was a Draenei ripoff.
GreenKnight 12-24-07, 04:17 PM	No half elves? Half-Elves are in. It's just that the paragraph or two they had on them in Races and Classes was cut out.
MerrikCale 12-24-07, 04:28 PM	Half-Elves are in. It's just that the paragraph or two they had on them in Races and Classes was cut out. what was in Races & Classes does not mean it will be in the first PHB
GreenKnight 12-24-07, 04:36 PM	From what I hear, they weren't in Races & Classes. :P But I think it's pretty certain that Half-Elves will be in the first PHB. Half-Elves have been mentioned from pretty early on in the playtests and reports alongside elves, eladrin, and others which we know are in the first PHB.
johnkretzer 12-24-07, 05:09 PM	Hey, don't be hitting on the tieflings now. One of my favorite characters was a tiefling monk who formerly served Bhaal as an assassin. They can be very fun to play. Though I do think that tiefling in the movie was a Draenei ripoff. That is my problem ALL tiefling are now going to be like those their is no more varience. Personaly I like what Bruce Cordell was orginaly going to design for the race. With all the changes my past two tiefling characters can't exist as teiflings are being presented in core.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 04:10 AM	-Everyone is getting along better, eh? You all have me to thank for that. Thank you, thank you... :bravo:
GreenKnight 12-25-07, 04:28 AM	That is my problem ALL tiefling are now going to be like those their is no more varience. Personaly I like what Bruce Cordell was orginaly going to design for the race. With all the changes my past two tiefling characters can't exist as teiflings are being presented in core. Appearance doesn't have to be tied to mechanics. For instance, in Ravenloft, the Half-Orc became the Caliban, which looked pretty much however you wanted it to look. There's an NPC in Ravenloft, for instance, who looks more like a Rakshasa then a Half-Orc, yet that's the racial entry he uses. Just because the PHB says that Tieflings look like this, doesn't mean that they must look like that all the time. And just because their origin in the core setting is one thing, it doesn't mean their origin in other settings can't be something else. There's a difference between fluff and crunch. And a Tiefling with smaller horns, or hooves, or without a tail can hardly be said to be something that'll break the system or anything of the sort. Hell, when 4E comes around, I'll be using both Tieflings AND Dragonborn to play the role of the Caliban in Ravenloft. How hard would it be to make a Tiefling variant in comparison to that?
Rauric 12-25-07, 06:30 AM	Maybe you will still be able to customize your tiefling some. I understand how this one can be a pain though. It would be great if they came up with a good loophole to work out the kinks.
Redrake 12-25-07, 01:25 PM	I very much doubt I would like the idea of tieflings without a wider range of customization. It's not like they are all coming from the same kind of fiends.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-25-07, 02:27 PM	But remember, the 4E tiefling is supposed to have a different history than tieflings in the past did, anyway. They are now a true-breeding race, not humans who've manifested their fiendish heritage. Not saying you shouldn't customize them, though, if that's what you really want to do.:)
johnkretzer 12-25-07, 02:32 PM	Appearance doesn't have to be tied to mechanics. For instance, in Ravenloft, the Half-Orc became the Caliban, which looked pretty much however you wanted it to look. There's an NPC in Ravenloft, for instance, who looks more like a Rakshasa then a Half-Orc, yet that's the racial entry he uses. Not just talking about appearence here. I am talking about heritage. All Tieflings are the result of a curse placed on human due to their traficking with devils. They all diabolic in nature. That completely destroys one of my character's concept. Just because the PHB says that Tieflings look like this, doesn't mean that they must look like that all the time. And just because their origin in the core setting is one thing, it doesn't mean their origin in other settings can't be something else. There's a difference between fluff and crunch. And a Tiefling with smaller horns, or hooves, or without a tail can hardly be said to be something that'll break the system or anything of the sort. Hell, when 4E comes around, I'll be using both Tieflings AND Dragonborn to play the role of the Caliban in Ravenloft. How hard would it be to make a Tiefling variant in comparison to that? Sure you are right...to a point. mechanics that support flavor. Which I had to a degree in 3.x now I have to rewrite flavor...and probably mechanics as well. Like I have to do with elves now as I don't feel high elves should be lumped in with gold elves or wild elves. So with all the flavor changes that I have to recreate mechanics to fit in why should I convert? I mean really this edition changes seems to me more about getting rid of the old fans then getting new ones because I see nothing about the old lore that would keep new people away.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 11:10 AM	Let's talk about what WotC HAS shown and not "What WotC MIGHT" do. I know that's pretty frustrating for me, when I'm trying to discuss what we HAVE seen.
MarkusTay63 12-26-07, 03:40 PM	It isn't the holidays... In order to play this game (in it's current iteration), one must be somewhat intelligent. That being the case, we've all seen the value of the opposing sides views, even if we disagree, and are willing to "wait and see". I'm not sure we even disagree on any significant level anymore - we all more or less know that there will be MANY changes, some we won't like, others we may, and that the setting we ALL love will be different, which causes even the 'pro-4e' crowd a certain amount of trepedition. Until we know more, arguing over it is a total waste of time. Come this summer, we will be at each other's throats again... don't you worry. ;)
msatran 12-26-07, 04:33 PM	Dude, it wasn't the holidays the moment that I saw the words "Flighty and Carefree" grant a Wisdom bonus. The problem isn't us. It's that people at Wizards A) don't know how to write and B) seem to have the vocabulary of a six year old, or worse, they treat us like we have the vocabulary of six year olds, and will just nod dumbly and say "Yes, master" at everything they say.
MerrikCale 12-26-07, 09:02 PM	Dude, it wasn't the holidays the moment that I saw the words "Flighty and Carefree" grant a Wisdom bonus. The problem isn't us. It's that people at Wizards A) don't know how to write and B) seem to have the vocabulary of a six year old, or worse, they treat us like we have the vocabulary of six year olds, and will just nod dumbly and say "Yes, master" at everything they say. I have a 6 year old who vocabulary beats mine sometimes
Dark Wizard 12-26-07, 11:28 PM	I have a 6 year old who vocabulary beats mine sometimes Kids these days.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:04 AM	I have a 6 year old who vocabulary beats mine sometimes -Teach him not to mess with daddy. That'll show him not to upstage you! Or her.
GothicDan 12-27-07, 01:19 AM	I was trying not to comment on Merrik's vocabulary vs. that of a 6 year old's, myself.
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 07:43 AM	I used to have an awesome vocabulary and spelling skills... at least until I discovered the internet, that is. My spelling has gone to hell since then, as I've been awash in a sea of "rouges", "pwns", and "roxxorz".
Stigger 12-27-07, 09:24 AM	I've somehow managed to avoid the degradation of my spelling and vocabulary skillz... mostly anyway. :blink: :D