What was the Dawn Cataclysm? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What was the Dawn Cataclysm? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Addi83
10-01-03, 07:16 AM I was just wondering, I´ve seen numerous referances to this event, but no details of what it was, or what happened, other than that it was some failed attempt of Lathander to further the cause of good, but that it failed misarably. Can anyone tell me the specifics?
Janor
10-01-03, 08:04 AM I know only a few bits too, but I think i got the main part of it:

As the good of pure goodness Lathander realized, that the world would be better if all evil were destroyed. The good gods work together, but the evil ones are their own worst enemys, so why don't destroy them one by one?
It should be not so dificult a task but somehow ist didn't worked the way he would like it.
What hapened exactly I don't know, but at the end of that all, several god lay dead and not all of them evil ones. One of them was the companion of Helm, what is the cause he distrusts Lathander...
Addi83
10-01-03, 08:14 AM Thats pretty much what I knew, but thanks.
Herr Doktor
10-01-03, 11:17 AM From the Forgotten Realms Mailing List FAQ
2.8. Where can I get more information about the Dawn Cataclysm?

Nowhere, at present. It's one of the abiding mysteries of the Realms. Sorry we can't be more help with this one.� :-)

[Steven Schend, in a post to Realms-L, said that to his knowledge, there are no plans to expand on the Dawn Cataclysm in any further Realms products.]

Many list members have speculated, though.

Simon Gibbs does a good job of summarizing what�s known:

A quick note on the date of the Dawn Cataclysm: it's a perennial thorn for those interested in Realms Timelines. Perhaps the most definitive stuff I have seen on this topic came from Steven Schend in response to a request for a timeline of the Dawn Cataclysm, including the birth dates and locations of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, and related material.

To soothe the debate, Steve Schend wrote: <quote>

Not to disappoint, but this will probably never happen, simply because it's irrelevant to mortal Realms history. The Dawn Cataclysm occurs only among the gods and has no impact whatsoever on the mortal plane of the Realms save one: A schism forms in the faith of Tyche and the church splits into the faiths of Beshaba and Tymora. This happens somewhere between the height of the Netheril Empire and the beginning of Dalereckoning.�

I'm not narrowing it down further than that right now, and frankly, I've no desire to do so, as it should be a vague time at best. As for the births of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul, I've even less interest in dredging those topics up; suffice it to say that they may have existed long ago as mortals and at some point in the dim and misty past they became the gods they were.

They all died or/and lost their divinity in the Time of Troubles, and no matter how many schemes may be hatched to try and bring them back to godhood, they will forever canonically remain dead issues.

</end quote>

[Note well that Steven prefaces this posting (which included much stuff on future products on Netheril) with: "I'll start out with a disclaimer that states that none of these ideas discussed are officially part of any product idea or schedule at this point. It's more of a peek inside my head as to opinions, musings, and some of the stories and lore I'd like to layer onto Netheril. These may become products, plot hooks or ideas in other products, magazine articles, or even short stories at some point. Who knows? They're just ideas & pinions as of right now...."]

As a final comment, to quote Tom Costa of the list: "The date is uncertain and TSR has said they will not date godly FR events that took place out of mortal eyes, _which I think is fine_." Good words to heed, perhaps.

Paul Hoyak added:

For those with some interest in the Dawn Cataclysm (though I am not one of them) there WAS an official date(s) given for the Dawn Cataclysm; however, since it was found on the Forgotten Realms Conspectus (this is the first published mention of the Dawn Cataclysm) the date is definitely questionable:� c. 161 DR: The Dawn Cataclysm.

Jason Hatter rebutted:

Something for the Dawn Cataclysm portion: it definitely happened before 134DR, since at that time Azuth was no longer Magister, and he either was a Magister at the time of the DC, or became one after it....either of which is before the date mentioned in SotM....

2.8.1.What gods existed at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm?

Answer: We don�t know for sure:

Tavis King compiled a partial list:

Amaunator, Jannath, Jergal, Kozah, Moander, Mystryl(Mystra), Selune, Shar, Targus, and Tyche are listed in the Netheril Boxed set.� Lathander must also have existed if he started the cataclysm.

The Tear of Selune (artifact of Selune, created during the Dawn Cataclysm at the death of Tyche, lost during the fall of Zhentil Keep) (PGttFR 125, 126) (VGtaTM 118)

The Scepter of Savras (created by Azuth as a prison for Savras during the Dawn Cataclysm) (VGtaTM 113)
That's all I could find.
Alac Luin
10-01-03, 11:46 AM Originally posted by Herr Doktor
From the Forgotten Realms Mailing List FAQ

That's all I could find.

That probobly is all that ever was said, sounds good.
Gotta get myself on that mailing list!!:)
Addi83
10-01-03, 11:56 AM Well thanks, I didn´t expect that the answer to my question would be "there is no answer, and thats deliberate" but at least I can stop looking for info on it.

Thanks
Alisttair
10-01-03, 12:20 PM If Lathander was part of it, I doubt Amaunator was as well for Lathander is Amaunator reborn. So it most likely came "after" Netheril time or some such. Only my opinion of course, based on the Amaunator/Lathander situation.
Alac Luin
10-01-03, 12:41 PM Originally posted by Alisttair
Only my opinion of course, based on the Amaunator/Lathander situation.

Of course you know that whole thing IS just speculation, and the compleat details are not worked out.
In a nutshell, one god/dess can still exist as an aspect of another god/dess they are part of exists.
Alisttair
10-01-03, 12:49 PM Of course, but it's all one big complicated matter anyways. I don't see why they don't plan on clearing such a thing up once and for all. Let Ed Greenwood make a web enhancement on this or some such I say.
Herr Doktor
10-01-03, 12:55 PM Originally posted by Alisttair
Of course, but it's all one big complicated matter anyways. I don't see why they don't plan on clearing such a thing up once and for all. Let Ed Greenwood make a web enhancement on this or some such I say. Yes, it is rather frustrating puzzling this out.

A clarification would be most welcome... If not the date when the Dawn Cataclysm occured perhaps just a good block of text describing just what happened.

Perhaps it is none of the players business to know when and where and how, but for the person who is running these gods and goddesses and the realms they watch over it may be useful information.
Alisttair
10-01-03, 12:58 PM Originally posted by Herr Doktor
Yes, it is rather frustrating puzzling this out.

A clarification would be most welcome... If not the date when the Dawn Cataclysm occured perhaps just a good block of text describing just what happened.

Perhaps it is none of the players business to know when and where and how, but for the person who is running these gods and goddesses and the realms they watch over it may be useful information.

Exactly. And besdies, it's mucho important for all us FR fanatics to learn every little detail of realms history, especially such grand events, be it mortal or divine (on a side note, I find many divine events more interesting than mortal ones).
Alac Luin
10-01-03, 01:03 PM Originally posted by Alisttair
(on a side note, I find many divine events more interesting than mortal ones).

You are not the only one :) :invasion:
Alisttair
10-01-03, 01:28 PM Which is why the Faiths and Pantheons book and the Avatar novels fascinate me so much :)
Kuje31
10-01-03, 02:16 PM Originally posted by Alisttair
Which is why the Faiths and Pantheons book and the Avatar novels fascinate me so much :)

If you like Faiths & Pantheons, you really should try to find the 2e trilogy instead. Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihumen Deities.

Those three are muct better books and contain A LOT more info. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Addi83 10-01-03, 07:16 AM	I was just wondering, I´ve seen numerous referances to this event, but no details of what it was, or what happened, other than that it was some failed attempt of Lathander to further the cause of good, but that it failed misarably. Can anyone tell me the specifics?
Janor 10-01-03, 08:04 AM	I know only a few bits too, but I think i got the main part of it: As the good of pure goodness Lathander realized, that the world would be better if all evil were destroyed. The good gods work together, but the evil ones are their own worst enemys, so why don't destroy them one by one? It should be not so dificult a task but somehow ist didn't worked the way he would like it. What hapened exactly I don't know, but at the end of that all, several god lay dead and not all of them evil ones. One of them was the companion of Helm, what is the cause he distrusts Lathander...
Addi83 10-01-03, 08:14 AM	Thats pretty much what I knew, but thanks.
Herr Doktor 10-01-03, 11:17 AM	From the Forgotten Realms Mailing List FAQ 2.8. Where can I get more information about the Dawn Cataclysm? Nowhere, at present. It's one of the abiding mysteries of the Realms. Sorry we can't be more help with this one.� :-) [Steven Schend, in a post to Realms-L, said that to his knowledge, there are no plans to expand on the Dawn Cataclysm in any further Realms products.] Many list members have speculated, though. Simon Gibbs does a good job of summarizing what�s known: A quick note on the date of the Dawn Cataclysm: it's a perennial thorn for those interested in Realms Timelines. Perhaps the most definitive stuff I have seen on this topic came from Steven Schend in response to a request for a timeline of the Dawn Cataclysm, including the birth dates and locations of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, and related material. To soothe the debate, Steve Schend wrote: <quote> Not to disappoint, but this will probably never happen, simply because it's irrelevant to mortal Realms history. The Dawn Cataclysm occurs only among the gods and has no impact whatsoever on the mortal plane of the Realms save one: A schism forms in the faith of Tyche and the church splits into the faiths of Beshaba and Tymora. This happens somewhere between the height of the Netheril Empire and the beginning of Dalereckoning.� I'm not narrowing it down further than that right now, and frankly, I've no desire to do so, as it should be a vague time at best. As for the births of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul, I've even less interest in dredging those topics up; suffice it to say that they may have existed long ago as mortals and at some point in the dim and misty past they became the gods they were. They all died or/and lost their divinity in the Time of Troubles, and no matter how many schemes may be hatched to try and bring them back to godhood, they will forever canonically remain dead issues. </end quote> [Note well that Steven prefaces this posting (which included much stuff on future products on Netheril) with: "I'll start out with a disclaimer that states that none of these ideas discussed are officially part of any product idea or schedule at this point. It's more of a peek inside my head as to opinions, musings, and some of the stories and lore I'd like to layer onto Netheril. These may become products, plot hooks or ideas in other products, magazine articles, or even short stories at some point. Who knows? They're just ideas & pinions as of right now...."] As a final comment, to quote Tom Costa of the list: "The date is uncertain and TSR has said they will not date godly FR events that took place out of mortal eyes, _which I think is fine_." Good words to heed, perhaps. Paul Hoyak added: For those with some interest in the Dawn Cataclysm (though I am not one of them) there WAS an official date(s) given for the Dawn Cataclysm; however, since it was found on the Forgotten Realms Conspectus (this is the first published mention of the Dawn Cataclysm) the date is definitely questionable:� c. 161 DR: The Dawn Cataclysm. Jason Hatter rebutted: Something for the Dawn Cataclysm portion: it definitely happened before 134DR, since at that time Azuth was no longer Magister, and he either was a Magister at the time of the DC, or became one after it....either of which is before the date mentioned in SotM.... 2.8.1.What gods existed at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm? Answer: We don�t know for sure: Tavis King compiled a partial list: Amaunator, Jannath, Jergal, Kozah, Moander, Mystryl(Mystra), Selune, Shar, Targus, and Tyche are listed in the Netheril Boxed set.� Lathander must also have existed if he started the cataclysm. The Tear of Selune (artifact of Selune, created during the Dawn Cataclysm at the death of Tyche, lost during the fall of Zhentil Keep) (PGttFR 125, 126) (VGtaTM 118) The Scepter of Savras (created by Azuth as a prison for Savras during the Dawn Cataclysm) (VGtaTM 113) That's all I could find.
Alac Luin 10-01-03, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor From the Forgotten Realms Mailing List FAQ That's all I could find. That probobly is all that ever was said, sounds good. Gotta get myself on that mailing list!!:)
Addi83 10-01-03, 11:56 AM	Well thanks, I didn´t expect that the answer to my question would be "there is no answer, and thats deliberate" but at least I can stop looking for info on it. Thanks
Alisttair 10-01-03, 12:20 PM	If Lathander was part of it, I doubt Amaunator was as well for Lathander is Amaunator reborn. So it most likely came "after" Netheril time or some such. Only my opinion of course, based on the Amaunator/Lathander situation.
Alac Luin 10-01-03, 12:41 PM	Originally posted by Alisttair Only my opinion of course, based on the Amaunator/Lathander situation. Of course you know that whole thing IS just speculation, and the compleat details are not worked out. In a nutshell, one god/dess can still exist as an aspect of another god/dess they are part of exists.
Alisttair 10-01-03, 12:49 PM	Of course, but it's all one big complicated matter anyways. I don't see why they don't plan on clearing such a thing up once and for all. Let Ed Greenwood make a web enhancement on this or some such I say.
Herr Doktor 10-01-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Alisttair Of course, but it's all one big complicated matter anyways. I don't see why they don't plan on clearing such a thing up once and for all. Let Ed Greenwood make a web enhancement on this or some such I say. Yes, it is rather frustrating puzzling this out. A clarification would be most welcome... If not the date when the Dawn Cataclysm occured perhaps just a good block of text describing just what happened. Perhaps it is none of the players business to know when and where and how, but for the person who is running these gods and goddesses and the realms they watch over it may be useful information.
Alisttair 10-01-03, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor Yes, it is rather frustrating puzzling this out. A clarification would be most welcome... If not the date when the Dawn Cataclysm occured perhaps just a good block of text describing just what happened. Perhaps it is none of the players business to know when and where and how, but for the person who is running these gods and goddesses and the realms they watch over it may be useful information. Exactly. And besdies, it's mucho important for all us FR fanatics to learn every little detail of realms history, especially such grand events, be it mortal or divine (on a side note, I find many divine events more interesting than mortal ones).
Alac Luin 10-01-03, 01:03 PM	Originally posted by Alisttair (on a side note, I find many divine events more interesting than mortal ones). You are not the only one :) :invasion:
Alisttair 10-01-03, 01:28 PM	Which is why the Faiths and Pantheons book and the Avatar novels fascinate me so much :)
Kuje31 10-01-03, 02:16 PM	Originally posted by Alisttair Which is why the Faiths and Pantheons book and the Avatar novels fascinate me so much :) If you like Faiths & Pantheons, you really should try to find the 2e trilogy instead. Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihumen Deities. Those three are muct better books and contain A LOT more info. :)